>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's m challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Christine, the Director of

CAFOD which is the Catholic Agency for Overseas

Development. I love talking to Christine about

her, journey to being director of CAFOD but also

about how she stays herself. So, Christine, did

you always have an involvement in church?

>> Christine: I think like most people has had on and off. I

mean, I think in my teenage years I was, I was

definitely kind of quite rebellious. I was born

into a regular cradle Catholic family, although my

mum was, she had to become a Catholic in order to

marry my dad. So she kind of quite liked to remind

us that she was a convert. And, she was much more,

Much more active to some extent in church, but in

a very, very ordinary sort of way. I mean, she

would help people do food for neighbours. We had

an elderly neighbour that came in for his tea

three times a week for what felt like centuries,

you know. so it was a very ordinary kind of church

upbringing. I think when I was a teenager I was

like, what's all this about? My dad had lost his

job. There was all sorts of kind of, you know, you

go through those stages where you wonder what's

going on in life and, sort of rebelled a bit. And

then I had this friend in school said, well, we

have this group called Young Christian Students

and we meet in the boys school over the road. So,

okay, great, you so. But that. So that kind of was

less, It wasn't a prayer group or anything like

that. It was a kind of discussion group as, YCS

uses the see, judge, act methodology. So there was

an element of kind of like reflecting, but it

wasn't overtly sort of, you know, the Holy Joe's

as you talk about it, but that, that Got me into

kind of deepening my faith a bit more. But when I,

When I was a student, I never really kind of got

involved in like, chaplaincy stuff. So I've always

been. I felt, you know, my faith is kind of

strong, but hasn't necessarily always been

articulated in a church capacity. I have been

lucky, though, that in a lot of my adult life I've

been in parishes where I felt really nourished and

encouraged.

>> Julia: So what did joining the Young Christian Students

teach you about faith and leadership?

>> Christine: It taught me quite a lot about faith being active,

that you're part of history, you're part of

something bigger. you're meeting people from other

YCS groups and even at, ah, some point going on

like an international conference and sort of like,

oh, oh, there's a whole world here, was really.

That was really interesting leadership. It wasn't

an explicit sense of leadership training, but I

kind of think back to the things that I did. We

would organise retreats or conferences, you know,

trips, as well as the sort of like the weekly

meetings and stuff. So, you know, after a few

years then taking a role in leadership and

thinking, I think back now and I think, well,

yeah, that's where my kind of organisational

skills and capacity sort of like, was honed from

an extraordinarily early age. Yeah.

>> Julia: I was thinking about how at university was, kind

of being a cradle Catholic myself, I kind of had

that experience of church was what we did. We went

to church on a Sunday and it was only at, ah,

university that I kind of started to actively

choose my own faith in that, I had the choice to

whether I was going to do something else on a

Sunday or go to church or not. Did you have a

similar experience?

>> Christine: Yeah, I think most people do, don't they? You

know, when you, when you stop being taken, it's a

bit like the dentists, you know, when you stop

being taken, you have to kind of make a decision

to put yourself through it. And I did once go for

16 years between dental appointments. But that's

an aside. But, you know, and I think there is

that, ah, sense in which you kind of think, yeah,

I may have making a conscious decision about this.

I think it also does depend upon what the nature

of the options are. I've been in places where,

frankly, there's no point going to that place that

gives me a theological crisis, you know, and then.

And then others, other churches and other

situations have been really great and really deep

and meaningful and nurturing.

>> Julia: So you studied philosophy and international

relations how did you end up studying that?

>> Christine: Oh, totally accidentally. I was working for the

Young Christian Students for a year with my friend

Sarah Bull, who is the other worker. And she was

doing it as a gap year before going off to uni to

study. She was clear what she wanted to do. I had

no idea. And there was one day where she said to

me, like, you know, I'm the one that's going off

to uni, but you're the one that's reading all the,

kind of like the detail, you know, the, the

Marxist books and the political analysis. You

know, why, why don't you go off to uni? I was

like, I never thought about it before. So she

encouraged me and helped me think about it. And

North Staffs Poly was was offering this degree

where you choices. So it's politics, philosophy,

economics, international relations. I had no idea

kind of what they were. But I, I thought, I

thought I wanted to do something kind of vaguely

political because I wanted to change the world.

Don't we all? And the philosophy side really

attracted me because it was just going that bit

deeper. It was kind of, it wasn't just about

political machinations. It was actually about,

well, where do policies come from? Where do

perspectives come from? How do you, how do you see

the world rooted in, in the kind of, you know,

philosophical, kind of analysis really. And and I

guess that was possibly as near to sort of ethics

as I could possibly as I could get to. But yeah,

it was really, it was fascinating. I really loved

it.

>> Julia: So how did you go from that to then end up the

Justice and Peace Coordinator in Liverpool?

>> Christine: well, I went back home, finished uni. I mean I was

very lucky in those days. I'd had a grant so I

wasn't like absolutely up to my eyeballs in debt.

But I didn't have any money and I went home and

looked around for some jobs. I did some like,

temping work, some secretarial work. And I just

saw this job advertising the paper of kind of like

the, an assistant. And I went along and they, they

said, you know, I was massively overqualified as

someone with a degree. But it's like, well, I've

never really, you know, had a proper job. I've

always kind of like worked in various things, but

in an office situation. Anyway, they took a punt

on me and the rest is history. And the guy I

worked with, Liam Black, who was the main justice

and Peace officer, I was just the assistant. So in

theory I was the one that did the newsletter and

kind of like sorted everything out and the

accounts. But he encouraged me to also get

involved in stuff. So I was doing like welfare

rights training and doing some community

development work and drawing on my experience with

with the ycs and getting to know communities and

working with them and. And you know I admire him

hugely because he again was someone who saw my

potential and helped me grow. He wasn't someone

who was so you know, anxious that he'd, he'd keep

this woman kind of like aside. It was a real

partnership. Yeah.

>> Julia: So how did you get from Justice and Peace

Assistant to Director of CAFOD?

>> Christine: Well, so I'd been Liverpool GMP for a couple of

years and one of the things that I had to do was

organise the national justice and Peace

conference. Liverpool 1988. And that gives my age

away. Oh no. Anyway, in 1988, back in the days

when we had phones with, with circular things and

cables and typewriters. anyway, I organised, I, I

was part of organising the national justice and

Peace Conference and that was held in Liverpool.

And through that I got to meet Mildred Neville, Ed

O'Connell, the whole kind of like national justice

and peace kind of groups and amazing people, Oh

yeah, Margaret Walsh from the Hope Community. So

that helped sort of like connect me with, with

people. And I remember getting a phone call from

Julian Filochowski when we were organising the

conference saying you've got to have a workshop on

HIV in Africa please. And I was like, oh yeah,

okay. You know, and I'd known people who had been

affected by HIV here in England and I hadn't kind

of like connected with the international thing at

all. So, so I was like, yeah, okay. You know, I

didn't realise that that was actually quite a big

issue. so. But I was like, oh yeah, no, that's

really interesting. So I suppose we just got to

know people through that. Anyway, after a couple

of years Liam moved on and I applied for the job

and didn't get it. And it was a, it was, it was a

gut wrenching thing because I, I just kind of

thought well you know, this, this is just a great

environment and like I could, I could do Liam's

job. And you know, I was absolutely stunned

really. And then I found out that Ellen Teague was

going off on maternity leave and so Cafford were

looking for a maternity cover and as a campaign

coordinator. So I came down to London and you

know, kind of bite eyed, bushy tailed and had an

interview with Julian. And somehow or other, they

obviously confused me with someone who was

competent and they gave me the job. My poor

mother. I remember that. Come m back. I'm moving

to London next week. Mum know and I mean now I'm.

I've got a daughter who's 20 and I kind of think

what did I put my mother through? And yet she was

constantly amazing. so that was my. I got the job

at CAFOD which I did for a year and then moved on.

>> Julia: But it sounds like you had a plan of like you were

going to go for this coordinator role and God shut

that down and then opened up the next opportunity.

>> Christine: It was, yeah. I mean it didn't feel like that at

the time.

>> Julia: I don't think it ever feels like that.

>> Christine: No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. But I remember

getting a letter from one of the members of the

Justice Peace Commission who were, who were my

boss, Celia. And she, it was like kind of four

lines on a piece of paper and she just said it

feels awful now but this is the best thing that

could ever happen to you and you are amazing and

never forget it and I will follow your career with

interest. I mean she's, she's no longer with us

but I remember feeling. Oh yeah. But it was, you

know, it was that opportunity. I mean it's sad for

me in many respects because there's always a part

of me that regrets not living in Liverpool

because, of where I'm from and I've spent more of

my life away from Liverpool than in Liverpool. But

the, the opportunities that. It sort of made me

open my eyes and it made me kind of think well

what. What do I need to do? And I mean I wouldn't

say it was a plan particularly, but it was the

sort of. It was like. I suppose it opened that,

that closing down of that door made me kind of

think oh, okay, so what am I going to do then? You

know what, you know, I have to think. I have to

think a bit more widely and, and I suppose I'd.

I'd come from very ordinary working class

background. I never thought I'd go to. I didn't go

to Union, which were poly, but I never thought I'd

get a degree. and you know, again, like looking

back on my life now, I've, you know, I've, I've. I

did more studies. I got awarded an honorary

doctorate. You know, I'm director of CAFOD I mean

it's just, it's a Job. It's a life that my 16 or

even 18 year old self would just not have

comprehended.

>> Julia: Well, saying about CAFOD I was working for CAFOD

at the time you became the director of CAFOD And I

just remember there was a lot of excitement to

have a woman as a director. and I think people

always are referring back to how worn CAFOD was

set up. It was set up by women, but then it only

had men as directors. Did that put a lot of

pressure on you or did it give you a lot of

excitement?

>> Christine: Well, it's both. I mean, yes, I think I did feel

the weight of the expectations, because I think

there was a sense from some people who had known

me before as this kind of like, you know, mouthy

firebrand in the 1980s and obviously I'd known

Julian. So in some respects I had been kind of

embedded a little bit in CAFOD's history. So I

kind of felt that sense of expectation from some

people and at the same time being conscious that

I'm here to do a job, I'm here to run an

organisation and I'm not here to be the, the woman

on the barricades sort of thing. I mean. And yeah,

it was really exciting to be the first woman

because I think as an organisation that's founded

by the most amazing women, completely different

class to me it was really exciting, you know, and

it's something that I tell all the time in storeys

about the fact that you know, women founded it,

women got it organised, they raised all the money

and then the boys said, okay, thanks, you know,

we'll take it from here. 60 years later, you know,

I don't, you know, I don't want that to sound like

it's men versus women, but it was, there was a, I

think a great recognition of the fact that CAFOD

as a lay led organisation, I know female founded

organisation is an important history and because

the, the story of women's contribution to how the

world is a better place is a story that's so

rarely told. And I think back right through my

life and of course there are amazing people like

Oscar Romero and the Jesuits and all, you know,

and Steve Biko and all sorts of people. And at the

same time the people that I've met in communities

have by and large been the women, you know,

whether they're in church based situations or in

ordinary secular communities, by and large the

real leaders, the real energy behind everything

kind of comes from the women. And that's not to

say men don't do anything. But it is about saying

we actually need to tell those stories. We need to

recognise the hairstory, not just the history.

>> Julia: So for those who are listening, who don't know

what CAFOD is, what is CAFOD and what do you do as

director?

>> Christine: CAFOD's the official agency of the Catholic Church

here in England and Wales for development and

emergency relief. and as its name suggests, we

provide support to, a raft of local partners to

help build and strengthen the ability of those

partners to make a difference in their lives, to

build sustainable and lasting development. And

that might be through. It might be through

business, jobs, all sorts of different ways in

which we're supporting people. And then we also do

emergency relief and emergency response in times

of great need, where people literally need to have

their lives saved right through aid. And, we're

part of the global Caritas family, so it means

we've got, We've got a wide reach. As director,

you know, the book stops with me, I suppose I'm

the figurehead kind of figure, I suppose. but it's

an amazing team of people who work incredibly hard

to do fantastic work around the world and to raise

a lot of money and also to bring about advocacy

and bring about advocating change in policy and

help the Catholic community here in England and

Wales put their faith into practise, to deepen

that faith, to deepen that sense of understanding

of our responsibility and our relationship with

our neighbours and to, make a difference, really.

As director, I often think I spend most of my time

in meetings, writing reports, assessing, you know,

kind of looking at, Looking at statistics and

KPIs. But I also have the most incredible job,

which enables me to meet with politicians, visit

projects around the world, get inspired by. By

people, try to influence, engage and support with

the. Where the church is. be that voice, Be that

voice of those, you know, millions of people,

millions of Catholics around the world that are

really concerned about making a difference.

>> Julia: So, as the director of CAFOD, are you often

involved in conversations about leadership in the

church?

>> Christine: I'm often involved in conversations about

leadership in church settings, yeah. and I think

there's the conversations about leadership in the

church, they tend to be often kind of people's

individual kind of conversations. But, yeah,

there's a growing concern about making sure that

leadership in the church in church settings is

respected, is growing, is much more

professionalised than it was when I first started.

You know, there's a real sense of, you know, the

church being a professional Employer treating

people well, making sure that we run things well

and we, we do things in to high standards.

>> Julia: Yeah, I definitely say it's not perfect, but it's

definitely a better place of where you think of

the old vision of like, like one woman being the

parish secretary, running the whole church, like

doing all the admin in the background. is there

any frustrations for you when you hear about

people talking about the conversation about women

in roles in the Church?

>> Christine: Well, I think the first one is often that the

contribution of women isn't, isn't recognised. I

think the other aspect for me is that when there

are conversations about women and the church,

women's leadership in the Church, it often comes

down to can we be priests or not? And, and I

totally respect women who feel called to that

ministry and feel frustrated by it. But the

contribution of women in the church and the

leadership of women in the church goes way beyond

priesthood. I mean, and I think I find the whole

clerical culture quite frustrating and that

applies to both men and women. And, and I think

there's quite a lot of priests who find it very

frustrating as well because they kind of feel

themselves constrained in a box and, and kind of

what do, what do lay people kind of put on them?

So clericalism isn't the preserve of the clerics.

Clericalism actually, at its worst is, is, is lay

people who refuse to take their baptismal promises

seriously. You know, he's, oh, well, you know,

Father, you know, kind of you. So I, I, I do find

that quite frustrating at times, because I,

personally don't feel called to priesthood. I kind

of feel that when you have conversations with

people about being a leader in the Church, that

priesthood is the only model that often is there

in the minds. And it's like, well, actually, you

know, look around you. There's so much that's

going on. There's so much that's been done and

being delivered as the Church. You know, women are

still on the altars, women are doing all sorts of,

all sorts of things and it's almost like that's

never quite recognised. So there's an element of

frustration there. But I do understand where

people come from and I do appreciate it. I don't

want to sound like I'm anti.

>> Julia: No, I think I was just thinking also, yeah, I

agree about the frustration of the role of women,

but I also think of it for the men who don't end

up being priests, it's the same as well.

>> Christine: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

>> Julia: So what does being a lay leader mean to you?

>> Christine: Well, I think it means taking your responsibility

seriously. You know, I think it means stuff's got

to get done. We've just got to roll up our sleeves

and do it. And I guess going back to those days

of, of YCS of being you know, kind of like

organising lots of things, there is a sense of our

stuff's got to get done and we're going to make it

happen. But a leader phrase isn't there. A leader

without a follower is just someone going on a

walk. And part of my, what I feel is my

responsibility is in a leadership position is

about how do I ensure, enable and contribute to

other people playing their part effectively. Not

everybody is a leader. Not everybody. You know, it

isn't a sort of linear role. I've seen quite a lot

of people frankly, promoted beyond their

capabilities. But you know, and M. We see it in

public life all the time, people failing up, you

know, but, but I think it is about how do we

encourage people so try to either within, within a

work environment or through my own personal time

kind of support other people, particularly women

in, in leadership roles or early on leadership

roles. And you know, it's not like I'm not a

formally trained coach or anything like that, but

it's more like let's have a cup of tea and that's

having a bit of encouragement and you know, have a

chat. And you know, some of this isn't rocket

science and some, but some of this needs you to

really pull on a lot of inner strength. Leadership

is also often a really unpopular place to be

because you have to take that responsibility and

you have to make difficult decisions and you're

not necessarily going to be liked. You know, I am

an inveterate people pleaser and it's sometimes

that's the hardest part of it, you know, having

negative things said about me and, and, or you

know, kind of, of all that kind of stuff. And I

just think, yeah, M. But I've got difficult

decisions I've got to make. I'm not, I'm, you

know, we're not having to cut staff because I've

woken up one morning rubbing my hands with glee to

say, who can I make cry today? It's actually I've

got a really difficult decision about the

sustainability of the organisation in three, five

years time. It's, you know, it's difficult and

equally just in a, just in a parish setting, you

know, leadership is, is, or in an everyday life

setting, leadership is kind of putting your head

above the parapet it and saying actually how can I

take responsibility for something here that takes

real courage and. Yeah, takes real courage

sometimes not being liked. But then, you know, you

kind of look at it. We're Christians, aren't we?

Ultimately, the essence of leadership is there in

Jesus on the cross. You know, paying the ultimate

price, failing miserably in the eyes of all of

his. All of his supporters and followers who had

run off, who had completely disappeared. You know,

who's at the foot of the cross, his mum, and

obviously the disciple that loved him. All of, you

know, it's the. But it was the women at the foot

of the cross. And I kind of think, you know,

there's a whole load there about that. Sounds

terrible. Doesn't it sound so terribly arrogant?

you know, but we do carry crosses and I think

leadership, being responsible, taking your

responsibility seriously, is a cross to carry.

>> Julia: So as a leader, how do you discern those bigger,

tougher decisions?

>> Christine: Well, you rarely do them on your own. A lot of,

like the, the literature kind of ways of thinking

about leaders is very often, you know, it's a male

out there and, you know, carrying everything on

their own. It's the Allen Sugar. You know, I'm

individually making decisions. The reality is

that, you know, you're leading an organisation

which is often, you know, groups of people. So the

team that I work with have to work well together,

have to help one another and help us all make good

decisions. If it was just about what I decided on

its own, God help CAFOD y'know it's, There is that

side of it. So it's. It's about getting the best

out of people. It's about making sure that we're

able to make decisions. Yeah, my job is to make

sure we make them. Them not just to sit around and

talk forever, but we make them well informed with

a sense of. And, and to help us all kind of

identify that vision and, and take that

responsibility seriously of how do we meet that

vision. but, yeah, there is the sense in which

the, the book stops here. The decisions are on my

shoulders. I am very conscious of that. Of. Yeah,

you share the glory, you take the pain.

>> Julia: You said, God help Catherine. But I assume God

does help those decisions as well.

>> Christine: Indeed, yeah. I mean, just any, any form of

thinking through decisions and discernment is

absolutely rooted in that quiet, prayerful plea

that. That we make to help me make these

decisions. Well, yeah.

>> Julia: So are you ever just Christine and not the

Christine, the director of CAFOD Do you ever get

that time to just be yourself?

>> Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why in my parish

I'm Christine that helps with the music. I'm not

Christine. it is. It is very. It is very

important. And I'm, I'm a mum and a terrible wife.

I mean, I absolutely couldn't do it without my

husband. I mean, he's just amazing in terms of

making sure things happen. I'd never be fed

otherwise, you know, just mad. So, yeah, there's a

lot of that. That's me. And a lot of it is. Is

rooted in. Yes, in just. In that kind of quiet

time sometimes.

>> Julia: So what does Christine, who does the music mean?

>> Christine: I mean, I'm probably a complete pain in the ass to

them, but I am I playing. I help coordinate the

music in my church and so we have a number of

different sort of things. I run a kids choir,

which is very exciting. More like. Actually, they.

>> Christine: I was going to say more like crowd control, the

music. But actually they're amazing. I mean, in

the. In the practise, you know, there's that bit

where you think, oh, God, what's gonna happen? And

then they just deliver the most beautiful sounds.

It's just lovely. And yeah, I played the piano and

stuff like that. So. Music. I. I really enjoy

music in. In church settings, but I'm. I'm an

interesting mix of. I. I do like quite

contemporary music, which I know a lot of people

hate, but I really like to be music because I do

find that the being able to express one's emotions

in a holy setting is incredibly powerful and it

help. It certainly helps me tap into it in a way

that. That in other parts of my life, I don't

always operate out of that emotional space.

>> Julia: So how do you stay authentically yourself? And by

that I mean that you don't become this Persona

that is. Christine Director of CAFOD how do you

stay true to yourself?

>> Christine: I think. I think prayer is an important part of

that and a recognition of some level of humility.

I mean, God does often kind of do those things

that, you know, you coming home from a. From an

event say, well, it's been, wow, it's been amazing

and you've had all this adulation and, you know,

then someone's gonna kind of give you a hard time

on the tube or something like that. Do you know

what I mean? It's just those things always can

tend to happen. So there's prayer, there's quiet

time, there's being me, there's being open to not

being up Myself, my family situation is, is very

much not CAFOD and adulation. So it's, it's, it's,

it's. I'm just, I'm just quite ordinary in that

respect.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you knew about leadership and

faith when you started this journey?

>> Christine: I mean, yeah, thinking back to the beginning of my

sort of career if you like, I guess there's

something about recognising how connected sort of

leadership and faith are. For me that it is the

faith has always been as I said faith has always

been just sort of like there, it's not necessarily

being the thing about going into church or there's

a sort of inner core to it. And so I guess that

sense of kind of like leadership and faith is like

how faith sustains all aspects of one's life. And

from a faith perspective I think leadership means

something very different than you know, kind of

business manuals might tell you. But that's taking

quite a long time to learn what that, what that

means because that's been quite countercultural

throughout a lot of my life. I think we're in a

different place now in terms of leadership. You

know, I look at kind of TED talks and I hear

about, you know, we talk about vulnerability, we

talk about servant leadership and all that kind of

stuff. Well that was, that was like woo woo stuff

when I was first start, first starting out career

wise, you know that people would think you were

bonkers if you, if you talked about that in that

way. And then I think the other thing is that I'm

doing okay. When I was young I did the 11 plus.

Didn't actually know was doing it, just did this

test and I passed the 11 plus. I got into the

grammar school only for a year and then it went,

was m made comprehensive. But I remember my mum,

AH10 and her sister that I'd got into into school

and Mandy Mary was quite, she found it very

difficult to praise people my aunty Mary. So

she'll go oh get you state of you. You won't be

wanting to talk to the likes of us anymore. And

there's always been that sort of sense of don't

get above your station, don't you know, don't step

into those places. So I've often struggled with

what does it mean to be a leader, you know, who

wants to listen to me. So I'm playing a role as

CAFOD director. I'm speaking on behalf of CAFOD

There's no stopping me but as me there's that

Fundamental insecurity and sort of terror about,

what am I, what am I worthy of? You know, and

faith has been an important part in helping me to

understand my worth because God loves me. End of

story It doesn't matter, you know, I'm not

perfect, nobody is. but that fundamental love is

there. And that's taken a long time to kind of

come to terms with, come to grips with, and embody

that in a leadership message.

>> Julia: I was just thinking about how I think God often

uses our, moments of weakness. And I use that very

like, loosely so that you're not feeling like you

need to, you can get above your station. I think

God uses that in a way to like, push us further

than we would if we were feeling great. I'm born

to be a leader.

>> Christine: Well, I always do think that, you know, the worst

leaders are the ones who think they're the best.

because you've always got to have that sense of,

well, who am I? What am I about? And getting that

balance between your strengths and your weaknesses

is always difficult because you don't want to be

beating yourself up all the time. You don't want

to be kind of like flagellating yourself of, oh,

I'm not worthy, you know, because that's, that's

just irritating as well. But it's a middle line

between just being authentic, you know,

recognising. Yeah, I'm good, you know, and I use

this, brilliant quote of, you know what, what

really frightens you is not your weakness, it's

your strength. You know, the Marianne Taylor

Williams quote, which is amazing. And you know,

right in the middle it says, because you are a

child of God, you know, and that's what's so

powerful about it. And I think that's the thing

was we often. And I think it's a gender thing too,

you know, women, women. Not that men don't, but I

think women often feel it much more themselves

that I don't want my light to shine, you know,

that it's somehow not right to be strong and

confident in yourself. but as long as there's an

authenticity there, then I think that's what

matters.

>> Julia: So what are you most grateful for?

>> Christine: I suppose I'm grateful for the huge number of

people that have helped me be the person I am and

the, the way in which I've been able to kind of

grow and take opportunities and been seen to have

opportunities throughout my life from my parents.

you know, like I was saying, for what I put my

mother through in my life, I no idea. And, And

there's moments when I kind of think, oh, yeah, I

know. She's. She's looking down on me, like, kind

of giving me a, Give me a kick in a nice way. You

know, Lots of people have kind of opened doors for

me or enabled me to see doors that were open and

encouraged me and seen things in me that I had not

seen. I am fundamentally grateful for the sort of

church tradition and scripture and all of that.

That kind of helps me have a clear sense of what's

right and what's wrong in the world. And that

powers me along, knowing that I'm walking

alongside so many other people. But ultimately,

the people that I'm most grateful to, my husband

and my daughter. Because fundamentally, I wouldn't

be able to do what I do without my husband. And

I'm so proud of my daughter, who's gonna carry it

on. She's. She's studying civil engineering and

she said to me, well, someone's got to solve the

problems of this world that your generation have

left us with, you know, And I. You know, my heart

broke, because it was like, I've done my best,

Grace. You know, it's like you. But actually it's

brilliant because it's kind of like that sense of

she's got confidence in herself and what she can

do. And I'm like, yes. You know, she's all the

things that I kind of wanted to be.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

Christine talked about the importance of being

grounded in her own identity. And it was a gentle

reminder for us all to be authentic to who God is

calling us to be. How about you? We'd love to hear

how Christine's story resonated with you. And why

not also tell us if you're facing an experience

you wish you knew how to look at differently, it

might just be something we can help with. You can

find out more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.