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Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the I Studio with Helen

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Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

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Today we are asking the most
important question in world politics.

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Who is Andy

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Adam: burnham

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Ian: and what does he

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Helen: want?

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and how can

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Ian: can he be stopped?

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Helen: Maybe

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Adam: Anything I should explain exactly
why we're talking about this now.

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'cause at time of writing, he's
been banned by Keir Starmer and

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Andy and the Labour NEC
from standing as an MP.

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He's currently Mayor of Greater
Manchester, and he would've to resign

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from that post in order to do it.

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Now, I would say we did have a number
crunch in the last issue, which

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was the number of U-turns by Keir
Starmer, until going to press, and

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we did have to change that several
times in the course of the week as

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we were putting the pages together.

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But that's currently the situation.

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So yeah.

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Andy Burnham, mayor of
Greater Manchester...

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i... incredible poll numbers, elected
three times as mayor of Manchester.

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he got 63.4% in 20 17, 67
0.3% in 2021 It's going up.

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It's quite A rarity.

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that The incumbent goes up and then 63.4%
again in May, 2024, last time he stood.

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So you can see why people are thinking,
Ooh, someone who actually the public

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seems to like and who might actually win
some votes might be a good thing for the

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Ian: Labour

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Party.

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Has he been effective?

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Has he done a good job in Manchester?

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Oh, see,

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Adam: I, I tried to work out what
the best measure of this was.

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I looked in the, Private Eye archive.

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He's barely appeared in Rotten Boroughs

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in all of

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his time

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in charge of greater Manchester.

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So I think that does give
you a level of, yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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he's

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been

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Andy: pretty

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good.

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So when this by-election was
announced, he suggested he would

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like to stand for the seat.

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He has been blocked from standing
by the sort of high command

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council, the Jedi Council of the

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Labour

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Adam: Party, That's the one,

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Ian: Yes.

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Andy: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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By, a thumping majority
of about eight to one.

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So as I understand it, their reasoning,
and I know there are other reasons

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apart from what they suggested,
but their reasoning was you've

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just been elected or recently been
elected Mayor of Greater Manchester.

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If we let you stand in this
by-election to become an MP again.

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We'll have to have another
election in Greater Manchester.

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That seems like a bad use of

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Adam: party

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resources.

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And if we know there's one

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thing they're Not keen on,
they don't like having local

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elections if they can possibly

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get

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away.

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with it,

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Andy: But if, he left
the greater Manchester

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Ty,

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they'd

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Ian: probably

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lose

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that.

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Yeah.

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the argument that,

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oh no reform will win
a significant victory.

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Will they win either way,

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don't

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they?

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Yeah, surely, I hate to
sound as though, I think

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Keir Starmer might have been right.

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He's done two years, has he as
mayor, he's got another duty to go.

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one.

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Why not finish the term?

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Why not indicate that Labour's
there for the long term?

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It can stick to what it says it's
gonna do, rather than a man saying,

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oh look, it's a chance for me to

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be

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leader.

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the whole stick of the Labour
party was these terrible Tories.

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They changed their leader
every five minutes.

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Why can't they grow up?

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They all said psychodrama a lot.

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That was written into all Labour speeches,
all to psychodrama, and what have we got?

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We've got a Labour psychodrama.

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with Burnham just turning up.

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I looked at a previous cover.

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we had Andy Burnham saying, I'd like to
lead, the Labour Party in Kiss Thomas

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saying So would give him a chance.

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Yeah, In

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a very, but we, have done this a lot.

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Haven't.

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we?

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Helen: Yeah.

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In a very real sense, Andy Burnham
has been running to be Labour

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leader since at least 2010.

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That was his first crack

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Adam: at

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it,

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right?

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he,

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stood it officially twice.

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Yeah.

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2010 and 2015.

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He

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ran, and lost.

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Helen: Yeah.

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So he lost to Ed Milliband.

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He lost to Jeremy Corbin.

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I remember I went to the first Labour
Party conference after the pandemic that

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won in, that had in person, so 2021.

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I was on a panel about de about
devolution with him and he was late

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because he was being stopped for

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autographs

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and selfies

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Yeah.

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because at the time Ki Arm was in trouble
and he was peacocking around guy and

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going, do you know who else is available?

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Me,

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Adam: Andy

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Burnham.

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Helen: And he'd

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got his little uniforms, he's
got these little polo this little

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Fred Perry polo shirts and stuff.

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And then he did exactly the same
at last year's party conference.

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He gave a big interview to the new
statesman, in which he said, I don't

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really agree with the financial
markets dictating our policy.

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I dunno what that's all about.

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Which spooked

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the

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Adam: market.

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Ian: And

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Andy: then

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Helen: It was quite a deal of,
for all that there are some

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people who really, love him.

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There are also quite a
lot of people who think.

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cool, Give over.

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Can I, what's

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that great line that I always think of,
Mr. Bennett, let the other young ladies

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Andy: have

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a chance

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Adam: to

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Helen: exhibit.

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You have been doing this now for 16 years.

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Adam: Andy.

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I think there is a really strong feeling
in the Labour Party and country now

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that sort of anyone book here would

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be better.

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and it's, there is,

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there's an argument possibly
to be made for that.

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Helen: Maybe

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even a

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Adam: woman,

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Adam,

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Yes.

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Helen: time in

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Adam: something Labour have never
been terribly keen on, have they?

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know?

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No.

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Might be better.

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Ian: Didn't

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Keir have the choice this time of the
newspapers and the media saying, oh,

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you're so pathetic, you're gonna let
him run, or, oh, you're so pathetic.

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You've stopped him.

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Yeah, you are pathetic.

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here.

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Yeah, either way,

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it didn't really matter
which, way he went, did it.

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The narrative is still, you are

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Helen: useless.

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I think the thing it reveals to me, and
this is very nerdy, I'm sorry, is that

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One of the key things if you wanna run the
Labour Party is you've got to have control

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of the National Executive Committee,

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which

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sounds extraordinarily boring,

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but is extraordinary.

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True.

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Corbin never really got a grip on the
party until he had installed Carrie

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Murphy, his choice, to run the party.

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Same thing happened with Stama.

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He had to get his own person
in control before he could.

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'cause then you get a huge amount of
control over, for example, selections,

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Right, So there is the la the way you
are right that LA to have this kind of

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sidal appetite, the way to
win in Labour is just to seize

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control of the bureaucracy and
just hold it in advice like grip

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and thereby see off all your
opponents through grinding

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Ian: procedural

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motions.

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Adam: And that's what Stan has been really

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good at, isn't it?

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yeah.

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It's absolute control of the party And

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yeah.

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Which is it?

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It was what they felt they needed
after the chaos of the Corbin years,

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I But

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uh,

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Ian: yeah.

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Yeah.

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do

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you have a prediction?

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Will this.

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Helen: Work.

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Adam: I don't think he's going to be
allowed to stand this time around.

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he's gonna be, he's the king
across the water, isn't he?

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Whatever happens, it's, he's gonna
go, this, term runs through till 2028.

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We'll probably have got through
several other prime ministers

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by then, weren't we?

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But,

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he clearly is coming
back from another, bar.

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there, there is no pretense about this.

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He's not pret pretending
anything other than that.

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He wants to take over the
leadership of the Labour party.

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He wrote, the, week before he announced he
was standing for the, for the by-election,

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a Piece for the Guardian about, it was
basically his kind of political pot.

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philosophy, which turns out to be

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Manchester

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Yes.

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Which means not taking a coat off

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and going down the hacienda.

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No, it doesn't.

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sorry.

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it,

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he made the point about, and he,
the various things he has done for

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Manchester, he's, they, brought the
bus and tram system back into public

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control, which is a big problem
anywhere outside of London because

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privatization meant that, everything
disconnected and, run for profit.

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Run down completely.

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He's been brilliant on the, the
Hillsborough campaigning on behalf of

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the Hillsborough families and pushing for
the Hillsborough law, which incidentally

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was kissed on Uta number 14, one of
the ones we had to update last week.

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he swerved very cleverly the Corbin
years by standing as a he, he

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did actually serve under Corbin.

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He was first shadow home
secretary under Corbin.

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And then 2017 Parliament to
stand for, Manchester Mayor.

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But ever since then, he's defined
himself against Westminster.

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This is him in a 2019 interview.

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He said, Westminster is a bizarre place
with a deeply dysfunctional atmosphere.

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I don't miss it in the slightest.

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It's just poisonous.

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Now try it

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six

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years

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on

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from

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that.

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And then last, this struck me

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la last

265
00:07:06,292 --> 00:07:07,012
week in The Guardian.

266
00:07:07,192 --> 00:07:10,072
He, kicked off by, by having
a pop reform and saying, oh,

267
00:07:10,222 --> 00:07:11,032
all these Tories coming up.

268
00:07:11,032 --> 00:07:13,492
Some, it's hardly the stuff
of a political insurgency.

269
00:07:13,702 --> 00:07:17,752
Suddenly Britain's newest political force
doesn't look quite so potent or relevant.

270
00:07:17,812 --> 00:07:19,132
Instead, it seems old

271
00:07:19,522 --> 00:07:21,862
Says Cabinet minister in 2007.

272
00:07:21,982 --> 00:07:22,132
So

273
00:07:22,447 --> 00:07:25,102
they're not, neither of
these from Andy Burnham are

274
00:07:25,102 --> 00:07:26,152
brilliant arguments for bringing

275
00:07:26,152 --> 00:07:26,212
him

276
00:07:26,212 --> 00:07:26,362
back.

277
00:07:26,362 --> 00:07:27,642
into Westins for becoming leader.

278
00:07:27,659 --> 00:07:32,009
Ian: I like the fact that he's
named this movement, manism.

279
00:07:32,429 --> 00:07:33,479
as opposed to Burnham,

280
00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:34,109
which is

281
00:07:34,124 --> 00:07:34,424
Adam: what he

282
00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:34,889
Helen: means.

283
00:07:36,089 --> 00:07:37,709
Ian: it's a sort of faux modesty,

284
00:07:37,709 --> 00:07:38,009
Andy: isn't it?

285
00:07:38,321 --> 00:07:40,901
there's surely a lot of advantage
to be made about being anti

286
00:07:40,901 --> 00:07:41,891
Westminster at the moment.

287
00:07:42,101 --> 00:07:44,651
the number of That's
reforms whole pitch as

288
00:07:44,681 --> 00:07:44,891
Adam: well,

289
00:07:44,891 --> 00:07:45,101
isn't

290
00:07:45,101 --> 00:07:45,281
it?

291
00:07:45,281 --> 00:07:45,491
Is

292
00:07:45,491 --> 00:07:46,241
there Absolutely is.

293
00:07:46,241 --> 00:07:48,701
But then it does get difficult
when you get into Westminster.

294
00:07:48,791 --> 00:07:49,031
doesn't

295
00:07:49,031 --> 00:07:49,151
it?

296
00:07:49,151 --> 00:07:49,241
Yes.

297
00:07:50,021 --> 00:07:50,741
one reforms

298
00:07:50,741 --> 00:07:52,841
thing at the moment is saying, we are
no good at it, so we're just gonna get

299
00:07:52,841 --> 00:07:52,931
in

300
00:07:53,141 --> 00:07:53,501
Andy: and loads of

301
00:07:53,501 --> 00:07:53,981
Adam: Torries.

302
00:07:54,161 --> 00:07:54,731
I mean as we write,

303
00:07:54,731 --> 00:07:56,561
So Gravelman has just affected to reform.

304
00:07:56,561 --> 00:07:57,371
She's the latest one.

305
00:07:57,521 --> 00:07:59,351
which Does actually now
mean they've got more.

306
00:07:59,741 --> 00:08:03,131
Reform mps who used to be to mps, than
they've got of their own now, doesn't it?

307
00:08:03,191 --> 00:08:03,551
Ian: Which

308
00:08:03,941 --> 00:08:08,531
And it's now a party full of people
who the electorate rejected, last time,

309
00:08:08,801 --> 00:08:10,481
which again, may not be promising.

310
00:08:10,541 --> 00:08:10,901
And so,

311
00:08:10,901 --> 00:08:13,301
Ella Bra, she hesitated for so long.

312
00:08:13,631 --> 00:08:16,391
I assume she thought that reform
weren't right wing enough and

313
00:08:16,901 --> 00:08:17,141
she's

314
00:08:17,141 --> 00:08:17,831
just waiting.

315
00:08:18,521 --> 00:08:19,301
but now seems

316
00:08:19,331 --> 00:08:19,541
Andy: to be

317
00:08:19,541 --> 00:08:20,081
the moment.

318
00:08:20,261 --> 00:08:20,381
It

319
00:08:20,381 --> 00:08:21,191
is a bit weird.

320
00:08:21,191 --> 00:08:24,131
Recording this podcast, two weeks
after we had a big discussion about

321
00:08:24,131 --> 00:08:28,661
ice, having just killed a civilian
with no justification and Adeem

322
00:08:28,661 --> 00:08:30,311
Zahar, just having defected two

323
00:08:30,341 --> 00:08:30,821
Ian: reform,

324
00:08:31,631 --> 00:08:31,841
Adam: It's

325
00:08:31,841 --> 00:08:31,901
a

326
00:08:31,901 --> 00:08:32,261
repeat

327
00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:33,296
Andy: Yeah.

328
00:08:33,776 --> 00:08:34,046
Forever.

329
00:08:34,901 --> 00:08:34,961
Helen: I

330
00:08:35,051 --> 00:08:38,591
Adam: It's Andrew Rossendale, I feel
sorry for, there's no impact whatsoever.

331
00:08:38,606 --> 00:08:38,756
Andy: Two

332
00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:38,996
days

333
00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:39,146
after,

334
00:08:39,146 --> 00:08:40,226
I'm just gonna say on behalf of lots

335
00:08:40,226 --> 00:08:40,676
of listeners

336
00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:40,946
who,

337
00:08:41,591 --> 00:08:41,891
Adam: yes.

338
00:08:42,041 --> 00:08:42,551
exactly.

339
00:08:42,551 --> 00:08:45,521
He was the one who went two days
after Robert Genrich and said, by the

340
00:08:45,521 --> 00:08:46,691
way, I'm protecting reform as well.

341
00:08:46,691 --> 00:08:47,411
And Everyone did go,

342
00:08:47,441 --> 00:08:47,681
who?

343
00:08:47,831 --> 00:08:48,851
Helen: Yeah, but he, for

344
00:08:48,851 --> 00:08:51,311
a long time he wasn't allowed on
the commons estate while various

345
00:08:51,641 --> 00:08:52,691
allegations were investigated.

346
00:08:52,691 --> 00:08:53,891
So he may not have had the chance to

347
00:08:53,966 --> 00:08:54,066
Andy: the biggest

348
00:08:54,071 --> 00:08:55,151
Helen: biggest Impact.

349
00:08:55,181 --> 00:08:56,621
Did you watch the Robert Genrich?

350
00:08:56,621 --> 00:08:56,921
Nigel

351
00:08:57,011 --> 00:08:57,431
Raj?

352
00:08:57,951 --> 00:08:58,521
Press conference I

353
00:08:58,691 --> 00:08:58,841
Andy: on

354
00:08:58,841 --> 00:08:59,291
holiday.

355
00:08:59,501 --> 00:08:59,741
Oh god, Ellen,

356
00:08:59,796 --> 00:09:00,016
Adam: God.

357
00:09:00,016 --> 00:09:00,036
Oh, you

358
00:09:00,696 --> 00:09:00,856
know

359
00:09:00,861 --> 00:09:01,011
Helen: Hannah.

360
00:09:01,061 --> 00:09:01,631
Adam: have fun.

361
00:09:02,241 --> 00:09:04,941
Helen: The best thing was Nigel Frost
saying, if you like the, basic, the

362
00:09:04,941 --> 00:09:06,501
door is closing on May the fifth.

363
00:09:06,651 --> 00:09:07,101
You like,

364
00:09:07,101 --> 00:09:07,761
act now

365
00:09:07,761 --> 00:09:07,911
to

366
00:09:07,911 --> 00:09:08,331
secure

367
00:09:08,331 --> 00:09:09,291
your place in reform.

368
00:09:09,441 --> 00:09:10,491
I won't let any of you jump.

369
00:09:10,911 --> 00:09:12,291
You know the rats must leave the sinking

370
00:09:12,521 --> 00:09:13,001
Andy: Now

371
00:09:13,601 --> 00:09:15,731
I get this, with Instagram
adverts all the time though.

372
00:09:16,031 --> 00:09:18,941
we're having a last ever
closing down sale of 50% off.

373
00:09:18,941 --> 00:09:20,021
It never is.

374
00:09:20,026 --> 00:09:20,146
No,

375
00:09:20,391 --> 00:09:20,571
Helen: No, it

376
00:09:20,571 --> 00:09:23,651
never it was just a truly bizarre.

377
00:09:23,741 --> 00:09:23,951
con.

378
00:09:23,951 --> 00:09:26,861
And they sat, both of them sat there
behind that little table as various

379
00:09:26,861 --> 00:09:28,301
journalists read out, disabling

380
00:09:28,301 --> 00:09:29,681
quotes they'd said about each other and

381
00:09:29,681 --> 00:09:30,761
they went, ha.

382
00:09:30,761 --> 00:09:33,131
When I said he was a tt,
I meant in a sort of jokey

383
00:09:33,136 --> 00:09:33,526
Andy: way.

384
00:09:34,511 --> 00:09:39,076
I like the sort of, shame confessional
that Nigel will now make you read out.

385
00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:40,726
If you do defect, you have to say.

386
00:09:41,036 --> 00:09:42,836
Robert's very ashamed of having been in

387
00:09:42,836 --> 00:09:43,466
the conservatives,

388
00:09:43,466 --> 00:09:43,946
aren't you, Robert?

389
00:09:43,951 --> 00:09:44,086
Yes.

390
00:09:44,091 --> 00:09:44,306
Yes

391
00:09:44,306 --> 00:09:44,396
I

392
00:09:44,396 --> 00:09:44,576
am.

393
00:09:44,591 --> 00:09:44,891
Ian: Nigel.

394
00:09:44,891 --> 00:09:46,601
Yes, And you have to say Britain

395
00:09:46,601 --> 00:09:47,321
is broken.

396
00:09:47,326 --> 00:09:48,971
It's broken, and it's broken partly 'cause

397
00:09:48,971 --> 00:09:49,271
I was

398
00:09:49,271 --> 00:09:49,421
in

399
00:09:49,421 --> 00:09:49,901
government

400
00:09:50,231 --> 00:09:51,221
and I broke it.

401
00:09:51,551 --> 00:09:52,241
But I have now

402
00:09:52,241 --> 00:09:52,631
seen

403
00:09:52,631 --> 00:09:52,751
the

404
00:09:52,751 --> 00:09:53,081
light.

405
00:09:53,411 --> 00:09:53,681
That's why I'm

406
00:09:53,681 --> 00:09:53,741
so

407
00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:54,116
Andy: huge asset

408
00:09:54,251 --> 00:09:55,841
Ian: Elman had to say,

409
00:09:56,231 --> 00:09:58,571
I now feel at home as opposed to send

410
00:09:58,586 --> 00:09:58,826
Adam: everyone

411
00:09:58,826 --> 00:09:59,066
else

412
00:09:59,066 --> 00:09:59,156
Andy: home.

413
00:10:00,311 --> 00:10:00,431
Adam: I

414
00:10:00,821 --> 00:10:01,571
Ian: it's just,

415
00:10:02,051 --> 00:10:02,261
what,

416
00:10:02,261 --> 00:10:03,161
are we watching?

417
00:10:03,860 --> 00:10:04,160
I ran a

418
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:04,910
cover last time.

419
00:10:05,135 --> 00:10:07,520
People were worried that
she was about to defect.

420
00:10:08,090 --> 00:10:11,060
and, it was exactly the same sentiment.

421
00:10:11,232 --> 00:10:12,560
She said, I'm throwing my hate

422
00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:12,920
into the

423
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:13,340
ring,

424
00:10:14,420 --> 00:10:14,630
and,

425
00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:15,680
she's doing it again.

426
00:10:16,010 --> 00:10:16,100
Yeah.

427
00:10:16,220 --> 00:10:16,790
Presumably.

428
00:10:17,570 --> 00:10:20,090
Helen, does Farage think
these people are a threat

429
00:10:20,165 --> 00:10:20,345
Andy: or

430
00:10:20,345 --> 00:10:20,615
not?

431
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,910
Helen: I think he specifically
thinks they're not a threat, which

432
00:10:22,910 --> 00:10:24,410
is why he's allowing them to have it.

433
00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:24,650
Because

434
00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:25,010
I

435
00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:28,940
think you, the bit that he lacks is any
organizational infrastructure, right?

436
00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:32,780
Like he just, he needs that
mechanics of running things and also.

437
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,810
I think he's genuinely preparing to
be Prime Minister next time round.

438
00:10:35,810 --> 00:10:37,745
And he might say So Ella Braman

439
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:37,940
Ian: kept

440
00:10:38,135 --> 00:10:38,675
Helen: sacked from

441
00:10:38,675 --> 00:10:39,215
the home office.

442
00:10:39,215 --> 00:10:41,885
But she did, she does have
cabinet level experience.

443
00:10:42,095 --> 00:10:42,935
That is true.

444
00:10:43,205 --> 00:10:45,725
And and he just, he
really has never had that.

445
00:10:47,045 --> 00:10:47,345
as we've

446
00:10:47,645 --> 00:10:49,925
described on this podcast
before, it'd be interesting to

447
00:10:49,925 --> 00:10:50,140
Adam: see whether or

448
00:10:50,140 --> 00:10:50,220
not,

449
00:10:50,270 --> 00:10:50,540
Andy: or not,

450
00:10:51,155 --> 00:10:51,425
Helen: you

451
00:10:51,425 --> 00:10:54,616
know they, do they do the full stretch
The bit that fascinating about that

452
00:10:54,856 --> 00:10:57,166
Emmerich Press conference was a bit
where Robert Emmerich was forced

453
00:10:57,166 --> 00:10:58,456
to say, I haven't been promised any

454
00:10:58,456 --> 00:10:58,726
kind

455
00:10:58,726 --> 00:10:59,146
of job.

456
00:10:59,146 --> 00:10:59,596
And I thought,

457
00:10:59,926 --> 00:11:00,916
if that's true then you are

458
00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:01,726
Ian: stupid, so I

459
00:11:01,726 --> 00:11:01,966
don't

460
00:11:01,966 --> 00:11:02,296
believe

461
00:11:02,296 --> 00:11:02,506
you.

462
00:11:02,986 --> 00:11:05,716
Helen: You are really gonna hang
around and just, having had all this

463
00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:09,856
ambition, you surely have gotta be
thinking, Nigel smokes quite a lot.

464
00:11:09,946 --> 00:11:10,756
I'm quite young and on

465
00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:11,986
the ozempic I can wait

466
00:11:11,986 --> 00:11:12,166
Ian: this

467
00:11:12,171 --> 00:11:12,261
one

468
00:11:12,261 --> 00:11:12,421
out.

469
00:11:13,261 --> 00:11:13,461
you.

470
00:11:14,251 --> 00:11:14,371
Adam: But

471
00:11:14,371 --> 00:11:14,431
I

472
00:11:14,431 --> 00:11:14,671
think

473
00:11:14,671 --> 00:11:17,431
they're also gonna have a problem
and the they've got so many people

474
00:11:17,431 --> 00:11:19,801
who are gonna want the same jobs,
should they come into government.

475
00:11:20,371 --> 00:11:20,671
Richard

476
00:11:20,671 --> 00:11:22,111
Tyson has obviously
always assumed he's going

477
00:11:22,111 --> 00:11:22,771
to be chancellor.

478
00:11:23,146 --> 00:11:24,736
I think Za Yusef thinks he might

479
00:11:24,766 --> 00:11:24,826
Helen: be

480
00:11:24,826 --> 00:11:25,126
chancellor.

481
00:11:25,186 --> 00:11:26,026
Madam Za Howie

482
00:11:26,086 --> 00:11:26,476
Ian: thinks he's

483
00:11:26,506 --> 00:11:28,756
Adam: Zhi Zaha definitely thinks
he could come back and do it.

484
00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:29,086
again.

485
00:11:30,046 --> 00:11:30,466
declaring

486
00:11:30,466 --> 00:11:30,946
All his tax

487
00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:31,366
Andy: this

488
00:11:31,366 --> 00:11:31,606
time

489
00:11:31,606 --> 00:11:31,906
hopefully.

490
00:11:32,056 --> 00:11:34,336
no one's desperately pitching
for the Dutchy of Lancaster.

491
00:11:34,336 --> 00:11:34,456
Adam: Are

492
00:11:34,456 --> 00:11:34,576
they,

493
00:11:35,146 --> 00:11:35,506
Andy: wants

494
00:11:35,506 --> 00:11:35,746
and what do

495
00:11:35,776 --> 00:11:36,736
Adam: of jobs, but Even

496
00:11:36,736 --> 00:11:38,086
more to the point it's so top heavy.

497
00:11:38,296 --> 00:11:41,446
what they really need to have
people defecting now is the kind of

498
00:11:41,446 --> 00:11:43,301
the practical ground level stuff.

499
00:11:43,331 --> 00:11:46,421
Are they getting the constituency
associations and the kind of.

500
00:11:46,691 --> 00:11:47,261
Electoral

501
00:11:47,261 --> 00:11:49,211
agents and things, are they
defecting from the Tories?

502
00:11:49,241 --> 00:11:50,921
'cause that's where you really
need the experience on the

503
00:11:50,921 --> 00:11:51,611
ground to get people out.

504
00:11:51,731 --> 00:11:55,031
It's people who are gonna, you don't need
a lot of preening ex cabinet ministers.

505
00:11:55,031 --> 00:11:57,551
What you need is a lot of people who are
gonna go onto doorsteps in the rain and

506
00:11:57,551 --> 00:11:59,441
shove, in leaflets through people's letter

507
00:11:59,461 --> 00:11:59,971
Helen: boxes.

508
00:11:59,971 --> 00:12:00,301
And That

509
00:12:00,301 --> 00:12:01,051
they probably do have.

510
00:12:01,051 --> 00:12:04,651
because they're membership, although
quite opaque, I think it's now bigger

511
00:12:04,651 --> 00:12:04,816
than

512
00:12:04,816 --> 00:12:05,101
the

513
00:12:05,341 --> 00:12:06,211
Torries and

514
00:12:06,211 --> 00:12:07,371
bigger even than Labour.

515
00:12:07,591 --> 00:12:08,371
But you are right.

516
00:12:08,581 --> 00:12:10,831
that Those would be the people
I, would, if I was 94, I'd be

517
00:12:10,831 --> 00:12:13,501
trying to bring on board is the
constituency chairman and women.

518
00:12:13,841 --> 00:12:15,911
Who are the people who can
run a selection process?

519
00:12:15,911 --> 00:12:16,391
Who can,

520
00:12:17,056 --> 00:12:17,296
Adam: Yeah.

521
00:12:17,416 --> 00:12:17,926
And the most that

522
00:12:17,926 --> 00:12:20,596
we've heard from them is, generics,
constituency, people saying,

523
00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:21,766
we are ab, we are outraged.

524
00:12:21,766 --> 00:12:22,846
He always said he wasn't gonna do this.

525
00:12:22,846 --> 00:12:23,386
He promised to

526
00:12:23,386 --> 00:12:23,566
us.

527
00:12:23,566 --> 00:12:23,776
So

528
00:12:23,855 --> 00:12:24,305
Ian: They all,

529
00:12:24,305 --> 00:12:28,295
when they defect, say I've always been
conservative, it's in my DNA, but as of

530
00:12:28,295 --> 00:12:29,015
yesterday

531
00:12:29,705 --> 00:12:29,855
I've

532
00:12:29,855 --> 00:12:31,595
noticed I'm gonna lose my seat.

533
00:12:32,795 --> 00:12:35,345
they all do this big loyalty number.

534
00:12:35,473 --> 00:12:38,525
Whereas I think from my
experiences, the people in the

535
00:12:38,525 --> 00:12:40,325
constituencies are conservative.

536
00:12:41,955 --> 00:12:44,625
and that's why they've pushed
leaflets through doors for years.

537
00:12:44,775 --> 00:12:46,605
They are more likely to be loyal.

538
00:12:46,665 --> 00:12:49,755
So I'll be really interested to
see whether that Army of people.

539
00:12:49,965 --> 00:12:50,595
Actually do

540
00:12:50,615 --> 00:12:51,125
Adam: defect.

541
00:12:51,125 --> 00:12:52,175
because the real challenge

542
00:12:52,175 --> 00:12:54,635
is gonna be getting the vote out
in individual constituencies.

543
00:12:54,635 --> 00:12:56,795
They've still got in a
first pass the post system a

544
00:12:56,795 --> 00:13:00,545
hell of a hill to, climb,
320 whatever hills to climb.

545
00:13:01,025 --> 00:13:03,245
and that's gonna be where the
real difficulty for them lies,

546
00:13:03,255 --> 00:13:03,525
Ian: I think.

547
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:03,590
Adam: Okay,

548
00:13:03,672 --> 00:13:03,792
Can

549
00:13:03,792 --> 00:13:04,062
I just

550
00:13:04,062 --> 00:13:04,182
give,

551
00:13:04,197 --> 00:13:04,257
Ian: you

552
00:13:04,257 --> 00:13:04,587
my top

553
00:13:04,587 --> 00:13:05,097
facts about,

554
00:13:05,667 --> 00:13:05,757
yeah.

555
00:13:05,847 --> 00:13:05,967
Helen: yeah.

556
00:13:05,967 --> 00:13:06,207
Andy

557
00:13:06,207 --> 00:13:06,537
Ian: Burnham.

558
00:13:06,762 --> 00:13:09,852
Adam: Again, he's an
ex-journalist very, briefly.

559
00:13:10,182 --> 00:13:12,042
He worked for Trade Mags, including Tank

560
00:13:12,057 --> 00:13:12,507
Ian: World,

561
00:13:13,212 --> 00:13:13,542
Adam: which.

562
00:13:13,917 --> 00:13:15,567
Amazingly isn't as exciting

563
00:13:15,597 --> 00:13:15,807
Ian: as it

564
00:13:15,807 --> 00:13:16,347
Adam: sounds.

565
00:13:16,677 --> 00:13:16,767
Oh no.

566
00:13:17,367 --> 00:13:21,387
Because it is the world's premier
bulk liquid transportation

567
00:13:21,387 --> 00:13:22,107
publication.

568
00:13:22,347 --> 00:13:22,797
Oh, that kind of

569
00:13:22,797 --> 00:13:23,007
tank.

570
00:13:23,187 --> 00:13:23,577
Yeah.

571
00:13:23,817 --> 00:13:24,057
Andy: That

572
00:13:24,057 --> 00:13:24,327
sort

573
00:13:24,327 --> 00:13:24,417
of

574
00:13:24,417 --> 00:13:24,687
tank.

575
00:13:24,747 --> 00:13:26,037
I'm as interested, I'm

576
00:13:26,037 --> 00:13:26,397
Adam: afraid.

577
00:13:30,922 --> 00:13:35,092
Andy: Donald Trump has finally
recommitted to the multilateral

578
00:13:35,092 --> 00:13:37,282
process, the rules based order.

579
00:13:37,282 --> 00:13:40,702
He has set up an organization
called The Board of Peace.

580
00:13:40,882 --> 00:13:44,152
I, for one, can't wait to find out
how it's gonna work, how much peace

581
00:13:44,152 --> 00:13:45,532
it's gonna be bringing to the world.

582
00:13:45,862 --> 00:13:47,542
Helen, you've been reading
a bit more about it, right?

583
00:13:47,767 --> 00:13:48,397
Helen: So much peace.

584
00:13:48,397 --> 00:13:48,787
He had the

585
00:13:48,802 --> 00:13:50,812
Andy: signing, his person too.

586
00:13:51,397 --> 00:13:54,667
Helen: he had the signing ceremony
for it at Davos, accompanied by some

587
00:13:54,667 --> 00:13:55,897
of the people who have signed up.

588
00:13:55,897 --> 00:13:59,677
Now, he has previously said that the
United Nations is useless, not least

589
00:13:59,677 --> 00:14:01,417
when he appeared at the United Nations.

590
00:14:01,417 --> 00:14:03,817
If you remembered not that
escalator didn't work, which

591
00:14:03,817 --> 00:14:04,867
upset him an enormous amount.

592
00:14:05,377 --> 00:14:08,497
So he turned up at Davos and said, we
might work with it, but this is the kind

593
00:14:08,497 --> 00:14:11,917
of new kid in town So Do you wanna hear
about the rules for the board of peace?

594
00:14:12,037 --> 00:14:12,327
Ian: Okay,

595
00:14:13,807 --> 00:14:15,787
Helen: Anyone can join any,
I'll say anyone can join.

596
00:14:15,787 --> 00:14:18,397
I don't think you can join
personally, but any country

597
00:14:18,397 --> 00:14:20,107
can join for a three year term.

598
00:14:20,197 --> 00:14:22,987
But if you wanna be a permanent
member, a billion dollars.

599
00:14:24,397 --> 00:14:27,697
Guess who the founding director
and chair of the Board of pieces.

600
00:14:28,057 --> 00:14:30,277
indeed, lifetime chair
of the Board de post.

601
00:14:30,522 --> 00:14:30,722
I think

602
00:14:30,742 --> 00:14:31,642
Andy: I think I can guess his surname.

603
00:14:31,717 --> 00:14:32,297
Helen: It's Donald

604
00:14:32,452 --> 00:14:32,662
Andy: Trump.

605
00:14:32,752 --> 00:14:32,872
Yeah.

606
00:14:33,517 --> 00:14:34,537
Helen: yeah, he, the,

607
00:14:34,537 --> 00:14:39,097
only way he can be removed is if he
steps down, or is voted out by unanimous

608
00:14:39,097 --> 00:14:41,197
vote of the board whom he's appointed.

609
00:14:41,272 --> 00:14:43,462
Andy: This is after his presidency ends.

610
00:14:43,477 --> 00:14:43,687
Helen: Oh, yeah.

611
00:14:43,687 --> 00:14:45,007
No, he's, he gets to keep

612
00:14:45,007 --> 00:14:45,457
it after.

613
00:14:45,457 --> 00:14:46,417
he stopped being president.

614
00:14:46,422 --> 00:14:46,562
Yeah.

615
00:14:46,567 --> 00:14:46,837
Yeah.

616
00:14:46,867 --> 00:14:47,587
If he ever stops.

617
00:14:47,587 --> 00:14:47,737
being

618
00:14:47,812 --> 00:14:47,872
Andy: Yeah.

619
00:14:48,027 --> 00:14:48,187
Yeah.

620
00:14:49,207 --> 00:14:49,567
Ian: and

621
00:14:49,567 --> 00:14:52,807
is there any suggestion as
to where this money is going?

622
00:14:54,022 --> 00:14:55,852
Helen: good if unanswered question.

623
00:14:56,002 --> 00:14:59,032
So he said it won't be run with
a huge amount of executive bloat.

624
00:14:59,302 --> 00:15:02,872
But given that Trump has, and the
Trump family generally have a lot

625
00:15:02,872 --> 00:15:07,342
of crypto interests where it's not
entirely clear where some of their

626
00:15:07,342 --> 00:15:10,882
foreign, trading and stuff like that,
where that money ends up, I would

627
00:15:10,882 --> 00:15:12,292
love to see a paper trail for where

628
00:15:12,337 --> 00:15:12,577
Ian: this,

629
00:15:13,382 --> 00:15:14,852
Helen: if the, money ever gets handed.

630
00:15:15,302 --> 00:15:15,392
the

631
00:15:15,392 --> 00:15:16,772
whole thing just looked like

632
00:15:16,772 --> 00:15:17,822
a sort of weird,

633
00:15:18,422 --> 00:15:18,632
not a

634
00:15:18,632 --> 00:15:21,032
bit like the sort of sealed
knot reenactments of battles.

635
00:15:21,182 --> 00:15:23,672
It was like a sort of
reenactment of the un, but with,

636
00:15:23,672 --> 00:15:24,662
a, or

637
00:15:24,662 --> 00:15:27,542
like a school nativity play
version of the un, I just don't

638
00:15:27,542 --> 00:15:29,792
know how real it actually will be.

639
00:15:29,882 --> 00:15:31,202
So it started off as a Gaza thing,

640
00:15:31,422 --> 00:15:31,712
Adam: right?

641
00:15:31,807 --> 00:15:32,017
Andy: right?

642
00:15:32,497 --> 00:15:33,877
Helen: And so there's a
couple of different boards.

643
00:15:33,877 --> 00:15:36,877
There's the executive board, there's the
Gaza executive board, and then there's a

644
00:15:36,877 --> 00:15:39,727
board of actual Palestinians who I think
are actually gonna have to do any of the

645
00:15:39,982 --> 00:15:41,392
Adam: because it started, the
first we heard about this was

646
00:15:41,392 --> 00:15:42,532
Tony Blair was gonna sit on it?

647
00:15:42,637 --> 00:15:43,747
Helen: He is, And he's on,

648
00:15:43,882 --> 00:15:45,982
Adam: is he on the main one
or is he on the Gaza one or

649
00:15:47,137 --> 00:15:49,237
Helen: he's on the executive
board and there was a great moment

650
00:15:49,312 --> 00:15:50,137
Adam: so is he poi up a billion.

651
00:15:53,362 --> 00:15:53,512
not

652
00:15:53,527 --> 00:15:53,827
Helen: don't think

653
00:15:54,802 --> 00:15:55,092
Ian: even,

654
00:15:55,237 --> 00:15:55,687
Helen: what are they called?

655
00:15:55,687 --> 00:15:59,707
The company's fire rush and
Windrush, his, His, sort of dictator

656
00:15:59,977 --> 00:16:00,757
Ian: Bums rush being

657
00:16:01,357 --> 00:16:01,897
the, main one.

658
00:16:03,517 --> 00:16:06,577
Helen: he's sitting on one of the
boards as an individual alongside like

659
00:16:06,577 --> 00:16:10,897
Steve Woff, the Middle East envoy,
Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, the

660
00:16:11,122 --> 00:16:11,812
Adam: porcelain doll.

661
00:16:11,932 --> 00:16:12,232
Yes.

662
00:16:12,322 --> 00:16:12,622
Helen: Yeah.

663
00:16:12,622 --> 00:16:13,102
Yes.

664
00:16:13,852 --> 00:16:15,652
Adam: porcelain doll
that is his son-in-law.

665
00:16:15,772 --> 00:16:18,172
Helen: If someone needs to have a
word with esthetician, I think about

666
00:16:18,172 --> 00:16:19,522
just dialing back the Botox a bit.

667
00:16:19,672 --> 00:16:21,622
Then again, not being
very easily surprised is

668
00:16:21,622 --> 00:16:23,302
probably when you work in the Trump orbit.

669
00:16:24,507 --> 00:16:24,727
Ian: you

670
00:16:24,952 --> 00:16:26,692
don't want to register any emotions.

671
00:16:26,932 --> 00:16:27,352
Helen: Sounds

672
00:16:27,352 --> 00:16:28,132
like a great idea.

673
00:16:28,132 --> 00:16:28,732
sir. Let's get

674
00:16:28,747 --> 00:16:28,897
Andy: on.

675
00:16:29,077 --> 00:16:29,437
Adam: immediately.

676
00:16:29,747 --> 00:16:29,967
Ian: Um.

677
00:16:30,492 --> 00:16:31,872
Helen: Anyway, so that,
that's the personal bit.

678
00:16:31,872 --> 00:16:35,382
And there was a great bit in the ceremony
when, Trump was introducing people

679
00:16:35,382 --> 00:16:38,322
and he said, we've got people on the
board, some popular, some less popular.

680
00:16:38,322 --> 00:16:41,862
He said, looking at Tony Blair,
it was quite harsh, I felt.

681
00:16:42,132 --> 00:16:43,692
And then he brought them all up to sign.

682
00:16:43,692 --> 00:16:44,897
So Jer Malay, his big.

683
00:16:44,977 --> 00:16:45,217
Andy: big

684
00:16:45,787 --> 00:16:46,777
Helen: Muled friend,

685
00:16:46,777 --> 00:16:46,837
of

686
00:16:47,017 --> 00:16:48,142
Andy: chainsaw Tina, Mr. Chainsaw,

687
00:16:48,307 --> 00:16:48,547
Helen: Mr.

688
00:16:48,547 --> 00:16:50,737
Chainsaw's on the Victor Orban of Hungary.

689
00:16:50,737 --> 00:16:51,637
who's a big.

690
00:16:52,237 --> 00:16:53,407
Trump Lackey was obviously

691
00:16:53,407 --> 00:16:54,697
Ian: he's representing the Liberal

692
00:16:54,697 --> 00:16:55,027
wing,

693
00:16:56,287 --> 00:16:57,727
Adam: you say he brought
them all up to sign.

694
00:16:57,877 --> 00:17:00,517
actually two of the members of
the Border piece couldn't attend

695
00:17:00,517 --> 00:17:03,127
because they're under international
arrest warrants, aren't they?

696
00:17:03,127 --> 00:17:05,137
In the form of Alexander Lukashenko and,

697
00:17:05,792 --> 00:17:07,622
Helen: Vladimir Putin
has only been invited.

698
00:17:07,622 --> 00:17:09,692
He's still quibbling over
whether or not he will in.

699
00:17:09,692 --> 00:17:11,582
fact, join up or not.

700
00:17:12,337 --> 00:17:14,647
Adam: but Benjamin Netanyahu as
well has got a bit of bother with

701
00:17:14,647 --> 00:17:15,877
the, international criminal court,

702
00:17:15,877 --> 00:17:16,097
Helen: Yes.

703
00:17:16,262 --> 00:17:17,252
Bit of a legal issue there.

704
00:17:17,252 --> 00:17:20,192
And also the, but one of Putin's
things that he's as ever trolling

705
00:17:20,192 --> 00:17:24,122
about is whether or not his billion
could come from seized Russian assets.

706
00:17:24,482 --> 00:17:26,462
So essentially money he doesn't
currently have access to.

707
00:17:26,842 --> 00:17:29,242
Ian: and then he could use
it to pay his entry fee.

708
00:17:29,352 --> 00:17:29,532
Andy: Okay.

709
00:17:29,532 --> 00:17:33,132
But I'm hearing a lot of skepticism
frankly, guys, and I don't like it.

710
00:17:33,672 --> 00:17:35,622
I can we, let's focus on the piece.

711
00:17:35,742 --> 00:17:35,862
Yes.

712
00:17:35,862 --> 00:17:38,292
Because we know Trump's
already ended eight wars.

713
00:17:39,412 --> 00:17:39,632
So

714
00:17:39,957 --> 00:17:41,337
are there really any more left to end?

715
00:17:42,087 --> 00:17:42,387
Helen: actually

716
00:17:43,017 --> 00:17:44,007
a very, good point.

717
00:17:44,157 --> 00:17:47,427
There was a moment, a particularly
haunting moment when, Jared Cushner

718
00:17:47,427 --> 00:17:49,917
was brought up to do what I can only
describe as actually, to use your

719
00:17:49,917 --> 00:17:52,167
word, a sort of haunted McKinsey

720
00:17:52,407 --> 00:17:53,127
keynote

721
00:17:53,487 --> 00:17:57,687
quarter two presentation about his
plan for Gaza, which was quite heavy

722
00:17:57,687 --> 00:18:01,227
on sort of little diagrams about
arrows of stuff going to each other.

723
00:18:01,377 --> 00:18:03,807
And then there was a plan for
what he's gonna do to wrap a City.

724
00:18:03,897 --> 00:18:06,297
So in Gaza, 80% of the
buildings have been destroyed.

725
00:18:06,297 --> 00:18:07,497
It's a huge rebuilding project.

726
00:18:07,727 --> 00:18:10,727
But it was here are some skyscraper,
almost, you were expecting to see

727
00:18:10,907 --> 00:18:12,257
like little flying cars around the

728
00:18:12,257 --> 00:18:13,217
AI generated

729
00:18:13,517 --> 00:18:17,037
images, but that's, that's where
some of the money could go.

730
00:18:17,037 --> 00:18:19,317
This is a question like, who's
gonna pay to rebuild Gaza?

731
00:18:19,767 --> 00:18:22,227
Trump keeps saying it should be
the surrounding Muslim countries.

732
00:18:22,347 --> 00:18:24,807
Obviously Israel not very
keen to pay maybe some of this

733
00:18:24,807 --> 00:18:26,217
money in the best possible.

734
00:18:26,277 --> 00:18:29,337
If I was gonna be able to give you
the best, most generous assessment,

735
00:18:29,697 --> 00:18:31,077
other countries could chip in.

736
00:18:31,347 --> 00:18:31,977
But essentially the

737
00:18:32,082 --> 00:18:33,282
Ian: But they could do that anyway.

738
00:18:33,282 --> 00:18:33,492
Yeah.

739
00:18:33,972 --> 00:18:35,592
They don't have to do it via some

740
00:18:35,592 --> 00:18:38,622
fatuous body that Trump has just invented.

741
00:18:38,662 --> 00:18:39,082
Helen: Yes.

742
00:18:39,262 --> 00:18:42,172
and there I would always worry in this
situation that he's going to invent like

743
00:18:42,172 --> 00:18:45,712
Gaza Coin and for everybody to put their
money into some sort of special meme

744
00:18:45,712 --> 00:18:50,152
coin that for the rebuilding of Gaza
money's later never to be seen again.

745
00:18:50,967 --> 00:18:57,237
Andy: I, believe that the Board of Peace
has been accepted or endorsed somehow

746
00:18:57,237 --> 00:18:58,857
by the, is it the UN Security Council?

747
00:18:59,422 --> 00:19:03,107
Helen: the UN has got a resolution
about the rebuilding of Gaza, which

748
00:19:03,107 --> 00:19:04,487
they're working in accordance with.

749
00:19:04,487 --> 00:19:06,077
And that's Trump's 20 point plan.

750
00:19:06,287 --> 00:19:10,277
But the UN has done kind of what I would
expect 'em to do, which sounds is gone.

751
00:19:10,577 --> 00:19:11,027
Great.

752
00:19:11,687 --> 00:19:16,217
Get on with it lads, let's all see, when
raffle, when it's rebuilt, you crack on.

753
00:19:16,217 --> 00:19:16,517
But it struck

754
00:19:16,562 --> 00:19:17,037
Ian: But it

755
00:19:17,037 --> 00:19:21,387
struck me that Trump's, initiative
to have an alternative un like

756
00:19:21,447 --> 00:19:25,647
nearly all his decisions hinges on
one moment where he felt slighted.

757
00:19:25,947 --> 00:19:29,337
So it's the speech where
Obama was mildly rude to him.

758
00:19:29,757 --> 00:19:32,067
This is his visit to the UN and

759
00:19:32,757 --> 00:19:36,297
he thinks that the UN slighted him
'cause he said, you are a collection

760
00:19:36,297 --> 00:19:37,887
of shithole countries that don't work.

761
00:19:37,887 --> 00:19:38,787
I dunno what I'm doing.

762
00:19:38,787 --> 00:19:38,877
here.

763
00:19:39,507 --> 00:19:39,657
I

764
00:19:39,657 --> 00:19:40,947
could do it much better.

765
00:19:41,127 --> 00:19:42,357
And the Teleprompt doesn't work.

766
00:19:42,477 --> 00:19:45,717
And he's decided to set
up an alternative un.

767
00:19:46,137 --> 00:19:48,507
How long this will last is anyone's guess?

768
00:19:49,407 --> 00:19:50,517
anyone who guess is less

769
00:19:50,517 --> 00:19:51,477
than five minutes.

770
00:19:51,987 --> 00:19:56,337
but essentially all he's doing is
attempting to replace something he

771
00:19:56,337 --> 00:19:58,377
hates with something with him in charge.

772
00:19:58,377 --> 00:20:00,657
Yeah, that's, the modus operandi.

773
00:20:00,792 --> 00:20:02,472
Helen: running it like Mara Larga, Right?

774
00:20:02,472 --> 00:20:04,842
He's running it like a golf club
or a private members club, which

775
00:20:04,842 --> 00:20:06,162
is you have an entry fee and

776
00:20:06,162 --> 00:20:06,492
then you had all

777
00:20:06,492 --> 00:20:08,502
these fabulous benefits, which mostly are

778
00:20:08,672 --> 00:20:09,122
Hanging

779
00:20:09,122 --> 00:20:11,012
around with the president
of the United States.

780
00:20:11,342 --> 00:20:14,522
The interesting thing is I was
surprised that, maybe I wasn't surprised

781
00:20:14,642 --> 00:20:15,992
that Victor Orban signed up to it.

782
00:20:16,088 --> 00:20:18,248
I guess a lot of those leaders
are thinking, we'll never

783
00:20:18,248 --> 00:20:19,268
have to pony up this money.

784
00:20:19,268 --> 00:20:20,618
This is Ill, he'll have
forgotten about it.

785
00:20:20,618 --> 00:20:24,368
In 10 minutes it'll be, or we'll
say, it's gonna be in special bonds

786
00:20:24,368 --> 00:20:25,748
or something bollocks like that.

787
00:20:26,238 --> 00:20:27,678
But The European Union would.

788
00:20:27,678 --> 00:20:32,298
just Hard no, Macron, France
said, we're not joining this.

789
00:20:32,298 --> 00:20:36,318
And then he said, I'm gonna put Trump said
I'm gonna put 200% tariffs on champagne,

790
00:20:36,708 --> 00:20:39,468
which was just a kind of great, what's
the most French thing I can think of?

791
00:20:39,558 --> 00:20:41,388
I'm gonna attack strikes and yellow

792
00:20:41,388 --> 00:20:42,078
Adam: small mustaches

793
00:20:42,498 --> 00:20:42,678
Ian: and bess.

794
00:20:43,398 --> 00:20:43,938
Adam: tops,

795
00:20:44,518 --> 00:20:44,938
Andy: french

796
00:20:44,948 --> 00:20:45,298
fries.

797
00:20:45,398 --> 00:20:45,618
But.

798
00:20:46,353 --> 00:20:46,653
Ian: he's got a

799
00:20:46,653 --> 00:20:47,343
history.

800
00:20:47,888 --> 00:20:50,978
Helen: And then Mark Carney of Canada gave
a very good speech at Davos, which was

801
00:20:50,978 --> 00:20:52,658
about what he called the middle powers.

802
00:20:52,658 --> 00:20:56,588
He said, when we are now entering
this era again of the great power

803
00:20:56,588 --> 00:20:58,898
rivalry, America, China, Russia,

804
00:20:59,468 --> 00:20:59,948
and then

805
00:20:59,978 --> 00:21:01,868
where does that leave the
second tier countries?

806
00:21:01,868 --> 00:21:03,998
And he said, we, if we're
not gonna be subservient.

807
00:21:03,998 --> 00:21:05,378
We have got to work together.

808
00:21:05,378 --> 00:21:08,948
And he talked about the fact that Canada
has obviously got, is contributing

809
00:21:08,948 --> 00:21:10,628
to the war in Ukraine, for example.

810
00:21:10,928 --> 00:21:14,108
And that was the kind of actually one
of the most interesting things that

811
00:21:14,108 --> 00:21:15,488
might come out of Trump at Davos.

812
00:21:15,488 --> 00:21:17,108
And the border piece is a kind of.

813
00:21:17,588 --> 00:21:20,978
Not like a super European
Union, but actually the,

814
00:21:20,978 --> 00:21:24,998
sort of border piece, which will be
what I think of as sane countries,

815
00:21:25,598 --> 00:21:26,318
basically

816
00:21:26,467 --> 00:21:29,017
Ian: part of the problem for
Trump is that his criticism

817
00:21:29,017 --> 00:21:31,627
of the UN was, it's sclerotic.

818
00:21:31,627 --> 00:21:35,437
Nothing ever happens because
you've got all these conflicting.

819
00:21:35,872 --> 00:21:41,092
Voices like say, having Russia
on the same panel as, China or

820
00:21:41,092 --> 00:21:43,252
America, and he's replicated that.

821
00:21:43,462 --> 00:21:43,732
So

822
00:21:43,732 --> 00:21:48,652
how he thinks this is an alternative
model in which there will be easily,

823
00:21:49,162 --> 00:21:52,702
arranged accords between major powers,
which will sort everything out.

824
00:21:53,152 --> 00:21:54,832
Isn't that what he objected to in the

825
00:21:54,832 --> 00:21:55,162
un?

826
00:21:55,702 --> 00:21:57,982
Andy: it, seems that a lot of it
is government by announcement.

827
00:21:58,657 --> 00:22:02,437
Trump is very nervous about any kind
of sustained military engagement

828
00:22:02,437 --> 00:22:06,607
anywhere clearly, but loves a,
big raid strike on somewhere.

829
00:22:06,697 --> 00:22:08,887
We've gone in, we've sorted out Venezuela,

830
00:22:09,472 --> 00:22:10,312
Ian: we've gone out again.

831
00:22:10,867 --> 00:22:11,107
Andy: Yeah,

832
00:22:11,647 --> 00:22:14,197
exactly that and this, it
seemed a bit like that to me.

833
00:22:14,437 --> 00:22:14,527
Adam: I

834
00:22:14,527 --> 00:22:16,747
suspect the answer to it will be
that there isn't a lot of debate and

835
00:22:16,747 --> 00:22:19,267
a lot of voting between different
people who disagree on things.

836
00:22:19,267 --> 00:22:22,327
So I had a look at the opening charter
of the board piece says decisions

837
00:22:22,327 --> 00:22:25,507
should be made by a majority of the
member states present by voting.

838
00:22:25,957 --> 00:22:27,547
Subject to the approval of the chairman.

839
00:22:28,777 --> 00:22:30,487
it's not even like a deciding vote.

840
00:22:30,487 --> 00:22:33,037
It's actually like whether
he wanted to go ahead or not.

841
00:22:33,037 --> 00:22:33,247
Isn't

842
00:22:33,307 --> 00:22:36,127
Helen: reckon first order of business will
be instituting some sort of board of peace

843
00:22:36,622 --> 00:22:36,742
Andy: that

844
00:22:36,742 --> 00:22:36,862
they

845
00:22:37,057 --> 00:22:37,807
Helen: then awarded

846
00:22:37,807 --> 00:22:38,347
Adam: give to him.

847
00:22:38,542 --> 00:22:38,892
Ian: maybe,

848
00:22:38,947 --> 00:22:40,717
Helen: that actually may be
the plan behind all of it.

849
00:22:40,972 --> 00:22:41,242
Yeah,

850
00:22:41,242 --> 00:22:44,572
I think that's why, I mean, about
how, I dunno how seriously to take it.

851
00:22:44,812 --> 00:22:45,922
And the interesting thing is.

852
00:22:45,922 --> 00:22:46,312
about

853
00:22:46,882 --> 00:22:47,242
Something

854
00:22:47,242 --> 00:22:50,512
about the way that the Trump admin
is currently operating is every

855
00:22:50,542 --> 00:22:53,422
unbelievable Lib 2004 opinion.

856
00:22:53,422 --> 00:22:56,332
So you know that kind of Michael
Moore strand of the left that said

857
00:22:56,332 --> 00:22:58,852
Iraq was all about oil and you
were that was supposed to be a very

858
00:22:58,852 --> 00:23:00,322
unsophisticated thing to think.

859
00:23:00,592 --> 00:23:03,922
And then with Venezuela, they just went,
it's of course, it's all about oil,

860
00:23:03,922 --> 00:23:04,282
isn't it?

861
00:23:04,287 --> 00:23:04,377
Yeah.

862
00:23:04,377 --> 00:23:04,537
Yeah.

863
00:23:04,552 --> 00:23:07,462
And then this presentation for
the Board of Peace was essentially

864
00:23:08,452 --> 00:23:11,152
pitching, particularly Steve Wick
coffin, Jared Kushner, pitching

865
00:23:11,152 --> 00:23:12,532
to a room full of businessmen.

866
00:23:13,102 --> 00:23:14,692
This, you're gonna make a load of money.

867
00:23:14,722 --> 00:23:14,932
Right.

868
00:23:14,932 --> 00:23:17,542
Which is always the criticism of
Dick Cheney Halliburton, that the

869
00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:20,872
Iraq war was incredibly good for
American military contractors, not

870
00:23:20,872 --> 00:23:22,072
so much for the people of Iraq.

871
00:23:22,282 --> 00:23:23,692
And then they were just doing this.

872
00:23:23,692 --> 00:23:24,862
So it

873
00:23:24,862 --> 00:23:28,312
was basically like you lad can make
a load of money running the hotel

874
00:23:28,312 --> 00:23:30,412
industry in the newly revitalized Gaza.

875
00:23:30,922 --> 00:23:31,432
And just

876
00:23:31,432 --> 00:23:33,772
a straightforward, like this
is an investment opportunity

877
00:23:33,772 --> 00:23:34,222
for you

878
00:23:34,762 --> 00:23:37,492
Ian: and this is meant to be
a strength, this is realism.

879
00:23:38,152 --> 00:23:42,052
in that all government is
essentially, financial transaction.

880
00:23:42,382 --> 00:23:43,522
Which it clearly isn't.

881
00:23:44,302 --> 00:23:44,692
That's one

882
00:23:44,692 --> 00:23:44,842
of the

883
00:23:44,842 --> 00:23:46,432
few things History teaches

884
00:23:47,017 --> 00:23:47,407
Adam: financial

885
00:23:47,407 --> 00:23:49,867
transactions is The benefit of the
Trump organization as well, isn't it?

886
00:23:50,047 --> 00:23:53,287
what struck me with this is that
they're, obliged under the terms of this,

887
00:23:53,287 --> 00:23:54,847
charter to meet at least once a year.

888
00:23:55,057 --> 00:23:56,407
And on other, ad hoc meetings.

889
00:23:56,977 --> 00:23:59,497
those sort of things tend
to take place at Mar Largo

890
00:23:59,527 --> 00:23:59,887
or

891
00:24:00,397 --> 00:24:02,557
nice Trump golf resorts where suddenly.

892
00:24:02,912 --> 00:24:05,612
The hotels are sold out and all
of the security details have gotta

893
00:24:05,612 --> 00:24:06,392
be put up and things as well.

894
00:24:06,392 --> 00:24:09,242
And the money goes directly
back into, into the commercial

895
00:24:09,242 --> 00:24:10,502
interest of the president as well.

896
00:24:10,892 --> 00:24:12,842
That's the one thing that
might keep this going, I think.

897
00:24:13,057 --> 00:24:13,357
Helen: Yeah.

898
00:24:13,357 --> 00:24:15,127
that's why I think I, my most.

899
00:24:15,397 --> 00:24:18,097
Favorite option for what happens
is essentially this is a once

900
00:24:18,097 --> 00:24:19,477
a year meeting at the Miami

901
00:24:19,477 --> 00:24:20,917
Doral Trump Golf course.

902
00:24:21,037 --> 00:24:23,257
or maybe, what's the
Scottish one that he owns?

903
00:24:23,257 --> 00:24:24,487
We Yeah, exactly.

904
00:24:24,487 --> 00:24:26,107
We can have a bid for
it so that we can have

905
00:24:26,347 --> 00:24:28,717
Vladimir Putin come
and talk about peace in

906
00:24:29,177 --> 00:24:32,447
Ian: having said that, this was going
to be an in international body that

907
00:24:32,537 --> 00:24:34,577
sorted out, the problems of the world.

908
00:24:35,237 --> 00:24:35,507
He

909
00:24:35,507 --> 00:24:38,687
has previously said that there is
no such thing as international law.

910
00:24:38,927 --> 00:24:40,487
There is only his own morality.

911
00:24:40,547 --> 00:24:42,047
He needs no other guide.

912
00:24:42,197 --> 00:24:48,647
So the entire world now, according to
Donald Trump, only needs his personal

913
00:24:48,767 --> 00:24:51,347
set of, morals in order to sort itself

914
00:24:51,347 --> 00:24:51,677
out.

915
00:24:51,797 --> 00:24:53,027
Andy: I for one, feel safer already.

916
00:24:53,243 --> 00:24:53,543
Ian: should we

917
00:24:53,658 --> 00:24:53,778
just

918
00:24:53,778 --> 00:24:54,618
pretend it's a joke then?

919
00:24:56,633 --> 00:24:58,823
Adam: if it was a joke, and I mean,
if you were writing this up for the

920
00:24:58,823 --> 00:25:01,673
joke pages a pro I mean, you, once the
members of the Board of Peace, would

921
00:25:01,673 --> 00:25:06,713
you go as far as Alexander Lukashenko
and Malay and Benjamin Netanyahu?

922
00:25:06,953 --> 00:25:07,523
it's quite,

923
00:25:07,838 --> 00:25:08,258
Ian: no, I'd

924
00:25:08,258 --> 00:25:10,268
add them in for effect afterwards

925
00:25:11,063 --> 00:25:11,123
Adam: as

926
00:25:11,138 --> 00:25:11,438
Ian: sort of

927
00:25:11,438 --> 00:25:13,388
exaggerated overstatement.

928
00:25:14,123 --> 00:25:14,303
Adam: It's

929
00:25:14,423 --> 00:25:16,973
Helen: Yeah, I think the thing
that's interesting about that is

930
00:25:16,973 --> 00:25:19,343
that Trump reversed on Greenland.

931
00:25:19,808 --> 00:25:20,198
And as ever,

932
00:25:20,198 --> 00:25:22,808
it was really the financial
markets just turning.

933
00:25:22,898 --> 00:25:25,868
He, that is still a rebuke that
he, worries about, he did fold

934
00:25:25,883 --> 00:25:26,213
Andy: on that.

935
00:25:26,648 --> 00:25:28,703
Helen: Whereas what's very interesting
that's currently also happening,

936
00:25:28,703 --> 00:25:31,688
we talked last episode about
Minnesota and ICE and border patrol.

937
00:25:31,859 --> 00:25:35,074
Ian: is slightly ironic, isn't it,
establishing a border peace when you are.

938
00:25:35,199 --> 00:25:35,229
Helen: are,

939
00:25:35,229 --> 00:25:35,239
Andy: are.

940
00:25:35,524 --> 00:25:35,744
Um.

941
00:25:36,504 --> 00:25:38,064
Ian: Promulgating civil war

942
00:25:38,244 --> 00:25:38,934
at home.

943
00:25:39,264 --> 00:25:41,874
you can't even keep peace
in one of your own cities.

944
00:25:42,804 --> 00:25:43,704
Not, even trying to keep peace.

945
00:25:43,704 --> 00:25:44,394
You are actually

946
00:25:44,514 --> 00:25:45,714
destabilizing

947
00:25:45,714 --> 00:25:48,504
the city in order to create non peace.

948
00:25:48,564 --> 00:25:48,744
Andy: Yeah.

949
00:25:49,419 --> 00:25:51,474
Helen: I think that's what's
happening in, Minneapolis, is that

950
00:25:51,864 --> 00:25:52,404
these,

951
00:25:52,854 --> 00:25:56,064
non-police forces that have been
told by Stephen Miller, who is

952
00:25:56,064 --> 00:25:59,124
essentially the kind of, I guess you'd
call him, Trump's prime minister.

953
00:25:59,364 --> 00:26:01,794
he hasn't got a very impressive
title, but he's essentially running.

954
00:26:02,064 --> 00:26:04,614
The White House domestically
has said, they've got immunity.

955
00:26:05,184 --> 00:26:07,944
our federal agents are doing a
really important job cracking down

956
00:26:07,944 --> 00:26:09,474
on rapists and domestic abusers.

957
00:26:09,504 --> 00:26:12,564
And actually, we shouldn't, no
one should be standing in their

958
00:26:12,564 --> 00:26:13,734
way of them doing anything.

959
00:26:13,734 --> 00:26:16,644
And if they, and if people
get killed, then tough luck.

960
00:26:17,124 --> 00:26:19,674
And what happened with the latest
killing is that the White House came

961
00:26:19,674 --> 00:26:23,874
out immediately and just lied, just
straight up, like Christy Nome of Homeland

962
00:26:23,874 --> 00:26:25,704
Security said this guy who was killed.

963
00:26:25,704 --> 00:26:28,734
was a domestic terrorist
who turned up trying to kill

964
00:26:28,734 --> 00:26:28,944
ice

965
00:26:28,981 --> 00:26:29,259
Adam: agents.

966
00:26:29,289 --> 00:26:30,369
Brandishing the gun.

967
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:31,179
Yeah.

968
00:26:31,199 --> 00:26:33,459
and attempting to, take
out several ice agents.

969
00:26:33,459 --> 00:26:33,519
Yeah.

970
00:26:33,939 --> 00:26:34,119
which

971
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,129
was just so obvious from the
footage that wasn't the case.

972
00:26:36,129 --> 00:26:39,099
And what was clear from the footage
as well was the, gun that the guy was

973
00:26:39,099 --> 00:26:42,519
carrying had been taken off him at
the point before he was shot 10 times.

974
00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:43,856
So even under that justification,

975
00:26:43,906 --> 00:26:47,266
Andy: The press do seem to be having
quite a hard time covering it.

976
00:26:48,016 --> 00:26:48,316
certainly

977
00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:51,856
in America as other than
anything but a war of words.

978
00:26:52,066 --> 00:26:52,186
Oh.

979
00:26:52,306 --> 00:26:54,586
there seemed to be a lot of conflicting
narratives about this shooting

980
00:26:54,586 --> 00:26:54,826
of a

981
00:26:55,306 --> 00:26:58,846
civilian who'd just been disarmed of a gun
He appears to have been carrying legally,

982
00:26:58,891 --> 00:26:58,981
Helen: well,

983
00:26:59,986 --> 00:27:00,646
Andy: very hard to say.

984
00:27:00,646 --> 00:27:01,096
Who's right

985
00:27:01,111 --> 00:27:01,321
Ian: here?

986
00:27:01,411 --> 00:27:01,741
Yeah.

987
00:27:02,071 --> 00:27:05,401
as opposed to saying, why do
you think, he was shot then?

988
00:27:05,611 --> 00:27:05,761
Yeah.

989
00:27:06,331 --> 00:27:07,321
and does that matter?

990
00:27:08,131 --> 00:27:10,111
it seems to me the focus on

991
00:27:10,591 --> 00:27:10,981
Trump's

992
00:27:10,981 --> 00:27:14,941
assault on truth, which he's been doing
for a long time, and it is grotesque

993
00:27:14,941 --> 00:27:19,801
and really offends people, but It
does mask, it creates a huge amount of

994
00:27:19,801 --> 00:27:21,361
flack, which I'm sure is deliberate.

995
00:27:22,171 --> 00:27:25,831
rather than the event itself,
which is American citizens being

996
00:27:25,831 --> 00:27:27,661
shot dead in a city for doing

997
00:27:27,661 --> 00:27:27,811
nothing.

998
00:27:28,561 --> 00:27:28,801
Adam: One

999
00:27:28,801 --> 00:27:31,711
aspect, which I thought was really
interesting was, the, that Trump

1000
00:27:31,711 --> 00:27:34,111
came out himself and said on truth
social, he was carrying a gun.

1001
00:27:34,111 --> 00:27:36,181
And anyone who carries a gun
to a protest can be vegetable.

1002
00:27:36,271 --> 00:27:39,331
that is an absolute enshrined thing
in the Second Amendment, isn't it?

1003
00:27:39,751 --> 00:27:41,701
the Second, Amendment, correct me if
I'm wrong, I'm not brilliant on American

1004
00:27:41,701 --> 00:27:44,431
history, but it's specifically about
setting up militias to defend yourself

1005
00:27:44,431 --> 00:27:46,021
from an overreaching government, isn't it?

1006
00:27:46,021 --> 00:27:47,341
that, that is what is happening.

1007
00:27:47,701 --> 00:27:48,031
And that

1008
00:27:48,031 --> 00:27:48,751
is, it

1009
00:27:48,751 --> 00:27:50,851
seems to me that more and more Trump

1010
00:27:50,851 --> 00:27:54,901
is going complete opposition to the sort
of traditional Republican ideas, a lot

1011
00:27:54,901 --> 00:27:56,701
of traditional American ideas like that.

1012
00:27:56,701 --> 00:27:58,111
He seems to have lost as

1013
00:27:58,111 --> 00:27:58,171
you

1014
00:27:58,171 --> 00:27:58,501
were saying,

1015
00:27:58,501 --> 00:27:58,771
that his

1016
00:27:59,431 --> 00:28:03,031
appeal was supposedly that he, spoke
directly to a base that, that kind of,

1017
00:28:03,061 --> 00:28:04,561
he really got their concerns and things.

1018
00:28:04,561 --> 00:28:06,541
He, he seems to have
lost that now completely.

1019
00:28:06,826 --> 00:28:09,346
Helen: I think there will be still
some people who are in information

1020
00:28:09,346 --> 00:28:11,896
environments where they're
just not hearing any of that.

1021
00:28:12,166 --> 00:28:15,496
But if you look at his headline
poll numbers on, this, it's clear

1022
00:28:15,496 --> 00:28:18,406
that quite a big chunk of America
actually doesn't like what the, what

1023
00:28:18,406 --> 00:28:19,936
ICE and the border Patrol are doing.

1024
00:28:20,206 --> 00:28:20,746
So I wouldn't,

1025
00:28:22,906 --> 00:28:25,576
it's, I think it's, I genuinely,
said this last time, I do think

1026
00:28:25,576 --> 00:28:27,196
it is genuinely really concerning.

1027
00:28:27,226 --> 00:28:30,011
'cause Ian, exactly as you were
saying, there is a deliberate level of

1028
00:28:30,011 --> 00:28:32,381
provocation here, going out and getting.

1029
00:28:32,771 --> 00:28:36,251
Never deescalating getting into these
very difficult and dangerous situations.

1030
00:28:36,401 --> 00:28:37,301
And then as soon as

1031
00:28:37,421 --> 00:28:39,941
and in this case, it looks
to be like a complete,

1032
00:28:40,151 --> 00:28:40,211
it

1033
00:28:40,211 --> 00:28:43,901
was just a complete cockup of
miscommunication and then extremely

1034
00:28:43,901 --> 00:28:48,131
trigger happy, badly trained,
clearly panicked agents again,

1035
00:28:48,136 --> 00:28:52,121
like Goode, just start firing and
in this case firing and firing

1036
00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:53,476
Andy: and

1037
00:28:53,711 --> 00:28:54,281
Helen: but that's.

1038
00:28:54,966 --> 00:28:55,416
That is

1039
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:59,076
what's gonna happen if you put
people out into, do deliberately

1040
00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:00,936
aggressive in your face immigration

1041
00:29:00,961 --> 00:29:01,591
Andy: enforcement

1042
00:29:01,681 --> 00:29:03,571
and you tell them they're,
they've got impunity.

1043
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:04,026
Helen: Yeah.

1044
00:29:04,026 --> 00:29:07,176
And you say it's like Trump's always going
on about that film, the Purge, just about

1045
00:29:07,176 --> 00:29:10,236
the idea that it, what if you just had a
time where some like tough men were just

1046
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:12,216
allowed to do exactly what they wanted

1047
00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:16,726
Ian: and presumably at some stage
this, counters any appreciation

1048
00:29:16,726 --> 00:29:17,806
of the American military.

1049
00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:19,846
And I think that's why
he got into trouble.

1050
00:29:20,026 --> 00:29:24,436
By saying that NATO forces had not stepped
up to the mark and hadn't been on the

1051
00:29:24,436 --> 00:29:28,701
front line and essentially said everyone
else was cowardly, because that's not

1052
00:29:28,701 --> 00:29:30,196
what the American military thought.

1053
00:29:30,376 --> 00:29:32,356
That's not what anyone
else in NATO thought.

1054
00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:38,696
And it suggested that that tradition
of a sort of vaguely supervised and

1055
00:29:38,816 --> 00:29:44,306
legal entity IE an Army, was better
than a group of people in masks going

1056
00:29:44,306 --> 00:29:45,806
around shooting your own citizens.

1057
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,986
And I think that, again
is, somewhere where

1058
00:29:48,986 --> 00:29:49,886
he's gone wrong.

1059
00:29:50,666 --> 00:29:53,666
and the fact that he climbed
down on that I thought was partly

1060
00:29:53,666 --> 00:29:55,406
due to reaction in America.

1061
00:29:55,921 --> 00:29:56,071
Adam: But

1062
00:29:56,071 --> 00:29:58,591
again, it's one of those things that's
absolutely quintessential American

1063
00:29:58,591 --> 00:30:00,241
value is respect for veterans, isn't it?

1064
00:30:01,231 --> 00:30:01,321
Helen: Yeah.

1065
00:30:01,321 --> 00:30:02,311
But he already blew through that.

1066
00:30:02,311 --> 00:30:02,521
Remember?

1067
00:30:02,521 --> 00:30:05,842
He said, the people in the Cemetery
at Arlington were suckers and losers.

1068
00:30:06,202 --> 00:30:07,042
Why would anyone go

1069
00:30:07,432 --> 00:30:07,552
and

1070
00:30:07,552 --> 00:30:08,572
die for their country?

1071
00:30:08,692 --> 00:30:09,112
what's in it

1072
00:30:09,112 --> 00:30:09,502
Adam: for you?

1073
00:30:09,562 --> 00:30:09,832
And John

1074
00:30:09,832 --> 00:30:10,522
McCain as well.

1075
00:30:10,612 --> 00:30:11,032
Helen: John McCain.

1076
00:30:11,032 --> 00:30:11,632
I like people who

1077
00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:12,232
Adam: I like people who

1078
00:30:12,232 --> 00:30:12,382
aren't,

1079
00:30:12,382 --> 00:30:12,802
captured.

1080
00:30:12,827 --> 00:30:13,702
Helen: I like people who aren't captured.

1081
00:30:13,702 --> 00:30:15,982
He said about a guy who couldn't
raise his arms above his head 'cause

1082
00:30:15,982 --> 00:30:17,182
he'd been tortured so badly in

1083
00:30:17,182 --> 00:30:17,692
Adam: Vietnam

1084
00:30:17,785 --> 00:30:19,942
and this coming from a man who
does the draft five times for

1085
00:30:19,942 --> 00:30:21,142
Vietnam himself, didn't they?

1086
00:30:21,352 --> 00:30:21,502
It's

1087
00:30:22,042 --> 00:30:22,312
Andy: just,

1088
00:30:22,642 --> 00:30:25,192
Helen: that's the thing I felt actually,
one of the emotions I felt looking

1089
00:30:25,192 --> 00:30:28,372
at the kind of maga commentators
trying to defend it, was I just felt

1090
00:30:28,372 --> 00:30:30,322
profound embarrassment on their behalf.

1091
00:30:30,592 --> 00:30:33,562
Just the kind of They clearly can't
feel shame, so it's good that someone's

1092
00:30:33,562 --> 00:30:36,772
feeling it on their behalf, but every
day they're forced into these new mad

1093
00:30:36,802 --> 00:30:37,462
Andy: contortions.

1094
00:30:37,462 --> 00:30:37,882
It's very,

1095
00:30:38,212 --> 00:30:40,072
comical alley for those
with long memories,

1096
00:30:40,267 --> 00:30:40,357
Ian: it?

1097
00:30:40,437 --> 00:30:41,637
Helen: It's very comical alley.

1098
00:30:41,812 --> 00:30:41,992
yeah.

1099
00:30:42,472 --> 00:30:43,162
but at least he was getting

1100
00:30:43,162 --> 00:30:43,732
paid.

1101
00:30:43,902 --> 00:30:46,512
Adam: the speech last week at Davos
where he said Iceland three times

1102
00:30:46,512 --> 00:30:47,562
when he was referring to Greenland.

1103
00:30:47,922 --> 00:30:48,252
Christina,

1104
00:30:48,987 --> 00:30:49,107
Helen: it?

1105
00:30:49,107 --> 00:30:50,547
was Carolyn leave at the White House.

1106
00:30:51,012 --> 00:30:51,522
Adam: just said,

1107
00:30:51,522 --> 00:30:51,712
no, he

1108
00:30:51,712 --> 00:30:51,757
didn't.

1109
00:30:51,807 --> 00:30:52,047
Helen: didn't.

1110
00:30:52,557 --> 00:30:55,197
she said actually he was talking about
Greenland, which is a land of ice,

1111
00:30:55,562 --> 00:30:56,702
You like, right.

1112
00:30:56,757 --> 00:30:56,997
Okay.

1113
00:30:56,997 --> 00:30:57,207
Yeah,

1114
00:30:57,207 --> 00:30:57,387
Andy: sure.

1115
00:30:57,392 --> 00:30:57,622
Another, the

1116
00:30:57,732 --> 00:30:59,667
Adam: stroke, you still
have ice three times.

1117
00:30:59,667 --> 00:31:02,007
It's right there on the video, but
it's just this extraordinary thing.

1118
00:31:02,007 --> 00:31:02,907
Now you can just say, no, it isn't.

1119
00:31:02,912 --> 00:31:03,092
No.

1120
00:31:03,132 --> 00:31:03,402
Helen: No,

1121
00:31:04,257 --> 00:31:04,467
Andy: we'll

1122
00:31:04,467 --> 00:31:06,927
have to wait and see how the
Board of Peace plays out.

1123
00:31:06,957 --> 00:31:07,827
Of course.

1124
00:31:08,397 --> 00:31:11,367
Can anyone think of another wise council?

1125
00:31:11,727 --> 00:31:15,237
Maybe a group of informed individuals
who might be able to solve the

1126
00:31:15,237 --> 00:31:16,317
world's problems better than the

1127
00:31:16,317 --> 00:31:16,557
Board of

1128
00:31:16,557 --> 00:31:17,277
Ian: Peace are, are,

1129
00:31:17,277 --> 00:31:19,107
we talking about the Jedi High Council?

1130
00:31:19,107 --> 00:31:19,197
Yep.

1131
00:31:19,902 --> 00:31:20,262
Yes, I

1132
00:31:20,262 --> 00:31:20,802
noticed that

1133
00:31:20,802 --> 00:31:22,482
as soon as I go on holiday,

1134
00:31:23,052 --> 00:31:23,232
a

1135
00:31:23,232 --> 00:31:26,532
lookalike appears in the
magazine of this very scene.

1136
00:31:27,012 --> 00:31:29,262
In which I appear to
have been cast as Yoda.

1137
00:31:29,802 --> 00:31:32,172
Adam: And one of us got to be Samuel
Lau Jackson, so I wonder if anyone

1138
00:31:32,172 --> 00:31:35,412
can work out who was editing letters
page last week in Ian's absence,

1139
00:31:35,607 --> 00:31:35,727
Ian: I

1140
00:31:35,727 --> 00:31:38,547
have to say the letter
from the supposed reader

1141
00:31:39,837 --> 00:31:40,347
a Mr.

1142
00:31:40,407 --> 00:31:40,947
Madam

1143
00:31:40,947 --> 00:31:41,547
McQueen

1144
00:31:43,047 --> 00:31:43,257
was

1145
00:31:43,257 --> 00:31:44,127
entirely

1146
00:31:44,127 --> 00:31:45,147
unconvincing.

1147
00:31:45,147 --> 00:31:45,357
It

1148
00:31:45,522 --> 00:31:46,242
Adam: genuinely

1149
00:31:46,242 --> 00:31:50,382
based on a comment on this
very, podcast, YouTube channel.

1150
00:31:50,832 --> 00:31:52,662
Helen: Can I just say that
Madam McQueen should be your

1151
00:31:52,747 --> 00:31:53,147
Adam: drag name.

1152
00:31:53,412 --> 00:31:53,532
Helen: That's

1153
00:31:53,892 --> 00:31:54,402
phenomenal.

1154
00:31:54,427 --> 00:31:54,717
Drag

1155
00:31:54,747 --> 00:31:55,037
name,

1156
00:31:57,899 --> 00:32:00,389
Andy: There's been a really
interesting story in the eye, this

1157
00:32:00,389 --> 00:32:04,559
latest issue of the eye, all about
the fact that times journalists

1158
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:09,569
are going to face some compulsory
retraining, coming up very soon.

1159
00:32:09,569 --> 00:32:13,979
They're going to be expected to attend
in person, at least one, quite lengthy

1160
00:32:13,979 --> 00:32:16,229
session about the proper use of ai.

1161
00:32:16,864 --> 00:32:20,344
And this is off the back of
some really funny things, which

1162
00:32:20,344 --> 00:32:21,694
happened at the times last year.

1163
00:32:22,294 --> 00:32:25,894
firstly, they, ran a, lengthy interview
with a cleaner at Buckingham Palace.

1164
00:32:26,344 --> 00:32:28,534
a lady called Anne Simmons, who'd
been there many years and had

1165
00:32:28,534 --> 00:32:29,644
lots of interesting things to say.

1166
00:32:29,824 --> 00:32:31,444
Who it turned out did not exist.

1167
00:32:31,804 --> 00:32:37,204
She, she had been, I think fabricated
by, a, tile company and a press release.

1168
00:32:37,594 --> 00:32:40,474
And so she, she was a, an AI person.

1169
00:32:41,114 --> 00:32:43,514
Adam: and secondly, there was a, she
was, I should say, photographed as well.

1170
00:32:43,514 --> 00:32:43,634
There

1171
00:32:43,634 --> 00:32:44,564
was a, photograph along

1172
00:32:44,594 --> 00:32:44,744
Helen: with

1173
00:32:44,744 --> 00:32:45,224
the interview.

1174
00:32:45,659 --> 00:32:47,384
Adam: of who, of this

1175
00:32:47,459 --> 00:32:48,029
Andy: non-existent

1176
00:32:48,029 --> 00:32:48,419
person

1177
00:32:48,494 --> 00:32:48,704
Helen: but an

1178
00:32:48,704 --> 00:32:49,904
AI generated image of

1179
00:32:49,919 --> 00:32:50,039
Andy: the

1180
00:32:50,054 --> 00:32:50,204
Adam: AI

1181
00:32:50,504 --> 00:32:50,684
person.

1182
00:32:50,684 --> 00:32:52,394
Yeah, A woman who looked a bit
like she might've been a cleaner at

1183
00:32:52,394 --> 00:32:53,564
Buckingham Palace sitting on a very nice

1184
00:32:53,579 --> 00:32:53,909
Andy: sofa.

1185
00:32:53,999 --> 00:32:54,179
Yeah.

1186
00:32:54,989 --> 00:32:57,179
and the other one was slightly
better known, it was the, Builder

1187
00:32:57,184 --> 00:33:01,139
de Blassio story, which I would
say is not really an AI screw up.

1188
00:33:01,349 --> 00:33:04,559
the, there was a hack who was asked to
get some quotes from the former mayor of

1189
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:09,839
New York builder Blassio, and wrote to
the wrong builder, Blassio, got, the wrong

1190
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:14,949
email address and wrote to wine merchant
from Long Island who then used chat GPT to

1191
00:33:14,949 --> 00:33:18,249
come up with a load of quotes, which were
sent back to the times and then printed.

1192
00:33:18,769 --> 00:33:19,329
Helen: I, dunno how

1193
00:33:19,539 --> 00:33:21,309
has that ever happened
to you and the other

1194
00:33:21,309 --> 00:33:21,549
Andy

1195
00:33:21,549 --> 00:33:21,849
Andy: Murray.

1196
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:22,899
Helen: No, it

1197
00:33:22,899 --> 00:33:23,829
hasn't because you should pitch.

1198
00:33:23,829 --> 00:33:23,949
you

1199
00:33:23,949 --> 00:33:24,099
should

1200
00:33:24,099 --> 00:33:24,609
start pitch

1201
00:33:24,639 --> 00:33:25,389
Ian: for more business.

1202
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:25,959
Helen: I

1203
00:33:25,959 --> 00:33:26,409
Andy: would like that.

1204
00:33:26,949 --> 00:33:29,289
Andy Burnham's name, his
middle name is Murray.

1205
00:33:29,289 --> 00:33:32,619
He's technically fully known
as Andrew Murray Burnham.

1206
00:33:33,219 --> 00:33:33,639
Adam: What's going on

1207
00:33:33,699 --> 00:33:33,939
Andy: there?

1208
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:34,719
you are everywhere.

1209
00:33:34,809 --> 00:33:36,339
Oh, yeah,

1210
00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:36,909
Ian: Anyway,

1211
00:33:38,829 --> 00:33:41,139
Andy: so the, times are doing
this, they're trying to u use

1212
00:33:41,139 --> 00:33:44,229
AI more effectively or at least
not get gold by AI stories.

1213
00:33:44,229 --> 00:33:45,069
And it's it's

1214
00:33:45,369 --> 00:33:50,589
a very, interesting, facet of the AI
story because it turns out journalists

1215
00:33:50,589 --> 00:33:54,339
are not automatically better at spotting
ai, slop and fabrications than the rest of

1216
00:33:54,339 --> 00:33:54,489
Ian: us.

1217
00:33:55,299 --> 00:33:56,169
particularly if,

1218
00:33:56,169 --> 00:33:58,569
there aren't many of them and
they don't have much time.

1219
00:33:58,629 --> 00:33:59,079
Yes.

1220
00:33:59,199 --> 00:34:00,099
Which presumably.

1221
00:34:00,609 --> 00:34:02,859
the answer to most of the
things is hire some human

1222
00:34:02,879 --> 00:34:03,629
Andy: beings, isn't it?

1223
00:34:04,049 --> 00:34:04,649
Pretty much.

1224
00:34:04,649 --> 00:34:05,189
Pretty much.

1225
00:34:05,189 --> 00:34:10,049
And, but this is a growing problem, and I,
in preparation for this sort of discussion

1226
00:34:10,049 --> 00:34:11,819
of like how AI is affecting the media.

1227
00:34:11,819 --> 00:34:14,669
I listened back to the chat from a
couple of years ago when we, had Matt

1228
00:34:14,669 --> 00:34:18,779
Muir on talking then about what this
amazing new thing called chat GPT

1229
00:34:18,779 --> 00:34:22,949
was, and any risks and opportunities
it might present, and basically

1230
00:34:22,949 --> 00:34:24,239
everything's got worse since then.

1231
00:34:24,329 --> 00:34:25,199
Is the shortcut?

1232
00:34:25,809 --> 00:34:27,444
Adam: Is the shortcut some
of the reason why it's got

1233
00:34:27,444 --> 00:34:29,664
worse is that it's got better.

1234
00:34:30,264 --> 00:34:32,964
the AI is improving hugely all the time.

1235
00:34:32,964 --> 00:34:34,314
So things are a lot more convincing.

1236
00:34:34,944 --> 00:34:36,204
you can now generate photos

1237
00:34:36,204 --> 00:34:36,504
of

1238
00:34:36,684 --> 00:34:39,804
supposed Buckingham palace cleaners who
don't have seven fingers on each hand,

1239
00:34:40,934 --> 00:34:41,349
Andy: or,

1240
00:34:41,574 --> 00:34:41,934
Adam: like that.

1241
00:34:41,934 --> 00:34:44,964
So it is getting more
difficult to spot this stuff.

1242
00:34:45,174 --> 00:34:45,834
Definitely.

1243
00:34:46,434 --> 00:34:48,474
but that is certainly being
taken advantage of, isn't it?

1244
00:34:48,474 --> 00:34:49,614
Have you seen the Press Gazette,

1245
00:34:50,319 --> 00:34:51,459
Andy: investigation into this?

1246
00:34:51,464 --> 00:34:51,644
Yeah.

1247
00:34:51,649 --> 00:34:51,909
Yeah.

1248
00:34:51,969 --> 00:34:52,179
Go on.

1249
00:34:52,529 --> 00:34:52,649
Ian: No,

1250
00:34:52,929 --> 00:34:53,009
Adam: You

1251
00:34:53,174 --> 00:34:54,074
say, So, pres gat.

1252
00:34:54,074 --> 00:34:58,544
I've got, Rob War who's a longstanding,
Tech journalist, does a lot of

1253
00:34:58,544 --> 00:35:01,634
stuff for the Den, also writes a
lot of their kind of like woo UFOs

1254
00:35:01,634 --> 00:35:03,224
and, witchcraft kind of stories,

1255
00:35:03,224 --> 00:35:04,484
for the dead, all that woo stuff.

1256
00:35:04,484 --> 00:35:04,694
So

1257
00:35:04,874 --> 00:35:08,624
he featured in a hack watch recently,
but, but, a good journalist nonetheless,

1258
00:35:08,774 --> 00:35:12,434
who's compiling list for Pres gat,
which is a trade Mag for journalists.

1259
00:35:13,004 --> 00:35:17,414
he came up with, 50 apparently
fake experts, who, which doesn't

1260
00:35:17,414 --> 00:35:20,084
sound that impressive, but 50
apparently fake experts who's.

1261
00:35:20,174 --> 00:35:22,904
comments have been quoted
more than a thousand times

1262
00:35:22,904 --> 00:35:24,194
in the media in recent years.

1263
00:35:24,434 --> 00:35:27,734
So these are completely people that there
is no evidence that they actually exist,

1264
00:35:27,884 --> 00:35:31,184
but who've been provided to journalists
on, various kind of websites and local

1265
00:35:31,184 --> 00:35:35,834
papers as well as national papers,
with sort of case studies of, I, this,

1266
00:35:35,834 --> 00:35:39,464
happened to me, or supposedly, their
academics, nutritionists, that kind of

1267
00:35:39,464 --> 00:35:43,484
thing, who've got ad advice for people,
none of whom appear to actually exist.

1268
00:35:44,229 --> 00:35:48,069
and obviously if you are a massively
overworked journalist on a local website

1269
00:35:48,279 --> 00:35:52,149
and you've gotta churn out 30, 40,
a hundred stories every day, and you

1270
00:35:52,149 --> 00:35:53,679
are handed a press release, which has.

1271
00:35:54,399 --> 00:35:57,099
A case study in it with someone
remind me, even a nice photo

1272
00:35:57,099 --> 00:35:57,999
of them that you can use.

1273
00:35:57,999 --> 00:36:01,389
Then you you don't have, you, you're not
gonna have the time to phone them up and

1274
00:36:01,629 --> 00:36:04,029
check, yourself that I still, God, that

1275
00:36:04,029 --> 00:36:04,209
your

1276
00:36:04,209 --> 00:36:06,279
first question would be,
do you actually exist?

1277
00:36:06,309 --> 00:36:06,489
Yeah.

1278
00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:06,589
Helen: So

1279
00:36:06,589 --> 00:36:06,799
the, what

1280
00:36:06,799 --> 00:36:07,699
the thing I think is

1281
00:36:07,699 --> 00:36:11,089
very worrying is that the guardrails
have come off and, not just in the media,

1282
00:36:11,089 --> 00:36:12,469
been in a number of different places.

1283
00:36:12,469 --> 00:36:13,189
So one

1284
00:36:13,189 --> 00:36:15,949
of the things that the West Midlands
police chief had to admit was that

1285
00:36:15,949 --> 00:36:20,269
his report on Tel Aviv Maccabee
and their fans included an invented

1286
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:23,269
match, essentially, which they
was deemed to have been hooligans.

1287
00:36:23,449 --> 00:36:25,309
That was an AI hallucination.

1288
00:36:25,689 --> 00:36:29,619
The Trump administration is all the
time pumping out fake AI bollocks on

1289
00:36:29,619 --> 00:36:31,779
Twitter and X. you just cannot now trust.

1290
00:36:31,959 --> 00:36:34,959
A government handout photo
not to have been altered.

1291
00:36:35,139 --> 00:36:35,199
Yeah.

1292
00:36:36,189 --> 00:36:38,739
I think that, I always think the
metaphor for it is a bit like,

1293
00:36:39,189 --> 00:36:42,339
essentially like there's been
pollution in the, information stream.

1294
00:36:42,339 --> 00:36:42,519
Right.

1295
00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:43,449
And it's very hard to get that

1296
00:36:43,459 --> 00:36:43,639
Andy: out

1297
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:44,359
once it's in there.

1298
00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:45,199
Yes.

1299
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:48,889
There was a report last
year about, the potential,

1300
00:36:48,889 --> 00:36:51,289
I, I think It's a problem.

1301
00:36:51,289 --> 00:36:55,009
It's not clear yet that it's a disastrous
problem for, let's say the Russian

1302
00:36:55,009 --> 00:36:59,599
government to, as it were, go upstream,
fill the web with slop text, pushing

1303
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:04,469
Pravda, talking points, and then
wait for those to be picked up by, AI

1304
00:37:04,469 --> 00:37:07,819
crawlers, bots that look around the web,
searching for new material to harvest.

1305
00:37:08,089 --> 00:37:08,554
I think it's not.

1306
00:37:09,134 --> 00:37:13,814
Disastrous problem because they
are trying to work out which

1307
00:37:13,814 --> 00:37:15,014
sources are most trustworthy

1308
00:37:15,494 --> 00:37:16,394
and to prioritize those.

1309
00:37:16,394 --> 00:37:16,814
But it can

1310
00:37:16,814 --> 00:37:17,024
still

1311
00:37:17,359 --> 00:37:17,479
Helen: be

1312
00:37:17,479 --> 00:37:17,839
a problem,

1313
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:20,269
they, the Russian government's also just
doing some really old fashioned stuff.

1314
00:37:20,269 --> 00:37:20,809
If you remember

1315
00:37:21,259 --> 00:37:21,709
last,

1316
00:37:21,769 --> 00:37:24,139
the year before last, they just
turned out to have been paying

1317
00:37:24,139 --> 00:37:27,529
a load of American culture war
influencers like Temple and Dave Rubin

1318
00:37:27,674 --> 00:37:28,004
Andy: through an

1319
00:37:28,009 --> 00:37:28,849
Helen: intermediary.

1320
00:37:28,939 --> 00:37:29,119
Yes.

1321
00:37:30,084 --> 00:37:33,144
in order, just basically, 'cause what
Russia wants is just people pumping out

1322
00:37:33,474 --> 00:37:35,754
most divisive possible cultural content

1323
00:37:35,934 --> 00:37:36,534
in America.

1324
00:37:36,774 --> 00:37:38,694
And they all said, oh,
we had no idea that this.

1325
00:37:38,934 --> 00:37:43,884
Extremely, attractive woman with,
a very thin c again, probably AI

1326
00:37:43,884 --> 00:37:46,884
generated CV that no, they just,
they took the money and didn't look.

1327
00:37:47,094 --> 00:37:48,324
Into, that's the problem.

1328
00:37:48,324 --> 00:37:50,934
The cost of generating bullshit
is now essentially zero.

1329
00:37:51,354 --> 00:37:54,054
And all that was stopping people
from filling the information

1330
00:37:54,054 --> 00:37:56,514
sphere with bullshit before was
the fact it was just too much work.

1331
00:37:56,784 --> 00:37:57,264
And now it isn't

1332
00:37:57,409 --> 00:37:58,099
Adam: much work at all.

1333
00:37:58,249 --> 00:38:01,129
Whereas the cost of getting journalists
to check that things aren't bullshit is

1334
00:38:01,129 --> 00:38:02,629
now prohibitive for an awful lot of news

1335
00:38:02,644 --> 00:38:03,379
Ian: organizations.

1336
00:38:03,406 --> 00:38:03,886
But this is

1337
00:38:03,886 --> 00:38:04,786
the third phase.

1338
00:38:04,906 --> 00:38:06,316
this is McQueen's

1339
00:38:06,316 --> 00:38:07,156
law of journalism.

1340
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:08,386
He started off trying

1341
00:38:08,386 --> 00:38:09,376
to break stories.

1342
00:38:09,466 --> 00:38:11,686
Then he spent the second half
of his career trying to say

1343
00:38:11,836 --> 00:38:12,976
These stories aren't true.

1344
00:38:13,366 --> 00:38:13,726
Phase

1345
00:38:13,726 --> 00:38:15,136
three seems to be no one

1346
00:38:15,141 --> 00:38:15,501
Adam: cares

1347
00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:15,756
Helen: Adam.

1348
00:38:15,846 --> 00:38:16,776
Yeah.

1349
00:38:16,816 --> 00:38:17,356
Ian: too many

1350
00:38:17,356 --> 00:38:17,926
of them,

1351
00:38:18,356 --> 00:38:19,106
Andy: get a life.

1352
00:38:19,886 --> 00:38:20,096
hit.

1353
00:38:20,636 --> 00:38:21,626
I'll, give you some numbers 'cause I

1354
00:38:21,626 --> 00:38:21,836
find

1355
00:38:21,836 --> 00:38:21,926
this

1356
00:38:21,926 --> 00:38:22,556
really interesting.

1357
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:26,811
So the number of adults in the UK who
say they've used tools like Chat PT

1358
00:38:26,811 --> 00:38:28,641
and Google Gemini to better understand

1359
00:38:28,641 --> 00:38:28,911
current

1360
00:38:28,911 --> 00:38:29,091
events.

1361
00:38:29,241 --> 00:38:29,421
Any

1362
00:38:29,421 --> 00:38:29,961
guesses?

1363
00:38:30,781 --> 00:38:31,411
Helen: 30%.

1364
00:38:31,831 --> 00:38:32,581
Andy: 47.

1365
00:38:33,241 --> 00:38:33,871
Quite high.

1366
00:38:34,951 --> 00:38:39,376
in terms of people in senior jobs in the
uk, senior management positions, it's 81.

1367
00:38:40,441 --> 00:38:40,501
Ian: Wow.

1368
00:38:40,696 --> 00:38:40,966
Andy: So it's

1369
00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:41,896
much higher.

1370
00:38:42,406 --> 00:38:42,886
However,

1371
00:38:42,886 --> 00:38:44,986
there, there are questions
of trust over it still.

1372
00:38:44,986 --> 00:38:49,546
So when, surveyed, 4% of people
said that they thought AI summaries

1373
00:38:49,546 --> 00:38:50,596
were the most trustworthy source.

1374
00:38:50,896 --> 00:38:54,736
That compares with 44% saying a news
website is the most trustworthy source.

1375
00:38:54,736 --> 00:38:55,906
So a factor of 10 difference.

1376
00:38:55,906 --> 00:38:58,696
And that there is still a lot
more trust associated with

1377
00:38:58,696 --> 00:38:58,936
Ian: news

1378
00:38:58,936 --> 00:38:59,566
websites.

1379
00:38:59,566 --> 00:38:59,686
I

1380
00:38:59,686 --> 00:39:01,726
went to see Jimmy Wales give a

1381
00:39:01,726 --> 00:39:04,066
speech, the founder of Wikipedia.

1382
00:39:04,343 --> 00:39:06,697
Who said, and he's very
impressive nowadays.

1383
00:39:06,697 --> 00:39:09,157
He said, when we started, we were a joke.

1384
00:39:09,937 --> 00:39:16,057
now we are a standard of extraordinary,
authority, in terms of fact.

1385
00:39:16,297 --> 00:39:18,487
And his basic pitches.

1386
00:39:18,967 --> 00:39:19,177
I

1387
00:39:19,177 --> 00:39:22,927
have human beings still as
moderators and a consensus

1388
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:23,587
of

1389
00:39:23,737 --> 00:39:26,917
diligent and altruistic human beings.

1390
00:39:26,917 --> 00:39:28,447
And he says, there still are some.

1391
00:39:28,747 --> 00:39:30,457
They're not working
obviously for the other,

1392
00:39:30,907 --> 00:39:32,797
tech pros, but they are working for him.

1393
00:39:33,547 --> 00:39:38,557
create, a version of truth which
is much nearer to truth than the

1394
00:39:38,557 --> 00:39:40,507
massed forces of everyone else.

1395
00:39:40,507 --> 00:39:44,797
So I think it is still possible and
that is still part of the job is to say.

1396
00:39:45,157 --> 00:39:45,547
this

1397
00:39:45,547 --> 00:39:46,207
stuff is not

1398
00:39:46,237 --> 00:39:46,747
nearly

1399
00:39:46,762 --> 00:39:47,406
Andy: good enough

1400
00:39:47,469 --> 00:39:47,919
Ian: we should

1401
00:39:48,054 --> 00:39:48,354
Andy: again.

1402
00:39:49,464 --> 00:39:51,354
Put the slightly positive case.

1403
00:39:51,384 --> 00:39:54,264
It's, AI is very useful for
things like data journalism.

1404
00:39:54,594 --> 00:39:58,494
it is very good at crunching together
large amounts of information if you

1405
00:39:58,494 --> 00:40:01,164
are well trained on it and you know
what you're trying to pull out of it.

1406
00:40:01,314 --> 00:40:05,484
there's, there are lots of positive
uses and lots of media organizations

1407
00:40:05,484 --> 00:40:08,244
are trying to use it effectively now.

1408
00:40:08,244 --> 00:40:10,824
Now, normally private eye covers the
cases where people are not using it

1409
00:40:10,824 --> 00:40:15,404
effectively, Reach, which I dunno
if it's you who've been, who's been

1410
00:40:15,414 --> 00:40:15,949
Adam: writing the stories

1411
00:40:15,949 --> 00:40:17,094
about, I have quite a lot of them.

1412
00:40:17,094 --> 00:40:17,784
yeah, yeah.

1413
00:40:18,144 --> 00:40:20,964
that, that is the other side of it is
the use of AI by the media as well.

1414
00:40:21,114 --> 00:40:23,064
reach have been absolutely open
about using this tool that they

1415
00:40:23,364 --> 00:40:25,314
slightly presently called
Guten after Gutenberg,

1416
00:40:25,314 --> 00:40:28,194
the inventor of the printing
press, which allows them to do

1417
00:40:28,194 --> 00:40:28,204
a.

1418
00:40:28,779 --> 00:40:30,099
multiple versions

1419
00:40:30,099 --> 00:40:32,499
of what is effectively the same story,
and then pump them out across their

1420
00:40:32,499 --> 00:40:34,569
network of, websites across the uk.

1421
00:40:34,569 --> 00:40:37,989
The most effective journalist at this,
I have to say, is a guy called James

1422
00:40:38,937 --> 00:40:39,207
Is he really?

1423
00:40:39,207 --> 00:40:40,067
It's my rule again

1424
00:40:40,137 --> 00:40:40,797
that you should never trust

1425
00:40:40,797 --> 00:40:40,947
a man.

1426
00:40:40,947 --> 00:40:41,847
with two first names

1427
00:40:42,327 --> 00:40:42,597
Andy: Andrew

1428
00:40:42,597 --> 00:40:43,107
Hunter Murray.

1429
00:40:43,229 --> 00:40:45,687
Adam: three first names,
he's on Birmingham Live.

1430
00:40:45,897 --> 00:40:49,047
he has been known to
churn out, up to a hundred

1431
00:40:49,137 --> 00:40:51,537
pieces under his byline every single day.

1432
00:40:51,777 --> 00:40:52,857
I had a look this morning.

1433
00:40:52,857 --> 00:40:57,717
As we're recording, just from today,
we've got, met office names, all of the 27

1434
00:40:57,717 --> 00:41:00,687
areas facing 17 hours of snow on Tuesday.

1435
00:41:00,957 --> 00:41:02,157
That was at 10 52

1436
00:41:02,847 --> 00:41:03,087
Met

1437
00:41:03,092 --> 00:41:07,092
office names all the UK areas set to
escape snow on Tuesday, full list 10

1438
00:41:07,092 --> 00:41:08,667
57. All Of

1439
00:41:08,667 --> 00:41:10,347
the Midlands towns set
for 17 hours of snow.

1440
00:41:10,347 --> 00:41:14,247
On Tuesday, full list, 1101 UK
Snow bomb brought forward and

1441
00:41:14,247 --> 00:41:15,822
to new date as West Weinland's.

1442
00:41:15,827 --> 00:41:16,887
verdict confirmed.

1443
00:41:17,007 --> 00:41:20,607
1128 Met off his names all of
the UK areas who have to pack

1444
00:41:20,607 --> 00:41:22,137
emergency kit before Tuesday.

1445
00:41:22,137 --> 00:41:23,067
Full list.

1446
00:41:23,487 --> 00:41:24,627
Spoiler alert on that one.

1447
00:41:25,047 --> 00:41:26,342
You don't have to back an emergency

1448
00:41:26,507 --> 00:41:26,727
Helen: kit.

1449
00:41:27,187 --> 00:41:30,132
But the thing that's interesting when you
read out all of those headlines is those

1450
00:41:30,132 --> 00:41:32,442
headlines are written for Google, like

1451
00:41:32,442 --> 00:41:32,712
jam

1452
00:41:32,727 --> 00:41:32,937
Adam: full of

1453
00:41:33,177 --> 00:41:33,387
a hundred

1454
00:41:33,702 --> 00:41:34,422
Helen: engine keywords.

1455
00:41:34,602 --> 00:41:36,762
So you've essentially got
robots writing copy for

1456
00:41:36,792 --> 00:41:38,022
Andy: robots for other robots

1457
00:41:38,022 --> 00:41:40,152
with a brief intermediary
of a human having to

1458
00:41:40,662 --> 00:41:41,472
human's the thin

1459
00:41:41,472 --> 00:41:41,892
Helen: paste

1460
00:41:41,892 --> 00:41:42,522
in the middle of the sand.

1461
00:41:43,347 --> 00:41:46,242
But the other thing is that most
news organizations are preparing

1462
00:41:46,242 --> 00:41:49,182
for Google search to deliver them
no traffic by the end of this year.

1463
00:41:49,332 --> 00:41:49,422
Yeah.

1464
00:41:49,452 --> 00:41:52,502
Because Google now puts in
a Google Gemini AI Things.

1465
00:41:53,102 --> 00:41:55,952
there's always been this tension
with, in Australia there's been cases

1466
00:41:55,952 --> 00:41:57,932
about Google news paying journalists.

1467
00:41:57,962 --> 00:42:00,392
'cause essentially it's like
using, harvesting their content

1468
00:42:00,392 --> 00:42:01,382
and putting their headlines.

1469
00:42:01,622 --> 00:42:04,802
Now the thing is that Google will
now just, essentially has just

1470
00:42:04,802 --> 00:42:08,762
cut off that spigot of directing
anybody to news, websites.

1471
00:42:08,762 --> 00:42:10,412
It would rather them just see a little

1472
00:42:10,737 --> 00:42:11,757
Andy: at the top of their Google result.

1473
00:42:11,907 --> 00:42:15,117
And this, is where you get
the argument about what media

1474
00:42:15,117 --> 00:42:17,067
organizations should do about that.

1475
00:42:17,127 --> 00:42:22,317
So there is a case that I've seen made
that, for example, rather than, the

1476
00:42:22,317 --> 00:42:24,657
Guardian striking a deal with open ai.

1477
00:42:25,047 --> 00:42:28,077
So that OpenAI can inhale
all the Guardian's archive,

1478
00:42:28,077 --> 00:42:29,937
which, good sourced stuff.

1479
00:42:29,997 --> 00:42:31,257
Few typos, no problem.

1480
00:42:31,497 --> 00:42:36,687
But basically, OpenAI is getting a huge
new source of, decent news in exchange

1481
00:42:36,687 --> 00:42:38,157
for a financial deal with OpenAI.

1482
00:42:38,577 --> 00:42:41,097
That is a way that the
power is handed to open ai.

1483
00:42:41,487 --> 00:42:43,377
the, consumer is getting
their news from OpenAI.

1484
00:42:43,377 --> 00:42:45,057
It happens to come
originally from The Guardian.

1485
00:42:45,567 --> 00:42:49,287
What if instead of that, let's
say the B, B, C or whoever.

1486
00:42:49,702 --> 00:42:53,722
Had their own AI engine, which can
produce results based on everything

1487
00:42:53,722 --> 00:42:57,322
the B, the BBC has produced
over the last hundred odd years.

1488
00:42:57,862 --> 00:43:00,232
that is a, that's a way that AI could

1489
00:43:00,237 --> 00:43:00,717
Ian: be used

1490
00:43:00,862 --> 00:43:04,582
Andy: deliver trustworthy,
reliable results to people

1491
00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:04,882
who

1492
00:43:05,022 --> 00:43:05,232
Helen: want

1493
00:43:05,232 --> 00:43:05,412
to know

1494
00:43:05,412 --> 00:43:05,922
what they're getting.

1495
00:43:06,492 --> 00:43:08,802
I think more people are gonna do
essentially a version of the like

1496
00:43:08,802 --> 00:43:10,602
longstanding private eye gambit, right?

1497
00:43:10,602 --> 00:43:13,452
Which is you can only consume
our content on our source.

1498
00:43:13,842 --> 00:43:14,052
Like

1499
00:43:14,052 --> 00:43:14,802
we call it the

1500
00:43:14,802 --> 00:43:15,372
magazine,

1501
00:43:15,912 --> 00:43:19,152
but no, like lots of people you know, are
saying that come to our app, you know,

1502
00:43:19,302 --> 00:43:22,437
that, trying to keep you on
their particular platform.

1503
00:43:22,557 --> 00:43:25,257
And the other thing that delivers
an absolute boatload of traffic is

1504
00:43:25,257 --> 00:43:27,627
Apple News, which is essentially
what everybody's been trying

1505
00:43:27,627 --> 00:43:30,207
to make work forever, which is
the Micropayment system, right?

1506
00:43:30,207 --> 00:43:30,927
You play a flat

1507
00:43:30,927 --> 00:43:31,557
fee and then you get

1508
00:43:31,557 --> 00:43:33,087
access to loads and loads of places.

1509
00:43:33,447 --> 00:43:36,507
But I think there is a real, there's a
real divergence between people who've

1510
00:43:36,507 --> 00:43:40,317
decided to go, we are worth paying for
and you're gonna have to pay for us.

1511
00:43:40,587 --> 00:43:40,887
And Like

1512
00:43:40,887 --> 00:43:41,007
you

1513
00:43:41,007 --> 00:43:43,017
say, the reaches of the
world who've gone pile 'em

1514
00:43:43,017 --> 00:43:43,857
Adam: high, sell 'em cheap,

1515
00:43:43,977 --> 00:43:44,157
let's

1516
00:43:44,157 --> 00:43:44,577
not make

1517
00:43:44,592 --> 00:43:45,432
Helen: anything worth paying

1518
00:43:45,432 --> 00:43:45,552
for.

1519
00:43:45,552 --> 00:43:46,122
Yeah.

1520
00:43:46,122 --> 00:43:46,992
And let's run this

1521
00:43:47,232 --> 00:43:49,662
business down until, until it

1522
00:43:49,662 --> 00:43:50,202
goes under.

1523
00:43:50,202 --> 00:43:51,042
'cause there's just not enough

1524
00:43:51,072 --> 00:43:51,372
Ian: money

1525
00:43:51,372 --> 00:43:51,852
left in anymore.

1526
00:43:52,122 --> 00:43:58,002
But I did read a, very good analysis,
of the trajectory of, nearly all

1527
00:43:58,002 --> 00:44:00,072
organizations and AI is following.

1528
00:44:00,072 --> 00:44:02,802
them, in that it's not making any money.

1529
00:44:02,802 --> 00:44:04,032
No one's making any money.

1530
00:44:04,122 --> 00:44:05,622
It costs far too much money,

1531
00:44:06,402 --> 00:44:07,392
to do videos.

1532
00:44:07,397 --> 00:44:13,002
There aren't enough deserts full of
data centers, being sprayed by empty

1533
00:44:13,002 --> 00:44:15,132
reservoirs to actually finance this.

1534
00:44:15,282 --> 00:44:16,332
So what do they do?

1535
00:44:16,834 --> 00:44:17,824
There are two ways out.

1536
00:44:17,824 --> 00:44:20,314
The first way is advertising,
which they said they wouldn't do,

1537
00:44:20,494 --> 00:44:21,694
which they're now considering.

1538
00:44:21,844 --> 00:44:22,594
And the second way is

1539
00:44:22,594 --> 00:44:22,984
porn.

1540
00:44:24,544 --> 00:44:26,884
which again, this was meant to be ai.

1541
00:44:26,884 --> 00:44:27,394
It was meant to be.

1542
00:44:28,864 --> 00:44:32,374
for, the good of humankind and all
those really reliable tech bros

1543
00:44:32,374 --> 00:44:35,254
sitting around telling each other, they
were doing this for the public good.

1544
00:44:36,064 --> 00:44:39,004
the public good seems to be
taking money from other commercial

1545
00:44:39,004 --> 00:44:40,924
enterprises and, running porn.

1546
00:44:41,524 --> 00:44:43,084
So that's, a

1547
00:44:43,084 --> 00:44:44,074
positive future.

1548
00:44:44,209 --> 00:44:44,839
Andy: Progress.

1549
00:44:44,989 --> 00:44:45,259
Yep.

1550
00:44:46,534 --> 00:44:46,684
Adam: It's

1551
00:44:47,474 --> 00:44:48,109
Andy: But for Elon

1552
00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:48,439
Adam: Mask,

1553
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:54,349
Andy: That's a suitably
depressing note to end on.

1554
00:44:54,409 --> 00:44:54,559
Yeah.

1555
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:54,709
Sorry.

1556
00:44:55,534 --> 00:44:55,864
Helen: No,

1557
00:44:55,954 --> 00:44:57,124
You tried to be upbeat for

1558
00:44:57,124 --> 00:44:57,184
a

1559
00:44:57,199 --> 00:44:57,529
Andy: brief

1560
00:44:57,619 --> 00:44:58,429
flicker of time.

1561
00:44:58,504 --> 00:44:58,834
Ian: I know.

1562
00:44:58,955 --> 00:45:00,935
Andy: that's it for
this episode of page 94.

1563
00:45:01,145 --> 00:45:02,255
thank you so much for listening.

1564
00:45:02,255 --> 00:45:05,675
If you would like to get hold of
proper human produced journalism,

1565
00:45:05,675 --> 00:45:07,115
it's available in the magazine.

1566
00:45:07,115 --> 00:45:12,005
It's available on Newstands, and
it's available@privatehypheni.co uk.

1567
00:45:12,185 --> 00:45:14,795
There are subscriptions available
for very reasonable prices.

1568
00:45:15,065 --> 00:45:17,585
We'll be back again in a
fortnight with another of these.

1569
00:45:17,945 --> 00:45:20,645
until then, there's any time to say
thank you once again for listening.

1570
00:45:20,645 --> 00:45:21,310
And thank you to Matt Hill.

1571
00:45:21,805 --> 00:45:22,705
Of Rethink audio

1572
00:45:22,850 --> 00:45:23,030
Helen: for

1573
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:23,450
Ian: producing.

1574
00:45:23,635 --> 00:45:23,815
Andy: Bye

1575
00:45:23,815 --> 00:45:23,935
for

1576
00:45:23,945 --> 00:45:24,125
Adam: now.