My name's Anthony Cole Gibson, MVO.

I served 26 years for Queen, and then subsequently it's Majesty the King.

Let's go into detail for it.

I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit there on the Duke of Burg's

funeral, but what, what a pivotal role you did play like stubbornness too.

Proud to, to talk about

taking benefit.

Got to that stage.

Guys, welcome to the Combat Fuel podcast.

This is quite a special one for anybody, not just the military guys.

So we are joined today by Tony Gibson, MVO.

He'll discuss what this is later if you don't know.

He has helped to organize and played a pivotal role in the Duket Duke of

Edinburgh's funeral, queen Elizabeth's funeral, and the King's coronation.

This guy is insane.

Like he, I'm just gonna put you straight over to him.

Tony, thank you for your service.

Thank you for everything you've done for our country.

And please introduce yourself.

Hello everyone.

So as Alex said, my name's Anthony Carl Gibson, MVO.

I served 26 years for Queen, and then subsequently is Majesty the King.

And I am now a CrossFit coach and looking to start with Greater Manchester Fire

and Rescue in the new year of 2026.

Brilliant stuff, brilliant stuff.

Tony, if i's right to call you, Tony, you've led your adult

life of service to the country.

But let's take you back to where it all began.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in a small town called Blackburn in Lancashire.

Most of the times when you're describing where that is, you have

to tell people that it's a, from a Beatles song with all the potholes

or that it's close to Manchester, and then they have an understanding

geographically where you are.

And growing up there with a single mom three other siblings, a twin sister

an older sister, and a and a brother.

She worked very hard, obviously to, to put food and clothes on our back and probably

gave it the drive and the understanding about hard work and, and what I needed to

do to achieve what I ultimately did in the Army, obviously following in her footsteps

has taken on every type of job role that you could imagine to, to facilitate

looking after a family that size.

And then, yeah, I'd never left Blackburn until I'd joined the Army.

So that was the very first time I'd boarded a train.

It was quite tough growing up.

Obviously we didn't have a lot, we definitely didn't have holidays

and some people have, have had similar experiences, but, you know,

she did what she could for us.

And then that, as I say, gave me that, that drive to, to try and

provide and do better for myself.

Phenomenal woman.

Army.

Army helped me achieve that.

Was your dad present at all?

Nope.

No.

No.

He left when I was about one and a half coming up for two years old.

Never met him.

He came back into our lives in later life.

My twin sister went to see him when he was diagnosed with cancer and obviously

passed away very quickly after that.

But other than her seeing him, I never entertained it.

He just was a, a non-entity, so, no.

So your, your mum was a role model for you as well then growing up, you know,

she did everything, provided the life lessons and ability for you to, you know,

you maybe you wouldn't have joined the army without her and her leading guidance.

And you said you never had holidays or anything growing up,

and you said childhood was tough.

I mean, how, how tough was it?

I mean, depending on where everyone comes from, everyone's got different

experiences, but, you know, in the north on a council list there it was.

Pretty rough.

Obviously I wasn't endowed with the genes to be the fighter or, or any other piece.

I was quite wily, so I was quick.

But I had a, an awful tongue on me as well, so I could give a good

verbal licking to anybody, including the, the, the older people on the,

on the estate because I relied on that speed and ability to get away.

And yeah, I use that a lot.

It caught up with me a few times when people obviously hold

grudges, but you know, yeah, you get away with a lot as well.

And that's sort of the community from that estate that I grew up

on, so I was quite well known.

So some high levels of resilience already at a young age, would you say then?

Yeah, sort of that stuff was, was ingrained into you and built into you.

Those lessons.

You never get anything, you know, for free.

You obviously have to work for it.

So I pulled a paper round, I worked two paper rounds, I milk round.

And that was then just to help contribute to obviously the household as well.

So, so you, you gave the money you earned to your mum to help your,

your siblings get by the, that piece from the milk round went to my mum

and I kept my paper round money.

And that was to obviously contribute early on and that was, yeah,

just for, for betterment really.

How old were you at this time of your, your milk rounds and paper rounds?

Probably about 12, 13.

And I stopped that about 15 years old when I was entertaining the Army piece.

So at 12 years old and it's, you know, those lessons of carried on to ultimately

where we'll get to at the end of this the kind of guy that I think you are

today, you know, put in and thinking and of others, first to be it, your mum, the

soldiers that subsequently came under you guys that, and girls that needed help.

But I think that that may have been quite a pivotal role then, would you say?

Yeah.

You know, understanding that, that somebody else's need

is greater than your own.

Yeah.

That, so if it wasn't for a example, I wouldn't have, you know, been developed

as I had been that way inclined.

I just wouldn't have had that peace.

My granddad obviously my, my mother had a turbulent relationship with a,

an individual and a quite young age.

I'd watched her get beaten and then we moved in with my grandparents, who

subsequently you know, both passed.

And I never had, as I said, that male role model in there.

So mom had to work, you know, double hard, obviously with my sister trying her, her

best as well to, you know, toe the line as well as my older sister, you know,

forging her way into the nursing community as, as she was she'd stepped back from

taking care of us and, and I'd done a pretty good job for my mom in helping

us be raised while she was at work.

So, you know, quite thankful to, to my older sister and, and my brother that way.

But, you know, those lessons, as I say, were, were imparted

by my mum in the beginning.

So then at age 15, you know, you've already lived, dare I say it, more

than some adults at, at the time you are now considering joining the Army.

And before we get onto your reasons why, was it ever a thought, well, if I joined

the Army, I'm, I'm not gonna be at home, I'm not gonna be there for my mum and

my younger siblings to support them.

Was that a concern contemplating joining?

Not that way inclined, no.

Because at that stage I had, I think I'd made the decision that, that

Blackburn wasn't a place for me.

I've never regretted living away or not making Blackburn my home base.

It's quite hard to explain to, to old friends from those days.

Why?

'cause obviously a lot of them always wondered why I never came back, or I

only ever go to visit my mum, seeing my grandma and my granddad's grave.

I don't entertain Blackburn as a place unless it's a, for a football

result or something like that.

It's just, I wanted to, to separate myself from that, those days,

that hardship, that side of it.

It just make something new.

Nice.

That's why that happened.

Why did you ultimately join the Army?

Was it some recruitment videos, pictures, anything you'd seen that

was like, I wanna do that, or was it just a sense of, I mean, you

are a true patriot of the country.

Was it a sense of patriotism at that young age of I want to join and serve?

There was a, I mean, they don't do it anymore, but they used to

have soldiers in the schools.

So every Wednesday we'd do like the assault courses and that

sort of stuff in the gymnasium.

That was how the engagement used to work.

And obviously we had all the old school adverts, so 99.9% need not apply.

And unfortunately for the Marines at that time, 99.9% didn't.

But again, the old lights off advert, land rovers in the

trees, all that sort of stuff.

And yeah, I'd, I'd obviously gone in and I'd known where the recruiting office

was and they were always very personable, especially when they had the displays

right outside in Blackburn Talent Center on the High Street as it was in the,

what is now a Pedestrianized area.

Yeah, it'd always just been a fascination, all the old stories

from my granddad about the war.

He'd been part of obviously the Italy campaign with the Polish, working with the

Polish and was subsequently injured there.

And spent his time postwar in rehab in Italy.

So yeah, just listening to those stories and that way inclined

to always had that inkling.

But I just went in, I want to be in the Army.

I hadn't got a clue what I was doing.

When I went in to speak to the recruiting sergeant, that was probably the immaturity

and the inexperience about that.

And no one to really guide me in regards to like the decision

making process about entering.

I just wanted to be in the infantry.

That's all I said when I went in.

And then we went through all the different people.

So the power recruiting instructor, the infantry personnel that were in there.

Saw the s Scotts guard representative and then as it was the Queen's Lhi

rep. So yeah, I then caveated and went towards the power and the guard 'cause

they separated themselves in the office.

And I think that's just our history of infant hearing has been through my time.

And then ultimately led my decision to choosing the Scotts Guides.

But that came going to court as a, as a young, young man.

And should we should we touch on that?

Then I just got myself in trouble.

As you, do you get yourself in trouble at a young age?

And obviously I had to go to court, but the Scott Guard representative

came and said, I've been entertaining joining the army, and that would

be a better pathway for myself.

So I avoided everything.

You know, it was only community service and, and that, that

I'd be looking at and fine.

I hadn't got money to pay fines and all that sorts of business.

So because they assured me at that time loyalty like that, and the individual

that came down from the office, I thought, well, this is a pathway.

And ultimately as well as I said, let's get away from that trouble.

So the council is estate, and the, the group led me that way.

There was already somebody I was engaged with that was happy to

show me another path and, you know, all bravado out the way.

Once I got down into that pathway, as I said, reality struck and I was

like, oh my God, what am I doing?

I'm in training, like, and there was a time, as I said, I missed, missed home,

missed family, missed my mom, but it was my mom that gimme the reality check at

that time as my partner Laura knows all about those phone calls, so o obviously

back then it, it was very different.

There wasn't an iPhone in your locker to quickly ping mama WhatsApp.

How's it going?

So, I mean, how often did you get to speak to your mom throughout

training and, and was it difficult?

Very rare.

We had phone calls on Wednesday at the phone box and obviously you had to have

change, so you'd have to have been to I don't even think they do pay parades

anymore, but you got your paper parade and at that time we got seven pounds.

Then you had to buy your equipment, you know, usual stuff.

Ary equipment, polish, but you always made sure you had that

one pound 50 for that phone call.

I was quite fortunate I didn't smoke, you know, I didn't have any other expenditures

like some of the older people.

'cause I was, I was young 16 obviously at the time as a single soldier entry.

And I just remember standing there, all weathers didn't matter what it was

doing And just like we all know training areas in the British Army have their own

weather, weather systems pair bright.

It was exactly the same.

And I went to to training in the September and it was already snowing.

I stood there in the track suit, all weathers on that Wednesday just to, to put

that one pound 50 in just to phone home.

Was it, was it always your mom or did you ever to siblings?

It was always, oh, there was never anybody else there 'cause of the time of night.

Yeah.

And obviously, you know, at nine, 10 o'clock, whatever time that you got on

the phone, you know, you were always worried about the sergeant coming out

of the, the, you know, the old billet as it was there, you know, screaming at you

to get back in and obviously get by your bed parade ready for the, for lights out.

But never got to that.

And I'd phone up, tell her what was going on, what I was doing, break down in the,

in the phone box as many people did.

You know, I can't handle this.

There's too much going on.

There's people getting beaten up.

And the army was a very different time back where, back when you joined.

All of it compared to nowadays.

Yeah, I think that's the character building stuff of it as well.

People look on some of that, that treatment and the way that the army was

very direct, and if you talk to somebody outta place, you, you had to be able

to, to sort of back it up, you know?

And there were all different life lessons to learn, but getting smacked

in the mouth was, was a good one.

But that happened all the time.

I remember the first person that stepped up to the instructors at the

time, and, you know, he was a, a big fella himself, but he got absolutely

battered in front of everybody and on, you know, trainings, training,

and we were all training the infantry.

We were all big lads.

We were all wanting to be part of the infantry.

And unfortunately at that time, that's what it was all about.

But as they say now, chat shit get banged or you back it up.

And nowadays I think it's chat shit.

You get your knuckles wrapped, you can't do anything.

But that's a different story for a different day.

But training, so training was eventful or uneventful.

Did anything stand out happen of where you were like

training was eventful?

It was always eventful because, you know, had recently as it was then in

99, lost, you know, crown immunity, I think it was about 97 that he lost

crown immunity, if I remember back.

But you still used to do all the fun stuff that people remembered.

So the sand runs the two dress, you know, your, your locker parades,

everything that is like an old school story was still happening.

You were out in the mud runs and then you'd be cleaning all your equipment in

the bath, ironing it dry, and then hanging it again ready for the next morning.

But you only had three or four hours to get that achieved.

But that was the teamwork that they were trying to impart on you straight

away in that first 14 weeks about how you needed to just understand that as

a team you could achieve those tasks if everybody had a task to do so.

People were washing, people were ringing, people were hanging, people

were drying, people were ironing, and then people were putting stuff in

lockers when they'd identified whose kit it was, et cetera, et cetera.

And then that built as it was the esprit de corps for myself, the guards group.

And then next door, obviously we had the artillery group next door to

that was the, the first female troop.

So my very first encounter with females in training was the very first female

troop, which was our sister troop alongside us within the three billets.

So yeah, it was that camaraderie, but at the same time, our corporate

platoon was gonna be better than all the other platoons and.

Our instructors made sure that that was the end goal, that we weren't

the ones that were picked out.

And that camaraderie that's, you say a brotherhood was well formed throughout

training in the way that your training staff had conducted themselves?

Yeah, so in my time as an instructor and at different training depots and

places like the Infantry Training Center or the Royal Military Academy, the

whole spectrum of training had changed.

So that whole training developing was how it worked.

Then they didn't really care for the attrition rate.

So I think there was somewhere like 83 of us at the beginning.

There was only 35 of us finished, but there wasn't any sort of understanding.

The people that actually got through to the December were

the people that wanted it.

Yeah.

Again, I don't know if any of them were directed into any of

the cores or any of job roles.

I didn't have that awareness or that understanding of how it all worked.

All I saw was somebody packing up their Footlocker, somebody packing up

their military bag, and then ultimately receiving their suitcase again, and

then being marched off somewhere else, and that was another name gone.

That wasn't in my plan once, obviously, my mum told me after you know, one of the

first phone calls where I broke down in the, in the phone box, just, I couldn't

get my head around like that separation.

Once I'd got over that shocker capture and she was like, there's nothing for you here

other than knows there's nothing for you.

Stay there and grit it out.

And ultimately I did and I did that off the experience of the older lads.

You, they bring you on 'cause you're a youngster.

You know, they, they know that they can get you to click the

kettle and you'll make the bruise.

I learned that lesson quite early on because, you know, some of the

lads were older, those 26, 27 year olds, you know, and they'd look after

you that way, giving you those life skills of that experience of the day.

But at the same time, you could run very, very quickly to the nafi for everybody.

Get in there really quick and get back 'cause you are the one that

they won't notice is missing as much.

Yeah.

So sneaking out the window.

And was it, so is it a December pass off from Per right?

It was, yeah.

Was that a, a huge point for you in your life?

As in like, I've, I've done this, the first part of training is done.

Like I've, I've made it.

Yeah.

I, I now know this is me for, for my life.

So that family of mine showed me their commitment to that journey.

'cause they're set off at something like half two, 3:00

AM in the morning to come down.

You know, money then was hard to come by.

But still the Army had to charge people to come to watch the pass out parades.

But they all came, they brought everybody that was, you know, part and

parcel of my immediate family rented a minibus, drove down, you know, wow.

You never got to see anybody pre parade.

So they were all obviously hosted as what, you know, as the nafi

where all the parents gather.

And then they're obviously escorted onto the drill parade square

and put into the, to the sheds.

And then obviously the parade starts and you come on with your

different platoon groupings.

And as I said, you know, we all by that stage, were the ones that made it.

And yeah, we look sharp.

I remember the feeling of marching on being very, very proud, ultimately

catching a glimpse every time we, we marched around, whether it be

in slow or quick time, you know, showing the drill that we'd learned.

And you know, it felt very proud at that stage to ultimately get there

and have them come and watch that.

And that was exactly the same reflected after the 26 weeks in cataract having

only just on the 14 weeks basic.

And Ry, was there a single moment in training that stands out to you as a, a

memory, a lesson, anything from there?

Probably the difference obviously between what you think is is training

and what actually is, is training.

The lessons I learned in the hours of darkness were.

The lessons that ultimately shaped the next 26 weeks as well,

because the admin side of being a, a young soldier is important.

I see a lot of it and all the changes that happened in Training Depots, you know,

we didn't have the time to be silly to film each other and in the blocks and all

these things that you see on social media and that now, it, it, we actually created

a team because there was tasks to do.

You know, people look back at it as horror stories, cleaning toilets with your

toothbrushes and all that sort of stuff.

But our time was taken off us and what was ours was precious and you utilize

it to get what should be done, done.

Those were the times that changed people.

So when mums talk about soldiers coming home and doing laundry and ironing

and looking a lot smarter and people recognize that the changes happened,

those might be the same cases now, but it was amplified back then.

'cause they could definitely tell that you'd returned home

cut from a different cloth.

Like the skills that he gave you were just completely different

to what I'd experienced at home.

Brilliant.

Then before we get into what happened next and, and service,

do you wanna touch on your MVO?

We'll get into why you're presenting and everything, but can you

just let us know the difference?

I think it's an important part of your story is to, you're not just.

Tony Gibson, Anthony Gibson, MVO.

What's the difference between say the, the M-V-O-O-B-E-M-B-E?

So the MBE or the OBE can be presented by public bodies.

So anybody can obviously, I'll say write a, a citation and have that placed in

for you to then be awarded that from a public body or a person of significance.

But the member of the Victorian order can only be issued by his majesty the

king at the time, or her majesty the Queen at that time for tasks specific

and directly affecting the royal family.

And that's the difference The public body can have that to be awarded.

Brilliant.

So it's where we go with our, our story now and your, your military

career, it's important to remember that

it's gonna be very, very rewarding to, to know why you were awarded that, isn't it?

It's it's special, but for now, we've passed out cataract, sorry, not cataract.

We've passed out of Pearlite in December.

Where did your story take you now?

The first time I'd ever, ever gone on, on leave was from Pearlite after

I passing out parade, come home.

A complete, surreal experience.

'cause obviously you left with what was your joining

instructions for the next fairs.

So, I knew I was going to tric.

I knew it was gonna be in the new year.

And I knew I would be joining a new platoon and I would leave people behind

that had gone to different cores and different regiments and obviously

that, that the guards would separate at that stage into the infantry training

center, which was at the time was in Vimy Barracks up there in North Re

So, yeah, got Christmas out the way.

It was lovely being around family and friends, and then arrived in another

snow covered county of North Yorkshire.

And that's when training really did kick into another gear.

And the infantry took over.

And yeah, the lessons of basic training from brt, even though we

had guards, instructors, were not the lessons that we ultimately came out

the other end with, because infantry

is and was then a different beast.

If we were to say infant infantry training was a 10 out 10, how, what scale would

you put BR on if Patrick, it was a 10 out 10 at the end of the 26 weeks, br on that

scale would probably be a four or a five.

It didn't touch on half of the skills that an infantry person needed.

It was the.

Barely basics for want of better words and the absolute bare minimum, even though

it was hard, it was the bare minimum of a requirement to have, like the, what

people would understand as basic military skills and how was Catholic for you?

Did, did you enjoy it to some extent, knowing that, you know, the end picture's

gonna result in you having another pass off and going to a battalion you'd

aspire to join after they'd supported you in joining the military and not

having a, a criminal conviction.

So rik for me is where the bug of infant hearing started.

As a young man switches started turning in my head whether they'd be good or

bad, depending on how you look at, like the term pamphlet head, understanding

how everything worked and what reason why, and then understanding, you know,

the monarchs and actions and tactical teaching points, all that sort of stuff.

That was where everything came together for me, and that's where the bug started.

So the, the want and the desire for those early progressions into, you know,

the next stage, the next promotion, where that piece came from and that

desire was burning and there hasn't been another desire burning bright like that.

In a long, long time.

You know, it's, it was just, I couldn't get enough of it.

Everything that we were doing, steeple chase, being at SALT course,

being at training, one being at training two exercise from, you

know, the per bright days of camping by numbers to being tested.

You know, we're talking about people getting flagged by grenades

and you know, training scenarios.

You'd have all your kitten equipment, you know, out for inspections

and then all of a sudden you were being bumped by the enemy.

Learning how to keep everything organized to get out there quickly,

just, it was absolutely fascinating.

There was nothing that they didn't throw at us that I didn't find.

And not even in hindsight at the time, I would find myself giggling and laughing

and just having this sick sense of humor about this is fucking awesome.

Like I absolutely love this.

And you know, the other side of it, there were times when there was

low moments, but there was far more high exhilarating moments than there

was any, any sort of down stuff.

And I think they thought I was a bit weird about that as well.

But that ultimately through, as it was then verbal

communications and stuff, how folk.

Especially from my regiment, found out a bit more about me early on.

And there were folk who knew who I was before I even arrived at my regiment.

It was weird.

Or, you know, your name's got here already.

Were looking forward to, to seeing what you're all about.

And that was pretty much my reception speech from my platoon sergeant.

My section commanders had obviously been briefed briefing units and people that

they knew about, you know, candidates that were coming forward and well,

that was a big pressure, but one that I, I took on and enjoyed as did, did

you pass out with Wick first time?

First time yeah, it was very Flo Close call on two.

I was so obviously you get awards at the end of training.

And I was in the, the top 5, 4, 3 of the five awards.

Again, you got your little presentation at the time.

The one that hurt me the most was the, the pt. I'd never been the fittest in br.

As I said, I was the youngest, but at Crick I was allowed to

flourish and not win in best.

PT was probably the one that hurt the most because the plateau came in, I

think for some of the older people, whereas I was still developing and that.

Bit between my teeth wanting to always push as soon as they did everything

with weight or put the weight on.

Like that development that was slow in the beginning was just, it just felt normal.

And that allowed me to, to take some big steps in that fizz

and, and, and get quite good.

Like, most of my military career was spent on, on cross country and

the early stuff, as everybody knows, was about running tabbing with

weight, moving tactically at speed.

But I absolutely loved that stuff.

And two milers, the combat fitness test, eight miler, it was just, it felt easy,

it felt good, and I knew that I was quick.

And ultimately that type, type of fitness was good because that's

what they were looking for that way.

And those, those days in the Army anyway, now it's more tailored to strength and

conditioning and, and things like that.

So we've, we, we've passed out from Wick first time, naturally, same as you've gone

to your battalion, they know who you are.

And let's just touch on it a little bit.

How did that make you feel?

Was this a good thing that they knew who you were?

Was it because of, you know, this guy's like laughing, going through training when

it's meant to be hard and he's like, this guy's like born and bred for the infantry.

He, he loves everything we're teaching him, right.

Again, I rocked up to a battalion in a suit shirt and tie suitcase in hand.

I mean, that's nonexistent anymore.

And then to be told, yeah, yeah.

They're expecting me.

Go straight up.

Someone collected me, the corporal took me upstairs and then the

platoon sergeant Sergeants going, yeah, I've heard all about you.

We know everything about you.

We know that you, you think you're good.

And to be told, that was quite worrying.

But I was then quite quickly taken under one of the corporals, you know, it's a

bit for free for all back those days.

You used to be worried about bed check-ins and all that sort of stuff.

But that didn't happen to me.

I sidestep that.

I went from a four man room straight away to a two man room,

and I was so junior, like I'd only been there a couple of months.

This would've been 2099.

Nine nine again.

Yeah.

So this corporal had said, you know, or as it is in the guys, a section

commander or land sergeant said, you now do what I tell you to do.

You work for me.

If I put these boots here, you make sure they're clean.

If I put this kit here, you make sure it's ironed.

If anyone tells you to do anything else, you tell me or you tell them,

I've told you that you're doing this.

We got through that whole conversation about who I should be saying that to

rank equivalent or peers as it was anybody else from any other rank,

Lance Corporal, section commander.

They knew that I was doing that for him and I didn't get touched.

I watched people arrive before me.

That fear of, obviously the bed checking was happening all around me.

Buds were getting bungee to the beds and tipped upside down and

beaten with pillows and boots inside of pillow cases and all sorts.

It just, but it didn't happen.

Do you think that that didn't happen to you though because of your character,

how you conducted yourself throughout training and you had this positive

reputation carrying into your battalion?

Yeah, but I also wanted to sort of impress everybody as well.

I wanted to make sure that if I did something, it was done a hundred

percent to how I'd been told to make sure it was done and then put over

that good impression that, you know, I'll run to the nafi when you've

asked me to go to the Nafi and I'll run back with whatever you've got me.

And you know, there were old jokes of, you know, here's 10 pound, make

sure you come back with 10 pounds.

You know, it's just those things were done as quickly as I could just to allow me

to then get on with everybody, everybody else's tasks to the best of my ability.

And o overall, how was.

Battalion life anything notable that happened throughout the

rest of 99 and into 2000?

Not during that stage.

In, in that later 2000, obviously we'd gone into the millennium piece,

but that's when the talk of the Northern Ireland campaign being

reduced was being put into effect.

'cause the peace talks were well underway by that stage.

So the the desire to go to go to Northern Ireland for what could be

the final time was already there.

It was something that all the instructors already talked about.

Obviously being part of the, you know, the northern island

riots on the, the baseline.

And we all knew that that drum Cree was potentially the last time that anybody

could get a northern island medal.

And, you know, we thought it was just, it was gonna be the, like

the, the bet of soldiers that would, would get selected, but it wasn't.

And we went through to what was the selection for the first Carter?

You know, I'd only been there a year and the first Carter selection was on.

I didn't get selected for that one, but a very good friend of mine did.

He's still serving now.

And he ultimately went on to be promoted, which was fantastic.

And I got that bug then, and I wanted that.

And then that wasn't to be the case for either of us.

So where we thought it was the best that we're gonna go did didn't.

They sent some of the troublemakers and, and some of the, I'll say not

so well put together soldiers, we all have seen fat, fat soldiers.

So they sent them and they come back during our time in this ceremonial

role with Northern Ireland medals.

And it's always been one of those bitter points.

It's like, I really wanted to do that and I know I would've, I would've

enjoyed it and done my ultimate best.

But people had plans to make and decisions to make and ultimately you don't know what

company commanders had are thinking in that time when you're a junior soldier.

But as you go through the ranks, you understand why.

You understand that you can't give away all your best better soldiers

as you can look at it in hindsight.

And they kept p personnel around just to give the platoon

the, the different balance.

And yeah, ultimately you can say they did what they did 'cause they needed

to keep a good working unit together.

And even though it was very bitter, 'cause we all wanted that experience,

we didn't chase that then for quite a long time because we knew

like what was ahead in our future.

Because we'd already been told about taking over the Irish guards and we were

going mechanized infantry in Germany.

Those experiences were to come and ultimately we'd, we'd find that out

in 2003 and what was to, to come from obviously the Iraq war and

all that sorts of stuff that, that ultimately led to telex and Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it was different.

So it's your career's already off to a, a flying start, you know, looking at

a Carter and potential promotion after a year, which correct me if I'm wrong

here, but it is unheard of, isn't it?

I mean, to even when I joined and I, it was 2010 when I finally got through

the door to go to Wick, and it was, when I got to battalion, four years

of rank is what you're looking at.

So to be looked at, even given the consideration to be on a

card art for a year, you must have been doing something right.

It was still in the old mentality of you have to have been a, a guardsman

for a certain period of time, or you said no when they offered it to you.

And that was pretty much the, the unwritten rule that you had

to have become a senior soldier.

So, you know, if people were talking about the 12 year, you know, guardsmen

and all that sort of stuff, young Lance Corporal was being promoted after, you

know, two years as it was for myself, was, was pretty much unheard of.

There was a dynamic change, there was changes above my, you know, pay

scale and, and into ranks far in front of me and the infantry that

understand that potential can be nurtured and developed and brought on.

And that it really wasn't a bad thing to, to bring these on.

Now, during that time, in that timeframe that I served, breaks were placed

in, and, you know, the establishment of a minimum amount of time in rank,

depending on grades, was obviously established through Glasgow and

obviously rolled out across the army.

But I was on the other side of that window, so I was still quite fortunate as

I was, as I progressed through the ranks.

But yeah, I, I'd come back off holiday in America.

After that first car drive was unsuccessful on the second one I was

successful and I'd, I'd got through the pre-course, I'd gone on to

America to have a enjoy a holiday, and then I came back fully knowing

I was gonna go on a, a card course.

And as soon as that started the household division and Parachute Regiment

centralized course nine 11 happened and I'd just come back from New York and

I'd been back in the country two weeks and I was sat in the nafi, obviously

watching as everybody did the planes crashing into the, the World Trade Center.

And then it was like, I'm on a, my first promotion course and this is happening.

And then obviously the ramifications of that across all of the armed

forces in the world and everybody's understanding of just how everything

heightened from that point on.

So you, you are a serving soldier at the time, sat in a nfi, going

on promotion courses, you know, the military as you through and

through it, this point in your life.

How did you feel when you saw nine 11 happen?

Well, it was,

yeah, the reality check of these things happen in the world.

Something is gonna happen off the back of this, and this is

what we're, this is what we do.

This is what infantry soldiers do.

And that carried on, then that carried on through the different ranks and,

and the different experiences I had at Training Depots when other operational

tours were going, the amount of people that I served alongside that

forced their way out of things like the training depot with recruits to

get back to regimental duty to go on these operational tours was, was real.

It was thought were getting themselves disciplined to be rtd, to stop training

recruits to, to return to regimental duty.

And the action, like it was, it was a real thing in the infantry.

And I never went down that way.

I was too, too straight laced to get the himself in any discipline,

but the desire was there.

We always had that desire.

Everybody wanted to go on tour and.

Unfortunately, my career path in different training estates took me

to those postings and my regiment subsequent on different operational tours.

And I missed a few of them and, you know, but I would've got an accumulated

service medal out of a couple of them.

But ultimately I went to the destinations that I wanted to go to

and I experienced, but the desire to still do that soldiering, not the

frontline piece, was the always there.

And Telec five was your first tour That's right.

In Iraq.

What rank were you?

I'd just qualified as a section commander, so I'd done Brecken

in the summer that year.

And then obviously we deployed out.

So I, I was still a Lance Corporal but I was also then promoted on tour to section

commander or full corporal Lance sergeant.

And yeah, that was like the first time that we were

actually out in a kinetic area.

So, we went to Alara, obviously everybody flew into Basra and, and went through

Shiba Logistics base as it was where, which was a British headquarters.

And but then in a quick stint at Basra Palace we came back through Shire and

then we were told, you know, in orders everybody would be moving on a road move.

And that we were going north to Alara.

Well, Alara had already become synonymous on tele four.

Everybody knew Alara from, at the time, the Corporal Brian Wood PVCP,

Danny Boy, obviously the contact there and the first British soldiers

to, you know, as Brian did fix bayonets and assault enemy insurgency.

And obviously the, the stuff that had happened at the police station and

everything else was, was a reality.

We moved into Camp Agie having taken over all these fighting vehicles

from the Princess of World's Royal Regiment, and it was a reality check.

It was the first time you ever been mortared.

You ever heard the contact alarm, the siren, whatever you were doing,

whatever the multiple was doing.

It was a first time experience.

Cyber logistics based never had coffins like at 18, 19 years old, being told

that, you know, you're gonna be living in a tent, but unfortunately you'll

be surrounded by breeze blocks, you know, with a, a breeze block roof to

stop the motor fret, you know, blowing you up or injuring you, your bunk mate

next to you, you know, a set of breeze blocks to the left and the right of you.

It's sort of pretty much a good reality check of just trying to stop

the shrapnel and stuff like that.

So.

Yeah I was in charge of a multiple, so I had my, my fire team obviously

in regards to, to moving us around.

And that was a learning experience as well.

'cause it was a drill from Northern Ireland that I'd never been exposed to.

I'd never had the, the tactical teaching.

So it was about understanding from my platoon sergeant in our quiet

times, how he wanted me to move around and what the multiple was to do.

Those lessons went and, and carried me through into the later Afghans

that we did, but was quickly removed from our TTPs because of just how

kinetic Afghan was and the difference between Afghan and, and Iraq as it was

during the voting time there in 2005.

Which is ultimately what, what we did when we went there.

We quickly removed ourselves through the company group as sort of the kinetic

stuff from the very early days of arrival in Alara to then force protection of

the polling stations and then the, the localities that these civilians would

come to, to, to try and establish a fair, fair government, which is, you know, as

a, as a young ranker, fully understanding wasn't there, but the intent and, and

knowledge as to how we were gonna achieve it was 'cause we were briefed well.

And then that's another learning experience how to, to understand

briefing and get that information articulated correctly so everybody

knew roughly what was going on at the, the lowest level interpretation

was, was obviously everything.

So yeah, it was a good experience the first time it ever went kinetic.

And yeah, it's just, it provides those learning experiences and massively

different, as I say, when we move forward in time to, to Afghan.

But a great learning experience as a junior commander and, and

tell it five was a, the indirect fire, the mortars was a big threat.

Was it all kinetic as well?

Did you have many small arms contacts other than the, the first few in Aara

before we were put in on a no armor inside, the steel ring of Aara itself.

That's when I first experienced small arm contact and come back.

Then the main threat, as you just alluded to was that IDF threat, like that was

the first time obviously experiencing a motor bombardment and really the first

of the improvised explosives device.

'cause they, I ir triggers and, and stuff like that.

They were being very, very cautiously briefed on, but at

the same time experiencing.

So again, fortunate that only one of our call signs in that entire tour was,

was hit by an IED, but that was that insurgency's improvised explosive device.

We then move forward in time to just how well the improvised

explosive device can come about.

Did, did the guys survive?

Yes.

They all survived and, and again, the vehicle development.

So we were rolling around in Snatch Land Rovers or Land Rovers with, with

sound half filled and full sandbags under our bums and under our, in

the foot plate of the vehicles.

And it's just being on top, covering a snatch lamb rover from Northern

Ireland in the middle of a desert was absolutely, absolutely mental.

When you think about how the vehicles and the, the, the PPPs developed from

obviously the early Afghans into the later Afghans, at least it wasn't snowing.

It seems to be the start of your military career snow.

Oh no, we definitely got a, we definitely got an education in

weather when we went to, to Iraq.

Yeah.

What was the, what was the hottest day you had out there, if you can remember at all?

I remember being sat in full riot gear for the Basra riots and we'd just been

shown all of the images of the Royal Regiment refusal airs doing their public

order, and obviously the turre was on fire and you've got the individual,

obviously on fire in the TUR as well when you've got the baseline drawing

the battens and, and swinging them at the, you know, the public order.

And that's what we were going into and I remember sitting in the back of this

fighting vehicle with my half multiple sweat, absolutely dripping off us.

It must have been 45 degrees easily.

We had the shields mounted to, you know, the explosion reactive armor on the

outside of the warrior, and everybody just had their camel back bottles of

water just to save from dehydrate.

The sweat was just another level, but fully kitted up.

And then, yeah, we, we ultimately went out and established the baseline

and quelled the, the riot as it were.

Brilliant.

This tour comes to an end.

We could call it successful.

Yeah.

Everybody made it home.

Yeah.

Huge success then either way.

Obviously Herricks didn't necessarily end that way for a lot of guys.

Before we get to Herrick and it was Herrick 11 you were deployed on.

Had we promoted again during this time before you deployed to Afghanistan?

So yeah, I've been into the training depot, so post that, Iraq had spent some

time at the infantry training center.

So my first role as section commander developing the recruits and that

experience of those two years was again, pinnacle in my development and

understanding of how to get the best outta people and understand like how I

wanted to move forward as an instructor.

You know, shaped myself with positive and negative experiences of, of

seeing, you know, both by peers and by, you know, people senior to me.

And then come back to regimental duty, had some time again.

And then went off on the platoon sergeant's battle course and

ultimately passed that with, at the time a double distinction.

So I still have my name in, in the, the corridor of Brecken as a double

distinctive section commander on both of the, those, those courses.

So again, at the time, that's something in the infantry that's,

that's held, you know, in high esteem.

And having that was a fantastic experience for myself.

And then off the back of that, yeah, promoted to, to platoon sergeant.

And then ultimately our orders, we were going to Afghan.

So whereas we were one of the first guard units into Iraq, we were one

of the last guard units into Afghan.

So, you know, we're talking 2010, whereas they'd already had a

establishment for at least three or four years from that point in Afghan.

And we'd missed out because of the patrol cycles and the, you

know, the, the cycles as it were.

Cool.

Well, we'll take a little break there and we'll, we'll pick it up shortly.

Okay.

So before Herrick 11 deployed, you've been promoted to platoon sergeant.

Had anything else happened in this period before deploying on another tour?

So nothing else post Iraq happened other than the birth of my daughter in 2008.

And then, as you could expect, an infantry regiment gearing

towards an operational deployment.

We started that operational training.

Ultimately that saw me commanding the platoon as a platoon sergeant.

We didn't have platoon commanders.

They were still in training at the Royal Military Academy.

And before our pre-deployment package was set, they would arrive and

obviously establish themselves into the platoon and in common keeping with a

deployment to a warm country, we were set to deploy to Otterburne and there

was snow on the ground in Otterburne.

So, yeah.

The three new platoon commanders arrived just before we did that.

And yeah, the establishment of them in charge of the platoon and myself

and my o opposite number Lee into the roles of the platoon sergeants

or 10 and 11 platoon respectably.

Yeah, so new platoon commanders set themselves out on the stall and

what they wanted to achieve as young platoon commanders who'd been briefed

on the Afghan scenario, gone through their training and we'd had the

experiences of our years behind us.

And then our tours.

And as platoon sergeants were responsible for nurturing them onwards.

And how, how did you feel knowing that you're about to deploy to

Afghanistan on a kinetic tour?

You know, this is proper war fighting stuff now, especially what we've

seen on the, the early herricks.

You've got a young daughter now.

Had your mindset changed at all during this period where you're

like, you were a bread and butter.

I love the infantry infant being an infant.

Here is everything I am.

I love this stuff.

Did it change having your daughter?

So that awareness and the threat was the driving factor to return

home to her was, was the goal?

That goal became more and more prevalent the further we moved into the operational

tour 'cause of how kinetic it was getting.

But that was my why as it is known now.

That was my driving force.

She was too.

And before that, so go back to my promotion course at Brecken, I'd received

a handwritten letter from the Special forces and that letter was come and take

part in our selection process where we, we want you, we want you to take part.

And I made that conscious decision not to because of the knowledge I

had of special forces at the time and how families wouldn't survive.

So I tried to show that as a commitment to the family unit instead of the military.

Avoided going on, on special forces selection that way.

Again, there are a million stories about people who wanted to and people who

nearly did, and that's mine that I chose.

I mean, that, that, that is huge for, for putting your daughter first because

I think that's, if you join the infantry, it would be fair to say the majority of

people have an aspiration that I would at least, at least like to attempt selection.

I'd at least like to get on the hills.

I'd at least like to try and prep for it.

I think that's, that is the pinnacle Yeah.

Of infant hearing.

If she hadn't been born, I would've done, you were invited there and

you were testament to your daughter and your, your loyalty and selfless

commitment towards her that Thank you.

No, thank you.

Yeah.

You come first.

And that was the first time I'd ever penned that sort of, of letter in return.

'cause majority of the time it's just our CMOs communicating.

But I was privileged that way to be able to establish that letter.

Wow.

If she hadn't been born, it would be a different story.

I would've wholeheartedly gone however that looked in regards to the future.

That relationship then, that was the, the dream to be the tip

of the spear would've been the pinnacle of, of any of those roles.

And we know what those guys are all about.

We, that's what we wanted to, to ultimately achieve different units

in the army, achieve different levels of that, but never get

that unless they go there and.

Yeah, that would've been a nice feeling.

But that family unit and that commitment was what I wanted to, to achieve and

ultimately was let down by that a few years later on, but not by my daughter.

So of course, and this time we we're during Herrick 11,

it was a, a winter tour.

Yes.

So it's contrary to popular belief.

Yes, it's warm in the day, but it's not particularly warm of an evening.

No, it's very not hospitable at all and either sense of the community

in the area and the weather.

That winter tour into the spring and the summer as it ultimately was, was bitter.

And our experiences in Otterburne proved well.

And it set us up just right for establishing and embedding as we did at

the time when the company group separated.

Our initial task was supposed to be supports of special forces.

And it wasn't until we arrived in Camp Bassing and completed the the package

as it was the arrival package, that that role was then removed off us.

And we were gonna go into something that was called Reconnaissance by Fire.

And at that time, operation Panthers Claw just finished.

That was the tour before.

And then we were placed onto what was the tip of something

known as the cat triangle.

And we would be beyond the forward line of, of on troops.

So at the flat and it would be a task for the company, but the company was

then separate into each of its platoon groupings and we were patrol's platoon.

And that meant we were the ones maneuvering around in front of

the forward line of Vrn troops.

So they said it was gonna be quiet, that the insurgency had

potentially withdrawn for the winter.

That proved accurate for probably the first four weeks and then completely

inaccurate for the remainder of the five to six months that we spent on tour.

And is there any standout firefights that were there for you?

Had you lost friends On this tour?

There are a number of incidents that were documented and well documented,

and we were quite fortunate to have a journalist with us.

So an author called Max Bennetts had deployed on our pre-deployment training

and was granted permission to come along.

So kinda like the Sebastian Younger piece with the American Marines he was embedded

and he documented the whole of the tour in a book called Six Months Without Sundays

Again.

Everybody's got different experiences of Afghan.

I know that that was the British Army's most kinetic tour.

As you get further on in life and you understand how the army works, you can

get access to these records and history will always tell you like what the

different kinetic tours were all about.

That tour was the British Army's most kinetic, and I know that my call sign was

the most patrolled call sign of that tour across the British Army's Force troop.

I was the only platoon sergeant to return to the UK without an injury.

My opposite numbers, all of them receiving different injuries.

Again, between the battalions company Sergeant Majors and the regiment sergeant

Major, I had the honor of having the most cas acts accumulated, including everybody

else, which depends how you look at it.

We were in a very kinetic location and yeah, some of the young

lads returned change people.

We had two triple amputees in the platoon.

Yeah platoon sergeants do different tasks in different

roles, and we do different things.

When the, the groupings, as I mentioned earlier, split up from the

multiple patrolling and we started doing different TTPs to effect

what the insurgency was doing.

Myself and my good friend from the Maneuver Support group Dale McCallum

who was one of the victims we were snipers and we'd formed a sniping pair.

Very successful pairing, and he was ultimately killed as well.

Doing my job I'd been extracted by the company to go and work

with Special Forces as the liaison officer of that, as many people do.

I've got lots of footage of that sort of stuff.

And he went and did my job and ultimately paid that price in the

Sanger from controlling the firefight.

That happened.

I was in the operations in Lash Gaar, as I said, working with the special

forces, watching this unfold on green eyes, listening to the radio

communications from my checkpoint, unable to affect any of that.

And then obviously the contacts ended up with casualties in the checkpoint.

And even as you know, as that numbers were being read out, I knew who they

were telling the base of operations, who they were sort of being that middleman.

And then Dale's, that number came across.

But he'd been shot in the face and he had a young son as well.

And I returned a day later, obviously on a, on a pre-planned flight.

But, you know, the, the platoon had their own difficulties at the time.

'cause there were different h lss within the Afghan conflict and

we had a black HLS, which meant no earth frame touched down.

And if it wasn't for the Americans, like he wouldn't have been extracted.

I watched all that get arranged and I couldn't do anything.

I'd had my very first experience as the battalion second in command.

You know, tried to get everybody je back up again after it,

after it being confirmed.

And I know I'll never ever forget the words.

Like, we have to continue.

And I just broke down in the operations room.

When you lose that, you admit, but then realize that the next day I was

going back to the compound where it happened and then I would have to like

speak to everybody else that actually affected his withdrawal from the Sanger,

you know, down three slight of stairs and the operational Sanger as it was.

And then were under contact themselves trying to get him onto the black

coat that ultimately came down.

And, you know.

Took him onto the airframe to get him back to, to Sebastian.

And the experience is that everyone in the platoon, the platoon commander, my senior

section commander, all the guardsmen that were in the Sanger with him, tried to

ca vacuum and what they'd gone through.

And then just how we'd deal with that and, you know, from being received off

the back of that helicopter and brought back into the checkpoint by Viking and

then just understanding what they all did and thanking them for, for their efforts.

That's really when the proverbial, as they say, the shit do hit the fan, started

with the, with the rest of the tour.

'cause we'd had contacts before.

What a thrill.

We took pictures of it and videos and everyone came out the other end, you

know, elated 'cause no one was hurt.

And that was from the first contact, we were the first platoon and contact over

the radio was the first time we'd set it.

And for years people sort of chased that.

But then after those experiences and through my Army career becoming

a, again, a, a teacher at the Royal Military Academy or wherever I'd

gone, all the young soldiers always had those stories about that.

But for years I'd chased that.

But would always say, don't ever chase it.

'cause once it arrives you never want it 'cause you have to

deal with the aftermath of it.

And then when you've lost folk or you've seen folk like

properly mentally scarred, it's,

it's not nice.

And you have to obviously learn how to deal with it.

And I took the role of, of packing up all Dale's possessions,

wouldn't let anybody else do it.

And then brought back to the UK personal memento for his son, like his operational

hat, his app numbers, and then a bracelet that he was made obviously out of para

code just so I could give it to him at the remembrance ceremony in, in New York.

And it's just, well, it's, it's life here.

Couldn't articulate to his son what he meant.

His mother knew.

I've seen his family a million times since go to his grave.

But it's life.

And as I've said to my partner and anyone else that will listen, then that time

that was, as I've said, kill or be killed.

It's not nice.

But they were out to end every single person in that checkpoint.

And then by that stage I had just, everything was about infantry and

what we were there to do, not what the government wanted us to do, why we were

in Afghan or anything else like that.

It was, we will do our job as infantries and they will be killed

before they kill anymore of us.

We had some more people injured towards the end of the tour, but we never

lost anybody else from that point.

And like one of my biggest takeaways is that, you know, the proudest things that

they'll add to say is they wouldn't have gone back out on patrol if I wasn't there.

And to me that means a lot, you know, nothing against the platoon commander.

He was a brilliant bloke, but they just wanted that reassurance 'cause

getting fork off that ground and the injuries that some of them sustained.

Yeah.

Completely life changing for them and for everyone involved really.

And then that tour came to an end.

Never had anyone, obviously at the return home ceremony told everybody to stay away.

Everyone was met early morning, it was at two o'clock.

We, we got back into Crick and I remember, you know, the company

commander, all these different experiences between commander's parents

saying thank you for bringing him home.

Thanking me and

I knew there was nobody else there for me, but then the thought that I wanted

there weren't, that was difficult, but I just remember walking away.

Everyone was celebrating party, if you will, but

not for me.

At that time that was that was rough.

But then to sort of understand that, that's where I sort of

threw myself back into to Militar.

I remember going straight into the ISO's office and asking

like I need to be, to be busy.

I need to something to do.

And the rail military Academy, Sanders Kado was coming up and regular regimental

duty was not cutting it in regards to just what I've been through in

Afghan and sort of my battle rhythm, my body clock, all that sort of stuff

was set to, you know, to conflict and was always awake and ready to go.

But a regiment duty just as different forms of stress set in

and foot handle it differently.

I wasn't drinking, I didn't smoke or anything else like that.

I wasn't a substance abuser.

I needed something to, to help me understand why I was awake and good to go.

So we did that, and six of us were selected and we ultimately went that way.

And I think without the role of Military Academy Sandhurst and passing that course,

yeah, I'm not sure how, how I would've dealt with things, because that really

allowed me to invest into my understanding of training and development of people

again, and just have a training environment that was sort of similar

to deploying and being in theater.

'cause the opportunity to go to, to Afghan were, were drawing down, especially

at a senior level for myself, whereas more of the youngsters were getting

taken forward and the next tour for the battalion wasn't for a few years.

So I knew that was gonna be outta that cycle for a while, but

it's what I would do in my time.

And I ultimately caught up with max Bennett again when I was at

dut, and he's released a, a second part to the book of like, where

are they now and what they doing.

But the lessons and the experiences live with you and the trouble you in

different ways, like has everybody's got.

And you know, it's just one of those that you, you deal with and you learn

and you know, some thought processes are positive, whether there's a

negative and it's just, oh yeah.

How you handle them.

And as I said, I learned to handle mine by submerging myself in work, which

ultimately would then affect, you know, that status with my then wife in 2012.

That would see that come to a head not too many years further

on down the line from that.

And then, yeah, your career continues moving and you do different jobs

and you do different roles and have different experiences and

you just keep moving forward.

So you've mentioned as well briefly that you, you turned down

UKSF selection, you know, from a handwritten letter, which that's rare.

That is super, super rare to be given that, so take my hat off to

you for your daughter, for your family, but that, that didn't work

out, not the family aspect of it.

No.

So that was 2008 and then post Afghan obviously started having some troubles.

Those were weighing heavily on my then wife.

We got married in 2012.

Altogether, we were in a relationship for 13 years.

My daughter was 10 when she decided to leave.

Again, just how I'd chosen to submerge myself back into.

Military life post Afghan, I found myself away a lot more.

And that was probably been my way of handling the stresses that I was under.

But it was working for me.

But, you know, alongside that, I was putting pressures obviously

on her and obviously it was sort of putting that wedge between us.

I don't blame her for her actions.

You know, the, the life of a military spouse is, is hard enough

without the continued separation.

So after doing Sandhurst which I did as a color sergeant and then a company

sergeant major, pretty much back to back, I then went off to the Falkland

Islands and then found myself in South Korea working with the Americans.

And if the public remember to when Kim Jong-Un and president Donald Trump

met on the demilitarized zone and he was the first person to cross over

the demilitarized zone and they had the handshake I was actually there as

part of a, a UK contingent for that.

And that was pretty much the straw that brought the camels back for her.

'cause when I'd returned that was 2018, she called it a day.

And for me that was very, very hard.

Found that hard to take because of all the sacrifices obviously that we'd

made, that had still the vision of, you know, this was gonna be our future.

I was getting close to that 22 year point and, you know, I'd

been promoted to company Sergeant Major, weren't officer class two.

And yeah, everything was, was going in the right direction.

I'd returned to regimental duty, albeit going out on these, these

different events that were happening.

Done some pretty cool things.

As I said, I went to the Falcon Islands and, and South Korea, but that had then

driven that wedge so much so that, that she finished that and that came about on

my promotion to regimental Quarter Master Sergeant, and that was very hard to take.

I then didn't deploy on Operation Toska, which is out in Cyprus.

You know, people have got different views on that tour.

It is an operational tour and people do get, obviously awarded a medal for it.

But I decided to stay in the UK just so I could see my daughter.

And then that's where the next progression for my career happened

pretty much at the same time.

Because I wasn't gonna be involved regimentally anymore.

The commanding officer I'd pulled a few strings and, and got me

up to the all arms drill wing or the drill wing as it is known.

And promotion to warrant officer Class one regimental sergeant

Major followed from that.

Whilst being that senior rank trying to deal with a, a divorce and trying

to get a proximity to his, his child.

Yeah, I worked as hard as I could and then it all came crumbling down.

As many as stories, you know, all these meme pages, et cetera.

Look for a, a bitter sergeant major.

I definitely wasn't that way inclined.

I, you know, we'd, we'd sep separated to an extent, amicable, but it was later that

I found out exactly what was going on.

And then, yeah, I was more interested in making sure my daughter had

everything that she needed and, and I was doing right by her that way.

And yeah, like most, as I say, the stress was on, so I was losing

quite a bit of weight, timber that I should have naturally moved.

But that's when I found fitness again.

So as I said, 2018 started all my training running at the time.

All these different terminologies, hybrid, tactical, athlete, all this sort of

stuff is, is now normal with vocabulary.

Back then it wasn't.

And I was just doing every type of fitness you can think of.

But then, you know, moving more towards the CrossFit space and

developing myself that way and seeing some very good British Army warrior.

Fitness personnel especially in the early days.

The Alex Res, the Charlotte Spencer, getting proper recognition, going to

regional competitions in the Meridian region and, and doing really, really well.

And then showing that support, watching on, on tele YouTube and, you know, on

the socials and, and basically getting to know like Instagram that way.

So yeah, that's where that developed and how that moved on and how I

chose to, you know, submerge myself in something else to help me forget,

again, something that was quite negative and that was going on at the time.

Other than, as I say, making sure I got access to my daughter and being there for

her every time I could, could get away.

But I find myself in Tric in North Yorkshire somewhere I was fairly

familiar with as the sergeant major of the drill wing and yeah, in charge

of the Army School of Ceremonial being the assurance to the British Army's

drill and, and training as well as obviously going and visiting training

establishments and making sure that the, the drill packages would be delivered.

I was in charge of obviously the basic and the advanced drill courses

and for the first time also explained and exposed to the planning for

military funerals and repatriations of which I was heavily involved with.

In regards to my latter senior part of my career.

It is.

Make important to touch on you.

You only, you only briefed.

You mentioned it once about you, your ex, now ex-wife that you know,

you, you did right by your daughter.

You were always there.

You mentioned your daughter a lot.

What you didn't do is have anything bad to say.

There was no animosity, no animosity in your voice

whatsoever towards your ex-wife.

It was a, she made a decision and you respected it.

I think that's, that's a very grown up thing to do.

It's easy to hate ex-partners when something comes crashing down.

You know, I've had a divorce myself, and it's, and I wasn't the man you

were with that I was, although it was my choice, it was very bitter.

And I think that is testament to you, Tony, as a, as who you are.

You know, you, you always put everybody else before yourself and your fringe.

You know, you, you have an ex-wife, which you shared 13 years together,

and I'm sure not all of it happy, but I'm sure not all of it negative.

And there's some fond memories there, which, which actually you

should be proud of and cherish them.

But your daughter, how is your relationship at this point with her?

You know, you, you're saying you're, every chance you get, you're going to

see her and you have access to her still.

Yep.

So Alexis is 17 now.

When that happened, she was 10.

She came to live with me when I left the army, so jumped forward to.

August or jump back really in time.

Yeah.

To August 20 23.

And I'd left the Army and she chose to come and live with me.

And, and that was her choice.

That was her choice.

And you know, you've just mentioned the word Amic, babe, but I did warn her,

her mother, that was, that that would come with a little bit of karma and I

was made up when she made that decision.

By that stage, I'd found a new partner and obviously I'd, you know,

let Alexis know that, you know, that was moving forward as well.

And I'd given it a gap of five years before moving on to, you know, to, to

finding somebody new that I could be with.

And, you know, there was, you know, an element of loneliness as well

that way there was another form of loneliness that that creeped in.

And though they just needed to, to amalgamate and I needed

something to, like a jigsaw piece to fill that gap as it were.

Now as we move into her lighter education, her sixth form post

secondary education, she's chosen to go and live back with her mother.

That was quite hard to deal with, but something that as a dad I have to support

and I can't put up those barriers.

I can't be negative towards that.

You know, those are lessons that, that she'll learn in life and, and she'll

understand if she made the right decision.

She'll find that out, obviously as, as time moves forward.

But it was hard initially, but we still see each other.

She's a working young lady now.

She's got a good job and hopefully she keeps that up and I know that'll

limit how much time I get to see her.

But she's working in a, a restaurant so I can always book a table and yeah, and

go and see her and have her wait on me.

That'll be nice.

Yeah.

Where, where do you get your moral compass from?

Tony, I wanna bring you back to your mum, you know, in your younger years and you

were going out, this woman selflessly grafting for you and your siblings, you

know, to allow your daughter to go back.

She's expressed that I want to go out to mum mate, be at

location, whatever it may be.

You know, I think some parents would be trying to plant seeds in there, rightly

or wrongly, probably for selfish reasons.

'cause I could imagine that, not as a parent myself, but she's your world.

She, you know, you turn down UKSF to, to put her first and be there.

How, how do you swallow that in a, and I suppose it is in, in a

selfishness to want to be with your, your child to, to allow her to do it.

How do you, how do you keep your moral compass pointed in north

so, so firmly with that one?

It's just 'cause I don't want to create any negativity.

I tried working quite hard with people that were in the immediate family group

when obviously everything fell apart.

To try and keep all the negativity around my daughter out of the conversation.

I didn't want her ears listening to other people's opinions of what had gone on.

It's for them to have an opinion but not share that, obviously with my

daughter, my daughter is, and, and many people experience it, but would

have that division between her mom and dad, and trying to find that balance

between them would be hard enough.

So again, I did my level best to, to not speak ill and, and people around me to

not speak Ill, you know, my family, I just didn't want that negativity towards her.

Military wise, it's just, and I think I've said it a few times and put it up

on, on socials, you know, I'd had some pretty bad experiences with leaders

who could call themselves leaders.

You have to treat people how you want to be treated.

And there's many people that do it, you know, and, and use the analogy

about, you know, treat the waiter how, how you want to be treated.

You know, they're a working person as well.

It's, it just comes from, from that element of like the development side of

it and, you know, the, the changing in the Army's template and just like the leader's

acronym and all that sort of stuff.

How.

You want to, to be received is how you, you know, communicate

and talk to everybody from the lowest level to the highest level.

That engagement, it means a lot.

You know, anyone can be that scream in school, but you're only

ever gonna be perceived as that.

You have to have an understanding of, you know, that interaction

with everybody on every level.

We've all been at those different levels.

We didn't have camera phones and all that sort of stuff when we were young soldiers,

but we all have stories and we all have experiences so we know what's going on.

You just have a level of temperament into how to understand it a little bit more.

And that's where sometimes in the office with the young soldiers as

a sergeant major, those stories.

And you could have a little r smile on your face 'cause you

knew what, what was happening.

You knew how to handle it.

And again, like with welfare sides of it, if you'd have had those experiences

I did, you can just understand, sympathize a little bit more.

Yeah.

You know, and I have personal experience with that from you as well.

Tony, you said you, when you were working the drill wing as as a WA one, that's

when we had our first interaction.

You very kindly invited myself and combat fueled up to a, a BFF event that

you were, you were running and did also hear the sergeant major side of you.

Back then when I think people were.

Being a little bit noisy when you were speaking, and I remember it

clear as day that bellowing word silence and then just very calmly

listening, power of the Sergeant Major.

And it was, but also at that time you, you know, there was then guys of all

different ranks, regardless of it was a BFF event or not, you know, you could

see how much respect you commanded through, through respect, not fear.

And I think it's very different when you are a warrant officer.

Any rank for that fact.

It can be you respect the rank, not the person.

But I think after witnessing it first had a meeting you for the first time.

I'm sure people respected the rank as well, but more so I think

people respected you as a person.

You know, when, when Tony spoke, people listened and it was always for the,

the betterment of everybody else.

And that, that first BFF event was, it was brilliant.

You know, it was absolutely, it was our first, like one of the

first military things we, we did.

And I'm very selfishly gonna ask you what, why eyes, what made you reach out to, to

combat fuel to say, do you wanna come?

I mean, I suspect a bit, the reason wasn't for any personal gain, it was

more, more to support the soldiers.

But, but why combat fuel?

Why not any of the big mainstream companies?

So the, the piece that had linked that in was obviously as I reached out to

you and the support that you'd shown me.

In regards to looking for those products to help support myself in that initial

fitness journey, the most important being, obviously, will I make A-A-C-D-T pass?

And from that point late, I think it was late 2017 that I'd messaged you

and all the way through till that point up in Kerick, that's what I

relied on those passes, those stamps, those certificates, and then being

able to relay those back, you know, that mutual support was, was there.

So the inclusion in, in Kerick and the British Army Warrior of

Fitness was to set the standard.

The, the standard is always what people will remember.

And I know that that standard has been followed on.

People have taken snippets of what they've seen as a junior when they were a junior

then and now as seniors and staffies, they're now delivering those events.

And it's, it's nice to see sort of mirrors and, and I've laughed and joked about

having Chesterfield and yeah, in the warmup area and all that sort of stuff.

But then to me that was important about setting the right tone and

having, you know, the nutrition company having businesses and it was

only veteran owned that I brought in.

It was important, and especially in the notebook that I have, and I've still

got you all stacked up on top of each other and who I was gonna bring in.

And why it was important that it looked like it did, because that delivered

the standard of what is now and what everybody does in these competitions.

As British Army Warrior Fitness has grown, everyone's trying

to, to create the next level.

And yeah, it's nice to know that was one of the first to do it and say,

this is what it should look like.

This is what a briefing should look like.

And you know, in the military, as you say, the Sergeant Major can come out.

Now I've got that experience outside.

You can't talk to civilians in a, on a briefing there for a competition.

Like, like I close down the room to say, listen in and watch the demonstrations.

This is the standards that we expect in the competition format.

You can't do that outside.

But in the military space as a sergeant major, you could, to touch on that

quickly, completely outta context, do you miss being a sergeant Major?

Do you miss that?

I don't wanna say power that comes with the role, but you, you understand what

I mean when I say, do you miss that job?

I miss that job.

I miss everything that that job brought, but I miss like, the engagement

with everybody in that diverse space of, you know, the infantry

training center as it was then.

There's just so many different people that you can interact with.

It was like the Royal Military Academy Sanders.

There's just a wide breadth of, of person from senior officer due to junior

soldier that you can interact with.

And it depends how personable you are.

So as that sergeant major, everyone's looking at, is he gonna say hello?

Is he gonna talk to me?

Jesus, he's actually just spoken to me and he is interested.

Well, family, and, but that's how to engage.

And I miss that element.

I got more of that when I went to, to Weinburg and I got the

inclusion of the civilian into a very unique person up in Edinburgh.

But yeah, I, I'll never, ever in any job get that interaction that I got with, with

this, the soldier from being a sergeant manager and ke keeping us in Wick At

this time, you, you sort of started b as it is known today when you were in that

job as well for helping bff you just started, so you found CrossFit, you'd

found fitness going through a divorce.

What was it That was CrossFit, functional fitness tactic, whatever we wanna call it.

What made you gravitate towards that over juujitsu cycling, any other sport?

What, what was it, what was that key part of that pull factor for you?

So right then it was really the, the, the rapid growth

rate of CrossFit on the scene.

The Army had chosen not to, you know, pay the rates to be called CrossFit, but the

REF and the, the Royal Navy had so they had CrossFit, they had fixed location.

They were naming the gymnasium's CrossFit boxes, and they were

getting personnel qualified.

We had qualified people in the army, you know, the, the CrossFit

level ones, CrossFit level twos.

But it wasn't an uptake and that's something that's grown since then.

Watching the Army branch into it and allowing, you know, fixed units

to name CrossFit boxes in their establishments, which is great.

But it was also that challenge, the fact that jujitsu wasn't as big as it is now.

And ice baths weren't anything either.

Not good for recovery.

Same from that point on.

I mean, I was a runner before I said it, you know, if you could move,

Lord, you know, you were looked on as a junior soldier to be that

next person that could do well.

If you could move weight and you could run fast and have 20 snouts

and, you know, black coffee, you were that net next guy for promotion.

But it's the challenge of it.

Like it was always something new to learn and it was so

hard, like finishing a workout.

You were on your feet, on your back, sprawled around high fiving people.

I didn't get that experience until late, you know, 2019 when I built up

the courage to enter my CrossFit box, you know, where I live in Preston.

I was training alone, but then in the, the military environment going to the

gym and there was individuals doing things and I was training along with the

British Army Warrior Fitness and alongside the open piece of the CrossFit Open.

But I never found that community unless you chose to grow it.

So it wasn't until we got to Crick that started doing sessions in the

evening, running the community three days a week, and then using the people

who are around me to also deliver like that cross grin strength piece.

So we had an army strongman competitor.

We had an army power lifting competitor that brought those different elements

into the evening training sessions.

And it just made a community of all different ranks, as I've said, that,

you know, it was first name terms, none of this rank piece in the gym.

And then everyone was just having fun.

It was everyone all in, in the room warm up and taking part

in the, the the teaching phase.

And if they wanted to stick around for the workout.

And that's all we were doing.

Going online, ripping the workout offline and just, just having some fun learning

about scaling workouts and yeah, just building that community for the British

Army Warrior Fitness CrossFits side of it.

And then, yeah, just having a laugh.

So it's that community, the brotherhood that we have in the military in

sport without rank, did that then naturally make you a better person

and better soldier, would you say?

Yeah.

'cause it was rounding off the fitness element was, was perfect 'cause

obviously it was right for the job.

It would allowing obviously all the physical attributes to, to

improve and was never, you know, detrimental to the job role.

And just that character folk knowing that they could be a little bit apprehensive.

We had different people coming in and we had more females coming from

different barracks to, to come Yep.

To train in the evening, you know, and we had a, a solid group of, of

ladies and, and Sherry and Daisy who were, were reaching out to other

barracks across the, the garrison.

And more and more people were, were arriving to, to take part.

But it's the fact that we had Lance corporals from the driving space.

We had corporals from the infantry space sergeants.

You know, all the way up to, you know, myself as a a w one officers

all taking part, but on first name terms, it's something new.

But again, in that gym space develops relationships that

across, especially the infantry.

And as I said that there was other cat badges, but it's relationships

where folk can reach out and ask questions of other people.

And, you know, it's just like a network, basically.

A networking of communications and, and, and working relationships.

So yeah, I think it was a, a proper benefit.

Awesome.

And it, it is nice to see that both is still so prevalent in the

military, the Army should of say today.

You know, I think something you helped to, to start and really drive forward has

been the uptake on, it's been phenomenal.

You know, I, I personally attend the, the board finals every year

and it's great to see the caliber of guys that have gone through and

done it and just shout 'em out.

Josh Greenfield, one of ours who went and won it this year, which was brilliant.

You know, he's only been in the army two years.

Came close to an end the first year having been in the Army at Battalion.

Well, he hadn't even got to Batal.

No, he was still in training.

He was just passed outta training and went to compete and he came,

I think he came fifth, I believe.

Won or came second and almost every workout would start, then came dead last

on the last one because he was, but you know that, that's the nature of bff.

Yeah.

It is not just CrossFit, it's, it's military orientated functional

fitness which was brilliant.

So we've.

Been at Kerick, you've done the job, you've implemented both,

you know, your, your life in the military is looking pretty good.

You are then posted away as a W one, as the Garrison Sergeant

Major to Edinburgh Castle.

Yep.

It's a pretty cool job.

It was, it was amazing.

As I went to conduct that move I'd just touched on obviously the

army's repatriations and funerals.

At that stage I'd been involved in the planning for the Duke of Edinburgh.

And on that, the actual transition north, when I'd taken all my kitten equipment

up to Edinburgh and we received the phone call and it was all stop, all my boxes

got dropped off and it was straight back down south to Kerick mobilized the team.

And then, I don't even think I was in appointment as the

Garrison Sergeant Major.

I was probably still the sergeant major of the drill wing.

But we were driving south ready to enact the training piece for the British Army

on delivering the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral, which saw myself and the officer

command in the Army School of Ceremonial.

Running the color sergeants and then ultimately all the different divisions

that that took place in the training elements for, for, for, for Bryan.

Let's go into detail for, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit

there on the Duke of Burg's funeral, but what, what a pivotal role you did play.

Like please do go into a bit of detail on your involvement in

it and what you, what you did.

So the, the whole mobilized force had come down and, and during that two years

at the Army School of Ceremonial, and I've been to, to London on a number of

occasions to to cross the T's and dot the i's as it were on all the specifics,

all the paperwork, all the plans.

And that had included wrecking different spaces to bring the Navy Army and

the Air Force together in regards to executing the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral.

That included obviously assessing things like the naval gun carriage,

you know, go into a, you know, a naval training establishment and watching

them as the, you know, the Army School of Ceremonial Sergeant Major was pretty

impressive and, and well received.

And it just gave me another string to the bow, as it were.

But then it was a case of where is it gonna go and where can we

find a location that could be representative of, of Windsor in itself.

And myself and the officer commanding the Army School of Ceremonial

ultimately looked outright.

Majority of the accommodation that was available to us.

It was a case of making this look like Windsor, as it were.

And the space that was available to us was pretty much all of the large car

parks that BR has and the accommodation and armor facilities that got to get that

level of capacity into one location and then run training scenario scenarios.

And it happened, and that was the place that was decided upon.

So yeah, when the call in notice was given, everybody assembled and, and

we mobilized and with one of the ROC groups attached to us as the Army School

of Ceremonial, they pretty much built what our vision for Windsor Castle

would be, or with 18 to 24 tents.

And we used them as large gateways created using one large car

park the Windsor Quadrangle.

So I'm measuring it out and placing it on this car park.

And then all the road network for pair Bryant was pretty

much the, the marching route.

So the winds a long walk.

And then all the way through between two barracks we used as the

route down for the street liners.

So obviously that they got their run out.

And then we used the other Barrett Square as the, the chapel location in Windsor

and where the guard would turn out.

And then, yeah, ran three different groups of training and myself and the officer

of commanding were, were responsible for the the quadrangle contingent.

So training everybody there.

I mean, there's plenty of social media on that and, you know, lots

of of people saw what, what actually went on on the day, but an absolutely

massive learning curve in regards to delivering forced training of that scale.

Then well, I'll say that it was my first taste of no recognition,

shall I say, and the bitter pill that that is to swallow when other

people get recognized for I would say the hard work that others put in.

But that's how that works.

Or yeah, we got on the team did an absolutely amazing job, can't fault any

effort that they put in, and we delivered something that then enabled us to, to

move forward with other operational planning that was subsequently being

enacted when I moved to Edinburgh.

Just to touch on that as well.

So it sounds like what you had there by explaining it, is that

you've had months of preparation.

You know, you'd had the phone call that Duke of Edinburgh had passed.

How long was it from that phone call to the funeral?

Six days.

So it's, you know, it, it sounds, as you explained, like this is months and

months of preparation, but six days, six days to, to arrange the queen's

husband's funeral is, is incredible.

And I mean, for many that you could not have more of a high than, than a

arrange in that, which obviously we'll come on to touch on a little bit more.

And as important as that is, it doesn't quite touch on what is to

come, does it after this, you spoke about not having the recognition, the

recognition you, you deserved if you want to, who did get the recognition

and what, what was given to them?

So

again, there are certain ranks that within the context of whether they

were horsing, social media, whether they were the face of explaining what

was going on it's taken into context of other people were recognized

for their roles that they played

and not everybody that was, was actually involved, was taken

into recognition in my eyes.

Like to deliver the whole force training.

There was only a mention in a book to the Army School of Ceremonial, and they

definitely delivered all of that training.

Without that training, without that time, without that, you know, effort

that went in the force wouldn't have been prepared because certain

per personnel who were recognized

typically only showed up at the end.

And, you know, I I, I'll be able to obviously, you

know, give that information.

Yeah.

It's a tough one because you, you don't know obviously what,

what could be redacted, what could get, get spoken about.

It's it's a tough one when you see senior officers in London district awarded medals

and, you know, you, your opposite number from London District awarded recognition.

But then your entire team that, you know, put the heart and soul into

the whole training of the force element, not even given a thank you.

And that was, that was rough.

Even if it

didn't even receive a thank you.

That was the bitter pill to swallow.

And I believe.

Something having voiced my discontent about that was something that

affected me later on in my career.

Unless, let's talk about that.

So you are still let, you've now post funeral, gone up in a position of

Garrison SAR major at Edin McCastle.

Yep.

During this period a very, very cordial, which we can touch on a bit, but you

in the latter part of your career and a natural progression for you would

be to become a, an officer would be to commission as a late entry officer.

Yep.

You weren't successful.

No.

So every senior soldier has the aspiration to take part in the

office only office selection board.

And that is that opportunity to have continued service.

And, you know, that means in the ranks of the late entry officer, but

you still get to do what you love.

And I'd had two of those opportunities.

The bitter pill for me is that I wasn't selected on either one.

And the first time I'd passed was when I was at the Army School of Ceremonial.

I'd gone down, done absolutely everything that they'd asked, done all

my training, beat up for it whilst doing all these other tasks and executed it.

I received the pass, I was briefed I'd, I'd passed.

But in the decision and in the promotion piece the decision was taken to promote

three senior warrant officers than me because I had the time left to serve.

And at the time, I think I had three years left to go.

So, you know, I, I towed the line as it were.

I didn't kick up a fuss.

And, you know, these were senior soldiers that I knew and, you know,

that I'd gone on this course with.

So having passed, I took the next step in the warrant officer chain and moved

to Garrison Sergeant Major, but knowing that I'd passed the Army Officer Selection

Board, it was a, a big, a big thing.

And so at, at this point, was it a, were you under any

disillusion that you wouldn't be commissioning in as an officer?

Did you have the impression that you were going to do this job as GSM and

at the end of that you would then have your career rightfully extended and

you would receive your commission?

I think there was a bit of that.

I didn't, as we go onto the next course that I attended, I didn't put

an nonchalant attitude onto that.

I still did the same level of beat up.

I still had to undergo the next Army Officer Selection board and

still gave it absolutely everything.

And yeah, I'd already passed it once, but I thought that meant

that I would be the senior.

Household division warrant officer taking part in that and then having

already passed it, you know, this is you passing an Army Officer selection board.

Yeah, it was, it was rough when, when it was announced that I wasn't taking

forward and, and I didn't even though for the second time that I passed and

it ultimately then came down to it was someone else's decision and

somewhere in the household division they decided that my time was done.

And

even two passes at the Army office selection board didn't mean

that my time in the Army would continue, which was rough to take.

And I'm, I remember you telling me, and I was pissed off for you if,

you know you're a standup guy, had a standup career, you, you've done some

incredible things throughout service.

Do you hold resentment towards, and I wanna call it an individual, had

made that decision that you were no longer to continue service and you

would not be receiving a commission?

I found it very hard to take.

There were yet to be some, some dark days individually.

I. Did hold resentment, but as you said before, you know, there's, there's things

that, that sort of stuff does to you and you need to step away from mentally.

So it took a little bit longer than usual, but I sort of let that go.

What helped me let that go was sort of the messaging that I was receiving

from people from across the Army.

Letters I was receiving, letters I've still got from, you know, Lieutenant

Colonels, one general loads and loads of people reaching out on

social media, whatever platform.

I received so many messages with support.

But ultimately it isn't the soldier, it isn't the veteran

that allows you to continue.

It's the, it's the officer and you know, the pen is Marty you than

sowed and the pen will always win.

The pen is wielded by the officer.

And, and they made that decision.

Someone made that decision.

Do I believe it was the major general of London district from a,

a previous speaking out of turn as it, as it was that made that happen?

Probably.

But you know, I can stand up to all, as I said to the, the Army Sergeant

major, you know, I did their tests.

I passed, I know I passed and.

Yeah.

New processes needed to be put in place to make sure that other soldiers

in the future weren't affected.

And those changes, I believe some have been affected now and, and you know,

there's still work to do on that.

But you know, my time in the Army has come to an end.

As I said, I don't remain bitter towards them.

It gives you too many, too many issues to think on.

Yeah.

The army runoff sea drills.

Right.

You had that integrity to stand up, not just for yourself, but

for the Army School of ceremonial to say, where's our recognition?

I think you keep your head held high, Tony,

because not only did all of this happen, our beloved queen sadly passed.

I know we all hold her very, very fondly.

Who arranged her funeral in Scotland.

That was probably, you know, the pinnacle of any soldier's service.

I wasn't the only soldier to finish that year.

But a way to end, obviously I found myself in Scotland and on the

learning account that was produced, the post exercise report for.

The Duke of Edinburgh, it was basically given to me as a task

to do the same in Scotland.

So with all the learning account that took place, I just went

through it with a fine tooth comb.

I was looking at the plan for Scotland, found myself at Edinburgh Airport

during that tenure, obviously in the first year, and within the first

six months, struck off what was the, the train element of the move.

So she was originally due to move from Edinburgh train station

at Waverley down the west coast of United Kingdom by Carlisle.

And it just was, was too much.

So that was the first thing that I then got into effect.

How could that be achieved?

And, you know, quite fortunate, the RAF, you know, come up with that

contingency plan of moving a Bay Air.

And that was the, the plan that was affected.

So the day before we were due to brief Scotland's plan for the first time

to absolutely everybody involved.

And when, I mean everybody, I mean absolutely everybody,

you know, police, ambulance, Scottish Fire and Rescue, anybody.

Edinburg Castle, Edinburg Garrison, the historical fire in Scotland.

Anybody that.

Had any part to play was, was in Redford Barracks that day.

And I found myself on the time Mark at Edinburgh Airport with my phone

taking photos and then speeding back in a car, scored a, not speeding,

I was under a flu, light escort.

Trying to put this down on PowerPoint as quickly as I can using Google

Maps and then getting ready to brief, and Ed Marie Garrison commander was

briefing everybody as I arrived.

The introduction was done to the room about who I was, what my job

was, and then pretty much straight into this is what the plan is.

And yeah.

And, and just for those that don't know, when you say you briefed everyone, this

isn't a w one briefing his guys, like you're not briefing soldiers, are you?

No, no.

So the most senior person in the room was probably Dr. Joseph

Morrow qc that's Queen's council.

So he's in charge of absolutely everything to do with at the time.

Her Majesty, now his Majesty, the king in Scotland.

You had

Scottish government, Edinburgh Council.

All the different branches of Edinburgh council, so East and West

Loathing Scottish Fire and Rescue, ambulance Service Police, all the

senior officers of those units.

Then every single commanding officer, quartermaster sergeant major of the

Royal Regiment Scotland the reserve units of the Royal Regiment, Scotland,

Redford Barracks, absolutely everybody.

This auditorium gymnasium that was converted was, was cha block.

And I'd never seen as many, you know, senior people in one place.

And it was just a case of letting them know how would you, in the next 18

months, that this would all come to pass, that I would go to different units, do

different types of assurance, double check that that things were happening using

51 Brigade as the vehicle to do that.

And then yeah, ultimately put Scotland in the best place possible to, you

know, enact should it be requested.

The funeral for I Majesty the Queen, which was a scary enough task as it was.

And then I thought I would just be handing it over.

No one ever thought that it would come to Fortuity, but it did.

Was that a little bit of recognition?

You know, you'd been very much swept under the carpet and there was no formal

thanks for what you'd done to be there in that room at that, that initial point.

Being trusted to deliver this plan to, to have, not just delivering the

plan from your, the, the guy that you carried on from, who was also a friend

of yours, but to, to change the plan up entirely to know that you commanded

the respect from people to, to listen.

And it was, you know, you said it was train to air force, what you said went,

and it was, that must have felt good to know that people were, we trust this guy.

We trust his plan.

Indeed.

I'm just gonna pause there really quickly, Tony.

So I hope I make a smile with this as well, Tony.

But during all of this time, all of this incredible stuff that you've

been doing, I think the biggest accolade that you have is that you're

still a combat field athlete during this time, which is pretty big.

I knew I'd get a smile.

You sent me a bottle

from the mess when you were there.

So you, you've been to her house recently and were you

surprised to see that up there?

Yeah, I, you know, those little memento are, you know, there's a lot of work

put in by a good friend of mine up in Scotland in regards to, to doing

the different drinks that he did.

And yeah, usually you see that.

Folk have, have drank them and discarded 'em.

And like myself, whenever I've been given, you know, a bottle or

whatever, it, it sits as it does with my collection in my dining room.

So I like to keep that collection unopened and for prosperity.

So it is nice to see that, you know, people have, have retained them and,

you know, they are for drinking that I believe they are for, for gifting,

for special occasions, et cetera.

But those ones, especially for Medi McCastle were unique that they were,

there were only certain quantities produced and it's it was, it was, it

was a nice, nice touch to just see it sitting there on, on Privateer

place on a shelf in your office space.

And yeah, you know, I've only ca there's a few bottles that I have

one, the first one I have was post Herrick the bottle of beer that looks

like a muddy puddle of water now.

A few from other individuals that won't mentioned jobs and stuff they're in, but

they're, you know, and you are, you are up there with it and, and I hope little old

me running a, a sports nutrition company.

And the impact you, you had on us.

And I just wanna quickly touch on that.

You, and this isn't a plug on a discount code, but there's a reason behind it.

You, you have a discount code for combat fuel care to share

as what your discount code is.

So my discount code is Inspire 15 and it's very grateful for that.

But the word inspire, Tony, y you know, I, I don't know if you do,

but you inspire so many people.

Wherever I go throughout the military, you know, everybody knows who you are.

And I've always met with the same attitude, which is a what a good guy.

You know?

And I mean, absolutely everybody.

I've never heard a bad word about you, which is rare.

I couldn't say the same would be said for myself.

You, you know, you, you, you command respect wherever you go.

And I think even more so what we're about to touch on is probably pivotal

into those reasons why I think you're a good guy through and through.

But back onto track of you and Ed Edinburgh, you thought that these

plans for the queen's funeral were just something you had to do.

It was just part of the job, fortunately.

It wasn't just part of the job.

You had to enact on those plans, didn't you?

Yeah.

Yeah, that was some time.

Again,

the pressure obviously that, that came with, that was

something that I felt after it.

And the whole time, I just wanted to make sure that, especially the young

lads, obviously my bearer party and you know, there's plenty of stories about.

All the tries and tribulations that they went through, you know, the,

the Royal Regiment of Scotland had to swap, you know, the personnel

around in regiments as they should do to allow for career progression.

But that company, the balaclava company, the Fifth Royal Regiment of

Scotland, you know, really did sacrifice quite a lot because I put them under

enough pressure because of the standard that they needed to be at.

And the whole force pretty much just understood the task, but they were

always gonna be the focal point.

So even when I got everybody together, including Levitons, the funeral directors

and the police to do the motorcade that everybody saw from Balmoral to

Edinburgh, you know, up until the early morning rehearsals in Hollywood with the

Borough party, which was really hard to obviously, you know, understand how a

royal palace works in regards to trying to bring in transit vans and block off the

front entrance and not let people think that something is taking part, like a

training scenario that involves a coffin.

And, you know, lo and behold, if it was seen or photographed anybody, especially.

From an up high office seat in any hour of the day.

We always did early morning rehearsals.

But

yeah, I knew that the, the world would be watching on, especially

on those young lads shoulders, obviously carrying her majesty.

And they really did pull it out for, for myself, we'd done enough training

across being in Redford, obviously training the groups for the different

guard of honors and, you know, the, the different proclamation, parades and, you

know, guard of honors, et cetera, that they had to conduct during the, the days

of, you know, receiving a magistrate from Bal Maral, King's reception,

the proclamation, prayers, et cetera.

It all just went like clockwork because we'd already done all the rehearsals,

all the regiments had given up their, their time to rehearse these things.

And, you know, apart from a few changes and obviously time-based elements,

which affected, you know, any sort of parade with soldiers collapsing,

et cetera, there was still the, you know, underlying, this is her majesty.

You know, they, they looked the part, there was very few elements that went

wrong and ultimately that reflected in our post exercise report when

we had to generate obviously what went right, what went wrong, and.

I know we delivered a better package than what London did because I

was at the, the overall sweep up.

And by that stage we'd already rewritten his Majesty, the

King's funeral plan for Scotland.

And we delivered that at the, the post exercise report phases as

well for a Majesty's funeral, which just held us in high regard with

white all and London District.

And yeah, just the feedback was absolutely phenomenal.

Was you, so we, the public found out, I think it was around 6:00

PM of her majesty's passed in, you found out I believe around midday,

so it would've been a bit later.

So about three o'clock that afternoon I found out.

And what timeframe did you have until to, to move her from

Balmoral to Edinburgh Castle?

So once that had been announced, we had 48 hours to get the,

the troops to Redford Barracks.

And that calling notice went out immediately.

And we had, for instance, the band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland

complete in Cyprus at the time.

So obviously getting hold of them.

You can imagine everybody was trying different things.

I was phoning the drum major international Darling chords.

Just, yeah, we got everybody, all different flights.

They worked so hard to, to get back, you know, 51 brigade Clarks and you

know, all the captains, everybody.

Two for nail, all the seven servants drivers, everything was put onto to Rega,

gather the force training scenarios.

Two Scotts were out on training.

Three Scotts were on exercise.

Everybody just stopped what they're doing as they should do for that call notice.

And then they all came together within that timeframe and

then it was straight on.

So by that stage, my feet hadn't touched the floor.

I was literally here, there and everywhere, all at the same time,

being driven mostly by blue light.

The city went into lockdown.

There was only two or three examples of UK armed forces not getting through the

blue light cordons, which super rare.

Just because of the cords.

And then the police liaison officers that we had in regards to establishing

vehicle call signs and allowing that information to be disseminated through

the 51 brigade talk as it were.

And really, you know, that close operating proximity with liaison officers.

So.

Yeah, it seemed to flow very, very well, especially with the Royal Regiment of

Scotland Reserve units running that and, and coordinating everything in

the background, you know, their CEO doing an amazing job with his team on

behalf of the 51 Brigade commander.

So Brigadier Ben was, was overall in charge of, of all those movements.

And then all the training scenarios, as I said, had been assured by myself and,

and people that I brought up from the Army School of Ceremonial, my previous job.

And we knew that the, the regiments were ready with their guard of honors,

et cetera, with then sort of affect the, the parades and, and deliver.

And then it was just getting straight into the timeline of the, the first

was the proclamation of his majesty the king followed shortly on from

the proclamation that happened at St. James' Palace in London.

We affected ours at the Meka Cross with Dr. Joseph Morrow Queen's

counsel, who, his full title is the Lord Lion King of Orange for Scotland.

He did the proclamation announcement at the Meerkat Cross in Edinburgh, which

was just outside St. Gil's Cathedral, which is where everybody saw a majesty

come into ultimately laying in rest there before she departed for Edinburg Airport.

And yeah, like I say, it all went really, really well.

The training scenarios had had set us up for success.

Just that understanding, that communication to the lowest level, I

believe on that personable thing as well, they understood sort of my intent

and it wasn't just them working for the Road Regiment Scotland, but I felt that

they were working for me as well, which showed in their delivery, you know, this.

Yeah.

I'm super grateful to everybody that took part in any form of those parades

from the Royal Regiment, Scotland, anybody that was involved from the

castle, anybody that was there from, you know, police contingents, et cetera.

It just, as people have told me, it was an amazing experience.

Very, very humbling, upsetting at times, you know, especially

speaking and listening to veterans on the sides from the crowds.

You know, time I was off social media for a long, long time just because of

the amount of messages that were there and I didn't answer people for days.

You know, there's all sorts of different stories.

You know, I remember falling asleep in, in my dinner one evening 'cause

I'd just been on my feet nonstop.

I was still in all my ceremonial uniform.

I'd just come from Hollywood briefing, you know, the king and the Princess

Royal and the other members on how they were gonna stand and rest.

And once that had finished and I left and, and spoke to the crowds, obviously

the royal contingent sped off as they do back down to Hollywood Palace.

And I had the walk from St. Giles up to the castle.

But you, I didn't stop for, I can't even remember the time I was

chatting to absolutely everybody.

People wanted to know what was going on.

And it was humbling to see the crowd pats on the back and in just like the profound

sense of loss from people who'd, you know, come to see, you know, the parade.

And then got a chance to speak to Tony from the council state who ended up as a

warrant officer in charge of the funeral.

And I didn't wanna not talk to folk.

It was just the sort of natural thing to do.

But that comes from that, I think being personable with people.

And it's very easy just to black, black and fork out and just head straight off.

But I think that's what's wrong, you know, in the, the military it's about being open

and not giving away absolutely everything.

But you know, you have the chance to stop and talk and you giving

people some, some of your time.

Yeah.

You know, they'd, they'd shown up to, to see her majesty and, and the troops.

It was easy to do.

So yeah, just circle back round to you not receiving your

commission first time round.

You wouldn't have been in this position though if you had received it?

No, the first time round I would've promoted having

only just arrived Edinburgh.

And then in the next April I would've moved on.

So I wouldn't have even done, I don't think, eight months in, in position And

effectively I would've been promoted to lay entry captain and moved off somewhere,

potentially within the household division.

So I wouldn't have been able to obviously execute that plan.

Yeah.

In a way grateful to that person that stopped you because that's

given you the queen aside.

What a memory, what an achievement to do, to be the guy that helped execute that

part of the Queen's funeral in Scotland.

Like that.

You played like arguably the most pivotal role in bringing everybody together,

tri service and emergency services.

And so importantly, so whether you agree with it or not, it was

because you're not Tony Gibson.

You are MVO.

We touched on how you're awarded this and it was directly from the king, wasn't it?

Yep.

You know, and that wasn't just a, can't stress it enough, you know,

whatever we might say about certain titles can be given, maybe given to

people because of positions they hold.

This isn't one of those things.

This isn't somebody, you know, or somebody that's done something or been

given recognition for something else.

Is it like obviously I knew that the time in the Army was coming

to an end and, you know, my, my exit was, was already written.

Having been unsuccessful in that second time, but having delivered, you know,

in Mag's funeral to be then awarded the member of the Victorian order and to have

it announced was, was absolutely amazing.

Like, it was just, okay, this is, this is recognition.

I'm grateful for that.

And yeah, I got the opportunity to, to go up to my, my family and Alexis came and,

and met his Majesty the King, but more importantly, like obviously the, the young

lads were there, you know, to receive their ivms for, for conveying them.

I just did the pressure on their shoulders, you know,

removing that, that coffin.

You know, I'm taking it inside Holly Rude.

And then obviously conveying it back into the hearse and with myself escorting

and whom I just see up the hill for the final time through Edinburgh.

You know, they got to take their mothers into the room and just to see each

of them receive their award and just how proud the families were of him.

I think that's what, you know, set me off in front of his majesty

because obviously all those emotions, you know, proud mothers.

It was weird 'cause then he obviously asked why I was upset and as well as

obviously being awarded that medal for, you know, ultimately planning

and conducting his mother's funeral.

You know, it's a man giving someone else a medal for, for doing that strange feeling.

But you know, I conveyed to him that it was my last day in the Army as well.

Strange, strange time and yeah, the emotion got the better on me,

but he soon snapped me out of it.

'cause you know, he put his hand up and he's, he's like high five to

my daughter and she just said I was embarrassing for crying and high five

the king and it's just like, you know, without hidden camera on the wall,

so many of those experiences happened during that funeral that, you know, I

would probably have to seek permission.

As folk have talked to me about putting it all down in a book and the

different experiences between the two funerals and just that sort of stuff.

Like it would be world leading tele had there been a camera in those rooms

to see some of the stuff that I saw.

Brothers and sisters interacting, the just a family that lost their

mum and he's given out medals.

Weird but humbling.

I'm proud.

I'm very well deserved.

It's 'cause he saw me comeback fuel tshirt.

Yeah, you had it underneath.

Right.

This, and again, every time we get to something we're like, it can't

become any more inspiring or there can't possibly be anything else like

that's your military career finished.

But it's not, you don't carry on for the king's coronation, don't you?

Yeah.

So it, I mean, most people will be in the resettlement year and obviously

you have plans of how you're gonna resettle and how you're gonna continue.

But as I said, we'd already written and delivered his Majesty's funeral plan.

And then.

Obviously we have to talk about, you know, the coronation.

So all the plan comes into effect.

Well, the King's coronation took place in London and everybody saw, and everybody

watched, you know, my namesake for London District who'd been involved in all of

the events that we'd already talked about.

He was gonna deliver that side of it, but Scotland had a

part to play in that as well.

So the planning started with, again, 51 Brigade and Dr. Joseph Morrow and

myself in regards to how historical environment Scotland would play a key

role in this with the Stone of Destiny and how it would be moved for the first

time from its keeping in Edinburgh Castle and how it would go to St.

Giles Cathedral and sit underneath the Scottish throne and then the articles

that they would then in place on his majesty and, and, and take that part on.

All of that came with the planning considerations.

So whilst most people are on their resettlement courses and worrying about

what's, what their future is, I don't know why I was sat on the computers

and still in my time there in Scotland tapping away about how we were gonna

create these plans and just, yeah, I think it was an unwillingness to withdraw

myself until it was actually complete to then not hand over something that,

that didn't have that stamp on it.

And I wanted to make sure that that was a sort of reflection

on myself, not down in tools.

And well, we got it done.

Very, very, very grateful to, you know, the officer that was working with me.

It was something I'll never forget, you know, and the civil servant,

Hillary, she was an absolute star.

Just met so many great people who understood what I was doing, who showed

concern about that resettlement process.

But I sort of tied it all in and I was happy to an extent, although I only gave

myself three months eventually in the end because I handed it over and then

I really could just sit back because, you know, I knew what was going on.

I knew how it would look, and then my time was done.

Was that, how did that make you feel?

You, you just handed this over knowing that in three months it's the last

paycheck, it's the last involvement you're gonna have wherein kit.

Yeah, I was absolutely destroyed.

It took a long, long time.

Long, long time.

I just took to terms with it.

I felt lost

for a long time.

I was probably depressed for a little bit of that till I got a grip on myself.

Started to like think, plan and execute different plans that I'd,

I'd obviously thought about post service and that think plan, execute.

It's, it stuck with me.

Just never say quit and just keep different things ticking

over just every setback.

It wasn't a simple transition.

There was those personnel in the Army that have a smooth transition.

I take my hat off dear you, 'cause I got out and I was one of those

that thought I'll be, it'll be good.

It'll be smooth.

I'll be, I'll be all right.

It wasn't, there was some rough waters and I was not, I wasn't prepared and there was

some times that it was proper rough and, you know, you've heard my partner talking

about, you know, like entitlements and, and benefits and all that sort of stuff.

And yeah, after 26 years in the army.

Yeah,

stubbornness too proud to, to talk about like taking

benefits, but got to that stage.

But it's, yeah, got a grip, got myself back into, into work

and that's what I just needed.

I just needed that.

Oh, I had no one around me to say, get a grip of yourself.

All them were gone.

And once I'd finally got a grip of myself started to, in effect different plans and

yeah, shaved the old castaway beard and cut my hair and then remembered, you know,

got a bit about myself and started to look at different roles and opportunities

and speaking to people and yeah.

And it's, can we touch on some of those bits on the low lows, Tony?

Is that okay?

Yeah.

So as you were preparing to join the prison service and your partner

had persuaded you to say, you know, you've given your life to the country,

ask for a little bit of help.

So you had a little bit of help in terms of some, some unemployment benefit,

you know, if anyone's more deserving.

I couldn't think of a more deserving person.

I really couldn't.

Without k keeping politically minded.

You were given a bit of support and then it was taken away from you and

told you that you'd gone into the prison service and you were told to pay it back.

Yeah.

Obviously everyone has their end of service review and I knew at some

stage I'd been receiving my pension.

I'd already reached out to you know, find different forms of employment

and even went as far as obviously job seeker and, you know, got involved

with my partner's advice, you know, selecting different types of

benefit, the benefit for my daughter.

And then obviously job seekers, allowance and attending the appointments, et cetera

that they have for you while you, you're waiting for the different plans that I

had sort of Lan, fire and rescue and, and the prison service as it developed.

I just did what they asked me to do.

I, I felt,

I felt awful speaking to these people on the phone, the way

they talk to you and yeah.

They phoned me up one day, told me that as I've been claiming that they'd paid

me too much, and that even though they'd given it me in installments, obviously,

that I had to pay it back as a wanter.

And that happened to the tune of a thousand pound and then 500

pound and a separate incident.

And obviously I had to pay it back in one, and that hit me quite hard.

But the reason that they'd taken that action was because I had then received,

or was in receivership of my Army pension.

So what was, you know, my lump sum, which was going towards

the house that I'd invested in, because that had been given to me.

They then canceled obviously all the, the funds that I was receiving.

'cause I'd been paid quite a substantial amount of money.

I don't understand the, the ins and outs behind it, how, you know, it's a thought.

They just,

they're not interested.

You need, and these are the things that you, you're not briefed when you leave.

Like the, you've got a lump sum, it's tax free.

However you're claiming these benefits, that's not allowed.

We're taking 'em off you.

And that's basically how it went down.

That's not a. Here's some money for nothing.

That was money for 26 years of service.

Yeah.

You see it all too often in the, in the news and like veterans and

folk getting forgotten and it's just, it's just another hurdle.

So I've never been good at jumping hurdles, so smashed through that one.

Just left with a bit of taste and I won't, I won't ever, you know, say to

people, you know, as I was being stubborn about claiming those sorts of stuff,

'cause it's, you're entitled throughout your, your career, however long it is,

you are always paying, you know, with that national insurance number and

you are always entitled to, to funds 'cause it's removed from your wages.

So I'll never say don't claim it, but it left me with a bitter taste and I want, I

won't entertain that sort of stuff again.

And I know they've got a job and they're just people doing their jobs.

But it was, it was, we say, you know, those that have served the, we're probably

the worst for it of putting our hand up and saying, I need a bit of help.

And then when you see examples like yourself, it just makes people

think, what, why would I bother?

You know, we don't want special treatment.

We don't want anything special.

We don't want more than our civilian counterparts do we?

But we want what's fair?

And you know, you, you've given so much in service of our country

that can see why you are, you had a bittersweet, I wanna call it resentment.

I have resentment for you that you, Tony didn't stop there though, did he?

You know, you, you've gone in, you've then been successful at joining

the prison service and you carry those sea drills with you again.

That integrity didn't serve you too well.

Again, if you are happy to touch on that,

so the two years I saw myself on the landings and a can't see

establishment in the Northwest yeah.

It doesn't matter who you are, what you've done, there's always gonna

be different types of leaders that you see good and bad examples of.

And

there was people that I came across in that prison service that just

were not willing to understand what experiences other people have had.

And yeah, I had,

yeah, I had a good time.

You know, prisoners are in there for a reason.

They know that.

Again, depending on how you treat people, is how you are received by the prisoners.

And you know, there's a certain line and a lot of them know straight

away what line not to cross.

Those that, that step across that line know that, you know, that's

gonna only end one way in the offices will always ultimately win.

Doesn't matter whether they get the shots in or not, the officers will

always have that individual behind the door where, you know, ultimately

they, they've placed themself so their actions, you know, speak volumes,

but it isn't always aided well by, by people in appointments.

And it wasn't.

And I came up a number of times at loggerheads with older members of the

prison service that were in leadership appointments about general treatment

and understanding of what's going on.

And one of these happened to be a governor just in regards to security

of an establishment, got this conversation about what was actually

beneficial to the security of a a site.

And he took to asking me what I knew about security.

And I just happened to mention that I knew a lot about security being a garrison

sergeant Major in London in Scotland.

Having had ownership of the security policy for a grade two listed castle

and number of barracks and security procedures at the front gate.

And then how I could easily walk into a prison, show an ID card that wasn't

actually checked, and then have access to hundreds of sets of suite keys,

which gave me access to prison cells.

And it didn't go down too well 'cause he probably felt that I was

embarrassing him in front of some of the other ears that were in the room.

And, you know, he returned me to where I was working and then sort of tried

to blacken my name, but I'd already established like a good working

relationship with other officers.

And I really did enjoy my time.

I already knew that I was leaving.

People already knew that I was going, so I wasn't afraid

to, to call these people out.

I didn't do it in front of obviously the prisoners 'cause that would've

been proper and unprofessional.

But I was not afraid at all of saying to somebody, you know, one-on-one or, you

know, within the context of the prison officers, you know, you need to look at

yourself 'cause there's a reason it's going wrong and you are one of them.

But, and it's, it was never unsolicited advice.

Was it?

You know, this governor, you were asked for an opinion.

Yeah.

What do you know?

And you, you delivered it.

Yeah, I think that's, but he did it in a condescending way.

And it that just shows that they don't have that interoperability and the skills

to handle information or feedback or the respect for others, respect for others.

You know, it just showed a negative ability to, to take any sort of criticism.

You know, he could have handled it much better, but he didn't.

He took it as a personal attack and then, you know, tried to utilize

his influence with other people.

But ultimately if we'd have come to get to know like what was happening on

the wings and who was who and what the officers were all about, you probably

would've have got to know me a bit better.

You know, other people took that time at the grass level, as I say, and, and

I had a good working relationship with lots and lots of officers, but just

came to loggerheads, I think with the, the seniors that's can take us back to

the same in military context, isn't it?

Our OCS and cos that take the time to, to talk to the troops and, and

understand and, and have time on the ground and have time for others.

Yeah.

You know, it's, it just shows that wherever we go in life, whatever we do,

be it military, civilian, wherever we are, that, you know, we know what makes

a good leader and what makes a boss.

And there's a big distinction between a boss and a leader.

Yeah, it's, it's unfortunate that you've had the bad end of some bosses.

However, what may have dampened a lot of people it.

Tony still, Trey stayed true to himself.

Remained a resilient.

I was gonna say young man.

I'm gonna call you an old man now.

Definitely old.

So again, you, you could have then post print service and

you've injured your back.

You could have turned around and that would do, I'm gonna retire,

you know, which I'm, you may be able to with your pension.

Have a nice quiet life and be, be done.

You know, you've committed your entire adult life to service of the country

through the military, prison service and your younger years commitment and

service, we'll call it, towards your family, supporting your siblings.

And Mum.

Tony isn't done yet.

There is a no, it's, what do we have next up in line?

So, lined up now is Greater Manchester Fire Rescue Service

as a whole time firefighter.

I've been very fortunate to pass that very arduous of selection processes

which see so many, you know, potential candidates fall at different hurdles.

And yeah, that's the next challenge.

18 weeks in 2026 of, you know, firefighter training.

And then we'll see.

Hopefully I'll be able to.

Get through all the training and then hopefully the old body, you know, sees

me out into another form of skill.

I'm just looking forward to being,

being the new guy again, being the very, very newest of freshest faces.

But learning all the skills, so hiding it back to being a trainee again, getting

to sink my teeth into everything to do with firefighting, learning everything

that there is, couplings, hoses, drills, engine, whatever it, whatever

context it is, breathing apparatus.

I just, I'm looking forward to that challenge.

Being able to be the older individual this time round and my life skills

maybe will be helpful to a youngster within that training context.

And then seeing that different demographic, and this time it'll

be roles reverse where I'll be one of the oldest and then I should

see them come on leaps and bounds.

I don't think I'll have any, any issues with ironing in my firefighter's uniform

or shining a set of boots, but, you know, I think everything else will

come with regards to like the, the practical stuff and hopefully I'll be

able to keep up with the youngsters.

You, you seem pretty happy about being able to start, you

know, you've pa passed election.

It's for those that don't know, like the firefighting course, we

say Iris and, and as in the military might laugh at it and be like, oh.

Arduous, come on.

But from what we've told us, it, it really is a, a hard selection process.

It, you know, I mean the attrition rate or the success rate, we'll call

it, it is, it's so small, isn't it?

It is.

It's out of how many people apply, actually get through to

start just to start trading.

It's again, a lot of work and effort as an older man went into the basics.

So back to English and mathematics.

So that's where the highest attrition rate is obviously on that, that aptitude

side of it with the, the arithmetic and obviously just standard English.

But then I think people pay a little bit of lip service and that's where

they go wrong in regards to, oh, it's, you know, not as arduous as well.

It is because you're being asked to do quite a lot and there are certain

specifications and a lot of it is about listening to the instruction as well,

not just going all guns in as we were.

'Cause if you get the, the verbal instruction wrong on what you're being

told to do, that has a detrimental effect to other members in the team

that are on the ground as firefighters.

And that's the basic that they want you to get right.

Being able to listen and then, you know, you'll develop into those roles

as your firefighter career goes on.

But initially it's about listening to the instruction being fit to

carry out the instruction and then.

Yeah, thought we'd fall at those hurdles as well.

And are you excited for it for this next chapter?

Most definitely.

You know, like you said, I'm doing a little bit of the whole retirement thing

again now, and then keeping myself fit and obviously just waiting on this.

You're alive, Tony.

No, you're not.

He's not doing the retirement thing at all.

You're working for a charity or you, you're doing charity.

You, you, you know, you, you don't have the ability to,

to sit still and do nothing.

And it, it always fundamentally is in service of someone or something else.

That is, be it in the military, in service of the country, the prison service fire

service, you know, keep keeping us safe.

But able do charity work.

And I think it touches on your, your CrossFit journey as well.

Like tell us a little bit more about that, because I think it's

super cool what you're doing here.

So, in 2023 in the May I was very gratefully received into

CrossFit Leland, my local gym.

And that was just to sort of keep my head up and, and get me

firing on all cylinders again.

And, you know, gimme a sense of worth having, taking that stumble

sort of mentally and making those progressions that way.

I got to get to know a charity called The 180 Project out of another CrossFit box

CrossFit Delta Fox in Darwin in Lancaster.

And the 180 Project have three programs.

They have the Adult Substance Abuses program.

They have the Young Youthful offenders program, and they have

the Adult Prisoners Program.

And it will be the adult prisoners program that I work with predominantly

outta Lancaster Farms Prison.

And that experience as a prison officer is one of the things that

I took into that interview which I think will, will set me up greatly.

But initially when I start in January, it'll be working with

all three programs at CrossFit, Delta, Fox, and yeah, just that

ability to convey sort of the, the benefits of fitness to mental health

and, you know, knowing sort of what they have to do from their registered houses.

So, you know, the, the prison probation program look after the registered

house for those that are released from prison and then they come and do

CrossFit as part of their mental health physical training program, as well as

everything else that they have to do.

So whether that be care in the community or time in the community or

whatever else, their program starts.

Then they do that alongside doing the fitness and nutrition.

So really looking forward to meeting all three groups in the

new year, you know, getting into Lancaster Farms and, and doing that.

But I just think, as you've said, and you touched on, like, I don't think

I'm cut out for anything else, like.

Ultimately my life is, is about service.

I'm, I'm not gonna do anything else.

I was never made for a desk.

I was never, you know, gonna be, you know, that mental aptitude

to, you know, be running companies and all that sort of stuff.

It's just, here's a set of skills.

How can I best apply 'em?

And a continued life of service for me, whatever that looks like.

Maybe a tracksuit for the 180 project, a firefighter's outfit, hopefully.

But ultimately, you know, as I said, 26 years as, as

service to Queen and then King.

That's ultimately where I see myself, sort of.

That's inspiring.

Tony, let's chat a little bit about Combat Fuel as well.

This is our podcast.

You have to.

And hopefully we finish with a nice, some nice happy notes.

What, why Combat Fuel, you know, very selfish of, of me to ask, but why RS?

And there's other military supplement brands out there, there's

other guys that, that do stuff.

But why, why ars?

What resonates with, with you to want to be a part of our family, of which

you have for, for eight years now?

I think it's from that first time that I reached out and that,

you know.

There are certain people that you, you work with over the years that

you know, you can call friends and you know, that's what it feels like.

That friendship, you just,

that element of loneliness.

You, you reach into different things and you sort of get those like warm feelings.

You get a reciprocation and then that support comes to whether, you know,

you are supporting a company, hopefully being able to spread the message and

then, you know, you come and, and support one of the events that I did

and then ultimately other events.

And it's just, as you said, people use my, my discount code.

And as I've said to you, you know, as the brand grows and it continues to grow

and all the big companies are watching on like, what would I be able to offer?

I can't offer like the likes of, you know, the biggest names within the, the, the

family of com team combat fuel and, you know, they're pulling their reach and,

and all that sort of stuff is something that I will never have the numbers on.

But to still be part of it and what, what could I bring but to be included?

Yeah, it's like I say, I will always be, be very grateful.

I do is create posts, take silly photos, little bits of video, try

and spread the word, but remain loyal without, you know, loyalty.

It's one of those things you just, it's what you have to have ingrained in you.

That comes with any form of progression.

So consistency, just, it's how people need to operate without that loyalty and

it's reciprocation, you know, you just

establish friendship from it.

I, that's what I believe it is.

Like, friend, you know, I could probably count, especially when I left the

Army, just how many immediate friends I had, how many people sort of talked

to me from those days, send messages actually, you know, care what's going on.

You know, just send proper, heartfelt, you know, inquiries as to what's going on.

And, you know, I won't entertain any of these others.

It's just I watch the creation.

I know who was first into markets in regards to, you know, social media.

I know what is a good product.

I know what's working.

I know what the underlying statements are.

And I see so many people now trying to jump in and cut corners and

blacken the name.

It's just, it's, it's infuriating.

Frustrating.

But they'll never match this, this has been born outta true love outta

something that, you know happened that they allowed you to then

think, right, I'm gonna do this.

And then you planned it and executed it.

And it just resonates with all the key things that, that fit into my

understanding of, you know, my main drives were, you know, reliability,

durability, sustainability, where you've been able to sustain the building.

You've endured, obviously the time and folk are relying on

you to produce those next steps.

And you've done it.

You've, you've delivered, you're at the forefront.

And haters are always gonna hurt, as the youngsters say, but the

big wigs are watching, I've said it for, for months, for years.

They're watching, and I've seen the products come to market, and then

these big ones have seen it and they've stolen your idea because they

compare for people to sit on top of it,

you know,

prime example is the iron brew flavor with the s Stockman

Brothers and my protein rubbish.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's like tap water.

But because they've got vast amounts of money behind it, if folk just did

the, you know, the product comparison, it's formulated and they just,

it doesn't compare and it's safe.

It's, I don't get the stamps anymore.

I don't get the compulsory drugs test and bring on the firefighters

compulsory drug testing.

I don't know how it works, but, you know, I live on this stuff.

My cupboards are full of this stuff.

I'll champion this stuff until, you know, I'm dust and then someone can

take it out me cupboards and I'll donate it to someone in the gym.

But it will, it will be like that until I go or until you sell.

You know, and I hope it does come that way.

I hope somebody like Gym Shark buy you or, or something.

Something big will happen for you and I just, I'll be on to watch it.

Awesome.

Thank you Tony.

And I mean, just to say combat you isn't for sale either.

I love what I do.

Definitely not for sale.

I love what I do.

You know, I remember chatting to you like a couple years back when you,

you know, you'd been a bit quiet and it was picked up the phone.

She was like, table, what's going on?

It's, you know, sent you a little gift package but for nothing

other than a, like, just know that other people out there care

about you and, and, and crack on.

I think you, you'd come back off a, a night shift in a prison service.

You hadn't got it for a couple of days 'cause you were.

You were, you were working and he came back and you were just like, why?

What do I have to offer you?

But, you know, loyalty's, it's a rare thing these days.

You know, other bigger brands can offer a lot more than what we can.

And, and for all of yourself and the other athletes that, that stick about

that could perhaps sell their souls to, to some of the big companies, to, to have

worse products, but line their pockets, you know, you choose to stand by me and

the Brandon, you know, from its inception of where we were working out of paring

that up in spare rooms in my house, in front, my kitchen, to then having a, a gym

that, you know, you visited many a times to then we were, well this is the fifth

iteration now where we've been and you know, you were I think you were the the

second person we took on after Big Reggie.

Well, can't call him big reg.

Can we short Reggie?

Short Reggie, you know, it's, yeah.

Thank you for your loyalty and I think it should absolutely be

you Don't just throw it away.

'cause someone might not be able to offer you something as much, you

know, it swings and roundabouts.

It's a relationship as much as it is a friendship.

You know, sometimes I might wanna lean on you and, and the other

athletes and I hope that you feel like sometimes you can lean on me and and

if it's just picking up the phone to.

You know, I've got, my house is always open.

You're always welcome to come around there, come and spin it once and terrorize

partners while we, while they cook for us.

I don't cook.

But fire services next to Tony.

Is there anything else left you to achieve the, like, I'm, I'm gonna get this

nailed once, once I've got myself sorted and established in the fire service, I

will continue what I started in sort of 2020 with regards to the, the charity.

Things like this back injury has robbed me of sort of this year's

main charity event and, you know,

yeah, that's what's missing now.

Just that side of it.

I just, I started in the military, I waited and then continued outside of that.

Obviously when I did the CrossFits longest roll, you know, for the defibrillators

and all that sort of stuff, and just being robbed with this back injury

nearly a year, you know, I'm being made worse by the, the prison service.

It's just some of that is still itch in a way.

It started with little numbers.

It got into some bigger numbers and yeah, I'll get my teeth

back into that side of it.

And then I think that will be the full circle of everything coming.

Good.

And then take on any other hurdles that get in the way

with the same sort of attitude.

Just smash through 'em instead of trying to get over him.

And then I'll have everything in, as I say, full circle.

Awesome.

If you were to go back to Young Tony, what's the piece of advice you'd give

your, your younger self, knowing what you know now and what you've endured?

Yeah.

I don't think I would, I would tell him to do much else.

I really did enjoy, you know, that whole experience as I will always pass that on

to, you know, the younger individuals that still entertain me spinning debts about

the military and, you know, whether they should join or whether they shouldn't.

And yeah, I enjoyed absolutely everything that I was doing.

'cause I took all those opportunities when they presented themselves.

And that's just the, the message, take them.

Because if you don't take the opportunities, you'll, you'll never know.

I surrendered enough time as a, as a young dad for that progression of my career.

Hindsight's a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't have the things I have

now if I didn't, didn't do that.

It's just, you get to, to achieve them in another way.

Now that I've got Adeline present with my current partner, Laura, so

I can, I can find those different balances in this future, future work

that I'm hoping to achieve, you know, in that different work life balance.

And we'll see how that one plays out.

But I wouldn't tell him to change.

Just you crack on, keep smiling with your big, goofy teeth and Yeah.

You're in for some, some surprises along the way.

Yeah.

So keep doing what you're doing.

That's brilliant.

Tony.

Thank you so much for coming on.

No worries.

Thank you for your service to country, to king and queen and and luck.

I left and shake you.

Oh, thanks for having me.