Hello everyone, I'm here today with Lou Lackman, and we're going to talk about overcoming attachment trauma in relationships.

Lou is a non-binary therapist with 30 years' experience.

They view their personal recovery from attachment trauma as a credential more important than their professional training.

They've trained in core process psychotherapy, which is a Buddhist psychology-based modality, as well, as well as many others focused on embodiment and the energetic release of trauma in the body.

They call this work Embody Freedom.

Welcome, Lou.

Thank you.

It's really nice to see you, really lovely to be here.

Mm.

So let's jump straight in.

Can we talk about how our early life er affects our abilities to relate later on?

Yes.

Well, for me, I, since I was raised in a cult from the age of 11 months.

I didn't have that parental care from very young.

, my My caregivers rotated from that point, so I had different people taking care of me.

I wouldn't say I never saw my parents, but it wasn't very often.

, and so that, that created a break inside me in terms of attachment.

And so I found over time that I was quite Disconnected, but I didn't really understand why.

I was either disconnected or I was overwhelmed.

When we think of attachment as having to do with our attachment to others.

And it is about attachment to others, but it's also about attachment to self.

We attach to ourselves kind of through our relationships with others.

And it takes a long time, a lot of, a lot of healing, a lot of work to actually figure out how to attach to ourselves.

So just tell me a little bit more about what kinds of love and attachment were available to you.

And how that that's sort of affected life later on.

Well, there were.

There were various people, and some of them were consistent for periods of time.

, and, and my parents were very consistent when I did see them.

So I think That, yeah, in my head, there's kind of a contrast between having parents in your house all the time that are really inconsistent.

And really scary Whereas I didn't see my parents much.

Well, there was one evening and one.

Afternoon a week that we had that we were supposed to be with family.

, so I had some time with them.

And because they were very consistent, they, they did, they were kind of a rudder for me.

They did.

They did, .

Yeah, they were in in my mind.

, But there was a distance because I didn't see them very often.

And so it was, it was hard for me to.

Stay constant In kind of what they thought, what they expected, those kinds of things, because not having their care, I'd be like, well, you don't care.

I don't see you, right?

and do whatever I wanted.

, especially as a teenager, and they were on the other side of the planet when I was a teenager, so.

, yeah.

Come back to your question.

Right, yes, I'll rephrase it, maybe.

What I was thinking what kinds of love and attachment were available.

So you've got a sort of ruddering, but I'm not quite sure I'm hearing expressions of affection or creation of security or I, I don't think I had that.

I can laugh about it now, but I don't, I.

I think I, mm.

I think we kind of built it, you know, I think the kids kind of.

Attached to each other, but also harmed each other.

You know, and that was true with the adults too, that that some adults were great for us and some adults were abusive, you know, it's like.

A lot of, a lot of different, , a lot of kids had abuse within the organization.

That's just part of.

I think living in a big organization that's focused on something other than raising children.

You know, I think if there was a real focus on on the children.

As well as a focus on the humanitarian work they were doing, then it might have turned out quite, quite well for everyone.

But that wasn't, that wasn't how it was.

There was a mission, and then everything else was, including the children, was just a chore that needed to be done.

In order to fulfill the mission.

Right, so it was all outward focused and not about nurturing from within.

No.

Oh, so, so, so tough times as a teenager, I'm reading between the lines.

Tell me about how this has affected your relational life.

What, what do you see?

I see that I was very needy.

So you, you see it in any love story where, you know, the person kind of becomes the central focus, right?

And they are your world, you know, and it's so compelling and so important.

And I think because of the break in my attachment, it was even bigger.

It was like.

, I became kind of.

, In service to My partners, you know, or whatever partner I had at the time.

Because, because of that break in attachment, I needed the, I needed them to be there.

And so they couldn't, they couldn't be.

I could, yeah, it's hard to explain.

It didn't necessarily look really merged, but it was.

So I, I would.

So, so, so we need conflict, I believe in relationship.

We need, we need desire.

We need to say this is what's OK for me and that's not, you know, we need to have those difficult conversations.

And I would just say, OK, whatever you want.

Because, because I, I couldn't trust the conflict.

And and and maybe I'm saying it in an extreme way because I'm not saying that I never had any arguments at all.

But if, especially if my partner was distressed.

Everything, everything dropped.

Like nothing mattered except them being well.

That doesn't really work in a relationship.

You have to be able to say, well, I'm sorry you're upset, but this is still what I want.

Hm.

And we might have to part ways if that doesn't work for you or figure out a way that I get my needs met, you know, like that that wasn't something that I could do.

, so you would subsume yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know, it sort of sounds like, , it's sort of the mission, the mission is to do the good work for the other and yourself.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

But, but also, you know, I, I have granddaughters now, which is amazing.

It's a revelation and it's just wonderful.

But one thing that's, that's really inspiring to me is watching their will.

You know, and watching their parents respond to that.

You know, I didn't have any of that.

And it's so cool to watch because they're developing their ability.

To fight for themselves in relationship and say this is what I want.

Right, they're developing it.

I didn't I, you know, I didn't have any practice at that, so that kind of breaks down in a long-term relationship, it breaks, you know, if you, if you're not sure you have that muscle.

Either you have to have someone who's really astute and really clear and really really present so that you don't have that kind of conflict.

Right?

So that they can self regulate.

But if I'm the one who has to self regulate them, which actually has been true with all of my partners.

And I don't know, I, I, I don't know, I'm not necessarily blaming them when I say that because I don't know how much of it is me and how much of it is them.

Yeah, and that you took more responsibility for that side of things, so they never had to learn to manage their own feelings.

Right, right.

My, my children never had to cry, almost.

, you know, I had a, a, a psychotherapy teacher, my, my psychotherapy teacher commented on that, your kids never cry.

And, and I think that was about That kind of, I was in service to them.

Like I knew what they wanted before they said anything almost.

So they didn't have to get upset about it.

I mean, it sounds a little crazy to me to reflect on, but , that is how it was.

Yeah, so you were all things to them.

You could, I tried to be, yeah, gosh, must have been quite strained.

It didn't, it didn't feel like it, but I was very young, you know, first child was born when I was 20 so I was very young.

, yeah, yeah, so you have more that youthful spirit and energy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm also guessing that you didn't want them to have the experience that you had of there being nobody really there.

Right.

Mm Yeah.

Yeah, so So I was always there You're making sure.

So, you, you talked about different relationships.

What relationships did you have?

Well, I think, I think I was always in a relationship.

Almost always.

There was a break, couple years.

Before my last long term relationship.

, , I had, I, I had a couple of marriages to men, and then I had a marriage to a woman.

, which was much, much longer, like more than twice as long.

As the marriages to men, and I think .

I think in all of them.

I could, all of those relationships, I would say that.

It's, it's what I've just talked about, my ability to stand up for myself and say what's right for me.

That in terms of my responsibility broke them down.

Mm.

Oh, well, yeah, yeah.

Mhm.

Yeah.

But, but it's almost, I mean, because if you're, if you're in service, you're hiding.

Mhm.

Yeah, there's no real you there.

You're just an adapted function in a way.

Right.

I, I wanted to, I, I felt, I felt my protectiveness come in then, and I wanted to say, well, you can't say that there's no real you there.

And then I thought, yeah, you can.

Because, because that, that, that grist, that, that, , that truth, you know, like when I think about the whole embody freedom thing, it's all about truth.

Like you have to listen to what is, not what you want to be, not the flavor of you'd like it to be, but what is.

And that needs to be out, you know, you need to be.

Mhm.

You need to be out with that in a relationship and it's hard to do.

It's hard to do.

I mean, this is a story that kind of says, see, this is why.

You know, and, and for me it's enormous growth that I don't really want a relationship anymore.

Right, because I needed one so much, right?

And now, you know, I'll be 60 next year and.

Mm.

You know, I, I'm in a different place.

, And I, I don't know whether it'll change, you know, it's a journey, but.

But I don't really want it to change.

I really enjoy this time on my own.

It's great.

Well, it sounds like you can be you.

Yes, yes, yes, and, and because of that lifetime of experience.

And, and, you know, a lot of love and adoration toward my partners and stuff.

I don't necessarily trust.

Even though I feel, you know, kind of top of my game in a lot of ways.

And very present.

I don't know whether the, whether I just fall into the same.

Behavior.

I just don't know.

So, it doesn't make sense to me.

To, you know, cos I see people kind of searching for a partner, searching for a partner, and, and something I often say to clients and that I really see is that people are often bonded at such a young place.

Yes, go on, speak some more about that because you mean a young age emotionally rather than years, yeah.

Well, well, you know, because I do so much, , kind of listening, whether it's to others or inside myself, when.

There was a point where I'd already left my last relationship.

And a part of me wanted to go back.

And I was just like, what is going on here?

So I did some listening, and that was a 5 year old part.

Which was the first time I was abused.

So I was like, hey babe, I got you, you know, don't worry.

Really, I'm listening.

I'll make sure we have people that love us, it's OK.

You know, like.

And, and then she settled down and she was OK with leaving, but.

You know, like, I, I think that just drives us, like, you know, she's like, I need, I need that person to pay attention to me, for me to be the center of something, right?

For a kid that never was never the center of anything.

Anyone's, you know.

Nobody's priority.

No.

So I mean this really fits into it might seem sort of contradictory, but it really fits with, you know, the calling in the one principles where the first and foremost person you call in is yourself.

You learn your own feelings, needs and desires, and you look after, like just like you said there, I don't want to be choosing a partner from a five year old place.

Yeah, or or like me in hospital, you know, choosing the next nurse that comes along and I'll do anything to keep them there.

No, I don't want to be living like that.

It's such an infantile place, but we are infantile, all of us, so it makes sense that we do that.

But it's not.

I don't know.

I guess it's the growing up, you know, how do we, how do we expand into who we really are here to be or, you know, kind of follow.

The path that's right for us.

It's easy to put, you know, kind of go into a little path that just is convenient and seems to be there for you rather than the path that expands you.

Into Where you want to be or where you.

Have a, I mean, it depends on your beliefs, but have agreed to be before embodiment.

Right, yeah, yeah.

So, and it's, you know, quite often what I will say to people when they're wanting to choose to be with somebody, , be your own marriage arranger.

Don't let your hormones do the choosing, don't let your numerous little selves, you know, it might be a 14 year old, it might be a 14 month old, don't let them be choosing the person.

You really assess them and they're.

Capability of love and growth and support and respect.

, and, and their independence, you know, make sure that they're able to have a grown-up relationship with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, be your, yeah, look at all the pieces.

Does this really fit?

Is this really right for me?

Will it really, well, you know, do I, do I get bigger and stronger in this relationship, or do I get smaller?

Yeah, it's a good question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do I have to dim my light to stay here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really, really good.

It takes a long time to figure that out, I think.

Because I think there's an expansion that happens with the first blush of love anyway.

So there's and, and maybe there's also we could also argue that relationships.

Continue to expand and change and grow, you know, as humans do.

And then either we feel we can align with each other or we can't as we as we change and grow.

And that's, yeah, but like, polyamory isn't something that people.

Talk a lot about and it's very outside of .

Cultural acceptance very much outside.

But there's a, there's a book I read once called Polysecure.

It's really lovely, it's just really lovely to understand and think about with the respect that it takes to be in a relationship.

Yeah, yes, yeah.

I don't know that I could ever manage a poly anything because I would have, I obviously have trouble managing the one thing.

I, I agree with you.

I agree with you, but I do know people who do that.

Yeah.

, and you're right, it takes a lot of dedication, , healthy choosing.

And a lot of self respect and a lot of respect for the partners.

Yeah.

Yeah, and healthy boundaries and values and all of that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, I wanna go back a bit though, cos I want to talk about the different parts of ourselves.

OK, because you've mentioned to me in our own conversations that you've learned to love the different parts of yourself.

Could you speak a bit more about that?

Well, What what I've learned is that every, whenever I feel a feeling in my body, it's a particular part and I don't necessarily see the kid and how old they are and their clothes and all that stuff.

But I can I, I talk to them a lot of times using the a heart holding practice that I developed and I talk directly to that part of my body.

And I kind of say, you know, things like, hey, it's OK, I'm here.

It's not your fault, that kind of stuff, you know, kind of reassuring as you would to a child.

And then I say, what are you worried about?

What do you want?

Which is kind of what I did with that five year old.

Yeah.

, and then I do, you know, and I that's very much an energetic practice and that reassuring really helps.

So.

, but there's many, many different parts, so it'd be hard for me to list them all, but they, they turn up at different points.

But also in my, in my last few years.

Of my final, I, I like calling it that, my final relationship, intimate relationship.

I found myself, I found myself recognizing that someone else had stepped forward.

Like when there was, when there was anger and stuff, there was a part of me who would just say whatever they wanted to hear, right?

So the fawn part we could call, , you know, but, .

And I, I I always saw myself as very honest and very straightforward, but of course when you start saying what people want to hear, you're not being honest.

You're really not.

So it was a bit of a, oh, you know, I'd look back on a situation because that part would come in and take over.

And I didn't have any, I didn't, I, I, I didn't have any power over that.

It was done.

No, and that's, it is a strange thing when that happens, isn't it, because you become identified with that part and it becomes autonomous, and there's not even you looking on till afterwards.

, yeah, yeah, and that I, there's a .

I like to tell people you don't have control of your trauma response, you know, because I, I don't think we do, you know, when we're in fight, fight, freeze fawn, we don't have control.

Not at all, no, not at all, no, it, it's er been triggered and we're off.

hm.

The the thing to do I think is always to reflect more afterwards on why did I do that, you know, what exactly you're saying, what age am I?

Where are those feelings coming from?

What, what sense am I making of it, about it.

Nobody's ever here for me, I better pursue them, I think.

You know, I better subsume myself or I'll be on my own and that's a fate worse than death.

And all of those things are at play, I think.

Yeah, hm.

So where can people find you if they want to work with you, where can they find you?

I am at .

Energy counseling.co.uk.

I was in the I'm in the States now, but I was very much, , all my accreditation and everything is in the UK and I was there for a good 20 years, so.

Yeah, and I, I do a lot of circle work now.

So I do a lot of .

Work in healing circles for people.

Beautiful, beautiful.

Better say a bit about that.

Come on.

I just think we heal together.

I think we need each other.

I think, you know, I do, I'll do a lot of work in the center, and everybody will benefit from that, but they'll also be doing their own work using those same things that are happening in the center.

But sometimes everybody in the circle is working on something and I'm facilitating the whole circle.

I keep them small.

Yeah, really beautiful in a circle.

Yeah, hm, yeah, nice number.

Yeah, points to the compass.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

, thank you, Heather.

It's been so lovely.

Thank you.

We could talk for a long time.

We do.

Thanks, yeah.