>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I, meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Naoise, who's originally

from Dublin and now living in London working for

Bishops Conference. We talked about his experience

of moving to England and how he has to take risks

to follow his faith.

>> Naoise: Faith.

>> Julia: I know this conversation will challenge me to

think about the risks I need to take in my faith.

So, Naoise, what was it like growing up in Dublin?

>> Naoise: Yeah, I mean, I think it's one of these things

when you grow up somewhere you. I mean, you don't

really have any to compare to. very family

focused. So I'm the eldest of seven children, six

younger siblings, four brothers, two sisters. my

mum is from Galway in the west of Ireland, my dad

is from London. So Anglo Irish family. So my

parents decided to break all kind of Catholic

stereotypes and decided to have seven kids and

live opposite of church. So faith and family were

kind of central to growing up. I grew up in the

centre of Dublin, so kind of inner city. Could

walk to school in about a half an hour, 40

minutes. Was quite involved in local sports clubs,

did quite a bit of rowing as a teenager. I think I

found Dublin a very warm, friendly, welcoming

place. And I think there's a real sense of

community, and support. And I think growing up

when I had kind of ambitions to come over here for

university or, to get more involved in rowing or

to pursue different kind of charitable things, I

really felt a kind of a strong sense of work for

my parents. So I think partly because I'm the LS7,

I think my parents are always quite keen that they

would support each of us equally, and kind of

encourage us to develop our individual

personalities. And then hopefully, as much as

we're going to provide the conditions in which we

could pursue those things. So, so they kind of, I

think from an early age it was pretty clear I was

kind of m more on the academic side of things. I

remember I think in primary school probably

because I was finding some of the stuff a little

bit kind of unchallenging. I would start kind of

designing my own homework to do, which was great

for the teachers, not great for I think other 7 or

8 year olds probably looking at me kind of

askance, wondering like what on earth is this guy

doing? But I always had kind of a strong academic

desire, desire to learn from when I was quite

young. So my parents were quite keen to kind of

encourage that. then other siblings. My mum was

stay at home mum, my dad worked in a bank. So I

would see my mum a lot kind of during the day, in

the morning after school, then see my dad kind of

later in the evening. Mum definitely had the

tougher job. I think having seven kids, all of

whom have pretty strong independent personalities,

all of whom saw dinner time and the family dinner

table as a chance to kind of debate and

experiment, kind of perform different comedy

experiments and generally just try to kind of ride

each other up in different ways. My mum was a

little bit of a saint for kind of guiding us

through that period.

>> Julia: I'm just imagining the fights were seven because I

grew up with two older brothers so I know that

less fights, more discussions about politics and

religion and all of that. So I can't imagine we're

seven.

>> Naoise: Yeah, it really, yeah. And every night was

different. I mean it was actually. I mean it's a

great blessing because you've such a platform, a

way to kind of define your personality. And I

think when you've got seven people and like nine

people at dinner table, you have like 20, 30

seconds to speak at most. So you get very good.

It's almost like PMQs. You kind of have to get

really good at using like limit the time to kind

of ask the right question or say the right thing.

So one of my sisters, Robin, who's I think

probably one of the funniest people I know, I

think really crafted her humour kind of at the

dinner table. It was okay. And she's number five

of seven. So you're one of the younger ones. So

sometimes when you're a bit younger, the big

family don't always have the same kind of know

space or time to speak. Suddenly she kind of found

the opportunity to kind of really craft a

personality.

>> Julia: So how did your faith fit into.

>> Naoise: All of that, yeah, it kind of developed over time.

So growing up we used to go to Mass Cross Road,

pretty much every Sunday as family. So it's kind

of family routine. so my parents kind of, yeah,

set an example in that way. We'd say grace before

meals on a Sunday. I think my. Didn't. I'd say

this family, we didn't necessarily have kind of a

communal prayer life. I think that was kind of

more of an individual thing, but. M. Yeah, as. As

I kind of got a little bit older, I became more

involved in. In open state things. So my. My Uncle

Dermot is a new marine open stay. So when I was

about 11 or 12, I started going to open state

clubs in. In Dublin, which would normally involve

kind of. You go there on a Saturday, you play a

lot of football. Yeah. You do different kind of

activities. It could be kind of art or woodwork on

animation or different things. you go away on. On

hikes and then maybe in the evening you kind of

pray together in chapel and you have. They have a

kind of what they call a circle where you receive

a little bit of formation, usually on different

virtues. I mean, when you're 12 or 13, it has to

be kind of fairly simple, but it might be, how can

you be a more loving brother, Try not to speak, as

badly about your sisters or annoy your parents as

much, that sort of thing. and then as you get

older, it becomes a little bit kind of deeper,

more thorough. So that was something which was

kind of part of my life at that kind of turn of

primary school, secondary school, then as I became

a teenager. Yeah, it was a little bit of a

journey. So I was still going to Mass on Sundays.

But I think as a lot of teenagers do, you kind of

develop more of an independent intellectual life.

You have your own kind of interests and you try to

kind of push against boundaries of these things.

So I do remember kind of 14, 15 having a lot of

debates with my parents, especially my dad, around

kind of faith and different things. So around

issues like, evolution or contraception or the

Eucharist or. Yeah, different issues where I just.

I wasn't fully satisfied by the church's teaching

and also because I just hadn't had it explained to

me, it was kind of just, you know, passed down in

school via the religion textbook. These things

never really featured at Mass. So I just, you

know, read things online or in books and they go,

that sounds like a good counterargument. And then

I would kind of raise this with my dad. Because my

dad would be kind of the main, in the house kind

of one with the more kind of theological

formation. so those were quite important

conversations. yeah, we'd often disagree or I

think eventually my dad would kind of get a bit

fed up spending a Sunday afternoons trying to

defend evolution to a 14 year old, or you know, or

trying to defend the church's teachings on the

Eucharist. But it was But I think that was an

important period for me learning how to ask

questions and how to kind of take it seriously.

and also if I wasn't satisfied by the answer, kind

of what I did about that said, yeah, I'd say from

kind of 14, 15 I was, I'd say I was kind of

intellectually fairly convinced that the Church

was right in most things. And at least I hadn't

come up. I hadn't encountered a kind of similarly

compelling philosophy or worldview, at school or

like in independent reading or in conversations

with people. I hadn't really found anything else

that was as compelling. There were some things I

wasn't sure about. But I think generally I thought

this seems unbalanced to be the most kind of

coherent way of understanding life, and of living.

>> Julia: And I was just thinking, I think it's important

that if you grow up with faith that you have those

times of wrestling with this question.

>> Naoise: Yeah.

>> Julia: And I know like, I don't think I had it as young

as 14. I think it was slightly older.

>> Naoise: Sure.

>> Julia: But I think I, I did take that time to like work

out. Why does the Church teach that rather than

just saying this is what the church teaches and

therefore it's correct?

>> Naoise: Yeah, I think it's crucial and I think a lot of it

is because. And I think God wants us to. Right.

Like, like providentially he's. He's given us and

like gifted us an intellect and he wants us to

push against the boundaries of these things partly

so that we can kind of deeper come to know and to

love them, you know, that we actually really, you

know, in order. It's a bit like any sort of

relationship, you know, if you if you don't really

get to know the person or spend time with them or

ask them hard questions or you really try to kind

of do life together, it's. You're going to have a

fairly surface level understanding of that person

and I think actually a limited, limited capacity

to really love them. So I think that, yeah,

absolutely. I think it's really important to kind

of test these things. And also we have hundreds

and thousands of years of theology and tradition.

And I think that's one thing I found interesting

was a lot of the questions I had had already been

asked by multiple people. which takes a little bit

of. You lose a little bit of intellectual pride.

You realise as a 14 year old you haven't come up

with some kind of novel criticisms of colossalism.

But it was helpful because I could kind of draw on

those. and also gives you confidence that actually

these are saints who are asking these questions.

These are important things to do. but yeah, I mean

the journey. So I think then it was intellectual,

it became kind of more social. So I think, I think

in some senses, kind of once I was kind of

relatively confident about things in terms of like

the ideas, then it was almost more a question of,

okay, but all of you know, none of my school

friends are Catholic. none of the girls I was

seeing were Catholic. Like, none of my, not much

of my social life around me was particularly

Catholic. what's the social advantage in being

Catholic? And that was really the thing I struggle

with as a kind of 15, 16 year old was, okay, I

think this is true, but it feels like a hospital

pass. It feels like a burden that I can't switch

off. The part of my brain thinks is true, but if I

do actually decide to live as if it were true,

it's not going to be socially very advantageous.

And that just felt like a bad trade off. and that

created a bit of teenage angst with God really.

And I remember one particular Sunday, I went over

to Mass. I think probably a little bit late, it

was about 16 and I was kind of fighting, wrestling

with these things internally. And I remember going

over to mass and kind of standing at the back of

the church, I think around the Gospel or, yeah,

maybe beginning of the Eucharist. And I just had a

really strong sense internally that I just

thought, I remember it was old because I was

actually praying to God at the time. So it was

weird. But I kind of said to God internally, God,

I don't think anyone here really believes this. I

don't think the priest or congregation. I think

this is all performance. I think people are just

here, they don't really know what they believe

they're just doing on a Sunday as a ritual.

this all seems fake. And I care a lot about

authenticity and integrity as values. I realised

that more so in time. I think at the time it was

more just kind of an instinctive response. And I

remember actually walking out of the church,

during the Eucharist and walking across the road

home, which takes about 45 seconds. and actually

saying to God internally, God, I don't want to be

part of this. If people don't believe this or if

there isn't that sense of community or it's not a

community of faith, I don't want to be part of it.

That's not fair. I'm not going to sacrifice for

this if this is all a performance. but it was

weird because I actually think that moment was the

beginning of, like, my personal faith in a really

deep way. Because it was actually a moment of

really intimate prayer with God and me kind of

saying to God, God, on some level, actually, I do

believe this, but I need community. I need a

community of faith. I want to be part of a church

where it's. To support it. and it was kind of me

really like, wrestling and like, taking ownership

of my faith in a new way. And then in the kind of

year after that, I had quite a few experiences of,

like, still wrestling, but kind of increasingly,

conforming to it.

>> Julia: So how did you lead from that time of wrestling to

end up, then going to study Church history in

England?

>> Naoise: Yeah, it's a question. m. Yeah. honestly, I think

through many kind of intervening moments, so time

of wrestling, I then was. I was volunteered to

help at a thing called the International

Eucharistic Congress in Dublin. Just kind of a

bacon and national international celebration of

the Eucharist. Yeah. Which I think now, you know,

age 29 with a deeper fade. I think these things

are pretty beautiful. I think age 16, this just

seemed like an awful way to spend, like a week in

June. I couldn't think of any worse. and also

clash with that in the European championships and

football. I think this was like 2012. And I hadn't

actually opted to as my Opus Day kind of spiritual

director or kind of the leader of our group at the

time who thought this would be a good thing for me

and some of the guys in the group to do. And,

because we had volunteered quite later because

they hadn't properly confirmed, the only jobs left

available were the kind of. The most, like, menial

ones. So I was on, like, toilet duty for a week,

which basically involved sitting outside a kind of

a row of, like, portal cabins, making sure they

weren't stolen or. Or they won't. Yeah. Not even

sure quite what the job was, but it was basically

kind of managing that area, like, stewarding it.

Just. I remember, like, I Think it was around,

yeah, maybe half one, two. I was getting a little

bit bored sitting outside. I'll go inside and get

a cup of tea. Yeah. And maybe have a look around.

And I remember I went in And I met two girls there

who subsequently kind of came to know 2,000 in

Ireland. And they were maybe at, the time I was

kind of 16, 17. They were probably in their

mid-20s. And they just had this remarkable joy and

peace around them and they really took an interest

in me or asked me questions and just incredibly

friendly and loving. And I really hadn't

encountered that before among kind of peers or

even you have that in family or relatives. But

having kind of peers who really were just emitting

this sense of like peace and joy and they just had

something about them. And I was being really

struck by it. And I remember got my cup of tea and

I walked back out to the kind of portal cabin

area. Just kind of, you know, resume my. Kind of

my dude, my vigil. And it was just a bizarre

experience. I remember sitting there thinking, I

want whatever they have. Like, whatever they have

seems really good. And you know, these are not the

most like, impressive people in the, you know,

according to different kind of worldly metrics. I

think that's what was kind of like almost a sign

of contradiction to me. It was like, it's funny,

like, these people aren't necessarily people I

would expect to be the most joyful, you know,

based on my kind of worldview of at the time, kind

of liberal sector and these things. But it was

like, yeah, wow. But I have something that I

really want. And that was the beginning of a kind

of a, Oh, that's interesting. There's something

about living this life that brings peace and joy

that I hadn't really encountered. So. Yeah. And I

remember. And then I remember my friend Sean went

in to get a cup of tea and he came out 20 minutes

later and he had the exact same experience. And

ah, we just had this conversation. Like, that's

funny. Like, what is it with these people? And we

weren't sure whether it was a cult thing or they

were just a bit delusional. but there was

something there. And then later that afternoon, a

few other guys turned up to help us volunteer

from. And these were guys who were involved in

Youth 2000. sorry, for those who don't know, who

are listening. Youth 2000 is kind of based in the

UK as well, I think originated in Germany. It was,

I think a post world, Youth Day Sydney creation.

But it was Kind of. It's basically a lay led form

of mission in the church. So it's run by lay

people before lay people, with the support of kind

of priests and bishops. And they have annual and

kind of, monthly or kind of weekly retreats and

prayer groups. And it's very eucharistic, it's

very Marian. And the idea basically is to kind of

encourage young people into the heart of the

church and really trying to kind of foster young

people in their spiritual lives and create a space

of community. and it's been, I think, remarkably

fruitful in terms of kind of vocations and

conversions and and really creating kind of almost

like a parallel social space, which I think age

16, 17 is super valuable. So some of these guys

popped in and these guys are maybe like a year

older than us. But I think what I found remarkable

is that they were really normal. Like they played

sports, they had girlfriends, they had interest

and you know, they had interesting hobbies. They

were, they cared about academics, but they also

had faith and they had this kind of joy and peace.

and myself, my friend Sean, like befriended these

guys and we spent the whole week with them. I

think we probably did abandon our, our voluntary

positions. Probably did a very poor job managing

the car park. but we, but actually, but funnily

enough, actually I remember like halfway through

that week chatting to our, the open stay guy, a

guy called Louis Sandesala, who's a friend of

mine, a fantastic man who kind of volunteered us

for it. And we kind of said to him, we were like,

yeah, sorry, we haven't actually been doing our

job very much because we've been having so much

fun with these guys. And we've been going, I

remember we said almost, we couldn't believe it.

We said, yeah, we actually spent last night going

to adoration.

Like, don't quite know why, but it was really

beautiful. He really enjoyed it. And he was like,

that was exactly what I was hoping would happen.

Like, don't worry about the job. Like, that was

just a way of inviting you guys into the space.

And I'm really glad you've. You know, if you want

to go to details in the summer, I'm happy to drive

you guys or do whatever I can to support you. So

that was a real. Yeah, a real time of kind of, I

think, interior conversion. And I think for me it

kind of answered that question of is it possible

to have friends who are Catholic and have that

community of faith and for that to be something

kind of really fruitful and flourishing and is it

possible to be normal and Catholic? Because I

think for me at the time that seemed like the

trade off, it was like, okay, I'd be normal and

not Catholic and have this interior sense of lack

of integrity, or I'd be Catholic, but I just then

have to swallow kind of, okay, my life is going to

be a bit weird.

>> Julia: So is it possible to be normal and Catholic?

>> Naoise: that's a question. I, would say, yes and no. I,

mean no in the sense that I don't think any of us

are normal. I'm not really sure exactly. I think

normal is a little bit of a conceit. but I would

say yes in terms of it is possible to be Catholic

and to have a deep faith and prayer life and to

also have other interests and hobbies and to have

a, well, ordered life. And I think we should

actually, I think it's really important as

Catholics that we, you know, our faith is, at the

core and is our first priority. But we are

supposed to have, you know, we're supposed to be

involved in sports or activities or hobbies or do

charity work or, you know, care about our families

or have friends and we're allowed to have non

Catholic friends. You know, like, it's, I think it

should be part of a really comprehensive hol life.

>> Julia: And I guess it comes back to what you were saying

earlier about being, being authentic.

>> Naoise: Right.

>> Julia: And being authentically ourselves.

>> Naoise: Right.

>> Julia: And our faith is probably the core of who we are,

but also doesn't just define us as who we are.

>> Naoise: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think it's, I think for

different people that looks differently. You know,

I think for some people, maybe especially when

people convert or come to a faith for the first

time, they do want faith to be kind of really

maybe 60, 70% of what they do every day. And I

think for some people that that's a very

flourishing thing. I think maybe often that kind

of settles down after a bit as they kind of settle

into it. But yeah, I think that's, I think it's

also trying to avoid a sense of it being a

competition. and sometimes it is. I mean,

sometimes there is a. Okay, if I'm going to mass

on a Sunday morning, I probably can't be in a

nightclub at 3am on a Saturday night. That's

probably not ideal. so there are certain trade

offs that you might need to make in your life and

you might think about, okay, are there parts of my

life that actually are kind of cutting against my

faith and But I think in some ways that's actually

a really important process. I think we all go

through this. I think this is a lifelong thing, in

different ways. And I think that's where I find

the Ignatian stuff quite helpful, around kind of

desire and attachment and detachment and kind of

holy indifference and having this sense of, okay,

how, do we care about the things that do really

matter and how do we care less about the things

that actually, in the final analysis, don't matter

as much? And I think one of the ways we do that is

the way we kind of order our time.

>> Julia: So you went from being 17. Ish.

>> Naoise: Yeah.

>> Julia: At the Eucharistic Conference.

>> Naoise: Right.

>> Julia: But then you went to England to study Church

history.

>> Naoise: Yes.

>> Julia: How did that come about?

>> Naoise: Yeah, yeah, sorry. It's a long, winding, kind of,

long winded story But, So Eucharistic Congress, go

over to Youth 2000. Suddenly my faith life became

part of my social life. You know, things that I

felt a greater sense, like interior peace, kind of

just more coherency. It was still kind of playing

rugby, doing different things, but had this kind

of felt like my faith was like, more intently part

of who I was. So, yeah, I can't remember exactly

where the idea of applying to go to Oxford came

from, but I think I've always had this sense of, a

desire to, in whatever I do for that to be the

best possible version of it. And I think there was

some sense of, okay, in a very simple kind of

teenage way, you get the chance to go to

university once. If I'm going to go to university

and I'm going to spend these two years studying as

hard as I can and balancing with everything else,

one, I'll try to go to the best possible

university I can. I'd always had the idea of going

abroad and I think because I went to school in the

centre of Dublin and the major university in

Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, is around the

corner for my school, my secondary school. I

remember saying to my parents when I was 17, yeah,

the issue I have is that, like, if I went to

Trinity, it would. I would basically just be

getting off the bus one stop earlier every day.

Like, it wouldn't feel very different. It would.

It just. It would be too similar. It wouldn't feel

like enough of a change. I just had a sense of,

like, I want to go to university and go somewhere

different, have a different experience and meet

new people and kind of grow more. it was a bit

tricky because I was obviously dating someone who

was living in Ireland a Lot of my friends were in

Ireland so there was a sense of like the social

cost. But I think at the time that didn't kind of

matter as much. And I think I had a sense of that

kind of teenage sense of you can kind of do

anything and that's fine, I'll manage that. I'll

do that from a distance.

>> Julia: Which is also interesting that you said the social

cost didn't matter to you so much when actually

that one of the like kind of barriers to your

faith younger had been the lack of social element

in.

>> Naoise: Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, sure. And it does

seem a bit contradictory and it wasn't. I didn't

matter as much. But I think what I had was. I

think I had a clearer sense of kind of personal

identity and I think I had. I think one of the

tensions when I was younger in terms of faith was

in some ways almost like not following my desires

because it was actually I had a lot of desire for

faith and a lot of desire for kind of prayer and

mass and these things and like intellectual desire

for it, but not. But feeling that I almost

couldn't follow it because the follow it would be

to kind of ostracise myself in the community a

little bit. So I kind of in some ways just didn't

really back myself. I thought, okay, actually I

can't really do this because it just felt like a

zero something. And I felt like if I do that I'll

be isolated and I'll lose these friends and I'll

struggle at school. So I'm going to kind of

suppress these things slightly. So I think the

difference probably was that it wasn't so much I

didn't care about. I think that was pretty

overstated. But it was more that it was kind of. I

had a clearer sense of who I was and kind of what

I wanted. And also the fact that that was

compatible with having kind of a good kind of

community life. And I think I had more of like a

positive some view of it. I think the kind of

social cost of moving abroad university I think is

actually in practise like bigger than I knew as a

17, 18 year old in terms of like you don't see

your family as often, you miss a lot of birthdays,

you miss a lot of kind of like major milestones.

Long distance relationships are harder than living

in the same country. Like it's very hard to keep

in touch with friends in a meaningful way if you

don't know what's going on their life and vice

versa. And you just have less in common. So I

didn't get hindsight like when you move abroad for

university or for school or for work, like there

is always there is a gain and a.

>> Julia: Loss. So what was the moment that you realised

that your faith needed to be part of. Be central

in your university.

>> Naoise: Experience? Yeah, beginning of my second year. I

think initially I, I kind of overestimated how big

the transition would be or underestimated. So I

think I thought, okay, I'm going to come over

here, I'll do my work. It'd be a bit, it'd be a

bit rough, it'd be a bit tough work wise because

I'm. I'm not massively a historian so naturally,

the way I think, at least at the time, so I'm

gonna have to fight pretty hard to kind of make it

work. And then I'll come home and see my

girlfriend at weekends or maybe every, every few

weeks I'll stay in touch with my friends. I might

have, you know, I'll do some rowing in Oxford so

I'll have a few friends through that. But yeah,

generally I'll be able to kind of live in both

places. And then I realised that actually in

Oxford. Yeah, that's, that's not ideal. Yeah, you

need to be there full time really. And I think I

found the first year pretty tricky because I was

actually coming home quite a bit. I was coming

home probably two or three times per term, which,

and terms are only eight weeks. So if you're, if

you're away two or three weekends it puts you

under a lot of academic pressure and I was still

managing it but it was like I definitely wasn't

doing as well as I could do and I had a kind of

frustration that I feel like I'm not fulfilling my

potential therapies. I feel like caught between

two stools and I come home and I'd see friends or

I'd see my girlfriend any at the time and it would

be like, it'd be wonderful to see them. But I

would, I wouldn't feel entirely settled there

either because I would feel like I kind of have

this essay I need to do and I actually, I don't.

Yeah, I wouldn't really feel settled in either

place. So I had a year where that was just tough

and I didn't feel massively happy and I came back

and, and I remember that summer I went to World

Youth Day in Krakow. It was kind of some of my

first year and just had this real sense of, I

don't feel Very happy. I don't feel like I have

my. My life doesn't really feel in order or it's

not quite. I felt very drawn all over the place

and I think I'd almost felt like I'd lost that

kind of coherency that I had maybe at the end of

secondary school where things are kind of all

pulling in the same direction. So I was actually

like, how do I try to recover some of this? But

then basically being my second year, I think I

just had a sense of I need community here because

I was still going to mass pretty much every Sunday

and I had a bit of a prayer life and I was doing

the occasional opens day thing, but it just, it

felt like that wasn't really nourishing me. And

then thanks, thank God. Like I went to the

chaplaincy, went to Catholic Society and almost

immediately met some really good people who are

still like, you know, some of my best friends to

this day. And I think in my third week the

president at the time, a M guy called William

Maddock, an American guy, he's now back in the US

teaching, A wonderful man. And he was doing a,

actually a master's, I think in church history at

the time. And he, I think he kind of spotted that

I was someone who had faith and was kind of in

their faith but was maybe a bit lost or needed

something. And he said to me, hey, like, we've got

a position opening up on the committee for a

secretary. Yeah, just involves taking minutes.

They can be pretty simple. and also that, cooking

and cleaning after the meals on Thursdays. Would

you be interested? No one else has really applied.

And I took that opportunity because I remember

thinking, I don't love minute taking and I didn't

come here with a desire to become secretary, but I

had a sense of actually if I'm secretary and I'm

on a committee, I have to be here every week. It

gives me a role and responsibility. It means at

the very least I'll make friends with other

committee members and that will give me a bit of a

platform. So yeah, so I did that. And then these

are kind of year long positions. So it meant that

like for the end of first, end of second year,

being in third year, I was doing this and it kind

of changed my life. Like it certainly Oxford, it

meant that suddenly I was spending a lot of the

week in the chaplaincy at these events. And then

it kind of snowballs. Like you meet people, they

invite you to other things. You realise actually,

which is kind of mad in hindsight, I didn't

notice. So, yeah, suddenly my life became, I

think, just more coherent. And it was almost that,

kind of was kind of resonating with that

experience. I hadn't in the end of secondary

school, where I kind of just took a bit of risk on

God and thought, okay, God, I'm going to give you

some time and space here. I'm going to get

involved in a Catholic society. I'm going to trust

that it's a good thing for me to do a bit like

u2000 or opus asap when I was younger and then

thankfully, just kind of like, reap the fruits of

it. and then I decided, because the chaplaincy was

residential, I decided to move in in my third

year.

>> Julia: So how did living in the chaplaincy, like, shape

who you are and your identity and your sense of

self being?

>> Naoise: Yeah, hugely. I think the chaplaincy, it was

wonderful because I used to work there in the

library most days, and I would routinely feel

like, yeah, the least intelligent person in the

room, which was great. Which I love being. I much

rather be. Yeah, that. That is, I think, the right

place to be. And I just learned. I remember I used

to have, like, alongside my academic stuff, I used

to have, like, a separate notepad where I would

write down things that I'd learned that day from

people around me. And it was like, with my friend

Josh, who's a really good friend of mine, who's

just completed a PhD on Augustine, that I, would

recommend everyone read when it's published.

Although it is. It's probably quite long. but, I

mean, yeah, he's one of the most kind of eloquent,

charismatic people I know. And I just learned so

much from him. And I remember, like, how, you

know, he would use big words I never heard of

before, and I'd write them down and look them up

and be like, that's a cool word. Another good

friend of mine, Catherine, who was very interested

in the Dominicans, like, she would really kind of

share, you know, some of the wisdom that she

picked up from them. So I'd make notes of that.

And then a friend of mine, Georgia, was kind of

very into, like, youth ministry and, and the kind

of the pastoral side of things. So it was. It was

a place of, like, great learning, which I think.

And also I think quite humbling because I think,

sometimes maybe one of the dangers is that, like,

if you're kind of a cradle Catholic or you grew up

with these things, or you have a big conversion in

Secondary school. I think you can kind of have a

sense, not always fully consciously, that you kind

of feel like you kind of know it or you know who

you are in your faith and you don't think that's

going to change. And I think in some ways, like,

moving into chaplaincy was like quite a humbling

but like, very exciting period of like, ah,

there's so much here about my faith I had no idea

about, intellectually, theologically, spiritually.

So I remember that that first term in particular

Michelmas term, kind of October to December 2017,

were probably some of the happiest weeks of my

life because I was just learning and ah,

flourishing, and felt like I was surrounded by

people who were, who care deeply about their faith

but also had so many other interests and hobbies

and, and things, going on. So it was, yeah, hugely

formative in terms of me, I think, kind of, yeah,

just deepening a love for it really.

>> Julia: So looking back over your life since you were like

16,

>> Naoise: Right.

>> Julia: You actually had taken quite a few risks. You like

the first risk of moving to Oxford and then you

had the risk of like staying. Well, you moved to

London.

>> Naoise: Sure.

>> Julia: What, what did you, what did you learn about your

faith in that time?

>> Naoise: I think it's interesting because I think, I think

you're right. But I think sometimes at the time

things don't necessarily seem as risky as they

might seem in hindsight. In some ways I'm kind of

glad almost in a way that maybe that I wasn't as

fully aware at the time of like, some of the, like

the separation from family or some of these

things, because I think otherwise it can paralyse

you if you're almost too aware of all the possible

kind of pros and cons of these things. I think in

some ways, trusting your instinct and kind of

keeping things simple and just kind of following

your desires is something that's actually quite

helpful and necessary. It is remarkable, I think,

how like, throughout different seasons of my life,

God has been there in different ways. And even the

fact that my spiritual life has had seasons and

that some ways it's been more intellectual or it's

been more focused on charity or it's been more

focused on my work or more focused on study or

whatever, or family. That like God has been

constant, but also that we never fully come to.

Like, we can never fully explore God. Like there's

always more we can learn and there's always. But

also more that we can learn about ourselves and

that relationship with God which I Think I think

for me was a big turning point at Oxford was

actually realising there's so much about myself,

my relationship with God and about God that I just

actually don't know. And, kind of being excited to

figure that out. So recognising that like, if we

had this conversation in 10, 15, 20 years time,

they would be different conversations each time

probably because there would be other big kind of

moments of like, change or things I've already

learned about my faith in the meantime. but what I

would say is, like, I think the advantage of

taking risks and pursuing your desires and doing

these kind of scary, difficult things is, I think,

what it does. I think in my case, like, it really

helps to kind of refine a sense of your, your

priorities, but also like how much you can

actually depend on God. Because I think there were

definitely moments when I was in Oxford, sitting

in my room in college, where you feel pretty

lonely and you feel pretty isolated and part of

you feels like, what have I done? Like, I've left

Ireland, I've left these social communities and

I've kind of dislocated myself voluntarily in a

mad way. and then you really pray and then you

really deepen, I think, like, and I think then you

can be really intimate with God because then it

can be like God. Actually all of these things are

really good and valuable, but they are all

actually, they're all temporary and transient. And

I think people often have this experience with

grief, right? They're like when people pass away

or hopes fail, or your different dreams are

disappointing. And there's a real sense of

actually, what is my life about now? And I think

I've had that moment several times of these risks

that are moments, especially in that transition

when things are hard, things are difficult, and

you're in that kind of in between stage where

you've left something behind but you haven't quite

reached the destination. And I think then there

are a lot of potential inducements towards

despair. Or you might try to go back to what

you're doing and that doesn't quite work. Or you

try to kind of fast forward and push things too

much. And actually sometimes sitting in that

waiting, we're speaking here, middle of December,

there's a kind of Advent theme there, in a way,

actually being comfortable with discomfort. And I

think as Pope Benedict talks about seeking

greatness rather than comfort, I think in, a kind

of magnanimity, it doesn't necessarily mean that

we need to have, you know, great kind of accolades

in our lives, but more in Terms of like what is

the greatest possible thing I can do in my life

and recognising that actually God is the constant

in that and that relationship with God can persist

despite any change. So I think that was something

which I really learned was kind of actually even

if my life changes around tomorrow hugely and you

know, someone passes away or I lose my job or I go

through huge transitions, of course on a human

level it will be very dislocating and upsetting

and, and difficult and there are important

emotions there that you need to feel. But actually

I can really also deepen and trust my relationship

in God.

>> Naoise: So you've obviously learned a lot. But is there

anything you'd wish you'd known about trust and

living out your faith?

>> Naoise: Yeah, Yeah, I mean praying more, I mean that's the

simple answer. But I think if I could make one

change in my life now it would be to pray more. I

think that's the key. I think, I think in any

relationship you need to be talking to the person

you need to be. You can't be in a relationship

with someone unless you're actually in

conversation with them. And I think that's I'd say

the times in my life when things have gone best is

usually you know, in a broad sense, yeah, you're

in conversation with God and I've been struck by

that. There have been many times, especially at

university when things are a bit overwhelming,

work wise or academically or combination different

things that I found yeah, prayer was really both

kind of like psychologically like relieving and

settling but also m. It just reorientates you and

I think it just gives you a new sense of priority.

And it is remarkable how like having, regaining

that sense of like almost having kind of, kind of

like a heavenly horizon. Like one of my friends

university like Catherine used to talk about like

the value of having like an eschatological

horizon. And then she's absolutely right that like

you need to have your eyes set on heaven

ultimately and that's difficult because you know

what heaven looks like and feels like very far

away time and space wise. But having that sense of

the end things in mind I think as much as we can,

which I think kind of prayer reorientates you too

is super helpful because I think in that light a

lot of things kind of fall away. A lot of things

you thought were important don't seem as important

anymore.

>> Julia: I know one of the things that's always helped me

is the idea of having your eyes on heaven but your

feet on the ground so living in reality, but still

praying.

>> Naoise: Right. Yeah. Which is hard. Right. And I think

it's very difficult not to do one or the other.

Yeah.

>> Julia: But what are you grateful for?

>> Naoise: A lot. I think family hugely. And I think

increasingly as I get older. I mean it's one of

these things where you just grow up in a family

and as a child it's all great, as a teenager it's

all awful. And then as an adult it's kind of.

Yeah, it's more balanced. But that's something I'm

really grateful for because I feel like I have

inherited a lot of positives from my family and

very few, like, negatives in comparison, really.

And I think, I think for my mum just like a

remarkable. Her remarkable capacity to love and to

be generous and to care about others. And that

being an instinct and a starting point, a

disposition. And also my mum, I think has a real

sense of like. I think I get any sort of risk

taking capacity I have or desire for my mum. My

dad is more cautious and conservative, but my mum

is. And he's an accountant. So, yeah, they're not

supposed to be as risk taking. Whereas mum is kind

of more of an adventurous personality. And, it

makes me, I think, a good team. But, And it's

helpful to have both kind of influences. But I'd

aim for my mum just a real sense of

adventurousness and a sense of making the most of

your life. And I think that that is fast. That's

fantastic. Because now if I speak to my mum about

things, she has that kind of impulse and I find it

really encouraging and enabling. And then for my

dad, I think, yeah, a kind of a pragmatism, a

prudence, a kind of feet on the ground, aspect.

but also like, it is our love of education and a

desire for. To do as well as possible kind of

educationally and professionally, which I think.

And that being an important value to have as a

Catholic. And then my siblings, like, yeah, just

such a range of personalities and interests and

dynamism and each like very good people, in

different ways, I think increasingly just

realising actually how blessed I am partly, to

have avoided like certain family difficulties that

can happen that can have like, really difficult

impacts on people's lives. You know, through no

choice of my own. You know, we don't choose

situations we grew up in. And then also like, I

think loads of kind of added positives and

benefits. So, yeah, that's what increasing as I

get older. It's like, wow, I'm really glad that

when I encounter X, Y and Z in my life, I think

about it in this way. And I think one of the

reasons I do is because of my parents.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation will stay with me because

often I need to remember to trust in God. He's got

the bigger plan. How about you? We'd love to hear

how Naoise's story resonates with you. And why not

also tell us if you're facing experience you wish

you knew how to look at differently, it might just

be something we can help with. You can find out

more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.