Jessica Tarlov and Concilio
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Nick: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Concilio Better Places podcast, where I'm absolutely delighted to announce we are going transatlantic today. And joining us is Jessica Tar of one of, if not the leading, democratic commentators in the United States. Jessica, thank you for joining us.

Jessica Tarlov: It's a bold introduction. Um, uh, leading democratic commentators. yeah. Cool. Great leaning in. it's great to be here and it's nice to see you after so many years.

Nick: a few years, hasn't it? It has been a few years, and,

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah.

Nick: me today is my colleague Sehj she's gonna be, kind of leading on, on, on the questions today. And, um, really this, this came about 'cause Jessica, you and I used, used to work together a long, long time ago London, and. I always like to say when America Sneeze, sneezes Britain catches a cold.

Nick: You know, we do tend to follow, American politics far more than anything in Europe, even though it's just next door. But that's just the way it is. And the rise of, Mamdani, um, he's so famous now. You just need one [00:01:00] word, read it. Everyone knows who he is, has really

Jessica Tarlov: The Madonna of politics.

Nick: Yeah, it's captured people's attention massively over here in UK and especially London, where we are.

Nick: Just wondering to explore with you if there could be any parallels which, kind of left in politics could learn from what Mamdani done in New York. I think said you're gonna ask the first set of questions.

Sehj: Yeah. I mean, it would be great to know from your. Perspective, why you actually think Mamdani won, because we see it very differently here to, how you guys experience it.

Sehj: And I think it's just interesting to know whether it's a genuine shift on the left, rising in socialism or it's just the products of very, sort of US specific conditions, whether that be the Eric Adams cronies and scandals, sort of anti-Trump sentiment.

Jessica Tarlov: So I think it's a mix of things. And I, so I'm a New Yorker, Mamdani is my mayor now. I did not vote for Momani, and I'm kind of part of [00:02:00] a, a pretty sizable chunk of moderate Democrats in New York, especially Jewish New Yorkers, who didn't take to him, um, the way that others did. And I, I don't wanna make it out like all the Jews voted against him.

Jessica Tarlov: 'cause that is not the case. He got about 30% of the vote, but it's usually 60 to 65%. And there were very real concerns about past rhetoric. And perspective on Israel and what's going on, over there, calling it a genocide. Things that were just making Jews a little suspicious of what a Mamdani administration would look like.

Jessica Tarlov: So I was a disappointed voter, which I would say was the majority sentiment of people who went to the polls. we really felt that the. Establishment, I'm, this is only audio, uh, but I'm using quotes that the. The core [00:03:00] of the party did not field a decent candidate, and it is very possible that Mamdani still could have risen to the top.

Jessica Tarlov: It was an unbelievable campaign that even though I didn't vote for him, I was actually still excited to see him win because there was so much energy, there was so much human connection. It felt like a return to Obama vibes when hope and change meant something and people understood what a politician stood for and felt like that they were actually going to fight tooth and nail for them, and we desperately need that.

Jessica Tarlov: And so I'm happy in that sense. but a lot of us felt like the Normie Dems just didn't bother to recruit someone decent or the folks that could have done it. Like Richie Torres, I don't know if you guys know him, but he is a congressman, for the South Bronx who has. The, one of the most diverse, if not the most diverse, district in the country.

Jessica Tarlov: So he [00:04:00] has the poorest Americans, he has the highest number of folks on Medicaid, but he also is. The Congressman for Riverdale, which has this huge modern orthodox population. So he, he really is a mixed bag there and is very pro-Israel, which folks were looking for, Dan Goldman, who is my congressman, who is one of the, lead impeachment managers in Donald Trump's first impeachment.

Jessica Tarlov: People also were looking to him to see if he would run Jessica Tisch, who is the police commissioner, was someone that the kind of technocratic. Left wanted like that. She could be another Bloomberg type candidate. I wouldn't be surprised if she ran down the line but didn't feel ready to do it now. So there were all these names percolating where people thought, okay, well maybe if so-and-so gets in.

Jessica Tarlov: And then we ended up with Andrew Cuomo, which was an abject disaster. And so I don't want to, I always say this, and then people who love Mamdani. Get mad at me. I don't wanna minimize what Momani [00:05:00] accomplished, but there were a confluence of factors that came together in this election that is not the usual situation.

Jessica Tarlov: So someone polling at 1% going on to win the election doesn't typically happen unless everybody else who's running is terrible. And that's the conditions that we had.

Nick: You mentioned the human connection there and the kind of

Nick: um, to hope and change, which I think is what came across to us. Just looking from afar, not looking at kind of the micro granular detail on the ground and, you know, it's How much of a success do you think was a. Being able to utilize modern technology, 'cause people focus on that.

Nick: I used to TikTok mayor. Okay. But you've gotta say something as well, rather than just being on a platform. So message and the platform in this candidate just seem to come together. And honestly, the way people speak about him over here, it has that Obama volume that's.

Sehj: When you said that has that bond vibe, I was thinking the exact same.

Sehj: Like my [00:06:00] first exposure would be on, was on social media of Mamdani and you know, this, the sort of short skits he does the quite fun, like very, yeah. Targeted,

Jessica Tarlov: it vertical? Wait, no. It's a vertical that he doesn't, everyone else does. So horizontal. Yeah. Sorry.

Sehj: very, targeted towards sort of the, the Gen Z voter. I think that's the sort of experience we have of him over here. Yeah.

Nick: Definitely.

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah, I, so the digital strategist behind this campaign, did an incredible job. They also had. The genuine article, right as the candidate, someone who naturally feels this, he's 34 years old, so a young millennial, old Gen Z, depending on um, how you do it, uh, but it's more than just the medium. He is transcendent and he is charming and hyperfocused on.

Jessica Tarlov: What New Yorkers, [00:07:00] but really Americans and I think, Londoners as well wanna hear, which is, I care about you and I'm not interested in playing any games. You know, people tried to pull him into culture war issues and besides Israel, which I don't even know if that counts as a culture war issue, he just wasn't having it.

Jessica Tarlov: Like it, it didn't come across. His screen. Essentially, if someone would ask him a question that was clearly a rabbit hole, he would get back to affordability and affordability, which is, you know, the new way of talking about how much money is in your pocket. Um, and you know, now. It's being used in elections all over the country, even for more conservative, democratic candidates like Abigail Stanberger, who's the new governor of Virginia.

Jessica Tarlov: Mikey, she, the new governor of New Jersey. They all ran affordability campaigns, but Mamdani was really, the one that, hi, it the best. And [00:08:00] I, I think that his rhetoric was this amazing blend of aggressive but not hostile towards. Uber, Uber rich because there's something going on here and I think it's true in London as well.

Jessica Tarlov: 'cause I, I lived in London for my twenties and my girlfriend, my best girlfriends are still there. And they're in this same boat where they are by any normal, standard rich, right? Like their household is making three, 400, 500,000 pounds plus cumulative. But they have two kids. And London is soaring expensive the same way that it is here in New York City.

Jessica Tarlov: And so there's this new group of people who are sitting around the dinner table every night and they're having fancy takeout, right? Like these aren't people living paycheck to paycheck and eating baked beans, but they are feeling like they won't. [00:09:00] Be able to get ahead, that they won't be able to stay in the city, that they love a lot of them who grew up there, that they won't be able to pass money down to their kids.

Jessica Tarlov: And that generational wealth is the only way that people now can live a certain quality of life. And Mamdani captured all of that. He has great lines about how he doesn't think, you know, billionaires should be able to exist. And I think for. A lot of us were like, okay, I get it. It's a little Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, everyone says stuff like that.

Jessica Tarlov: But he spoke to this kind of sandwiched rich person, who, if you look at a, a global chart is obviously doing exceptionally well, but has real financial struggles to be able to stay in the city in which they are employed and how wrong that is. And, I wanted to say something else about the social media point that you made.

Jessica Tarlov: So obviously he was going viral. Everything that he did, you know, starting with that halal cart when he said his policy would be [00:10:00] that a halal meal, you know, wouldn't be over $8. but he also had so many important in-person events and one really stuck out to me. He ran this enormous. Scavenger hunt that started at Union Square, which is a big hub here in New York City and had thousands of people turn out to go on this hunt together.

Jessica Tarlov: And the Times wrote a, a big piece about the vibes that the Mamdani campaign was cultivating. And something that was so important was in-person community. We talk a lot about these communities that are built online and how fantastic. It is that we're all connected to people over all over the world. He knows that everyone from 18 year olds up to senior citizens are facing a loneliness epidemic.

Jessica Tarlov: And he wanted to create a campaign where you felt like you were physically a part of something, not just that you were, you know, smashing that retweet button

Nick: Yep.

Jessica Tarlov: posting on TikTok. And I think that that was so [00:11:00] central to why he was able. To win and to captivate so many people who might not have been a supporter of his politics, but thought this is really the best of us, and what you want politics to be.

Nick: It, it's interesting you mentioned, kind of that sandwich group on quite a high salary, but what we're also here in London where, and you know, it's clearly not a direct read across to say, you know, Zach Polansky is the Man Army and the Green Party is so, it is not a direct read across. However, what we are seeing is especially. Moving to look at something other than the established left, I think would be how I would, describe it. And there's the, there's the, acronym avocado aggrieved, victims of Crushing Debt Obligations. And we always think over here, maybe it's a generational thing for me being. A bit older and I, I'm old enough to remember when we had grants, not loans at university.

Nick: That was quite a long time ago. so we don't [00:12:00] think in the UK but our student debt position is bad as America 'cause we always hear horror stories, which might be quite accurate of hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of debt for, but UK students are leaving uni with 50. 50,000 pound Yeah. Debt, which is not uncommon is it said for people you know and your friend.

Sehj: Yeah, yeah, exactly. With like a 6% interest rate pre 2023, which I think now it's about 3.2%. Yeah. But I think it's. Interesting what you said about sort of American debt because I think to us here, it's sort of handed to us in a sil silver plate.

Sehj: It's very accessible that student loans are. so now I was just, the other day I was reading a story of someone that started paying their, student loan in 2021 and they were on 57,000 pounds and now the debt's risen 77,000 pounds. And I think it's sort of similar to what you said. Regarding that sort of sandwiched, wealthy, group of people.

Sehj: But I think this with sort of young graduates, especially somewhere like London, it's just the cost of living's just like through the [00:13:00] roof. I think that tied in with sort of social issues, Really drive sort of like the campaign of like Zach Polansky, leader of the Green Party here. I think it's just an overall thing of crossing traditional party loyalty and it's just overarching like, shared, unfairness ideology, whether that, be social issues as well as, cost of living and wealth issues.

Sehj: And I think Mamdani and Zach Lansky both do that very well in terms of, like you said, just. Honing in on the affordability. Affordability, and circling back to that when there's all this wider noise on like culture wars and things like that.

Jessica Tarlov: I think that's absolutely right and I didn't mean to talk about Mamdani win is only people who by national or global standards are wealthy. I was just trying to explain how he built such a broad coalition of voters because a lot of people who. Don't want their taxes [00:14:00] raised, let you know who fit into his brackets, where that would go up.

Jessica Tarlov: Still supported him. but you're totally right and I think for a recent grad, who is emerging and their debt is just accumulating, and I remember what it was like 'cause I graduated from university in. England,

Jessica Tarlov: So the affordability thing obviously cuts through to that. but he also had this other line of argumentation, which I imagine the greens are using as well, which is these cities don't belong.

Jessica Tarlov: To you talking about like the uber rich, like these cities are rooted in working class people and they're supposed to be for us. And that doesn't mean you can't be here, but it also doesn't mean that we can't be here. And you know, we can talk about the hypocrisy of the, you know, he grew up very wealthy and he lives [00:15:00] in up.

Jessica Tarlov: I think his apartment's like a couple million dollar apartment in Chelsea and he is moving to Gracie Mansion. But I, you know, he really understood that and he did this one thing and, stop me if all of these like examples of what he did are, are not that interesting. But there was a day towards the end of the election, and it looked like he was gonna win pretty handedly.

Jessica Tarlov: Um, 'cause the. Republican candidate and Cuomo had not consolidated properly. I, I do think Cuomo would have won if Curtis Lewa, who ran as the Republican, had dropped out in an appropriate amount of time. But Mamdani got up and showed up in, at LaGuardia one of our airports at like four o'clock in the morning to talk to the cab drivers who are there, and he did a video about it and said, you know, it is.

Jessica Tarlov: These people that are silently making our city work and they never get the spotlight right, [00:16:00] like they're, no one notices them. They, they come in and out, they commute hours to be able to get here. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get their medallion and you guys have the same thing, with the black cabs versus the Uber economy.

Jessica Tarlov: And I thought it was such an important statement on where his priorities were. It was with the working people and a lot of these grads while, you know, they just graduated from college, so higher aspiration, I'm sure than. Being a taxi driver, a lot of them come from families like that, right? First generation, second generation, to go to college.

Jessica Tarlov: that they have debt for a reason. They didn't have families that could pay for them just to zoom through university. And these left leaning parties are noticing that the. For you guys that Labor and Conservative and the Lib Dems [00:17:00] to some degree, are becoming basically two sides to the same coin. I would say like in the US Republicans and Democrats, it's, they're, that coin is huge and it's, it's a very different thing because of how our social issues work here.

Jessica Tarlov: But you could make the argument, and Mamdani did very effectively that everyone in mainstream politics. It is just owned by corporations, right? Like that they're all rich people who have forgotten what it looks like. You know, to be a regular Joe that has crushing student debt and is on their first or second job, who's scared about having a child that they can't afford it?

Jessica Tarlov: You know, a lot is made. Fun of the left, you know, that they don't wanna have kids because of climate change and things like that. People just straight up don't think that they can afford to have children. And we have a fertility crisis, or I shouldn't say a fertility crisis. We have a, what's the word for it?

Jessica Tarlov: We have a, a birth cri, we have a population crisis [00:18:00] all over the world because of this.

Nick: can't afford it.

Jessica Tarlov: So, yeah.

Nick: Um, yeah, no, you were speaking out, it just strikes me that really. Reform in the UK and one could argue the more

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah.

Nick: The Republican party is taking the same approach of portraying the existing parties as a blob. That's what, that's the words.

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah.

Nick: the blob and they're on the right and on the left.

Nick: Mamdani seems to have tapped into that on an affordability And these people don't understand you in a sense. It's quite interesting, I

Sehj: to think with the amount of, Tori's going through reform marriage. That's true. I want them to make that argument. That's true. That's true. Um, yeah. I think one. Final question we really wanted to ask you, which I think I probably know. The sort of answer you're going to give now, is if you were advising a left-wing candidate in the UK trying to break through today, what would your three key pieces of advice be?

Jessica Tarlov: Be very visible. You know, be everywhere, but in person and on social.

Nick: Yeah.

Jessica Tarlov: listen to people. [00:19:00] Like, you know, on camera and off camera. A lot of people do that as a stunt. I mean, here in the US these town halls matter a lot. I'm not sure how much they matter in. Your politics. you know, I haven't worked on a UK campaign in a long time.

Jessica Tarlov: and I don't think it was as much of a thing, but the constituent work really, really makes a difference. and then find a way to run against the system, from within the system. So I, it's. Things are not going to change as much as people want them to. And I get a lot of flack for this. I mean, I have a podcast called Raging Moderates and everything is like, oh, Jessica Tarla, you know, she doesn't dream big, she doesn't believe in what's possible, et cetera.

Jessica Tarlov: And you know, I'm more conservative on the more conservative side of my party. But Mamdani was able to. Get the support of the mainstream and the [00:20:00] left by really effectively running against the system. Within the system. That's what Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez does as well. Bernie Sanders, who's an independent senator, right?

Jessica Tarlov: Caucuses with Democrats, right? Like he's a reliable democratic vote, but there's something about him that's delineated as different, and people right now are gravitating towards different, that's how we ended up with Trump. Like, he just was like, I am going to crush the system and I'm gonna quote unquote, drain the swamp.

Jessica Tarlov: Right now he is fully the swamp. but no one is voting for the status quo. I, I don't know, a, a single person that's interested in it, and it's been really fascinating to watch a lot of mainstream politicians rebrand themselves, you know, as a maverick, as someone who's really different. And so I would.

Jessica Tarlov: Those would be my three pieces of advice. and stay away from anything that's not a kitchen table issue. I guess the fourth piece of advice, people,

Nick: Yeah.

Jessica Tarlov: don't [00:21:00] care. Like it was really interesting. There was, in one of the exit polls after the 2024 election. looking at the amount of people who had a difference of opinion with Kamala Harris on core culture, war issues, everything from abortion to trans athletes, and she still won a plurality of them.

Jessica Tarlov: Like people can accept that if you are giving them what they want, and most of what they want is an economic agenda. That is fair. That they feel like they can not only get ahead, but that other people in their community will be lifted up. I think people are much more generous than we give them credit for and concerned with their community.

Jessica Tarlov: We're seeing that right now with what's going on with immigration enforcement and how people are banding together. And Mamdani has even been making the argument that what's going on with immigration enforcement is an economic issue 'cause he is laser focused on affordability.

Nick: Brilliant. I think that's certainly [00:22:00] something we're gonna see more and more of over the coming years in, in the UK and London. Yeah. And probably the main issue in the London election. So Jessica, just wanna say thank you very much for Yeah, thank you. Giving us your time today.

Jessica Tarlov: Oh

Nick: Absolutely

Jessica Tarlov: yeah.

Nick: The rise of Mamdani and the parallels with potentially Zach Polanski and the Greens here is certainly what people are talking about.

Nick: So great to get your insights. Thank you. Thank

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah. No, it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.