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Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello, and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the Ice Studio with Helen

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Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

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It's a new year, but it's
lots of the same old news.

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So firstly, let's go over Helen
to your patch to America, because

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we wanted to talk about ICE
immigration and customs enforcement.

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Not least due to the, let's say
the fatal shooting of, a young

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American woman, Rene Goode.

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Helen: So Ice has been around since 2003.

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However, under the first tramp term
it massively ramped up, and this

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time it has gone absolutely crazy.

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They have, I think, doubled the
number of agents They put aside

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tens of billions of pounds.

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Do you remember the big, beautiful bill
just massively increased the funding

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to it, and it always had two parts, one
of which was basically like tracking

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down fentanyl smugglers and, child
trafficking rings and things like that.

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And another was finding day-to-day
immigrants whose only offense was

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overstaying their visa or entering
the country illegally, whatever.

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And really it sucked all the resources
from that bit, the smashing the

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gangs bit to essentially going
door to door and hassling people's

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gardeners and stuff like that.

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one of the ways that Trump has used
it is he has sent it along with the

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National Guard into Blue Cities,
many of which have explicitly

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declared that they're sanctuaries.

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They don't, they, their
local law enforcement don't

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want to cooperate with ice.

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Ice is incredibly unpopular.

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Actually now a majority of
Democrats want it abolished.

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because what they do is they dress up
in camo gear and cover their faces and

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hassle people dropping their kids off
at nursery or whatever it might be.

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They are renowned as being a kind
of, unpleasant, paramilitary kind

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of style force on American streets.

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Ian: And you've said that if you recruit
people in a hurry, With none of the

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usual safeguards, that's who you get.

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Helen: I think so they've, as I
say, they say it like should take

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about 18 months to train an agent.

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They just haven't had the time to do that.

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Even in the Trump term, where are
they getting these people from?

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Are they vetting them enough?

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we have the story here in Britain
about the Mets dropping some of

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its vetting because they would had
such a push to put on new offices.

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So politicians think it's amazing to
say, let's have more bobs on the beat.

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Let's have more ice officers.

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But, you if you shortcut
that process, you do it.

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Your Pernille

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Andy: And the, the Met, the
Metropolitan police have had to drop

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plenty of officers they recruited
because they found they, they've

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been guilty of various, quite serious

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offenses.

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Yeah.

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Violent crimes or sexual
crimes or whatever it might

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Helen: be.

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Yeah, although not the case for
the guy who shot, Rene Goode.

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Now, he had been in Iceberg for 10 years.

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He was a military veteran.

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However, there were a couple
of things that were really

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important to what happened there.

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One was about, six months ago he had
another traffic stop, tried to open a

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door, knocked through the window, tried
to open the door from the inside, and

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then end up being dragged along the road.

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and that is against protocol by the way.

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You shouldn't hang onto a
vehicle when it's driving.

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Also, most law enforcement agencies in
the US, you are told not to shoot into

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a moving vehicle because guess what?

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One of the things that can happen is
if someone gets shot, they put their

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foot down on the accelerator and they
might then take out someone else.

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So this person was not really obeying
the kind of code of conduct manual.

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You'd hope the incident also
escalated incredibly quickly

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from the woman in the car saying.

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nothing go about your day to
within 10 seconds getting shot.

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It wasn't one of those really
unpleasant policing situations where

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you see, people like the police are
just overwhelmed and might be in

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fear of what's gonna happen next.

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The administration's argument
is that they, that the officer

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was in fear of his life.

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He thought he was gonna get run over very

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Andy: administration's

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Ian: Trump

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directed said he was run

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over

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and

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Helen: Into hospital.

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Yeah.

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And, went into hospital.

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And there's video when you can see
how wheels are turning to go past him.

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And also you see him walking away.

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But for me, one of the most, our whole
situation's really unpleasant for me.

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The most unpleasant bit about this is that
immediately after it was on the video that

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the Trump administration released after,
taken by him, the officer who shot, Rene.

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Good.

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He says, fucking bitch
immediately after shooting her

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three times through the window.

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And to me that just says, that is
a, an officer who is annoyed, right?

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Not somebody who is in fear of their
life, who's terrified, but someone who

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is just has panicked and lost control.

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And I think that's what really worries
people about the way that ICE is working

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in the US is that you have undisciplined,
heavily armed officers doing unpopular

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law enforcement with limited powers.

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They're not supposed to go after citizens.

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Renee Good was a citizen and being
followed around now by, as a result,

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protestors, and it's, I don't think
it's an overstatement to, I say to say

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that I think the Trump administration
quite likes this ratcheting up dy

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dynamic where, what they would call
kind of blue haired lesbians are now

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getting into rucks with ice officers.

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The ice officers are, now essentially,
I would say, almost permitted to be

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violent because we know from the pardons
of all the January 6th protesters,

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many of whom attacked police officers
that anyone who does violence in the

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name of Trump probably gonna get a
Trump pardon, even if it makes it

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as far as the courts and they get

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Andy: JD Vance, I think has actually
explicitly said he's got immunity

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from prosecution, The, officer,

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Helen: JD Vance and immediately and other
members of the administration immediately

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came out and said she deserved it.

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Moral in more or less those terms.

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And then you had all these
mag affiliated influences.

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There's a new term that they bring up
now that she was an Awful, she was an

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affluent white female, urban liberal.

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And such people are, of course,
extremely uppity and annoying.

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And they're exactly the kind of
people who are overly sympathetic

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to illegal immigration.

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They get in the way of male law
enforcement officers and they

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don't realize how violent could
be and what's coming to them.

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and I like this, die?

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And that, but I think that's
the screaming subtext of it,

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That you, got in the way of him.

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She wasn't really doing anything
illegal is immediately obvious.

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You could say that possibly she
was refusing to comply with their

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Ian: She

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parked the car in the middle
of the road, I suppose is

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Helen: That's Yeah.

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but it's,

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Andy: she was

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Adam: trying to remove the car from
the middle of the road at the moment

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she got

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Helen: shot,

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Yeah, but that's what I mean.

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It's all extremely tenuous and Their
explanation is they were acting as

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legal observers of what ICE were doing.

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So that, that's the kind of
thing that would, you'd end up

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getting litigated in a court case.

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But of course, ICE is gonna, so another
thing that Trump did, abolish the three

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oversight agencies that look into ICE's,

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Andy: was going to.

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ask,

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Helen: do,

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Andy: where is the oversight?

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Helen: Trump admin has blocked Minnesota
as a blue state, from investigating this.

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the FBI under Cash Patel, might look into
it, but I just think they're, equally as

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likely to look into whether or not she was
a criminal as the officer who shot her.

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And I don't really see how you get a
conviction in the circumstances where

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very senior people in the administration
have already come out and said.

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He did nothing wrong.

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She deserved it.

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as a politician, you're supposed
to, that's why they say all

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those platitudes, right?

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About we'll let the
investigation take its course.

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I don't wanna rush to judgment because the
alternative is this, which is basically,

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Trump has declared her innocent and then

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the officer

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innocent.

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Declare the officer innocent.

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Yeah.

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Ian: And this seemed to be a very specific
example of, undermining reality, which

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Trump has done so that he shows the video.

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people can see the videos that
the officer took themselves.

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And then the action is then described in a
way that's totally unrecognizable to what

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you're watching by the official spokesman.

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So you get to the point where we've
all been saying it for a very long

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time is that, the assault on reality,
there's no such thing as truth anymore.

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But you watch that and you think, does
it not matter at all what we're seeing?

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Helen: I don't, think it does to,
the kind of information sphere that

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he's got around him, and I agree
with you, it's really disturbing, but

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everything that Trump has done with
ice, I think is really disturbing.

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So he's massively expanded it.

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There was a target of 3000 arrests a
day, loads more money for it, while

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at the same time reducing the amount
of money for immigration judges.

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So the idea is that people just get
kept in detainment for a long time.

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And here's something that I thought was
very private Irish when I read about it.

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Constant revolving door between top
ice officials and say private prison

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providers, the kind of people who get
contracts to run detention centers.

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So there is a kind of, yeah, ice
industrial complex essentially

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that a lot of people are
making a lot of money out of.

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And there are some, even
for people watching this.

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Probably aren't going to be
legally route to America.

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Need to be aware of some
stuff that's been happening.

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Like they will stop people for no reason.

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Visa overstayers for example, if you
overstay your Esther or your Visa, that

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has ended up with British nationals being
held in like Louisiana prisons for several

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months before going through the system.

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People turning up to visa appointments
and getting arrested on the way into

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those, like someone will classically
say goodbye to their wife and child,

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go into the appointment and some tiny
bit on their record will have flagged

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something and then they just won't come
out again and no one will understand

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what's happened to them for several days
until they finally get their phone call.

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I mean it, it is, I try not to
get too, hysterical about things

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that are happening under Trump.

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But this is one that I think
people should be aware of because I

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think it not only affects America,
it affects us over here too.

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If you're traveling to America, you wanna
be aware that this is what's happening.

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there are essentially heavily
armed paramilitary forces wandering

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around the cities of America.

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Adam: At the same time as he's
threatening military action against

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Iran for shooting protesters,

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Helen: he's threatening military
action against everybody.

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Andy: Yes.

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new thing now, isn't it?

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man who gonna stop forever Wars now
just wants forever wars with everyone.

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I'm just, I'm curious because so many of
these, incidents are filmed from several

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angles because everyone has a phone in the
pocket these days and they, can do, I'm

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just curious about what is happening in
incidents which aren't filmed if this is

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how bad things are getting in incidents,
which there, there are several shots of,

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Helen: Yeah, ICE has been
involved in several shootings

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already, in the Trump term.

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and there's definitely an uptick
in trends of them doing that.

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And you're right, one on earth is
happening in those detention centers

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where no one has a, mobile phone.

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We know the conditions in them
can be really quite unpleasant.

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at one point Trump was shipping people off
to, sea Cot, the, the prison in exactly.

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He was under B Ley.

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The whole idea is basically we want
this to be horrible and Grotesquely

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obviously horrible 'cause we want
people to either self deport or not

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try and make the, take the risk of
illegal immigration in the first place.

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my Atlantic colleague, Adam
Soer, wrote about it and said,

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the cruelty is the point, right?

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These are, this is not
happening by accident.

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Ian: Can I ask you about the idea you are
being told what to do by a, Lippy woman?

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Yeah.

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completely unacceptable because
on the video bits I've seen

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at one point, the deceased's
partner says, go and have lunch.

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What are you doing?

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in a way that is a tiny
bit confrontational.

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Helen: she's

234
00:10:32,552 --> 00:10:33,392
taunting him, isn't

235
00:10:33,392 --> 00:10:33,602
she?

236
00:10:33,602 --> 00:10:33,692
It's

237
00:10:34,142 --> 00:10:35,342
Adam: rather than isn't,

238
00:10:35,342 --> 00:10:35,597
Ian: yes.

239
00:10:36,527 --> 00:10:36,707
rather.

240
00:10:36,707 --> 00:10:41,117
But my, my own, limited experience of
America and obviously watching too many

241
00:10:41,117 --> 00:10:44,927
films is if an American police officer
of any description comes and needs

242
00:10:44,927 --> 00:10:47,117
you, you just do whatever you're told.

243
00:10:47,387 --> 00:10:48,497
'cause you don't want to die.

244
00:10:49,086 --> 00:10:52,746
Helen: they're not real law enforcement
in the sense that they don't have

245
00:10:52,746 --> 00:10:54,199
the right to arrest citizens.

246
00:10:54,486 --> 00:10:57,576
They're there to do civil enforcement
of immigration offenses, right?

247
00:10:57,696 --> 00:11:01,176
They're not there to, if you run a red
light, to also pick you up for that.

248
00:11:01,536 --> 00:11:05,406
So I think people have maybe had
a, either a false belief or a hope

249
00:11:05,406 --> 00:11:08,796
that if you're a US citizen, there's
not a lot they can do to you.

250
00:11:09,256 --> 00:11:11,386
Ironically, this shooting happened
about a mile away from where

251
00:11:11,386 --> 00:11:13,246
George Floyd was killed in 2020.

252
00:11:13,666 --> 00:11:16,366
And there has been a long
level of discourse among black

253
00:11:16,366 --> 00:11:17,326
Americans for a long time.

254
00:11:17,326 --> 00:11:20,656
If you get to a traffic stop, that is
something that's really dangerous for

255
00:11:20,656 --> 00:11:24,736
You they are on a hair trigger and maybe
white Americans didn't realize until quite

256
00:11:24,736 --> 00:11:28,636
recently that this was something that was
really quite scary for black Americans.

257
00:11:29,296 --> 00:11:31,216
so I think there's all of that into it.

258
00:11:31,246 --> 00:11:33,011
But, I dunno if you've ever watched any.

259
00:11:34,016 --> 00:11:37,946
Videos of p of police protests,
interacting with protestors here is

260
00:11:37,946 --> 00:11:40,976
something that police are trained
to deal with as people getting

261
00:11:40,976 --> 00:11:42,236
goy, getting lippy with them.

262
00:11:42,536 --> 00:11:45,866
And most of the training is
oriented around deescalation because

263
00:11:45,866 --> 00:11:49,076
normally you have a handful of
police officers and several, being

264
00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,446
outnumbered heavily by protesters.

265
00:11:51,806 --> 00:11:54,476
So I think that's the, one of the
things that really comes across in that

266
00:11:54,476 --> 00:11:57,386
is that the instinct for these people
was not to deescalate it was to try

267
00:11:57,386 --> 00:11:59,036
and drag this woman out of her car.

268
00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:02,906
And again, the manuals for most law
enforcement in America say, don't

269
00:12:02,906 --> 00:12:06,376
shoot into a moving vehicle unless
you think that person is a immortal

270
00:12:06,376 --> 00:12:07,846
danger to others, let them escape.

271
00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:10,606
You've got the license plates, you've
got the picture of what they look like.

272
00:12:10,606 --> 00:12:13,876
You can, you'd be able to ident
identify them and arrest them later.

273
00:12:14,206 --> 00:12:16,846
And instead of doing that,
they escalated the situation.

274
00:12:17,086 --> 00:12:21,046
And I think that is something that
is, it does feel like it's changed

275
00:12:21,046 --> 00:12:22,061
in the last couple of years.

276
00:12:22,456 --> 00:12:25,546
Ian: because she did say the number
of plates will be the same tomorrow.

277
00:12:25,546 --> 00:12:26,836
We're just going home to park.

278
00:12:26,986 --> 00:12:27,286
Helen: Yeah.

279
00:12:28,326 --> 00:12:32,766
you could say this is a result of poorly
trained, poorly disciplined officers.

280
00:12:32,766 --> 00:12:37,146
Or you could say this is exactly
the result that was inevitable

281
00:12:37,146 --> 00:12:39,216
with the policies that this
administration is pursuing.

282
00:12:41,601 --> 00:12:44,451
Andy: I'm not gonna ask if things
are gonna improve because I, you've

283
00:12:44,451 --> 00:12:45,711
given me no reason to ask that

284
00:12:45,746 --> 00:12:45,981
Helen: question.

285
00:12:45,981 --> 00:12:48,921
I don't see under what, Trump gave
an interview to the New York Times

286
00:12:48,921 --> 00:12:51,861
last week in which he said, there's
no restraints on me except me.

287
00:12:51,861 --> 00:12:52,611
And what I think

288
00:12:53,301 --> 00:12:54,621
Adam: we actually said
his personal morality.

289
00:12:54,621 --> 00:12:55,041
And I thought, we

290
00:12:55,041 --> 00:12:55,341
really

291
00:12:55,461 --> 00:12:55,911
screwed then.

292
00:12:55,911 --> 00:12:56,241
No because

293
00:12:56,271 --> 00:12:56,331
Helen: you

294
00:12:56,331 --> 00:12:56,481
haven't

295
00:12:56,481 --> 00:12:56,601
got

296
00:12:56,601 --> 00:12:56,811
any

297
00:12:56,811 --> 00:12:56,871
of

298
00:12:56,871 --> 00:12:56,881
that.

299
00:12:57,409 --> 00:13:00,589
to link this back to World Affairs,
that's the same case with Greenland.

300
00:13:01,099 --> 00:13:04,819
Is Europe really prepared to
what go to war with America?

301
00:13:05,179 --> 00:13:07,699
And he's taking the bet that
we won't, there'll be no real

302
00:13:07,699 --> 00:13:11,599
diplomatic or financial consequences
if he violated Article five of

303
00:13:11,599 --> 00:13:12,139
nato.

304
00:13:12,691 --> 00:13:15,439
So who's, who is going to
stop him is the question.

305
00:13:15,564 --> 00:13:15,784
And

306
00:13:15,934 --> 00:13:19,354
Ian: But his only personal
morality is, that of ownership.

307
00:13:19,864 --> 00:13:23,674
and he cannot seem to get it into his
head that Greenland is part of nato.

308
00:13:23,854 --> 00:13:25,714
It has an enormous American base on it.

309
00:13:26,044 --> 00:13:30,094
If he'd like it to be more secure,
they'd be very happy to have even more

310
00:13:30,094 --> 00:13:33,429
enormous American bases on it, spending
as much money as humanly possible.

311
00:13:34,144 --> 00:13:36,934
it's inbuilt into Greenland to be secure.

312
00:13:37,084 --> 00:13:38,164
That's the point of it.

313
00:13:38,314 --> 00:13:40,204
But that's not enough for him.

314
00:13:40,294 --> 00:13:41,284
He has to own it.

315
00:13:41,764 --> 00:13:43,534
And that's true in all of his dealings.

316
00:13:43,534 --> 00:13:47,404
Even in Gaza, we gonna say
there is no point in anything.

317
00:13:47,804 --> 00:13:49,369
For Trump, unless he personally

318
00:13:49,369 --> 00:13:49,663
owns

319
00:13:49,663 --> 00:13:49,699
Adam: it.

320
00:13:49,699 --> 00:13:49,879
Unless

321
00:13:49,879 --> 00:13:51,229
he owns it and puts his name on it.

322
00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:54,914
So it will be turned into Trumpland
the minute he's taken it over, won't

323
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:56,479
Helen: the Trump Kennedy Center sign

324
00:13:56,479 --> 00:13:56,779
across

325
00:13:56,779 --> 00:13:56,869
the

326
00:13:56,869 --> 00:13:57,079
front.

327
00:13:57,109 --> 00:13:57,589
Yeah, but you're right.

328
00:13:58,009 --> 00:13:59,869
that's the story of Venezuela's Oil.

329
00:13:59,869 --> 00:14:01,279
That's the story of
Greenland's Natural Resources.

330
00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:04,849
That's the story of the Baddiel that he
wanted Ukraine to sign, that essentially

331
00:14:04,849 --> 00:14:08,029
they were gonna pay for the war outta by
hunting over their minerals to America.

332
00:14:08,299 --> 00:14:12,319
It's just I've got a bigger gun than you
and I want it, so why can't I have it?

333
00:14:13,849 --> 00:14:16,849
yeah, sorry Andy, about that for,
the new year, I'm not bringing

334
00:14:16,849 --> 00:14:18,289
sunshine and joy and light.

335
00:14:18,289 --> 00:14:21,139
I'm bringing a kind of, I would
think quite carefully about traveling

336
00:14:21,139 --> 00:14:22,399
to America if you don't have to.

337
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:25,130
Andy: I'd play it safe
and go back to Rio if I

338
00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:25,290
Helen: were

339
00:14:25,290 --> 00:14:25,610
you, Huh?

340
00:14:26,158 --> 00:14:26,410
Exactly.

341
00:14:26,585 --> 00:14:29,915
I wanna go somewhere with the rule
of law means something Saudi Arabia.

342
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:37,000
Andy: right there's now another,
newest member of Reform in town.

343
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:37,540
Very exciting.

344
00:14:37,540 --> 00:14:38,560
And Mr. Nadim Zaha

345
00:14:38,785 --> 00:14:40,435
an exciting new talent Yeah.

346
00:14:40,435 --> 00:14:40,555
That

347
00:14:40,555 --> 00:14:41,645
they've unearthed from Yeah.

348
00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:45,280
Former chancellor, for race, for two days.

349
00:14:45,285 --> 00:14:45,295
Yeah.

350
00:14:45,295 --> 00:14:45,610
Yeah.

351
00:14:45,805 --> 00:14:45,955
Yeah.

352
00:14:46,045 --> 00:14:46,055
Ian: Yeah.

353
00:14:46,135 --> 00:14:46,345
Yes.

354
00:14:46,885 --> 00:14:49,825
Nigel Farage, when he was
announcing him, said that Zaha

355
00:14:50,065 --> 00:14:51,715
had the necessary conviction,

356
00:14:51,865 --> 00:14:52,045
which

357
00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:54,535
Andy: it was only

358
00:14:54,535 --> 00:14:54,565
a

359
00:14:54,565 --> 00:14:55,045
fine,

360
00:14:55,315 --> 00:14:55,645
Ian: yeah.

361
00:14:56,185 --> 00:14:56,845
Pretty tough

362
00:14:56,845 --> 00:14:57,355
on the rest

363
00:14:57,355 --> 00:15:00,805
of the reform candidates
who've got, proper ones.

364
00:15:01,765 --> 00:15:06,835
no, yet another appointment of a
man with after two seconds inquiry

365
00:15:06,835 --> 00:15:10,915
by even the least diligence of
hacks, an extraordinary, dodgy

366
00:15:10,915 --> 00:15:15,265
backstory that you would think, why
do you want to appoint this man?

367
00:15:15,598 --> 00:15:20,763
this man was, found by the Ethics
Committee, to be guilty of not declaring

368
00:15:21,063 --> 00:15:27,873
that he had, the tax, authorities looking
into him while he was a cabinet minister.

369
00:15:27,993 --> 00:15:29,133
That isn't good.

370
00:15:29,463 --> 00:15:32,163
Not by any old standard, just generally,

371
00:15:32,208 --> 00:15:35,868
Andy: Ian, it was only 3.7
billion pounds of unpaid tax.

372
00:15:36,768 --> 00:15:40,398
which of us has not just occasionally
neglected to pay that amount.

373
00:15:40,683 --> 00:15:40,713
Helen: I

374
00:15:40,713 --> 00:15:40,833
know.

375
00:15:40,833 --> 00:15:43,053
And now I'm gonna get lectures
on how my metropolitan elite by a

376
00:15:43,053 --> 00:15:46,263
guy who has stables, which to be
fair, aren't very metropolitan, but

377
00:15:46,263 --> 00:15:49,083
like nonetheless it's just again,
it's just a whole thing is mind

378
00:15:49,083 --> 00:15:49,383
blowing.

379
00:15:49,473 --> 00:15:49,593
Ian: Yeah.

380
00:15:49,653 --> 00:15:52,953
And this is the man who said one
of the things that attracted him to

381
00:15:52,953 --> 00:15:55,713
reform was belief in freedom of speech.

382
00:15:56,223 --> 00:16:01,533
Now there was very little, enthusiasm
by Mr. Zaha for freedom of speech when

383
00:16:01,533 --> 00:16:06,183
he said I'd been smeared by journalists
smeared in the sense of they told

384
00:16:06,183 --> 00:16:09,603
the truth about him, which he then
had to admit and say he should have

385
00:16:09,603 --> 00:16:14,973
declared it earlier and then pay his
unpaid capital gains tax and his fine.

386
00:16:15,753 --> 00:16:16,953
That's, a new definition of

387
00:16:16,953 --> 00:16:17,463
freedom of

388
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:17,703
Andy: speech

389
00:16:17,703 --> 00:16:18,003
rather.

390
00:16:18,003 --> 00:16:21,063
Adam: A lot of legal letters I recall
rocketing about warning journalists off

391
00:16:21,213 --> 00:16:24,273
exercising their freedom of speech and
even asking Mrs. Harvey questions at the

392
00:16:24,375 --> 00:16:24,543
Andy: time.

393
00:16:24,903 --> 00:16:25,173
Adam: yes,

394
00:16:25,513 --> 00:16:28,248
Ian: And, in his very first
interview, I sound as though I'm

395
00:16:28,248 --> 00:16:30,198
obsessed, but I cannot believe it.

396
00:16:30,198 --> 00:16:33,978
We have to watch this man being
declared as exciting new candidate,

397
00:16:34,218 --> 00:16:35,928
exciting new member of reform.

398
00:16:36,648 --> 00:16:40,668
and then he's asked a question, and
he says, that's a stupid question.

399
00:16:40,818 --> 00:16:44,208
And then he has a go at the
journalist for going on about it.

400
00:16:44,448 --> 00:16:47,418
We are going on about
your extremely dodgy past.

401
00:16:47,568 --> 00:16:52,278
You keep making these mistakes
originally in declaring your

402
00:16:52,278 --> 00:16:56,928
expenses with the stables, more
mistakes all the way along the line.

403
00:16:56,988 --> 00:16:59,688
And now you've joined
reform, which if I may say so

404
00:16:59,808 --> 00:17:00,078
is a

405
00:17:00,078 --> 00:17:00,623
catastrophic

406
00:17:00,633 --> 00:17:01,533
Andy: strong mistake

407
00:17:02,088 --> 00:17:02,208
Ian: for

408
00:17:02,208 --> 00:17:04,668
which you will no doubt
apologize at some point.

409
00:17:04,953 --> 00:17:08,763
Helen: It's all so maga though, the idea
that you wash out of mainstream politics

410
00:17:08,763 --> 00:17:12,993
or whatever it might have been, and
then you end up going into a populous

411
00:17:12,993 --> 00:17:16,293
party and then you spend all your time
when people bring up your past mistakes.

412
00:17:16,293 --> 00:17:17,973
Then just having a go at the media.

413
00:17:18,213 --> 00:17:20,943
That is exactly how
every bit of, MAGA works.

414
00:17:21,093 --> 00:17:24,543
It's people who just, you who, washed out
with something, who failed at something

415
00:17:24,543 --> 00:17:27,543
else, who never got quite the recognition
that they thought they deserved.

416
00:17:27,753 --> 00:17:27,873
Yeah.

417
00:17:27,873 --> 00:17:31,473
They end up in, the, in a populous
right party, which is a bit offensive

418
00:17:31,473 --> 00:17:32,673
to the voters of those parties.

419
00:17:32,853 --> 00:17:34,563
That you just get a load of retreads

420
00:17:34,863 --> 00:17:37,923
Adam: I think gonna end up being very
problematic for Nigel Farage because his

421
00:17:37,923 --> 00:17:40,383
point has been, oh, we need some people
with experience that we can get in.

422
00:17:40,383 --> 00:17:44,403
But this new alternative, party that's
gonna take over from the conservatives,

423
00:17:44,403 --> 00:17:47,223
he is starting to look very similar
to the old conservative party.

424
00:17:47,343 --> 00:17:49,053
literally it's the same
people now, isn't he?

425
00:17:49,053 --> 00:17:52,413
It's, he's, there must have
been about a dozen of them now

426
00:17:52,415 --> 00:17:55,715
Andy: but look, we are recording
this in London and I know that to

427
00:17:55,715 --> 00:18:00,365
get here today, you'll have had to go
through several Sharia no-Go areas.

428
00:18:00,735 --> 00:18:04,560
London is in the grip of a crime
wave run by foreign criminal gangs.

429
00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:07,620
We are seeing a flight from London,
particularly of people who've got

430
00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:09,750
children, and that's Nigel Farage there.

431
00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:11,730
he's not talking about nursery fees.

432
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,190
He's talking, I'm not talking
about people wanting to have a

433
00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:15,870
garden when they've got toddlers.

434
00:18:15,870 --> 00:18:16,200
No, he's

435
00:18:16,215 --> 00:18:17,835
Ian: God, this is said with real

436
00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:18,240
Andy: conviction.

437
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:25,530
this is, this is the sort of the
politics of London and how it's, become.

438
00:18:25,902 --> 00:18:29,742
Effectively 1980s New York for
a lot of the imagination of,

439
00:18:30,372 --> 00:18:31,872
of various political parties.

440
00:18:31,872 --> 00:18:34,872
And in fact, in a 19 like New
York now thinks of London as

441
00:18:34,872 --> 00:18:36,312
being like 1980s New York.

442
00:18:36,342 --> 00:18:38,202
It makes no sense in a lot of ways.

443
00:18:38,232 --> 00:18:41,292
Helen: Oh yeah, no, if you put London
in the, like with every American city

444
00:18:41,292 --> 00:18:45,432
in terms of the homicide rate, it'd
just be, we'd land by some little

445
00:18:45,432 --> 00:18:47,532
tiny Podunk town in Ohio somewhere.

446
00:18:47,562 --> 00:18:47,652
Yeah.

447
00:18:47,922 --> 00:18:50,772
So it is quite odd that it's been
built up into this sort of like

448
00:18:50,982 --> 00:18:53,442
gang warfare, sharia wasteland.

449
00:18:53,492 --> 00:18:56,612
Andy: the reason I started with the
Farage quote is because there are a few

450
00:18:56,612 --> 00:18:59,762
bits of Londony news in the last few
days, which tie everything together.

451
00:19:00,227 --> 00:19:03,319
reform, have just announced their
candidate for the next mayoral elections.

452
00:19:04,367 --> 00:19:05,927
two and a half years before they happen.

453
00:19:05,927 --> 00:19:08,867
They're clearly planning on,
a long getting to know you

454
00:19:08,867 --> 00:19:09,737
session for their candidate.

455
00:19:09,737 --> 00:19:10,547
It's called Lila Cunningham.

456
00:19:11,026 --> 00:19:14,506
and the latest stats for murder, or
as apparently we're now having to

457
00:19:14,506 --> 00:19:16,546
call it homicide in London, are out.

458
00:19:17,536 --> 00:19:18,076
Helen: I'm sorry.

459
00:19:18,181 --> 00:19:18,401
Andy: I know I have

460
00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:21,646
Helen: have to translate myself to
American and I just can't undo it.

461
00:19:21,646 --> 00:19:21,886
I know,

462
00:19:22,936 --> 00:19:26,116
Andy: but 97 people were
murdered in London in 2025.

463
00:19:26,866 --> 00:19:29,746
obviously each of those are tragedy,
but it's the lowest rate per a

464
00:19:29,746 --> 00:19:33,496
hundred thousand people since
comparable records began in 1997.

465
00:19:33,976 --> 00:19:37,126
So the head of the Metropolitan
Police, mark Rowley, has said

466
00:19:37,126 --> 00:19:39,016
the evidence is extremely clear.

467
00:19:39,421 --> 00:19:45,061
So London is on plenty of metrics
safer than it's been for a long time.

468
00:19:46,051 --> 00:19:49,571
the murder rate is a, 12th, the rate of
Chicago, , there are crimes which are up,

469
00:19:49,601 --> 00:19:52,241
theft from the person is up in a big way.

470
00:19:52,511 --> 00:19:53,531
Phone snatching is up in

471
00:19:53,531 --> 00:19:54,071
a big way.

472
00:19:54,281 --> 00:19:59,261
these are crimes which are often harder
to police if you have, a couple of

473
00:19:59,261 --> 00:20:00,521
million people walking around with

474
00:20:01,091 --> 00:20:01,756
Helen: the thousand pounds

475
00:20:01,871 --> 00:20:02,381
Andy: phones in

476
00:20:02,381 --> 00:20:02,951
their hands.

477
00:20:03,191 --> 00:20:04,151
It's, it is hard.

478
00:20:04,181 --> 00:20:06,941
It is hard to police, but it is a
crime that people see happening.

479
00:20:07,631 --> 00:20:10,571
it happens to plenty of people and it's
really annoying and the police will

480
00:20:10,571 --> 00:20:13,061
often say, we, can't, help with that.

481
00:20:13,601 --> 00:20:15,551
or that's the perception
that a lot of people have.

482
00:20:16,286 --> 00:20:19,856
Ian: but they do say that about burglary,
in the rest of the country as well.

483
00:20:20,951 --> 00:20:21,161
Andy: Yeah.

484
00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:23,516
Ian: if your phone gets leaked in
London, while that's a bit of an

485
00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:27,026
effort, if your house gets burgled
in quite a lot of the rest of the

486
00:20:27,026 --> 00:20:28,826
country, yeah, we'd love to help.

487
00:20:28,826 --> 00:20:31,826
Andy: the reform candidate for mayor,
last, week when she was, unveiled,

488
00:20:32,006 --> 00:20:35,456
she, talked about, how unsafe she
feels now, or she wouldn't put

489
00:20:35,456 --> 00:20:36,806
her kids on the tube on their own.

490
00:20:36,806 --> 00:20:40,076
But when she was 11, she used to travel
on the Tube network thing absolutely fine.

491
00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:42,566
And I worked out with, in terms of
her age, she's talking about the

492
00:20:42,566 --> 00:20:45,476
late eighties, which is that point
when I can remember the guardian

493
00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:46,466
angels, do you remember them?

494
00:20:46,466 --> 00:20:50,066
Me and the vigilantes from New York
were brought into the London tube

495
00:20:50,066 --> 00:20:52,826
system and there was stuff on the
news about them roaming up and down in

496
00:20:52,826 --> 00:20:56,696
their silly little red berries because
it was so rife with appalling crime.

497
00:20:56,936 --> 00:21:00,026
I, find it a bit like after the
sort of seven seven bombings and

498
00:21:00,026 --> 00:21:03,716
everyone said, this is an absolutely
unprecedented threat that we've never

499
00:21:03,716 --> 00:21:04,856
faced on the streets of London before.

500
00:21:04,856 --> 00:21:06,746
And I can remember coming up to
London as a kid and being absolutely

501
00:21:06,746 --> 00:21:08,186
terrified about the IRA blowing up.

502
00:21:08,216 --> 00:21:11,276
That's why there weren't any
bins in, in stations or anything.

503
00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:12,656
It was an absolute constant threat.

504
00:21:12,806 --> 00:21:15,686
the Howard's bombing, the bombing
Canary Wharf and things right into the

505
00:21:15,686 --> 00:21:19,871
nineties, Everyone seems to just wipe
that from their memories and everything

506
00:21:19,871 --> 00:21:22,751
seems to be an eternal, the worst point
ever, doesn't it, in terms of crime.

507
00:21:24,071 --> 00:21:25,925
I think it's pretty clear
why reform are doing it.

508
00:21:25,972 --> 00:21:28,492
you can't win votes unless you're
saying the country is completely broken.

509
00:21:28,492 --> 00:21:29,422
And particularly

510
00:21:29,616 --> 00:21:29,842
Helen: London,

511
00:21:29,872 --> 00:21:32,332
it's weird to do it when you're
running for Mayor of London.

512
00:21:32,332 --> 00:21:35,392
I can understand if you're trying
to run for anywhere, that is a place

513
00:21:35,392 --> 00:21:37,642
where people have moved out London
anyway, that's got very much older

514
00:21:37,642 --> 00:21:40,732
people who maybe find London really
overwhelming and very different to

515
00:21:40,732 --> 00:21:41,902
how it wasn't the way they remember.

516
00:21:42,082 --> 00:21:47,212
It's very weird to run for an office
on elect me mayor of this shit hole.

517
00:21:47,797 --> 00:21:48,227
Andy: you th you,

518
00:21:48,952 --> 00:21:49,792
Helen: is that gonna work?

519
00:21:49,792 --> 00:21:50,122
I dunno,

520
00:21:50,272 --> 00:21:50,902
Andy: on the posters.

521
00:21:51,232 --> 00:21:53,692
But I think there actually is
a reason to do it and I think

522
00:21:53,692 --> 00:21:55,372
there's precedent for it as well.

523
00:21:55,582 --> 00:21:59,662
Cast your minds back to the house in days
of 2024, which the last time we had a

524
00:21:59,662 --> 00:22:03,322
mayoral election in London, Saddi Kahn was
up for it for a third time for the Labor

525
00:22:03,322 --> 00:22:05,512
party and up against him was Susan Hall,

526
00:22:06,032 --> 00:22:08,642
,
conservative assembly member for London.

527
00:22:08,972 --> 00:22:14,338
Now her campaign was extremely, focused on
this kind of thing and her basic strategy

528
00:22:14,368 --> 00:22:18,268
was to go for lots of people living in,
London's huge, and it's huge and it's.

529
00:22:19,528 --> 00:22:20,638
It's very diverse.

530
00:22:20,698 --> 00:22:21,058
Ian: Oh, no, I knew you were

531
00:22:21,928 --> 00:22:22,453
Andy: you were gonna say that.

532
00:22:22,628 --> 00:22:23,088
Helen: but you're right.

533
00:22:23,088 --> 00:22:23,208
But

534
00:22:23,233 --> 00:22:26,668
Andy: But you get older voters, you
get people in the outer suburbs who are

535
00:22:26,668 --> 00:22:28,678
older, they're socially conservative.

536
00:22:28,918 --> 00:22:30,418
They, they, use their cars more.

537
00:22:30,418 --> 00:22:33,628
So lots of people were very
worried before you Les came in

538
00:22:33,628 --> 00:22:34,888
the ultra low emission zone.

539
00:22:35,338 --> 00:22:36,898
Now that was more of a
worry before it came in.

540
00:22:36,898 --> 00:22:39,478
'cause 95% of cars turn
out that they were fine.

541
00:22:39,508 --> 00:22:40,708
They were compliant with Ulo.

542
00:22:40,948 --> 00:22:46,018
But Susan Hall's campaign was really
strongly pitched, in those directions.

543
00:22:46,183 --> 00:22:49,453
Ian: But she did in a very
memorable interview, admit to

544
00:22:49,453 --> 00:22:51,223
never having been on a bus,

545
00:22:52,153 --> 00:22:58,273
in London and to all of us, who have
lived or, live occasionally in London.

546
00:22:58,705 --> 00:23:03,011
never having been on a bus isn't a
top qualification for becoming mayor.

547
00:23:03,461 --> 00:23:07,031
transport is the one issue in London
that people are very cross about.

548
00:23:07,181 --> 00:23:10,751
They're cross with Sadik Khan,
about the way transport works in

549
00:23:10,751 --> 00:23:15,461
London, the way cyclists, motorists,
and, public services interact.

550
00:23:15,641 --> 00:23:20,351
All of those are valid criticisms, but
I don't see that on the reform agenda.

551
00:23:20,591 --> 00:23:23,873
Where is, let's kick TFLI can't see that.

552
00:23:24,101 --> 00:23:26,771
Helen: But then Zack's Goldsmith
tried to run his conservative mayoral

553
00:23:26,771 --> 00:23:30,311
campaign also on the kind of like
creeping Sharia immigration stuff.

554
00:23:30,311 --> 00:23:30,371
Yeah.

555
00:23:30,371 --> 00:23:34,631
And also lost, whereas Boris Johnson
very successfully won several terms as

556
00:23:34,631 --> 00:23:37,107
mayor under Classic, Boris Boosterism.

557
00:23:37,197 --> 00:23:37,887
It's amazing.

558
00:23:37,887 --> 00:23:38,667
The city's brilliant.

559
00:23:38,667 --> 00:23:40,407
This is a place of
innovation and dynamism.

560
00:23:40,707 --> 00:23:41,127
I don't know.

561
00:23:41,127 --> 00:23:44,037
I think the biggest challenge
to Sadik Khan is his extremely

562
00:23:44,037 --> 00:23:45,297
palate record as mayor.

563
00:23:45,297 --> 00:23:48,327
I don't think anyone really could,
nothing springs to mind immediately

564
00:23:48,327 --> 00:23:49,827
as a great s Kahan achievement.

565
00:23:49,977 --> 00:23:51,897
He hasn't even really punished
to put his name on anything.

566
00:23:52,137 --> 00:23:55,407
And then just a general sense that people
would probably quite like to give labor

567
00:23:55,437 --> 00:23:56,877
who are very unpopular a kicking, right?

568
00:23:57,042 --> 00:23:57,942
Andy: Yeah, absolutely.

569
00:23:57,942 --> 00:23:58,422
Yeah.

570
00:23:58,422 --> 00:23:58,432
Yeah.

571
00:23:58,432 --> 00:23:58,442
Yeah.

572
00:23:58,562 --> 00:24:03,072
I do think that people putting your name
on things is not a good qualification for

573
00:24:03,732 --> 00:24:06,852
putting your name on the Boris bikes is
not all the Boris buses, which heats up to

574
00:24:06,852 --> 00:24:09,132
40 degrees on a mildly warm day in spring.

575
00:24:09,132 --> 00:24:09,432
All of that.

576
00:24:09,432 --> 00:24:10,842
It's not a, it's not perfect.

577
00:24:11,142 --> 00:24:11,734
Ian: but apt.

578
00:24:12,132 --> 00:24:12,312
Andy: Yeah.

579
00:24:12,642 --> 00:24:12,792
Yeah.

580
00:24:12,792 --> 00:24:13,032
True.

581
00:24:13,414 --> 00:24:17,494
Ian: I also think it is funny at the
beginning of a year when I'm worrying

582
00:24:17,494 --> 00:24:22,384
whether the Priva irony Ter is still
working, A woman comes in and says

583
00:24:22,384 --> 00:24:25,264
she's, declaring an all out war on crime.

584
00:24:25,384 --> 00:24:29,254
And then it turns out she's committed
criminal offenses herself in

585
00:24:29,254 --> 00:24:30,904
terms of not filing accounts Yes.

586
00:24:31,084 --> 00:24:32,674
On three separate companies.

587
00:24:33,394 --> 00:24:34,474
that is quite funny.

588
00:24:34,528 --> 00:24:36,238
Andy: three of her companies
were struck off, weren't they?

589
00:24:36,238 --> 00:24:37,198
So forcibly struck

590
00:24:37,228 --> 00:24:37,378
Ian: off.

591
00:24:37,438 --> 00:24:37,678
Yes.

592
00:24:38,995 --> 00:24:39,268
document.

593
00:24:39,268 --> 00:24:42,988
And I did check, just in case the
lawyers are interested, it is a criminal

594
00:24:42,988 --> 00:24:44,818
offense not filing your accounts.

595
00:24:44,818 --> 00:24:47,548
They didn't prosecute her, they struck
the companies off, but they could

596
00:24:47,548 --> 00:24:50,908
have done, and all this has been
denied and swept under the carpet.

597
00:24:50,908 --> 00:24:54,448
And Farage says she's a
successful entrepreneur.

598
00:24:54,958 --> 00:24:55,618
not very

599
00:24:55,763 --> 00:24:56,203
Andy: because these

600
00:24:56,248 --> 00:25:00,208
Ian: companies have all folded and
one of them was selling magnesium

601
00:25:00,208 --> 00:25:02,473
and menthol infused roll on lotion.

602
00:25:02,728 --> 00:25:04,888
And is, this the bright

603
00:25:04,888 --> 00:25:05,908
future of

604
00:25:05,908 --> 00:25:07,318
entrepreneurial London?

605
00:25:07,348 --> 00:25:07,588
Andy: What

606
00:25:08,038 --> 00:25:08,128
Helen: What?

607
00:25:08,128 --> 00:25:08,908
That's a deodorant.

608
00:25:08,908 --> 00:25:09,268
Surely.

609
00:25:09,268 --> 00:25:11,068
That sounds like one of
those woowoo deodorants.

610
00:25:11,068 --> 00:25:11,818
That's my theory.

611
00:25:11,938 --> 00:25:12,358
Andy: Yeah.

612
00:25:12,358 --> 00:25:12,368
Yeah.

613
00:25:12,979 --> 00:25:15,859
Ian: her second husband
is in, involved in crypto.

614
00:25:15,979 --> 00:25:16,129
So

615
00:25:16,208 --> 00:25:16,369
Helen: that's

616
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:17,609
Oh no.

617
00:25:17,609 --> 00:25:17,629
Oh, no.

618
00:25:17,749 --> 00:25:18,199
Ian: reform.

619
00:25:18,349 --> 00:25:22,069
Oh, that must be, but again, this
isn't a candidate that you would

620
00:25:22,069 --> 00:25:25,159
immediately think they must choose that.

621
00:25:25,189 --> 00:25:29,539
Andy: I think the tough on crime message
could theoretically work, but you've got

622
00:25:29,539 --> 00:25:34,279
to persuade more people that London is a
really ghastly place, which is quite hard

623
00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:37,939
because lots of quite targeted policing
has brought various offenses down.

624
00:25:38,089 --> 00:25:41,599
Luxury watch theft is the big thing that
lots of very wealthy people worry about.

625
00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:43,669
They say, I'm not wearing
my Rolex in London anymore.

626
00:25:43,879 --> 00:25:46,909
That's come down, I think two
thirds within the, last two years,

627
00:25:46,909 --> 00:25:48,289
between one year and the next.

628
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:50,479
'cause they've done a lot
of clever policing about it.

629
00:25:50,489 --> 00:25:52,489
I just love the idea of
being populist party.

630
00:25:52,489 --> 00:25:52,939
You're like, we

631
00:25:53,149 --> 00:25:55,339
for the working man and
our number one issue

632
00:25:55,609 --> 00:25:56,039
isn't it?

633
00:25:56,044 --> 00:25:59,329
It's probably not gonna sweep you into
Paris City or just the owners of Rolex

634
00:25:59,329 --> 00:26:01,159
It's No, but I bet Nick
Candy's worried about it,

635
00:26:01,549 --> 00:26:01,609
Yeah.

636
00:26:01,699 --> 00:26:02,389
Helen: no, I bet he is.

637
00:26:03,019 --> 00:26:05,299
Andy: Despite being named after
something you shouldn't do to a baby.

638
00:26:06,019 --> 00:26:06,409
anyway,

639
00:26:07,609 --> 00:26:10,129
the, policy which could
work or the area that.

640
00:26:10,448 --> 00:26:14,438
Faroh gave this tiny mention to, it
went in this launch of Lila Kelham

641
00:26:14,438 --> 00:26:18,518
as a Canada was, oh, you used to
know your local police officer

642
00:26:18,518 --> 00:26:19,328
or a local teacher or whatever.

643
00:26:19,328 --> 00:26:21,398
Now they've all had to leave 'cause
they can't afford to live in London.

644
00:26:21,758 --> 00:26:25,538
Affordability is a massive problem
in London and it's weird that no

645
00:26:25,538 --> 00:26:26,888
one is making more hay with it,

646
00:26:27,383 --> 00:26:30,833
Helen: that's the, that's what drove
Zoran Momani in New York to his victory.

647
00:26:31,013 --> 00:26:33,833
He's got a very leftist set of
political positions, but actually he

648
00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:35,783
really did not talk about them at all.

649
00:26:35,873 --> 00:26:37,763
He ran a pure affordability.

650
00:26:37,763 --> 00:26:39,233
The rent is too damn high.

651
00:26:39,473 --> 00:26:43,043
Halal vans can't get licenses, and
you're paying too much for your Kafta.

652
00:26:43,163 --> 00:26:48,593
Like it was just exactly that broad
message, which, whether you are old or

653
00:26:48,593 --> 00:26:51,653
young in London, most people think London
is a bit too expensive, whether it's about

654
00:26:51,653 --> 00:26:55,223
rents or it's about house price or it's
about your CFL, whatever it might be.

655
00:26:55,523 --> 00:26:59,273
And I just, I'm interested about
whether or not a pure affordability

656
00:26:59,273 --> 00:27:02,483
message would've actually been a
smarter one for reform to, to go

657
00:27:02,483 --> 00:27:02,723
with.

658
00:27:03,158 --> 00:27:03,218
Andy: Yeah.

659
00:27:03,248 --> 00:27:03,428
They

660
00:27:03,428 --> 00:27:07,238
have got a problem, haven't they,
in the, same way that, supporters of

661
00:27:07,238 --> 00:27:10,838
them in the media like GB News have,
and it involves being very proudly

662
00:27:10,838 --> 00:27:13,778
patriotic, but consistently saying
that everything about the country or

663
00:27:13,778 --> 00:27:15,548
the capital city is completely shit.

664
00:27:16,058 --> 00:27:19,118
And that's quite a sort of hard
thing to bridge sometimes, isn't it?

665
00:27:19,568 --> 00:27:19,868
Yeah.

666
00:27:19,958 --> 00:27:24,158
It's, the Boris Boosterism
did, cheer everyone up, even

667
00:27:24,158 --> 00:27:26,168
if a lot of it was rubbish, But

668
00:27:26,168 --> 00:27:27,998
they seem to have given up
on the sunlit, uplands now.

669
00:27:27,998 --> 00:27:29,738
It just seems to be everything is just

670
00:27:29,833 --> 00:27:31,333
all welcome to Mordor.

671
00:27:31,523 --> 00:27:31,813
Yeah.

672
00:27:31,928 --> 00:27:32,138
vote

673
00:27:32,148 --> 00:27:32,528
Helen: For us,

674
00:27:32,908 --> 00:27:34,253
but it's quite a corporate role.

675
00:27:34,253 --> 00:27:37,073
IMI remember going to events where he,
like Boris Johnson would come and talk

676
00:27:37,073 --> 00:27:39,773
to people who worked in the city, and
he would go and give a speech about how

677
00:27:39,773 --> 00:27:40,943
marvelous they all were, and they went.

678
00:27:40,943 --> 00:27:44,273
We are very much like charity events, and
I don't think necessarily that group of

679
00:27:44,273 --> 00:27:46,733
people want to hear this is miserable.

680
00:27:46,943 --> 00:27:48,593
welcome to, as you say, welcome to Mordor.

681
00:27:49,013 --> 00:27:50,843
They want people to come
and invest in London.

682
00:27:50,963 --> 00:27:54,413
that's part of also what the, that
Mayor of London role has always been,

683
00:27:54,563 --> 00:27:57,623
is advocating for London as a global
city that you would bring investment

684
00:27:57,771 --> 00:27:57,908
Andy: inward.

685
00:27:57,923 --> 00:27:58,213
Yeah.

686
00:27:58,478 --> 00:28:01,653
Ian: I literally was in Shaft
Germany the other day and a

687
00:28:01,653 --> 00:28:03,183
very nice woman got off the bus.

688
00:28:03,183 --> 00:28:07,053
You'd come in to see a show and she said,
could you tell me where the theater is?

689
00:28:07,083 --> 00:28:09,993
'cause I'm very worried about
walking anywhere in London.

690
00:28:09,993 --> 00:28:10,923
And I said, it's there.

691
00:28:12,003 --> 00:28:15,123
You literally have to just get
off the steps and get in there.

692
00:28:15,123 --> 00:28:17,433
But I promise you'll probably be fine.

693
00:28:17,973 --> 00:28:19,953
And I think the newspapers have.

694
00:28:20,748 --> 00:28:26,688
Given a version of London that chimes with
their own prejudices, which is bordering

695
00:28:26,688 --> 00:28:33,408
on the silly, we've run a lot of parodies
of, quite often according to Adam expat

696
00:28:33,408 --> 00:28:38,058
columnists who say, I visited London the
other day, first time in years and oh,

697
00:28:39,678 --> 00:28:39,708
Andy: I

698
00:28:39,738 --> 00:28:40,518
Ian: was terrified.

699
00:28:40,543 --> 00:28:44,988
And it, it does read really
very pathetically with any

700
00:28:44,988 --> 00:28:46,518
sort of historical perspective.

701
00:28:46,563 --> 00:28:49,923
Andy: Yeah, I, so to go into a few
of the actual crimes themselves, so

702
00:28:50,763 --> 00:28:54,813
we've done homicide, we've done theft
from the person, we've done luxury

703
00:28:54,813 --> 00:28:56,013
watch theft, we've done the biggies.

704
00:28:57,813 --> 00:29:01,413
violent crime, has gone
up, between 2015 and 2025.

705
00:29:01,533 --> 00:29:02,163
That's a problem.

706
00:29:02,163 --> 00:29:05,133
That's something you can
definitely charge sudi with.

707
00:29:05,823 --> 00:29:07,533
sorry, I don't mean you
can charge him with, sorry

708
00:29:07,598 --> 00:29:07,718
Helen: I

709
00:29:07,718 --> 00:29:08,198
said that wrong.

710
00:29:08,553 --> 00:29:08,703
Andy: You

711
00:29:08,703 --> 00:29:09,183
can't charge

712
00:29:09,243 --> 00:29:09,393
Helen: him.

713
00:29:09,393 --> 00:29:09,963
He did them all.

714
00:29:09,963 --> 00:29:11,103
Actually, the lawyers are listening.

715
00:29:11,103 --> 00:29:11,403
He did

716
00:29:11,403 --> 00:29:11,980
every single one.

717
00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:14,890
Andy: gun crime is, lower in London
than in, in plenty of other bits

718
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:17,860
of the UK and it's down, I think
it's down pretty much everywhere.

719
00:29:17,980 --> 00:29:18,160
Like

720
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,530
that knife crime.

721
00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,446
it is down in the last year,
but it is higher than it was a

722
00:29:23,531 --> 00:29:23,761
Ian: decade

723
00:29:23,761 --> 00:29:23,851
ago.

724
00:29:23,851 --> 00:29:24,931
It's down from quite high,

725
00:29:25,091 --> 00:29:25,171
Andy: it?

726
00:29:25,171 --> 00:29:25,451
Yeah.

727
00:29:25,451 --> 00:29:25,611
Yeah.

728
00:29:25,611 --> 00:29:31,066
That it's I think, pretty close to the pre
pandemic Pique, which is at about 2019.

729
00:29:31,246 --> 00:29:35,686
So knife, crime is definitely one of the
ones where the policing hasn't worked yet.

730
00:29:35,731 --> 00:29:38,851
Ian: Again, a campaign about
what is really happening, I

731
00:29:38,851 --> 00:29:40,291
don't think would worry anyone.

732
00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:40,996
Andy: Yeah.

733
00:29:41,011 --> 00:29:41,071
Ian: Yeah.

734
00:29:41,071 --> 00:29:46,231
There saying We need more policing is on
the whole, very popular with all parties

735
00:29:46,231 --> 00:29:48,271
and nearly all demographics at all time.

736
00:29:49,231 --> 00:29:50,431
so that's not a problem.

737
00:29:50,491 --> 00:29:55,914
It's just this exaggerated and hysterical
view of what's happening in the capitol

738
00:29:55,914 --> 00:29:57,419
that I think is completely unhelpful.

739
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,579
Andy: the biggest, flub in the 2024
conservative campaign that, that

740
00:30:01,579 --> 00:30:04,759
Susan Hall was running, was that they
produced these very scary black and

741
00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:09,878
white videos of, hellhole London,
one of which turned out to be from

742
00:30:09,878 --> 00:30:11,858
Pennsylvania station in, in New York.

743
00:30:12,638 --> 00:30:16,958
it was a, perfect example of,
you've, you're trying to say this

744
00:30:16,958 --> 00:30:21,038
is, like Gotham City, and it's
not, it's got plenty of problems.

745
00:30:21,038 --> 00:30:22,328
It's got plenty of political problems.

746
00:30:22,328 --> 00:30:24,728
It's got plenty of problems with
housing and with affordability

747
00:30:24,728 --> 00:30:25,598
and with lots of crime.

748
00:30:25,778 --> 00:30:26,678
knife crime, Yeah.

749
00:30:27,248 --> 00:30:28,268
Is, pretty high.

750
00:30:28,418 --> 00:30:28,568
Yeah.

751
00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:29,858
But as you say,

752
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:33,520
Ian: reform, then always links,
levels of crime with immigration.

753
00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:38,230
and suggests that no one has noticed
that there are any problems in a capital

754
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:40,720
city with, large amounts of immigration.

755
00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:45,520
And, always suggests that the, press
in particular never covers anything.

756
00:30:45,922 --> 00:30:50,032
and sure our law is going on under
the radar totally undetected.

757
00:30:50,692 --> 00:30:56,567
on the whole, a story for example, like
the, fun run where, in Tower Hamlets where

758
00:30:56,747 --> 00:30:59,599
the, adult women weren't allowed to run.

759
00:30:59,869 --> 00:31:01,159
It was a fun run for everyone.

760
00:31:01,159 --> 00:31:02,749
And there was a cutoff age for girls.

761
00:31:03,679 --> 00:31:05,089
we ran this story in the eye.

762
00:31:06,019 --> 00:31:09,289
and, it was picked up by nearly everybody.

763
00:31:09,499 --> 00:31:12,919
And then the mosque had to, do a u-turn.

764
00:31:13,819 --> 00:31:16,129
girls are now allowed to run at every age.

765
00:31:16,249 --> 00:31:20,899
These things are not being ignored,
except by the people who don't want to see

766
00:31:20,899 --> 00:31:22,519
them and say, no one covers any of this.

767
00:31:22,999 --> 00:31:25,759
there are things that
happen and they are covered.

768
00:31:25,956 --> 00:31:27,696
Andy: we've covered a few
times on this podcast.

769
00:31:27,696 --> 00:31:31,776
The question of does it matter what
reality is when there are very effective

770
00:31:31,776 --> 00:31:34,416
messages being, portrayed and promulgated?

771
00:31:34,446 --> 00:31:34,806
So

772
00:31:34,926 --> 00:31:36,276
the Next,

773
00:31:37,056 --> 00:31:37,386
fine.

774
00:31:38,196 --> 00:31:44,766
51% of adults think that, violent crime
overall, is going up, which is not 7% of

775
00:31:44,766 --> 00:31:46,056
people think it's falling, which it is.

776
00:31:46,309 --> 00:31:48,619
Helen: I think it really matters because
when I looked at that poll and it

777
00:31:48,619 --> 00:31:52,429
was, 2024 reform voters were the most
likely to say London wasn't unsafe.

778
00:31:52,699 --> 00:31:55,789
I thought if you think about that
demographically, that is older people

779
00:31:56,029 --> 00:31:58,909
who are now, some of them presumably
frightened to leave their houses

780
00:31:58,909 --> 00:32:01,339
if they live in London or they were
thinking about coming to London to

781
00:32:01,339 --> 00:32:05,419
the theater and people should have a
realistic understanding of, yes, London

782
00:32:05,419 --> 00:32:08,539
does have, yes, you might find people
smoking a joint on the tube with you.

783
00:32:08,539 --> 00:32:11,509
You might find people like, as
you say, phone thefts, watch

784
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:12,499
thefts, whatever it might be.

785
00:32:12,499 --> 00:32:15,319
There are petty crimes and stuff
like that, but this is not the

786
00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:19,249
south side of Chicago and it should
be okay to say so without people

787
00:32:19,549 --> 00:32:20,839
going, oh, you liberal elite.

788
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:22,159
Don't wanna hear any about it.

789
00:32:22,345 --> 00:32:22,855
Andy: I'm really sorry.

790
00:32:22,855 --> 00:32:26,065
You've just reminded me of one crime that
we didn't read out the stats on, which is

791
00:32:26,065 --> 00:32:30,025
racist incidents at Dulwich College, which
are down massively since late seventies.

792
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:32,350
Ian: did you

793
00:32:32,350 --> 00:32:37,371
notice that Mr. Zaha was asked
about,  Nigel Farage's record,

794
00:32:37,541 --> 00:32:39,564
of antisemitism at dage.

795
00:32:39,744 --> 00:32:44,424
And he said, if you think for a minute
that I would be here if I thought

796
00:32:44,424 --> 00:32:49,254
Nigel had anything against people of my
color, you're thinking no, it wasn't.

797
00:32:49,254 --> 00:32:50,334
It was the Jews, wasn't it?

798
00:32:51,084 --> 00:32:52,404
can we bring them up here?

799
00:32:52,734 --> 00:32:54,264
this isn't what we were on about.

800
00:32:54,654 --> 00:32:57,804
Andy: but it also doesn't take very long
to unearth an article that, Nadim Zahar

801
00:32:57,804 --> 00:33:01,384
wrote in 2015 for conservative homes
taking a very, strong line on that then.

802
00:33:01,434 --> 00:33:04,584
His exact words on that Farage
was proposing, ending race

803
00:33:04,584 --> 00:33:07,884
discrimination laws as Harvey's
exact words were Bels would be proud.

804
00:33:08,244 --> 00:33:08,664
Which,

805
00:33:08,724 --> 00:33:08,844
and

806
00:33:08,874 --> 00:33:09,864
Helen: that's a good thing.

807
00:33:09,984 --> 00:33:10,254
Understand.

808
00:33:10,254 --> 00:33:11,124
You ought to be proud.

809
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:12,439
Andy: Well

810
00:33:12,504 --> 00:33:12,804
Helen: done.

811
00:33:15,863 --> 00:33:16,283
Andy: Okay.

812
00:33:16,283 --> 00:33:19,853
we now come to section number
three and Adam, it's over to you.

813
00:33:19,883 --> 00:33:23,693
I gather we're going to get an
exciting visitor from America

814
00:33:23,693 --> 00:33:24,823
in in the next few days.

815
00:33:24,883 --> 00:33:27,398
We, ah, all the excitement in the moment
seems to be where the Meghan is gonna

816
00:33:27,398 --> 00:33:31,088
come over in the summer, but, we do
know we are gonna get the other half.

817
00:33:31,088 --> 00:33:33,578
Prince Harry is, very
likely to rock up in London.

818
00:33:33,968 --> 00:33:38,498
I'm told he's enormously looking forward
to, fronting down the, daily mail for it.

819
00:33:38,498 --> 00:33:42,368
Is they in court, over this long
running case he's had against

820
00:33:42,368 --> 00:33:46,058
them for all sorts of unlawful
activities, which he alleges went on.

821
00:33:46,373 --> 00:33:53,308
Now I have become totally, lost with
the story of Prince Harry suing He's,

822
00:33:53,308 --> 00:33:55,506
yeah, it is Prince Harry versus
the world, It's the case that

823
00:33:55,506 --> 00:34:00,846
was announced in a flurry of, of,
publicity back in October, 2022.

824
00:34:01,236 --> 00:34:05,166
and he's bringing it along with, a
host of other, o other Sebs, so Liz

825
00:34:05,166 --> 00:34:06,756
Hurley, Elton John, and David Furnish.

826
00:34:07,026 --> 00:34:10,026
Simon Hughes, the former Lib Dem,
mp that's probably stretching

827
00:34:10,081 --> 00:34:10,191
Helen: the

828
00:34:10,196 --> 00:34:11,156
definit, I was gonna say, they got

829
00:34:11,181 --> 00:34:12,711
a lot less glamorous very quickly.

830
00:34:13,041 --> 00:34:13,391
Andy: Sadie

831
00:34:13,391 --> 00:34:13,631
Frost.

832
00:34:13,891 --> 00:34:14,111
Hi.

833
00:34:14,111 --> 00:34:14,431
great

834
00:34:14,431 --> 00:34:14,671
kind.

835
00:34:14,671 --> 00:34:15,511
Brett Pop, film Star.

836
00:34:15,611 --> 00:34:17,255
And, Baroness Lawrence as well.

837
00:34:17,525 --> 00:34:21,981
who is the mother of murdered teenager,
Steven Lawrence, all of whom are

838
00:34:21,981 --> 00:34:26,221
alleging that, specifically private
investigators working on behalf

839
00:34:26,251 --> 00:34:27,931
of the male and male on Sunday.

840
00:34:28,426 --> 00:34:32,956
Many years ago, used unlawful,
methods to get information,

841
00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:35,266
private information on them, and
published stories as a result of it.

842
00:34:36,145 --> 00:34:36,565
Okay.

843
00:34:36,955 --> 00:34:39,625
Now, at that point they were talking
about all sorts of unlawful activities.

844
00:34:39,625 --> 00:34:40,885
We moved on from phone hacking.

845
00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:43,495
Phone hacking was the first
stage of all this kind of stuff.

846
00:34:43,495 --> 00:34:45,025
And the levers and
inquiry came outta that.

847
00:34:45,415 --> 00:34:49,975
Now it's, it's moved on to, what
was alleged, and is very hotly

848
00:34:49,975 --> 00:34:53,665
denied by everyone at the mail, was
abhorrent criminal activity in the

849
00:34:53,665 --> 00:34:55,825
words of, of, the first legal claim.

850
00:34:56,425 --> 00:34:58,345
they alleged that,
premises had been bugged.

851
00:34:58,345 --> 00:35:00,025
I think cars had been bugged as well.

852
00:35:00,025 --> 00:35:04,735
Live phone calls had been recorded, and
even burglaries undertaken to order.

853
00:35:05,255 --> 00:35:05,495
Yeah.

854
00:35:05,495 --> 00:35:06,335
No's spectacular, isn't it?

855
00:35:06,335 --> 00:35:06,515
Yeah.

856
00:35:06,607 --> 00:35:07,655
That's not part of the case anymore.

857
00:35:07,745 --> 00:35:08,914
That one's fallen away.

858
00:35:08,914 --> 00:35:12,694
Helen: tell me if I'm wrong, the Prince
Harry legal strategy is throw everything

859
00:35:12,694 --> 00:35:14,184
against the wall and see what sticks.

860
00:35:14,509 --> 00:35:15,979
Andy: It does really appear to be that.

861
00:35:15,979 --> 00:35:19,669
And the, the judge who, has, been
appointed to deal with this and has been

862
00:35:19,669 --> 00:35:22,309
doing so over an awful lot of, pretrial
hearings over the last couple of years.

863
00:35:22,309 --> 00:35:25,819
Mr. Justice Nicklin has been very
insistent throughout that he's not

864
00:35:25,819 --> 00:35:28,399
going to allow this to turn into
another Levison inquiry, just sort

865
00:35:28,399 --> 00:35:31,879
a wide ranging inquiry into possible
wrongdoing by the entire press.

866
00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:36,409
He wants it absolutely honed in on
specifics and very provable things.

867
00:35:36,799 --> 00:35:40,309
and in this, they're lucky 'cause
they've got some of the private

868
00:35:40,309 --> 00:35:45,379
investigators, who were working for
the, Daily Mail at the time on board.

869
00:35:45,777 --> 00:35:47,667
so Case looked pretty strong.

870
00:35:47,697 --> 00:35:52,467
It slightly started to come apart
along the way because it turns out

871
00:35:52,467 --> 00:35:55,317
that those private investigators mostly
have convictions for all sorts of

872
00:35:55,317 --> 00:35:56,847
other things, largely phone hacking.

873
00:35:56,847 --> 00:36:00,177
So Glen is one of them, who
was the original man who stood

874
00:36:00,177 --> 00:36:01,407
trial twice for phone hacking.

875
00:36:01,407 --> 00:36:04,317
He first time around at the news of the
world, and second time he was in the

876
00:36:04,317 --> 00:36:08,187
dock alongside Andy Corson and, Rebecca
Brooks, who was innocent of everything.

877
00:36:09,657 --> 00:36:11,877
they've got some other ones in there
as well, some really charming people.

878
00:36:11,877 --> 00:36:14,577
Greg Miscue, who was another one who
was jailed over the news of the world

879
00:36:14,577 --> 00:36:17,967
and has since died, but left some
pretty spectacular testimony in forms

880
00:36:17,967 --> 00:36:19,167
of witness statements behind him.

881
00:36:19,527 --> 00:36:22,947
Jonathan Reese, who has been to
prison, not phone hacking, just

882
00:36:22,947 --> 00:36:26,697
to make the change for planting
drugs on, a woman, he was in whose.

883
00:36:27,267 --> 00:36:31,137
Husband had employed him to discredit
her during a divorce proceedings.

884
00:36:31,906 --> 00:36:35,416
Gavin Burrows, who problematically has
given contradictory witness statements to

885
00:36:35,416 --> 00:36:37,996
both sides, in or to Prince Harry's side.

886
00:36:37,996 --> 00:36:41,596
He said that he had undertaken lots of
unlawful activities on behalf of the

887
00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:44,476
male titles, and for the male titles.

888
00:36:44,476 --> 00:36:45,916
He said that he absolutely
hadn't done that.

889
00:36:45,939 --> 00:36:49,456
Not only that, but that the, witness
statement saying he had was a forgery

890
00:36:49,456 --> 00:36:50,956
and the signature on it wasn't his.

891
00:36:50,971 --> 00:36:51,511
He's good.

892
00:36:51,511 --> 00:36:52,171
I like him.

893
00:36:52,254 --> 00:36:54,054
The other person who they've got
a witness statement from, which is

894
00:36:54,054 --> 00:36:58,434
apparently gonna be presented at trial
is, Christine Joanna Hart, who, now

895
00:36:58,434 --> 00:37:02,274
claims that she was the psychic medium
to News International over several years.

896
00:37:02,574 --> 00:37:03,864
She's now practicing Shaman.

897
00:37:04,284 --> 00:37:07,641
She says she never hacked phones, what
she did was she opened the Stargates,

898
00:37:07,821 --> 00:37:11,841
she spoke to the Nordics and read
from the codes embedded in blood, to

899
00:37:12,081 --> 00:37:15,681
reveal how Fleet Street used her to
uncover extraterrestrial influence

900
00:37:15,681 --> 00:37:18,951
between murder and media and how
powerful forces, celebrity royalty

901
00:37:18,951 --> 00:37:20,541
and Empire moved to silence her.

902
00:37:21,051 --> 00:37:22,341
So they put her in the witness box.

903
00:37:22,731 --> 00:37:23,661
That's gonna be quite a fun day

904
00:37:23,661 --> 00:37:24,801
Helen: She sounds terrific.

905
00:37:24,831 --> 00:37:24,981
Andy: one.

906
00:37:25,071 --> 00:37:25,111
She

907
00:37:25,161 --> 00:37:26,331
Helen: have a horoscope column.

908
00:37:26,331 --> 00:37:27,171
Andy: She's pretty fab.

909
00:37:27,201 --> 00:37:27,711
think she's at The

910
00:37:27,711 --> 00:37:28,461
Economist now.

911
00:37:28,521 --> 00:37:28,641
I

912
00:37:28,816 --> 00:37:29,041
Ian: I think

913
00:37:30,501 --> 00:37:32,211
Andy: So those are the people
who are providing witness

914
00:37:32,211 --> 00:37:34,821
statements for Harry's side.

915
00:37:35,196 --> 00:37:39,216
have at various points, in yes, whether
or not those will actually be presented

916
00:37:39,216 --> 00:37:40,221
in court, but they have come up at

917
00:37:40,311 --> 00:37:43,401
but there's a mosaic coming
in from them of support.

918
00:37:43,476 --> 00:37:43,926
Helen: Okay.

919
00:37:44,076 --> 00:37:46,776
and how Adam, have these people
been recruited when they were

920
00:37:46,776 --> 00:37:47,886
previously on the other side?

921
00:37:47,886 --> 00:37:51,006
They were very much the poachers and now
become the kind of gamekeepers on Harry's

922
00:37:51,006 --> 00:37:51,156
Andy: side?

923
00:37:51,246 --> 00:37:53,886
obviously they're all enormously
repentant now and think that everything

924
00:37:53,886 --> 00:37:56,016
is, everything they did before was
absolutely terrible in acting out

925
00:37:56,016 --> 00:37:57,156
with the goodness of their own heart.

926
00:37:57,456 --> 00:38:00,336
But also quite a lot of them have
received quite a bit of money.

927
00:38:01,296 --> 00:38:04,176
they were recruited by a chap called
Graham Johnson, who is currently

928
00:38:04,176 --> 00:38:09,276
working alongside, Dr. Evan Harris,
former director of hack off as a

929
00:38:09,276 --> 00:38:11,736
paralegal on this particular case.

930
00:38:12,447 --> 00:38:15,576
But prior to that, the two of them
were working together in exposing

931
00:38:15,576 --> 00:38:21,426
lots and lots of, bad behavior by the
press via, a website called, byline.

932
00:38:21,486 --> 00:38:22,416
Byline Investigates.

933
00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:24,516
In fact, slightly it's a sister two.

934
00:38:25,101 --> 00:38:26,841
The byline newspaper, which comes out,

935
00:38:27,176 --> 00:38:28,131
by times, byline

936
00:38:28,131 --> 00:38:28,491
times.

937
00:38:28,491 --> 00:38:31,041
Yeah, it's associated with that,
but it's not exactly the same thing.

938
00:38:31,431 --> 00:38:34,911
he's also got a website called Expose
Media, and a publishing company

939
00:38:34,911 --> 00:38:38,901
called Yellow Press, which has been
splashing around advances for these

940
00:38:38,901 --> 00:38:40,311
people to write their memoirs.

941
00:38:41,061 --> 00:38:45,951
quite big advances actually in terms of,
GA Burrow said he got 25 grand for an

942
00:38:45,951 --> 00:38:49,131
advance, which is a lot of money to be
getting in terms of advance, certainly

943
00:38:49,131 --> 00:38:50,601
from a very small publishing house.

944
00:38:51,231 --> 00:38:52,611
and there's a slight mystery as to where

945
00:38:52,701 --> 00:38:52,821
the

946
00:38:52,821 --> 00:38:54,476
Helen: was gonna say behind from.

947
00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:57,621
whos does the come
funding come for, all of

948
00:38:57,766 --> 00:38:58,056
Andy: Well,

949
00:38:58,311 --> 00:38:58,461
Ian: is

950
00:38:58,466 --> 00:39:01,551
it a benefactor who doesn't
mind how many copies are sold as

951
00:39:01,551 --> 00:39:02,901
long as the truth is out there?

952
00:39:03,471 --> 00:39:03,921
Adam: These

953
00:39:03,926 --> 00:39:04,136
are

954
00:39:04,136 --> 00:39:07,611
the sort of questions which the male
group have been trying to establish

955
00:39:07,611 --> 00:39:10,521
in these pretrial hearings and will
certainly be trying to establish at trial,

956
00:39:10,583 --> 00:39:14,663
Andy: Are you allowed to pay people
who are giving you witness statements?

957
00:39:14,847 --> 00:39:17,671
the argument would be that it wasn't
directly for the witness statements.

958
00:39:17,971 --> 00:39:20,721
You just happened to have paid this
person for their autobiography Feels run

959
00:39:20,786 --> 00:39:20,976
Ian: that

960
00:39:20,976 --> 00:39:22,506
would be up to the judge to decide.

961
00:39:23,526 --> 00:39:24,846
we certainly wouldn't have a view

962
00:39:25,101 --> 00:39:25,401
Andy: no

963
00:39:25,401 --> 00:39:25,581
on

964
00:39:26,186 --> 00:39:28,316
And and this is judge trial,
not it's a judge trial.

965
00:39:28,316 --> 00:39:28,466
No.

966
00:39:28,466 --> 00:39:29,156
No jury involved.

967
00:39:29,606 --> 00:39:29,616
no,

968
00:39:29,616 --> 00:39:34,811
Adam: Harry's side, I have to
say, have been less than happy

969
00:39:34,811 --> 00:39:38,531
about opening up their books to
show what was going on with that.

970
00:39:38,531 --> 00:39:41,281
So  there's a process ahead of trial
called disclosure where each side has

971
00:39:41,371 --> 00:39:44,840
to, volunteer up, evidence sort of
emails and paperwork and that kind

972
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:44,990
Ian: thing.

973
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:45,080
You're

974
00:39:45,110 --> 00:39:46,010
Andy: that's been going on for a long

975
00:39:46,010 --> 00:39:46,340
time.

976
00:39:46,345 --> 00:39:46,415
Time.

977
00:39:46,430 --> 00:39:46,940
Ian: never done

978
00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:47,090
this.

979
00:39:47,330 --> 00:39:47,810
Andy: I know you have.

980
00:39:48,740 --> 00:39:48,840
I'm

981
00:39:48,860 --> 00:39:52,340
explaining this one, this one,
for the listeners rather than

982
00:39:52,610 --> 00:39:54,200
those quite experienced in it.

983
00:39:55,010 --> 00:39:58,970
one of the arguments late last year
in court was whether, Evan Harris and

984
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,630
Graham Johnson should have to, hand
over all of their kind of paperwork

985
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:05,240
and evidence from before they were
actually brought in as paralegals to

986
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,870
work on this particular case, which is
relevant because as I say, they were

987
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:11,780
working together to bring this stuff onto
this website and expose these stories.

988
00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:17,450
And these stories appearing on byline
investigates are being used as the.

989
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,250
Watershed moment is the phrase that's
getting used in court that various

990
00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:25,240
litigants realize that they might
have claim against the mail on Sunday.

991
00:40:26,740 --> 00:40:30,250
That's relevant because there's a
statute of limitations of six years

992
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:33,831
we're talking, about events, which largely
went on right back into the noughties,

993
00:40:33,831 --> 00:40:37,731
possibly even back as far as the nineties
Now, that's not a very attractive argument

994
00:40:37,731 --> 00:40:40,611
by the Daily Mail to say, you should
have known we were doing unlawful stuff

995
00:40:40,611 --> 00:40:41,541
before and you should have sued us.

996
00:40:41,541 --> 00:40:46,101
Given particularly that Paul Daker,
who was the, big cheese at the Daily

997
00:40:46,101 --> 00:40:49,421
Mail denied very, strongly and has
continued to all the way through.

998
00:40:49,706 --> 00:40:51,806
Any unlawful activity ever undertaken.

999
00:40:51,856 --> 00:40:55,516
I should say, of course, de and
everyone at the mail continue to, deny

1000
00:40:55,516 --> 00:40:56,626
this in the strongest possible terms.

1001
00:40:56,626 --> 00:41:01,216
They say that all of these claims are
not only lurid, but preposterous 'cause

1002
00:41:01,216 --> 00:41:03,016
they know how to give a a, denial.

1003
00:41:03,116 --> 00:41:07,046
And they, I think too are feeling
quite confident in this, so confident

1004
00:41:07,046 --> 00:41:10,106
in fact that they very unusually,
in a case like this, and again,

1005
00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:11,276
you, will back me up on this.

1006
00:41:11,336 --> 00:41:17,664
And they had a, costs hearing, pretrial,
in order to really hammer it home to

1007
00:41:17,664 --> 00:41:21,408
the various litigants in this, quite
how much they stand to lose if they

1008
00:41:21,408 --> 00:41:22,848
are not successful in this case.

1009
00:41:22,938 --> 00:41:26,808
'cause obviously Prince Harry, Elton,
John, David furnish quite deep pockets.

1010
00:41:27,198 --> 00:41:31,130
Possibly Sadie Frost bit more concerned
about the mortgage and things.

1011
00:41:31,970 --> 00:41:35,030
and it was pointed out to them
that if parts of the litigation

1012
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:36,260
succeed, but others fail,

1013
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:37,340
those

1014
00:41:37,340 --> 00:41:40,250
who fail become liable for
an enormous number of costs.

1015
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:43,490
So when we're talking in, in, in
the, estimate is that both sides

1016
00:41:43,490 --> 00:41:44,945
have spent at least 40 million Do

1017
00:41:44,945 --> 00:41:45,400
you mean so far?

1018
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,045
Do mean all the, Do you mean

1019
00:41:47,045 --> 00:41:52,791
all the costs could end up being heaped on
say just Simon Yeah, Or not all the costs,

1020
00:41:52,791 --> 00:41:57,921
but an in an, in the costs pertaining
to his part of the, The litigation.

1021
00:41:58,013 --> 00:41:59,350
So this is high risk

1022
00:41:59,362 --> 00:42:05,452
Ian: You have, made the point right the
way through this, that going together as

1023
00:42:05,452 --> 00:42:09,832
a group with Prince Harry as your leader
may not have been the best strategy.

1024
00:42:10,372 --> 00:42:12,682
Were you Stephen Lawrence's mother?

1025
00:42:13,612 --> 00:42:15,622
You might have thought
you'd do better on your own.

1026
00:42:15,934 --> 00:42:17,134
Adam: it's a possibility, isn't it?

1027
00:42:17,524 --> 00:42:17,734
yeah.

1028
00:42:18,664 --> 00:42:22,174
Prince Harry essentially thinks that
anything written about him anywhere,

1029
00:42:22,174 --> 00:42:23,764
in any newspaper ever is a crime.

1030
00:42:24,134 --> 00:42:28,364
And also he's very little idea, I
think, of, of the value of money either.

1031
00:42:28,664 --> 00:42:31,394
probably 40 million to him doesn't
seem like an enormous amount of money.

1032
00:42:31,394 --> 00:42:34,574
So he's not necessarily the person
you want to have driving your

1033
00:42:34,574 --> 00:42:35,534
case, unless there be any doubt.

1034
00:42:35,564 --> 00:42:37,304
This absolutely is being
driven by Prince Harry.

1035
00:42:37,484 --> 00:42:41,114
one of my favorite details of this is that
Prince Harry, his watershed moment, as

1036
00:42:41,114 --> 00:42:44,804
we discussed before when he realized he
might have a case, was when he met David

1037
00:42:44,804 --> 00:42:48,544
Sherborne, who is the,  barrister who
was in charge of, was fought awful lot

1038
00:42:48,557 --> 00:42:52,114
of these cases and a lot of the mirror
ones and, use the world ones as well.

1039
00:42:52,608 --> 00:42:55,368
bit of a schmoozer, bit of a
smoothie chops best where Harry

1040
00:42:55,368 --> 00:42:59,208
bumped into him on holiday at
Elton and David's house in France.

1041
00:43:01,038 --> 00:43:05,328
And Harry rather wonderfully was then
given the job of phoning up, or messaging,

1042
00:43:05,328 --> 00:43:09,633
I think WhatsApping, possibly Baroness
Lawrence, because, break the news to a

1043
00:43:09,633 --> 00:43:10,623
Baroness that you might have a claim.

1044
00:43:10,623 --> 00:43:11,523
You need a Prince for that.

1045
00:43:11,523 --> 00:43:13,568
Obviously that's the way that one works.

1046
00:43:14,298 --> 00:43:15,828
It would just, I just
get scammed from that.

1047
00:43:15,828 --> 00:43:19,488
If I got a text from an unknown number
saying it's Prince Harry here, and you

1048
00:43:19,488 --> 00:43:23,988
could be in line for millions of pounds,
but come on, this is the Nigerian Prince

1049
00:43:23,988 --> 00:43:24,708
Andy: thing, but it's the

1050
00:43:24,778 --> 00:43:25,058
Helen: yeah,

1051
00:43:25,058 --> 00:43:25,068
yeah,

1052
00:43:25,653 --> 00:43:25,943
Andy: yeah.

1053
00:43:26,883 --> 00:43:29,073
Helen: Andy doesn't wanna hear any
of this because he's a huge fan

1054
00:43:29,073 --> 00:43:30,543
of Meghan and her cookery program.

1055
00:43:30,633 --> 00:43:33,273
This is all very painful that the
idea that she might lose, she maybe

1056
00:43:33,273 --> 00:43:34,833
should have to, Hey, a
minute, maybe she should keep

1057
00:43:34,833 --> 00:43:35,043
this

1058
00:43:35,043 --> 00:43:35,193
off

1059
00:43:35,193 --> 00:43:35,253
air.

1060
00:43:35,883 --> 00:43:38,493
Maybe she'll have to make
more, more with love.

1061
00:43:38,493 --> 00:43:41,223
Meghan, if she's not got an any
money as a result of losing this,

1062
00:43:41,223 --> 00:43:43,833
you're gonna get all the jam
recipes your heart could desire.

1063
00:43:44,343 --> 00:43:45,123
Andy: Let's move on.

1064
00:43:45,724 --> 00:43:48,814
one of the other slightly dubious
things about it is that, as we were

1065
00:43:48,814 --> 00:43:51,574
saying about the, watershed moment
thing and the statute of limitations,

1066
00:43:51,574 --> 00:43:55,054
there are emails as well between,
Evan Harris and Simon Hughes.

1067
00:43:55,474 --> 00:44:01,264
Both former, lib MMPs discussing,
the male business, back in 2016.

1068
00:44:01,534 --> 00:44:04,834
And, EB Harris saying, I will
bring, I proposed to bring along my

1069
00:44:04,834 --> 00:44:07,654
investigative journalist was how he's,
he was describing it, which is Johnson

1070
00:44:07,654 --> 00:44:08,704
at that point to discuss things.

1071
00:44:08,914 --> 00:44:11,586
But then the claim is that Simon Hugs had
no idea or any of this might have been

1072
00:44:11,586 --> 00:44:13,566
going on until he read it in, byline News.

1073
00:44:14,106 --> 00:44:16,266
Two years, no, three years,
nearly three years after that.

1074
00:44:16,416 --> 00:44:20,316
well within statute limitations in
2019, again, slightly awkwardly, there's

1075
00:44:20,316 --> 00:44:24,966
also a load of emails of the draft,
copies of the articles that Byline

1076
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:28,776
was going to, was going to publish,
being sent to him for his approval

1077
00:44:29,496 --> 00:44:29,706
and

1078
00:44:29,706 --> 00:44:29,916
being

1079
00:44:29,946 --> 00:44:32,436
delayed for six months because he
just started a new job and didn't

1080
00:44:32,436 --> 00:44:33,696
want the publicity at that point.

1081
00:44:34,056 --> 00:44:38,826
and rather wonderfully, Evan Harris, ghost
writing, Sadie Frost's outraged reaction

1082
00:44:38,826 --> 00:44:44,076
to this news to her that, that, she might
have been the victim of unlawful activity.

1083
00:44:44,076 --> 00:44:47,571
So there's an awful lot of kind of juicy
stuff that's come out already and will

1084
00:44:47,571 --> 00:44:51,306
be discussed at great length at the Royal
Courts of Justice in the weeks to come.

1085
00:44:51,621 --> 00:44:56,541
Ian: And when we get into court,
as it were, possibly physically in

1086
00:44:56,541 --> 00:44:59,421
your case, who are we rooting for?

1087
00:44:59,421 --> 00:44:59,841
Adam?

1088
00:44:59,886 --> 00:45:00,071
Yeah.

1089
00:45:00,171 --> 00:45:01,131
Helen: It's a tough one, isn't it?

1090
00:45:01,494 --> 00:45:03,556
Andy: it's like when fire
sued the Hamiltons, isn't it?

1091
00:45:03,706 --> 00:45:03,886
Ian: Yeah.

1092
00:45:03,886 --> 00:45:04,516
No way around.

1093
00:45:05,446 --> 00:45:05,776
No, I

1094
00:45:05,776 --> 00:45:08,536
was in court and I was
reading for them both to

1095
00:45:08,536 --> 00:45:09,016
lose.

1096
00:45:09,166 --> 00:45:09,346
Yes.

1097
00:45:09,436 --> 00:45:09,796
Yeah.

1098
00:45:09,826 --> 00:45:11,776
Which in a sense they both
did and it was marvelous.

1099
00:45:11,866 --> 00:45:13,336
But is this similar?

1100
00:45:13,936 --> 00:45:18,286
the trouble about having Doreen
Lawrence there and some of those people

1101
00:45:18,316 --> 00:45:20,456
as you think they might have a case,

1102
00:45:20,911 --> 00:45:22,081
Andy: It's really hard to say.

1103
00:45:22,381 --> 00:45:24,661
until the full trial comes up and
we see exactly what evidence they've

1104
00:45:24,661 --> 00:45:26,431
got, it's gonna be very, hard to see.

1105
00:45:27,121 --> 00:45:30,331
if Doreen Lawrence has been
dragged into this and it turns

1106
00:45:30,331 --> 00:45:31,531
out not to be anything, that's

1107
00:45:33,031 --> 00:45:33,391
Ian: poor iv,

1108
00:45:33,826 --> 00:45:37,276
Helen: I'm very surprised because I would
say, for people I know I worked at the

1109
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:39,016
Daily Mail office several years, and
one of the things that Paul Daker was

1110
00:45:39,016 --> 00:45:40,786
most proud of was his involvement in the

1111
00:45:41,041 --> 00:45:41,296
Andy: Lawrence.

1112
00:45:41,296 --> 00:45:41,416
Yeah.

1113
00:45:41,446 --> 00:45:43,966
We should say, we haven't covered
that, that really hits to the heart

1114
00:45:43,966 --> 00:45:45,496
of the daily male under Paul Daker.

1115
00:45:45,766 --> 00:45:49,426
quite rightly, he was enormously proud
of that murderer's front page and

1116
00:45:49,426 --> 00:45:52,846
the fact that he named and shamed the
suspects in the, the Lawrence murder.

1117
00:45:52,929 --> 00:45:55,484
of whom I think have now got, have
since gone to prison's, been convicted

1118
00:45:55,484 --> 00:45:55,574
and

1119
00:45:55,574 --> 00:45:55,694
gone

1120
00:45:55,749 --> 00:45:55,759
Helen: Yeah.

1121
00:45:55,759 --> 00:45:57,434
Big front page five pictures of murderers.

1122
00:45:57,464 --> 00:45:59,294
And he had it hanging in his
office for the entire time.

1123
00:45:59,414 --> 00:46:01,814
this was a time he took a big call
in which he could have been sent

1124
00:46:01,814 --> 00:46:04,154
to prison for over a racist murder.

1125
00:46:04,514 --> 00:46:06,314
And so I think that's the one that I'm,

1126
00:46:06,511 --> 00:46:06,704
Andy: surprised

1127
00:46:07,574 --> 00:46:07,724
to again, That's the

1128
00:46:07,724 --> 00:46:08,444
one that elevates it.

1129
00:46:08,444 --> 00:46:11,384
I, have to say as well, this does
go rather wider than the mail

1130
00:46:11,384 --> 00:46:16,004
because, a lot of other, a lot of
journalists are, named in the, the

1131
00:46:16,004 --> 00:46:19,334
litigation so far who have gone on
to very senior jobs at other papers.

1132
00:46:19,334 --> 00:46:19,694
In fact.

1133
00:46:20,566 --> 00:46:23,519
For serving current
national newspaper editors.

1134
00:46:23,759 --> 00:46:26,339
so we've got Tony Gallagher,
who was a news editor at the,

1135
00:46:26,609 --> 00:46:28,709
of the mail at the time and has
now gone on to edit the Times.

1136
00:46:29,159 --> 00:46:32,399
Ben Taylor at Sunday Times, Victoria
Newton, who was a showbiz reporter on the

1137
00:46:32,399 --> 00:46:34,619
mail at the time, now editing the Sun.

1138
00:46:34,619 --> 00:46:37,889
And David Dillon, who has stayed but
is editing the, the mail on Sunday

1139
00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:42,209
under Ted Verity, the, the current
editor of, of both male titles there.

1140
00:46:42,508 --> 00:46:45,148
it's ancient history in some ways,
but there's a lot of the players

1141
00:46:45,148 --> 00:46:46,378
in it still very much around.

1142
00:46:46,758 --> 00:46:48,858
That's it for this episode of page 94.

1143
00:46:48,858 --> 00:46:49,998
Thank you so much for listening.

1144
00:46:49,998 --> 00:46:54,673
If you would like to find out the latest
about the Harry trial, the more on ice,

1145
00:46:54,673 --> 00:46:58,149
there'll be more American columns before
Long, just go to your local news agent

1146
00:46:58,419 --> 00:47:03,159
and and walk in and, put down a very
small amount of money on the counter.

1147
00:47:03,309 --> 00:47:05,709
2 99. It's ridiculous.

1148
00:47:05,709 --> 00:47:07,059
I've been meaning to talk
to you about this here.

1149
00:47:07,059 --> 00:47:07,959
It is crazy.

1150
00:47:08,409 --> 00:47:12,159
Ian: we had a letter, last week
from, a reader who wasn't me.

1151
00:47:13,524 --> 00:47:18,504
saying, why is your magazine a so cheap
and why is the subscription so cheap?

1152
00:47:18,954 --> 00:47:19,734
this is ludicrous.

1153
00:47:19,734 --> 00:47:23,334
People are paying three times
this for a pint twice as much

1154
00:47:23,334 --> 00:47:25,944
as this for a, a Cup of coffee.

1155
00:47:26,194 --> 00:47:29,944
this is let letter I can
guarantee will be published.

1156
00:47:30,034 --> 00:47:30,529
Andy: printed it if you'll

1157
00:47:31,294 --> 00:47:31,684
Printed it

1158
00:47:31,684 --> 00:47:32,014
twice,

1159
00:47:32,014 --> 00:47:32,284
I think,

1160
00:47:32,284 --> 00:47:32,554
didn't you?

1161
00:47:32,734 --> 00:47:33,424
Yeah, Anyway, if

1162
00:47:33,574 --> 00:47:33,754
you

1163
00:47:33,759 --> 00:47:33,929
would

1164
00:47:33,929 --> 00:47:34,249
like to

1165
00:47:34,429 --> 00:47:34,929
framed it,

1166
00:47:35,269 --> 00:47:39,724
secure this bargain before things
change, just go to private hyen.co,

1167
00:47:39,724 --> 00:47:41,194
do UK, get yourself a subscription.

1168
00:47:41,254 --> 00:47:43,834
It's a fantastic magazine and
there's so much more inside.

1169
00:47:44,284 --> 00:47:45,514
That's it for the next fortnight.

1170
00:47:45,514 --> 00:47:46,924
We will see you again next time.

1171
00:47:46,924 --> 00:47:48,544
Thank you as ever for listening.

1172
00:47:48,544 --> 00:47:51,334
And thank you to Matt Hill of
Rethink Audio for producing.

1173
00:47:51,424 --> 00:47:51,904
Bye for now.