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I was nine months pregnant with our second child,
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conceived in a moment of trying to fix our crumbling marriage.
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For the two weeks leading up to labor, I was being stonewalled.
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My transgression?
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Daring to insist that my husband put his coffee in a travel mug on the morning of
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my grandmother's funeral so that we could ensure we arrived on time.
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He wanted to tempt fate with traffic and enjoy a leisurely coffee while reading the news.
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Suffice to say, things were tense.
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This was a VBAC labor,
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and my doctor was adamant that I get the epidural on the minute chance my cesarean
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scar from four years prior might rupture during birth.
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I wanted as natural a birth as possible.
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I knew it was my last pregnancy,
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and I wanted my body to do what millions of women's bodies before mine have done.
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Plus, I hate needles.
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Needles in my spine?
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No thanks.
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But I acquiesced and found myself hunched forward on that sterile bed while a man
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with a needle poked my spine.
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Here's where things started to go really bad.
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I was in back labor.
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For the uninitiated, that means my baby's head was grinding on my spine on her way down.
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It was intense, blinding pain.
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The worst position to be in in back labor is, well, on your back.
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The best place to be in is on your hands and knees, doggy style, to relieve some pressure.
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But that epidural, it didn't take properly.
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I was numb from about mid thigh down.
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So I could feel all the pain in my abdomen and pelvis area,
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but couldn't rotate onto my knees for relief because I couldn't feel my legs.
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The pain became unbearable.
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I literally felt like I was being torn in two with a dull blade.
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Adjusting the epidural wasn't possible.
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So what did the doctors do?
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They gave me fentanyl.
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I went from blinding pain to an absolute disconnect from my body.
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Like I was a floating head.
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At this time, baby's heartbeat was slowing and I was encouraged to push.
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Any idea how hard it is to push a baby through a body you can't feel?
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I was terrified,
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and I pushed so hard that I broke a bunch of blood vessels in my face and received
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a third-degree tear.
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But phew,
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baby was born safe and healthy,
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and now it was time for me to get a well-deserved rest,
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or so one would think.
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But this was not the end of my ordeal.
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My ex insisted on sleeping in the hospital room chair with baby on his chest
(00:02:18):
instead of the bassinet.
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I had read a tragic story just days earlier where a newborn baby suffocated in the
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crook of her dad's arm after he had fallen asleep.
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I begged him to put her in the bassinet so we could all get some rest, but guess what?
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He refused.
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I wasn't able to get out of bed and put her there myself.
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And I couldn't rest with the terrifying idea that my brand new baby girl could meet
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the same demise.
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That was a trauma all its own.
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Who argues with a new mom that had literally just gone through war with her body?
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Who denies a woman assurance that her newborn is safe so she can rest?
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He did eventually put her down,
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but it wasn't without a fight,
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and that's something I'll never forget for the rest of my life.
(00:03:01):
Hi, I'm Zanva Lines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.
(00:03:06):
Today,
(00:03:06):
we are going to be talking about birth as a site of abuse,
(00:03:10):
but also a potential source of radicalization and collective healing.
(00:03:14):
I'm here today with my guest, Sabia Wade.
(00:03:17):
Hi, Sabia.
(00:03:19):
Hey, I am so excited.
(00:03:22):
That was a very interesting story.
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I had so many thoughts and feelings.
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Share them.
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Just just go for it.
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So many things.
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It just brought up for me,
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like,
(00:03:36):
when I teach,
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you know,
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my doulas,
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I'm always talking about,
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like,
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how much,
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one,
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how important it is to know the different things that can happen,
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right?
(00:03:47):
And, like, there's no way to know everything.
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But as far as,
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like,
(00:03:50):
the,
(00:03:50):
I guess,
(00:03:51):
what we call complications,
(00:03:52):
like,
(00:03:53):
letting them know what that is.
(00:03:54):
But more so, especially as a doula, like, holding the emotional space, right?
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um and that in the time of pregnancy and labor relationships right can really move
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through a lot of ups and downs even if the pregnancy was something that was desired
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right like that is a time where you learn where your partner has some things to
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work on where you have some things to work on how do you deal with conflict right
(00:04:22):
and like how do you deal with
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with trauma that is occurring like at the time.
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And also how does each person deal with it after the fact, right?
(00:04:31):
How people grieve is so much different than the next person.
(00:04:36):
What we may be thinking is like someone being selfish,
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someone being whatever,
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might really be sometimes like a trauma response and or lack of maturity,
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right?
(00:04:46):
We have to like kind of get into which one it is.
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But it's just so many elements to that experience that really speaks to the
(00:04:55):
holistic experience of pregnancy and labor for everybody.
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Totally.
(00:05:01):
It's so...
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And, you know, the thing I often hear from women is my partner did a beat and switch.
(00:05:09):
He was fine until we had kids and then he changed.
(00:05:12):
And I think what's actually happening is not that he just decided,
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oh,
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there's a child here now,
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I'll change.
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It's that children put demands on a relationship that were not there before.
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And a lot of men don't want to rise to that.
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For sure.
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I think people it's really wild because we often so as a doula and just as a
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reproductive justice like advocate,
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we talk about childbirth education and childbirth education gets into,
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you know,
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what to expect and what.
(00:05:42):
How to bring some comfort and all these things.
(00:05:45):
But I think it's super important in that time to talk about exactly what you're saying.
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Right.
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And to really talk about, like, what is what does it mean to parent?
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What is the role that you think you play in this process?
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What is that with couples?
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I see that as being like the really big, distinct role.
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mismatch is like,
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you know,
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the partner who's pregnant is thinking the other partner is going to be 50%,
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75% in doing whatever,
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but they feel pretty detached.
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They're like, well, baby's not feeding for me.
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Baby doesn't want me.
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I'm just going to sit over here in the corner, right?
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So how do we get them to be integrated?
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And also how do we have those prior conversations before birth,
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if we can,
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before pregnancy about what it looks like to be a parent for real?
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Yeah.
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And if we match on that level and if we should actually have children together,
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sometimes it's not quite a good idea,
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even though our relationship was a good idea when it was just us.
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Yeah, a lot of relationships just can't or shouldn't contain children.
(00:06:50):
Okay,
(00:06:51):
so I'm going to do your bio and then we'll get into some more questions because I
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don't want to miss that part of telling people who you are.
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Sabia Wade is a Black,
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queer,
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multidisciplinary reproductive justice advocate,
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entrepreneur,
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and thought leader.
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As the creator and CEO of Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings and founder of For the
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Village,
(00:07:11):
Sabia has built accessible pathways for community care workers and birth justice
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advocates across the country.
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With Roots as a volunteer doula at the Prison Birth Project,
(00:07:21):
Sabia's work now spans curriculum design,
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organizational strategy,
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full spectrum doula care,
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and executive coaching.
(00:07:28):
They are also the author of Birthing Liberation,
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How Reproductive Justice Can Set Us Free,
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a groundbreaking exploration of bias,
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healing,
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and collective freedom in reproductive care.
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Beyond advocacy and education,
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Sabia leads Tend and Mend Healing Studio in Wilmington,
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North Carolina,
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offering herbalism,
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spiritual care,
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mediumship,
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death doula support,
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and human design sessions,
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bringing a holistic,
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liberatory approach to healing and leadership.
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That's a lot of stuff.
(00:07:57):
When people read it, I'm like, that's me?
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Yeah, that's you.
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And so I learned about you through your book, Birthing Liberation.
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And a lot of what you're doing, of course, comes through in the book.
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But then I started researching more of your work in bio for this interview.
(00:08:17):
And I was just really struck by how very much you're doing out there in the world.
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Yeah.
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So maybe we could start by talking about how you came to be who you are and how you
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see yourself.
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Sure.
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Hmm.
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How I see myself is...
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I think I see myself as someone who wants to enjoy my experience on Earth.
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Like, when I...
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Wake up.
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I want to,
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I mean,
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I'm not always excited every single day,
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but I want to feel like I understand why I'm here.
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And I understand that what I do is important as well as it makes me feel good.
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And me feeling good also helps me to expand my work into the community,
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to help folks as much as I can,
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to educate.
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All those things are really important to me.
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So how I see myself is just like an adventurer,
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a lifelong learner,
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and someone who is just a bleeding heart,
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sometimes to a fault.
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But then when it comes to how I've gotten here,
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where I would say the center of my work,
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my center of my life has always been care.
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To be honest,
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when I started,
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the first time I realized how much I cared about community and people was working
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in a restaurant.
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I was working...
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And Fridays.
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And I remember I started off as a buster.
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I moved up to doing like to-go orders.
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I moved up to being a server.
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And I was like, I love working with people.
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I want to be like a restaurant manager.
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Then I went into long, long, long, long.
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I went to being a certified nursing assistant.
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And that's just,
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like,
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you got...
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Well,
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I guess not everyone cares about people in that way,
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but I feel like when you do that work,
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it's so intimate.
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Like, you're caring for people at their most vulnerable times.
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But I was, like, fascinated.
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I mean, some of it is, like, you know, it's dirty work.
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But it never felt like...
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I don't know.
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It never felt like I was in my wrong space or it was too gross.
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It was like I wanted to care for people.
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So I thought maybe being a doctor or something like that.
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But then I don't really like going to school.
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Like I'm good with school, but I find it to be...
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boring um and like in our like western kind of way that we see education like I
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want to be like out in the field doing something not just learning for years and
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years and years if that makes sense um anyway I found doula work and then I moved
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to from Philadelphia to Massachusetts and I became a prison birth project doula as
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a volunteer um
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So I started working with incarcerated people,
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formerly incarcerated people who use drugs,
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people in recovery.
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And that's when I really fell in love with reproductive justice.
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I, one, never thought about people being pregnant while they're incarcerated.
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I just didn't think about that.
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And then also being able to hear and be in relationship with those people,
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I was able to hear their stories,
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hear about their childhoods,
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hear about different things systemically that impacted them,
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different things that also made me realize that
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We're all,
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even though we all kind of try to separate ourselves from like the incarcerated
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population or this population,
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it's like,
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you never know what could happen and what made me put you in a position to have to
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be active in that way.
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So I just fell in love with the work and I've just never left the work since then.
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So I've had iterations of my first organization for the village in San Diego.
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We serve about 100 to 150 people a year with dual services.
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Then I created BADT.
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We train thousands of people all over the world in birth, work, and care work.
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And the healing modalities that I've practiced,
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I actually started practicing those even before I became a doula.
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So I've always been into healing arts.
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So I don't know, the simple way to put it is I want to be myself in all aspects of my life.
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And so it's taking some time to create that, but I feel like it's there now.
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And it may seem like a lot of labels and a lot of things, but it's more so because
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I don't see myself as only one avenue or one thing, right?
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I let myself be whole and I show that through my work.
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I love that about you.
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And I think that's also very inspirational to listeners because I know that I have
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a lot of listeners who are
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kind of trying to figure out what they're doing in their lives,
(00:13:24):
often pursuing second and third acts after escaping abusive relationships or like
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coming out of incarceration.
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And I think a lot of them feel pressure to like pick this one job and that's the
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thing you do and that's the thing that you are.
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And so I think just hearing from someone who's doing a little bit of all the things
(00:13:43):
they like is just so helpful and inspirational.
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And I just love that.
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So people know I love a re like a rebrand.
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When people come into their second,
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third lives,
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I tend to like I coach people and I love that person.
(00:14:03):
Right.
(00:14:03):
Because the thing about that person when they're in their second rebrand,
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third rebrand,
(00:14:07):
whatever,
(00:14:08):
they know what they don't like.
(00:14:11):
And that to me is so helpful.
(00:14:14):
I think it's like in the beginning of your journey,
(00:14:16):
like,
(00:14:16):
you know,
(00:14:16):
when I was in like my twenties and trying to figure out what,
(00:14:19):
I didn't have enough experience to name what I don't like,
(00:14:22):
who I am,
(00:14:23):
you know,
(00:14:24):
where I strive at,
(00:14:25):
where I don't strive at.
(00:14:26):
That second or third act, you're like, I know that this is not for me.
(00:14:31):
And like, we could build from there.
(00:14:35):
I'm like, if you know what's not for you, we can start moving you into what is for you.
(00:14:39):
And I think that's a blessing.
(00:14:42):
I think that's great.
(00:14:43):
I want to talk to you a little bit about prison birth.
(00:14:47):
I know the latest statistic is between 5% and 10% of incarcerated women enter the
(00:14:53):
system pregnant.
(00:14:54):
And unfortunately, some more end up pregnant often due to assault or coercion or rape.
(00:15:01):
Once they're there.
(00:15:02):
And this is something that I find, you know, most people don't really think about.
(00:15:08):
And so if you wouldn't mind just talking a little bit about this phenomenon,
(00:15:13):
because again,
(00:15:13):
you're right,
(00:15:14):
like people separate themselves from incarcerated people.
(00:15:17):
And the truth is,
(00:15:18):
it could be a lot of us and we need to really care about and be concerned about
(00:15:23):
this.
(00:15:25):
Yes.
(00:15:26):
So one of the things that I think was most impactful was,
(00:15:35):
for me was realizing how many people were in there for survival crimes.
(00:15:46):
I think a lot of times,
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I remember we went to our,
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we did a training with the Prison Birth Projects and the founder is Marianne
(00:15:53):
Bullock and that's still one of my mentors and friends and people I go to 10 years
(00:15:57):
later.
(00:15:58):
And
(00:16:00):
I remember we did our training in-house, right?
(00:16:02):
So we talked about reproductive justice.
(00:16:03):
We talked about this.
(00:16:04):
We talked about that.
(00:16:05):
And I was like, okay, cool.
(00:16:06):
And then I remember we had to do a training in prison.
(00:16:11):
And so in the prison, it was a totally different time, right?
(00:16:14):
It was like, don't touch them.
(00:16:16):
Don't trust them.
(00:16:17):
Don't do this.
(00:16:18):
Don't do that.
(00:16:19):
Manipulation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
(00:16:21):
And I'm like,
(00:16:22):
whoa okay and I was like can we find somewhere in the middle you know like there
(00:16:26):
was no middle so I remember talking to people that I met and realizing that yeah
(00:16:33):
I'm not saying that everyone's perfect there was you know people do things that
(00:16:36):
they probably shouldn't be doing however a lot of it was I was doing xyz crime to
(00:16:43):
put food in my kid's mouth right a lot of it was I was on xyz because I was being
(00:16:50):
trafficked
(00:16:52):
A lot of it was I had no escape and I had to do certain things to survive.
(00:16:58):
And so I think that part gets missed.
(00:17:02):
And another one, too, this was back in 2015.
(00:17:05):
So we were talking about the opioid crisis, but not nearly as much as we do now.
(00:17:09):
And the thing that really surprised me was a lot of people who were there for
(00:17:15):
drug-related charges,
(00:17:16):
when I would ask them kind of like their origin story,
(00:17:19):
a lot of them had like...
(00:17:22):
very legitimate injuries, right?
(00:17:25):
And they would go to the doctor and get prescribed this medication.
(00:17:28):
Now we have documentaries that talk about that time.
(00:17:32):
Now we have documentaries that talk about how many people were over-prescribing
(00:17:35):
medication,
(00:17:36):
how many people were making money off of it,
(00:17:37):
and how this epidemic became what it is.
(00:17:40):
But at that time, it wasn't that figured out yet.
(00:17:43):
So it was just a lot of,
(00:17:45):
like,
(00:17:46):
where people should have probably been in a rehab facility,
(00:17:50):
they were not there,
(00:17:52):
right?
(00:17:52):
Where people should have been in maybe other spaces,
(00:17:54):
they were not there,
(00:17:55):
they were incarcerated.
(00:17:56):
And so there are obviously some people that had did crimes that,
(00:18:02):
You know, you got to go to jail.
(00:18:04):
But but a lot of people were there from from my in my opinion in that time.
(00:18:13):
They were there when they should have been in other spaces.
(00:18:15):
And they were there when they should have been getting earlier intervention.
(00:18:19):
They were there when they should have been supported by their community,
(00:18:23):
by these systems way more.
(00:18:26):
As well as they were also navigating having other children.
(00:18:29):
And so their other children...
(00:18:33):
would be under the care of their family members or maybe foster care.
(00:18:36):
And so many of them were talking to the social worker,
(00:18:40):
trying to see their children,
(00:18:41):
trying to still maintain a relationship with their children.
(00:18:43):
And it was nearly impossible because a lot of these social workers are also way overloaded.
(00:18:49):
So it was just a really,
(00:18:52):
I think it really opens your mind to like everyone that we label as bad is not bad.
(00:18:59):
Sometimes the people we label as bad just don't have access.
(00:19:02):
And I think if we thought about that a little bit more,
(00:19:04):
it would change the way that we view incarceration in general.
(00:19:10):
Yeah, I mean, the thing that strikes me is that
(00:19:14):
In supremacy culture, prison is where we put people who we don't want to deal with.
(00:19:18):
And some of them we don't want to deal with because they've done crimes and we
(00:19:22):
don't want to ask why.
(00:19:23):
But a lot of it, it's because we don't have the resources to help with problems.
(00:19:27):
And so it's just you go here.
(00:19:29):
And it's far more punitive than just being locked away.
(00:19:34):
You know, people who are incarcerated are, as you said, just totally and completely dehumanized.
(00:19:41):
For sure.
(00:19:41):
And I think,
(00:19:42):
too,
(00:19:43):
that people miss the fact that I remember being there and talking to some of the
(00:19:49):
folks there and they were trying to get into rehab.
(00:19:52):
But a lot of people don't know that our rehab,
(00:19:56):
I guess,
(00:19:56):
system,
(00:19:57):
as you would say,
(00:19:58):
is overwhelmed.
(00:19:59):
Right.
(00:20:00):
It's overwhelmed.
(00:20:01):
So the way that a lot of people have to actually try to get into rehab,
(00:20:05):
especially when you don't have resources,
(00:20:07):
right,
(00:20:07):
to go to like a fancy buy the beach,
(00:20:10):
pay out the pocket situation,
(00:20:11):
is that you have to just keep calling.
(00:20:15):
But you have to keep calling.
(00:20:16):
And I mean, like, keep calling every 15 minutes.
(00:20:19):
Keep calling and hope that when they answer the phone that one time,
(00:20:22):
that they'll say they have an open bed and you can say you can take it.
(00:20:25):
So,
(00:20:25):
like,
(00:20:26):
thinking about that and having to,
(00:20:28):
literally,
(00:20:29):
people would be on their phone,
(00:20:30):
like,
(00:20:31):
their phone call that they have,
(00:20:32):
their time that they have,
(00:20:32):
their 15 minutes,
(00:20:34):
calling different rehabs,
(00:20:35):
trying to get into a rehab facility.
(00:20:38):
Right?
(00:20:38):
And then, like, if they couldn't get into one, they would just be sitting in prison.
(00:20:42):
Right?
(00:20:42):
So it's like people don't know that like these things that were like,
(00:20:45):
oh,
(00:20:45):
this person just go to rehab.
(00:20:47):
This person just go do this.
(00:20:48):
And it's like, they actually want to.
(00:20:52):
They want to, but one is not available.
(00:20:55):
It's really hard to get into.
(00:20:56):
And then also like if you read different,
(00:20:59):
look at different documentaries and read different things,
(00:21:02):
Some of these rehabs are actually like filled with drugs.
(00:21:05):
So you got to make sure that you're in the right rehab that is actually doing the right thing.
(00:21:09):
And sometimes you don't know until you get there.
(00:21:11):
So it's just so many layers.
(00:21:13):
Like even when someone is trying to get help, they may not receive it.
(00:21:19):
Yeah.
(00:21:19):
God, it's just, it's so sad.
(00:21:21):
All right.
(00:21:22):
So I want to talk a little bit about Birthing Liberation because I loved it.
(00:21:28):
I force, often under threat, everyone I know to read it.
(00:21:32):
I have chased my oldest child around the house quoting from it.
(00:21:37):
and I think it's such a wonderful book.
(00:21:40):
So I would love it if you would tell listeners a little bit about the book,
(00:21:43):
the themes you touch on,
(00:21:45):
how you came to write it,
(00:21:46):
and what this book is about.
(00:21:48):
Yes.
(00:21:50):
So I came to write it,
(00:21:52):
I feel like I've labeled myself recently,
(00:21:55):
maybe like,
(00:21:55):
I don't know if it's a chaos writer or a crisis writer or something around that,
(00:22:01):
because I wrote that book like peak,
(00:22:05):
like I started writing it anyway, like peak COVID, like peak, like don't go outside.
(00:22:09):
We're all, we still don't know what's going on.
(00:22:12):
And now I'm in the process of like,
(00:22:14):
starting to write my second book.
(00:22:16):
And I'm like, maybe because the world is burning again, I feel the need to write.
(00:22:21):
But when I wrote that book, we were definitely peak COVID.
(00:22:26):
It was a lot of Black Lives Matter, a lot of racial things going on.
(00:22:30):
And one of the things that really came to mind for me was like,
(00:22:35):
okay,
(00:22:35):
when we're thinking about racism and everything about the medical industrial
(00:22:39):
complex,
(00:22:40):
I didn't want to write for just,
(00:22:45):
The moment,
(00:22:46):
even though I was inspired by the moment,
(00:22:48):
because that moment in 2020,
(00:22:51):
2021 was also like a symbol of what we have been dealing with for years,
(00:22:55):
right?
(00:22:56):
Generations.
(00:22:57):
So I wanted to write a book.
(00:23:00):
that could be timeless, if that makes sense.
(00:23:04):
And so I wrote about,
(00:23:06):
the book starts off with a story about a person moving through the birth
(00:23:11):
experience,
(00:23:11):
a Black person moving through the birth experience.
(00:23:13):
And it's a very common story.
(00:23:14):
That story was like a reiteration of stories I've heard time and time again.
(00:23:19):
but the thing that i thought was really important was that when we're talking about
(00:23:22):
the story naming about the different perspectives that are happening right of
(00:23:27):
course it's the person who's giving birth it's um the father of the baby it's the
(00:23:32):
grandmother that's there it's the nurse and her experience it's the doctor and
(00:23:36):
their experience and everyone is moving through something everyone has layers and
(00:23:42):
so
(00:23:44):
What I really wanted to pull out was,
(00:23:46):
yes,
(00:23:46):
this conversation about racism,
(00:23:48):
trauma-informed care.
(00:23:49):
I have somatic practices in there and also a vision of what collective liberation
(00:23:56):
can do,
(00:23:56):
how it can be modeled and the care that we receive.
(00:23:59):
But I also just wanted to bring like humanity to all of the people who are
(00:24:03):
navigating this process.
(00:24:06):
And I think when we talk about racism,
(00:24:08):
especially,
(00:24:09):
right,
(00:24:09):
it's like hot topic,
(00:24:11):
people are getting their feelings.
(00:24:13):
I'm like, everyone is impacted by racism, everyone.
(00:24:18):
Yes,
(00:24:19):
black and brown,
(00:24:20):
indigenous,
(00:24:21):
people of color are impacted by racism,
(00:24:24):
but also so are white people,
(00:24:25):
right?
(00:24:27):
And that was a point that I wanted to get across that right now we live in a time
(00:24:31):
and still do live in a time where people are like,
(00:24:33):
oh,
(00:24:33):
we have to help the people of color with racism.
(00:24:35):
And I'm like, no, you are just a part of the mission because you are impacted as well.
(00:24:41):
Right.
(00:24:41):
When I say that white people are impacted, what I mean by that is.
(00:24:47):
There is white supremacy.
(00:24:50):
Right.
(00:24:51):
And white supremacy is not just supremacy over black and brown people.
(00:24:55):
It's also supremacy over other white people and how we think we have to show up or
(00:25:00):
how you think you have to show up because I'm not white.
(00:25:04):
But how you show up and like having to be the most powerful,
(00:25:06):
having to be the smartest,
(00:25:08):
having to be this,
(00:25:09):
having to show your worth and your value and what you have versus who you are.
(00:25:16):
Right.
(00:25:16):
And so for me, it was like, how can we start breaking that down?
(00:25:21):
And also talking about the fact that doctors and nurses are also navigating
(00:25:25):
difficulties no matter what color you are.
(00:25:27):
So my whole piece is always to bring humanity, to bring accountability as well, right?
(00:25:35):
Because we all have done something that impacts or harms somebody else.
(00:25:40):
And also to bring the opportunity to grow.
(00:25:43):
And I don't think we always get the opportunity to grow.
(00:25:46):
I think even when we talk about racism or any type of thing,
(00:25:50):
like homophobia,
(00:25:51):
transphobia,
(00:25:53):
we're just in this space where you have to know all the facts and you have to get
(00:25:58):
it right.
(00:25:58):
You have to say the right things.
(00:25:59):
You have to, if you don't say it exactly right, everyone's going to call you out.
(00:26:02):
You're going to be embarrassed and everybody hates you.
(00:26:05):
And I'm like, what if that person is in the process of learning?
(00:26:09):
How will they learn?
(00:26:10):
right if learning and making mistakes is all about shame then how will they
(00:26:15):
actually be able to practice right and i think like for me it's important to give
(00:26:20):
people space to practice to learn to to to be in community right that's what being
(00:26:27):
in community is about so i just try to foster that space in the book and i also try
(00:26:32):
to foster that space just in life
(00:26:35):
I love that you're talking about fostering space to learn,
(00:26:37):
because this is something I have been writing about and thinking about and
(00:26:43):
struggling with a lot for a long time,
(00:26:45):
how we bring more people into the fold,
(00:26:49):
how we avoid shaming people who have good intentions and are trying,
(00:26:55):
but how we also hold people accountable.
(00:26:57):
And it's such like a challenging balancing act.
(00:27:01):
And I can feel in myself getting activated and
(00:27:05):
constantly going too far in one direction or the other.
(00:27:07):
I think that's something pretty much all activists struggle with.
(00:27:12):
So I wonder if you could speak a little more about how we bring people in,
(00:27:17):
how we invite people to participate,
(00:27:20):
how we allow people to experiment and get things wrong while also protecting people
(00:27:26):
from harm.
(00:27:28):
Yes, yes, yes.
(00:27:29):
So
(00:27:32):
The first thing that comes to mind is that I don't think that we can protect people from harm.
(00:27:35):
I think that we can do some harm reduction.
(00:27:44):
I think that we can try to facilitate maybe some agreements,
(00:27:51):
like group agreements and things like that,
(00:27:53):
that can be helpful to creating the least amount of harm that we can.
(00:27:58):
But I think to not create harm is something that's unrealistic.
(00:28:05):
And I think that's also what holds us up.
(00:28:08):
Now, I think there's a difference between harm and someone calling me a racial slur.
(00:28:12):
Right?
(00:28:14):
Right.
(00:28:14):
That's different.
(00:28:15):
Right.
(00:28:15):
That's OK.
(00:28:18):
But I think it's different.
(00:28:20):
It's a different type of harm that can happen if,
(00:28:22):
let's say,
(00:28:24):
someone has a belief around me as a black woman that they bring to the space.
(00:28:30):
Like they may say something like, oh, I didn't know that your hair could do this.
(00:28:34):
Right.
(00:28:34):
Like they might really genuinely not have known that.
(00:28:38):
Right.
(00:28:39):
They may not have known how that was maybe stereotypical or harmful or whatever,
(00:28:44):
but that is a difference.
(00:28:45):
So I think there's a we have to one differentiate that.
(00:28:48):
Like what is like really explicit and like, you know, aiming to be harmful.
(00:28:53):
What is maybe implicit?
(00:28:55):
Yes, hurtful, harmful, but not meaning to be.
(00:28:58):
And where's a learning opportunity?
(00:29:00):
And so in that,
(00:29:02):
though,
(00:29:03):
I think one of the things that we need to do communally and what I think we do well
(00:29:08):
in BADT is creating a space for that.
(00:29:11):
So when we have group conversations and we're in space together,
(00:29:15):
we name,
(00:29:17):
hey,
(00:29:17):
here's our group agreements.
(00:29:19):
And I also know that some of you are at different levels of learning.
(00:29:23):
Right?
(00:29:24):
And so because you're at different levels of learning,
(00:29:27):
maybe when it comes to pronouns,
(00:29:28):
you may not get it right.
(00:29:30):
Right?
(00:29:30):
But if you say someone's pronouns and it's incorrect,
(00:29:33):
I need you to follow up with an apology and correct it and move it along.
(00:29:38):
Right?
(00:29:38):
So we set up those kind of like systems.
(00:29:41):
And you can't set up a system for everything.
(00:29:43):
And then we also have spaces where we say...
(00:29:46):
Hey,
(00:29:46):
if something happens,
(00:29:47):
some level of harm happens,
(00:29:49):
then like,
(00:29:50):
you know,
(00:29:50):
let us know so that we can talk about it as a community.
(00:29:53):
I don't think that we live in a world currently that allows for that.
(00:30:00):
One, we don't have intentional spaces.
(00:30:02):
We just put each other all in a room and just hope for the best.
(00:30:06):
Like, too, we don't want to name that, like, harm is unavoidable.
(00:30:12):
Now, the levels and the amounts and the types of harm can be different.
(00:30:16):
But it's just unavoidable.
(00:30:18):
No one's going to be perfect.
(00:30:19):
Even me, right?
(00:30:21):
I'm a teacher.
(00:30:22):
I talk about all types of things.
(00:30:24):
There has definitely been times where I have said something just not...
(00:30:30):
thinking like just using like a terminology so I remember one time I was in front
(00:30:33):
of I was actually teaching my racism and privilege course okay I'm teaching it I'm
(00:30:38):
in person I'm doing the thing and I said powwow as like just hearing it as like a
(00:30:43):
phrase of like me talking to someone right like you have to think about and I was
(00:30:47):
like
(00:30:48):
Because it's part of, it's language, right?
(00:30:50):
Language is so nuanced, right?
(00:30:52):
So me hearing that term, I said it just not even thinking, right?
(00:30:59):
And someone was like, hey, that's offensive to me because as an indigenous person, right?
(00:31:04):
Like a powwow is a celebration.
(00:31:06):
And I was like, you're absolutely right.
(00:31:08):
And I apologize.
(00:31:11):
right?
(00:31:11):
Like, I apologize.
(00:31:13):
My brain went to it.
(00:31:14):
I'm hearing it as a phrase and like,
(00:31:16):
I know better,
(00:31:17):
but even still,
(00:31:18):
I still put that out there,
(00:31:20):
right?
(00:31:21):
I apologize.
(00:31:21):
And I thank them for calling me out in that time and for us being able to hold that
(00:31:26):
complexity and to move forward.
(00:31:29):
Does that make sense?
(00:31:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
(00:31:31):
And it's also such good modeling of how to respond to someone giving you feedback about
(00:31:37):
their experience with you and how you've affected them so i think we have to like
(00:31:42):
do more of that like one intention like naming what can be awkward naming where the
(00:31:48):
lack of um education may be and then also naming how we want to recover and also
(00:31:55):
too the other thing that i think is i don't know i don't say it's controversial but
(00:32:00):
I have tried to do the work within myself to say,
(00:32:04):
if someone harms me,
(00:32:05):
what is the work that I have to do for myself?
(00:32:08):
Right now,
(00:32:09):
someone may apologize to me and they may do that work,
(00:32:12):
but there's,
(00:32:12):
I'm a black woman in America.
(00:32:13):
There's a whole bunch of people who don't apologize to me.
(00:32:15):
You understand?
(00:32:16):
So since they don't apologize, where, where is my work to take care of myself?
(00:32:25):
Right?
(00:32:25):
Because even if someone gives me apologies, sometimes it's still not good enough to be honest.
(00:32:31):
sometimes there's like work that i have to do there's some there's a responsibility
(00:32:35):
within myself to say it is not my fault right that this thing happened i cannot
(00:32:42):
control this other person but i gotta live with me so how do i take care of me
(00:32:47):
because at the end of the day that's who i gotta sit with so i think also there is
(00:32:53):
a piece right that
(00:32:55):
around how do I recover?
(00:32:58):
What do I navigate?
(00:32:59):
Like, how do I navigate?
(00:33:01):
Where are my boundaries?
(00:33:03):
And also naming when I don't want to be in a space where people are learning, right?
(00:33:08):
Some days people want to be in BNC spaces where people are learning.
(00:33:10):
And sometimes they're like, I'm too active, I have too much going on.
(00:33:14):
And this is not a space for me today.
(00:33:16):
It's not a safe space for me today based on my capacity.
(00:33:19):
And that's okay.
(00:33:22):
So what you're saying is that if you're having a bad day,
(00:33:25):
you shouldn't just start yelling at people online.
(00:33:27):
That would be a bad choice.
(00:33:30):
Yeah.
(00:33:31):
You know,
(00:33:31):
I think we're so like,
(00:33:32):
especially because of the internet and all that,
(00:33:33):
we're so like,
(00:33:35):
we put ourselves in spaces sometimes not,
(00:33:39):
you know,
(00:33:39):
it's like,
(00:33:39):
you know,
(00:33:40):
you have a bad day.
(00:33:40):
Like I know there's some days I have a bad day.
(00:33:42):
There's days where I'm looking at the news and it is just chaotic.
(00:33:47):
Everyone is like in my head, right?
(00:33:48):
Everyone hates black people.
(00:33:50):
Like,
(00:33:51):
You know, like I'm like activated, right?
(00:33:54):
And I'm activated for the right reasons.
(00:33:55):
I'm seeing a lot of like BS happen.
(00:33:58):
And when I'm activated on those days, I'm not going to be on the internet in certain spaces.
(00:34:04):
I'm not going to read more about that and look at the comments.
(00:34:08):
I'm not going to spaces that are learning spaces with people I know that have a
(00:34:15):
deep curve in their learning.
(00:34:16):
Like I'm not going to do that.
(00:34:19):
Because I know that it's not going to be good for me.
(00:34:22):
And I know that I don't have to be the superhero Black woman to come in.
(00:34:26):
And I also don't have to be the person who's arguing and proof.
(00:34:31):
I just don't have to do that.
(00:34:32):
And that's what I mean about the self-responsibility.
(00:34:36):
I'm not in a good place today.
(00:34:37):
I'm not going to put that type of information in my face today because it's going
(00:34:43):
to make it even worse for me.
(00:34:44):
And then I may be reactive.
(00:34:47):
And now I'm finding myself have to apologize for something, right?
(00:34:50):
So it's also like that self-monitoring and knowing yourself, that's also really important.
(00:34:57):
Yeah,
(00:34:57):
well,
(00:34:58):
and it's hard because I think that getting angry and consuming things that make you
(00:35:03):
angry and fighting with people who make you angry can often feel like activism
(00:35:08):
because we get really impulsive and it's like someone's wrong on the internet and I
(00:35:12):
have to go correct them and I have to performatively do this.
(00:35:16):
And you get that little like dopamine hit and you think you've done something without you.
(00:35:22):
But you've just made yourself and probably other people too feel like garbage.
(00:35:27):
And the other thing too that I like try to say to people who are well-meaning, right?
(00:35:33):
Just across the board.
(00:35:34):
The internet in some ways is just not real.
(00:35:40):
Like,
(00:35:41):
I have seen so many people who are just they're building these followings off of
(00:35:49):
being on the Internet,
(00:35:50):
saying a thing,
(00:35:52):
saying,
(00:35:52):
you know,
(00:35:53):
posting stories about whatever.
(00:35:55):
But when you ask them, what are you doing off the Internet?
(00:35:57):
Right.
(00:35:58):
Right.
(00:35:59):
Where's your impact?
(00:36:01):
Where are you, you know, holding space in your community?
(00:36:04):
Where are you creating resources?
(00:36:07):
Where are you distributing resources?
(00:36:09):
Where are you in relationship with people in your community?
(00:36:11):
Don't nobody know them.
(00:36:14):
There is no actual outside the internet stuff.
(00:36:18):
And the internet can be used to educate and to spread information and things like that.
(00:36:24):
But also people need to step outside their door and know who their community is.
(00:36:29):
They need to check in with their friends.
(00:36:31):
They need to check in with their family.
(00:36:33):
Those are the things that matter.
(00:36:36):
And I think the internet can really pull us into,
(00:36:39):
if I perform on the internet,
(00:36:41):
then I'm doing my work.
(00:36:42):
Yeah.
(00:36:43):
But you have to ask, what is this all this posting or commenting?
(00:36:46):
What is my actual impact and what is my intended impact?
(00:36:50):
And usually they don't match up.
(00:36:52):
That's that's such a simple and helpful question.
(00:36:55):
I love that.
(00:36:56):
And I hope people will take note of that.
(00:36:59):
So I want to talk a little bit about birth because,
(00:37:02):
you know,
(00:37:02):
that's that's one of your many areas of expertise.
(00:37:05):
I want to give people some statistics because I know not everyone is aware of the
(00:37:10):
way things are.
(00:37:11):
So giving birth today is more dangerous than it was a generation ago.
(00:37:16):
Things are getting worse and black women are hit especially hard.
(00:37:21):
Black women have at least four times the maternal mortality rate of white women.
(00:37:25):
And it's actually probably worse than that.
(00:37:29):
The research shows us that no amount of money,
(00:37:32):
class privilege,
(00:37:33):
advocacy,
(00:37:34):
education,
(00:37:34):
nothing protects black women from the risks of our maternity care system.
(00:37:40):
I live in Georgia where the maternal mortality rate is even worse than the average in the U.S.
(00:37:45):
Our maternal mortality rate is higher than that of 100 other countries,
(00:37:51):
including impoverished and war ravaged regions.
(00:37:54):
It's difficult to overstate how bad things are.
(00:37:58):
But it's not just maternal mortality.
(00:37:59):
And if we only look at death, we kind of miss the bigger picture.
(00:38:03):
It's also near misses.
(00:38:04):
I think the latest statistic is what it's like 50,000 women.
(00:38:09):
almost die giving birth because of delayed and denied care.
(00:38:14):
And then it's the mundane.
(00:38:16):
It's traumatizing births that leave families and sometimes entire communities
(00:38:21):
injured and suffering.
(00:38:22):
It's really scary.
(00:38:25):
And it's really sad.
(00:38:27):
And I think a lot of people hear about the horrors unfolding in the birth system.
(00:38:32):
And they think that this is a new problem,
(00:38:34):
that the system has somehow fallen apart,
(00:38:36):
that it's like Donald Trump's fault or
(00:38:38):
capitalism's fault or whatever and it's true that a profit motive continues to
(00:38:43):
erode our health care system but a lot of it is the system working as intended and
(00:38:49):
especially the racism has been baked in for kind of the history of obstetrics and
(00:38:56):
you give a great overview of that so i'm wondering if you can give a bit of an
(00:39:01):
education about that
(00:39:03):
Yeah, for sure.
(00:39:04):
I think, yeah, there's so much.
(00:39:07):
Let me get my thoughts together.
(00:39:08):
So yeah, so what you're saying is true and that this is not new.
(00:39:17):
When we talk about the history of the work that we do, especially birth work,
(00:39:27):
And I mean that from like doctors, midwives, everyone has some lineage.
(00:39:31):
I think the first thing we have to talk about is midwifery.
(00:39:36):
Yes, so I'm a doula, right?
(00:39:38):
So I'm the emotional support, educational support.
(00:39:43):
I'm that person.
(00:39:44):
And then we have a step up, a very huge step up too, is a midwife.
(00:39:48):
So...
(00:39:50):
Midwives are probably known at this point,
(00:39:52):
I think,
(00:39:53):
depending on what state you're in,
(00:39:55):
for being in a hospital system,
(00:39:56):
but also being at home.
(00:39:58):
So doing at-home births, water births, birth center births.
(00:40:03):
But the thing about them that people don't realize is that the history of grand
(00:40:08):
midwives,
(00:40:08):
what we call them,
(00:40:10):
is actually...
(00:40:12):
One,
(00:40:12):
it goes back to Africa,
(00:40:14):
right?
(00:40:14):
For Black people specifically.
(00:40:15):
And then when...
(00:40:18):
enslaved people were brought over here, they brought over their midwifery practices.
(00:40:22):
Those midwifery practices advanced into taking care of their enslaver's kids,
(00:40:29):
birthing their enslaver's children,
(00:40:30):
right?
(00:40:31):
And also taking care of the people, right?
(00:40:33):
So if you had to, if you were a slave at the time and you had to wet nurse a family, right?
(00:40:40):
Like someone else's children, there were midwives and also other women
(00:40:46):
And you're on your plantation who tried to feed your child while you couldn't feed them.
(00:40:52):
So we get from that to like the 1950s or so,
(00:40:56):
where hospitals started to say,
(00:41:00):
oh,
(00:41:00):
well,
(00:41:01):
let's bring birth really into the hospital system.
(00:41:05):
In that process, that meant that they made grand midwives who were traditionally trained
(00:41:12):
they made them start you know working within the hospital system they also started
(00:41:17):
to like demonize them by saying that their outcomes were bad which weren't true and
(00:41:22):
then they also provided a lot of things such as like um testing right so like the
(00:41:27):
kind of testing we see now standardized testing the thing about that was a lot of
(00:41:32):
the grand midwives did not have um they weren't sometimes they could be illiterate
(00:41:36):
And sometimes they could just not have the comprehension level to take tests.
(00:41:40):
So then that and also they made grand midwifery or midwifery at home illegal pretty
(00:41:45):
much across the board.
(00:41:46):
And so what we have now in our current world is.
(00:41:51):
midwives and probably I think three or three or so percent or less are Black.
(00:41:57):
We talk about Indigenous, I think that's one percent of the midwives in the U.S.
(00:42:04):
And so I'm just trying to make that connection between like history,
(00:42:06):
right,
(00:42:07):
and where we are now.
(00:42:09):
And then when we talk about physicians specifically,
(00:42:13):
we have to really talk about Dr.
(00:42:16):
Sims,
(00:42:17):
right?
(00:42:17):
J.
(00:42:17):
Marion Sims,
(00:42:18):
the father of gynecology,
(00:42:20):
who tested,
(00:42:21):
not tested,
(00:42:22):
well,
(00:42:22):
yeah,
(00:42:22):
tested surgeries such as C-sections and so on on enslaved women,
(00:42:29):
such as Antarctica,
(00:42:31):
with no medication,
(00:42:33):
no pain relief,
(00:42:34):
no nothing,
(00:42:35):
right?
(00:42:36):
And even at that time, there were people who were against that.
(00:42:40):
Even if that was the time of slavery, some people were still like, hey, that's not right.
(00:42:44):
And so now we have this education that we have in these and literally these
(00:42:48):
procedures that we have because they were practiced on enslaved people.
(00:42:52):
And so when we look at that and we look at gynecology as a practice and the medical
(00:42:58):
system as a practice,
(00:43:00):
how can a system that was born in that type of cruelty,
(00:43:06):
really,
(00:43:07):
like cruelty,
(00:43:08):
unfairness,
(00:43:09):
manipulation,
(00:43:10):
so on and so forth,
(00:43:12):
be a space that is safe for everybody?
(00:43:15):
Yeah.
(00:43:16):
It's not.
(00:43:18):
So we still see that as a reflection now when we're looking at our birth outcomes now.
(00:43:22):
And when there's,
(00:43:23):
the research has showed that even when,
(00:43:25):
you know,
(00:43:26):
people who are pregnant,
(00:43:27):
black people who are pregnant receive earlier medical care when they're pregnant,
(00:43:33):
when they receive,
(00:43:34):
when they're at a different education level,
(00:43:37):
when they have all these like positive things going,
(00:43:39):
good health,
(00:43:39):
whatever,
(00:43:40):
they're still seeing the same outcome.
(00:43:42):
That's why we see the Serena Williams having complications,
(00:43:46):
why we see the Beyonce's and this and that and everyone who's like,
(00:43:49):
oh my gosh,
(00:43:50):
you're so rich.
(00:43:53):
How could they have a problem?
(00:43:54):
How could they have these kind of outcomes?
(00:43:56):
It is racism and discrimination that is really the underlying theme of our current
(00:44:01):
medical system.
(00:44:02):
And until we build something different, we won't see anything different.
(00:44:10):
And there are different people who are building different systems,
(00:44:14):
but the problem with that is money and resources have to be given to those systems
(00:44:20):
that are working,
(00:44:22):
but they have to be scaled to actually be able to access everyone.
(00:44:26):
But the last thing I'll say is,
(00:44:29):
when we're talking about scaling these efforts that are already happening in
(00:44:32):
different communities by different midwives,
(00:44:35):
doulas,
(00:44:36):
even physicians,
(00:44:37):
right,
(00:44:37):
who are doing a different model of care,
(00:44:41):
Our medical system right now is also based in capitalism.
(00:44:45):
So it's kind of like,
(00:44:46):
well,
(00:44:46):
if the money can't move or make 10 times what it's been given,
(00:44:50):
if it can't grow as fast as we wanted to grow,
(00:44:53):
then it's not worth it.
(00:44:55):
And one of the things that we have to really,
(00:44:57):
really advocate for as people is that care is more important than profit.
(00:45:03):
And right now we're in a system that is profit over care.
(00:45:06):
Yes, yes.
(00:45:08):
So I know you know this, but listeners may not.
(00:45:11):
So right now in Georgia, we're having a big fight over Black midwifery.
(00:45:17):
And what's going on is there's a group of Black midwives who call themselves community midwives.
(00:45:23):
So these are midwives who serve primarily in rural disenfranchised areas,
(00:45:27):
and they do home births.
(00:45:28):
Some of them also do hospital births, but it's mostly care at home.
(00:45:32):
And what's happening is in the areas where they serve, there are no care providers.
(00:45:38):
There's no hospital.
(00:45:39):
There's no obstetrician.
(00:45:41):
And these are the women who are saving lives.
(00:45:43):
They have great outcomes.
(00:45:45):
They have deep ties to their communities,
(00:45:47):
often their grandmothers,
(00:45:48):
their great grandmothers,
(00:45:49):
and their great great grandmothers were midwives.
(00:45:52):
So they have generations and generations of this history.
(00:45:56):
And what's happening to them is they serve their clients and then they get
(00:46:01):
prosecuted because they are not licensed medical professionals.
(00:46:06):
So they say, okay, we'll license us, but there's no money in licensing them.
(00:46:11):
So they don't get licensed.
(00:46:12):
So these women are presented with the conundrum of continue to serve your clients
(00:46:17):
and save lives.
(00:46:19):
And risk jail or don't do that and watch them die.
(00:46:23):
And this has been going on for years and years and years.
(00:46:26):
And it's the solution is to me so obvious,
(00:46:29):
but there's there's no money and there's no acclaim in it.
(00:46:32):
And so it just doesn't happen.
(00:46:33):
Sure.
(00:46:35):
And we also have like where we do have spaces where.
(00:46:38):
And I think another thing people kind of like get confused about is.
(00:46:44):
When we talk about a home birth midwife, they are doing one extensive care.
(00:46:50):
They're talking to a client for like an hour, right?
(00:46:53):
There's no, and I'm saying that as a minimum, right?
(00:46:57):
As a person who's a doula who works for home birth midwives, who I love, like,
(00:47:01):
there is no 15 minute appointment.
(00:47:03):
It's gonna be an hour plus, okay?
(00:47:08):
They're also doing like check-ins.
(00:47:10):
They're talking with them in between appointments.
(00:47:11):
They're giving like full holistic care.
(00:47:15):
Then what we're talking about actually being on call,
(00:47:17):
being at birth,
(00:47:18):
like where we have other practitioners who are working on shift work,
(00:47:21):
right?
(00:47:21):
So every 12 hours they're usually changing their shift.
(00:47:24):
If you're a doctor, 24 hours or so.
(00:47:26):
Our home birth midwife is there the whole process.
(00:47:29):
It could be two days.
(00:47:31):
It could be some time as a doula and as a midwife,
(00:47:36):
as well as giving that,
(00:47:37):
again,
(00:47:37):
once you have the baby,
(00:47:39):
having a visit the day after,
(00:47:42):
having a visit a couple times in that first week,
(00:47:44):
having a visit a couple times in that second week.
(00:47:47):
It is very extensive, holistic, integrated care.
(00:47:53):
And so when you're doing that,
(00:47:54):
you're also doing a bunch of blood work and this and that and tools and supplies
(00:47:59):
and
(00:47:59):
You have a student midwife, hopefully, and hopefully you can pay them.
(00:48:04):
But it's well worth thousands of dollars.
(00:48:07):
And I think the thing that's also holding people up is that they're seeing now that
(00:48:11):
Medicaid is covering doulas in some areas and also covering midwives in some areas.
(00:48:16):
But what they don't know is that when you look at the rate, it ain't nothing.
(00:48:22):
It's not nearly worth what that midwife is worth.
(00:48:25):
So we have people serving their communities either for nothing at all,
(00:48:30):
right,
(00:48:30):
with legal threats,
(00:48:32):
you know,
(00:48:32):
impending on top of it,
(00:48:34):
but also being like,
(00:48:36):
what is the other choice?
(00:48:37):
For me, I live in a rural area.
(00:48:38):
I live on the land of my great-great-grandparents who bought this land to get free
(00:48:45):
from,
(00:48:46):
you know,
(00:48:46):
enslavers.
(00:48:47):
And so
(00:48:49):
For me, I know about the community midwives here, right?
(00:48:52):
I know about the people who birthed my actual family, literally.
(00:48:55):
And them women did not get, there wasn't a system of like getting paid.
(00:49:01):
There was no, you know, you could pay all your bills.
(00:49:04):
It was community love and it was community resourcing that helped keep these women alive.
(00:49:10):
But now in this world of capitalism, we don't have that.
(00:49:14):
We don't have,
(00:49:15):
like,
(00:49:16):
the ability to resource midwives the way that they need to by the community alone
(00:49:21):
because everyone,
(00:49:22):
nearly everyone is struggling,
(00:49:24):
right?
(00:49:24):
Like,
(00:49:25):
we don't have the,
(00:49:26):
even when we're talking about doulas,
(00:49:28):
doulas were not as much of a thing years ago.
(00:49:30):
Why?
(00:49:31):
Because your mom and your aunts and everyone had the ability to come and be
(00:49:36):
surrounding you during your birth.
(00:49:37):
Now your grandmother, the grandma's still working, right?
(00:49:41):
like aunts are working right like there's so many people who are working now
(00:49:47):
because of capitalism where like our grandfathers will come and their one income
(00:49:51):
will hold the house down we got everybody not working here like it costs to have a
(00:49:57):
baby now it costs to go to the hospital and have a baby even if you have insurance
(00:50:02):
people are leaving with 10 000 20 000 30 000 plus bills to have a baby
(00:50:08):
It's just a huge disconnect over,
(00:50:12):
again,
(00:50:12):
care and what we need as people,
(00:50:15):
as communities,
(00:50:16):
no matter what your color is,
(00:50:17):
no matter what your sexual orientation is,
(00:50:20):
so on and so forth,
(00:50:21):
versus everything being about how much profit can be made off of someone's body.
(00:50:27):
Yeah, it's so it's so bad.
(00:50:29):
And so I'll tell you, I've got an international audience.
(00:50:32):
And so some of them are just totally unfamiliar with this idea of paying for health care.
(00:50:38):
It's so awful.
(00:50:40):
With my first child,
(00:50:43):
I had an unmedicated,
(00:50:45):
you know,
(00:50:46):
natural,
(00:50:46):
no epidural,
(00:50:47):
not even an IV,
(00:50:48):
not even an injection birth.
(00:50:51):
At a hospital.
(00:50:52):
Nothing went wrong.
(00:50:53):
I needed no medicine.
(00:50:55):
All I needed was someone to sit with me and I guess make sure I didn't escape or
(00:50:59):
throw the baby or something.
(00:51:02):
And, you know, we left after a day and then we got our hospital bill with insurance.
(00:51:08):
It was fourteen thousand dollars.
(00:51:12):
And,
(00:51:13):
you know,
(00:51:13):
and we go through it and there's like all kinds of charges for services we didn't
(00:51:17):
get.
(00:51:18):
But, you know, there's there's no one to call.
(00:51:21):
There's no way to fight this.
(00:51:22):
We're just all completely dominated by this system that doesn't care.
(00:51:28):
Yes,
(00:51:29):
and it's really important to say,
(00:51:31):
like,
(00:51:31):
I read a lot of books,
(00:51:32):
like being in the rural South,
(00:51:33):
like I'm around my elders who literally were born in 1930s,
(00:51:38):
1930s,
(00:51:41):
1940s.
(00:51:42):
And they were around when like,
(00:51:43):
they were like,
(00:51:44):
my aunts and uncles are like,
(00:51:45):
go to the hospital.
(00:51:47):
No, we weren't even allowed to go in the hospital.
(00:51:51):
That wasn't a thing.
(00:51:53):
It only became a thing when Black bodies could be commodified.
(00:51:57):
How much can we make?
(00:51:59):
What bill can we send after the fact?
(00:52:01):
That's when Black people were starting to be allowed into the system.
(00:52:04):
But one of the things I think is important to name is that for generations,
(00:52:09):
Black,
(00:52:10):
Indigenous,
(00:52:10):
Brown folks who live in the U.S.,
(00:52:13):
we took care of ourselves through community,
(00:52:16):
through millifery,
(00:52:17):
through medicine people,
(00:52:19):
through plants,
(00:52:21):
through all those practices.
(00:52:23):
And we kept ourselves, I would say, pretty well, right?
(00:52:26):
And one of these books that I read, it was really significant and important to name that
(00:52:32):
they said,
(00:52:33):
one of the medicine people said,
(00:52:38):
if we become like addicted or dependent,
(00:52:44):
I should say,
(00:52:44):
on Western medicine,
(00:52:46):
we will continue to lose our freedom and we'll never have it again.
(00:52:51):
Right?
(00:52:53):
And when I think about that,
(00:52:54):
I'm like,
(00:52:56):
oh,
(00:52:56):
right,
(00:52:57):
I can look at this space now to put it in and say like,
(00:53:02):
Oh, because we have, one, legal issues around such things as midwifery.
(00:53:07):
Two,
(00:53:08):
because it's inaccessibility,
(00:53:09):
even if people do have the legal right to be a home birth midwife or whatever,
(00:53:13):
it's expensive.
(00:53:15):
Even to have a doula could be expensive,
(00:53:17):
right,
(00:53:17):
if you don't have it supported by Medicaid or,
(00:53:20):
like,
(00:53:20):
a work benefit.
(00:53:22):
And I think about,
(00:53:22):
like,
(00:53:23):
how our dependence on this current system is also what keeps it going,
(00:53:27):
right?
(00:53:28):
Right.
(00:53:28):
Because most people are going to have their baby in a hospital.
(00:53:32):
Most people are going to, you know, if they have something wrong, go get a pill.
(00:53:36):
Right.
(00:53:36):
Like, there's nothing wrong with that.
(00:53:38):
I take pills.
(00:53:39):
I go to the hospital.
(00:53:39):
Like, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
(00:53:43):
But I'm saying like how we have moved away from more holistic approaches.
(00:53:48):
Well, like, for example, medications are I'm also a herbalist.
(00:53:51):
So a lot of medications are derivatives of a plant that probably grows in your
(00:53:56):
backyard sometimes.
(00:53:58):
So it's like we also have to like recognize how like our dependence on this system
(00:54:02):
and it being the only system is also what keeps it going,
(00:54:07):
right?
(00:54:07):
Because it shouldn't cost you $14,000, but also in 10 years, it's going to cost $44,000.
(00:54:12):
And it won't be much that we can say about it until we can create or support these
(00:54:17):
other avenues of hair.
(00:54:20):
Right.
(00:54:20):
Well,
(00:54:20):
and it is not a coincidence that these other avenues of care that BIPOC people have
(00:54:25):
used for generations to keep themselves alive are now being criminalized.
(00:54:29):
Like that's not an accident.
(00:54:32):
I mean,
(00:54:33):
I think,
(00:54:33):
you know,
(00:54:34):
with the whole,
(00:54:34):
like,
(00:54:35):
what is it that happened recently with Trump and whoever,
(00:54:39):
but they,
(00:54:39):
like,
(00:54:39):
said that nurses are not professional degrees anymore,
(00:54:43):
professional practices anymore.
(00:54:45):
And it's like, that's interesting, right?
(00:54:48):
Because one, nurses run the world, love physicians.
(00:54:52):
I know some really dope physicians.
(00:54:54):
And we also know that nurses keep it going, right?
(00:54:57):
Yeah.
(00:54:58):
But I think looking at the world,
(00:55:00):
we have to ask that question around like,
(00:55:02):
who has grown in the nursing space?
(00:55:04):
And it's people of color.
(00:55:06):
Right.
(00:55:06):
People of color have really grown into that space and are really like taking up space there.
(00:55:11):
And now it's like, oh, it's not a professional degree.
(00:55:13):
It's not a professional workspace.
(00:55:16):
And it's like, what does that even mean?
(00:55:19):
And it's so offensive,
(00:55:21):
especially after like in the last five,
(00:55:24):
six years,
(00:55:25):
like just talking about COVID in itself.
(00:55:27):
Right.
(00:55:28):
What?
(00:55:29):
These nurses and physicians were saving lives and or dealing with so much death
(00:55:35):
because of their commitment to this work.
(00:55:37):
And so it's just really wild to me.
(00:55:41):
And I will also say that for black and brown people,
(00:55:44):
indigenous folks,
(00:55:46):
I'm seeing this buildup of people getting back to learning how to farm the land,
(00:55:52):
learning how to work with plants.
(00:55:54):
learning home birth midwifery,
(00:55:56):
learning how to be a doula,
(00:55:58):
learning to like do these things that are in our tradition that has,
(00:56:03):
you know,
(00:56:03):
has,
(00:56:03):
you know,
(00:56:04):
moved away or escaped or been less accessible.
(00:56:06):
But I see us doing that work and really starting to build more autonomy.
(00:56:11):
It's going to take time, right?
(00:56:13):
Like all things, but I see it.
(00:56:14):
I'm doing that work.
(00:56:15):
I see other people doing that work.
(00:56:17):
And I think that's going to be essential to how we move forward.
(00:56:20):
Yeah.
(00:56:21):
All right.
(00:56:22):
See, you mentioned doctors.
(00:56:23):
So I want to talk about doctors a little bit.
(00:56:26):
One of the things that struck me about your birth or about your book,
(00:56:30):
your book on birth,
(00:56:31):
there we go,
(00:56:34):
is the theme of trauma integrated throughout the birthing system.
(00:56:39):
Every time I do an episode about anything birth related,
(00:56:42):
I get hate mail from obstetricians who feel targeted.
(00:56:46):
And
(00:56:47):
I tend to dismiss these messages as powerful people lashing out against
(00:56:51):
marginalized groups who are demanding better.
(00:56:53):
But I also know that everyone in a broken system suffers moral injury and that it's
(00:56:59):
often not easy to be a doctor in the system.
(00:57:02):
I hear constantly from doctor friends about how a broken system inhibits their
(00:57:07):
ability to provide truly comprehensive quality care.
(00:57:09):
It's literally not possible and it's not their fault.
(00:57:13):
I'm wondering if you have some thoughts on the defensiveness doctors sometimes feel
(00:57:18):
and how that relates to the overall trauma of the system.
(00:57:24):
Yeah,
(00:57:24):
I'm going to start with what I say to people all the time,
(00:57:29):
which is like,
(00:57:30):
baby,
(00:57:30):
we got to do our own work.
(00:57:32):
We got to do our own work.
(00:57:33):
We got to do our own work.
(00:57:35):
And why I say that is we live on a divisive time.
(00:57:41):
Everyone's wrong.
(00:57:42):
Everyone has an opinion.
(00:57:43):
Everything's black and white.
(00:57:44):
There's no nuance.
(00:57:47):
And sometimes what happens when we're in that type of space is that we literally
(00:57:51):
build a defensive nervous system.
(00:57:53):
Right.
(00:57:53):
Meaning that everything is a threat.
(00:57:56):
Anything that someone says to me is a threat.
(00:57:59):
You look at me away, it's a threat.
(00:58:02):
And so I think that when I say we have to do our own work,
(00:58:05):
I mean,
(00:58:05):
nervous system regulation work.
(00:58:07):
Right.
(00:58:07):
I need to sit down.
(00:58:08):
I need to meditate.
(00:58:09):
I need to whatever that looks like.
(00:58:11):
So that's number one.
(00:58:12):
Number two is that.
(00:58:15):
As professionals,
(00:58:17):
physicians especially,
(00:58:18):
obstetricians even more so,
(00:58:19):
you have to be able to hold nuance,
(00:58:23):
right?
(00:58:23):
You also have to be able to hold that someone's experience isn't always a reflection of
(00:58:31):
you personally, if that makes sense.
(00:58:33):
One of the things that is really interesting to me is that,
(00:58:37):
like,
(00:58:38):
for example,
(00:58:38):
me being a Black person,
(00:58:39):
if someone has a bad experience with a Black person,
(00:58:43):
sometimes they put all of us in one group and we just all become bad.
(00:58:46):
Like, we're like, I'm like, what?
(00:58:48):
That had nothing to do with me.
(00:58:49):
Why am I now, like, a harmful person?
(00:58:51):
What?
(00:58:53):
However,
(00:58:53):
it's so funny,
(00:58:54):
though,
(00:58:55):
when it gets flipped over to a more privileged identity and how reactive they are.
(00:59:00):
Right.
(00:59:01):
And I'm just like,
(00:59:03):
this person,
(00:59:03):
if someone is expressing I had a bad experience with my OBGYN,
(00:59:09):
where can you open up to one,
(00:59:13):
take out your feelings and think about this person's lived experience as a patient?
(00:59:17):
Right.
(00:59:19):
And also, what can you learn from that experience?
(00:59:21):
That doesn't mean that you yourself are racist or harmful or anything,
(00:59:26):
but you may hear in that story something that you do that is harmful and you didn't
(00:59:30):
know it.
(00:59:32):
Maybe they say, oh, the doctor asked me...
(00:59:36):
if I wanted if I the doctor didn't even ask me if I wanted to breastfeed they
(00:59:40):
assumed I was on formula feed and I think that's terrible okay is that a habit that
(00:59:44):
you have is it if it is maybe you need to listen to why that hurt that person and
(00:59:49):
think about how you can shift and learn in your practice I think people take things
(00:59:55):
personally sometimes because maybe it's something that they do but maybe their
(00:59:59):
intention is not to be harmful does that make sense
(01:00:04):
And I think that when people hear something that sounds connected to them,
(01:00:09):
they're like,
(01:00:09):
well,
(01:00:10):
I do that and I'm not a bad doctor or I do this and I'm not.
(01:00:13):
And I'm like, yes, because your intention is not to be harmful, but your impact was harmful.
(01:00:22):
And sometimes our intention does not match our impact.
(01:00:26):
And guess what?
(01:00:26):
When that happens, we have to now do some work.
(01:00:31):
We have to now do some work.
(01:00:33):
And that's okay.
(01:00:35):
I think that like
(01:00:37):
One thing we have to not be disillusioned by is power and privilege.
(01:00:42):
Because when we become disillusioned by it, then we become harmful.
(01:00:47):
Nothing I do can be wrong.
(01:00:49):
Anyone that has some feedback or commentary for me is being hurtful.
(01:00:53):
And it's not that.
(01:00:54):
And when I work with doctors,
(01:00:56):
I can recognize that doctors are not having a good time in this world either.
(01:00:59):
Yeah.
(01:01:03):
I even talk about that in my book, right?
(01:01:05):
I talk about the doctor who really,
(01:01:08):
like,
(01:01:08):
in the birth space seemed to be direct,
(01:01:11):
detached,
(01:01:12):
wanted to,
(01:01:13):
you know,
(01:01:13):
get right to whatever the procedure was.
(01:01:15):
But really, that was because he had some trauma in the process of becoming a doctor, right?
(01:01:20):
And so I want to name that, like, I can look at a doctor and see that there's humanity there.
(01:01:27):
And in your role as a doctor,
(01:01:32):
patients clients that's not their responsibility it's just not right their
(01:01:37):
responsibility is to be treated by you cared by you and they may have some feedback
(01:01:42):
i may have some feedback but you have to be able to do your own work of separating
(01:01:48):
where is the lesson where is what doesn't apply to me what does apply to me and
(01:01:54):
also
(01:01:55):
Every obstetrician is not the evil obstetrician that did this over here, right?
(01:02:01):
It's just, it's personal work that has to be done.
(01:02:06):
And I think that people get disillusioned by power and privilege in those positions
(01:02:10):
to think that no one should have feedback because I'm saving lives.
(01:02:13):
And I'm so happy that you are saving lives.
(01:02:16):
Thank you.
(01:02:17):
And you're not obsolete from learning.
(01:02:22):
and being better in your practice.
(01:02:25):
No one is.
(01:02:25):
I love that.
(01:02:28):
I think that's such great advice.
(01:02:29):
We just have to allow more space for complexity.
(01:02:32):
And I think one of the really hard things about being a human is that one of the
(01:02:37):
only ways to become a better human is to listen to the bad and unpleasant things
(01:02:42):
people have to say about us.
(01:02:45):
Yes,
(01:02:45):
and I also just realized that,
(01:02:46):
like,
(01:02:47):
in no position,
(01:02:49):
like,
(01:02:49):
I don't care if you're a doctor,
(01:02:51):
if you're the Pope,
(01:02:53):
if you're a doula,
(01:02:54):
whatever,
(01:02:56):
we as humans are inherently going to harm somebody.
(01:03:03):
That is just it.
(01:03:05):
Like if we,
(01:03:05):
if we,
(01:03:06):
I think even when we're talking about relationships,
(01:03:08):
whether they're like really deep relationships or just like,
(01:03:12):
you know,
(01:03:13):
maybe more detached relationships.
(01:03:15):
And because we are interpersonal beings, that means that we will harm somebody.
(01:03:20):
And sometimes it will be that someone interpreted for me,
(01:03:23):
I'm a very like flat faced monotone person.
(01:03:28):
So sometimes people can interpret my tone or my lack of affect as I have a bad
(01:03:34):
attitude or I'm not interested.
(01:03:36):
And really, it's not that.
(01:03:38):
I'm just like that.
(01:03:39):
Actually, the more monotone I am around you, the more comfortable I am.
(01:03:41):
Absolutely.
(01:03:43):
But we all have our interpretations, right?
(01:03:45):
Like we're all, we all have built up in our systems, interpretations.
(01:03:50):
We all have built up in our system, lived experiences, trauma, things like that.
(01:03:55):
And if we just have that ability to like for a second, step back and say,
(01:04:01):
Hmm.
(01:04:01):
I wonder what that person might be experiencing.
(01:04:04):
Right.
(01:04:04):
Like when we talk about the trauma iceberg,
(01:04:06):
I don't know if you ever seen that image of trauma iceberg.
(01:04:08):
Yes.
(01:04:09):
Yes.
(01:04:10):
Right.
(01:04:10):
So the trauma iceberg on the top is like this person is coming off like bad
(01:04:14):
attitude or angry or detached or all these negative things.
(01:04:20):
But in the bottom is like abuse and violence and violence.
(01:04:24):
They've experienced this and they've experienced that.
(01:04:26):
And it's like, we generally have the ability to do that for ourselves, right?
(01:04:30):
Look at our own trauma iceberg, but we don't have the ability to do that for other people.
(01:04:35):
And that's where the problem is.
(01:04:38):
And I'm like, that doesn't mean that you have to go and get repeatedly harmed by someone, right?
(01:04:42):
Put your boundaries up.
(01:04:44):
Let people know that's enough, right?
(01:04:46):
But also, like, we have to look at each other's layers and the ones that we don't see.
(01:04:51):
I understand that most stuff is not personal.
(01:04:54):
And if it is personal,
(01:04:56):
because some people are intentionally mean,
(01:04:58):
evil,
(01:04:59):
all those things,
(01:05:00):
then you remove yourself out of harm's way.
(01:05:02):
But I don't know.
(01:05:03):
In my life, I feel like most people are not.
(01:05:05):
People are really doing the best that they can.
(01:05:06):
And I'm trying to do the best that I can.
(01:05:09):
Yeah, I think that's wonderful.
(01:05:12):
And I think that's a great place to wrap this up.
(01:05:15):
Sabia,
(01:05:16):
thank you so much for your time and for the wide scope of work you're doing to
(01:05:20):
drive out injustice and build a better tomorrow.
(01:05:23):
We are really lucky to have you in the world.
(01:05:25):
And I really seriously mean that.
(01:05:27):
So thank you.
(01:05:28):
Thank you.
(01:05:30):
Thank you for inviting me.
(01:05:32):
Thank you for such an open dialogue and yeah, just giving space for nuance.
(01:05:39):
Not a lot of people want to hold nuance.
(01:05:42):
People want things to be black or white, right or wrong, good or bad.
(01:05:47):
It's easier that way.
(01:05:49):
Yeah, exactly, right?
(01:05:51):
And we can all do like our moral high standpoint to like,
(01:05:54):
oh,
(01:05:54):
if I do this and you do this,
(01:05:55):
I'm better.
(01:05:56):
But I think like having these conversations and making space for these conversations creates
(01:06:02):
Space for the gray areas and the nuance and the self-discovery and the observation
(01:06:07):
of other people and also kindness for ourselves and kindness for others and just
(01:06:13):
realizing that we're all,
(01:06:15):
whether we're white,
(01:06:15):
black,
(01:06:16):
or in between,
(01:06:16):
we're all being impacted by all these systems in one way or another and in a
(01:06:21):
harmful way.
(01:06:22):
Now, if we don't name harm, that's what we can name.
(01:06:26):
What?
(01:06:26):
systems are intentionally being harmful, intentionally making us divisive.
(01:06:30):
But we as humans have to find some kindness and love and hope and connection with each other.
(01:06:36):
Yes, absolutely.
(01:06:39):
Well, thank you again, listeners.
(01:06:40):
I'll put all of Sabia's information in the show notes.
(01:06:43):
I will also put the trauma iceberg there.
(01:06:46):
And thanks so much for listening.
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