Which is less stressful being on ops.

Yeah.

Um, ops with UK SF ops.

Yeah.

When stuff goes wrong, that's when you really see him step up and

that's when he sort of step up.

Almost that ministry mindset.

Isn, we're out there to kid be killed.

Worse happens.

Yeah.

That's unfortunate when we lost Chuck.

Guys, welcome back to another installment of the Combat Fuel podcast.

Today we are joined by former Royal Marine UKSF and owner of

Contact Coffee, Luke Dalton.

Welcome Luke.

Thank you for your service.

Um, please introduce yourself.

Uh, I think you've given me the best one I've ever had, so I think

I'll leave it at that because I'll just say I'm Luke Dolton from, but

yeah, I'll, uh, I'll go with yours.

Awesome.

Um, where did life start for you then?

Have you always been qua?

I have, yeah.

Born and bred Midlands.

Um, yeah, fairly sort of normal upbringing.

I've been nothing crazy.

Uh, good family life, uh, played a lot of sport.

Uh, started playing hockey when I was about six.

Sort of went all the way up to sort of, uh, 21 international level.

So yeah, sort of always into fitness.

Um, and then didn't really have much direction after that.

Uh, sort of leaving school, fell into reclaim sort of the trades

and just sort of going around being a generic sort of 19 yard old lad

going out, girls getting in trouble.

Um, nothing overly bad, but yeah, just didn't really have

any sort of direction really.

Yeah.

Nice.

It is quite, quite common for a lot of lads that, that

join the military, isn't it?

Uh, not really having a lot of direction, but kind of different in the way that.

Parents still together?

No, no drama.

Yeah, at home.

So they, they split up when I was 16 and again, probably get on stuff like

this later, but at the time, sort of 16 sort of semi understood relationships.

It wasn't really what probably from what, what the time

really a massive effect on me.

Um, but then that's probably did pave the way.

I didn't really have a sort of stable home going through sort of 17, 18, 19

year olds where that's probably the most important time you need, granted

you need that when you're growing up.

Well, I think you make a lot of wrong decisions and you sort of in

that midst of girls, alcohol, drugs sort of, do you know what I mean?

Those sort of areas.

That's probably where I did need a little bit grounding, but I was pretty much

on my own from leaving there, so I sort of like semi moved out at my own place

between sort of 17, 18 year olds old.

So recipe for disaster could say, but real quick as well.

Um, yeah, to answer your question, yeah, fairly stable.

Nice at this point when you're sort of going out, girls

partying, just living your life.

Yeah.

Was there any aspirations to join the, the military back then?

Nothing really at all.

Like I said, I was, I was really into sports.

I was into, uh, played a lot of hockey into my fitness.

Um, but we, we've hockey as well.

It was quite, quite similar to rugby, sort of rugby mentality.

You sort of like playing down for football, but he was

quite a gentleman's sport.

It was always, you'd have a good scrap on the pitch, but you'd be sitting in

and amongst the opposite opposition team.

A lot of the clientele that used to play it was obviously a bit more like

sort of private schools and stuff.

I was sort of the lower end of that scale being just from panic, even though

I didn't have a bad, bad up thinking, but was surrounded by that sort of like

clientele and those sort of people.

So sort of, I had quite a good, good surrounding of people as I was growing up.

So I, I had a different lifestyle to the average lads that I was sort of hanging

around with, sort of away from the sport.

And you reached, you say England level?

Yeah, so got two under 20, ones under 20 threes international.

So I played the highest level you can in hockey.

So essentially equivalent to premiership football, but in hockey

must been like semi professional sport.

Didn't really mean anything.

Still, still had to still have to play at the end of end of the

game on a Sunday sort of thing.

But yeah, that's the sort of level I got to and so I had that,

that was my grounding really.

That was, that was my, um, the one thing that probably kept

me on the straight and narrow.

I think if I didn't really have hockey and then in circles that

was sort of in, it could've easily gone, gone west sort of thing.

It just led onto the decision down badly.

I joined the military.

Yeah.

Wicked.

And any role models while you were growing up?

Dad, someone in hockey, to be fair, yeah, he probably led me onto that.

I'm not saying don't get on with my dad, but he was sort of

my dad at the end of the day.

And I don't mean that in a sort of downplay way or Yeah,

I suppose I didn't really.

I haven't even asked that question, but I don't really have

any heroes or people like that.

I think, I think it might be the hockey one, to be fair.

There was, 'cause I grew up at such a young age was I of the best clubs in the

uk, all the international level players were there, like nearly every single, um,

playing first team sort of GB or England.

So I, I looked up to them throughout my whole sort of upbringing really.

So yeah, I suppose you could say sort of a lot of hockey players

that I sort of looked up to.

And like I said, they were good people, uh, and good moral.

So yeah, I suppose, I suppose you're right, yeah, you guys world driven

individuals as well to hundred percent to be at that, that level

and especially 'cause of it being semiprofessional, there wasn't ridiculous

wages pushing them that sort of way.

So Yeah, I suppose.

Right.

So they had to be very well driven.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

But you were, before anything else happened in your

career, it was raw Marines.

Was that your first look at the military or had you looked at any other branches?

Army, RAF?

Well, so yeah, so looking back, um.

Again, when all this sort of happened, I left school and sort

of bounced between jobs and sort of didn't really know what I was doing.

Uh, I looked at the Army, um, I went down, um, went down to

Litchfield, uh, and then got turned away within the first hour or two.

'cause I said I was colorblind, so I was like, right, okay, that's it.

That's, that's that, that's that done.

Um, and yeah, sort of that, just put that to bed.

Didn't really know what I was doing going down there anyway.

And I think at the time it was sort of like, sort of like the

naughty kids and the bad lesbian went to the army sort of thing.

So my parents and I weren't really sure keen on what I was doing.

I didn't really know what I was doing either.

Didn't even know what I was doing.

Uh, and then fast forward sort of two, two years later, um, again,

we're sort of like sort of party and I was still playing hockey, but

it was going one way or the other.

And I, I knew that wasn't me realistically.

Um, and I wanted to join a sort of a service.

I was sort of semi looking a lot police, fire.

And I had, um, I had an advert for the Navy.

And I was like, okay, like that sounds all right.

And I just thought I'll just, all I need to do is do fitness and

stuff, so I'll just join the Navy and just carry stuff around boats.

Like I literally, I, I know, knew nothing about the military, like at all.

No military ties whatsoever.

I've gone into the, the Afco, I've got chatting to the bloke in there

and said, I'm looking at joining Navy.

Sort of looked me up and down and asked me what I did, and he was

like, have you fought the V Marins?

And I was thinking, now that's like movie stars.

It's sort of like terminated, do you know what I mean?

Like six foot tall, like three foot wide sort of bloke.

Like that's the, the image I had in my head.

V Marines, uh, obviously had a chat and he said like, he seemed to be

a fit, like jump on his Pullup bar.

I was like, okay.

Like she just walked in off the street and just had me banging, pull up.

So, and he just went right alert, I'll get you on, um, sort of aptitude thing.

And yeah, before that I came home with the booklet, like sort of

went, my mom showed my mom this, and she was like, are you fucking mad?

I was like, I dunno, cheers, mark.

I don't even know what happened, but the only thing I was looking at

was like the fitness test because I was like, I can fucking do that.

I can do that.

Yeah.

Didn't really think of the bigger picture.

I didn't really know what they did.

Like I knew nothing about the military.

And yeah, that's, that's where my And how old were you then?

This is around 20 years old, so yeah, about 20, 21.

So yeah, sort of like very, sort of looking back now, quite a delicate

age, I think, because that's where you can really like, essentially fuck your

life up or make some good decisions.

And you know, like nine 11 had happened 10 years previous to this.

Yeah.

Uh, obviously we were kids when it happened.

Yeah.

Uh, the war on terror, Iraq, the invasion of Iraq.

The Iraq war, um, Herrick was, was going on at this point as

well, like the, the early years.

It was all over the news.

Yeah.

Was any of that like a draw to you to be like, I want to go and fight, I want

to go and, no, I've been totally honest.

No.

Obviously I remember I was, on that day I was riding my bike.

I was actually in a sweet shop that was in a sweet shop and I remember seeing it on

like a little TV behind on the sweet shop.

Yeah, it was pretty much just, it was, it was just sort of noise to me.

Then, like I said, all I wanted to do was like play hockey as a young kid.

Um, so yeah, it didn't really, didn't really take like,

sort of interest me at all.

Although there was, there was a lad I went to school with and

his brother was in the Army.

I remember sleeping over at there.

I swimming, we sort like year 11, you know what I mean?

Like a Friday night I had a few cans of beer from his mom and dad and stuff.

And it was always on the news, wasn't it?

There was a lot like live stream and stuff and, and I remember watching it because

his brother was in the Army and that was the only thing I really knew about it.

Um, but yeah, really just never really looked at the military at all.

So it's more, yeah, fair to say.

It was just, it's a job to do.

They do fiz.

I don't wanna get paid to do fiz.

Exactly.

That, exactly that the, the brick claim wasn't going that well.

We'd hit recession.

I was chasing money.

I mean, as a 20-year-old, 21-year-old lad, like my mates

were earning in four or 500 quid.

I was only in like two, 300 quid.

So it was, I needed a job.

I wanted to, I knew I wasn't the type of person that was potentially moving into.

So, yeah, it was just like, fuck it, I'll do it.

So it's you, you've gone away, you, you're 21 years old.

Yeah.

You've passed your, your selection to join the Royal Marines.

Yeah.

You've turned up at Limon train station, I imagine.

Yeah, week one.

Day one.

Yeah.

But I brush, yeah.

Can you remember those feelings that we're going through, like you've rocked up here?

Like this is like, this is the military, like Yeah.

Welcome.

Yeah.

This is it.

I think, yeah.

As, as a 21-year-old lad and stuff, you sort of chest sat a little bit, you got a

bit of swagger, do you know what I mean?

Like you said, the girls and stuff, and everyone thinks

of the bee's knees, and Yeah.

As soon as you get off that train, you just fucking out.

You're like your little boy again.

You know?

I mean, the nerves are going for you like somewhere else.

You, you, I mean, you're checking the other lads out on the train and stuff.

Nervous energy, imposter syndrome, sort of like, what the fuck am I doing here?

I'm not gonna get off this train, sort of thing.

And then, yeah, like I said, you don't really, the minute you

step off that train, then rubbing headlights and before you know it's.

The last day of week 32.

You sort of, any, any regret when you, at any point through training?

Were you like, this just isn't for me?

Was your character No.

To tested?

No.

Were pretty plain sailing.

Yeah.

It was weird because I, I actually really like, enjoyed it.

I think it was a challenge and again, I, I still think going through that, I

still didn't know about the military.

Like I, when I was in Ton, I was going through it, I was literally

just like a, a blank canvas.

I knew nothing about it.

I think that was probably good.

Really?

'cause they really molded me from nothing.

I, I, I didn't know anyone in the military.

I'd never spoken to anybody.

Um, I literally had to learn everything from week one, day one.

So it was all, it was new to me.

It was a bit, it was exciting.

So, I mean, before I was like brick layer, just sort of going

for the motions, going to the same pub every Friday, every Saturday.

Do you know what I mean?

It was just sort of mega routine.

Um.

It was all new.

It was exciting.

Like I said, the fitness element, it was, it was a test.

Like I really enjoyed the fitness side of it.

I saw everything as a fitness test.

Yeah.

And then I probably realistically didn't think right at the end

of this, I'm potentially gonna go here and stuff like that.

But yeah, I think I was, after that first three, four months, I

was like, maybe I sort of asked myself like, is this what you want?

But yeah, like I said, I enjoy being around the lads from that sort of, that

sport mentality, the team mentality.

Yeah, just I was, I was content with my decision.

Definitely.

Brilliant stuff.

Was there any, like, highlights in training where you're like,

that, that really stood out?

It it molded you as a person?

Just the fitness.

Yeah.

Like I said, it was more fitness driven for me.

So I, I always aspired to be the best at the fitness stuff because that

was always my, my sort of my point.

You, you passed that as an original?

Yeah, I stayed in the same troop.

Um, and yeah, like I said, just tried to get, be the best as I

could at all the fitness tests.

So I think when everyone goes through it, they say training's

hard and stuff, and then.

I'd always be like, fuck know, like that session was hard.

And some people are like, yeah, but you are the fitness lad.

It's like, yeah, that's fine, but I'm doing my best.

Do you know what I mean?

You could coast it.

And so that was easy, but I always wanted to do my best on it.

Uh, so yeah, so this whole fitness element, the sort of the first nine

meet gym phase that used to be I, if it's still the same now, obviously

bottom field is like a new thing for me as well, new challenge.

But yeah, I, I just enjoyed the whole whole side of it.

Obviously it's times when it's piss like weather, like

this, like this is a bit shit.

But yeah, in, in general it was, I was around the lads and I, I couldn't really

get my head van that I was getting paid for it as well because I'd been such,

like, especially when you're a trade, like you've got graft and if you're

not moving or doing anything for like a minute, you're not getting paid.

You're not laying a brick, you're not getting paid like

12 people per brick and stuff.

So for me it was like sort of like the half days you sat in the classroom.

So I was like, fucking lads are getting paid for this.

I think that that was the difference in training from lads are got life experience

and done a bit on the outside compared to lads that sort of like straight out.

Think just by having that sort of three years of making mistakes, having a,

a real job, so to speak, um, living in the real world like really helps.

I think that's what you get the core as well.

You're get, get an older sort of person joining naturally you get a sort

of higher caliber of bloke as well.

Um, I think that helps.

Definitely.

And that, so you said fizz wasn't, dare I say, not that challenge, but

you always put your best in Yeah.

That final 30 miler then how was that?

You been 30 miler?

It was just, I'm not gonna play it down, but you'd done all that.

30 miler was just like, it's just a long walk, basically.

Yeah.

But like everyone's what mean?

Yeah.

So it's like you're gonna do it, you know what I mean?

And being realistic compared to all the other tests and stuff, it's like you're

gonna do 30 more when you break it down.

You compare it to all the other exercises and stuff.

It's like.

I didn't see that as one of the harder ones.

Like, you know what I mean?

The, the sort of like the 10 day exercise.

Nine nine day exercises.

Yeah.

They're the graft, you know what I mean?

Like just walking up.

Yeah.

Few hours haven't you haven't got a second a knee, you I haven't gotta look anywhere.

Yeah, you literally gotta put a bag on chat to your mates and just fucking walk

and you know, it's at the end of it.

Do you know what I mean?

That's just striving yourself.

Did anybody drop out?

Um, I don't think so, no.

Not that I can remember.

No, we, we were pretty solid troop to be fair.

Especially where we finished.

No, I don't think we did.

And how many made it from start of training to the end as an original?

I think it's about 60 that's starting the troop from the court.

Um, I dunno man, I wanna say 24, 26 maybe.

I'm not sure.

So it's, you got an attrition mate Yeah.

Of over 50%.

Yeah, it might have be even more than that, but yeah, we had,

we had a really solid truth.

There's some really, really good blokes in there.

Really, really good.

So we've, did you get fit recruit?

I did.

Yeah.

Nice, nice.

Yeah.

Well, that's what I wanted.

So that was my aim.

So it wasn't like, yeah, well I get to the end, get a green lid.

I was like, oh, I wanna win that fitness test on the Yeah.

So you weren't like, R rings are renowned for their, their fitness.

Yeah.

So you weren't just a fit bloke that passed royal winning trend.

You were the fittest guy to pass out your, your troop.

Yeah, I was, yeah.

Raw, which is, yeah.

But that was, that was my aim.

I got, I got on quite well as well as you can with like the PTI

pretty big accolade that and Yeah.

Sets you up well for Exactly, yeah.

I mean, I was, I was fit before I joined.

I'm not saying that's why, but like I had a good base level fitness

and some lads literally like, I'm gonna join the royal meetings.

I'm gonna start going to the gym for a month before.

Yeah.

I had, I had a good base level, really sterling mindset to Yeah.

To crack on and, and achieve it.

Yeah, exactly.

If we passed out training 32 weeks at limestone.

Yep.

And a lot of people may look at it and think, oh, that

training's done, that's finished.

Yeah.

Cheers.

Now it's just to your unit and, and done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's then really is the.

Start of your career, isn't it?

Yeah.

That's, that's where you been done.

And that, that's where, where the real graph now starts, isn't it?

Yeah.

So where did you go after Ton?

Uh, so luckily I went straight to commando unit, so 40, uh, down in Taunton.

Um, I actually, so I got, during my training, I got got pinged by one of

the PTOs because of my hockey passed.

So obviously because of the level I played, um, there's a few rings

in the, the PTIs that played sort of Navy and one marine level.

So me coming into the court at that level of hockey was like, really, really good.

So they were just fucking eyeing me the whole way.

And they're literally saying like, the minute you pass out, you are

fucking, you're playing for us.

And he died me up and said like, there's a game at the weekend.

So we passed that on like the Thursday.

Um, and there was a na, there was a Navy hockey game on a Monday and he was

like, you fucking playing in that game.

So like, so my first job as a, um, as after being officially

a boot neck was playing hockey.

So I turned up to the unit sort of two days late.

So I've gone down to Portsmouth, played hockey again.

I was thinking, I was like, fuck man, I'm getting paid for this.

This is fucking class.

And I was like, oh, maybe I could just do this.

Like, I didn't know about what the work I actually had to do.

So yeah, I've walked into the unit about two, three days late and gone and

sort of done my joint, joint routine.

And some blokes gone like, why the fuck, why don't you turn

up with everyone on Monday?

I was like, I was, was playing, playing hockey, fucking typical like sergeant

boot neck, you know what I mean?

Tattoos ball literally looked up at me.

He was like, you fucking what?

And I was like, oh my God.

I felt worse then than they did getting off the train.

I was just like, did, did he know that you were playing for the chord?

Did you think you'd just bit off one?

This is what it's fucking about.

Do you know what I mean?

I was just like, fuck, you know, I've had a area, but maybe I'm

not gonna be a tracksuit soldier.

Yeah.

So it was a bit of a waking call.

I was sort of two days on the back foot straight away.

I was like, this is gonna be bad.

Was that like a wake, a wake up call?

Like the raw Marines is a Yeah.

It's not gonna be plain sailing, you know?

Exactly, yeah.

Because there's work to be done.

There's a mindset to to live by.

Yeah.

Yeah, just a bit.

Did you do anything straight away from trading?

So you, you gone to 40 commando.

Yep.

Were you still getting to play hockey or was it straight into

actual soldiering and doing stuff?

So I managed to keep my foot in the door with stuff like that.

Again, it was hard to convince, uh, sort of sergeant managers and stuff that

what you're gonna go and play hockey on Tuesday, Wednesday while the lads

are doing in fucking weapon drills.

But I had like a First Sea Lord on my side in the Navy.

So yeah, I'd get the odd phone call, but obviously that went

down like a fucking lead balloon.

Like I'm gonna go tell the First Sea Lord and you get me to play hockey.

But yeah, so I managed to play it, but again, first couple months sort

of add fairly good relationship.

I think it's not stripers and everyone sort of realize who's who, who's

sort of a decent lad and whatever.

So yeah, I sort of, I used to get away with disappearing every now and

then playing with hockey and stuff.

But, um, yeah, so not long after I joined is all that stuff sort of happened in

Libya, not the Colonel Gaddafi stuff.

Yeah.

Um, so we were, we were due to go out on, um.

An exercise on ship.

Can't remember alligator, no alligator, can't remember what it's called now.

Um, we were due to go out on that.

Um, but then with all this stuff kicking off, they basically

like moved the date forward.

So obviously Dr. Holiday, the misses and stuff like that,

oh, we're gonna have leave.

It's, it's fine.

It's, it's all gonna be good.

Then they're again, yeah, with that exercise has been brought

forward to like next week.

Yeah, so that was my first like wake up call of sort of, okay, this

stuff happens and it happens quick, and we got sort of going and stuff.

So, yeah.

So anyway, we went onto that, um, say tour of exercise and it was just a

bit more of a show of force as well.

So yeah, that ended up being sort of three, four month, um, cruise basically.

But yeah, I learned, learned a lot on that.

Learned.

Say to be boot neck.

There's a lot more to it than that.

But yeah, learn the, uh, learn the ropes quite a lot on that tour, being

surrounded by quite a few, um, strong people who'd been in previous, uh,

before, like earlier tours and stuff.

So yeah, really got to know the lads and yeah, I think that's

where the tro cohesion come from.

That's where it came like, okay, this is my job now.

That, that's where, that like military brotherhood.

Yeah, definitely first hit you then, right?

Yeah.

Especially in on ship as well.

Like, you've got, you like mushrooms, you just literally

living on top of each other.

I mean the troop 32 in the troop, and you are living in a room like

what the size of this place you can touch the ceiling, like you're

literally living on top of each other.

So you get to know each other quick.

You learn to adapt, you learn to just sort of not be jack and work for each other.

So yeah, you learn, you learn hard and fast.

And how, how was it on a ship being with.

Sailors compared to raw Marines.

Yeah.

Is there a bit of a divide there?

There is, but I think it's, they do their job.

We do as, but yeah, it's, uh, so there's a few ship we on some like

IFA ships, which are like sort of a bit weird, like half city ships.

Um, I dunno much about the Navy, so I can't really talk too much

'cause I sound like fucking solid.

Uh, and then you go in like a proper Navy ship and yeah,

that's a fucking eye opener.

They're doing all their navy stuff, winning in about tooting whistles,

fucking doing loads of mad shit.

And we're just like, we'll just fucking get as low as you can in the boat.

Yeah.

Boat ship.

They literally stick you at the very, very bottom.

So you literally at the bottom of the ship and it's like a dawn as like a corridor.

That's where all the boot necks are.

Yeah.

So you've got like fucking company of boot necks, like down in the shadows,

just sort of only coming out for, and, and these cra if there's a piss

up and then just, you just hide, just keep yourself away from him.

And that's pretty much what we got briefed was don't be dicks,

don't fucking do anything stupid.

Just keep yourself to yourself.

Yeah.

It was very much a, like a divide.

Not really trusted to speak to him.

It's only sort of corporal in above that actually had a conversation with else.

You were still a Marine this point?

Oh yeah.

At this point, straight out, yeah.

So this is still within the first six months, nine months last night.

Yeah.

Um, and what happened after that?

You've come back.

Girlfriend was still happy, still with you at the time?

Still there, just, yeah.

Um, and yeah, we knew, so everyone really wanted to go to for, because we

knew that was the next hec obviously throughout the whole of training, again,

the, that, that mentality of still, like, so lot conflicts are still going on.

You are very, very aware of that.

And obviously you want to train to do the job at the end of the day.

So, uh, yeah, everyone wanted to get 40, so like, we always knew

we were going to, to go in Harry.

That was always a plan.

So, yeah.

So the whole drive through it all, the whole sort of, um, conversations,

trainings, all geared up to like be going away to do the, did you get, uh,

do you have a choice when you were in training to say, I wanna go to, to 40.

So you put in your sort of your top three and obviously

everyone's, everyone put four.

Um, I think if, what if someone hadn't of that would've raised a few eyebrows

and flags, but you know what I mean?

It's each of their own sort of thing.

But yeah, everyone that I think it was, I dunno if it was notable

then, but whether knew it was gonna be like the last one for the core.

Obviously it was going, it sort of command every three vos I

think how that rotation worked.

I think so.

I think it was looking unlikely that there was gonna be like a sort of

hyc 2021 that the core were gonna do.

Yeah.

So I think everyone sort of knew it was probably the last chance we were

gonna get to go so, so Herricks Yeah.

Coming around now.

Yeah.

Are you still the Marine or any promotion courses?

Bring them?

So yeah, so I've got lunch track just before, um, again, in, in the court

it wasn't really a thing, it was a bit of a put that on sort of thing.

It wasn't really like official so to speak, but yeah.

Yeah.

So I picked that up just before we went.

Yeah.

I actually forgot that.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

So you get ready to go into prawn Herrick?

Yeah.

Um.

As a commander of Men, Lance Corwell.

Yeah.

Which HEC was this?

Uh, 17.

17. Yeah.

Um, please do talk through the, the tour.

Yeah.

How was it?

Was it kinetic?

No, so it was very different to what we'd been told.

Obviously going into 40.

So when we went to 40, we'd just come off the back end.

I think it was positive, forget wrong, I think it might have been 14, 8 14.

Um, so we'd just come into that and obviously we were, we were Charlie Company

and they had had a really bad time, especially they had a week where they just

like were losing blokes sort of every day.

Um, so we went into that and obviously the blokes that had been left

behind to stay at 40, obviously the core works on, you do sort of like

two year drafts and you move on.

So there'd been a few left behind, which are our corporals.

So obviously they had all that to deal with.

And then they had 30 odd blokes turn up that were bright eye bushy tailed.

So we caught the raft of a lot of stuff like that.

But I'd say we caught the raft.

We caught negatives, but also we got like the positives of, of that

experience coming through to us.

Obviously we had to earn that respect and sort of earn the right for them

to sort of respect us in, in a way.

Um, so yeah, so to answer your question, it was, yeah, it was quite, um, it

was an, it was an interesting one.

Like it wasn't, it was just quite, yeah.

Sorry, I'm losing my train of thought a little bit now.

Yeah, it was, it was confusing, I think for people because

it was very cat and mouse.

It wasn't kinetic.

It wasn't like, we're gonna go out here and sort of like all the stories you

hear, like what you're scrapping around.

And was that disappointing for you as you got out there thinking, you know,

I've heard these stories of Herrick, like, yeah, this is proper war fighting,

and again, arguably some of the harshest war fighting since World War ii.

Yeah.

So you're expecting it and it it didn't come.

No.

And it, it's hard to.

So explain that sort of like c obviously you understand that

'cause you'd asked me that question.

Yeah.

Is you want to go, you wanna do that?

Do you want me, you wanna get in a scrap or you wanna get

into contact, you wanna do this?

Um, so yeah, so it's sort of a little bit frustrating for us 'cause we were

sort of waiting for it to happen and we'd always, if someone, if another

patrol would go out, you'd be like, oh, fucking watch some happens.

Gutted if it happens to them.

Like really weird mentality to explain to anyone sort of not in that circle.

But yeah, it was very like Cat and Mari, like I said, there's, there's

not, not much appetite for the sort of the seniors and stuff to get into

stuff like that because they'd obviously done 1, 2, 3 tours with themselves.

So I just wanted to get in and get out.

They, they were happy to have a less connected tour.

I, I think so.

Yeah.

I think so.

Yeah.

Cash the check basically.

Yeah.

Have the, have the extra money they coming on things like their LSA Yeah.

And get home to their families.

Exactly.

Yeah.

At the end of the day there's still boot necks.

They, they're still like if you had the fan they'd have, they'd

have sent it, but I think, yeah.

Steve down.

They were, they just wanted a sort of nice, easy one.

But it was, it was quite interesting because it was so, it was so strategic.

It was very much sort of say hearts and minds.

Like we were working closely like a NA and A and p, um, like, and a lot

of the meetings, and I mean we had, we had them in our fob as well, so in our

pb so it was obviously all had to try to sort of deal with and yeah, quite a

con, quite a strategic and like, yeah, just a totally different tour compared

to what we expected and compared to what the seniors had had as well.

Um, and they, but on a positive note, everybody made it home.

No, it's unfortunately not.

So the only, the only sort of one kinetic issue we had is,

uh, we had a green and blue.

Um, and yeah, that's unfortunately when we lost Shannon and Dave.

So yeah, that was, again, there was not much appetite before for

anything to happen that day happened.

And then obviously after that there's not much appetite to

sort of get out and about really.

That was a strange week really.

'cause we'd gone from go walking down the road, sort of seeing the

a and p, seeing the a and r sort of like, I mean, chatting to them, doing

the whole sort of handshakes and cigarettes and all this sort of stuff.

And then still expected to do that for the rest of the tour.

Obviously the day after we've gone out to sort of, as a show of force almost.

Um, I think it was a day after, two days later, but then

obviously our mood had changed.

So all the kids and that, that we've been waving to and sort of thumbs upping

and stuff, and we're walking past them, just sort of like, you know what I mean?

Couldn't trust anyone.

So I think the whole mood around me.

Yeah.

And the area changed quite a bit and I think we've, we've done that.

We've carried on for about a month or so after, and I think after that it was

just like, fucking, there's no, there's no appetite to fucking do this now.

Um, so yeah, I think probably went through the motions sort of last

month or two and closed the PB down.

How, how did that death affect you?

Um, probably more so recently.

If I'm honest, it didn't affect me too much.

And I think about speaking for other people, I think it didn't affect

some of the lads that much either.

Obviously the lads that were out there and the lads that were close to him, and

obviously people that are close to Shannon that I still speak to now, um, it affected

people in different ways, but immediately it didn't quite, because we were still

there, we still had to do the job.

And so, I mean, it was, it was not long before, remember the Sunday as well.

So then, I mean, two, three weeks later, we were watching November services

on, on the tv and it was just like, it was just very surreal, really surreal.

Um, I think more so recently, especially since our kids and stuff.

And I think the emotions change as you get older, especially the November SS

just gone, like it's the most emotional I've been, I've never actually been

the emotional November seventies.

I like, I like to do it.

I like to go on my own, just sort of on my own little piece on

my own, never taken on with me.

Um, and go, go and have a point and.

Meet some of the old boys.

But yeah, this, this year, like I actually like really, like, couldn't let it go.

It's really weird because I wasn't mega close to Dave.

Obviously he's, he's part of the, the company and everyone knows each other.

The company's really, really tight.

But I didn't know him that well personally, but, or Shannon, obviously,

she came up patrol with us a few times, but yeah, it was just a bit surreal.

As I, as I've got older, it's, I thought about, I think about it more now.

Um, I think it's fair to say that like, as we age, hindsight's a

yeah, a brilliant thing, isn't it?

You know, we look back on these things and we think like, almost just that military

mindset isn't it, of uh, if, you know, we're out there to kill or be killed.

And if, if the worst happens in the ultimate sacrifices paid, like

yeah, we've still got a job to do.

Yeah, you've still gotta go out there, do what we're, and not even being paid to do.

You know, we, we don't do it for any political reasons or anything like that.

We're out there to do a job and it's in later years you then,

but that could have been me.

It like, I can't believe that.

Yeah, they're no longer with us.

Yeah.

And, um, can ask your controversial question.

Was it worth it, the tours and the war in Afghanistan for you personally?

No.

'cause all, all this came out few years ago, isn't it?

And everyone had came out with their opinions and stuff.

I think I did post something, but I dunno.

And you think there's a lot of stuff that goes on.

I mean, we're obviously sort of like Green Army, so to speak, but there's

a lot that goes on, especially knowing what I know now after doing

the other side of the other world.

There's a lot of that got stopped and it could have been a a lot worse.

Like you said, when, when you look at Afghan now, especially when they,

they pulled out and what the state it's in now, like is it worth it?

You can look at that guy fucking, no, what's the point?

Yeah, you've lost like try 500 men and women, but then thousands of injuries

and obviously the other injuries that we talk about that can't be seen and the

bigger picture, like, was it worth it?

No.

Companies make money.

Yeah, it's, I think it's not really, we never got paid enough to think about that.

It wasn't our rank to think about that, but we still went.

So, yeah.

And we never, it's important to say none of us, especially in my friendship

group, I think fair to say yours, no one joined because they were like,

I'm gonna fight for our government.

It was, we, we joined for primarily the, the experience.

Yeah.

And you know, said yourself.

It was, it was something to do.

Yeah.

It was some free fiz and we did the job to the best our Exactly.

I'd be lying if I was like, I want to go, I'm gonna join the wrong mills

'cause I wanna fight for my country.

Yeah, no, it's 'cause I wanted to get away from the wrong people at home.

I wanted some money.

Yeah.

I enjoyed the fizz like, and yeah, as you get into that, I think then I think

you become a bit more of a patriot.

Like you get, you become patriotic.

Like, yeah, I used to watch, you can play football, but I mean, I won't fucking

walk around singing the national anthem.

But by being in the core, by seeing these people that have lost friends,

by knowing them, people then, then you sort of, you become patriotic.

And I think.

Especially after that tour.

Yeah.

I was ready for it, but I wanted, I wanted to go, I wanted to get a medal.

I wanted to say, I've been in Afghan, you know what I mean?

I wanted to try and get into a scrap.

Yeah.

I think the tours that come after that, then you get a bit more

patriotic and you sort of like, well, I actually wanna do this now

because I can see the outcome of it.

Yeah.

Um, I think when you, those sort of headaches, or especially as it's

hard to see, hard to see the outcome, especially two females in when that

happened, it's just a bit like, yeah.

Herrick seventeen's finished.

So we're 2022.

20 2013. Yes.

Ish.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lance Corporal.

Yeah.

Still looking for something to do in the core.

Yeah.

Um, what came for you next?

A bit of a weird period.

Uh, so people started getting, moving on again.

We sort of like two years into that draft now.

Um, so lads are starting to get sort of drafted out and stuff.

I was sort of in a bit of a, a middle period.

Not sure what was happening.

I was, I was.

There was talk about, um, a new PTI course where they're

basically didn't launch their pti.

So I spoke to my old PTI back in training and I was like, this is what I wanna do.

Pretty much got said, look, I can get you on that course.

Um, Sergeant Major at the time standard was sort of like,

no, you're not doing that.

That's what you wanna do.

I'm not gonna promote you.

It's really not harming anyone, is it?

And at that time, I'd, I'd had my heart set on it.

I was like, I'd been thinking about PTI since being the cause.

Like, I like that.

I like what they do.

That's a bit of me still get paid for doing fees, do you know what I mean?

I, for my tour and just do that.

Um, and yeah, just had quite a bit of pushback from that.

Ended up staying at 44 a little bit and then I was just

like, I wanna do something.

I needed.

I think I've always had a challenge, like with the hockey, it was always

trying to get into that team, getting do that, and then joined the core.

And I joined the core and I was like, well, I've got nothing.

I've always needed something to train for.

So, um, that's when I started looking down and sort of the SF route.

Um, yeah, stumbled.

I stumbled upon SFCs.

Awesome.

And, and tell us what, what is, uh, an s ft, what's the difference between

those in the other branch office?

You've got S-B-S-S-A-S and then sssts and, and other branches, but

primarily what, what was the role and why were you looking at that?

Um, I'm not quite sure really.

I think it was probably a bit, looking back, maybe a bit intimidated.

I just thought I wasn't ready for the, the sort of the top tier stuff.

Um, so yeah, the, the SFC, it just sort of, it sold it quite well to me.

It was sort of, you were still going away with aad, you were

still doing the, the cool stuff.

You were wearing the, like the Gucci gear.

Um, and it was a little bit interesting.

It wasn't just sort of like so much like door kicking, that sort of stuff.

And yeah, just the people I'd spoke to just sold it really well to me.

Um, so yeah, just, I mean, I'm not, I'm not technical minded at all.

I probably am now, but at the time I wasn't.

So in theory, it's just a bit of a fucking weird decision, really looking back.

I dunno what it was, but yeah.

Went down and obviously did like the.

Free aptitude, like the sort of the briefing course and stuff.

Yeah, I, I was really interested in it after the briefing course, to be honest.

Yeah.

I sold it really well at the time.

SSDs special Forces communicator.

Yeah.

Correct.

Yeah.

So for a guy that's been a boot neck Yeah.

Green Army.

Yeah.

To then looking at doing, yeah.

Something technical.

Yeah.

Couldn't be any different.

No.

Especially when I was so fz minded and yeah.

It was the fitness that I liked.

Um, yeah.

I don't, I I fucking no idea what happened there.

No idea.

I dunno, it might have been a bit of, um, yeah, may maybe I,

I did just panic a little bit.

And how was the briefing course for you?

Yeah, it was good.

Good eye opener.

Getting down to getting safe, going around, seeing all the stuff that they

do, seeing all the kit, getting hands on the kit, doing the fitness down there.

Um, getting, yeah, getting close and personal with the Jurassic

Coast and yeah, I loved it.

Yeah.

It's just what I needed as well.

'cause everyone, everyone had left 40 again, I was sort of in that period where.

Sort of going back to when I was a brick cloud, just sort of going

for the motions a little bit.

So it, it was nice to have something there to, to work towards

and like a new test basically.

Did that, that teach you anything about yourself that like you always

need to have something to aim for.

You can't just sit still, like Yeah.

And that proves like currently as well.

Especially now that I've left Yeah.

Just booking stupid challenges and stuff, which I'm sure, but yeah.

Yeah.

I'm sure we, I've uh, yeah.

Recognized that recently.

So it's brief briefing courses done.

Yeah.

You then went on selection.

Yeah.

And your site major was okay with this though?

He was okay with it, I think.

Uh, yeah, there's a weird, there's, yeah, we had a few pushbacks as

well, 'cause there's a few lads going on on main selection as well.

And we, we've gone out to America to do, um, an exercise.

We were, we were trying to get back to do some like training,

getting like mounting packages.

So there's a lot of like pre-course and then, yeah, there's the odd sergeant or

two that was just sort of like on push back and then, oh, why, why are you

going to do those courses and stuff?

I mean, I think they're the sort of people that Floyd failed or whatever.

But yeah, it was weird.

We, we were still getting a group of ads that were going on to these courses

where it wasn't made easy for us.

Why do you think your seniors would push back on something like that?

You know, you're going to like, join something like trying to join the

most elite military in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You think because they maybe tried it failed or?

I, I think so.

Just a resentment towards you or?

I think so, yeah.

Like as you on in your career.

Like, because they needed the blokes to be there.

Yeah.

I think like the sergeant ma major level, it's sort of like, it's, it's admin in it.

I mean, I don't, I've never done that job, but I imagine it's, I mean, like get

rid of a member staff and replacing 'em.

It's, you've gotta do all that and it's a bit of AIG roll.

And then I think the other side is exactly what you said.

There's a bit of resentment, jealousy as well.

Um, I, I generally think that's, that's why, but it's also a good

test of character though, isn't it?

To Yeah.

You know, if you can enjoy them.

Yeah.

You know, mental resilience is a huge part of the military and now.

Even more so it's gonna be more paramount than ever that you

have that, yeah, that resilience.

So how was selection for you?

Uh, it was good.

I was in fitness side of it, technical side of it, not so well.

Any issues on the F at all?

No.

On the hills?

Nah.

No, I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed the, enjoyed the hills.

So as the SFCs work is, I do the vla do four.

Um, it's the same marches but just you have different sort of criteria.

Uh, but it's changed quite a lot now since I've done it.

So I'm not sure what it is now, but at the time it's still like

the Phoebe Hill phase and stuff.

So yeah, as a boot neck it's sort the boot neck shined in that and sort of like

the army lads sort of struggled, but.

Yeah, the sort of eight to 10 weeks that followed that is the

boot nexts are in the trenches.

And then yeah, the army last fish trying to turn our laptops off and

stuff, which is, yeah, quite ironic.

'cause that's sort of, that's our job when we actually pass.

But yeah, just we, we were just, I was treading water

mate doing that technical bit.

So it is very different to, um, standard that being a badge lad that

they then go off into the jungle.

Yeah.

Do you have to do a jungle phase or anything like that?

No.

So you do like, uh, again, this has changed, but we do like a, the main

tech phase, the main comms phase, it's called, I think it's about eight weeks.

Uh, you do the whole comms phase and then you do sort of like a tactical bit.

Uh, you learn sort of like the car drills.

Do you want me to get back, do a little bit of soldiering?

Yeah.

Um, then you go away and do like your jumps and s see

and all that sort of stuff.

So yeah.

So basically, yeah, essentially when they do like the jungle and CT

stuff, we, we do all the radio stuff.

And how long is that selection process for an SFC? I think it's six months.

I think six months.

So it's yeah, months.

At any point on that if you're not up to Oh yeah, yeah.

So back to unit C later.

Yeah.

Same as any sort of normal sort of, um, course really you

have, you have your points.

If you're not making criteria, then basically it's absolutely

not an attendance course is it?

Oh no.

If you're not up to, up to the standard you need to be at and it's Yeah.

Same thing.

They're not gonna drag you through.

Yeah.

Essentially.

It's not like a boot neck training where they're trying to get you to pass.

Yeah.

Selection's different.

It's like this is a criteria.

If you don't pass it, then that's you.

And any issues going through your six month selection process or was it, dare

I say it other than trying to switch a laptop on Yeah, straightforward.

You were So there's, there's touch and go of like staying on that, but

like I said, good lads around us and they, they, they are there even though

you have to pass, but that for that period is again, you know nothing.

Same as when you join the core.

Like I knew nothing.

So they're literally teaching them and they obviously teach you well enough.

'cause from that day when of doing all the tech stuff to actually passing it.

You think about they, they fucking taught you well and I've taught

you, taught you hard as well.

So yeah, that was a bit personally when I thought, oh, if I'm

gonna go, it's gonna be here.

But then after that, again, I sort of enjoyed it, enjoyed doing the

sort of like the soldiering parts of it and he jumps and see and about

to see it, but uh, mean you didn't enjoy it, see is different mate.

Yeah.

Is there anything you can talk about for, for those that may not know what SIR is?

Yeah, yeah.

Like I, I'll obviously touch over, I don't, like I said, I don't wanna

be a bloke at ING stuff, but yeah, it's, um, I think we've done, again,

this has changed as well, but we did it, was it five days on number one?

I think you get like 12 hour ration pack.

They make life difficult for you about just before you're about to

go in and yeah, we, we were, we were up in Scotland and the weather was

literally like this the whole time.

So yeah, there was a few, I had to question yourself a few times if

there's a point, anyone the tail in, but I think strategically they

pull it so late in the course where it's one of the last things you do.

Seer jumps and then you sort of pass.

So no one's gonna prefer the TAL in then?

I think, yeah.

If they put sea at the start, then they known at the end of the court.

Might be that way a little bit higher.

Yeah.

Then you go into the bag and do the, the whole, that whole process, which

we, we used to do the long one.

Yeah.

Same as the lads, but I think it's dropped down a bit now.

That's me just saying that I've done this odd, see, you've done the hard stuff too.

Yeah.

Any hour in C is grafted.

But yeah, it's a, it's actually really interesting process and the whole

training exercise is, even though it's, it's a test, you getting pushed

to the limit, it's actually training and at the end of it you actually,

like, you learn before you go into it or what you have to do and like the

tactics and all this sort of stuff.

And then you do get a bit of debrief at the end as well,

which actually really useful.

So it's it's mega professional environment.

It's so clever how they do it and stuff you learn and obviously

it's, it's fucking important.

'cause How has your, how has your debrief?

You done well?

Uh, yeah, wouldn't really listening, but yeah, there's obviously work

on points, a few stuff like this.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think the main thing is just sort of keeping your head on and stuff.

But yeah, it's weird because it's easy to sit there and go, oh, it's training.

You know what I mean?

You know, I mean, you haven't got a quite watch, but you, like, in a day

or two, I'll be love, nice shower.

Yeah.

Back in the gala field there was that, that a big part of you going through

sea is that you, you know that that's point, that's isn't, you know, your,

because it's that it's that realistic.

And I think if with any exercise, some lads are really good at this, when

they go into, into exercises, they'll really throw themselves into it.

You know, sometimes you're a bit like takes a bloke beyond

the trees, fucking whatever.

Some lads like are noticed years later they'd really like embrace the

exercise and like really get into it.

And I think that's what happened in s about, like, about knowing.

So it all felt real.

Like at one point, obviously you're a bit delirious, you

haven't eaten much, you're fucked.

You got people when you go into interrogation stage and yeah,

it just felt, it felt real.

He felt like he couldn't get out of it.

So I couldn't, I couldn't even think about going back to the GR 'cause it

was just like, this is never ending.

This is my life now.

Just in this mad loop and just like, yeah.

Deteriorated.

But yeah, it's, it's, it's really weird.

It's hard to explain until you've actually done it.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's probably the best training, best exercise.

So you're smiling about it now, so it's, you know, yeah.

Twice, over 10 years ago now since, yeah.

Probably.

Yeah.

Since that had happened.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know.

Uh, and during your time in UKSF, had you ever had another situation like that?

Uh, what as in training was where you'd been, um, where

you actually been captured?

Oh no, I'm ly not.

No.

You lucky.

Nah, I'd been ready though.

Yeah.

But yeah, I dunno.

Now, I mean, yeah.

I mean, shits sit the fan if that happens.

Yeah, absolutely.

But yeah.

Said you be prepared it.

Look, look at that's a bit of training I've never had to use.

Good.

I think to be fair, that's probably the one bit of training no one wants to do.

Nah.

So you're, now, is it fair?

Say you're badged in is an S ffc.

Yeah.

Um.

What happens now a, a unit, and please don't go into detail that

you can't or you don't want to.

Yeah, just what's, what's life like now that you are down?

You were based down at Harford, weren't you?

Uh, down in Paul.

Down in Paul site, yeah.

Uh, so naturally again at the time, boot Next.

Naturally going into Paul and the Army lads across Harford.

Um, yeah, just a totally different, different life.

Just literally like being a c again, very much trusted with everything you can.

You don't get looked after as in, in, as in you're not

getting watched all the time.

Pretty much.

Big boys rules go and do this.

It's not so much in the core where it's like, what?

This is your task.

This is what you've gotta do, A, B, C. They're like, this is the task.

Go away.

Just come back to me when it's done.

So yeah, really, really different mentality.

Uh, you've gotta grow up pretty quick.

Um, you can easily make mistakes by getting a bit lax with stuff,

but you soon learn quick and hard.

Obviously the fall out of those mistakes, fucking massively detrimental.

Um, when you're away and even when you're just in the UK as well.

But yeah, mega, mega professional, and it's anything, it starts to get real.

It feels more real, I think when you're in the Green Army and not the core.

It's you constantly on exercise, you are always pretending you, you're running

around like yellow, BFA on, and it's very much like going for the motions and stuff.

And let's go back to basics, but as soon as you go down

there, it's, everything's real.

So yeah, a very grown up environment, but really interesting.

And so tours happened as well and yeah.

Similar to, uh, green Army being, being in the core, is it standard deployments

or do you have anything different your way for short ops coming back?

Yeah, so we have, um, they have a few little things that are going on.

They, um, there's a lot of short tasking.

There's a lot of things that just pop up, uh, that even you don't know is happening.

It just sort of happens.

So you'll just get like a call and it'll be like.

So Luke, I, I get you to pull your mic closer to your face.

Oh, sorry.

That was happening.

Everyone's start dancing.

That is that alright?

Everyone's dancing around there.

Sorry.

Um, yeah, a lot of short taskings come out.

Um, sort of very much We need you and we need you sort of yesterday.

So a lot of running back we had on fire to sort of getting stuff together.

Uh, a lot of niche little tasks, which are like, again,

really cool, really interesting.

But it's all, it's all small tasks, like smaller teams.

So compared to like green arm in the core where you're going away sort of

unit level, company level, you're going around as teams of four teams of six.

And sometimes you're going out on your own.

So you are leaving the gate and you've got yourself, you've got millions of

pounds worth a kit, A passport, yeah.

See it later.

That's where it becomes, like you said, like the big boys rules.

It's, yeah, you've gotta grow up fast and yeah.

Really interesting jobs going on.

Uh, and obviously post s there are still quite busy as well, so

a lot of, um, are you happy to name any of the countries you've.

Visited, uh, roughly, yeah.

Yeah.

So I went back to Afghan, uh, that was a really, really good tour.

Uh, with some other units.

Yeah, probably, probably my best tour, most interesting one that's looking back,

most film worthy, but when you're in it, you don't really realize what you do.

It's just you go day to day, it's the job at the end of the day.

But then when you look back and you're thinking, fuck, that's like, that's

like the stuff you see on movies, but you're probably dripping about

it when we were doing it going, fuck no, we're gonna finish that 'cause

I wanna go to the gym sort of thing.

But yeah, the really like, interesting technical, the, the people that were

involved in the different units, the different countries, just all, you see

everything come together and that's the stuff where obviously the public

don't see, I think the Green Army don't see when you get a lot of dripping and

you're moaning about stuff, but you don't really see the bigger picture,

the stuff that goes in, as it sounds like in the shadows, in the background

at that sort of level is, is crazy.

Absolutely crazy, the stuff that goes on, but yeah.

And is there any others you can touch on?

So you've been back to Afghanistan?

Yeah, uh, yeah, and I went around, uh, north Africa area, which

again was really interesting.

It's quite political stuff.

Um, that's why you have to be so, so careful about talking about stuff.

But yeah, again, it's, you just, you just go with the flow.

There's not really, there's obviously a long term plan, but you just get, you

get thrown all these, all these spindles where it's, things change really quick and

you think you're gonna be in one location for ages, and then the next minute you're

like, well, we need to move and we need to go like in an hour and move them around.

And all these different assets, different people.

Yeah.

It's the, it's the stuff you read about it and the stuff that

you can watch in the movies.

It's quite, it's quite cool.

So being in SC was this like the, the pinnacle of your career at this point?

Is this like my, this is actually my life.

Like this is, yeah, this is cool.

Like this is, yeah.

Especially being at that level as well, I think.

If anything, you actually doing a good jobs being sort of like the, the

junior, sort of like the corporals.

Yeah.

I think as soon as you start gonna sergeant level, even in that world,

it's, I mean, you start moving beyond the desk and, and stuff like that.

So yeah, that's, that's what I joined to do.

So I was happy.

I was, I was content with that first, I was content with the second one.

I was just like, this is, is there any like standout moments of, of either

those deployments of where you were like that, that I'll never forget that memory?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there, there was one on the, on the first one in front of, be Delicate and

essentially it was me and the two lads.

Uh, and we'd, we'd have like a team of Afghans and we'd just basically

driving around and we'd get into Intel and stuff and go and knock on a few

doors and do all this sort of stuff.

And that was literally our life just sort of rotating like sort of every single

week doing that once, twice, three times a week and yeah, that becomes the norm.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, there, there was the one like that it sort of

went a bit West, went when.

That's when you see like the professionalism and the blokes

that you're dealing with.

Like it's, you're sort of mates and we're all boot necks to start with,

but yeah, when stuff goes wrong, that's when you really see him step

up and that's when he sort of like step back it and you go, fucking hell.

That's, that's why he does that job.

What I mean, that's, that's why he gets paid.

That, that's why he is, that's why he gets to walk around him with a beard and Yeah.

Wear what the fuck he wants.

Before, before, obviously beards were a thing in that before beards were a

thing, army, some beards were cool, but, but yeah, that's when you realize like

probably these, these are the blokes that like deserve it and this is, that's why

they are where they are sort of thing.

I think it's easy to see people out sort of walking around and doing bits like

that, but when you actually see 'em do their job, it's, it's fucking impressive.

So it's a pretty high level demand.

Yeah.

Just for you, like physically, mentally, yeah.

Any takeaway points from, from either these talks or just being down at pool?

Um.

I think it's good.

I think, I think you've actually gotta be a bit ready for that.

You've gotta be a bit mature, or if you don't, you're gonna get mature fast.

Um, yeah, I think it's just that level of, that level of trust.

Um, you've gotta trust each other.

You've gotta trust yourself.

Yeah.

There's, there's a lot of pressure on you at points, and I think it got

not just for like my job, obviously everyone's got their point in the job,

but there's certain times where you just sort of like, I fucking, I'm, I'm

literally the, the middle bit between what's happening in front of me,

what's happening up there, and, and God knows what else, who else is watching.

So yeah, there's a bit of realization when you like, fuck me, this

is, I'm, I'm a key piece here.

Um, and you've gotta deal with that, that pressure.

And especially the lads as well, because, you know what I mean?

Like I said before, they're sort of looking at you and that the shit hits a

fan and like, you've got your job to do.

This is where you earn your own money sort of thing.

So yeah, I think, I think you've gotta be a decent level of maturity.

Um, but yeah, just, just willing not to be Jack.

And like I said, you work in a small team, so if, if you are that sort of

person, you'll get found out quick.

Yeah.

And hypothetically, you have a guy that's not putting his weight.

He is Jack.

Yeah.

Not that it would happen, but if it did, what, what would happen to

that individual in that environment?

Yeah.

Would they they'd just be Yeah.

Be conversation straight away.

Yeah.

We never bury it.

But suppose like in, in a troop sort of green Army style, they

sort of essentially get moved out or get pushed away and stuff.

But because you've got, you've gotta have them awkward conversations,

you've gotta have that conversations.

Yeah.

I suppose because of the training that you've gone through, it's Yeah.

Yeah.

You've, you've bred that mindset where that's not gonna be a thing, is it?

It's no.

People know what's at stake and what they have to do.

Exactly.

It's integrity and it's, it's, it's trusting each other.

Like no one's going to, no one's gonna come and check my work.

I mean, there's, there's us people running around Africa doing,

doing all that sort of stuff.

I'm in charge.

I have my jobs to do, but no one's gonna come and check me.

So if one night I decide, ah, I can't be asked to do that, or I'm

gonna sort lads radios out before we go out and stuff like that.

But then, yeah, get on the ground and someone doesn't work or they're

obviously gonna look looking at me going, fuck did that ever happen?

Did the radios comms ever go down?

They always go down.

That's the problem.

That's why you, your money, that's where you there when you literally stood there

and like you're at the breach and, and the bloke at the front's calling you over.

He is like, my radio's not working.

Like, mate, like in the dark, that's where you earn your money isn't as gci

as hot bed in at the front, but yeah.

Yeah, that exactly.

Stuff like that, you just, they're just expected to sort it out.

But again, because, because of that environment, there's not so

much that many lines to go by.

So it's sort of like, just do that job as long as you do it.

I don't care what you do.

And obviously in green I'm just like, this is how you do it.

This is the correct way to do it.

Obviously we get a bit more leeway and uh, can do things a bit outside of the book.

Yeah.

To get stuff working or.

Get the job done and stuff.

We're, we're still down at Paul at this time.

Yeah.

You're absolutely loving your career.

Yeah.

Was there any aspirations to become badge diva?

Yeah.

With Paul or Hereford?

Yeah, so with the, with the job, especially that job, obviously

I've been down there for a bit.

It's sort of semi looking at promotion and stuff, but that's where

the jobs sort of got a bit shit.

Like, I didn't, I, I knew I wasn't gonna be in the military for like,

so I wasn't like, what I'm gonna be, and I'm gonna get to that rank.

I wasn't bothered, I just wanted to join the military.

V realizes what the cool stuff was, what the, the decent jobs were, what

level you had to be at that, and I just, I was just happy just to

stay at that and then whenever I'm done, I'll punch out sort of thing.

So yeah.

So then it started to get to, okay, like the jobs was getting drying up

a little bit and they're trying to share the good jobs out and stuff.

And I was just like, again, I wasn't really mega into the technical stuff.

I wasn't really into radios at all, but I just liked.

Deploying.

Um, so yeah, so that's where I had to make a decision.

I was like, I think it's, I think it's time.

I think I'll have, I'll have a crack.

Yeah.

Nice.

And, and you did have a crack.

I had a crack, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So, and I think it was Did you have a crack?

More than once?

I had a crack twice.

Um, and yeah, I, I enjoyed it.

Like I really got into it.

Um, again, I, my, my mentality was on it.

That's, that's all I wanted to do and I decided that that is it.

That's all I wanna do now.

So, so we, we touched earlier, so hills, yeah.

No issue.

Fine both times.

Yeah.

Got to the jungle.

Yeah.

Got through the jungle.

Got through the jungle, yeah.

And is that where things stopped?

Yeah, pretty much.

Like at the end of jungle, got back, obviously I was happy I got to the end.

You always, you, you'd self-doubt in yourself.

'cause it's really mentally, it's a, it's a hard course 'cause.

You dunno if you're doing fucking well.

Even the lads that are, you know, you can see like who the decent

lads and, you know what I mean?

You can see like fucking he's, he's all over it.

Yeah.

I think even though doubting himself, 'cause you get no

feedback, it's really like mentally it's a hard, hard, hard game.

And so with no disrespect men.

Yeah.

Evidently both of those times it was jungle.

You'd come back and it was Yeah.

Not for you.

Not for you.

Yeah.

And still at this point there's, there's no feedback Given there was,

did you have anything as to why?

I think, I think the first time I, I probably was But

you're not taking anything in.

Uh, I think, I think I've got a little bit of feedback and I remember the little bit.

Um, and again, because that probably just drive, drove me to get on it again.

Um, so then the second time I was probably a bit realistic.

The first time I think I was pretty, I wasn't massively shocked.

Um, can you share that feedback as to why?

I honestly can't, can't remember.

I honestly can't remember.

I think it was just.

Like I said, it was really, you know what I mean?

I was a bit emotional.

I just wasn't just sort of like, I just wanted to get out, get out there.

Uh, I think it was just, just didn't really pick it up as well as the

lads, which I think it was Right.

I, I agreed with it to be honest, right after, um, and I think I

actually, I actually managed to get a phone call with him somehow.

I think it was about, I decided I was going back on, uh, and I managed,

I managed to get, have a phone call with one the Ds and I got some decent

feedback like, this is what you need to tighten up and stuff like that.

So I was like, cool, happy.

So yeah.

Then I've gone on again.

Uh, yeah, same, same classroom.

So yeah, same feedback.

And I was, yeah.

And when they told me then I was sort of, as I heard it, I

was like, 'cause that was me.

As like, that was my last, my last thing.

I didn't want to go back to being an FC 'cause I knew there was like

promotions pretty much waiting there.

There was nothing cool happening in, I was like this, this way or nothing.

So yeah, I've got that, got that last fit bit of feedback.

I was pretty much just like.

Appreciate your time.

Thank you very much.

And I think there's, there's huge tip of the hat towards you for that though,

to, to turn around to have gone on the hills, gone through the jungle and to

not, I mean there might have been a bit of resentment there, but to Yeah.

Be like, actually, do you know what I agree with them.

They made the right call for Yeah, for them.

I think that's, that's pretty big of you sometimes, even if it's on

whatever course you doing in the military, see now they're wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

Nah, I should have been there.

Oh, you gonna get back before a hundred percent's?

Can you back yourself as well?

Because you wouldn't have gone in the course in, in the first place.

So, but to stand there and be like, yep, it is what it is.

I agree.

I think that's, yeah.

Yeah.

Take my hat off you for that.

It's, um, yeah, I think the second big character to do so the second

time I, I struggled a bit more of it.

Um, yeah, because that's what I wanted to, I was like, no, this is what I've

got to do this, this is what I wanna do.

Yeah.

I, I knew realistically what was gonna happen, so I was like, I

know I'd probably leave after that.

So I was a bit a bit gutted 'cause I was like, I didn't really wanna

leave the military, but I was like, there's nothing else I wanna do.

Like it's either that one, nothing.

I think there was a bit of resentment there and I think.

Bit of anger, just, just all the emotions and then a bit of like bit sadness

and then again, just keep going for that rotation week after bit angry.

Like what I, but at the same time, it wasn't, you weren't, not

that it is just an SFC anyway.

You were still UKSF, but you had another thing going on

at the same time, didn't you?

Which was contact coffee.

I did, yeah.

Yeah.

So you, you and a another boot neck were Yeah.

Started the company.

Yeah.

How old was contact coffee at this point?

Uh, so this was 2016.

So this had, this had started, so after my first tour, Afghan down in

port, I then did, I had about a month off and then I went back to do some

Narva, a few different locations.

So I think I've done another two F months.

So within the space of 12 months, I've done sort of nine months deployment.

So, uh, obviously this got flagged up a little bit and they were sort of like,

well, you need to chill out a little bit.

Pulled me out, the squadron put me in like a, like a holding squadron

where it was like just a few little tasks come up now and then like,

pretty much where lads can just chill out, breathe like tickled or leave.

And so yeah, just a bit of, a bit of chill out time.

I said loads of time on our, on our hands.

Um, and yeah, I was a bit entrepreneurial anyway before joined the call.

So I was business partner.

Uh, yeah.

During my time in Afghan I seen an American brand.

They seen this as, yeah.

Um, and I wanted to buy some.

I was like, that's pretty cool.

So I went to buy some, it turned out it was gonna be like 50

quid or something by the time importing just for a bag of coffee.

And I was like, fucking went look for a UK supplier.

Yeah.

I wasn't, it must be a British company.

I wasn't.

That's where that little idea just sort of ticked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then well went and did it and made it.

Just did it.

Yeah.

But it's um, just didn't really start a busy, I dunno what we started.

We just, it wasn't just started.

Just started.

Well come to contact coffee.

Soon, but you, you'd come off selection a second time.

Yeah.

And at that point you were then like, yeah, I'm, I'm done.

Yeah, I'm, I'm getting out.

Yeah.

Was it quite quick after that?

Uh, yeah, so I'd had a, a couple months, if I'm honest, I probably

didn't deal with it that well.

I was, uh, and later on, especially a few years later, that's still, that's

probably my main sort of struggle.

Um, yeah.

I, I just don't think I coped with it that well.

So I've sort of not convinced myself I'd passed or I sort of thought it was

just, it was just gonna sort of happen.

I just didn't really know how to deal with, with that and what to do next.

'cause there's nothing, there was nothing I would submerge myself in it

that much, like mentally, physically training, like my whole life was

like, this is what's gonna happen.

Yeah.

I just didn't really cope with it the second time.

Um, so yeah, I'd sort of bounced down for a month or two and then I

think I just, I think I just realized and I was like, that's, yeah, I

don't want to go on potentially.

I've gone on a third or gone down another route to one of the other units,

but I didn't, I, I'd have just been doing that for the sake of it, I think.

Um, so yeah, I just sort of made the decision was like,

yeah, I think that's me.

Like I don't, I got, I got found a promotion.

I was just like, it's not for me now.

I think I'm done.

So yeah, pretty much I having that idea in my head and that thought was pretty

much like, oh, what's happening now?

And then a bit of excitement and like, right, I'm going.

Yeah.

Any regrets from leaving?

Not now.

I think there was, I was quite, yeah, I was quite resentful, I

think, so I thought I did 10 years.

But I think obviously if, if, if everything would've gone to play, I

think I'd have, I would've obviously done more, it probably would've

done maybe four years or something.

Uh, I don't, I don't think I'd have been in for life.

That was never me.

I didn't really want that.

So I imagine when the same would've happened again for the

past, that course I'd got to a certain point and then you done.

I just wanted to do that stuff.

So yeah, I think realistic I'd have done it and then maybe done a few

years and then and punched out anyway.

But yeah, a a bit of resentment and obviously you always miss the lads and

stuff like that, but every time I've felt like that, I'd always look back and go,

there's a reason why I put my shit in you.

What?

I mean, there wasn't a luck to man.

There wasn't that much going on.

And it, it comes back to your hockey days though, doesn't it?

You, you know, there's always an aspiration to be better and better

and better, which a lot of elite level sports athletes fall off the bandwagon

once they've reached that be cup.

Yeah.

Then it's what's next?

What happens next?

But yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Evident you had a new focus since you've come out, which was contact coffee.

Yep.

So we're gonna circle back a little bit to, obviously you were still

serving and your business partner was still serving when it was a thing.

Yeah.

It's inception you've seen this other company, um, was that like, oh, I

wanna do that, or just we search like it's kind of a gap in the market here.

Yeah.

Coffee's.

Pretty wa isn't it?

Yeah.

Um, you know, freeze dried shit.

Yeah.

And you, your coffee bags, which we're probably displaying here.

Oh yeah.

Um, quite innovative.

Hadn't seen anything like it No.

Before.

Why, why, um, why coffee?

I mean, I kind of explained it for you, but Yeah.

What, what was, what was your why as to, to wanting to get it started?

Um, again, like I said before, we, we were quite entrepreneurial,

so a bit of a gap in the market.

I had, I had time on my hands.

Um, same as my business partner.

I think just coffee as a whole, going back to Herrick is, that's where we

sort of started getting into coffee.

Like, I used to get coffee sent out a lot.

I had a, I had a glass cer that I dropped like the first week.

But there's, it's obviously sort of that ritual.

Like you go out on the, on the patrols, like, I mean there long day patrols

mean they're like eight hour, 10 hours patrols that are like just long days.

And you come back and obviously the main thing on the evening was

obviously having scan and then.

Everyone obviously smoked for some reason, obviously having a F and stuff.

And then yeah, just sitting around having, having a coffee.

It was just sort of that, that bringing together that you didn't

really realize you were doing.

Do you know what I mean?

You sit down, you'd have a chat, have a, have a coffee, have

an argument if you needed one.

And yeah, it was just sort of that togetherness and especially after lot

the Dave and Shannon stuff, obviously there was a lot of conversations that

happened after that and it was just, yeah, just naturally brings people together.

I know they, they all British fingers sit down and have a cup of tea,

but like yeah, it was, wasn't it?

It was like you sit down as soon as you get sort of like a hot wet,

it's just people just sort of like, like drop their shoulders a little

bit and just sort of relax and talk.

So the coffee was obviously coming into the market quite a bit.

It was still sort of, costers are sort of starting to pop up and nothing.

I think that that sort of a lifestyle of drinking coffee was,

was building up quite nicely.

And yeah, like I said, there was a bit of a gap in the market.

It was too expensive to buy the American stuff, so we just saw that opportunity.

Contact coffees started becoming a thing.

Yeah.

How were the military while you were getting started?

Were.

Accepting of it?

Or were they like, what are you doing?

Are you gonna try and use your career and your sort of status

within Ksf to, to push this?

Yeah.

Or were they just like, yeah, whatever.

Crack on.

I mean, yeah.

When you, when you lay it out like that, it's, you think, how the

fuck did you get away with it?

But we were, we were very honest and open and did everything by the book.

Uh, went all the way up to ADT level, had him sort of sign it off and say pretty

much he was quite, quite grown up about it and was just like, look, as long as

you don't jeopardize yourself, the unit or anyone within the unit sort of crack on.

So we knew our lines.

Do you know what I mean?

It was like that anyway, regardless of if you had a

business then down in that world.

So never gonna sing anything.

Never jeopardize the place we worked or place itself.

So, yeah, we just, we just played the game massively.

Played the game.

It's faceless throughout, throughout it all.

And that's not even just trying to pretend to be Gucci, it's

just generally just faceless.

And yeah, didn't, didn't jeopardize anything.

So yeah, as long as we, we played the game, touched base every now and then.

There was a few, a few raised over by, by a few people.

But to be honest, we had really good, good feedback, even from the people you'd

expect to sort of give you a bit of shit.

But yeah, everyone was really, really good about it.

Nice.

Very lucky and basics.

Done well.

Good coffee.

Yeah.

Fresh coffee, not freeze dried.

Yeah, exactly.

It's not coffee.

It's not coffee.

Sorry.

Gets me off on one with supplements, you know, there, there's, there's,

it's not going down that, how would you describe freeze dried

coffee compared to your coffee?

Even a coffee bag or beans or ground?

Uh, so freeze dried, obviously, shit.

Uh, I think it does, it does have its purpose, especially like

ING packs, you know what I mean?

They've got sort of 10, 15 year shelf life.

But so, so our answer is no matter where you are, you shouldn't sort of

jeopardize the quality of your coffee.

So just because you're in Afghan, just because you're in the top of a mountain,

just because you're in the jungle doesn't mean you have to drink shit coffee.

You can just drink a coffee, but.

Using different techniques.

Yeah.

Uh, so that's where like the air press came in, into play and stuff, and you

can deploy with all this stuff and that's where the, that's where the

bags were absolute gold us for us.

So as soon as we discovered the bags and beat us up, we could do it in our blends.

We were just like, these are fucking golden.

Obviously, longer term, bigger picture thinking fucking enough we could get

these in the ration packs and no reason why lads should be drinking shit coffee.

I mean, you're getting better, you're getting better biscuits, they're

getting better food now, so why can't you just have better coffee?

And had you got 'em into the ration packs?

No.

So we've, this is something we've been bouncing on for a few years.

We, we got close-ish with some, some other stuff a few years ago.

But the main one is the, the best before, obviously they're ving packs, you know,

I mean, they're stuck in a shake on them.

They sat there fucking 10 years and then lads are opening up and eating them.

So that, that's the only fallback from 'em is obviously the quality

of them being so long term.

But yeah, something we're trying to work on still the main goal is,

is to get 'em on the ration packs.

But yeah, I think people, people always buy their own stuff now.

Yeah.

Yeah, we sell lots of lads get into it.

It is hardening, isn't it?

Right.

Like ration patch.

You know, we're, we're very much to say we try and make good products,

but good products comes slightly shorter shelf life, so we don't

wanna compromise on quality.

Yeah.

But if we want to be doing these things with the MOD Yeah.

You know, ours is, um, and I'm wanna touch on it briefly on informed sport, but you,

you obviously don't have informed sport.

It's not a, a sport supplement, but who Organic fair trade can

cause a, a bit of issue, you know?

Yeah.

We've sold contact coffee for a while.

Does well for us.

What, what is the point of having organic or fair trade?

Is it just a logo you're paying for?

Yeah, same, similar to yourself.

It's, it's these sort of tick in the boxes.

Like people ask us like, oh, are you main post alliance?

It's like, tell us what that means.

Like it's just nice.

Yeah.

Like yeah.

They're just, they're just tick.

They're just ticking the boxes.

Like all ticking the boxes.

Yeah.

It's just box.

Yeah.

To line someone else's pocket.

Which ultimately then just means the cost of your stuff has to be more

'cause you are having to pay for Yeah.

Fancy logos.

Yeah.

So it's, I mean, the only thing that's important now, and it is like

all the recyclable stuff, I think, I mean, as it sounds, if everyone

does a bit that that's a box that you sort of have to tick into fake.

You sort of wanna tick, really.

Yeah.

Like I said, the other stuff, it's just, just corporate bullocks.

Yeah.

You know a lot about how was, so how When, by the time you got out, so contact coffee

would've been what, couple of years old?

Three years old?

Yeah.

Something.

I was about four years in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So four years in.

Yeah.

How's that transition leaving?

Yeah.

The military.

Like the most elite military forces.

Yeah.

In the world to You're a civilian, a veteran.

Yeah.

But you, you're back in Siri Street.

Yeah.

How did you personally adapt to getting back into that?

So at the time, fine.

Again, by our Bushy tailed, exciting new start is absolutely fine.

Um, so contact Cuff, even though it was going in the background, it's, it

was never, actually, I didn't, I didn't know what I was gonna do when I left.

I, um, put my shit in, didn't really do any courses, didn't

really know what was happening.

Uh, it wasn't even though contact Cuff was there, I was running

it, it was literally in my lap.

But I was like, is that even a thing?

Is it a job?

Can it actually pay me?

Sort of thing.

Um, and then when I've put my notice in, obviously COVID has kicked off.

Um, so then I've literally just been sat at home.

I'm getting paid by the military, but then I'm actually, for once being able

to work full-time on contact coffee, it has always been a thing on an evening for

like an hour or two, or, I mean, on lunch.

So I actually, I actually worked in it full-time and having

that, that sort of work on it full-time, just, it just scaled.

And with it being COVID, everyone is buy online and yeah, all the graphs on

the numbers just went, went flying up.

That's where it sort of went.

I can do this.

This is this.

Like this is gonna be a thing.

Yeah.

This can, yeah.

It's just scarier than stand on that train platform, I think.

Yeah.

And it's one thing I remember big achievement is use Shopify

for your store, but you've got that little plaque for Yeah.

The, a certain amount of orders, a little lamb that you've, um, yeah.

Done.

Which a hundred thousand.

A hundred thousand.

Yeah.

And that was, that wasn't like yesterday.

That was a little while ago now, wasn't it?

Yeah.

I think it's, it was start the year, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeez.

Didn't even know.

Didn't even know about it.

Didn't even track.

Just came through and Yeah.

It was just like, pop, it's, yeah.

Nice little, nice little humble sort of.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, and it's, it's hard to always say you can never have

that many people that are wrong.

I mean, you absolutely can.

Yeah.

Um, but what you can't do is, is Oh, maybe someone can, but fake

reviews, you know, your reviews are very genuine that you have Yeah.

You know, you've got hundreds and hundreds of reviews across the site.

Yeah.

Which are predominantly all five stars as well.

Yeah.

Which is.

A big accolade to hold of.

Yeah.

You know, we've got out a made a business and it's, um, it's actually

enjoyed by the lads and a hundred thousand separate orders is Yeah.

It's crazy.

Phenomenal.

Yeah.

I can't even work.

I can't even work that out.

I don't even, I mean, I remember when we first were

like getting an order every day.

I'm like, wow.

Yeah.

Like an order every day.

This is so cool.

Like, I mean, we, we've now been, I think every year for over four

years an order every single day.

And, and that to me is important.

Same four years because that includes Christmas Day.

Yeah.

We've had someone order for the last four Christmas.

It's Christmas day.

Does anybody order off you on Christmas day?

Yes, we do actually.

You do put it on Christmas Day.

Yeah.

I've never thought about it like that.

Like I said.

Yeah.

It's not about the how many orders, but yeah.

If you say like 365 days a year, someone's ordering from your site, then Yeah.

Yeah.

That's quite, that's quite a nice way to think.

Why, why would people, this is so off topic.

Why would people order from contact coffee on Christmas day?

Because.

Bought something.

This shit.

Or gift cards?

Uh, gift cards, yeah, maybe gift cards.

Uh, or they've been given some stuff or, yeah, I dunno, we're

still active in social media.

It is just, I know people might see it as an opportunity to go,

oh yeah, I'll get some more.

But yeah, love, I've got no idea.

We get, we get orders.

You probably get the same like two o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

And what are you doing at, I know what's happen in the why,

why are you on that website?

Yeah.

What, why are you that sometimes if it's real, if us good or

bad, that people doing that.

And when you see like, big orders come through and you're like, wow.

Like, yeah.

These, and these, our customer basically, you know, they're not millionaires

with, with loads of spare money.

This is real, real la real women that are spending their hard

earned money on our businesses.

How does that make you feel knowing that people are, that they're, yeah.

Choosing you over a Starbucks or going to, I find it weird sometimes,

especially when you go face to face.

You must get it as well as that.

Like, you sort of talk to these people and they're like, try and

give 'em a bit of a sales pitch.

And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don't really think about it.

And then they'll drop like 50, 60 quid on you and you just feel like.

You've gotta earn that money.

You've given it to me.

Like, obviously you, you respect your own products in this and you

just think you like it that much.

Is it, is it worth that much?

So, yeah.

And it's really odd, odd feeling we can become a bit

detached from our own products.

Yeah.

Anyway.

Like we know they're good.

Yeah.

Um, and I only go as far as to say, because we make them, we

pride ourselves on what we do.

But recent years I used to buy my own products and now I'm

like, actually no, I'm doing it.

And that was a huge point for me to be like, I'm gonna, I'm taking what I want.

Yeah.

Now, so I give myself like, I don't wanna say unlimited amount of supply.

I mean, most of the time we've used stuff at events.

I'm taking we drugs of it.

But Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that was a huge part for me.

Do you get high on your own Stash?

Always.

Apart, apart from to that, apart from today, we're gonna blame Leah.

Please.

Yeah.

Um, actually my partners now, now we do, to be fair.

We do.

Yeah.

It's, and that perks, that's testament to how good, and not just a perk

because it's free because you, you, you finitely like, it, you like

what you, you make, which, yeah.

You know how many.

Big coffee manufacturers do you think use their own stuff, especially

ones that make freeze dried product.

They probably don't use their own stuff though.

It is.

Um, what, what is your go-to blend?

Uh, so it's probably bottle prep, which is our sort of, um, all our,

especially, so I drink it out a proper special machine so it cooks

like milk, cooks, fruit really well.

Yeah.

Um, I don't, I'd like to say I use the bags, but I'm never really in situation

where I need to use a bag as much.

No.

But when, when we were serving, I've, I've used them everywhere, so I've

used them in Norway, I've used them in the jungle, used 'em in deserts.

Um, yeah, they've been used everywhere.

Those bags.

Let's, um, let's talk you through the products that you have.

I mean, there's a few, but I'll go, go through your different

blends that you have, first of all.

Yeah.

Uh, so we've got Red on, which is our high caffeine.

So it got voted third strongest coffee in the uk.

I think, um, above a lot of people, a lot of brands that pop up on Instagram

as sponsored, claiming that their strongest coffee, but they're not.

So I'll leave that on there.

Uh, yeah, that's Indian robust, uh, really dark roast.

It's, it's not the best tasting in coffee because of the high caffeine

content, but it's, that's what you get.

If you're on the high caffeine content coffee, then it's not gonna

be the best tasting in coffee.

Uh, we've got battle prep, uh, after hours shots fired.

I'm gonna forget some of these in a minute.

Uh, and then we've got a few other ones as well.

We've got a, a nice, uh, collaboration blend, uh, called Buy Sea by

land with Bobblehead barista.

So he's a navy diver.

Uh, little small ba batch roastery.

Uh, we got chatting, just thought there's something there at a nice play on words.

And yeah, he's created us a nice small batch of roast.

Um, and yeah, like our bag, our bags, which is, uh, our number one seller,

which was act, actually an accident.

So myself and my business partner, I sent some samples.

Uh, and then when we got together, we tried them, but then we also

got drunk at the same time.

And then we ordered them.

And at the time we were outsourcing our fulfillment to

this, just this lad that we know.

And he rung us off and said like, there's a, there's a pallet here for you.

And at the time, like we'd never had a pallet worth of

goods, do you know what I mean?

It was always like a few boxes.

So a pallet.

We've never, never had a pallet before, obviously.

We were like, oh, fucking hell, we're flying now.

Yeah.

Sent us pitching and we were like, we didn't even know what they were.

And we'd obviously ordered them and we were drunk and we were just like,

shit, this is, this is a lot for us, like what we're gonna do with it.

And they, they just took off like, yeah.

I mean they're a perfect product for people within the military or travel.

Like I said, lads can take 'em into the field.

If you're traveling, you can take 'em to hotel rooms.

You're a bit short cash or you're in a rush rather than

spending four at Starbucks.

You just, and it's better coffee, you get tarbucks.

It's generally better coffee.

Yeah.

People always pleasantly surprised.

I think.

They always think, oh, it's gonna be a bit shit.

But yeah, we always get that sort of, oh, it's better than

I thought it was gonna be.

Which I dunno if compliment or not, you know?

Um, so it sounds like business is, is good and going well, has it always been easy?

You know, just, it sounds like.

Oh, you make coffee.

So coffee.

Everyone wants to buy it.

It's pretty easy.

Like there can't be any hardship surely.

Yeah.

Smirk in your face.

Uh, yeah.

I think about any business, it's just, it's carnage, isn't it?

It's bit, bit like a swan, isn't it?

Like nice and elegant and calm the top and yeah.

Fucking legs going, feet go mad dude.

Yeah.

Carnage.

Um, yeah.

Natural ups and downs.

Seasonality a little bit.

We don't, obviously a bit quieter in the summer, but we just try

and make, go right around that.

Um, obviously COVID we did very well after COVID just, it was like a slide, like

the, like some turned the lights off, just people just stopped 'cause they wanted

to actually go to the shop to buy stuff.

So we had to deal with that.

And obviously sort of spending in areas where you think are gonna go

well, like just general business mistakes, putting money where you

think's gonna go well, it's, it doesn't, um, and obviously you've got staff,

you've got the issues with staff.

Um, and you, you said about people going to shops, you, you've had

a shop as well, haven't you?

Yeah.

And a, a Land rover, a little mobile place.

Yeah.

Yep.

Didn't go too well.

It did, and it didn't, uh, didn't go as well as I thought.

Uh, in hindsight, running a coffee shop and running an online business,

regardless of what you're selling, it's, it's two totally different things.

Just because you've got an online coffee company doesn't mean you're

gonna be good at in a coffee shop.

I didn't know how to run a coffee shop.

Were you in there running the coffee shop yourself?

No, I wasn't outsourcing.

Well, not outsourcing as in, I had people working 'cause obviously

still had the website, so I was trying to manage all that.

But yeah, it's, you know, again, hindsight, it's, yeah, probably shouldn't

have done that, but in a way you sort of wanted to grow and the next, next thing

was sort of, oh, we should, we should open shop 'cause people want come and see us.

And obviously we wouldn't have made that decision if it, we hadn't

convinced ourself it was the right one.

But yeah, in hindsight probably wasn't the best decision.

Probably should have invested that cash sort of back into the main quarter

of business, which is, is online.

But yeah, I've learned a lot since then.

So yeah, if I had my time again, I'll do Yeah.

And it, you know, it's easy to say like, could or should've would've, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's, yeah.

If you, you don't know until you've tried it.

No, exactly.

You know, some of the things we do, all of the markets is we should never do that.

And it's been some of the best stuff that we've, we've done.

So, you know, and it's kudos to you try these things where you're

like, actually this might work.

Yeah.

Might not work, but until you've done it yourself, you,

you don't truly know, do you?

And they, they could have been brilliant.

You could have had a contact coffee shop in every single quarter of the country.

Exactly.

It could have been the best thing we could have done.

It could have been a massive franchise.

It could have, it could have been the one, but it just Why do you think it wasn't?

Um, I don't think, I think I stretch myself too much.

I think stretch of business too much.

I tried to do too much on my own.

Um, I didn't give it enough respect.

I probably ego probably thought, oh, it'll be okay 'cause we've

got the brand and stuff like that.

Um.

I think that they're probably the main reasons why I didn't

really plan it that well either.

Again, I was just sort of essentially how we started, you sort of cuffed

it, I mean, cuffing that way, didn't really know what we were doing and I

think I tried to cuff that as well.

But yeah, it just sort of bit me in the ass.

So, yeah.

Not, not planning it well enough, just, yeah.

Trying to blank it.

But yeah, I definitely got caught out on that.

So, so the coffee shop is no more, no more.

It's, it's gone.

Yeah.

How is that as a business, uh, and as a business owner to, to take that, because

that's a, it's a pretty big L to Yeah.

Have a physical like flagship store.

Yeah.

To then, yeah.

Yeah.

I'm gonna wind this down.

Or is it a, you've got swallow your pride and make the right business decision now?

It was hard because everything's sort of not been dramatic, sort of sort

falling down all at the same time.

So we obviously had, we had that, we had the Land Rover, the shop

wasn't doing that well, the Land Rover wasn't doing that well.

I'd had loads of staff.

At one point we had, like, you had 10 or 12 sort of s working for us, and

then like a manager, and then obviously the online dried up and then obviously

the cashflow dries up and then all of a sudden you're just like, ah, fuck it.

Just all at once.

It sort of starts happening.

Then you have to have hard decisions, sort of have to have these conversations

with staff, letting them go.

Then you have to decide, right, okay, now's the time to stop.

Cut my losses on the shop.

And then, yeah, it all started happening all together and it was just one

big, over a couple of months where it was just pushing, pushing that it

was, it was definitely pushing me.

And then yeah, sort of within that year it just sort of went and I went, bang.

Yeah.

Pretty hard, pretty fast.

It's again, yeah.

Again, it's pretty admirable to, to you to stand there and say, yeah, hard stop.

Yeah.

Protect the business.

Yeah.

You know, because you've got a good business, you know?

Yeah.

There's, you've a hundred thousand orders.

People obviously like what you're doing.

You've still got customers coming in.

You've had to adapt and I think.

Where, and I've seen it personally, friends businesses where they,

they don't have that ability that, that moral courage to Yeah.

To make a good business decision.

And they, they think with their heart too much and they're, yeah.

To, oh, this might be embarrassing.

Oh, someone's gonna think I failed.

Like, you gotta, yeah.

Stop caring what other people think to 'cause if not, if you

hadn't, it stopped contact coffee.

Would it be fair to say might not be here, you said?

Yeah, haven't done that.

I'm surprised it's this, you know, some of the stuff that went on in

the background as well and Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just, I dunno, I honestly dunno how, and like, having, dunno how,

honestly, at some points it's just, it was just like, yeah, a lot going

on, A lot of pressure on yourself.

And like you said, I've got a business partner, but he's still serving

and I was basically running it.

So lots of decisions.

Well, all the decisions are on me, so every right decision that

we make, it's sort of like, oh, that's my idea to get that product.

But every wrong decision it's like.

I can't put the finger anywhere.

It's just showing all the wrong decisions were me.

But it's, yeah, it is tough.

And you know, there, there isn't, there isn't a wrong decision

because Yeah, you're still here now.

So it wasn't wrong, it was just, it didn't make money.

Yeah.

You know, you're still here trading, doing well.

Yeah.

Or orders are still coming in every day.

Yeah.

And it's not like one or two orders that are coming in.

Neither is it, you know?

Yeah.

It's, give yourself some kudos that, that's true.

Yeah.

You're still doing very well online.

Like still, still crushing.

And again, when I started Combat Fuel, so we were started podcast,

we're gonna talk about combat fuel.

We, um, I looked up to you guys, you and your business partner, you know, you, you

traveled down to, at the time I had a gym.

I'm like, I'm doing this.

And you were sort of like, what's this then?

Yeah.

Us it's gym and um, self support builder.

Yeah.

Uh, and we had, um, turned around and said, oh, can we,

um, take some battle prep?

Yeah.

Can we make you a coffee flavored protein?

We had a, we had a co-branded product for a little, didn't we?

Which was, which was pretty cool.

That's a while ago.

That, isn't it?

So yeah, that was 2019.

That was pre COVID, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

Trying to think.

Yeah.

Pre COVID.

Yeah.

Yeah, pre COVID, which was, that's crazy.

Which was, yeah.

Wild.

So, you know, been good friends with you as well for Yeah,

for a long time and more so.

So sometimes your business partner, depending on the jobs

demand for, for you and him.

Yeah.

And where you've been, you said there's been a few challenges, and I don't want

to delve too deep into what you're allowed to say or not, but people haven't always

performed the way they should have done.

No.

And what I want to touch on is in the military, you know, we have guys that we

work with, which we know exactly how we're gonna, whether we like them as a character

and a person in the outside world or not.

We know that if there's a job to do that job's being done.

But that hasn't been the case, has it?

No.

Not quite, um, say what you want on that and no, no pressure,

what you can or can't say.

I think it's a military thing.

I think it's even, even more like a boot neck thing.

I think boot necks really, really trust each other and it's, I just expect like

it's, as soon as someone says like, I was a boot neck straight away without

him meeting him, like, I can trust him.

Like it's, again, I know it is a military thing, but like it's really instilled

in you in the bit within the core.

Um, so I think we just, we trust everyone and too many people 'cause we just expect

them to do their side, do that, like their side of the deal sort of thing.

So we, we definitely over trusted, um, and got bit hard, really, really hard when

it came to our financial side of things.

So our accounting.

Um, so a lot of things were sort of hidden from us, weren't, wasn't doing

the job that we were paying them to do.

And uh, yeah, once we uncovered everything.

Was like, yeah, a lot, a lot of shit.

And again, that's, that was part of off the back end of all the shops back end

of all getting into the staff back end of like sales dipping and then finding out

all this sort of like financial issues.

And it was just, it was all on me.

You know what I mean?

One day sort of stood there in the office just like, like a rabbit in headlights.

Just like, oh shit.

Fuck.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

And then that's where all then all of a sudden stump stuff start coming out in the

back of your head and you're just like, this wouldn't have happened if I, I'd past

the trees and do you know what I mean?

It's just all this like, all just snowballs into, into one and yeah.

And then some, it's just you're never gonna cope and it just, just goes bang.

Yeah.

But you did cope ish.

Took, took a me, took me a good year.

So what happened was, uh, I sort of recognized all this was Yeah.

Had I couldn't, yeah, I had had an episode that lasted about a week, which I couldn't

even tell you what happened that week.

It was like, uh, it was like just being drunk.

I was sober throughout it all.

But yeah, it was just essentially a mental breakdown for about a week.

Um, just getting shoved in front of doctors and family coming round.

And yeah, like I said, I couldn't even tell you what my whereabouts that week.

It was just a surreal, surreal, surreal moment.

Um, yeah, people around me, obviously, obviously helping, just sort of like, got

through all that and, uh, yeah, just sort of trying to ask, ask myself a lot of

questions like, like how did I get here?

What's, what's actually the trigger point to it?

Is it, is that the trigger point or is it that not working or is it that person?

Yeah, just trying to deal with stuff.

But, so I I, I basically be sort of moved away from the business

for a year, but I still run it.

So to a long story short, sort of realize that the main pressure on the business was

obviously myself needing a wage and stuff.

Like I hadn't paid myself for like a few months and obviously the

pressures at home started carrying up and just having a newborn baby and.

It was all, everything and everything happened that week.

Um, so yeah, so I decided to sort of step out from the business, uh, and

then an opportunity came up within SEO.

Um, so I took that job and then sort of ran contact coffee as again, as a bit

of a, going a little bit backwards, but ran it as like a side project and had

someone stepping in, sort of did the day to day stuff and that, and that.

You can hard stop me at any point you want.

That was

Mr. X was very good.

We dealt with him for our ordering.

He's running the business for you.

Yeah.

Helping it grow.

Doing really well.

Yeah.

That was the answer to Yeah.

A lot of problems.

Yep.

Mr. X is amazing.

Yep.

Mr. XL did the job.

Uh, so yeah, so that all, that all went to shit.

Um, why wouldn't it?

Yeah.

Why it wouldn't.

Of course it did.

Of course it did.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So that's something else I've dealt with of in two months ago.

About two months in for that one now.

Yeah.

So.

So that sort of, that big pop that happened, that was sort of, that's

what, two, two and a half years ago.

So then, uh, I'd just stepped outta the SEO role full-time, uh,

about three months ago actually.

So I was like ready to come back into contact, coffee, like full-time.

Everything had semi got sorted back to normal.

And yeah, the only member of staff had a massive issue with that.

So I've just been dealing with that the past sort of month and two months.

But I think from the, and it was, I don't think it's appropriate to say it on No.

On this, but it was bad.

It, it was bad.

Yeah.

I mean, even for, I mean, in the military we love to do things and

anyone at seven, you can imagine what like your block parties are alike.

That we always remove our, our clove.

Yeah.

And we get very broy.

It was like that on crack.

Yeah.

It was crazy.

Like Mors would've been, mortars would've been shocked.

Mortars would've been shocked.

Yeah.

Martha would've been shocked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Carnage.

Absolute carnage.

A long time.

All of this is going on as well.

Like you're, you're also like touching you as a individual,

like still a wicked athlete and you, um, you do a lot of running.

I do, yeah.

Yeah.

So I've always tried to keep my eye in with it.

So I think, I think when I put my chit in, I think, uh, I was like, right,

I need something to work towards.

So didn't lie in man, as you do, as you do, even though I was a boot

neck, I wasn't the best swimmer, so I actually had to learn how to swim.

But yeah, done the Ironman and then in between sort of like little

competitions, like marathons here and there and stuff like, and then did

that London marathon and then done the whole little high rock stuff as well.

And then, yeah, did an ultra in France Moin last summer, um, Moin, how,

where, where was the Ironman and and what time did you get Ironman Bolton?

I actually can't remember the time that I got.

Uh, yeah, I can't remember.

I heard it was like seven hours.

Oh.

Like I've basically done it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, uh, that was graph to be fair.

I, I enjoyed the whole thing, but yeah, I haven't touched the bike since it's

done been shit for like two years now.

Um, yeah, I like the old Ultra thing I'm getting into that.

Um, that's like an age thing, but I'd just like to think about the ultras

that I like is not connected to, to any phones and laptops, you know?

I mean, you're a slave to a phone when you've got a business and stuff, and

it's just nice to, it's absolutely enforced, constantly enforced break.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I like, I like doing it.

I like not listening to music.

I like just getting out and about.

So yeah, getting into the ultras, like I said, the high rock stuff and

then, um, yeah, doing, doing the bed on Backyard Ultra as well in May.

Awesome.

You're a boot neck though.

You gonna do the I've had to do the backyard.

I had to do the tactical.

I never know.

Good man.

Man.

I was looking forward to doing it because I really wanted

to, to do it and try it out.

And then, um, as soon as we bought out that tactical version, I was just.

Fuck's sake.

And I, I literally dropped a message and he was pretty much like,

yeah, you can't do the normal one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've had to further tell him on the normal one, do the thing.

So yeah.

I'm just trying to think of excuses going, ah, it's been, it's been

five years since the carried weight.

Yeah.

I've already, I've already done a few token runs.

Love it.

Life's been pretty testing for you.

Yeah.

And it's almost fair to say that it was simpler when you were serving.

It is simple down the pool.

It's a simple life.

Simple life.

You know what you gotta do, where you gotta be and it's a

simple whatever level you're at.

Whereas you're a private in the infantry up to UKSF Right place,

right time, right kit, right attitude.

Yep.

And it things just happen.

Yeah.

It's different levels of pressure though, isn't it?

I mean, like I said, you've got the pressures of having millions of

pounds worth of kit to your name.

The pressures of you being the only person that's like the in between,

between what's happening on the ground and what's happening back there.

That's pressure.

Then there's the other side pressures you've got.

10 young girls working for you.

You've got coffee shops.

Yeah.

You've got the stock.

Do you know what I mean?

It's, which is less, it's just pressure.

It just moves.

Just moves around.

Which is less stressful being on ops.

Yeah.

Um, ops Review, K Fops, also dealing with those people.

Honestly, I haven't had that much stress for a few kids in the mix.

Yeah.

I've never been, like, I've never really had a breakdown and quite strong

mentally, and it's only since having all this happening SI honestly think

it's easier just being in the military.

Yeah.

Even though you get that, those high pressure situations and stuff.

But yeah.

I've never felt this, that level of stress before.

It, it is crazy.

Someone that looks up to you and what you've achieved.

Like it's, and when you've told me some of the things that have

happened before, it's like, yeah.

Jesus, can this guy catch a break?

And it's, yeah.

It's coman, it starts, you do feel so for yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Why me?

You know?

Yeah.

Literally.

Why me?

Like, and it's, yeah.

But also like the businesses give us the freedom to, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

No one's telling us what to do.

Yeah.

And we are like, we own our success.

Yeah.

You know, if, if we're gonna make it, then it's because we've, whatever

we've done has made it so, you know.

Yeah.

We are the result of, of the effort we put in.

Um, unfortunately, other people can be a player in that.

Either negatively.

Yeah.

Or positively.

But what I'd like to know now is what's, what's a normal day for, you

know, we're here on a, a Wednesday.

I don't even, what day?

It's, what day is it?

Thursday?

Wednesday.

Wednesday.

Wednesday.

Wednesday.

Thursday.

Thursday.

That's nice, isn't it?

So it's Saturday, a Thursday afternoon.

Yeah.

In a unit.

And if you can see the behind the cameras, it's just we we're sat in our warehouse.

Yeah.

We are full of, full of stock.

Which, what's a normal day for you?

Uh, so normal day now is, um.

I'll sort sort kids out in the morning.

Um, so I'll have drop 'em off at school and nursery or two

days I'll, I'll be in the gym.

First thing I have to get training, like first thing in the morning, sort

of try and plan my week around training.

So yeah, I'm having in the gym first thing in the morning or dropping the kids off.

Uh, then I'm in the office.

Um, and then, yeah, it's a bit of a mix now because I'll sort

do a lot of SEO work privately.

Um, so I've got a few private clients, so I'm working on those.

And then I'm then dealing with like the contact coffee stuff, just

what's sort of going on there, like new products, checking up on stock,

um, looking at the marketing piece.

So because I've got so much into marketing recently with the SEO

and um, all the online piece, I'm trying to take all that experience

learned back into contact coffee.

So I'm sort of just keeping an eye on everything like

that, seeing what we can do.

Um, and then obviously trying to build some other little projects that

I'm trying to build up alongside.

So I still think.

If you're entrepreneurial, it's, the thing is never good enough.

You always wanna do something on the side.

Yeah.

I think that's good and bad because obviously I think people say all

your, it's positivity and your, your attention should be on one

thing, but there's always, oh, why can't I, cannot I build that there?

But there's, and there's, it's 24 hours in a day, you know?

Yeah.

I think you're the same as me.

It's different having, having kids as well.

Yeah.

But I'm like, if I'm not working like 16 hours a day, I'm like, what do I do?

I get bored.

I start getting a little bit, like, dare I say like depressed, like I

need to be doing something all the time, like 5, 5 30 in the morning.

Although today, I'm not gonna lie, I got out at bed at eight o'clock.

I looked at my watch and I thought, ah, nah, why not?

Luke's gonna, you sent me a voice note.

I went back to bed for half an hour.

But normally, you know, get up early, get going, getting stuff done.

There's always been a lot of stress.

And you've got a little one.

How old is your little one at the moment?

So I've got two, two.

So I've got 5-year-old girl and a 3-year-old boy.

How, how do you be a dad and a partner?

Yeah.

Dealing with the amounts of stress you have, like you said, a whole

week, like you, you couldn't even remember where you were from.

Yeah.

'cause you described it a mental breakdown.

Yeah.

How can you be those other things whilst dealing with all of that?

No idea.

I need to know the answer.

I dunno.

I think you just, it's just when they natural things, you just sort of step up.

And I think it just happens.

Like you said, if you, if you think about it, if someone's like, right,

you're gonna have a kid there and you're gonna do this, you'd be like, oh.

You know?

But if you just, if it just happens, so in the military, you just, just deal with it.

You get given a situation, you're just like, oh, this is, this is us now.

This is what you've gotta do.

But there's times where it all it, like, it does, it all does all just compound.

Like I said, like the past two months, you know what's happened the past two

months and then all that's happened.

You've still got a home, you've still got the kids, you've still got swimming

lessons, you've still got Yeah.

To go shopping.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, you've still gotta do all this stuff.

It doesn't stop.

Yeah.

It's, it just makes your life a bit more interesting.

I don't, I don't know how you do it.

Honestly.

I think anyone that's parent is some weeks.

Yeah, I've got, got no idea.

Again, there's those sort of weeks.

Yeah.

People step in and they, they got good network around you.

We wouldn't be able to do it on our own.

But yeah, I think, I think you just deal with it, mate.

I think everyone would, even if you sit there and think,

oh, I could never do that.

You do find a, find a wife, you just happens.

Yeah.

I think it's just instinct and it's, and something I touch and briefly from

that is, is we always find a way, and I don't wanna set anything off of you.

Um, sometimes as myself, sometimes the guys and girls, they don't do they?

Yeah.

They don't enjoy.

Um, has that even been something that's crossed your mind or any friends that

are, have not been able to endure themselves and are no longer here?

Oh, okay.

I know what you mean.

Um, luckily, no.

I'm very lucky that no one close has gone that way.

Uh, I think.

That period that week that we spoke about.

I really struggled that week.

And I think, I think that's what, that's what scared me the most is because

I got to mid thirties, like perfect.

Do you know what I mean?

Never even, couldn't even entertain like any foot sort of thought like that.

And then that sort of happening and that thought being in there, just, it

last lasted about eight months really.

It was really, really strange period.

And I think that's what, like, that scared me a little bit to answer your question.

Yeah.

I'm lucky that no one around has, has sort of gone that way.

Um, but yeah, very aware that it, it's happening.

Very aware that it's getting a bit closer.

Do you know what I mean?

It's sort of like, okay, I recognize that name.

Yeah.

Or, oh, actually I remember him like back in 40.

I, you know what I mean?

It's sort of, it's a scary time with stuff like that.

Um, I just think if, if everyone's there to support each other.

I think it's actually taken it as well.

Like I said, like when you're in that situation, everyone's offering, offering

the hand, you don't wanna take it.

It's probably a bit of personal pride thing, a bit of an ego thing.

You're like, I don't need it.

I don't need it.

But if we, we use you as an example, you know, and it's not quite the same, but in

shutting the coffee shop down, like Yeah.

Better to swallow your pride in your business.

Survive.

And if you'd flip that to anyone that is suffering or struggling, like

swallow your pride and well, that's it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, world's a better place with, with everyone in it, in it, isn't it?

Exactly.

So it's um, percent on that as well.

If you got any advice for your younger self, what if you were

now that guy, he's 20 years old.

Yep.

Getting down to limestone.

Yeah.

Knowing a rollercoaster and, uh, they call it, yeah.

We'll call it a rollercoaster.

Definitely.

Of what life's gonna be.

Yeah.

What's one piece of advice that you'd give your younger self?

I think talk Never talked.

Never talked until last year.

Just generally, I dunno if that's a bloke thing or a personal thing, but yeah, I

think the talking thing helps and it is that cliche and it's hard when you're

in that situation 'cause they're like, oh, you just need to talk to someone.

And you're like, just fuck off.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, sometimes it's not the right time to talk, but I think just

talking, if anything, I found it easy talking to people that I didn't know.

I found that, I found it hard talking to people.

Like I say, like your mates are always there and stuff like that.

People work differently.

But for me, I found it easier walking into a room with circular chairs.

People, people I never knew.

I, and I've probably told them strangers more things than I'd ever

tell Mrs. My mates, my parents.

So I think just find, find what's right for you.

But I think the talking bit helps, but just work out what works for

you because everyone's different.

Brilliant.

Like that's advice.

Would you change anything from your, your life anywhere, any point?

Uh, military contact, coffee.

Um,

no, I don't think so.

I don't think I'd change anything from a life, from business wise.

Yeah.

But yeah, in hindsight and stuff, but what, there'd been impossible decisions.

'cause what I know now, I didn't know then.

So realistically I couldn't have done anything.

But I think that, again, like too, like technical and into it, but I

think I'd have reinvested more into the, the core business as opposed

to trying to grow too quickly.

Um, I think, yeah, I, I'd have just concentrated on the one

main thing being the online.

Just keep reinvesting into that and definitely outsourcing to

people that are better than you.

Yeah.

Which I've only just learned b listed the past, past five months.

And if we go to the military again, like why would, why would you go on ops

and try and drive the vehicle yourself?

Breach the door yourself and do your own comms.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, and then it a business.

Why would we do our own emails?

Why would we do our own ads?

Why would we do our own content?

Yeah.

We, we shouldn't.

'cause your ego and you trying save cash.

Yeah.

It's hard.

It's, it's not nice.

It's, it's hard though though.

It's not easy spending cash.

Yeah.

And do you still see like, contact coffees?

Money is like that.

That's your money.

Like I'm, I'm spending my money on that.

Why?

If it doesn't work?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Especially when the overhead start getting bigger.

But I think you've gotta take scary, isn't it?

You gotta take a little bit of risk.

I think now I'm probably a bit more educated of it with that risk and, and

to be like it at the end of the day.

And it's easy to say.

'cause I think we've both been here, we've both had highs and lows.

It's fair to say like, it it is only money.

Yeah.

We've got our health.

Yeah.

We've got our families.

Exactly.

If the business, God forbid, didn't work, yeah.

Then we, we've still got those things, you know, and we'd just reset, realize,

and re-engage and something different.

It'd be devastating, don't get me wrong, but yeah, wouldn't.

I think, I think that's where I've, I've got now, I had this conversation

last night really, is that I think again, we like combat fuel.

It's, you say it's yours, it's part of you, and there's,

there's a bit of like ego thing.

You don it to fail.

I think now that I've, I've passed all that the past year and just being

a bit more black and white about it is if it didn't happen, I, I actually

think I'd be pretty contentious to go.

Right.

That was that draw line under it.

Right.

It's a new project.

I think I've become, yeah.

Not distant from it, but I think I understand that it's just, well, yeah.

At the end of the day, it's just a business.

It's just money.

I can go do something else.

Yeah.

And I think that's probably encouraged a bit more strategic risk taking.

If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, which ultimately

allows for even more growth.

So it's, you know, it's, I'm glad these bad things have happened to you because

it, it's allowed you to step into it and, you know, contact coffee's not

a little small coffee shop selling.

The wrong way there, didn't I?

You know what I mean?

I know what you mean.

You're not sending a bag of coffee a day, you know?

Yeah.

Like, there, there's still hundreds of orders going out constantly.

Yeah.

Which is fantastic to see.

Yeah.

Um, selfishly now we are gonna be like, I use your products.

You also use a few of ours.

Yeah.

Um, especially if you're running.

Yeah.

What, what do you use and why?

Oh, you've said this 'cause I can't say it.

Cycling.

Cycling.

Dex D Dex.

Yeah.

That's, that's the one that I use.

I use that all the time.

So yeah.

I've been using for all the ultra stuff, so I was using that, uh, hydrate.

Uh, and also creatine.

Uh, I'm using the flavored one now.

I love it.

Yeah.

With such princesses now.

Yeah.

And I've got the, uh, biscuit brown protein that I've been having every night.

Oh, that's good.

In my, uh, jar biscuit.

Biscuit.

But it's biscuit brown and jabs biscuit brown.

It's biscuit brown and jabs.

So Yeah.

But yeah, mainly that, that's cycling.

Cyclics.

Thick.

Thick.

That one thick.

That's, that's the best.

That's honestly the best one I've used.

Yeah.

So I use that all for my ultras.

Um.

And meal.

Meal as well.

So I thought it was quite nice.

Yeah.

Another, another veteran owned as well, aren't they?

Yeah.

Good company.

Nice to see veterans doing something that's, that's different.

Uh, I'm not gonna say anything else on that.

It's nice to see veterans doing something that's, that's different.

Different and innovative, you know?

Definitely.

Which it is just pretty cool.

Yeah.

Where can people find contact?

Coffee?

You know, like, it's pretty obvious.

Yeah.

But we've gotta say it anyway.

My see ads on down to Google, type in sort of contact coffee or any sort of term.

But yeah, online, um, you can obviously buy through our Instagram shop.

We're also on Shopify shop, um, and yeah, through Facebook, all our

links, so yeah, just generically online contact coffee.com.

Nice.

Any, any future plans for contact coffee for a physical store?

Again, I, I, after all that conversation I do, I do keep thinking,

especially when you walk into this place now and you're like, that'd

be all right if we could do this.

Yeah.

But, uh, yeah.

No, there's no, there's no appetite for that.

No.

I don't think, uh, always open for conversations with other people.

But yeah, I think again, just concentrating what we know and perhaps

like doing your own fulfillment with a coffee shop in the front of it.

That was always the plan.

Um, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not closing that down.

Yeah.

We, again, a similar setup to what you've got here, but just have a

coffee shop at the front of it, not being someone pops in, they

can have a coffee, try the coffee.

Yeah.

But yeah, at the minute it's just solely online as, uh, travel

and fight as light as we can.