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Transcript for Male experiences of domestic abuse

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INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

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INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection

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INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

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INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

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INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

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INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

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EMILY HARRISON: Hi, welcome to the NSPCC Learning

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EMILY HARRISON: podcast. My name's Emily, I'm a Domestic

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EMILY HARRISON: Abuse Practice Advisor working mainly on

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EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline with the NSPCC.

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EMILY HARRISON: Today we're here to talk about a few topics

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EMILY HARRISON: that show up on the Helpline, Childline and

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EMILY HARRISON: the wider organisation, and indeed in

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EMILY HARRISON: society as well.

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EMILY HARRISON: Discussions today are focusing on male

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EMILY HARRISON: experiences of domestic abuse and wider

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EMILY HARRISON: harms, harmful masculinity, and also

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EMILY HARRISON: gives thought to how men can be allies for

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EMILY HARRISON: women and children when it comes to looking

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EMILY HARRISON: at alternative behaviours and the work that

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EMILY HARRISON: we're involved with.

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EMILY HARRISON: I'm joined today by Adrian.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, my name is Adrian.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm a Practice Manager with the NSPCC

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Helpline. I am a counsellor by

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: profession and I continue to

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: deliver counselling to young people

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: outside the organisation one day a week.

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EMILY HARRISON: Stephen.

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STEPHEN PILLING: Hi, my name is Stephen and I'm a

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STEPHEN PILLING: practitioner on the Helpline.

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STEPHEN PILLING: I've done this role for around five years.

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STEPHEN PILLING: I have a social work background,

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STEPHEN PILLING: qualifying in 2009, and much of

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STEPHEN PILLING: my work and career has been working in

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STEPHEN PILLING: the voluntary sector, supporting children

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STEPHEN PILLING: and their families.

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EMILY HARRISON: And Cormac.

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CORMAC NOLAN: My name is Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the

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CORMAC NOLAN: Service Heads in Childline.

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CORMAC NOLAN: That means that I have responsibilities for

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CORMAC NOLAN: some of our Childline bases and the live

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CORMAC NOLAN: service that we offer. But in addition to

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CORMAC NOLAN: that, I'm also responsible for the Childline

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CORMAC NOLAN: website and everything that goes on there.

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EMILY HARRISON: Welcome, welcome and thank you for taking

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EMILY HARRISON: part. I do appreciate you giving up your

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EMILY HARRISON: time to be able to get this information out

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EMILY HARRISON: there and to have these discussions.

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EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, if I can just start with you.

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EMILY HARRISON: You've got a lot of experience working with

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EMILY HARRISON: men in a counselling setting.

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EMILY HARRISON: Can you tell us just a little bit about

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EMILY HARRISON: what that looked like to you?

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EMILY HARRISON: So for example, was there a specific

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EMILY HARRISON: personality type that came through and

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EMILY HARRISON: what did their presentation look like?

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Well, before I was counselling with

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young people as I am now, I did work for

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: an organisation working with male

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: survivors of domestic abuse.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The common presentation you would see

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: would be men who were afraid to talk

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about their experiences, men that felt

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they just would not be believed,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and men who...

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, they had gone through various

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: legal process, things like that, where

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the courts just hadn't believed them.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Unfortunately, you know, it has

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: improved, but look, whenever I first

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: started out in this work — in maybe 2010,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: 2011 — it was very challenging for men.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: It still is very challenging for men to come

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, but it was extremely

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging back then.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The flip side of that was I also worked

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with male perpetrators of domestic

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: abuse. Their presentations were very

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging. You would have lots of

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: people who would come because it was

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: court ordered. For example, if they

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: wanted to see their children, they had to

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: receive anger management or they had to

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: go to counselling in relation to what

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: they had done. And the typical

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: presentation really was them trying to

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: groom me, to become their best mate.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They thought that I would somehow,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: because I was a man, take to their story

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and probably, I don't know,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: collude with them and say

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "oh yeah, yeah, I understand what it is,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that's terrible, that's terrible, that's

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: terrible." You know, at the start you

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have to go along with it a little bit to get

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: them to kind of trust you.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And then it's about working and

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: stripping away and challenging their

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviours, sometimes in a way that they

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: find very, very challenging.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I remember having one client who was

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raising his voice going, "I'm not angry,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm not angry, I'm not angry." And I

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raised my voice back and said, "you're

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: not angry, you're not angry, you're not angry." Then

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: he sat back in his chair and I said

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to him, "I wonder how your child

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: feels whenever they see you present like

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that." What I was trying to do was

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reflect back; you know, it's bad enough

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for an adult to be faced with that

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviour, but for a child to be faced

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with that behaviour.

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So, yeah, I got to see both sides of it,

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: both sides: of the male perpetrator and

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the male survivor.

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EMILY HARRISON: It must have been quite a time to work as

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EMILY HARRISON: well, because we say that sometimes, you

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EMILY HARRISON: know, that they're getting better and that

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EMILY HARRISON: we've got more understanding and that we're

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EMILY HARRISON: getting better equipped to deal with

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EMILY HARRISON: things. But everything changes just so

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EMILY HARRISON: quickly, doesn't it?

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EMILY HARRISON: These things, they do go around in circles

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EMILY HARRISON: and cycles. But we also get added

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EMILY HARRISON: layers of difficulty in terms of barriers,

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EMILY HARRISON: in terms of what goes on in society as

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EMILY HARRISON: well, don't we? Stephen, have you

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EMILY HARRISON: had any contacts on the Helpline where

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EMILY HARRISON: you've been able to identify something

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EMILY HARRISON: similar?

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STEPHEN PILLING: Yes, certainly on the Helpline

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STEPHEN PILLING: we get calls from perpetrators of

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STEPHEN PILLING: abuse and it's trying to recognise

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STEPHEN PILLING: that they are perpetrators of the abuse,

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STEPHEN PILLING: which can be very, very difficult at

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STEPHEN PILLING: times. People can be very convincing

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STEPHEN PILLING: in what they say.

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STEPHEN PILLING: We do get perpetrators who call, but we

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STEPHEN PILLING: also get men who are experiencing abuse as

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STEPHEN PILLING: well and the majority of them are fathers.

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STEPHEN PILLING: And because parenthood is so complex

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STEPHEN PILLING: that, you know, it's often difficult for

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STEPHEN PILLING: men — what I'm finding is that it's

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STEPHEN PILLING: difficult for men to define their role as

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STEPHEN PILLING: a parent. We have to listen and obviously

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STEPHEN PILLING: validate their concerns, but at the same

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STEPHEN PILLING: time we also maybe need to signpost them

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STEPHEN PILLING: to specialised services who

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STEPHEN PILLING: could explore and help them within

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STEPHEN PILLING: their definition of concluding if they've

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STEPHEN PILLING: been experiencing domestic abuse.

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STEPHEN PILLING: Because I think if you're defining the

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STEPHEN PILLING: problem initially, it's easier for any

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STEPHEN PILLING: individual to work towards solutions.

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STEPHEN PILLING: We don't necessarily know the long-term

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STEPHEN PILLING: outcomes. So we get a snapshot and we're

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STEPHEN PILLING: trying to give certain advice in

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STEPHEN PILLING: a very time-limited way.

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EMILY HARRISON: I think those outcomes nationally,

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EMILY HARRISON: not just on the Helpline, but nationally

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EMILY HARRISON: with other organisations and the

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EMILY HARRISON: statutory framework as well, do point to

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EMILY HARRISON: that early intervention, early

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EMILY HARRISON: identification of those pitfalls,

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EMILY HARRISON: problems, dilemmas, barriers.

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EMILY HARRISON: The earlier that we can catch those, the

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EMILY HARRISON: better the outcome for the child.

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EMILY HARRISON: What the Helpline does in terms of giving

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EMILY HARRISON: people that opportunity to talk through

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EMILY HARRISON: the situation, the scenario, what they're

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EMILY HARRISON: experiencing, and their child protection

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EMILY HARRISON: concerns and their safeguarding concerns,

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EMILY HARRISON: or identification of those, is

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EMILY HARRISON: really valuable because we can give that

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EMILY HARRISON: advice over the phone and email when it's

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EMILY HARRISON: not appropriate to talk on the phone as

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EMILY HARRISON: well. Cormac, your experiences come

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EMILY HARRISON: from a slightly different angle — and

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EMILY HARRISON: that's because you're predominantly with

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EMILY HARRISON: Childline — which of course is the child

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EMILY HARRISON: perspective.

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EMILY HARRISON: So are there any points that

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EMILY HARRISON: you'd like to raise on the subject?

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CORMAC NOLAN: I think just following on from what Stephen

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CORMAC NOLAN: said, there are definitely parallels in

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CORMAC NOLAN: Childline alongside what Stephen has

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CORMAC NOLAN: been saying. What we find in Childline

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CORMAC NOLAN: is a lot of young people, young males will

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CORMAC NOLAN: come to us knowing that something's

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CORMAC NOLAN: not quite right, something doesn't feel right

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CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of their experience or indeed on

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CORMAC NOLAN: their own behaviour, but they can't quite pin

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CORMAC NOLAN: it down. They certainly often don't have a

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CORMAC NOLAN: name for it, but something doesn't feel right

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CORMAC NOLAN: and it's impacting on the people around them

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CORMAC NOLAN: or on themselves.

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CORMAC NOLAN: There maybe — you know, we work with children

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CORMAC NOLAN: and young people up to the age of 19 — so

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CORMAC NOLAN: there can be babies and children involved in

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CORMAC NOLAN: these domestic situations.

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CORMAC NOLAN: Children and young people, of course, can be

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CORMAC NOLAN: witnesses to domestic abuse, and of course

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CORMAC NOLAN: that makes — in the eyes of the law — that

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CORMAC NOLAN: makes them victims of that abuse as well.

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CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a huge amount to unpick for

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CORMAC NOLAN: young males, particularly, and we know

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CORMAC NOLAN: historically it's much more difficult for

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CORMAC NOLAN: young males to come forward, acknowledge that

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CORMAC NOLAN: there's a problem and reach out and seek

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CORMAC NOLAN: help. That's our experience over several

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CORMAC NOLAN: years. I feel as though that to some degree

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CORMAC NOLAN: that's changing.

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CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the key things that we try to do

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CORMAC NOLAN: with children and young people when they come

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CORMAC NOLAN: through is really work at their pace; help

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CORMAC NOLAN: them to feel comfortable talking to someone

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CORMAC NOLAN: about what can be a really challenging issue.

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CORMAC NOLAN: And we're always very mindful of what it has

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CORMAC NOLAN: taken for a young person, a young male, to

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CORMAC NOLAN: come through and talk to us in the first

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CORMAC NOLAN: instance. There's been a lot of thought, a

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CORMAC NOLAN: lot of preparation, probably a lot of soul

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CORMAC NOLAN: searching, because it can be either an

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CORMAC NOLAN: admission that they've done something wrong,

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CORMAC NOLAN: or they feel that they've done something wrong,

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CORMAC NOLAN: or that something's wrong in their life and

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CORMAC NOLAN: around them.

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EMILY HARRISON: We've just put this into the context of

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EMILY HARRISON: domestic abuse.

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EMILY HARRISON: Let's try and broaden that

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EMILY HARRISON: thinking for a second and think about abuse

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EMILY HARRISON: in more general terms as well.

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EMILY HARRISON: More recently we've heard some different

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EMILY HARRISON: words being used.

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EMILY HARRISON: Some of those words might be 'manosphere',

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EMILY HARRISON: 'toxic masculinity', 'patriarchy',

00:09:29,770 → 00:09:32,469

EMILY HARRISON: 'misogyny'. These words are coming through

00:09:32,470 → 00:09:33,793

EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline, they're coming through Childline,

00:09:34,470 → 00:09:36,709

EMILY HARRISON: and we need to explore what those words

00:09:36,710 → 00:09:39,469

EMILY HARRISON: mean a little bit, I think, because the

00:09:39,470 → 00:09:41,369

EMILY HARRISON: word toxic isn't really exploring the

00:09:41,370 → 00:09:44,449

EMILY HARRISON: concern, it's not explaining what

00:09:44,450 → 00:09:46,129

EMILY HARRISON: is actually going on.

00:09:46,130 → 00:09:49,189

EMILY HARRISON: We're tending to try and, rather than

00:09:49,190 → 00:09:51,209

EMILY HARRISON: use a label, use that experience.

00:09:51,210 → 00:09:53,889

EMILY HARRISON: So it might be 'unhealthy masculinity'.

00:09:53,890 → 00:09:56,489

EMILY HARRISON: It might be 'extreme masculinity'.

00:09:56,490 → 00:09:58,209

EMILY HARRISON: And of course, when we talk about that

00:09:58,210 → 00:10:00,189

EMILY HARRISON: masculinity, we're not actually limiting

00:10:00,190 → 00:10:02,110

EMILY HARRISON: that just to men or males, because

00:10:03,370 → 00:10:05,889

EMILY HARRISON: that can be present within females,

00:10:05,890 → 00:10:07,929

EMILY HARRISON: non-binary and trans as well.

00:10:07,930 → 00:10:10,889

EMILY HARRISON: So it is looking very broadly at

00:10:10,890 → 00:10:14,629

EMILY HARRISON: those terms and at those experiences.

00:10:14,630 → 00:10:16,249

EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, if I could start with you on this

00:10:16,250 → 00:10:18,789

EMILY HARRISON: one, is there anything coming to your

00:10:18,790 → 00:10:20,609

EMILY HARRISON: sphere that you think, ah, that is

00:10:20,610 → 00:10:22,269

EMILY HARRISON: reminding me of this?

00:10:22,270 → 00:10:23,709

EMILY HARRISON: Would you like to tell us a little bit about

00:10:23,710 → 00:10:24,319

EMILY HARRISON: it?

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STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose there's nothing springing to

00:10:26,240 → 00:10:28,819

STEPHEN PILLING: mind directly from the Helpline because we

00:10:28,820 → 00:10:30,543

STEPHEN PILLING: deal with so many cases day-to-day.

00:10:31,560 → 00:10:34,499

STEPHEN PILLING: It's very hard to pinpoint one.

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STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose we're having this debate right

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STEPHEN PILLING: now in regards to framing, using

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STEPHEN PILLING: the right language and defining

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STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity as a whole, you know,

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STEPHEN PILLING: and we're all aware of culture

00:10:50,670 → 00:10:52,014

STEPHEN PILLING: wars that are going on at the moment — language

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STEPHEN PILLING: is so important and it's important to get

00:10:57,210 → 00:10:58,579

STEPHEN PILLING: a definition correct.

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STEPHEN PILLING: I think from what I'm picking up is that,

00:11:02,890 → 00:11:05,529

STEPHEN PILLING: if we were to use the term 'toxic

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STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity', you've got young men

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STEPHEN PILLING: — and older men also — but young

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STEPHEN PILLING: men and they feel that it's necessary to

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STEPHEN PILLING: suppress their emotions, reject any

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STEPHEN PILLING: sense that they themselves might present

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STEPHEN PILLING: as vulnerable.

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STEPHEN PILLING: What I'm seeing more of — and you see

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STEPHEN PILLING: it on social media more and more —people

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STEPHEN PILLING: are prioritising dominance and aggression,

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STEPHEN PILLING: and there's less focus on actually

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STEPHEN PILLING: what is healthy masculinity, what is

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STEPHEN PILLING: positive masculinity.

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STEPHEN PILLING: So for me right now, we need to be really

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STEPHEN PILLING: sensitive in regards to using the correct

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STEPHEN PILLING: language and

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STEPHEN PILLING: not demonising people in the sense of

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STEPHEN PILLING: actually embracing masculinity and letting

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STEPHEN PILLING: them understand that it's

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STEPHEN PILLING: a spectrum and that we really need to

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STEPHEN PILLING: define what is positive masculinity and

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STEPHEN PILLING: what is unhealthy.

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EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, have you got a

00:12:07,080 → 00:12:08,589

EMILY HARRISON: viewpoint on this?

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think going back to Stephen's point

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about the language, the language is key

00:12:12,530 → 00:12:14,869

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and the language that we use towards

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young boys I think is really, really

00:12:16,910 → 00:12:18,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important.

00:12:18,290 → 00:12:19,689

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Trying to reframe language in a

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: different way for me is important and

00:12:22,170 → 00:12:24,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I've even had debates with others around

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: things that you say to little boys such

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: as "be a brave little soldier".

00:12:28,170 → 00:12:30,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: You know, "don't be a cry-baby".

00:12:30,570 → 00:12:32,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And those messages, although mightn't

00:12:32,290 → 00:12:34,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: sound very harmful on face value, if a

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: child takes that and frames that in a

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: certain way that can lead into such—

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: become so destructive later on in life,

00:12:40,275 → 00:12:43,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with young boys afraid to express

00:12:43,410 → 00:12:45,589

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their emotions, to reach out for help to

00:12:45,590 → 00:12:46,969

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the likes of Childline whenever they

00:12:46,970 → 00:12:49,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: need it. And I think we all have a duty

00:12:49,470 → 00:12:52,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to rethink the language

00:12:52,570 → 00:12:54,649

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we use to young boys growing up

00:12:54,650 → 00:12:57,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: today so that they do develop a

00:12:57,750 → 00:12:59,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: more healthy viewpoint of masculinity

00:12:59,470 → 00:13:02,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and that they know that being vulnerable

00:13:02,410 → 00:13:04,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and reaching for help whenever you do

00:13:04,190 → 00:13:06,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have difficulties is okay; it's not a

00:13:06,410 → 00:13:07,269

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: bad thing

00:13:07,270 → 00:13:08,889

EMILY HARRISON: Sure, sure.

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EMILY HARRISON: When we're talking about those children and

00:13:10,930 → 00:13:14,109

EMILY HARRISON: we're looking at the whole raft of

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EMILY HARRISON: forums that are available, particularly

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EMILY HARRISON: online, for children at the moment

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EMILY HARRISON: — if we put all those together, that is

00:13:21,890 → 00:13:24,449

EMILY HARRISON: pretty much what the 'manosphere' is.

00:13:24,450 → 00:13:27,669

EMILY HARRISON: It's the collection of different forums

00:13:27,670 → 00:13:29,597

EMILY HARRISON: that people are having these conversations

00:13:29,598 → 00:13:32,809

EMILY HARRISON: on and sometimes they are really

00:13:32,810 → 00:13:34,249

EMILY HARRISON: unhealthy.

00:13:34,250 → 00:13:36,244

EMILY HARRISON: Cormac, from a Childline perspective, have

00:13:37,420 → 00:13:40,019

EMILY HARRISON: we seen that come through where we're

00:13:40,020 → 00:13:42,239

EMILY HARRISON: getting young people — boys and girls —

00:13:42,240 → 00:13:45,159

EMILY HARRISON: coming through with their concerns about

00:13:45,160 → 00:13:47,149

EMILY HARRISON: forums and participation?

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CORMAC NOLAN: Definitely. And as my colleagues were

00:13:49,710 → 00:13:52,529

CORMAC NOLAN: speaking there, I was just reflecting on the

00:13:52,530 → 00:13:55,469

CORMAC NOLAN: number of influences, external influences,

00:13:55,470 → 00:13:58,190

CORMAC NOLAN: that a young person can be exposed to.

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CORMAC NOLAN: Because the online environment is so

00:14:01,110 → 00:14:04,429

CORMAC NOLAN: available, it's there all of the time.

00:14:04,430 → 00:14:07,909

CORMAC NOLAN: And young people can be quite seduced,

00:14:07,910 → 00:14:10,209

CORMAC NOLAN: if you like, or easily influenced into

00:14:10,210 → 00:14:12,379

CORMAC NOLAN: certain environments and certain communities

00:14:12,380 → 00:14:15,739

CORMAC NOLAN: within the online environment

00:14:15,740 → 00:14:18,739

CORMAC NOLAN: that can resonate with them

00:14:18,740 → 00:14:20,859

CORMAC NOLAN: to some degree.

00:14:20,860 → 00:14:22,379

CORMAC NOLAN: Sometimes for children and young people, they

00:14:22,380 → 00:14:24,119

CORMAC NOLAN: tell us when they become part of this and

00:14:24,120 → 00:14:25,739

CORMAC NOLAN: they become involved in conversations, it's

00:14:25,740 → 00:14:27,640

CORMAC NOLAN: difficult to remove themselves from this.

00:14:28,740 → 00:14:30,759

CORMAC NOLAN: And opinions that they develop wouldn't

00:14:30,760 → 00:14:32,359

CORMAC NOLAN: necessarily have been opinions or thoughts

00:14:32,360 → 00:14:35,359

CORMAC NOLAN: that they would normally have held.

00:14:35,360 → 00:14:36,919

CORMAC NOLAN: If you imagine that we have a group of

00:14:36,920 → 00:14:39,659

CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people who maybe are at

00:14:39,660 → 00:14:42,659

CORMAC NOLAN: school together, but whose online activity is

00:14:42,660 → 00:14:44,809

CORMAC NOLAN: similar to what I have described, you can see

00:14:44,810 → 00:14:47,589

CORMAC NOLAN: how this thing perpetuates and how it can

00:14:47,590 → 00:14:50,049

CORMAC NOLAN: grow and how we need a more positive

00:14:50,050 → 00:14:52,809

CORMAC NOLAN: influence for children and young people.

00:14:52,810 → 00:14:55,689

CORMAC NOLAN: The point about language earlier on is that

00:14:55,690 → 00:14:58,569

CORMAC NOLAN: we don't tend to use labels, and if a young

00:14:58,570 → 00:15:01,109

CORMAC NOLAN: person brings a label to us we would very

00:15:01,110 → 00:15:03,829

CORMAC NOLAN: much explore "what does that mean for you,

00:15:03,830 → 00:15:06,289

CORMAC NOLAN: how does that impact on you and how does that

00:15:06,290 → 00:15:09,149

CORMAC NOLAN: play out in your life?" But what I would say

00:15:09,150 → 00:15:12,009

CORMAC NOLAN: is 'toxic' — on its own, not necessarily

00:15:12,010 → 00:15:14,449

CORMAC NOLAN: related to masculinity — but 'toxic' is a

00:15:14,450 → 00:15:16,289

CORMAC NOLAN: word that children and young people frequently

00:15:16,290 → 00:15:18,989

CORMAC NOLAN: use about relationships and friendships.

00:15:18,990 → 00:15:22,209

CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a good understanding that is

00:15:22,210 → 00:15:23,907

CORMAC NOLAN: relevant to children and young people.

00:15:24,990 → 00:15:27,529

CORMAC NOLAN: But in terms of the online environment,

00:15:27,530 → 00:15:30,229

CORMAC NOLAN: absolutely it is hugely influential for

00:15:30,230 → 00:15:32,709

CORMAC NOLAN: children and people and its accessibility we

00:15:32,710 → 00:15:35,389

CORMAC NOLAN: know can be a good thing, but we know it can

00:15:35,390 → 00:15:37,769

CORMAC NOLAN: also be quite a bad thing as well.

00:15:37,770 → 00:15:40,289

EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, a little earlier on you

00:15:40,290 → 00:15:42,429

EMILY HARRISON: talked to us a little bit about your

00:15:42,430 → 00:15:44,369

EMILY HARRISON: counselling work and obviously you've got

00:15:44,370 → 00:15:46,749

EMILY HARRISON: your Helpline work as well.

00:15:46,750 → 00:15:49,869

EMILY HARRISON: With the men that you supported as victims

00:15:49,870 → 00:15:52,945

EMILY HARRISON: of domestic abuse, and those men that

00:15:54,030 → 00:15:55,909

EMILY HARRISON: came to you for counselling services in

00:15:55,910 → 00:15:57,789

EMILY HARRISON: general, were there a lot that came through

00:15:57,790 → 00:16:01,169

EMILY HARRISON: that were fathers? And how did

00:16:01,170 → 00:16:04,219

EMILY HARRISON: the experiences that they were having, have

00:16:04,220 → 00:16:07,279

EMILY HARRISON: an impact on their relationship with their

00:16:07,280 → 00:16:09,779

EMILY HARRISON: children? So, I'm asking more about the

00:16:09,780 → 00:16:12,679

EMILY HARRISON: impact of that relationship and those,

00:16:12,680 → 00:16:16,059

EMILY HARRISON: perhaps, traumas that they'd had.

00:16:16,060 → 00:16:17,859

EMILY HARRISON: How did that affect the relationship with

00:16:17,860 → 00:16:19,119

EMILY HARRISON: the children?

00:16:19,120 → 00:16:21,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever you ask that question, the

00:16:21,380 → 00:16:23,779

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: first thing that comes to mind is most

00:16:23,780 → 00:16:25,819

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: of the men that I work with were

00:16:25,820 → 00:16:27,119

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers.

00:16:27,120 → 00:16:30,659

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And a common theme that I recall was

00:16:30,660 → 00:16:34,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that the children were

00:16:34,060 → 00:16:36,339

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: frequently encouraged to deride their

00:16:36,340 → 00:16:38,239

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers and see them as being less than

00:16:38,240 → 00:16:41,019

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: men, being weak, being feeble; not being

00:16:41,020 → 00:16:43,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: real men because they weren't able to

00:16:43,380 → 00:16:46,539

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: live to the typical male role model

00:16:46,540 → 00:16:49,429

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in the house with the more dominant

00:16:49,430 → 00:16:50,865

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: female being in the home.

00:16:50,866 → 00:16:53,989

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Then you had same-sex couples that

00:16:53,990 → 00:16:55,729

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: were — you know, a male presenting from

00:16:55,730 → 00:16:59,325

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: a same-sex couple — who, again,

00:16:59,326 → 00:17:01,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reaching out for help, they were worried

00:17:01,190 → 00:17:03,129

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they were going to be judged and

00:17:03,130 → 00:17:05,184

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: actually being seen as less than men

00:17:06,290 → 00:17:08,209

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for a double reason; because they'd let

00:17:08,210 → 00:17:10,249

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: this happen to them, because their

00:17:10,250 → 00:17:12,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship was seen as being wrong in

00:17:12,490 → 00:17:14,328

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the first place by some of their family.

00:17:14,329 → 00:17:15,789

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So then for this to happen within that

00:17:15,790 → 00:17:17,939

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship, they were often told "well

00:17:17,940 → 00:17:19,219

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you see, you see".

00:17:19,220 → 00:17:22,338

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So I think for men, it

00:17:22,339 → 00:17:23,648

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: was the weakness.

00:17:23,649 → 00:17:26,659

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The weakness; they really felt that

00:17:26,660 → 00:17:28,279

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their masculinity had been robbed, and

00:17:28,280 → 00:17:29,879

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you could really see that?

00:17:29,880 → 00:17:31,679

EMILY HARRISON: That's really interesting, really

00:17:31,680 → 00:17:32,939

EMILY HARRISON: interesting.

00:17:32,940 → 00:17:34,699

EMILY HARRISON: You've just touched on something else there

00:17:34,700 → 00:17:36,399

EMILY HARRISON: that I want us to have a little bit of a

00:17:36,400 → 00:17:38,639

EMILY HARRISON: discussion about as a group really, so feel

00:17:38,640 → 00:17:40,420

EMILY HARRISON: free to chip in.

00:17:40,421 → 00:17:43,979

EMILY HARRISON: Let's talk about role modelling.

00:17:43,980 → 00:17:47,159

EMILY HARRISON: So what do you see as effective

00:17:47,160 → 00:17:49,439

EMILY HARRISON: role modelling? What does that look like?

00:17:49,440 → 00:17:50,939

EMILY HARRISON: What does it look like to you?

00:17:52,160 → 00:17:53,273

EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, do you want to start us off?

00:17:54,290 → 00:17:57,329

STEPHEN PILLING: From a personal perspective, I'm a

00:17:57,330 → 00:18:00,129

STEPHEN PILLING: father now. I'm raising a little boy who

00:18:00,130 → 00:18:03,189

STEPHEN PILLING: is now 11 years old and

00:18:03,190 → 00:18:06,169

STEPHEN PILLING: he's entering in this world where he's

00:18:06,170 → 00:18:09,729

STEPHEN PILLING: going to be exposed to social media.

00:18:09,730 → 00:18:12,489

STEPHEN PILLING: He's going be exposed to other opinions

00:18:12,490 → 00:18:15,569

STEPHEN PILLING: outside the family network and

00:18:15,570 → 00:18:17,389

STEPHEN PILLING: he is going to need to make his own

00:18:17,390 → 00:18:20,489

STEPHEN PILLING: decisions in life as a young person.

00:18:20,490 → 00:18:23,449

STEPHEN PILLING: So my aim as a parent

00:18:23,450 → 00:18:26,569

STEPHEN PILLING: in regards to role modelling is — where

00:18:26,570 → 00:18:29,709

STEPHEN PILLING: my primary focus is — is trying to

00:18:29,710 → 00:18:32,663

STEPHEN PILLING: develop an understanding in regards

00:18:32,664 → 00:18:35,649

STEPHEN PILLING: to defining values and what

00:18:35,650 → 00:18:38,589

STEPHEN PILLING: values are. And the reason that I focus on

00:18:38,590 → 00:18:41,769

STEPHEN PILLING: that so much is that my hope

00:18:41,770 → 00:18:44,969

STEPHEN PILLING: is that if my child is

00:18:44,970 → 00:18:48,029

STEPHEN PILLING: values-led in life, that will

00:18:48,030 → 00:18:50,589

STEPHEN PILLING: equip him in regards to making good

00:18:50,590 → 00:18:53,689

STEPHEN PILLING: choices and good decisions in life and in

00:18:53,690 → 00:18:55,529

STEPHEN PILLING: relationships in the future.

00:18:55,530 → 00:18:58,489

STEPHEN PILLING: And I think where the struggle is right

00:18:58,490 → 00:19:01,229

STEPHEN PILLING: now — and it was something I didn't learn

00:19:01,230 → 00:19:04,388

STEPHEN PILLING: until into my early 20s

00:19:04,389 → 00:19:07,569

STEPHEN PILLING: — although that I did

00:19:07,570 → 00:19:10,789

STEPHEN PILLING: have a value and belief base, I couldn't

00:19:10,790 → 00:19:12,849

STEPHEN PILLING: clearly define it.

00:19:12,850 → 00:19:15,309

STEPHEN PILLING: I got help with that and I think that's

00:19:15,310 → 00:19:17,469

STEPHEN PILLING: where we need to aim our focus and

00:19:17,470 → 00:19:20,469

STEPHEN PILLING: modelling in regards to children

00:19:20,470 → 00:19:23,439

STEPHEN PILLING: and people; getting them

00:19:23,440 → 00:19:26,719

STEPHEN PILLING: to understand what a value is and

00:19:26,720 → 00:19:28,879

STEPHEN PILLING: defining their values, encouraging them

00:19:28,880 → 00:19:30,679

STEPHEN PILLING: and helping them to define their values

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STEPHEN PILLING: moving forward.

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EMILY HARRISON: I suppose it's developing that moral

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EMILY HARRISON: compass as well, isn't it, to be

00:19:37,370 → 00:19:38,390

EMILY HARRISON: able to carry through.

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EMILY HARRISON: Yeah. Cormac, did you have a thought

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EMILY HARRISON: in mind there?

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CORMAC NOLAN: I guess my principle thought really is

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CORMAC NOLAN: that, for children and young people, we have

00:19:49,280 → 00:19:51,219

CORMAC NOLAN: to be mindful that they're still growing,

00:19:51,220 → 00:19:52,659

CORMAC NOLAN: they're still developing, they are still trying

00:19:52,660 → 00:19:56,219

CORMAC NOLAN: to find who they are, "where do I fit in,

00:19:56,220 → 00:19:59,339

CORMAC NOLAN: what type of person am I?" So they're

00:19:59,340 → 00:20:02,379

CORMAC NOLAN: already in a time of development but also a

00:20:02,380 → 00:20:05,379

CORMAC NOLAN: time of confusion — throw in puberty just to

00:20:05,380 → 00:20:07,359

CORMAC NOLAN: confuse things even more.

00:20:07,360 → 00:20:09,479

CORMAC NOLAN: And I think— I mean, I totally agree with

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CORMAC NOLAN: what Stephen has said, and I probably would

00:20:11,100 → 00:20:14,119

CORMAC NOLAN: add to that: that as adults, we need to

00:20:14,120 → 00:20:16,919

CORMAC NOLAN: be very mindful of our behaviour and how our

00:20:16,920 → 00:20:19,079

CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour can influence children and young

00:20:19,080 → 00:20:22,179

CORMAC NOLAN: people. It's not as black and white as right

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CORMAC NOLAN: and wrong — it kind of is, but everybody's

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CORMAC NOLAN: right and everybody's wrong is slightly

00:20:26,260 → 00:20:27,260

CORMAC NOLAN: different.

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CORMAC NOLAN: We should endeavour to be positive role

00:20:30,520 → 00:20:32,659

CORMAC NOLAN: models, to behave in a way that we would like

00:20:32,660 → 00:20:34,559

CORMAC NOLAN: to see other children and young people,

00:20:34,560 → 00:20:38,139

CORMAC NOLAN: including our own, behave. To be respectful

00:20:38,140 → 00:20:39,479

CORMAC NOLAN: to other people.

00:20:39,480 → 00:20:41,199

CORMAC NOLAN: And I think we can keep it simple.

00:20:41,200 → 00:20:43,059

CORMAC NOLAN: It doesn't have to be complex, but I think it

00:20:43,060 → 00:20:45,239

CORMAC NOLAN: needs to be consistent and that's sometimes

00:20:45,240 → 00:20:47,059

CORMAC NOLAN: where it can be difficult.

00:20:47,060 → 00:20:49,679

CORMAC NOLAN: But to have a bit of understanding and a bit

00:20:49,680 → 00:20:51,849

CORMAC NOLAN: sympathy for how difficult it is growing up.

00:20:51,850 → 00:20:54,259

CORMAC NOLAN: We all know, we've been there, and it's even

00:20:54,260 → 00:20:57,259

CORMAC NOLAN: more difficult now. And to be aware of

00:20:57,260 → 00:21:00,419

CORMAC NOLAN: the external influences and have a curiosity

00:21:00,420 → 00:21:03,699

CORMAC NOLAN: particularly about online life, and

00:21:03,700 → 00:21:06,279

CORMAC NOLAN: online and external activity; a healthy

00:21:06,280 → 00:21:09,119

CORMAC NOLAN: curiosity and interest that your child will

00:21:09,120 → 00:21:10,989

CORMAC NOLAN: respond positively too.

00:21:10,990 → 00:21:12,309

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Reflecting on both what Stephen and

00:21:12,310 → 00:21:15,149

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac have said, I do see positives

00:21:15,150 → 00:21:17,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: taking place. I'm aware of one

00:21:17,190 → 00:21:19,129

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: organisation based in Belfast.

00:21:19,130 → 00:21:20,869

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They try and incorporate what both

00:21:20,870 → 00:21:23,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Stephen and Cormac have talked about.

00:21:23,750 → 00:21:25,149

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They go out and they talk to young men

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ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in schools, young boys in schools.

00:21:28,010 → 00:21:30,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And they, rather than...

00:21:30,570 → 00:21:32,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever these views come up, these

00:21:32,470 → 00:21:34,209

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: toxic views come up, these unhealthy

00:21:34,210 → 00:21:37,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: views, rather than saying,

00:21:37,230 → 00:21:39,009

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "you're wrong, that's bad, you shouldn't

00:21:39,010 → 00:21:41,378

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: be doing that", they explore.

00:21:41,379 → 00:21:42,999

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They explore where those viewpoints have

00:21:43,000 → 00:21:44,759

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: come from. They explore to get an

00:21:44,760 → 00:21:47,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: understanding of what that child or

00:21:47,380 → 00:21:49,119

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young person's life has been like to

00:21:49,120 → 00:21:50,120

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them to that point.

00:21:51,080 → 00:21:52,459

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think it's that engagement that's really

00:21:52,460 → 00:21:55,039

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important. That we continue to engage,

00:21:55,040 → 00:21:56,939

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we don't label someone a certain

00:21:56,940 → 00:21:58,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: way because they have a viewpoint. We

00:21:58,300 → 00:21:59,919

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: don't know what their history has been.

00:21:59,920 → 00:22:01,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: We don't know what's led them to the

00:22:01,300 → 00:22:03,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: point. But we can help them move

00:22:03,060 → 00:22:05,639

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, gain an understanding of what's

00:22:05,640 → 00:22:08,079

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them there and hopefully help them

00:22:08,080 → 00:22:10,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to develop more healthy viewpoints by

00:22:10,380 → 00:22:12,929

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging — gently challenging and, as

00:22:12,930 → 00:22:15,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac said earlier on, at their pace.

00:22:15,230 → 00:22:18,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: That work is taking place because I do

00:22:18,190 → 00:22:19,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: see it happening and it gives me hope.

00:22:20,590 → 00:22:22,329

EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's about

00:22:22,330 → 00:22:24,189

EMILY HARRISON: keeping the conversation going as well,

00:22:24,190 → 00:22:26,309

EMILY HARRISON: isn't it? Because we know that we need to

00:22:26,310 → 00:22:29,289

EMILY HARRISON: have services accessible for people who are

00:22:29,290 → 00:22:31,589

EMILY HARRISON: identifying that maybe this is something

00:22:31,590 → 00:22:33,449

EMILY HARRISON: that they'd like to talk about.

00:22:33,450 → 00:22:35,449

EMILY HARRISON: Maybe this is something they'd like to

00:22:35,450 → 00:22:37,969

EMILY HARRISON: explore their own feelings on, which is

00:22:37,970 → 00:22:39,489

EMILY HARRISON: obviously something that we absolutely

00:22:39,490 → 00:22:40,490

EMILY HARRISON: encourage.

00:22:41,490 → 00:22:44,469

EMILY HARRISON: If you need to, give the NSPCC Helpline a

00:22:44,470 → 00:22:47,309

EMILY HARRISON: call: 08 08 800 5000 is the number for

00:22:47,310 → 00:22:50,449

EMILY HARRISON: that. We also have, of course,

00:22:50,450 → 00:22:53,929

EMILY HARRISON: Childline, who we actively encourage

00:22:53,930 → 00:22:56,309

EMILY HARRISON: children that would like to talk through

00:22:56,310 → 00:22:59,209

EMILY HARRISON: what they're feeling, particularly if they

00:22:59,210 → 00:23:01,909

EMILY HARRISON: are feeling quite vulnerable around this

00:23:01,910 → 00:23:03,189

EMILY HARRISON: topic as well.

00:23:03,190 → 00:23:07,709

EMILY HARRISON: And that is 0800 1111.

00:23:07,710 → 00:23:10,309

EMILY HARRISON: So we do actively encourage people to give

00:23:10,310 → 00:23:12,729

EMILY HARRISON: us a call and we can help you to talk

00:23:12,730 → 00:23:14,849

EMILY HARRISON: through those concerns.

00:23:14,850 → 00:23:17,129

EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, Cormac and Stephen, thank you very,

00:23:17,130 → 00:23:18,949

EMILY HARRISON: very much for your time.

00:23:18,950 → 00:23:21,569

EMILY HARRISON: It's been a really good discussion and

00:23:21,570 → 00:23:23,949

EMILY HARRISON: hopefully it'll be one that we will

00:23:23,950 → 00:23:26,289

EMILY HARRISON: continue in the office and will continue to

00:23:26,290 → 00:23:28,429

EMILY HARRISON: talk about in our day-to-day business.

00:23:28,430 → 00:23:31,009

EMILY HARRISON: Thank you. And you've been listening to the

00:23:31,010 → 00:23:32,750

EMILY HARRISON: NSPCC Learning Podcast.

00:23:37,110 → 00:23:40,869

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast.

00:23:40,870 → 00:23:43,629

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

00:23:43,630 → 00:23:46,349

OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

00:23:46,350 → 00:23:48,489

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

00:23:48,490 → 00:23:50,489

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

00:23:50,490 → 00:23:53,389

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

00:23:53,390 → 00:23:56,809

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our website

00:23:56,810 → 00:24:00,862

OUTRO: for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.

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