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Andy Polaine: Hello and welcome to Power
of 10, a show about design operating

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at many levels of Zoom from thoughtful
detail through to transformation in

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organization, society, and the world.

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My name's Andy Plane.

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I'm a design leadership coach,
designer, educator, and writer.

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My guest today is Dr. TR Tree Tan.

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She specializes in culturalization
strategies tailored for

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international growth.

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She leverages cultural insights to craft
winning global business strategies and

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has partnered with industry giants,
fortune 500 companies and household

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names, guiding them to navigate
international markets successfully.

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Tree tree's expertise lies in simplifying
complex cultural landscapes into

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actionable strategies that drive
success for businesses worldwide.

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She is also the author of a
new book where she's gathered a

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lot of her knowledge together.

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It's called Research for Global
Growth Strategies and Guidance

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Across Cultural Insights.

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Chui Chi.

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Welcome to Power of 10.

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Chui Chui Tan: Thank you Andy.

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Thanks for having me.

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Andy Polaine: So I gave you your
sort of, you know, your official bio.

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Can you tell me a little
bit about your journey here?

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I think I read in, in the book that you've
been in 46 countries around the world.

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Yeah.

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Doing, doing, uh, I don't know
how much of that is living or

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traveling and how much is work.

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Quite a lot of it's for work.

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But, uh, tell me how you got
into the, the work you're doing

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and what you're doing now.

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Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

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Um, so I, my background is, I, I suppose
I should actually mention about my

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background because I think it plays
certain elements into what I'm doing now.

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So I'm a Malaysian Chinese,
um, so my grandparents actually

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from China, so by Malaysians
I'm very relate to this country.

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Um, so we follow the Chinese, uh, culture.

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Um.

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Because that is our traditions and we
celebrate the, the, the same um, um,

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celebrations as in China, but in Malaysia
it is kind of like, I dunno, um, your

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audiences and yourself know about this,
but it's actually Malaysians, it's very.

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A melting pot.

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Really.

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Yeah.

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But is, um, it's kind of have
a lot of ethnicities, um, like

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Malay, Chinese and Indians and
many other ethnicities as well.

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So I kind of grew up in very much
on the cultural, how to say, like

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very much blended into different
culture and very familiar to me.

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Without me knowing that.

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So my background, my undergraduate and
my master is completely different's

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in mechanical engineering and
then, uh, music technology master.

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And um, by, I end up doing human
and computer interactions as my PhD.

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And that led led me to, um, user
experience, well we call it human

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computer interactions and then
usability and then UX and then cx.

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You know, like I went through the whole
evolutions of our industry really.

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Um.

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Can I accidentally mention
about my Asian at this point?

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Yeah.

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But um, so yeah, I think, uh, my
background is customer experience, but

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where I start off with the globalizations
and culturalization is more when I

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started, um, working with, at the time
Merit International, I was work with

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them as their external global consultant.

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Really helping them to understand their.

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Travelers and, and from different
cultures how they book hotels and

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then meets from end-to-end journey and
digital experience and also in hotel.

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And that kind of start to bring me
into, oh, there's actually the world

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out there and what is different.

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And then I think because it's quite, um.

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My roots, where kind of see different
culture is very common to me.

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So I start to kind of
work on that a lot more.

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And then I start working for myself
for the last seven or eight years.

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And I focus very much on culturalization,
I call it culturalization, uh, mainly

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to help businesses to understand or
simplify complex cultural landscape and

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into actionable strategies that actually
can drive them successful globally.

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So it could be from, um, launching a
new market, like we are going in into

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a new market of this is the first
time we're going into a new market.

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What should we do, what we, what
we should be paying attention to

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or helping businesses to take their
existing market to another level.

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So at this moment as well, I also
advise a lot of C levels and senior

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management to help them to kind of
uncover how their global opportunities

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would be, and also if they have.

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Let's say they have two markets
in two markets and they have

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very different function products,
functions, and services.

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How to bring them together into
one as they start to grow globally.

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So you can have too many
different variations, um, to

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maintains and, and, and governs.

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Um, so how to bring that together so
that you can cater for similarities as

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well as differences, um, easily, um, most
cost efficient and productive as well.

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Andy Polaine: So maybe you
can kind of pull apart.

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Now unpack this, this difference.

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'cause you talk about the
difference between localization

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and, and culturalization.

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Uh, and I think you sort of mentioned a
lot of clients they say, oh yeah, we we're

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sort of already done some localization,
which mainly is we've translated some

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of our staff into another language.

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But you've made the distinction here.

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Can you talk a bit more about
what's the difference between

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culturalization and localization?

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Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

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So first of all, culturalization,
I don't think you can find

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in any additional risk yet.

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But it's kind of self-explanatory for me.

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Um, I think when I've mentioned that
people actually understand what that

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means, um, in, in the higher level.

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But for me, I start off actually
talking about localization with

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businesses, but I start to see actually
the understanding there's a lot of

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misunderstanding and we are not talking
about the same thing when we talk

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about localizations or culturalization.

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So a lot of times, localizations.

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Means to a lot of businesses or,
or senior management is, yeah, like

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you say, changing the language,
changing the currency and ing, you

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know, like adapt design elements
to a very, the bare minimum.

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And that is enough to do that.

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But of course we all know that actually.

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There are more than that to make a local
experience better for the local audiences.

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Um, there are more things to kind
of consider your services and so on.

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So localization is very much,
um, more like one off actions.

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So you do it once you change
the language or you change the

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currency and then that is it.

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You know, like you doesn't
feel like you need to do more

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than that, whereas actually.

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Um, culturalization for
me is more long term.

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Like you, you have to be continuously
doing improving because you can be

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possibly know all the insights about
local culture and local market,

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and then you do all the changes
at once, and then that is it.

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You, your knowledge about
them is going to build up.

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Um, progressively throughout,
uh, the time and also their

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behaviors and things might change.

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Their context in the countries
might change because they have

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a better politicians and things
change economically become better.

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Yeah.

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They have exposed to more, um,
different technologies and so on.

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So the local people's behavior
and mindset and things like that

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will start changing as well.

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So culturalization is about that, about
kind of understanding the full picture.

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And the holistic view I call it.

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And then you keep
continuing, um, improving.

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And it touch on not just language, not
just product, not just, um, design, um,

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or marketing, but it's actually touch on
every single elements of your business

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and everyone have to work together,
um, so that it actually more align.

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So that's why I tend to use
the word culturalization.

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Andy Polaine: Yeah.

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Can you gimme an example?

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I mean, it's probably easiest, I
think, to sort of hear from examples.

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I, I'm, I'm interested of, you know,
what happens if they don't do this?

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What happens when they get it wrong?

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And I dunno if you've got any
examples of that you probably

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might not want to name names.

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Chui Chui Tan: Um, just different
layers of getting it wrong.

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Right?

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The first layer I think I mentioned
in my book as well, um, uh, research

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for Culture, um, global growth is I
actually have, uh, uh, three layers.

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Um.

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I call it to three levels
of culturalization.

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So getting it wrong could be the
first layer where you actually create

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something that actually offensive.

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To the culture or to the
religions of the countries.

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Um, also on uh, or, so that is
kind of like the basic thing.

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You don't want to offend anyone
because you want to build the respect

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you, um, you want to kind of do that.

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Some of examples I mentioned in the
book, some didn't, but, uh, one of

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the example was that geopolitical
mistakes, a lot of company.

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Did, um, in terms of putting Tibet,
um, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, and

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all those into as a country, and so
there's a backlash or they have to

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apologize to the Chinese government.

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So that's geopolitical mistake.

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Um, and then you have others, like
you, there's a campaigns in, um,

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um, by a Canadian supermarket,
like huge Canadian supermarket.

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They kind of have this,
um, festival for the Sikh.

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Um, but they actually promoting,
um, I can't remember which town made

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like as a, as a, as the one of the
promotions of the food, but actually

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it's against their religions to
actually consume that kind of meat.

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During their festival
and things like that.

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So this I to think of getting it wrong or
make the mistake, and then the rest could

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be other elements where you kind of, um,
provide, for example, this again, a simple

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example, provide the wrong payment methods
that they actually be more relevant with.

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Like, for example, in, um, Kenya.

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M PSA is very common.

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If you don't use that, um, and
you say credit cards in a lot of

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countries, then they're actually not
going to be relevant and you create

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barrier for them to actually pay.

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So there are different type of layers.

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Some is more than the others.

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Some is kind of like you will actually
become a barrier for them to use them.

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Some is actually, um, some.

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Of those mistakes, just creating
something that actually would not allow

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you to kind of, um, provide another
layer of growth, for example, um, not

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providing the experience that they,
they kind of, um, look forward to

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Andy Polaine: this experience
and enhancement is the, sort

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of, is the third layer you said?

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Yeah.

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Are they, do you see those as kind of
built on each other that you can't.

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Do you like?

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You have to kind of earn the respect
or, or earn the right to sort of be

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even interacting or be in a marketplace
by those other layers before you

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can kind of get to the enhancement.

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The enhancement layer.

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Yeah.

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Chui Chui Tan: So the
book, I have three layers.

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So one layer is about the respect and the
second layer is about the basic customer

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experience where you kind of provide.

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The right addressed format or
name, formatting first name, last

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name first, and all those things.

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And then the last one was the, the
biggest one, but actually the most

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important one, the enhancement.

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Um, it doesn't have to be like one
layer to the others, but the respect

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one, I would imagine it has to be.

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Yeah, you have to get it right first.

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Um, otherwise, like you move into a new
neighborhood and you didn't have that

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respect, it's hard for you to do anything
else to kind of gain that trust and so on.

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Andy Polaine: Yeah.

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Chui Chui Tan: But the rest, it's
actually, um, it could be done.

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Um, concurrently or actually,
um, progressively as well.

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Andy Polaine: Yeah, it's very subtle.

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A lot of this too, I mean, you know, we
are talking an example here where I think

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probably in our heads, well in, in my
head, you know, there's an example of say

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a kind of a western, you know, or American
company moving into somewhere like China.

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But I know in Australia,
for example, where there's.

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And so I'm British, but I lived in
Australia for, I'm also a Australian

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now, I lived in Australia for a
long time and it probably took me

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about two years I think, of being
there before I really clicked.

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I thought, oh actually this is a different
culture because you know, they're speaking

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English, they've got the queen's head
on their, their money at the same time.

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There's a lot of kind of American
influences there as well, and it sort

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of feels like, oh, I know this and
I watch lots and lots of companies.

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So come into Australia, do that classic
thing of, oh, we are gonna show them

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how these Aussies, how to do this,
you know, from Europe or America.

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And then sort of leave two
years later scratching their

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heads and one was Starbucks.

229
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So Australia has a very, very.

230
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Strong, thriving coffee culture there.

231
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I mean, very kind of, you know,
baristas, kind of carefully measuring

232
00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:25,829
everything and, and that, you know,
people are very particular about

233
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:27,120
the coffee and it's, it's very good.

234
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And Starbucks came and set up in
the middle of kind of the, uh, you

235
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know, CBD Bigs of Glass thing and
just kind of vowed they, they, they

236
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moved, I can't remember how long it
lasted, but it just couldn't kind of.

237
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Get the idea that, you know, that's
not what coffee meant to Australians.

238
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And this was, it was always interesting
for me, the moment it happened for me,

239
00:12:48,975 --> 00:12:52,785
where I had that kind of switch was
someone saying to me, oh, you know,

240
00:12:53,085 --> 00:12:54,795
we were standing by around a barbecue.

241
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I remember this.

242
00:12:55,725 --> 00:12:58,485
They said, I'm really looking forward
to Christmas and the summer holidays.

243
00:12:59,204 --> 00:13:02,505
And I was like, oh my God, you've
had a very different childhood to me.

244
00:13:02,564 --> 00:13:02,775
You know?

245
00:13:02,775 --> 00:13:05,324
And there's this sort of moment
of realizing everything was, in

246
00:13:05,324 --> 00:13:07,574
fact very different and different
values and all of those things,

247
00:13:07,574 --> 00:13:09,465
but kind of very subtle shifts.

248
00:13:09,975 --> 00:13:15,165
You mentioned, um, you know, ordering
things in to match those markets or

249
00:13:15,165 --> 00:13:18,314
to kind of, you know, uh, get the,
make sure you're not offending to

250
00:13:18,314 --> 00:13:19,635
gain respect and all the rest of them.

251
00:13:20,175 --> 00:13:23,655
Um, and actually one of the examples
you gave was around Pixar and I found

252
00:13:23,655 --> 00:13:26,685
that I, you know, 'cause there's a
lot of work obviously to do that.

253
00:13:27,130 --> 00:13:28,660
Do you wanna talk about the Pixar example?

254
00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:29,860
'cause I, I think it Sure.

255
00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:32,560
It's a really nice example of
exactly what you're talking about.

256
00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:33,010
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

257
00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:35,860
I think it's a nice example
and quite easily related to it.

258
00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:36,160
Right.

259
00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:40,540
Um, so yeah, Pixar is very much,
they actually have a, I think I'm

260
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:41,860
watching a documentary about them.

261
00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:45,880
I saw they have a localizations, um, team
as well to look into all these elements.

262
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,480
So the examples I was given
giving in my book and some of

263
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,760
my talks is, um, inside out.

264
00:13:51,820 --> 00:13:53,770
I think they have inside out too now.

265
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,540
But the inside out oneand that we are
talking about, so Riley, the little girl.

266
00:13:58,230 --> 00:14:02,940
Um, so there are scenes that
I, um, you can see that her

267
00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:05,490
dad is trying to fit her broco.

268
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,790
And this is, most of us
actually see this scene.

269
00:14:09,060 --> 00:14:10,740
So a lot of them actually, um.

270
00:14:11,205 --> 00:14:14,685
Riley was being fed by the
dad, um, broccoli, and she has

271
00:14:14,685 --> 00:14:18,435
this disgust, um, feeling like,
ew, I don't want to eat that.

272
00:14:18,825 --> 00:14:22,635
But actually, um, in Japan, they
actually see a very, very different

273
00:14:22,635 --> 00:14:27,780
view, um, because they found out
that broccoli actually, like by the.

274
00:14:28,145 --> 00:14:31,505
Kids in Japan, for some
reason they loved it.

275
00:14:31,564 --> 00:14:35,555
So that doesn't, that doesn't really
much to that kind of perceptions of kids.

276
00:14:35,555 --> 00:14:36,574
Doesn't like broco.

277
00:14:36,875 --> 00:14:40,415
So they did some research into it and
they realized that actually, um, kids

278
00:14:40,415 --> 00:14:43,355
in Japan didn't like, um, green pepper.

279
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,640
So they changed that scene and they are
quite, um, I think it's, there are 26

280
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,500
shoots that they actually changed just for
that, um, that scene, um, to change that.

281
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,740
And then not just that they have, I
think there's another scene quite,

282
00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,030
um, commonly known is the dad Rileys,
that actually was watching ice

283
00:15:00,030 --> 00:15:02,219
hockey, um, in one of the daydreams.

284
00:15:02,219 --> 00:15:05,069
But actually in a lot
of other markets we see.

285
00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:07,720
Soccer or football,
whatever, whichever we call.

286
00:15:08,170 --> 00:15:12,340
So, um, Pixar is very, very good in
kind of finding out different things.

287
00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:16,630
Sometime it's just about, you know,
like experience relevancy, but

288
00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:20,290
sometime it's more about the language
to make it easier, like conversion.

289
00:15:20,290 --> 00:15:21,880
Sometime it's about the respect.

290
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,910
Again, some words you actually
shouldn't be mentioned in that

291
00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:26,560
country because of the religions.

292
00:15:26,590 --> 00:15:27,310
Um, reason.

293
00:15:27,580 --> 00:15:28,540
So they remove that.

294
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,010
Or the sign you can see at the background
that we might not even pay attention to.

295
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,410
They will change that as
well, um, to assign or symbol

296
00:15:36,410 --> 00:15:37,730
that actually relate to them.

297
00:15:38,330 --> 00:15:42,500
Yeah, Pixar is very good examples of,
you know, even small things actually

298
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:47,660
create emotions, attachment, um, to the
products or the, the things that you

299
00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:49,850
create that is very important as well.

300
00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:50,120
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

301
00:15:51,449 --> 00:15:54,569
So, you know, in, in something like a
film like that, obviously it, it creates

302
00:15:54,569 --> 00:15:57,150
a lot more work for 'em 'cause they have
to kinda re-render the shots and things.

303
00:15:57,689 --> 00:16:00,810
But on the other hand it's, it's
a kind of one thing, once they've

304
00:16:00,810 --> 00:16:02,870
finished it, it sort of goes
out there in the world and it.

305
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,690
You know, it has different formats,
but it doesn't really change for

306
00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:10,740
other companies, um, where they're,
you know, it's, they're involved in,

307
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,950
uh, providing services and there's
many, many more kind of touch points.

308
00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:14,970
It's more complex.

309
00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:18,600
Um, you talked before about sort
of finding this, is there a kind

310
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,340
of sweet spot between how much you.

311
00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:22,819
You can do before it becomes unmanageable.

312
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:27,500
Mm. And, and, you know, by what
criteria do you decide okay,

313
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,209
that's, that's just enough?

314
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,430
Or, um, is it just a kind of budget thing?

315
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:34,819
Or is it, is there somewhere where
it's, um, 'cause I can imagine, so I

316
00:16:34,819 --> 00:16:38,449
guess where I'm going with this is I can
imagine if you make it too complex, you

317
00:16:38,510 --> 00:16:40,819
can run the risk of missing something.

318
00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:41,150
Mm. Right.

319
00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:43,550
The more complex it becomes,
the more chance of making

320
00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:45,020
mistakes in some respects.

321
00:16:45,435 --> 00:16:47,175
You know, so is there a
kind of bell curve there?

322
00:16:47,175 --> 00:16:48,885
And there's a sweet spot
in the, in the middle.

323
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:49,320
Chui Chui Tan: Mm-hmm.

324
00:16:50,325 --> 00:16:51,345
Um, very good questions.

325
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:52,400
And so.

326
00:16:53,954 --> 00:16:55,725
Always have to start
from somewhere, right?

327
00:16:55,725 --> 00:16:59,985
Like I think, um, I was talking to
a CPO of a company and then she said

328
00:16:59,985 --> 00:17:01,725
like, this is very overwhelming.

329
00:17:01,755 --> 00:17:03,135
Like, where do I even start?

330
00:17:03,135 --> 00:17:03,525
Right?

331
00:17:03,525 --> 00:17:04,490
Um, a c, C, right?

332
00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:06,014
That's CPO and, and so on.

333
00:17:06,345 --> 00:17:08,415
So I kind of like step
back and say, say okay.

334
00:17:08,415 --> 00:17:13,425
To me it's quite systematic and know how,
how to do it, when to stop and, and so on.

335
00:17:13,815 --> 00:17:16,095
Um, but I can imagine
that it's actually one.

336
00:17:16,905 --> 00:17:20,024
Hearing all the things I say, you
should consider this and that.

337
00:17:20,054 --> 00:17:22,514
It could sounds, sounds like, oh yeah.

338
00:17:22,544 --> 00:17:24,405
It's quite, um, quite scary.

339
00:17:24,405 --> 00:17:26,054
And so I think.

340
00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:32,610
One thing that, um, one misperception
I want to clear out for now, um, to

341
00:17:32,610 --> 00:17:36,840
start with is a lot of people have these
misperceptions that they only needs

342
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,290
to think about culturalization when
they are ready to go to a new market.

343
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,990
So they say, okay, don't talk to me first.

344
00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:47,130
Like, I will let me sort out my
UK market first, for example, and

345
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:51,240
then, um, I will get in touch again
once I ready for the new market.

346
00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:55,380
It's actually quite risky to do that
because, you know, ultimately your.

347
00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:59,660
Your service, it has to grow somewhere
because if you're only one market, you are

348
00:17:59,660 --> 00:18:04,160
actually go going to be quite restricted
in terms of your growth and like it or

349
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,900
not even you're not in other markets.

350
00:18:05,930 --> 00:18:09,860
You have users from other markets using
your products in this country or, yeah.

351
00:18:09,955 --> 00:18:10,115
Yeah.

352
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:14,870
You not even like organically
grow up, um, into other markets.

353
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,450
So it's very important for CEO and to
start with all the, um, any startup

354
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:24,889
to, to have this mindset of global
mindset so that you can set up your

355
00:18:24,889 --> 00:18:28,879
product and business proposition from
the very beginning that is easily

356
00:18:28,879 --> 00:18:32,720
adaptable in the future for other
markets, so that you don't have to

357
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,160
rebuild everything, so you don't have to
rethink your value propositions because

358
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,770
it's so hard to convert into other.

359
00:18:40,139 --> 00:18:42,419
Culture or add value.

360
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:44,520
So it's very important to have that.

361
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:47,429
And if you have that mindset
to kind of help you on your.

362
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:52,020
Very early strategy and also
throughout the process that you

363
00:18:52,020 --> 00:18:53,490
make decisions with your team.

364
00:18:53,550 --> 00:18:57,270
It's good to have all this mindset,
global mindset to start with.

365
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:59,730
So once you're ready to
go, it's actually easy.

366
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,530
You don't have to kind of go back game.

367
00:19:01,740 --> 00:19:02,100
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

368
00:19:02,130 --> 00:19:05,790
So you get sort of culturalization
debt otherwise where you kind

369
00:19:05,790 --> 00:19:07,170
of have prepared the ground.

370
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:07,710
Yeah.

371
00:19:07,715 --> 00:19:07,725
Yeah.

372
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:08,875
Chui Chui Tan: So there's one example.

373
00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:11,640
One, one project, a startup,
actually they did in the right

374
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,860
way, where I work with the, the.

375
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,700
Their health related startup, and
they know that because the investors

376
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:20,110
are from other countries, they say.

377
00:19:20,775 --> 00:19:24,345
You start off in the uk, but eventually
we want you to go to other places.

378
00:19:24,645 --> 00:19:29,655
So, because it is medical related, we
did some research in the uk, but all the

379
00:19:29,655 --> 00:19:32,385
outputs, very, very NHS focused, right?

380
00:19:32,715 --> 00:19:35,895
NHS way of like doing
this, um, you know, like.

381
00:19:36,155 --> 00:19:36,965
Pregnancy.

382
00:19:37,054 --> 00:19:41,585
You have, I think 16 weeks before you
start going checking and you, you call it,

383
00:19:41,764 --> 00:19:46,205
um, yeah, you have a very different way of
managing the whole pregnancy, for example.

384
00:19:46,504 --> 00:19:49,325
But once you move to other
country, it's very different.

385
00:19:49,325 --> 00:19:54,304
So if they set their value pro
position and also their content in

386
00:19:54,304 --> 00:19:59,075
a certain way, then it's actually
really hard in the future to do that.

387
00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:02,925
So, yeah, you need to think
about it from the very beginning.

388
00:20:02,925 --> 00:20:05,655
So you build a system in
the right way rather than.

389
00:20:06,705 --> 00:20:09,135
Really hard to kind of
convert in the future.

390
00:20:09,675 --> 00:20:11,745
So yeah, that is a very starting point.

391
00:20:11,835 --> 00:20:13,965
Andy Polaine: I was just wondering,
you know, out of all the things,

392
00:20:13,965 --> 00:20:17,985
'cause you talk in quite a lot of
detail about how to set up the research

393
00:20:17,985 --> 00:20:19,485
and how to work with local people.

394
00:20:19,485 --> 00:20:20,775
You have that sort of glocal.

395
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:24,480
Thing going on, which is sort of the
space you operate in of that sort of

396
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,310
global, local and the partnerships.

397
00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:29,550
There's a lot in there and it's very, very
useful, very, very tactical for people.

398
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:30,870
I can't wait to share it with my students.

399
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:34,350
I have a lot of international students,
actually mostly international students

400
00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,630
and some kinda really interested, and
they often want to do something around

401
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:40,650
their own communities, around their kind
of own ethnic or country communities.

402
00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:42,820
Um, and I think it would
be really, really useful.

403
00:20:42,910 --> 00:20:45,040
Obviously incredibly useful for companies.

404
00:20:45,550 --> 00:20:47,650
You know, there's been this whole
conversation in design recent about,

405
00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:49,330
you know, the death of UX research.

406
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:49,600
Mm-hmm.

407
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:53,680
And, you know, everything is, you know,
research is being in, in the product

408
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,490
world, research just sort of being pushed
under products and all the rest of it.

409
00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:00,430
But there's clearly a
case for two things here.

410
00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:04,810
One is I think you really lay out
the case for why actually having

411
00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:07,960
specialists who know what they're
doing is really important and not

412
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,150
just, you know, anyone can do research.

413
00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:13,580
Everyone should kind of do a little
bit, I think, but not everyone

414
00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:17,120
can do research at the level of
kind of cultural nuance there.

415
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,780
Can you talk a little bit about the
difference between someone like you

416
00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:24,890
doing this and you know, a product
owner or someone saying, well, you know,

417
00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:28,160
I, I, I can do some of that, or, you
know, we could just a couple of people.

418
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:29,000
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

419
00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:30,590
I think it's two layers, right?

420
00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:34,130
Like the thing you mentioned earlier,
like, we see so many out there,

421
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:35,840
like people saying researcher.

422
00:21:36,155 --> 00:21:38,765
Should be the one doing research
because other people can do

423
00:21:38,765 --> 00:21:40,355
it, but it's not to the extent.

424
00:21:40,565 --> 00:21:43,445
So that is the standard
research we are talking about.

425
00:21:43,445 --> 00:21:45,330
But when you add to the cultural.

426
00:21:45,945 --> 00:21:50,175
Elements, there's another layer,
which is even more complicated.

427
00:21:50,595 --> 00:21:53,024
Even the normal researcher might actually

428
00:21:53,085 --> 00:21:53,805
Andy Polaine: struggle with it.

429
00:21:53,865 --> 00:21:54,165
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

430
00:21:54,165 --> 00:21:59,055
The researcher that actually doing
the normal research might not even

431
00:21:59,115 --> 00:22:04,305
consider because it's a second layer
of complexity that you have, so yes.

432
00:22:04,775 --> 00:22:08,825
It comes with experience, but also
the mindset as well, um, in terms

433
00:22:08,825 --> 00:22:14,885
of how you see things slightly
differently and know what to look into.

434
00:22:15,245 --> 00:22:18,635
So it's from my experience or
from the very beginning when I do

435
00:22:18,635 --> 00:22:21,425
international research and I kind of.

436
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:23,130
I'm a researcher.

437
00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:26,370
I'm a good researcher, but then there's
some elements that I didn't know

438
00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:28,950
already if I compare it now that I know.

439
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:29,940
Okay.

440
00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:34,770
If you go to, for example, Japan, what
are the things that you, I already know

441
00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:40,260
some of the behaviors and the culture
elements that I know for this company,

442
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:42,810
because it's talking about working.

443
00:22:43,139 --> 00:22:46,169
Um, tools like, uh, work, work
management tools, and there are

444
00:22:46,199 --> 00:22:49,260
elements that I can bring in already
hierarchical and things like that.

445
00:22:49,679 --> 00:22:54,810
But when I work with, for example, Spotify
on in the same market, I know actually

446
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:59,939
it's a, it's a different one from Asana
when I work on work management tool, that

447
00:23:00,389 --> 00:23:05,639
the things that, the cultural insights
and nuances that is important for.

448
00:23:06,074 --> 00:23:09,855
Asana might not be for Spotify
anymore and vice versa and so on.

449
00:23:10,185 --> 00:23:15,135
So it's kind of, and then knowing those
kind of cultural nuances that might impact

450
00:23:15,524 --> 00:23:17,655
the people's behavior for this company.

451
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:22,170
Before you go into research, it's
very useful because then you actually

452
00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:25,530
have a better idea where you want
to dig deeper into it, how, what

453
00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:28,860
kind of questions you might want to
kind of put it into the discussion

454
00:23:28,860 --> 00:23:30,720
guide and prop more into as well.

455
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:30,780
Yeah.

456
00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:34,170
Because it's relevant to that
market, uh, knowing that the

457
00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:37,290
mobile data is very expensive from
that market, how is it going to

458
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:39,210
influence, you know, things like that.

459
00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:43,290
So, very beginning when I do my re um,
internet research, I didn't know that.

460
00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:47,010
I just like going in and trying
to hear any differences and new.

461
00:23:47,175 --> 00:23:51,195
Um, nuances that I can pick up so that
we can say, okay, this is very different.

462
00:23:51,765 --> 00:23:55,425
So that comes with experience in
terms of picking out what to do.

463
00:23:55,785 --> 00:23:59,475
But then, like my book was doing,
my book, this book is, there's big

464
00:23:59,475 --> 00:24:02,775
part of, it's very tactical, like
you say, it's practical in the thing.

465
00:24:03,075 --> 00:24:03,915
So even.

466
00:24:04,485 --> 00:24:07,485
I, I wanted to write another book,
more strategic, but I kind of like,

467
00:24:07,485 --> 00:24:09,435
maybe I find a balance onto that a sec.

468
00:24:10,665 --> 00:24:14,835
But this tactical bits, like, like I,
I got, uh, put in a book like from the

469
00:24:15,075 --> 00:24:20,715
project management side, like to choose
who you should kind of pick to work with

470
00:24:20,715 --> 00:24:26,745
to start with and also, um, when you kind
of plan for your timeline and timing.

471
00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:28,010
You have time differences.

472
00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:31,220
Not just that, but you have
different culture and festivals.

473
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:34,220
You have things that they
are, they care about Ramadan.

474
00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:37,800
That is happening, then you
need to know what to do and what

475
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,770
not to do, and organize your,
your researching differently.

476
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,520
And then to the point of how you brief
your moderators, your teams and, and

477
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:50,070
then how you brief interpreters and, um,
translators because they're important.

478
00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:53,970
So there are a lot small elements
within all this, um, is very important.

479
00:24:53,975 --> 00:24:54,205
Yeah.

480
00:24:55,205 --> 00:24:57,755
Andy Polaine: There's a thing that strikes
me this, and it's sort of unsurprising

481
00:24:57,755 --> 00:25:00,845
in, in many respects, you know, there's
a lot of relationship to accessibility.

482
00:25:00,845 --> 00:25:04,925
The of the, you know, it's very different
for someone who's a sighted person to.

483
00:25:05,745 --> 00:25:09,105
Design something for someone visually
impaired and kind of read all the

484
00:25:09,105 --> 00:25:11,895
literature and sort of try and do
that versus having someone who's

485
00:25:11,955 --> 00:25:15,015
visually impaired actually be on
that team and kind of tell them

486
00:25:15,015 --> 00:25:16,875
about the sort of reality of it.

487
00:25:17,325 --> 00:25:17,535
You know?

488
00:25:17,565 --> 00:25:19,935
'cause there's similar kind of,
I think, cultural relationship.

489
00:25:20,265 --> 00:25:23,325
There's a thing that struck me though
in that example where, you know, an

490
00:25:23,325 --> 00:25:26,355
oxo, I dunno if you know, the, the
people who make kind of kitchen Yeah.

491
00:25:26,415 --> 00:25:27,195
Um, utensils.

492
00:25:27,195 --> 00:25:27,255
Yeah.

493
00:25:27,525 --> 00:25:30,915
Sort of famously there's that idea of
if you make it good for those people.

494
00:25:31,425 --> 00:25:33,135
You actually make it
good for everyone else.

495
00:25:33,735 --> 00:25:36,705
Can you think of any examples where
you've, there's been like an adjustment

496
00:25:36,705 --> 00:25:40,365
or an insight that from, 'cause often
we're sort of talking about a company

497
00:25:40,665 --> 00:25:44,594
and like I said, it's often a US or
sort of European company moving into

498
00:25:44,594 --> 00:25:49,844
another culture where there has been
an insight in that, uh, ization moment

499
00:25:49,844 --> 00:25:52,274
where they've gone, actually, you know
what, that should flow the other way.

500
00:25:52,290 --> 00:25:56,879
What the changes we've made here for
this particular culture or this market

501
00:25:57,090 --> 00:26:00,389
would actually be really beneficial if
we kind of pushed it back to the, the

502
00:26:00,389 --> 00:26:01,950
original market and it goes the other way.

503
00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:05,879
Chui Chui Tan: Mm. So that is kind
of like the thing about identify, not

504
00:26:05,879 --> 00:26:07,710
just differences, but similarities.

505
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:07,800
Right.

506
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:09,490
Because that is quite similar.

507
00:26:09,490 --> 00:26:09,550
Yeah.

508
00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:12,880
Like you, you go to other markets
you say, oh, that is very different.

509
00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:15,850
And then can that apply to
any other markets as well?

510
00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:20,830
So that actually grow that, so for
example, with Spotify in the western

511
00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:25,030
markets, we have the individual plans
and, and family plans and so on.

512
00:26:25,030 --> 00:26:30,310
So you have monthly payment,
but in, in country, like we, we

513
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:32,170
identify like for example, um.

514
00:26:32,379 --> 00:26:36,310
Indonesia, for example, like, or
actually Philippines to start with.

515
00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:40,390
People actually care about paying
things as, think I mentioned in my book.

516
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:43,270
Like people like to pay
things in a small sachet.

517
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,800
Garlic, you buy too clothes.

518
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:45,070
S culture.

519
00:26:45,610 --> 00:26:47,379
Yeah, sachet mentality.

520
00:26:47,650 --> 00:26:51,190
Um, because they don't want to waste
it from, you know, from the history.

521
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:52,870
They don't, they so care about.

522
00:26:53,415 --> 00:26:56,805
Just taking what they want or
buying what they want or need.

523
00:26:57,405 --> 00:27:00,915
Um, so that mentality is still here,
even though the wealth is actually

524
00:27:00,915 --> 00:27:02,805
better, um, in a lot of, um, yeah.

525
00:27:02,835 --> 00:27:04,965
Areas, but because it's what they family.

526
00:27:05,415 --> 00:27:11,025
So this actually, this, um, this
behavior or mentality move into.

527
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:14,320
Digital as well when they
think about paying music.

528
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,680
But I'm not going to listen to music
in two days in this week or three

529
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,270
days next week because I'm busy.

530
00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:22,780
So, but I'm paying for the whole
month and I'm wasting, and I'm not

531
00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:24,370
taking the best value out that.

532
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,080
So they have this mentality.

533
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,980
So one of the things that came out after
that is how do we actually have this?

534
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:35,550
Propositions that help them to,
to overcome this Sasha mentality.

535
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:37,500
So they came up with a mini plan.

536
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:41,010
Mini plan is where you can
play per day or per week.

537
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:43,560
And you say, oh, next week I'm
gonna listen to music a lot.

538
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:45,060
I'm going to pay with that first.

539
00:27:45,150 --> 00:27:47,850
And then so they can pick and
choose, don't feel like they wasted.

540
00:27:48,090 --> 00:27:51,600
And then we realized actually there are a
lot, other markets actually have similar

541
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,490
mentality mindset, but also because the
way that they being paid monthly, uh.

542
00:27:57,554 --> 00:27:59,594
Their salary is not being paid monthly.

543
00:27:59,594 --> 00:28:01,034
It's biweekly or daily.

544
00:28:01,034 --> 00:28:01,094
Yeah.

545
00:28:01,395 --> 00:28:05,804
So this kind, this kind of proposition or
plan is actually useful for them as well.

546
00:28:06,165 --> 00:28:11,175
So we start to kind of, Spotify
started to kind of, um, look into which

547
00:28:11,175 --> 00:28:15,375
market is actually better, so kind of
spread out to other markets as well.

548
00:28:15,735 --> 00:28:17,355
So this is kind of examples.

549
00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:22,770
You look in one and actually there's a
similarities that you can actually can

550
00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:24,450
spread out to other markets as well.

551
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:28,620
It might not be all markets, but there are
certain markets that you can look into.

552
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,750
Andy Polaine: No, but I can imagine,
I mean, the thing that comes to mind

553
00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:34,350
for me, you know, here is the idea of,
of teenagers on a kind of prepay plan.

554
00:28:34,350 --> 00:28:34,440
Mm-hmm.

555
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,050
Who's maybe got kind of pocket money
in part that pocket money is to

556
00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:40,080
be spent on those kinds of things,
rather than the parents just kind of

557
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,780
paying the subscription or whatever
and, and that they might want to kind

558
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:44,400
of eke it out in a different way.

559
00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:45,120
I can see that.

560
00:28:45,514 --> 00:28:48,635
Chui Chui Tan: But of course it's
like they probably, there's options.

561
00:28:48,665 --> 00:28:50,254
Um, there's a possibility to do that.

562
00:28:50,254 --> 00:28:54,365
But as a business, you probably need
to see how much conversion would be

563
00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:58,024
like, you might capture the market
share like this little, but then

564
00:28:58,355 --> 00:29:01,835
it's actually not worthwhile because
there's complications on logistic and

565
00:29:01,835 --> 00:29:03,245
also licensing and things like that.

566
00:29:03,485 --> 00:29:06,815
So it's always balance between
the culture and also the business.

567
00:29:06,845 --> 00:29:08,705
Andy Polaine: So this brings me on to
the next thing actually, because you

568
00:29:08,705 --> 00:29:11,855
know, yes there is a lot of tactical
stuff in the book, but there's also.

569
00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:16,210
This whole kind of aspect of,
um, strategic research versus

570
00:29:16,210 --> 00:29:17,800
tactical research and how to.

571
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,030
How to sort of take one brief that's
very tactical and and be more strategic.

572
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,400
And I thought it was a very
kind of valuable thing actually.

573
00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:30,540
'cause I think a lot of, well, I hear
quite a lot of stories of people feeling

574
00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:33,630
like they're a bit boxed in by the brief
as a research and they really wanna do

575
00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:36,150
more strategic stuff, but can't, you
know, they're not getting the brief.

576
00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:36,669
Mm. Yeah.

577
00:29:37,149 --> 00:29:40,990
What's your approach to, to sort of
pushing upstream a little bit more?

578
00:29:41,050 --> 00:29:41,500
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

579
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:45,370
So yeah, I always say that it's as, it's
good to do tactical, but at the same

580
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:50,050
time, if you, if you want to being seen
more valuable to your stakeholders or

581
00:29:50,050 --> 00:29:54,580
to the business, it's actually good to
have input into the strategic insights.

582
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,629
Um, so examples that I, I actually
gave in the book as well is.

583
00:29:58,895 --> 00:30:03,665
That, you know, for example, if
you're asked or tasked to do a, um,

584
00:30:03,725 --> 00:30:08,555
tactical risk usability test, go and
test this pricing is, is working for

585
00:30:08,555 --> 00:30:10,955
this market or this payment is good.

586
00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:14,615
Um, you could do that, but at
the same time you could also.

587
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:17,270
I want to see like sneak
in is the right word, but

588
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:18,770
Andy Polaine: I think it's fair enough

589
00:30:19,399 --> 00:30:23,570
Chui Chui Tan: you can put in some,
include some, some strategic information

590
00:30:23,570 --> 00:30:28,190
so that you can get a more tax
strategic insight for the um, company.

591
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,419
So for example, talking about
pricing and also um, like how they

592
00:30:32,419 --> 00:30:34,250
go about paying so you can actually.

593
00:30:35,005 --> 00:30:40,225
Understanding how people in that culture
view value, um, their willingness,

594
00:30:40,675 --> 00:30:44,905
willingness to pay what actually, um,
increase their willingness to pay.

595
00:30:44,905 --> 00:30:48,295
So for example, in India,
there's this culture of I need

596
00:30:48,295 --> 00:30:49,585
to share with other people.

597
00:30:49,585 --> 00:30:54,295
So anything I paid that I can be
shared with other people, like paying

598
00:30:54,295 --> 00:30:57,625
for video streaming is actually
more willingness than music because.

599
00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:00,110
Video, your whole family can see it.

600
00:31:00,110 --> 00:31:02,390
You don't feel like, yeah,
you're being selfish.

601
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:02,780
Yeah.

602
00:31:02,990 --> 00:31:03,680
You pay for it.

603
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,780
Everyone can, but music is personal.

604
00:31:05,780 --> 00:31:10,220
Should I pay it because, um, it's
only me going to, um, use it and,

605
00:31:10,550 --> 00:31:12,500
uh, enjoy the, the benefits of it.

606
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:14,660
So there's all this value.

607
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,970
Uh, how this perceive value is very
strategic because it's not just about,

608
00:31:21,180 --> 00:31:27,210
um, information is inform your pricing
strategy, but also inform your, your

609
00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:31,800
other propositions that you can put
it in on how to make things more

610
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:36,060
appealing to them to want to be able
to pay off, uh, can justify to pay.

611
00:31:36,330 --> 00:31:40,260
So you in, you can include all
those questions and to understand

612
00:31:40,590 --> 00:31:43,290
the reason behind of their
decisions of those pricing.

613
00:31:43,929 --> 00:31:47,889
Decisions that they made
and start gathering that.

614
00:31:47,949 --> 00:31:52,870
Um, every single tactical research you
did, you gather some strategy insights.

615
00:31:53,139 --> 00:31:57,219
As you grow them, you actually can
start to see bigger pictures in that

616
00:31:57,219 --> 00:32:01,000
instance and these other things that
might open up to the businesses say,

617
00:32:01,030 --> 00:32:02,679
oh, we did never heard about that.

618
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:07,149
Maybe we should do more research in
that area so that we can do that.

619
00:32:07,510 --> 00:32:09,490
So yeah, that is kind of a trick.

620
00:32:09,705 --> 00:32:13,610
Really to, to do more than
you ask to show yourself.

621
00:32:13,650 --> 00:32:15,735
Andy Polaine: I really like to, I
mean, I think sneaking it in is, is

622
00:32:15,735 --> 00:32:18,255
fine to say, 'cause you know, I like
the idea that you're not asking for

623
00:32:18,255 --> 00:32:20,985
permission here really, and that
you're speaking to someone for, I

624
00:32:20,985 --> 00:32:22,215
don't know, for an hour or whatever.

625
00:32:22,215 --> 00:32:25,005
Anyway, you might as well kind
of ask 'em some of that stuff.

626
00:32:25,410 --> 00:32:29,820
But also this idea that you
dunno what you don't know, right?

627
00:32:29,820 --> 00:32:32,760
So if you're just asking some
stuff, you, and it's very narrow.

628
00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:35,610
You, you never have that experience
of finding out stuff you didn't know.

629
00:32:35,610 --> 00:32:38,490
And by including some of that strategic
stuff, I guess you can go back and

630
00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:40,650
go, well here's the answer to the
questions you asked me to kind of

631
00:32:40,650 --> 00:32:44,970
find out, but actually I've, here's
some other stuff which suggests maybe

632
00:32:44,975 --> 00:32:47,790
we were asking the wrong questions
or there's something else out there

633
00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:49,170
that we didn't even kind of consider.

634
00:32:49,230 --> 00:32:49,410
Yeah.

635
00:32:49,710 --> 00:32:51,660
Um, and that's very powerful and
I think that's really powerful.

636
00:32:51,660 --> 00:32:51,870
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

637
00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:53,105
And also you, you.

638
00:32:53,745 --> 00:32:58,814
You don't have to rely on that specific
user testing sessions to gather this.

639
00:32:58,965 --> 00:33:02,355
Yeah, you can do some desk research if
you are actually interested in services.

640
00:33:02,655 --> 00:33:04,695
I think very interesting
and about pricing.

641
00:33:04,695 --> 00:33:09,014
Maybe I can do a bit of desk research
myself to find out is there any more

642
00:33:09,014 --> 00:33:12,375
questions that I, or angle that I
haven't thought of that I should bring

643
00:33:12,375 --> 00:33:17,054
it in to help you to guide that as well
as a starting point of conversations.

644
00:33:17,365 --> 00:33:20,035
Andy Polaine: Yeah, when I hear
all of this, and I know this is,

645
00:33:20,035 --> 00:33:21,175
this is a problem for my students.

646
00:33:21,175 --> 00:33:23,875
I've seen it, you know, firsthand
in projects I've worked on.

647
00:33:24,355 --> 00:33:26,095
Uh, it seems to be sort
of massive problem.

648
00:33:26,095 --> 00:33:26,515
Now.

649
00:33:26,935 --> 00:33:29,725
A lot of research teams, they'll
use some kind of platform.

650
00:33:29,725 --> 00:33:33,715
A lot of them use Notion as the storehouse
with their stuff, and part of the

651
00:33:33,715 --> 00:33:34,975
problem with something like Notion is.

652
00:33:35,504 --> 00:33:38,445
It's USP is the kind of lack of
friction to make a page and make

653
00:33:38,445 --> 00:33:39,915
a sub page and sub sub page.

654
00:33:40,365 --> 00:33:42,705
It's really easy, but that's
also, its Achilles heel, right?

655
00:33:42,735 --> 00:33:44,385
'cause everyone can just
chuck stuff in there.

656
00:33:44,774 --> 00:33:46,770
How much time do you spend on.

657
00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:50,490
I dunno if this is really research
ops, but you know, how much time do you

658
00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:56,400
spend on the kind of curation and making
sure that, you know, the data is Yeah.

659
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,090
Is curated and whether it's kind of
tagged or placed or kind of stored in

660
00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:03,450
a way that people can access it and,
and that it makes sense and so forth.

661
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,590
'cause a thing I hear quite often is
teams do a whole bunch of research.

662
00:34:08,260 --> 00:34:11,200
And then it sort of gets forgotten
about and the company just carry on

663
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,520
doing whatever they're doing anyway.

664
00:34:12,610 --> 00:34:15,639
And then you get caught in that catch
22 because of, well, there's not

665
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:18,460
really much value in the research and
it, it's partly 'cause they didn't

666
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,050
bother to kind of connect that up.

667
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,389
You know, they, they're faced with a
load of data, but they don't really know

668
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:26,950
how to do the, both the synthesis and
analysis and analysis and synthesis part.

669
00:34:27,125 --> 00:34:30,755
As well as the communication part of it
for it to be useful at the other end.

670
00:34:30,844 --> 00:34:30,965
Mm-hmm.

671
00:34:31,025 --> 00:34:32,405
They sort of get a bit disconnected.

672
00:34:32,435 --> 00:34:32,795
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

673
00:34:33,185 --> 00:34:35,915
I think there are two parts
in your question, isn't it?

674
00:34:35,915 --> 00:34:39,245
One is presenting it and then
because when you're creating

675
00:34:39,245 --> 00:34:43,114
an output, you can straightaway
create something that is actually.

676
00:34:43,545 --> 00:34:47,025
Usable right away and then
easily to, to be stored.

677
00:34:47,055 --> 00:34:50,625
And then the second part is like how
do you, where or how do you store it?

678
00:34:51,075 --> 00:34:52,875
So the first part is very important.

679
00:34:52,875 --> 00:34:57,165
Like in my book, I didn't talk about like
how to present in the nice way and like

680
00:34:57,165 --> 00:35:01,245
graphics and things like that because that
is quite standard, um, like storytelling.

681
00:35:01,245 --> 00:35:04,275
But the other parts that is
really important when it comes

682
00:35:04,275 --> 00:35:08,445
into reporting culturalization
related information is too.

683
00:35:09,315 --> 00:35:14,835
To be able to kinda link the output that
you get from your participants, make it

684
00:35:14,835 --> 00:35:19,395
relatable to your, uh, stakeholders so
they are more able to kind of receive it.

685
00:35:19,605 --> 00:35:24,285
So you, um, the example is like,
for example, you spend 10 hours,

686
00:35:24,285 --> 00:35:27,930
20 hours in doing research and
looking into all data, everything.

687
00:35:27,930 --> 00:35:32,475
And then the stakeholders is only have an
hour for them to understand and receive

688
00:35:32,475 --> 00:35:36,915
it and to kind of feel what you feel
about the, the, the locals and everything.

689
00:35:36,915 --> 00:35:38,865
So you have to empathize them.

690
00:35:39,585 --> 00:35:42,525
Just to know where they're
coming from and the decisions

691
00:35:42,525 --> 00:35:44,025
they need to make and and so on.

692
00:35:44,295 --> 00:35:47,955
So you use Metaphor for example, that
there are a few tricks that I use, you

693
00:35:47,955 --> 00:35:49,665
use Metaphor that they can relate to.

694
00:35:49,875 --> 00:35:53,205
You use things that they're familiar
with, like in this market you do this,

695
00:35:53,205 --> 00:35:57,015
but in the other market they actually
doing this because you know, like

696
00:35:57,015 --> 00:36:01,605
kind of relate them and then you can,
depending on the stakeholders and how

697
00:36:01,605 --> 00:36:03,300
much they want, the detail is because it.

698
00:36:04,125 --> 00:36:07,065
Every single individuals
actually want different thing.

699
00:36:07,065 --> 00:36:10,125
I work with a chief growth officer
that will want every single

700
00:36:10,125 --> 00:36:13,634
stories of each participants as
well as the high level stories.

701
00:36:13,845 --> 00:36:16,605
So they want the details and
big, but then some of them just

702
00:36:16,605 --> 00:36:20,475
want to know the main story, just
tell main story and what to do.

703
00:36:20,775 --> 00:36:24,705
So you need to pick and choose which one,
and similarities and differences as well.

704
00:36:25,455 --> 00:36:28,995
So you can have a big report,
you can a summary, you can have

705
00:36:28,995 --> 00:36:30,795
highlights and things like that.

706
00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:33,525
You want to be able to store it easily.

707
00:36:34,515 --> 00:36:38,504
The second bit of a storing is very,
depending on the company I work with,

708
00:36:38,565 --> 00:36:40,185
they might have their own way of doing it.

709
00:36:40,185 --> 00:36:45,105
So I probably wouldn't be as much, uh,
influence in terms of how they do that.

710
00:36:45,435 --> 00:36:49,785
But if I get to kind of get into the
smaller company, like talking about

711
00:36:49,785 --> 00:36:53,955
how they should do that, um, a lot of
times I kind of make sure that they.

712
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,590
Have a easier way to kind of put
in similarities and differences.

713
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,210
And also as the new markets that
they do non-research in, there's a

714
00:37:03,210 --> 00:37:08,100
easier way for them to add it in so
that you make the insights become

715
00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:09,990
a clearer puzzles if you like.

716
00:37:10,050 --> 00:37:10,320
Andy Polaine: Yeah,

717
00:37:10,590 --> 00:37:14,700
Chui Chui Tan: so think about it like you
have insights from research A, you put

718
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:18,300
it in a few puzzles, and then you have
research B, you have more, so you kinda

719
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:20,220
add the whole picture bigger and bigger.

720
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,080
So find a way to do that as well.

721
00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:22,710
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

722
00:37:23,310 --> 00:37:26,610
You talk about a whole range of methods
actually in the book and you know, there's

723
00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:30,990
some qualitative and quantitative, you
know, there is that, that big picture

724
00:37:30,990 --> 00:37:34,890
sometimes, like what's the top five
or what's the one number or, or that

725
00:37:34,890 --> 00:37:36,509
kind of stuff can be often the case.

726
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,710
I, my experience being, the thing
I always say is that I think that

727
00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:42,390
stories are what convince people.

728
00:37:42,709 --> 00:37:42,919
Right.

729
00:37:42,919 --> 00:37:44,270
And can they stick with people?

730
00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:46,580
And you talked about metaphors,
and I love metaphors, and those are

731
00:37:46,580 --> 00:37:48,740
the things that people carry with
them and they're really compelling.

732
00:37:49,069 --> 00:37:52,100
But the, the numbers or the sort
of facts and figures give people to

733
00:37:52,189 --> 00:37:53,959
permission to believe in the story.

734
00:37:54,020 --> 00:37:56,180
But if you just have the numbers on their
own, you're kind of missing a whole lot.

735
00:37:56,180 --> 00:37:58,250
And if you just have the story on
their own, you're also missing.

736
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,370
Has that been your experience or
is, is your experience different?

737
00:38:01,759 --> 00:38:03,799
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah,
um, it's very much so.

738
00:38:04,009 --> 00:38:08,060
I think if you do qualitative
research, then story is very

739
00:38:08,060 --> 00:38:09,379
good because you have all the.

740
00:38:09,775 --> 00:38:13,135
Photos and things like that to
accompany it so people can see,

741
00:38:13,165 --> 00:38:14,575
oh, this is their environment.

742
00:38:14,575 --> 00:38:17,695
Rather than, like you say over
Christmas, like if you take a photo of

743
00:38:17,695 --> 00:38:19,285
Christmas, it's like snow and everything.

744
00:38:19,285 --> 00:38:23,485
And then you say Christmas in Australia
is like barbecue and things like that.

745
00:38:23,845 --> 00:38:26,155
So it's, you can actually see and feel it.

746
00:38:26,545 --> 00:38:27,085
Um, so.

747
00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:30,060
Qualitative, sorry, is very important.

748
00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:35,730
Sometimes, um, people tend, uh, some
clients or some researcher tends to

749
00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:39,630
want to say, two out of six participants
say that, or four out of five.

750
00:38:39,630 --> 00:38:39,750
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

751
00:38:40,170 --> 00:38:41,700
Chui Chui Tan: That sometime
is not strong enough.

752
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:45,540
Sometimes it's good indication, but it's
not strong enough to say the figure.

753
00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:49,200
So unless you have statistic
that you can pull in from.

754
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,259
Internal statistic or data that you have.

755
00:38:52,259 --> 00:38:55,980
You work with the companies data
scientists to say, can we pull

756
00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:57,450
informations about this and that?

757
00:38:57,509 --> 00:39:01,140
And then say, actually this
is aligned with our, our data

758
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:03,569
internally as well as your stories.

759
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:04,235
Then that will be.

760
00:39:05,025 --> 00:39:05,985
Very powerful.

761
00:39:06,255 --> 00:39:09,105
Or sometimes you say, actually
it's not aligned, but why?

762
00:39:09,435 --> 00:39:13,005
Then the why is really interesting
and you say, ah, maybe because when

763
00:39:13,005 --> 00:39:16,395
they're doing that, we collecting
data, we call it in a different way.

764
00:39:16,395 --> 00:39:19,904
There's other way or the other
way around, so, so that kind of

765
00:39:19,904 --> 00:39:21,825
data is really, really useful.

766
00:39:22,275 --> 00:39:26,924
If you only do quantitative, then
you have a lot of data, you have

767
00:39:26,924 --> 00:39:28,335
a lot of numbering and so on.

768
00:39:28,694 --> 00:39:30,615
But there again, you lack of this.

769
00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:35,130
Story, it's very hard to create
a story with just quantitative.

770
00:39:35,220 --> 00:39:35,280
Yeah.

771
00:39:35,580 --> 00:39:40,050
So a lot of times, um, actually when
we see quantitative is useful is

772
00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:42,120
when it pair up with qualitative.

773
00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:42,210
Yeah.

774
00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:43,410
Do one.

775
00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:48,120
The order could be different from where
you are at that stage and how much you

776
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,280
know, and also the scope of the research.

777
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,290
Sometime you do quant
first and then you do qual.

778
00:39:52,290 --> 00:39:53,520
Sometimes it's the other way around.

779
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,360
Makes more sense.

780
00:39:55,050 --> 00:39:55,320
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

781
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,530
Relying on quant data on its
own seems like a great way to

782
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:01,260
completely miss cultural context.

783
00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:01,440
Yeah.

784
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,720
Because you're not getting
that, uh, human part.

785
00:40:04,020 --> 00:40:04,950
Chui Chui Tan: You can explain why.

786
00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:06,120
Andy Polaine: Yeah.

787
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,360
Apart from, apart from hiring you of
course and buying your book, what, what

788
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,350
are the kind of first steps if you are,
I know with you UX search or if you're

789
00:40:13,350 --> 00:40:18,540
kind of in the C-suite of a, of a company,
what would be the sort of the first small

790
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:20,370
step they could do in this direction?

791
00:40:20,785 --> 00:40:23,785
Chui Chui Tan: Um, I always say
that when I go into a new company,

792
00:40:23,785 --> 00:40:26,785
like, oh, where do we even start
thing, which I want to come back,

793
00:40:26,875 --> 00:40:30,265
uh, about the CPO that mentioned
overwhelming very quickly later on.

794
00:40:30,775 --> 00:40:34,765
Um, but if you are kind of very
beginning of that, um, you can

795
00:40:34,765 --> 00:40:36,385
say, okay, we have limited budget.

796
00:40:36,445 --> 00:40:39,355
Like we can just go out and
do big research and so on.

797
00:40:39,355 --> 00:40:39,415
Yeah.

798
00:40:39,745 --> 00:40:43,255
Actually relevant to dissipate
or, um, conversations is like

799
00:40:43,405 --> 00:40:44,520
you can actually start small.

800
00:40:45,205 --> 00:40:45,655
Right.

801
00:40:45,805 --> 00:40:49,225
First of all, it is actually very
important if you haven't done so in your

802
00:40:49,225 --> 00:40:54,415
organization, is to sit down and bring
in all the knowledge you have about.

803
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,010
A market first, um, saying,
okay, we have a bit of data.

804
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,410
Let's say you're already in that
market but it's not doing very well,

805
00:41:01,410 --> 00:41:05,970
and so on and go through all the data
informations you might be able to collect.

806
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,660
Is there any other way you can
think about how you analyze data?

807
00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:12,720
Because sometimes data is that
you can find a different way to

808
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:16,380
analyze them so that it's actually
become more useful for you.

809
00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:18,540
Um, all the insights and everything.

810
00:41:18,915 --> 00:41:23,265
In my book, I have a, uh, four
buckets, um, exercise that I mentioned.

811
00:41:23,535 --> 00:41:27,825
Mm. That is very useful to bring all the
knowledge together, all the assumptions

812
00:41:27,825 --> 00:41:31,275
people have, especially C-level say,
yeah, I think they work like this and

813
00:41:31,275 --> 00:41:32,925
we should just do decisions like that.

814
00:41:32,925 --> 00:41:37,605
And, and a lot of them are very subjective
view or stereotype or certain thing.

815
00:41:38,345 --> 00:41:39,815
So bring all of them together.

816
00:41:40,085 --> 00:41:41,645
Go through that exercise.

817
00:41:41,675 --> 00:41:45,215
Four buckets is non facts,
strong hypothesis, weak

818
00:41:45,215 --> 00:41:47,165
hypothesis, and then unknowns.

819
00:41:47,225 --> 00:41:52,265
Put them in the right buckets, but
make sure that the facts are in facts.

820
00:41:52,265 --> 00:41:54,755
So, questions about the sources.

821
00:41:55,025 --> 00:41:55,505
Um, the.

822
00:41:55,690 --> 00:41:56,770
Um, validity.

823
00:41:56,799 --> 00:41:56,890
Mm-hmm.

824
00:41:57,130 --> 00:42:01,000
Like how long ago that this insights was
provided, because things might change.

825
00:42:01,029 --> 00:42:05,710
And so to make sure that anything in
effect you can actually take actions,

826
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,279
that that's why you have to make
sure they are really, really sure.

827
00:42:09,490 --> 00:42:13,000
If you're not sure, put them in a strong
hypothesis because then you'll kind

828
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,140
of find certain way to say how else
we can validate or invalidate that.

829
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:17,200
Yeah.

830
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:18,620
And so on.

831
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:18,680
Yeah.

832
00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:20,300
Start from there.

833
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:24,770
And then you have informations about do we
even need to do research or what type of

834
00:42:24,770 --> 00:42:26,660
research, how big the research should be.

835
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:30,710
If we call it all this and we do
one off research, could we answer

836
00:42:30,770 --> 00:42:32,450
a lot of these questions already?

837
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,070
Can we do that stretch a bit?

838
00:42:34,070 --> 00:42:35,060
Budget to do that?

839
00:42:35,060 --> 00:42:35,120
Yeah.

840
00:42:35,540 --> 00:42:39,560
So it's kind of like finding the
balance, um, of all of them and

841
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:40,940
see where that actually comes in.

842
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:42,530
It doesn't have to be like.

843
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,970
Big, um, overwhelming.

844
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:46,230
It could start somewhere.

845
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,070
And if, let's say you say, oh, we
have very small teams, and oh, this

846
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:51,490
insight is enough for us to mix.

847
00:42:52,170 --> 00:42:54,390
A roadmap for now, and that is fine.

848
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:57,870
And then you probably see some growth,
leave it and then see some growth.

849
00:42:57,930 --> 00:43:00,450
And then you might want to focus
on other markets in the meantime

850
00:43:00,450 --> 00:43:01,830
and then come back to this again.

851
00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:03,810
It's fine, um, to do that.

852
00:43:03,810 --> 00:43:07,410
It's a progressive journey so you
don't have to make sure that you do

853
00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:09,870
everything right, um, in one goal.

854
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:13,320
Andy Polaine: So how did you,
uh, respond to the CPO who said

855
00:43:13,799 --> 00:43:15,029
this is all too overwhelming?

856
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:15,990
Chui Chui Tan: It's so interesting.

857
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:17,745
Actually, I have one
hour session with her.

858
00:43:18,625 --> 00:43:22,555
After that, and we go back to the
questions like there were in a few

859
00:43:22,555 --> 00:43:26,245
countries already and just like,
how do you even start choosing which

860
00:43:26,245 --> 00:43:28,495
country to go into and to focus next?

861
00:43:28,795 --> 00:43:32,665
Just like, uh, don't know, like maybe
we just guess and because this language

862
00:43:32,665 --> 00:43:36,205
is easier for us to get into and just
like, okay, there's another exercise

863
00:43:36,205 --> 00:43:37,945
I normally do with client to choose.

864
00:43:38,215 --> 00:43:39,475
This is not in the book actually.

865
00:43:39,565 --> 00:43:43,134
Um, which market is actually,
uh, for you to go into?

866
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,000
Either to launch or to focus on,
uh, to put more money to focus on.

867
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,690
So it's essentially, it's looking
into potentials and opportunities

868
00:43:51,750 --> 00:43:54,960
versus, um, efforts and frictions.

869
00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:58,950
Um, and then within that there are a
few elements that you need to look into,

870
00:43:59,370 --> 00:44:01,110
um, to make sure that it's correct.

871
00:44:01,350 --> 00:44:03,210
So yeah, I mentioned about that.

872
00:44:03,210 --> 00:44:05,610
And then we kind of go back
step for backwards as well.

873
00:44:05,610 --> 00:44:09,000
And because the questions that she
asked, um, during the sessions was.

874
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:13,380
We have all this data, we want
the market or do the marketing,

875
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:14,460
how do we do the marketing?

876
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:16,050
I just like, well step back.

877
00:44:16,050 --> 00:44:17,700
Why do you want to do the marketing?

878
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,560
What insights and things like that.

879
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,720
So a lot of companies very focused on a
specific question, what should we do now?

880
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:27,060
Like, do, should we just
do marketing very well?

881
00:44:27,060 --> 00:44:28,410
Should we just change the products?

882
00:44:28,410 --> 00:44:32,070
And, but there are a lot of things
you need to step up back and ask

883
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,170
the right question and to do that.

884
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,040
Andy Polaine: Yeah, yeah, you can
kind of see the pressure for kind of

885
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,690
speed and, uh, let's just do a thing.

886
00:44:39,690 --> 00:44:40,860
What's the simple thing we need to do?

887
00:44:40,860 --> 00:44:43,230
And, and then we'll just market
it and that, and that's it.

888
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,100
Yeah, hey look, I could talk to you for
ages about this 'cause I find it really

889
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:50,790
fascinating and, you know, people and
cultures always very fascinating too.

890
00:44:51,150 --> 00:44:52,530
But we are coming up for time.

891
00:44:52,980 --> 00:44:55,260
The show is called Power of
10 'cause it's based on this

892
00:44:55,260 --> 00:44:56,820
Eames film called Powers of 10.

893
00:44:56,820 --> 00:45:00,540
It's about the size of relative
size of things in the universe and

894
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,390
you know, people can Google it and
find it's, it's really fascinating.

895
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:06,060
But it's really about this idea of
operating at different zoom levels.

896
00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:08,550
And I think one of the things you've
been talking about is, you know, there

897
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:12,960
are cultural things and they are sort
of evidenced in very detailed ways.

898
00:45:13,254 --> 00:45:16,225
You know, and I think it's always
interesting in a mostly globalized world

899
00:45:16,225 --> 00:45:19,674
where you go somewhere else, especially
in Europe, I goes to another European

900
00:45:19,674 --> 00:45:22,285
country and it's kind of like the
same as every other European country

901
00:45:22,555 --> 00:45:26,214
except for small things like, you know,
the post boxes or the shape of milk

902
00:45:26,214 --> 00:45:27,865
bottles and, and those kinds of things.

903
00:45:27,924 --> 00:45:29,815
And cultural norms, of course.

904
00:45:29,904 --> 00:45:35,100
So the, the very final question is, uh,
what one small thing is either overlooked

905
00:45:35,305 --> 00:45:38,935
or could be redesigned that would
have an outsized effect on the world?

906
00:45:39,290 --> 00:45:43,279
Chui Chui Tan: Um, I think for me it's
this notion I haven't really, I have this,

907
00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:47,390
this thinking, but I haven't actually
expanded myself to see what does that

908
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:50,360
actually mean, because that might be a
second book that I want to write about.

909
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:55,009
Cultural elements, um, not just
on business, but also politics

910
00:45:55,009 --> 00:45:56,509
and, you know, culture in sense.

911
00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:00,980
But I think it's the notions
of we are all human, right?

912
00:46:01,009 --> 00:46:04,190
Um, we are on the same species
and it feels like we are

913
00:46:04,190 --> 00:46:05,690
very, very, very different.

914
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:06,620
Which is true.

915
00:46:06,650 --> 00:46:08,330
We are different in certain ways.

916
00:46:08,330 --> 00:46:08,990
One country.

917
00:46:09,450 --> 00:46:12,510
Share the same things for the
other, but not the other thing,

918
00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:13,890
the other culture elements.

919
00:46:13,890 --> 00:46:18,480
So there are differences for sure,
but we are all the same human species.

920
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,490
The reason we are different is because.

921
00:46:21,075 --> 00:46:23,535
Hundred thousand, hundred
thousand years ago.

922
00:46:23,535 --> 00:46:29,355
Like we kind of ancestor kind of evolved
very differently in different environment.

923
00:46:29,355 --> 00:46:34,065
So that changed their, our gene, their
skin color, their, where everything

924
00:46:34,515 --> 00:46:36,735
that we have, um, and the language.

925
00:46:36,735 --> 00:46:43,035
And then, I don't know, when the whole
border things start off, um, and people

926
00:46:43,035 --> 00:46:44,775
start to become, oh, you are there.

927
00:46:44,775 --> 00:46:45,255
I'm here.

928
00:46:45,255 --> 00:46:46,065
And you know.

929
00:46:46,740 --> 00:46:51,570
The human evolutions, I guess, and it's,
it's all start from the same thing, but

930
00:46:51,570 --> 00:46:53,130
it's just evolved slightly differently.

931
00:46:53,130 --> 00:46:56,970
Just like a family member,
you go to a different culture

932
00:46:56,970 --> 00:46:58,800
to grow up different way.

933
00:46:59,460 --> 00:47:02,400
Then your cousin might be
slightly different from you, but

934
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:03,960
they're also the same family.

935
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:04,650
You see what I mean?

936
00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:09,840
So I'm kind of like, especially in
this world that so many discriminations

937
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,470
or you know, the culture people, I'm
just thinking about actually we are,

938
00:47:13,740 --> 00:47:16,470
we are different, but we actually
also the same, the reason we are

939
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:18,375
different is because if evolutions, um.

940
00:47:18,805 --> 00:47:19,915
Slightly differently.

941
00:47:19,915 --> 00:47:22,464
I think it's kind of like, I think
the small thing that you're talking

942
00:47:22,464 --> 00:47:26,274
about is, is actually quite big
in the notions of we're at the

943
00:47:26,274 --> 00:47:27,995
same, but you see what I mean?

944
00:47:28,105 --> 00:47:31,044
It's really hard to, um,
describe that at the moment.

945
00:47:31,044 --> 00:47:31,105
Yeah.

946
00:47:31,105 --> 00:47:35,904
But I just, it's, it's the, it's
the whole thing of we kind of need

947
00:47:35,904 --> 00:47:40,225
to be just emphasize why people are
different and see, be open about

948
00:47:40,225 --> 00:47:44,095
it rather than criticize each other
for the differences that we have.

949
00:47:45,015 --> 00:47:45,525
Yeah.

950
00:47:45,765 --> 00:47:48,315
Andy Polaine: It's like when astronauts
talk about the overview effect, you

951
00:47:48,315 --> 00:47:51,315
know, when you, they see the world,
you know, from space and it's,

952
00:47:51,885 --> 00:47:53,085
you can't see any borders, right?

953
00:47:53,085 --> 00:47:53,175
Yes.

954
00:47:53,355 --> 00:47:57,675
And all you just see is this fragile
thing protected by this fragile layer

955
00:47:57,675 --> 00:47:59,325
of atmosphere that keeps us all alive.

956
00:47:59,330 --> 00:48:00,120
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah, exactly.

957
00:48:00,180 --> 00:48:01,400
And it changes and we breathe.

958
00:48:01,815 --> 00:48:02,925
It's the same airways.

959
00:48:03,045 --> 00:48:05,865
We drink the same water, sea, sea water.

960
00:48:05,895 --> 00:48:07,545
You know, it's, it's the same.

961
00:48:07,545 --> 00:48:08,565
It's just, um.

962
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:09,330
Yeah.

963
00:48:09,359 --> 00:48:14,460
If we have all those in that perceptions,
we cannot accept, everyone will.

964
00:48:14,609 --> 00:48:18,299
There's no right or wrong way to do
things Everyone's, it's everyone's way

965
00:48:18,299 --> 00:48:20,160
to do things, so be more acceptable.

966
00:48:20,895 --> 00:48:22,964
Uh, open to learn about that.

967
00:48:23,205 --> 00:48:24,435
Andy Polaine: That is a
very big, small thing.

968
00:48:24,495 --> 00:48:24,884
Chui Chui Tan: I know.

969
00:48:24,884 --> 00:48:25,274
I'm sorry.

970
00:48:25,424 --> 00:48:25,725
Um, so where can

971
00:48:25,725 --> 00:48:28,424
Andy Polaine: people find you online and
where can people find your book as well?

972
00:48:28,725 --> 00:48:32,625
Chui Chui Tan: I'm most active in on
LinkedIn, so, um, can find me on my name

973
00:48:32,714 --> 00:48:35,444
and connect if you like, or get in touch.

974
00:48:35,685 --> 00:48:38,325
Um, I, my website is beo.global.

975
00:48:38,355 --> 00:48:40,274
BEYO do global.

976
00:48:40,605 --> 00:48:45,015
Um, I have some content and also
all the works I have done, um,

977
00:48:45,045 --> 00:48:49,035
in the past that, um, because
every end of each year I reach.

978
00:48:49,785 --> 00:48:53,565
A summary round up for everyth,
things that I have done for that year.

979
00:48:53,925 --> 00:48:56,085
So I didn't do it first year,
and then I started doing that

980
00:48:56,085 --> 00:48:56,955
for the rest of the year.

981
00:48:56,955 --> 00:48:59,025
So I have probably have
five, six of them there.

982
00:48:59,385 --> 00:49:02,415
So it's very details of
every work that I have done.

983
00:49:02,895 --> 00:49:08,535
Um, and then my book, I have this book
here, um, it's on, you can find on Amazon.

984
00:49:08,875 --> 00:49:15,115
Um, on your, uh, your area or country
or regions or Apple books, if you don't

985
00:49:15,115 --> 00:49:17,065
really want to buy it from Amazon,

986
00:49:17,305 --> 00:49:19,810
Andy Polaine: I'll put all the links in
the show notes for people to find you.

987
00:49:19,810 --> 00:49:20,170
Thank you.

988
00:49:20,170 --> 00:49:22,890
Are you active on any other socials
anywhere or is it linked in this person?

989
00:49:22,910 --> 00:49:23,290
No, I'm just

990
00:49:23,410 --> 00:49:23,875
Chui Chui Tan: LinkedIn for now.

991
00:49:23,875 --> 00:49:26,035
I, I'm on Twitter, but I don't tweet.

992
00:49:26,095 --> 00:49:27,895
Um, where else, I dunno.

993
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:31,735
I'm, I'm, I'm kind of in
between social and also.

994
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:31,860
Yeah.

995
00:49:32,090 --> 00:49:32,330
Private.

996
00:49:32,475 --> 00:49:32,765
Yeah.

997
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,140
One is enough for me.

998
00:49:34,170 --> 00:49:35,910
Andy Polaine: It's probably,
uh, it's probably wise.

999
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:36,480
Chui Chui Tan: Yeah.

1000
00:49:37,050 --> 00:49:39,930
Andy Polaine: Thank you so much for
being, uh, my guest on Power of 10.

1001
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:41,400
Chui Chui Tan: No, thank
you so much for having me.

1002
00:49:41,610 --> 00:49:43,500
Andy Polaine: You've been watching
and listening to Power of 10.

1003
00:49:43,530 --> 00:49:46,560
You can find more about the show on
pauline.com where you can also check

1004
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,680
out my leadership coaching practice
online courses, as well as sign up

1005
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,485
for my irregular newsletter doctor's
note, and I'll put all the links.

1006
00:49:53,230 --> 00:49:54,040
In the notes too.

1007
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:57,610
If you have any thoughts, then please
put them in the comments or get in touch.

1008
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,299
You'll find me as at
AP Lane on PKM Social.

1009
00:50:01,299 --> 00:50:03,549
You'll find me on LinkedIn or my website.

1010
00:50:03,940 --> 00:50:06,134
Thanks for listening and watching,
and I'll see you next time.