Simon Dell (00:00)
Welcome to the CMO, CMO, Fractional CMO podcast. I really didn't think what through what I was about to say there. ⁓ But welcome to another episode. This is episode, I think I'm up to about 149 or 151 episodes that we've done so far. ⁓ It's all kind of falling a bit out of order. But if you've listened to any of these before, thank you. And thank you for coming back again.

Otherwise, if this is your first time, then welcome. My name is Simon Dell. I am the CEO of CEMO, that's spelled C-E-M-O-H.com, if nobody knew how that was spelled. We are Australia's largest fractional marketing network. ⁓ I was gonna say the world, and we probably are, but I don't need anyone to call me out on that one. So if you wanna find out a little bit more about us, CEMO.com, if you wanna connect with me,

You can find me at Simon at simo.com or you can find me on LinkedIn or Instagram or all those other various channels. Also on TikTok as well. I seem to have garnished somewhat of a following on TikTok. I don't quite know how that happened, but it has happened. So, and the last thing is if you enjoy listening to us today or watching us wherever you are, digesting your podcast material.

please rate and review us and tell us how absolutely fantastic we are. I have with me today a lady by the name of Renee Smith, who is down in somewhere regional Victoria, and she will tell us all about that. So first of all, welcome to the show Renee, thank you for coming on. Now, for everyone's context, Renee and I had a conversation on a previous...

Renee Smith (01:47)
Thanks, Simon. Great to be here.

Simon Dell (01:54)
video chat podcast type thing that we actually only used internally into the CMO community. And we had such an interesting conversation that we thought we would do it again, but we would do it in a more public forum this time. ⁓ thank you for last time. ⁓ I think first things first, let's tell everybody a little bit about you.

Renee Smith (02:20)
Okay.

Great, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to come back and share this as a second conversation. So I have worked in marketing. been in the industry for 30 years, which shows a level of age and experience, building and positioning and transforming brands. I've worked in 17 different countries. I've worked in the fashion, retail, lifestyle, outdoor, action sports, wellness, manufacturing sectors. I lived and worked in Europe for 10 of those.

sports and education. ⁓ I've led global brands and category expansions, I repositioned iconic Australian brands, was fortunate to be one of the five executives working on the Cotton On Body brand, we doubled the brand from 150 to 300.

in two years. I launched Swatch Retail ahead of the Olympic Games. I delivered global loyalty programs in the UK for Debenhams, Nectar and Perks for Cotton On. I'm currently a CMO of a manufacturing, a $500 manufacturing business in Australia and in the new year I'm transitioning to fractional CMO work on what I'm calling marketing growth architecture.

So I'll be working with founders, CEOs and heads of marketing to deliver on a 90 day growth program and we might have a chance to talk about that in a little bit more detail. But that's me.

Simon Dell (03:40)
Yes, yes, we will do, we will do. Cool,

and look, I think you've mentioned a couple of them there, but as I said, as you said, you have worked with some fantastic brands. Also spent some time in France. I didn't mean to mention that last time. How is your French these days?

Renee Smith (03:57)
It's not so good these days. Not so good.

Simon Dell (04:00)
It's probably not, you you probably

don't bump into that many French people down in regional Victoria, do you? Are they? Okay. And do they get, do you practice your French on them? And then they sort of, they do that grimace thing when you talk to a French person in French and then they, and you're butchering their poor language and sort of. well, look. ⁓

Renee Smith (04:04)
There actually are a few down in regional Victoria which is odd but yeah they are, I think they come for the surf.

I do try. I do try.

My children did that to me.

Simon Dell (04:27)
And I think you and ⁓ I had a good conversation last time. ⁓ I think there was a number of things. ⁓ I should say, there's a number of things that I disagreed with that I thought you said, or not necessarily disagreed with, just wanted to challenge. And it's funny that I look back on your experience and I go, I must be a complete idiot to be challenging you, given your experience versus my experience.

And so either I'm an idiot or some sort of glutton for punishment, but we'll talk about that later on. The first thing I wanted to kind of start off on is this fractional journey. ⁓

It's suddenly, I think personally, has suddenly sort of bloomed into life in the marketing space in the last two, three years. You could probably argue longer than that maybe since COVID. Why do you think it's changed so much in the past few years?

Renee Smith (05:22)
Mm.

think that the marketing landscape is shaping this. So I think we're looking at a landscape today which obviously is in this current economic environment, we're really challenged. I think 69 % of CMOs are now reporting significant pressures on their budgets. ⁓ The ground beneath the marketing framework's really changed. 83%, I read, of CMOs say that their role personally has changed more in the last three years than in last decade. ⁓

think it's changing as a result of the marketing landscape. It's been very fragmented and we're looking at businesses who want cost reductions, want CEOs who believe marketing's obviously got to drive sales, not just brand. know marketing colleagues that I talk to, many of us are looking at, what does the restructure look like in 2026? What are the new roles? What are the roles that we need? It's not just the traditional marketing roles that we're looking at anymore.

And I think it's as a result of the landscape. ⁓ Businesses wanting more, paying less, they're wanting strategic insights. And because of the increased role of AI and automation in this process, it's actually the marketing smarts we need less so the execution. So we're looking at systems which will deliver on volume and speed, but you need the marketing smart to drive that. Is mining... ⁓

Simon Dell (07:03)
Yeah, I mean,

Renee Smith (07:05)
Synopsis. ⁓

Simon Dell (07:05)
it's interesting. Sorry, it's interesting. said there that just to sort of paraphrase something you said that this perhaps there's less less. So you're saying there's less need potentially for strategic support versus more for actionable, you know, the other way around.

Renee Smith (07:24)
No, I'm saying the opposite. I'm actually saying there's

more need for strategic support now. Yeah. And I think CEOs are recognizing that and they're looking at marketing. Marketing leads to be the marketing smart and the execution piece. You know, there's a lot of manual tasks, but with automation and AI, we can remove that stalemate. You know, that stalemate, it becomes, we've got speed, we've got volume, we need the smarts. So how do we deliver on the smarts?

Simon Dell (07:29)
Okay.

Hmm.

Renee Smith (07:52)
And I think at the same time the customer is really expecting more, know, customer expectations are rising, they want more personalized experiences, they expect us to know them more intimately. They'll switch brands more quickly if they have a negative digital experience. we're at that forefront where inside organizations it can be really overwhelming and the marketing function has become fragmented across all of the aspects, digital, ⁓ customer experience, CRM.

They're at brand performance and I feel like that transition is now moving us to a new landscape where the CMO is super relevant because... ⁓

they can augment, they can orchestrate and conduct that space if you like. They become the conductor of bringing all these systems together. And once you have your brand sorted, then you've got your brand and your brand tone of voice, you know who you are and what you are, then you just need the system. So...

Simon Dell (08:54)
Do you

think there is, I don't disagree with you that there's been a, there is a change and there's, know, and I think everything you say is completely right there. I just, my question mark on that would be that the strategic input, think obviously the strategic input now is massively different than it was five years ago.

Renee Smith (09:04)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (09:25)
How much more can we do that's different? I'm not phrasing that question particularly well, but I kind of feel most brands, be they in a B2C, B2B space, most marketing tactics have been tried and tested. Are we getting anything new or is it we're just regurgitating old ideas and repackaging them? Okay.

Renee Smith (09:45)
Why is it different now?

No, I don't think it is. I feel like we're at

that stage where we've got the data. So I think traditionally in traditional marketing models, know, the data centers lived in IT and the technology solutions lived in IT and insights teams maybe lived in IT. obviously depends on the nature of the structure of the business and how traditional they might be. But I think that the changing role of the lead marketer in the organization now is to design

those architecture systems that support the strategy. So it's taking the insight, it's taking the marketing comms, it's taking then the systems and bringing it all together. So I'm, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, we're regrouping, we're restructuring what marketing looks like and bringing a more cohesive, a cohesive, if you like, consumer experience ⁓ to market.

Simon Dell (10:47)
Hmm.

Do you think there's, because traditionally in businesses, you know, it's all been very siloed. ⁓ Marketing, sales, HR. Do you think we're seeing a change that marketing is perhaps, ⁓ I was gonna use the word infecting, but I think that's, that's kind of what I mean, but not in a negative way.

Renee Smith (10:58)
Yep.

Simon Dell (11:15)
is becoming more relevant and more important to some of those other departments to the point where perhaps when you look at the C-suite of a company, the CMO or the fractional CMO should be having more input in the way that businesses are run versus the other members of the C-suite.

Renee Smith (11:20)
Yes.

100%,

100%, 100%. And I think that over the last, you know, probably five years, the seat at the table around the C-suite, there's been a marketing head, but in some businesses that I've seen, has, it sits under a GM, but I think the relevance of bringing marketing back to the C-suite table in a really profound way is that they are cross-functions now. They are, they do have the foresight across the technology and how the insights going to inform the marketing solution.

And it's not just allowing our digital partner or our head of IT to make those choices and decisions. It's about, you know, how does the Markcom or the MarkTech or the Mark, the stack, the tech stack deliver for a marketer? And I think that that conversation is so much more relevant than it ever was.

think that businesses are recognising that and changing, starting to look at that as a real, I think it's a problem but I think it can be easily solved. And then I think the rise of the fractional movement here is that businesses are realising that once you've got a really strong brand framework and you know who you are.

if we have capacity to talk about that, but the value of having a brand that is really strongly resonated in purpose, who knows who it is, has its values, then you can create easily the tone of voice and the brand conversation using tools that AI now gives us to create bulk content and deliver it at speed. I'm not saying that we don't have roles, we absolutely have roles, but I

feel that the role of the CMO, the fractional CMO is way more strategic and design orientated in a solution than we've ever looked at marketing to deliver.

Simon Dell (13:31)
We did a podcast last week with three other fractional CMOs and an accountant. We basically ganged up on him for about 45 minutes. But one of the final questions that I posed as the sort of closing comment to the podcast was if you turned around to a CEO and asked them which member of the C-suite, the CMO or the CFO,

Renee Smith (13:40)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (13:59)
was responsible for the company's growth, who do you think that should be? And I think unequivocally it should be CMO. But again, when you look at a lot of companies that that senior role, that senior growth role isn't... ⁓

you know, isn't around the table, isn't sitting in the right meetings, isn't party to the right decisions. And I think it's then interesting, I think, and just remind me, how did you describe yourself at the start of this podcast?

Renee Smith (14:26)
Yep.

correct you.

Did I say a market and growth architect? described it as.

Simon Dell (14:39)
Is it the growth something growth marketer? Marketing growth

architect. And I wonder whether we we all ought to go around and perhaps add the growth into our titles to perhaps reinforce to the rest of the business. The point the why the fuck we're here because I think the rest of the business doesn't you know, they joke the way the coloring in department and things like that.

Renee Smith (14:56)
over here.

Yeah.

That's right. That's right.

Simon Dell (15:09)
maybe there's a realignment for CMOS, realigning the CMO brand to potentially be more effective in these businesses.

Renee Smith (15:15)
Yeah.

I agree

with you, I 100 % agree with you. mean we're our world, we're our...

marketing ourselves is the hardest thing ever. And I do think that the role or the, I suppose the reputation of marketers around the table has been that colouring in department, they just spend money and have fun. And it depends what sort of a marketer you are, how performance and data driven you are. But I think that bringing that back to the C-suite and actually I think the smart businesses in the future will recognise that the marketing function has such a key role to play in the strategic

growth of an organization because it is across brand, performance, digital, user experience, automation, ⁓ it's got insights, it's systems and you know right now we're super busy just doing all of that stuff and when we you know I refer to it as the tugboat. ⁓

where we a tugboat I want to move brands from being a tugboat to be a lighthouse so a tugboat will pull and push it will wear itself out but if brands can be that lighthouse you know that power of strength they don't chase anyone they shine they radiate they're visible they're strong they attract ⁓ if as marketers we can be that for the organization and our brands can be that I think we're solving a lot of problems problems with inconsistency and problems with

systems. So I think there's a real shift in marketing from what I would describe as effort to architecture, activity to cohesion and ⁓ it's that streamlined nature of what we can bring to the table. ⁓

Simon Dell (16:55)
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you mentioned your, 90 day strategy. Talk to me a little bit about that. Give us an overview of that, of how, you work in, when you talk about that.

Renee Smith (17:06)
Yeah, thank you. Well, this 90 day strategy came about because I was looking at organisations wanting to grow and exactly what we spoke to just now, that landscape of...

How do we not increase resources or heads? How do we make more money? How do we do that on a budget? And what does it look like to grow? Is this effectively the conversation that you could have with a founder or even a head of marketing or a CEO? And I think that what we're looking at is using, as I say, the marketing smarts, but then looking at how AI and automation can work in a 90-day growth plan. 90 days being effectively, you can plan, you can limit the focus, you can plan.

you

can effectively build and implement and start to measure results. So that's the reason for the timeframe. But effectively what it does is look at the sales process and optimize and fill any gaps. It designs an architecture as a plan to do that using a fully integrated CRM. It has a complete technical backend that I bring to the table with this. you know, combined CRM

automation in email, sales pipelines, the whole kit and caboodle. And it develops what is a plan and a one-time build for an organization and then hands it back to them, teaches them how to use it and then can walk away or can recommit to it in another 90 days. So you're establishing a really defined focus. We call it the LEAP framework, which is around limiting the focus, establishing the plan.

building the assets and then managing the performance. ⁓

And that allows us to, like I say, be so single-minded. It allows us to really hyper-focus on performance and set really clear milestones. It allows us to build those and take the heavy lifting away from an organisation who doesn't have the time or doesn't want to invest the additional resources or doesn't have the tech solution. And then we hand it back to them, show them how to use it and set it up for them for success. ⁓ So that's really what the program's designed to do.

and it's an ongoing program, can be once the 90 days is established then the organisation can continue to use that and have access to the system behind it.

Simon Dell (19:28)
Okay. And I assume obviously it's being effective where you've been using it. I mean, you're not going to say it's not, but yes.

Renee Smith (19:35)
Well, yeah, like this is.

No, this

is a program that I haven't just invented. am adapting for the Australian market, but it's a program that's been used around the world, but particularly in the States, but by large businesses, by startups, through to enterprise solutions to deliver millions and hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue for businesses. This particular program ⁓ won the Deloitte Technology Fastest Growing Tech of the Year in North America. It won the World Future Award as the best sales and marketing platform.

It was awarded the EY Entrepreneur of the Year, so it's got all of the, it's absolutely got the success markers on it.

Simon Dell (20:17)
It's obviously the way, I mean, you must see this, that when you walk into a business, way that ⁓ businesses are using data or not, invariably not using data. ⁓ Do you think that's one of the key components of success in terms of, you know, transforming a business in terms of how they use that customer data? ⁓ You know, and, and, ⁓

Renee Smith (20:41)
100%.

Simon Dell (20:48)
What, I'm trying to formulate my question here. What is it that they, what is it, if they're looking for the basics, if a company is starting out doing this, what are you suggesting is simple, perhaps easy, low-hanging fruit when it comes to data that they could be analyzing or collecting? Where do they start?

Renee Smith (21:09)
Well, I think it depends on the customer journey. whatever that touch point is for the customer, understanding your customer, think is where it starts. who is your customer and what's their value? What's their average order value? What's their lifetime worth? So I think AOV, but you know, and with that comes, is there a CRM behind it? ⁓ Who are my customer segments? And then effectively, are the opportunities with each of those segments? And where are the biggest, you know, the lowest hanging fruit?

is where we would always start. We always look at what they've done successfully in the past. You know, what's been the most effective campaign and why. And whether we re-engineer something or we fill the gaps, you know, maybe it's just a lead gen that doesn't have any... It's like a leaking bucket. So once you fill the hole in that bucket, then suddenly you've got, you know, you've got an amazing performing campaign and you...

you can re-execute it. I think starting with what's your customer, what do you know about your customer's average value and how are you going to increase that essentially, like what's your lifetime worth of that customer. And without a CRM that's super difficult.

Simon Dell (22:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. And look, think, I mean, this is going to sound, you know, the most obvious marketing statement that's ever been made, but it's a lot easier to, ⁓ you know, sell something to somebody that's purchased from you before than it is to go and find it. That number, think some, know, it depends what you read and where you read it, but people sort of say, you know, you can spend 10 times more trying to get a new customer than it is, you know, getting it. Yeah.

Renee Smith (22:32)
100%.

Yeah, I think it's three to five. I don't know.

Yeah, but absolutely. 100%. And if you've got a database, I mean, that's gold. They're the customers who already have a predisposition to your brand. They've signed up for a reason. It's about how you communicate with them effectively. And I think that given the increasing demands of consumers now, you know, they want us to understand them. And I think in our last conversation we spoke and I'll bring it up again around personalization versus individualization. think we've been

Simon Dell (22:52)
Hmm.

Renee Smith (23:14)
through this era of personalisation and to me that was delivering the right message at the right time in the right channel. But we're moving to this new era where consumers are demanding more.

They expect us to know them more intimately. They expect us to know what their desires, motivations are, the stage of their life cycle, the stage in the decision making process. They expect us to be able to deliver quickly. know, speed is queen, if you like. If you can deliver within five minutes, you have a 900 % chance, higher chance of conversion. And so when we're looking at delivering back on them,

then we have that opportunity.

Simon Dell (23:58)
Yeah, look, I think this was one of those moments that you and I sort of disagreed last time was this idea that the customer, I often feel there's a lot of statistics that come out of marketing and I feel there's a lot of statistics that come out of ad agencies and research agencies and the numbers and everything are almost there in order to.

Renee Smith (24:04)
Different. Yeah.

Simon Dell (24:25)
sell those statistics to CMOs who can stand up in front of CEOs or boards or whatever and justify their actions because somebody said that 93 % of people wanted more personalization or individualization or whatever it is. I sometimes feel that we spend too much time or we're too reliant on those numbers and

Sometimes I feel, it's probably the wrong thing to say in a podcast like this, that the consumer doesn't generally know what they want. I think the consumer, I have a belief that consumer knows what they don't want, but they don't necessarily know what they want. Does that make sense?

Renee Smith (25:00)
Ha ha ha.

I do understand the sentiment of what you're saying, yeah. I do, but I do believe we, you think about yourself, you know when you're making a purchase decision, fundamentally what you want, what you're looking for and your expectations, I think. So maybe you could say they don't necessarily know what they want, but could you frame it that the expectation is you, the brand will know what they want.

Simon Dell (25:19)
Mm.

⁓

Yeah, I think probably that's where I would be more comfortable agreeing with you to say they have an expectation of a delivery of a service of a product and things like that. ⁓ But that expectation I think is quite fluid. And I think it's across.

Renee Smith (25:42)
Yes.

Correct. Correct.

Simon Dell (25:56)
product, I think it's fluid across services, I think it's fluid in time of the day. mean, you know, you sit there and go, well, when you go and get a coffee in the morning, you'd be happy to wait for five minutes to have the coffee made because that's your expectation, the place is busy, it's the time of the day. But if you walk into a pub at five o'clock and it's less busy, you expect to be served straight away. You know, these are both...

very, very similar transactions, but they're often guided by, you know, lots of different external things. And I sometimes wonder where the company spent too much time chasing this idea that the customer is all knowing and all good. ⁓

Whereas if they sat there and just went let's deliver a level of service and quality and product that we're confident in and the you know the build it and they will come

Renee Smith (27:01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

and I 100 % agree with that. It's not that you're, I don't think it's that you're looking over your shoulder at your competitor. I always felt that the best brands, and I as a marketer always felt like that in my career, is that I was never watching anyone to see what else they were doing. I was in my own lane just doing what was resonating with me, what was on point. And I think the best brands in the world do that. And they're, you know,

consciously not conscious about the direction they're going and their strength in that 100 %

Simon Dell (27:34)
⁓ I think there's too many brands,

and I can certainly think of one off the top of my head right now that spent perhaps so many years self-analyzing themselves. And the one that jumps straight to mind for me, it'd be sort of from your background, would be somebody like Meyer, that spent, I feel, has spent so much time trying to analyze everything that they're doing and the people that are coming in and all those kind of things, when perhaps they've forgotten what the purpose of their business.

was to start with. ⁓ And I often have this, I've had this discussion with somebody in a retail marketing background, ⁓ retail marketing or retail advisor. ⁓ I kind of went, know, department stores in the day were places of, sounds wanky, but discovery and delight. Absolutely. You go in there going, what am I gonna find today?

Renee Smith (28:27)
I know it wasn't that amazing and what have they become? How did they?

100%.

Simon Dell (28:34)
You know,

and I think they've, I think they've just become so over analytical about what they're doing and where things are placed and how much things are priced and this and this, this, this, they've lost the delight.

Renee Smith (28:46)
Yeah, like, I mean,

I agree with you. I do agree with you and I think...

in this environment where actually experiences matter and brands want connections, they want to resonate with the brand that they're shopping in, they want that delight in store and they want to be wowed. What an amazing environment, that's just ideal. If you're walking into a department store, it's just, yeah, it's the foundation for delight. ⁓ But I think that in that case of a department store is really starting to look at the square meterage, their return on investment per square meter.

Simon Dell (28:56)
Mmm.

Renee Smith (29:22)
and whatever was delivering in that volume as opposed to what was going to be entertaining and potentially that's where they lost their path.

Simon Dell (29:30)
And I also think they, lost their path because they became so reliant on the concession businesses wanting their piece of pound of flesh. And, ⁓ yeah, yeah. But I also think.

Renee Smith (29:40)
That's what I mean. I mean it became about square metre, return on square metre. And which concession

was going to deliver to that, regardless of what the product mix was, it was... Yeah.

Simon Dell (29:51)
I think the other thing is they also forgot that lots of people shop in different ways, especially that male female demographic, men shop in a different way to women shopping. That's a massive generalization, generalization's a generalization because they're generally true. Those are some examples that jump straight to mind. On the flip side, obviously you've

Renee Smith (29:58)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (30:21)
You know, you've been doing this for a long time. I don't mean to point out that in a negative way. Who do you think does this well? Who do you think is using the ideas that you've sort of spoken about today and is actually delivering well?

Renee Smith (30:25)
Be rude.

Dare I say it, I do think Cotton On do it really well. Yeah. ⁓

Simon Dell (30:44)
Okay. Okay,

so then so then my question is, why do they do it? Well,

Renee Smith (30:50)
I think they know their customer. Yeah, they know their customer and they engineer their experience to their customer.

Simon Dell (30:52)
Okay.

Okay,

is that why I probably feel uncomfortable going into a cotton on as a 51 year old man?

Renee Smith (31:03)
Maybe.

Yeah, and it's really, they've really sharpened the saw on it. yeah, I think they do it well. I think other brands like, I think Grilled does it well as well. You you're walking to, I was in Grilled only last week with my son and I was just looking at the environment and everything about it, you know, from the language on the menu, you know, the celebration of whether it's photos of cattle on the wall or...

chicken or their community program or whatever it is, every aspect of it is considered and it's cohesive and consistent and clear and I think the brands that do line up those C's do really well.

Simon Dell (31:34)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I think it's, it's, I think the problem, you know, one of the problems isn't, this is not the time and place for this, is this, you know, late stage capitalism where everyone's beholden to a, you know, a shareholder and delivering, delivering value for the shareholder. Whereas if you, if you look at somebody from grilled's perspective, it's delivering value and delight to, you know, my, look, my seven and nine year old just love going in grilled.

⁓ You know, sure they like going in McDonald's as well, but we've got now to the point when grilled probably if I gave them a choice grill would come out ⁓ You know

Renee Smith (32:19)
Yeah.

Why do

think that is? What do they like about it?

Simon Dell (32:30)
⁓

I think it's because I think quality of the food. ⁓ think it is a much more, our grid where we're at is pretty more of a social environment as well. When we go down there, it's busy and it's family sitting around tables. ⁓ It's quite noisy. ⁓ They like to do the little bottle tops in the local things. ⁓ We always go down there with a board game.

Renee Smith (32:35)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's cool.

Simon Dell (32:59)
So we'll always take a game because that's

then become part of the ritual is, what game are we taking with us? ⁓ And so it's grilled of sort of partly through us, but partly through grilled themselves have created this ritual. ⁓ And I see it with grilled because even flipping the spoon once they've served you your food and things like that.

Renee Smith (33:06)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (33:30)
It's that ritualization of the experience that I think has led to success. And I see that in other businesses where they've ritualized a certain part of it and created experience out of that.

Renee Smith (33:51)
But it starts with the brand. They know their customer, they know their brand. It starts with the customer, starts with the brand. And everything, it's like a ripple effect, everything grows from there. And so they know that when they talk, they talk in a certain way and...

Simon Dell (33:54)
Yeah.

Renee Smith (34:07)
think what we get when we walk into that environment is we feel a sense of, we know the brand, we feel comfortable there, we feel a sense of belonging and community. And aside from the food, ⁓ then that's what we're going there for. And the fact that the community program just reinforces that. And it's clever because it's multi-layered. I mean, you're talking to, it's touching on business and community and...

mums and dads and kids and then they have those activations which the kids love to collect.

Simon Dell (34:40)
Yeah, it's funny, I did a ⁓ mentoring session a week ago, two weeks ago with a young woman who had her first fast food store and she was very adamant that she was going to turn this fast food store into an experience, into an emotional, to have an emotional connection. now, unfortunately I had about an hour to talk to her about this, so I'm like, well,

Renee Smith (35:00)
Yep. Yep.

Simon Dell (35:09)
you know, she, I could see her passion. She was a long way off from where she needed it, needed it to be to create that emotional, you know, that emotional bond. But she actually asked me, she said, well, cause we talked about the stages of, you know, brand is the ABCDEF model that I often use, ⁓ you know, and with F being forgotten and A being adorer. And she said to me, what brands do you adore?

Renee Smith (35:35)
Okay.

Simon Dell (35:39)
⁓ And that was a good question to me ⁓ because I'm relatively cynical, but there are some brands that I really adore out there. And the one that I mentioned to the point of this conversation was Guzman and Gomez because that I think appealed to me as a target market, as a customer. My kids like going to Guzman and Gomez, but not as much as Grilled.

Renee Smith (35:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (36:07)
because it's a different brand proposition, it's a different experience. It feels different.

Renee Smith (36:10)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what we

see now is that customers, and I know the cynical side of you will say this is a bit of a, dare I say it, wank, but yeah, customers are looking now, they want to shop with brands whose values they can align to. So if a brand has a perspective and their values and they're clear around what they are,

and they're purpose-led, then it makes it so much easier for the customer to want to shop with them.

Simon Dell (36:44)
Yeah,

yeah. I think that was the point where I think I probably differed from you when you said customers want to shop with someone, with a brand whose values they share. I don't think, I think values is the wrong word. And we may have said this last time, I can't remember, but I have definitely had this conversation with other people.

Renee Smith (37:03)
Yeah.

Okay.

Simon Dell (37:15)
I don't think values is the right thing anymore. think it was when Simon Sinek was sitting there going, we all start with the Y and everyone was like, my God. I think the right word now is vibe. And I think I want to shop with a brand. And I know I might be splitting hairs with this. I wanna work with brands that share my vibe. The values to me is like,

Renee Smith (37:30)
Yep.

It's the same thing.

It's the same thing. We're just talking around how does it resonate? What makes you feel that you belong, that you can connect, that you understand this brand, they understand you.

Simon Dell (37:44)
Is it though? Is it?

Values to me is a descriptor that sort of says, you know, I believe in.

Values feel moral. Values feel like, I believe in human rights and all those kind of things. And I believe in protecting the environment. Values feel fluffy and, but vibe is more.

Renee Smith (38:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

feeling.

Simon Dell (38:27)
emotional I think and I think if I if if if if grilled grilled grilled I think if you look at grilled and go whatever its values versus and I think if you look on its menu right grilled has all these things about where the food's coming from and and it's all this and this and this and those to me are valued

Renee Smith (38:28)
Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

So

they don't scream these are my values, they don't have to. They say we support local, so that's we care about the beef, whatever it is they're saying, they're expressing their values in a way that is digestible by a consumer.

Simon Dell (39:06)
Yeah, but I don't think that's a vibe. And we could probably argue this until the cows come home to throw a beef joke in there as well. ⁓ I think vibe is much more impromptu.

Renee Smith (39:13)
Yeah, yeah, that was good.

Well you're talking about vibe as the personality of a brand. The essence of the brand, the personality of the brand. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Dell (39:27)
Yeah.

I think, yeah, I think, yes. Yeah. And I think personality and values are two different things. I have a set of values

and I have a personality and they're different things. And I think for many years brands have gone, well, everybody wants to know our values. And I'm like, no, I don't think they do. I think they want to know your personality.

Renee Smith (39:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I suppose what I'm trying to draw the line between is that yes, in the past we would have said that's just a value, but now it's about how the brand behaves. And that is ⁓ a direct reflection of their personality. And so how they behave is that vibe that you're talking to. that might just be a different way to look at it. But I think we're saying the same thing. Sometimes we've got different things.

Simon Dell (39:54)
Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and

I think it's a relatively, it's not necessarily a moot point, but I think, I think if, another good example would be, I think McDonald's who've lost their vibe completely. And that's when I look at, well, that, no, but see that that's why you should, Renee, you should go into, want you to see there, there's your challenge for next week, Renee, is to go and have, go and sit and have a McDonald's because I'm not going to ask you how old you are, but I think.

Renee Smith (40:20)
No.

Yeah, I don't know, I don't go there.

you

You

Not gonna happen.

Simon Dell (40:44)
But I think

you and I grew up in the same era where McDonald's was like a special occasion treat type thing. it was absolutely, you know, and you, yeah, but you look forward to that, but nobody looks forward to going to a McDonald's anymore.

Renee Smith (40:48)
Yeah.

Saturday night actually, and a block of Cadbury. You do?

I don't know, I actually disconnect and I disassociate, I don't know. I do see that I still am surprised that they have customers.

Simon Dell (41:13)
I think you have to go. think you have now made a case that you have to go to McDonald's next week and have a Big Mac. And then and then we do another podcast where we'll just call it Renee's visit to McDonald's. Renee reports back from McDonald's.

Renee Smith (41:23)
Okay and you, Renee's a such a makers, what did she think about, I mean you know, but if you're talking about brand,

if you're talking about brand, they are clearly a leader in branding. They've always been. Coke, you know McDonald's have always been the celebrated leaders.

Simon Dell (41:40)
They have they have but then you look at something like and I saw this analysis the other day of five guys. I don't know if you've ever eaten at five guys which is another merit. It's an American burger chain.

Renee Smith (41:47)
No. I think that's a Queensland.

Yeah, they're in the green side. I don't know they're down in here.

Simon Dell (41:55)
No, yeah, they're up. I think they're up here. them in and out burger, they're the ones that sort of I would say new generation fast food burger restaurants from America. But the five guys brand is just it's making money hand over fist. It's in it's insane when you look to I think their turnover was something like $600 million on the back of 250 restaurants.

Renee Smith (42:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Dell (42:20)
And I divided that down and just went, shit, these guys are making five, six grand a day per restaurant. And then you go, well, if it's five, six grand a day and it's 25, let's say everyone's spending 25 bucks in there, just getting, just the footfall through that is massive. But I think with those brands, there's a loyalty. People still wanna go back. Like there is with Grilled, they wanna go back. They wanna experience it again.

Renee Smith (42:46)
And I

think that experience, if I could just touch on joy and the resonance of joy in this conversation because I think that...

in the environment, the world environment and the economy that we're in, customers are looking, they want more happiness and more joy and they're resonating with brands that bring that. So, you know, we talk about radical optimism and how do we be the brand that brings joy to the customer and what problem are we solving and how are we making sure they have fun. So, I think it's, you know, joy is a, and potentially what you're experiencing when you go there is joy.

You know, can be quite as simple as that. Yeah, good food, but what's around it? Well, you've had a good experience.

Simon Dell (43:30)
Yeah, I think that's the hardest vibe to, the hardest vibe to deliver, I think, is joy. And I'll leave this sort of with a comment, but I remember someone came to us about a year, year and a half ago, looking for us to help them recruit a customer service, customer service something. And he'd give me a job description, and we were talking on the phone, and he said, look, he goes, I want,

Renee Smith (43:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Dell (43:58)
to hire someone who when they have finished talking to the customer, the customer feels happier after having had a conversation with them. Now that wasn't about outcome. wasn't, he was like, we may have been able to help them, we may not have been able to help them. They may have had a complaint, they may have had an issue, whatever. He said that it's not about being happy for the outcome of the conversation. It's being happy because I've spoken to somebody else who feels, who,

emits happiness, emits joy, emits warmth. everything we've sort of spoken about today, I go, I think if you can get your brand to do that as much as you can get one person on the phone to do that, I think that's a real success factor.

Renee Smith (44:40)
Yeah.

I agree and I think you know the brands like I say have got their they know who they are and they're delivering on the joy proposition and they're doing that in a meaningful way and they're able to automate that process directly with the customer then you're just going to you're going to experience a growth, increased conversions.

Simon Dell (45:07)
Yeah.

Renee Smith (45:07)
It's natural.

Simon Dell (45:07)
Okay.

Renee Smith (45:08)
I think the question that I pose to businesses is, well, how are you going to do that? Because you're growing. How are you going to scale that? And I think in the world of AI and automation now, it gives us that ability to scale. So those one-on-one conversations just happen all day. And it happens in real time with the customer when they start their journey with the brand instead of it being, we're doing the EDM is going to go out Thursday morning.

it can but what if I don't want to wait till Thursday morning what if I have just connected with the brand and I want to go now and so the systems that that I deliver in the 90 day program

do that and they can automate an entire customer journey. ⁓ So I think beyond 2026, businesses that have the capacity and the tech stack to do that will be the ones that succeed. And you layer on the love, the happiness, the joy, and the purpose, well I think you've got success.

Simon Dell (46:11)
Yeah. Look, I think we've both got objectives for next week. You to go and have a McDonald's. ⁓ And me to go to Cotton On and ⁓ try and feel happiness from a Cotton On.

Renee Smith (46:16)
I do go to McDonald's, I?

Ha ha!

Simon Dell (46:27)
But Rene, thank you for your time again today. It's again, it's been a fantastic conversation. just lastly, where do people find you if they want to talk to you?

Renee Smith (46:32)
I appreciate it.

Okay, I'm just in process of getting a website up, so in the interim they can find me at CMO via you or on LinkedIn.

Simon Dell (46:42)
Yep.

Okay, cool. There's a couple of Renee Smiths in there, but there's only one with the cool glasses. ⁓ You know, I think you know, no, no, no, there's a couple of there's a couple of Renee Smiths on LinkedIn, though. ⁓ So but I think you're you're fairly easily identifiable there. So ⁓ thank you for your time today. ⁓ Really, really appreciate it.

Renee Smith (46:49)
Yeah. It's not on SEMO though, there's only one Renee Smith on SEMO. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me,

I appreciate the conversation. Take care, see ya.

Simon Dell (47:07)
Not a problem.