Audioboom

Transcript for Male experiences of domestic abuse

00:00:03,120 → 00:00:06,299

INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

00:00:06,300 → 00:00:08,959

INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection

00:00:08,960 → 00:00:12,419

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

00:00:12,420 → 00:00:15,459

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

00:00:15,460 → 00:00:18,179

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

00:00:18,180 → 00:00:21,099

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

00:00:24,330 → 00:00:27,309

EMILY HARRISON: Hi, welcome to the NSPCC Learning

00:00:27,310 → 00:00:30,129

EMILY HARRISON: podcast. My name's Emily, I'm a Domestic

00:00:30,130 → 00:00:32,329

EMILY HARRISON: Abuse Practice Advisor working mainly on

00:00:32,330 → 00:00:35,229

EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline with the NSPCC.

00:00:35,230 → 00:00:37,089

EMILY HARRISON: Today we're here to talk about a few topics

00:00:37,090 → 00:00:39,849

EMILY HARRISON: that show up on the Helpline, Childline and

00:00:39,850 → 00:00:41,989

EMILY HARRISON: the wider organisation, and indeed in

00:00:41,990 → 00:00:43,549

EMILY HARRISON: society as well.

00:00:43,550 → 00:00:45,309

EMILY HARRISON: Discussions today are focusing on male

00:00:45,310 → 00:00:47,589

EMILY HARRISON: experiences of domestic abuse and wider

00:00:47,590 → 00:00:51,179

EMILY HARRISON: harms, harmful masculinity, and also

00:00:51,180 → 00:00:52,899

EMILY HARRISON: gives thought to how men can be allies for

00:00:52,900 → 00:00:54,539

EMILY HARRISON: women and children when it comes to looking

00:00:54,540 → 00:00:56,819

EMILY HARRISON: at alternative behaviours and the work that

00:00:56,820 → 00:00:58,239

EMILY HARRISON: we're involved with.

00:00:58,240 → 00:01:00,309

EMILY HARRISON: I'm joined today by Adrian.

00:01:00,310 → 00:01:01,629

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, my name is Adrian.

00:01:01,630 → 00:01:04,488

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm a Practice Manager with the NSPCC

00:01:04,489 → 00:01:06,849

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Helpline. I am a counsellor by

00:01:06,850 → 00:01:10,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: profession and I continue to

00:01:10,230 → 00:01:12,269

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: deliver counselling to young people

00:01:12,270 → 00:01:13,829

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: outside the organisation one day a week.

00:01:13,830 → 00:01:14,830

EMILY HARRISON: Stephen.

00:01:15,070 → 00:01:17,329

STEPHEN PILLING: Hi, my name is Stephen and I'm a

00:01:17,330 → 00:01:18,829

STEPHEN PILLING: practitioner on the Helpline.

00:01:18,830 → 00:01:21,409

STEPHEN PILLING: I've done this role for around five years.

00:01:21,410 → 00:01:23,189

STEPHEN PILLING: I have a social work background,

00:01:23,190 → 00:01:26,529

STEPHEN PILLING: qualifying in 2009, and much of

00:01:26,530 → 00:01:29,549

STEPHEN PILLING: my work and career has been working in

00:01:29,550 → 00:01:31,889

STEPHEN PILLING: the voluntary sector, supporting children

00:01:31,890 → 00:01:33,689

STEPHEN PILLING: and their families.

00:01:33,690 → 00:01:35,029

EMILY HARRISON: And Cormac.

00:01:35,030 → 00:01:37,569

CORMAC NOLAN: My name is Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the

00:01:37,570 → 00:01:39,249

CORMAC NOLAN: Service Heads in Childline.

00:01:39,250 → 00:01:41,769

CORMAC NOLAN: That means that I have responsibilities for

00:01:41,770 → 00:01:44,589

CORMAC NOLAN: some of our Childline bases and the live

00:01:44,590 → 00:01:46,329

CORMAC NOLAN: service that we offer. But in addition to

00:01:46,330 → 00:01:49,309

CORMAC NOLAN: that, I'm also responsible for the Childline

00:01:49,310 → 00:01:51,559

CORMAC NOLAN: website and everything that goes on there.

00:01:51,560 → 00:01:53,259

EMILY HARRISON: Welcome, welcome and thank you for taking

00:01:53,260 → 00:01:55,819

EMILY HARRISON: part. I do appreciate you giving up your

00:01:55,820 → 00:01:58,179

EMILY HARRISON: time to be able to get this information out

00:01:58,180 → 00:02:00,179

EMILY HARRISON: there and to have these discussions.

00:02:00,180 → 00:02:02,059

EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, if I can just start with you.

00:02:02,060 → 00:02:04,239

EMILY HARRISON: You've got a lot of experience working with

00:02:04,240 → 00:02:07,959

EMILY HARRISON: men in a counselling setting.

00:02:07,960 → 00:02:09,359

EMILY HARRISON: Can you tell us just a little bit about

00:02:09,360 → 00:02:10,698

EMILY HARRISON: what that looked like to you?

00:02:10,699 → 00:02:12,459

EMILY HARRISON: So for example, was there a specific

00:02:12,460 → 00:02:15,459

EMILY HARRISON: personality type that came through and

00:02:15,460 → 00:02:18,729

EMILY HARRISON: what did their presentation look like?

00:02:18,730 → 00:02:21,009

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Well, before I was counselling with

00:02:21,010 → 00:02:23,949

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young people as I am now, I did work for

00:02:23,950 → 00:02:25,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: an organisation working with male

00:02:25,490 → 00:02:26,889

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: survivors of domestic abuse.

00:02:28,150 → 00:02:29,969

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The common presentation you would see

00:02:29,970 → 00:02:32,729

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: would be men who were afraid to talk

00:02:32,730 → 00:02:35,309

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about their experiences, men that felt

00:02:35,310 → 00:02:36,909

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they just would not be believed,

00:02:38,490 → 00:02:40,069

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and men who...

00:02:40,070 → 00:02:43,369

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, they had gone through various

00:02:43,370 → 00:02:45,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: legal process, things like that, where

00:02:45,750 → 00:02:46,926

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the courts just hadn't believed them.

00:02:48,350 → 00:02:50,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Unfortunately, you know, it has

00:02:50,490 → 00:02:52,589

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: improved, but look, whenever I first

00:02:52,590 → 00:02:54,789

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: started out in this work — in maybe 2010,

00:02:54,790 → 00:02:57,889

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: 2011 — it was very challenging for men.

00:02:57,890 → 00:02:59,249

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: It still is very challenging for men to come

00:02:59,250 → 00:03:00,649

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, but it was extremely

00:03:00,650 → 00:03:02,369

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging back then.

00:03:02,370 → 00:03:03,669

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The flip side of that was I also worked

00:03:03,670 → 00:03:05,369

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with male perpetrators of domestic

00:03:05,370 → 00:03:08,449

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: abuse. Their presentations were very

00:03:08,450 → 00:03:11,009

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging. You would have lots of

00:03:11,010 → 00:03:13,009

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: people who would come because it was

00:03:13,010 → 00:03:14,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: court ordered. For example, if they

00:03:14,490 → 00:03:16,249

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: wanted to see their children, they had to

00:03:16,250 → 00:03:17,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: receive anger management or they had to

00:03:17,750 → 00:03:19,369

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: go to counselling in relation to what

00:03:19,370 → 00:03:22,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: they had done. And the typical

00:03:22,230 → 00:03:24,109

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: presentation really was them trying to

00:03:24,110 → 00:03:25,630

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: groom me, to become their best mate.

00:03:26,730 → 00:03:28,929

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They thought that I would somehow,

00:03:28,930 → 00:03:31,729

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: because I was a man, take to their story

00:03:31,730 → 00:03:35,329

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and probably, I don't know,

00:03:35,330 → 00:03:38,529

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: collude with them and say

00:03:38,530 → 00:03:40,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "oh yeah, yeah, I understand what it is,

00:03:40,230 → 00:03:41,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that's terrible, that's terrible, that's

00:03:41,570 → 00:03:43,349

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: terrible." You know, at the start you

00:03:43,350 → 00:03:45,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have to go along with it a little bit to get

00:03:45,300 → 00:03:46,979

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: them to kind of trust you.

00:03:46,980 → 00:03:49,099

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And then it's about working and

00:03:49,100 → 00:03:50,958

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: stripping away and challenging their

00:03:50,959 → 00:03:53,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviours, sometimes in a way that they

00:03:53,060 → 00:03:55,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: find very, very challenging.

00:03:55,060 → 00:03:58,699

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I remember having one client who was

00:03:58,700 → 00:04:00,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raising his voice going, "I'm not angry,

00:04:00,060 → 00:04:02,019

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm not angry, I'm not angry." And I

00:04:02,020 → 00:04:03,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raised my voice back and said, "you're

00:04:03,300 → 00:04:05,659

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: not angry, you're not angry, you're not angry." Then

00:04:05,660 → 00:04:08,679

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: he sat back in his chair and I said

00:04:08,680 → 00:04:11,719

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to him, "I wonder how your child

00:04:11,720 → 00:04:14,339

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: feels whenever they see you present like

00:04:14,340 → 00:04:16,159

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that." What I was trying to do was

00:04:16,160 → 00:04:17,458

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reflect back; you know, it's bad enough

00:04:17,459 → 00:04:18,838

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for an adult to be faced with that

00:04:18,839 → 00:04:20,898

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviour, but for a child to be faced

00:04:20,899 → 00:04:21,899

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with that behaviour.

00:04:22,860 → 00:04:24,639

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So, yeah, I got to see both sides of it,

00:04:24,640 → 00:04:26,819

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: both sides: of the male perpetrator and

00:04:26,820 → 00:04:27,969

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the male survivor.

00:04:27,970 → 00:04:30,609

EMILY HARRISON: It must have been quite a time to work as

00:04:30,610 → 00:04:33,009

EMILY HARRISON: well, because we say that sometimes, you

00:04:33,010 → 00:04:34,409

EMILY HARRISON: know, that they're getting better and that

00:04:34,410 → 00:04:36,689

EMILY HARRISON: we've got more understanding and that we're

00:04:36,690 → 00:04:38,149

EMILY HARRISON: getting better equipped to deal with

00:04:38,150 → 00:04:40,509

EMILY HARRISON: things. But everything changes just so

00:04:40,510 → 00:04:42,229

EMILY HARRISON: quickly, doesn't it?

00:04:42,230 → 00:04:44,329

EMILY HARRISON: These things, they do go around in circles

00:04:44,330 → 00:04:47,449

EMILY HARRISON: and cycles. But we also get added

00:04:47,450 → 00:04:50,889

EMILY HARRISON: layers of difficulty in terms of barriers,

00:04:50,890 → 00:04:53,609

EMILY HARRISON: in terms of what goes on in society as

00:04:53,610 → 00:04:56,809

EMILY HARRISON: well, don't we? Stephen, have you

00:04:56,810 → 00:04:59,699

EMILY HARRISON: had any contacts on the Helpline where

00:04:59,700 → 00:05:02,499

EMILY HARRISON: you've been able to identify something

00:05:02,500 → 00:05:03,359

EMILY HARRISON: similar?

00:05:03,360 → 00:05:06,359

STEPHEN PILLING: Yes, certainly on the Helpline

00:05:06,360 → 00:05:09,479

STEPHEN PILLING: we get calls from perpetrators of

00:05:09,480 → 00:05:12,759

STEPHEN PILLING: abuse and it's trying to recognise

00:05:12,760 → 00:05:15,779

STEPHEN PILLING: that they are perpetrators of the abuse,

00:05:15,780 → 00:05:17,599

STEPHEN PILLING: which can be very, very difficult at

00:05:17,600 → 00:05:20,759

STEPHEN PILLING: times. People can be very convincing

00:05:20,760 → 00:05:22,779

STEPHEN PILLING: in what they say.

00:05:22,780 → 00:05:25,079

STEPHEN PILLING: We do get perpetrators who call, but we

00:05:25,080 → 00:05:28,259

STEPHEN PILLING: also get men who are experiencing abuse as

00:05:28,260 → 00:05:30,979

STEPHEN PILLING: well and the majority of them are fathers.

00:05:30,980 → 00:05:34,079

STEPHEN PILLING: And because parenthood is so complex

00:05:34,080 → 00:05:36,719

STEPHEN PILLING: that, you know, it's often difficult for

00:05:36,720 → 00:05:39,099

STEPHEN PILLING: men — what I'm finding is that it's

00:05:39,100 → 00:05:42,179

STEPHEN PILLING: difficult for men to define their role as

00:05:42,180 → 00:05:44,239

STEPHEN PILLING: a parent. We have to listen and obviously

00:05:44,240 → 00:05:47,119

STEPHEN PILLING: validate their concerns, but at the same

00:05:47,120 → 00:05:49,659

STEPHEN PILLING: time we also maybe need to signpost them

00:05:49,660 → 00:05:52,819

STEPHEN PILLING: to specialised services who

00:05:52,820 → 00:05:55,839

STEPHEN PILLING: could explore and help them within

00:05:55,840 → 00:05:58,499

STEPHEN PILLING: their definition of concluding if they've

00:05:58,500 → 00:06:00,999

STEPHEN PILLING: been experiencing domestic abuse.

00:06:01,000 → 00:06:03,199

STEPHEN PILLING: Because I think if you're defining the

00:06:03,200 → 00:06:06,359

STEPHEN PILLING: problem initially, it's easier for any

00:06:06,360 → 00:06:09,899

STEPHEN PILLING: individual to work towards solutions.

00:06:09,900 → 00:06:12,239

STEPHEN PILLING: We don't necessarily know the long-term

00:06:12,240 → 00:06:15,699

STEPHEN PILLING: outcomes. So we get a snapshot and we're

00:06:15,700 → 00:06:19,079

STEPHEN PILLING: trying to give certain advice in

00:06:19,080 → 00:06:21,469

STEPHEN PILLING: a very time-limited way.

00:06:21,470 → 00:06:24,729

EMILY HARRISON: I think those outcomes nationally,

00:06:24,730 → 00:06:27,169

EMILY HARRISON: not just on the Helpline, but nationally

00:06:27,170 → 00:06:30,269

EMILY HARRISON: with other organisations and the

00:06:30,270 → 00:06:33,089

EMILY HARRISON: statutory framework as well, do point to

00:06:33,090 → 00:06:35,149

EMILY HARRISON: that early intervention, early

00:06:35,150 → 00:06:38,949

EMILY HARRISON: identification of those pitfalls,

00:06:38,950 → 00:06:40,489

EMILY HARRISON: problems, dilemmas, barriers.

00:06:40,490 → 00:06:42,969

EMILY HARRISON: The earlier that we can catch those, the

00:06:42,970 → 00:06:45,129

EMILY HARRISON: better the outcome for the child.

00:06:45,130 → 00:06:47,609

EMILY HARRISON: What the Helpline does in terms of giving

00:06:47,610 → 00:06:51,069

EMILY HARRISON: people that opportunity to talk through

00:06:51,070 → 00:06:54,589

EMILY HARRISON: the situation, the scenario, what they're

00:06:54,590 → 00:06:56,849

EMILY HARRISON: experiencing, and their child protection

00:06:56,850 → 00:06:59,009

EMILY HARRISON: concerns and their safeguarding concerns,

00:06:59,010 → 00:07:02,069

EMILY HARRISON: or identification of those, is

00:07:02,070 → 00:07:04,569

EMILY HARRISON: really valuable because we can give that

00:07:04,570 → 00:07:08,309

EMILY HARRISON: advice over the phone and email when it's

00:07:08,310 → 00:07:09,589

EMILY HARRISON: not appropriate to talk on the phone as

00:07:09,590 → 00:07:12,829

EMILY HARRISON: well. Cormac, your experiences come

00:07:12,830 → 00:07:15,409

EMILY HARRISON: from a slightly different angle — and

00:07:15,410 → 00:07:18,289

EMILY HARRISON: that's because you're predominantly with

00:07:18,290 → 00:07:20,549

EMILY HARRISON: Childline — which of course is the child

00:07:20,550 → 00:07:21,929

EMILY HARRISON: perspective.

00:07:21,930 → 00:07:25,249

EMILY HARRISON: So are there any points that

00:07:25,250 → 00:07:28,299

EMILY HARRISON: you'd like to raise on the subject?

00:07:28,300 → 00:07:30,159

CORMAC NOLAN: I think just following on from what Stephen

00:07:30,160 → 00:07:32,459

CORMAC NOLAN: said, there are definitely parallels in

00:07:32,460 → 00:07:35,439

CORMAC NOLAN: Childline alongside what Stephen has

00:07:35,440 → 00:07:38,619

CORMAC NOLAN: been saying. What we find in Childline

00:07:38,620 → 00:07:41,639

CORMAC NOLAN: is a lot of young people, young males will

00:07:41,640 → 00:07:44,619

CORMAC NOLAN: come to us knowing that something's

00:07:44,620 → 00:07:46,819

CORMAC NOLAN: not quite right, something doesn't feel right

00:07:46,820 → 00:07:48,999

CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of their experience or indeed on

00:07:49,000 → 00:07:51,439

CORMAC NOLAN: their own behaviour, but they can't quite pin

00:07:51,440 → 00:07:53,579

CORMAC NOLAN: it down. They certainly often don't have a

00:07:53,580 → 00:07:56,539

CORMAC NOLAN: name for it, but something doesn't feel right

00:07:56,540 → 00:07:58,949

CORMAC NOLAN: and it's impacting on the people around them

00:07:58,950 → 00:08:00,689

CORMAC NOLAN: or on themselves.

00:08:00,690 → 00:08:02,589

CORMAC NOLAN: There maybe — you know, we work with children

00:08:02,590 → 00:08:04,749

CORMAC NOLAN: and young people up to the age of 19 — so

00:08:04,750 → 00:08:07,509

CORMAC NOLAN: there can be babies and children involved in

00:08:07,510 → 00:08:09,509

CORMAC NOLAN: these domestic situations.

00:08:09,510 → 00:08:11,229

CORMAC NOLAN: Children and young people, of course, can be

00:08:11,230 → 00:08:13,409

CORMAC NOLAN: witnesses to domestic abuse, and of course

00:08:13,410 → 00:08:15,149

CORMAC NOLAN: that makes — in the eyes of the law — that

00:08:15,150 → 00:08:18,109

CORMAC NOLAN: makes them victims of that abuse as well.

00:08:18,110 → 00:08:21,129

CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a huge amount to unpick for

00:08:21,130 → 00:08:23,069

CORMAC NOLAN: young males, particularly, and we know

00:08:23,070 → 00:08:25,429

CORMAC NOLAN: historically it's much more difficult for

00:08:25,430 → 00:08:27,289

CORMAC NOLAN: young males to come forward, acknowledge that

00:08:27,290 → 00:08:29,009

CORMAC NOLAN: there's a problem and reach out and seek

00:08:29,010 → 00:08:32,069

CORMAC NOLAN: help. That's our experience over several

00:08:32,070 → 00:08:34,808

CORMAC NOLAN: years. I feel as though that to some degree

00:08:34,809 → 00:08:36,569

CORMAC NOLAN: that's changing.

00:08:36,570 → 00:08:38,089

CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the key things that we try to do

00:08:38,090 → 00:08:39,788

CORMAC NOLAN: with children and young people when they come

00:08:39,789 → 00:08:41,510

CORMAC NOLAN: through is really work at their pace; help

00:08:42,570 → 00:08:44,689

CORMAC NOLAN: them to feel comfortable talking to someone

00:08:44,690 → 00:08:46,609

CORMAC NOLAN: about what can be a really challenging issue.

00:08:46,610 → 00:08:49,369

CORMAC NOLAN: And we're always very mindful of what it has

00:08:49,370 → 00:08:51,609

CORMAC NOLAN: taken for a young person, a young male, to

00:08:51,610 → 00:08:53,189

CORMAC NOLAN: come through and talk to us in the first

00:08:53,190 → 00:08:54,949

CORMAC NOLAN: instance. There's been a lot of thought, a

00:08:54,950 → 00:08:56,909

CORMAC NOLAN: lot of preparation, probably a lot of soul

00:08:56,910 → 00:08:59,249

CORMAC NOLAN: searching, because it can be either an

00:08:59,250 → 00:09:01,089

CORMAC NOLAN: admission that they've done something wrong,

00:09:01,090 → 00:09:02,489

CORMAC NOLAN: or they feel that they've done something wrong,

00:09:02,490 → 00:09:04,429

CORMAC NOLAN: or that something's wrong in their life and

00:09:04,430 → 00:09:05,430

CORMAC NOLAN: around them.

00:09:06,190 → 00:09:08,149

EMILY HARRISON: We've just put this into the context of

00:09:08,150 → 00:09:09,769

EMILY HARRISON: domestic abuse.

00:09:09,770 → 00:09:12,809

EMILY HARRISON: Let's try and broaden that

00:09:12,810 → 00:09:16,029

EMILY HARRISON: thinking for a second and think about abuse

00:09:16,030 → 00:09:19,809

EMILY HARRISON: in more general terms as well.

00:09:19,810 → 00:09:22,269

EMILY HARRISON: More recently we've heard some different

00:09:22,270 → 00:09:23,749

EMILY HARRISON: words being used.

00:09:23,750 → 00:09:27,289

EMILY HARRISON: Some of those words might be 'manosphere',

00:09:27,290 → 00:09:29,769

EMILY HARRISON: 'toxic masculinity', 'patriarchy',

00:09:29,770 → 00:09:32,469

EMILY HARRISON: 'misogyny'. These words are coming through

00:09:32,470 → 00:09:33,793

EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline, they're coming through Childline,

00:09:34,470 → 00:09:36,709

EMILY HARRISON: and we need to explore what those words

00:09:36,710 → 00:09:39,469

EMILY HARRISON: mean a little bit, I think, because the

00:09:39,470 → 00:09:41,369

EMILY HARRISON: word toxic isn't really exploring the

00:09:41,370 → 00:09:44,449

EMILY HARRISON: concern, it's not explaining what

00:09:44,450 → 00:09:46,129

EMILY HARRISON: is actually going on.

00:09:46,130 → 00:09:49,189

EMILY HARRISON: We're tending to try and, rather than

00:09:49,190 → 00:09:51,209

EMILY HARRISON: use a label, use that experience.

00:09:51,210 → 00:09:53,889

EMILY HARRISON: So it might be 'unhealthy masculinity'.

00:09:53,890 → 00:09:56,489

EMILY HARRISON: It might be 'extreme masculinity'.

00:09:56,490 → 00:09:58,209

EMILY HARRISON: And of course, when we talk about that

00:09:58,210 → 00:10:00,189

EMILY HARRISON: masculinity, we're not actually limiting

00:10:00,190 → 00:10:02,110

EMILY HARRISON: that just to men or males, because

00:10:03,370 → 00:10:05,889

EMILY HARRISON: that can be present within females,

00:10:05,890 → 00:10:07,929

EMILY HARRISON: non-binary and trans as well.

00:10:07,930 → 00:10:10,889

EMILY HARRISON: So it is looking very broadly at

00:10:10,890 → 00:10:14,629

EMILY HARRISON: those terms and at those experiences.

00:10:14,630 → 00:10:16,249

EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, if I could start with you on this

00:10:16,250 → 00:10:18,789

EMILY HARRISON: one, is there anything coming to your

00:10:18,790 → 00:10:20,609

EMILY HARRISON: sphere that you think, ah, that is

00:10:20,610 → 00:10:22,269

EMILY HARRISON: reminding me of this?

00:10:22,270 → 00:10:23,709

EMILY HARRISON: Would you like to tell us a little bit about

00:10:23,710 → 00:10:24,319

EMILY HARRISON: it?

00:10:24,320 → 00:10:26,239

STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose there's nothing springing to

00:10:26,240 → 00:10:28,819

STEPHEN PILLING: mind directly from the Helpline because we

00:10:28,820 → 00:10:30,543

STEPHEN PILLING: deal with so many cases day-to-day.

00:10:31,560 → 00:10:34,499

STEPHEN PILLING: It's very hard to pinpoint one.

00:10:34,500 → 00:10:36,879

STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose we're having this debate right

00:10:36,880 → 00:10:40,099

STEPHEN PILLING: now in regards to framing, using

00:10:40,100 → 00:10:43,599

STEPHEN PILLING: the right language and defining

00:10:43,600 → 00:10:47,219

STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity as a whole, you know,

00:10:47,220 → 00:10:50,669

STEPHEN PILLING: and we're all aware of culture

00:10:50,670 → 00:10:52,014

STEPHEN PILLING: wars that are going on at the moment — language

00:10:53,670 → 00:10:57,209

STEPHEN PILLING: is so important and it's important to get

00:10:57,210 → 00:10:58,579

STEPHEN PILLING: a definition correct.

00:10:59,630 → 00:11:02,889

STEPHEN PILLING: I think from what I'm picking up is that,

00:11:02,890 → 00:11:05,529

STEPHEN PILLING: if we were to use the term 'toxic

00:11:05,530 → 00:11:08,569

STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity', you've got young men

00:11:08,570 → 00:11:11,829

STEPHEN PILLING: — and older men also — but young

00:11:11,830 → 00:11:15,549

STEPHEN PILLING: men and they feel that it's necessary to

00:11:15,550 → 00:11:18,729

STEPHEN PILLING: suppress their emotions, reject any

00:11:18,730 → 00:11:21,629

STEPHEN PILLING: sense that they themselves might present

00:11:21,630 → 00:11:23,009

STEPHEN PILLING: as vulnerable.

00:11:23,010 → 00:11:26,069

STEPHEN PILLING: What I'm seeing more of — and you see

00:11:26,070 → 00:11:29,109

STEPHEN PILLING: it on social media more and more —people

00:11:29,110 → 00:11:32,689

STEPHEN PILLING: are prioritising dominance and aggression,

00:11:32,690 → 00:11:35,789

STEPHEN PILLING: and there's less focus on actually

00:11:35,790 → 00:11:38,609

STEPHEN PILLING: what is healthy masculinity, what is

00:11:38,610 → 00:11:40,249

STEPHEN PILLING: positive masculinity.

00:11:40,250 → 00:11:42,629

STEPHEN PILLING: So for me right now, we need to be really

00:11:42,630 → 00:11:45,269

STEPHEN PILLING: sensitive in regards to using the correct

00:11:45,270 → 00:11:47,129

STEPHEN PILLING: language and

00:11:49,349 → 00:11:52,309

STEPHEN PILLING: not demonising people in the sense of

00:11:52,310 → 00:11:54,849

STEPHEN PILLING: actually embracing masculinity and letting

00:11:54,850 → 00:11:57,869

STEPHEN PILLING: them understand that it's

00:11:57,870 → 00:12:00,729

STEPHEN PILLING: a spectrum and that we really need to

00:12:00,730 → 00:12:03,189

STEPHEN PILLING: define what is positive masculinity and

00:12:03,190 → 00:12:04,818

STEPHEN PILLING: what is unhealthy.

00:12:04,819 → 00:12:07,079

EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, have you got a

00:12:07,080 → 00:12:08,589

EMILY HARRISON: viewpoint on this?

00:12:08,590 → 00:12:10,209

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think going back to Stephen's point

00:12:10,210 → 00:12:12,529

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about the language, the language is key

00:12:12,530 → 00:12:14,869

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and the language that we use towards

00:12:14,870 → 00:12:16,909

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young boys I think is really, really

00:12:16,910 → 00:12:18,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important.

00:12:18,290 → 00:12:19,689

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Trying to reframe language in a

00:12:19,690 → 00:12:22,169

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: different way for me is important and

00:12:22,170 → 00:12:24,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I've even had debates with others around

00:12:24,490 → 00:12:25,829

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: things that you say to little boys such

00:12:25,830 → 00:12:28,169

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: as "be a brave little soldier".

00:12:28,170 → 00:12:30,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: You know, "don't be a cry-baby".

00:12:30,570 → 00:12:32,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And those messages, although mightn't

00:12:32,290 → 00:12:34,289

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: sound very harmful on face value, if a

00:12:34,290 → 00:12:35,669

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: child takes that and frames that in a

00:12:35,670 → 00:12:38,769

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: certain way that can lead into such—

00:12:38,770 → 00:12:40,274

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: become so destructive later on in life,

00:12:40,275 → 00:12:43,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with young boys afraid to express

00:12:43,410 → 00:12:45,589

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their emotions, to reach out for help to

00:12:45,590 → 00:12:46,969

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the likes of Childline whenever they

00:12:46,970 → 00:12:49,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: need it. And I think we all have a duty

00:12:49,470 → 00:12:52,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to rethink the language

00:12:52,570 → 00:12:54,649

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we use to young boys growing up

00:12:54,650 → 00:12:57,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: today so that they do develop a

00:12:57,750 → 00:12:59,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: more healthy viewpoint of masculinity

00:12:59,470 → 00:13:02,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and that they know that being vulnerable

00:13:02,410 → 00:13:04,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and reaching for help whenever you do

00:13:04,190 → 00:13:06,409

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have difficulties is okay; it's not a

00:13:06,410 → 00:13:07,269

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: bad thing

00:13:07,270 → 00:13:08,889

EMILY HARRISON: Sure, sure.

00:13:08,890 → 00:13:10,929

EMILY HARRISON: When we're talking about those children and

00:13:10,930 → 00:13:14,109

EMILY HARRISON: we're looking at the whole raft of

00:13:14,110 → 00:13:15,809

EMILY HARRISON: forums that are available, particularly

00:13:15,810 → 00:13:18,796

EMILY HARRISON: online, for children at the moment

00:13:18,797 → 00:13:21,889

EMILY HARRISON: — if we put all those together, that is

00:13:21,890 → 00:13:24,449

EMILY HARRISON: pretty much what the 'manosphere' is.

00:13:24,450 → 00:13:27,669

EMILY HARRISON: It's the collection of different forums

00:13:27,670 → 00:13:29,597

EMILY HARRISON: that people are having these conversations

00:13:29,598 → 00:13:32,809

EMILY HARRISON: on and sometimes they are really

00:13:32,810 → 00:13:34,249

EMILY HARRISON: unhealthy.

00:13:34,250 → 00:13:36,244

EMILY HARRISON: Cormac, from a Childline perspective, have

00:13:37,420 → 00:13:40,019

EMILY HARRISON: we seen that come through where we're

00:13:40,020 → 00:13:42,239

EMILY HARRISON: getting young people — boys and girls —

00:13:42,240 → 00:13:45,159

EMILY HARRISON: coming through with their concerns about

00:13:45,160 → 00:13:47,149

EMILY HARRISON: forums and participation?

00:13:47,150 → 00:13:49,709

CORMAC NOLAN: Definitely. And as my colleagues were

00:13:49,710 → 00:13:52,529

CORMAC NOLAN: speaking there, I was just reflecting on the

00:13:52,530 → 00:13:55,469

CORMAC NOLAN: number of influences, external influences,

00:13:55,470 → 00:13:58,190

CORMAC NOLAN: that a young person can be exposed to.

00:13:59,210 → 00:14:01,109

CORMAC NOLAN: Because the online environment is so

00:14:01,110 → 00:14:04,429

CORMAC NOLAN: available, it's there all of the time.

00:14:04,430 → 00:14:07,909

CORMAC NOLAN: And young people can be quite seduced,

00:14:07,910 → 00:14:10,209

CORMAC NOLAN: if you like, or easily influenced into

00:14:10,210 → 00:14:12,379

CORMAC NOLAN: certain environments and certain communities

00:14:12,380 → 00:14:15,739

CORMAC NOLAN: within the online environment

00:14:15,740 → 00:14:18,739

CORMAC NOLAN: that can resonate with them

00:14:18,740 → 00:14:20,859

CORMAC NOLAN: to some degree.

00:14:20,860 → 00:14:22,379

CORMAC NOLAN: Sometimes for children and young people, they

00:14:22,380 → 00:14:24,119

CORMAC NOLAN: tell us when they become part of this and

00:14:24,120 → 00:14:25,739

CORMAC NOLAN: they become involved in conversations, it's

00:14:25,740 → 00:14:27,640

CORMAC NOLAN: difficult to remove themselves from this.

00:14:28,740 → 00:14:30,759

CORMAC NOLAN: And opinions that they develop wouldn't

00:14:30,760 → 00:14:32,359

CORMAC NOLAN: necessarily have been opinions or thoughts

00:14:32,360 → 00:14:35,359

CORMAC NOLAN: that they would normally have held.

00:14:35,360 → 00:14:36,919

CORMAC NOLAN: If you imagine that we have a group of

00:14:36,920 → 00:14:39,659

CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people who maybe are at

00:14:39,660 → 00:14:42,659

CORMAC NOLAN: school together, but whose online activity is

00:14:42,660 → 00:14:44,809

CORMAC NOLAN: similar to what I have described, you can see

00:14:44,810 → 00:14:47,589

CORMAC NOLAN: how this thing perpetuates and how it can

00:14:47,590 → 00:14:50,049

CORMAC NOLAN: grow and how we need a more positive

00:14:50,050 → 00:14:52,809

CORMAC NOLAN: influence for children and young people.

00:14:52,810 → 00:14:55,689

CORMAC NOLAN: The point about language earlier on is that

00:14:55,690 → 00:14:58,569

CORMAC NOLAN: we don't tend to use labels, and if a young

00:14:58,570 → 00:15:01,109

CORMAC NOLAN: person brings a label to us we would very

00:15:01,110 → 00:15:03,829

CORMAC NOLAN: much explore "what does that mean for you,

00:15:03,830 → 00:15:06,289

CORMAC NOLAN: how does that impact on you and how does that

00:15:06,290 → 00:15:09,149

CORMAC NOLAN: play out in your life?" But what I would say

00:15:09,150 → 00:15:12,009

CORMAC NOLAN: is 'toxic' — on its own, not necessarily

00:15:12,010 → 00:15:14,449

CORMAC NOLAN: related to masculinity — but 'toxic' is a

00:15:14,450 → 00:15:16,289

CORMAC NOLAN: word that children and young people frequently

00:15:16,290 → 00:15:18,989

CORMAC NOLAN: use about relationships and friendships.

00:15:18,990 → 00:15:22,209

CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a good understanding that is

00:15:22,210 → 00:15:23,907

CORMAC NOLAN: relevant to children and young people.

00:15:24,990 → 00:15:27,529

CORMAC NOLAN: But in terms of the online environment,

00:15:27,530 → 00:15:30,229

CORMAC NOLAN: absolutely it is hugely influential for

00:15:30,230 → 00:15:32,709

CORMAC NOLAN: children and people and its accessibility we

00:15:32,710 → 00:15:35,389

CORMAC NOLAN: know can be a good thing, but we know it can

00:15:35,390 → 00:15:37,769

CORMAC NOLAN: also be quite a bad thing as well.

00:15:37,770 → 00:15:40,289

EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, a little earlier on you

00:15:40,290 → 00:15:42,429

EMILY HARRISON: talked to us a little bit about your

00:15:42,430 → 00:15:44,369

EMILY HARRISON: counselling work and obviously you've got

00:15:44,370 → 00:15:46,749

EMILY HARRISON: your Helpline work as well.

00:15:46,750 → 00:15:49,869

EMILY HARRISON: With the men that you supported as victims

00:15:49,870 → 00:15:52,945

EMILY HARRISON: of domestic abuse, and those men that

00:15:54,030 → 00:15:55,909

EMILY HARRISON: came to you for counselling services in

00:15:55,910 → 00:15:57,789

EMILY HARRISON: general, were there a lot that came through

00:15:57,790 → 00:16:01,169

EMILY HARRISON: that were fathers? And how did

00:16:01,170 → 00:16:04,219

EMILY HARRISON: the experiences that they were having, have

00:16:04,220 → 00:16:07,279

EMILY HARRISON: an impact on their relationship with their

00:16:07,280 → 00:16:09,779

EMILY HARRISON: children? So, I'm asking more about the

00:16:09,780 → 00:16:12,679

EMILY HARRISON: impact of that relationship and those,

00:16:12,680 → 00:16:16,059

EMILY HARRISON: perhaps, traumas that they'd had.

00:16:16,060 → 00:16:17,859

EMILY HARRISON: How did that affect the relationship with

00:16:17,860 → 00:16:19,119

EMILY HARRISON: the children?

00:16:19,120 → 00:16:21,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever you ask that question, the

00:16:21,380 → 00:16:23,779

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: first thing that comes to mind is most

00:16:23,780 → 00:16:25,819

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: of the men that I work with were

00:16:25,820 → 00:16:27,119

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers.

00:16:27,120 → 00:16:30,659

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And a common theme that I recall was

00:16:30,660 → 00:16:34,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that the children were

00:16:34,060 → 00:16:36,339

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: frequently encouraged to deride their

00:16:36,340 → 00:16:38,239

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers and see them as being less than

00:16:38,240 → 00:16:41,019

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: men, being weak, being feeble; not being

00:16:41,020 → 00:16:43,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: real men because they weren't able to

00:16:43,380 → 00:16:46,539

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: live to the typical male role model

00:16:46,540 → 00:16:49,429

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in the house with the more dominant

00:16:49,430 → 00:16:50,865

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: female being in the home.

00:16:50,866 → 00:16:53,989

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Then you had same-sex couples that

00:16:53,990 → 00:16:55,729

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: were — you know, a male presenting from

00:16:55,730 → 00:16:59,325

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: a same-sex couple — who, again,

00:16:59,326 → 00:17:01,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reaching out for help, they were worried

00:17:01,190 → 00:17:03,129

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they were going to be judged and

00:17:03,130 → 00:17:05,184

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: actually being seen as less than men

00:17:06,290 → 00:17:08,209

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for a double reason; because they'd let

00:17:08,210 → 00:17:10,249

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: this happen to them, because their

00:17:10,250 → 00:17:12,489

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship was seen as being wrong in

00:17:12,490 → 00:17:14,328

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the first place by some of their family.

00:17:14,329 → 00:17:15,789

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So then for this to happen within that

00:17:15,790 → 00:17:17,939

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship, they were often told "well

00:17:17,940 → 00:17:19,219

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you see, you see".

00:17:19,220 → 00:17:22,338

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So I think for men, it

00:17:22,339 → 00:17:23,648

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: was the weakness.

00:17:23,649 → 00:17:26,659

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The weakness; they really felt that

00:17:26,660 → 00:17:28,279

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their masculinity had been robbed, and

00:17:28,280 → 00:17:29,879

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you could really see that?

00:17:29,880 → 00:17:31,679

EMILY HARRISON: That's really interesting, really

00:17:31,680 → 00:17:32,939

EMILY HARRISON: interesting.

00:17:32,940 → 00:17:34,699

EMILY HARRISON: You've just touched on something else there

00:17:34,700 → 00:17:36,399

EMILY HARRISON: that I want us to have a little bit of a

00:17:36,400 → 00:17:38,639

EMILY HARRISON: discussion about as a group really, so feel

00:17:38,640 → 00:17:40,420

EMILY HARRISON: free to chip in.

00:17:40,421 → 00:17:43,979

EMILY HARRISON: Let's talk about role modelling.

00:17:43,980 → 00:17:47,159

EMILY HARRISON: So what do you see as effective

00:17:47,160 → 00:17:49,439

EMILY HARRISON: role modelling? What does that look like?

00:17:49,440 → 00:17:50,939

EMILY HARRISON: What does it look like to you?

00:17:52,160 → 00:17:53,273

EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, do you want to start us off?

00:17:54,290 → 00:17:57,329

STEPHEN PILLING: From a personal perspective, I'm a

00:17:57,330 → 00:18:00,129

STEPHEN PILLING: father now. I'm raising a little boy who

00:18:00,130 → 00:18:03,189

STEPHEN PILLING: is now 11 years old and

00:18:03,190 → 00:18:06,169

STEPHEN PILLING: he's entering in this world where he's

00:18:06,170 → 00:18:09,729

STEPHEN PILLING: going to be exposed to social media.

00:18:09,730 → 00:18:12,489

STEPHEN PILLING: He's going be exposed to other opinions

00:18:12,490 → 00:18:15,569

STEPHEN PILLING: outside the family network and

00:18:15,570 → 00:18:17,389

STEPHEN PILLING: he is going to need to make his own

00:18:17,390 → 00:18:20,489

STEPHEN PILLING: decisions in life as a young person.

00:18:20,490 → 00:18:23,449

STEPHEN PILLING: So my aim as a parent

00:18:23,450 → 00:18:26,569

STEPHEN PILLING: in regards to role modelling is — where

00:18:26,570 → 00:18:29,709

STEPHEN PILLING: my primary focus is — is trying to

00:18:29,710 → 00:18:32,663

STEPHEN PILLING: develop an understanding in regards

00:18:32,664 → 00:18:35,649

STEPHEN PILLING: to defining values and what

00:18:35,650 → 00:18:38,589

STEPHEN PILLING: values are. And the reason that I focus on

00:18:38,590 → 00:18:41,769

STEPHEN PILLING: that so much is that my hope

00:18:41,770 → 00:18:44,969

STEPHEN PILLING: is that if my child is

00:18:44,970 → 00:18:48,029

STEPHEN PILLING: values-led in life, that will

00:18:48,030 → 00:18:50,589

STEPHEN PILLING: equip him in regards to making good

00:18:50,590 → 00:18:53,689

STEPHEN PILLING: choices and good decisions in life and in

00:18:53,690 → 00:18:55,529

STEPHEN PILLING: relationships in the future.

00:18:55,530 → 00:18:58,489

STEPHEN PILLING: And I think where the struggle is right

00:18:58,490 → 00:19:01,229

STEPHEN PILLING: now — and it was something I didn't learn

00:19:01,230 → 00:19:04,388

STEPHEN PILLING: until into my early 20s

00:19:04,389 → 00:19:07,569

STEPHEN PILLING: — although that I did

00:19:07,570 → 00:19:10,789

STEPHEN PILLING: have a value and belief base, I couldn't

00:19:10,790 → 00:19:12,849

STEPHEN PILLING: clearly define it.

00:19:12,850 → 00:19:15,309

STEPHEN PILLING: I got help with that and I think that's

00:19:15,310 → 00:19:17,469

STEPHEN PILLING: where we need to aim our focus and

00:19:17,470 → 00:19:20,469

STEPHEN PILLING: modelling in regards to children

00:19:20,470 → 00:19:23,439

STEPHEN PILLING: and people; getting them

00:19:23,440 → 00:19:26,719

STEPHEN PILLING: to understand what a value is and

00:19:26,720 → 00:19:28,879

STEPHEN PILLING: defining their values, encouraging them

00:19:28,880 → 00:19:30,679

STEPHEN PILLING: and helping them to define their values

00:19:30,680 → 00:19:32,369

STEPHEN PILLING: moving forward.

00:19:32,370 → 00:19:34,349

EMILY HARRISON: I suppose it's developing that moral

00:19:34,350 → 00:19:35,820

EMILY HARRISON: compass as well, isn't it, to be

00:19:37,370 → 00:19:38,390

EMILY HARRISON: able to carry through.

00:19:39,610 → 00:19:42,809

EMILY HARRISON: Yeah. Cormac, did you have a thought

00:19:42,810 → 00:19:43,899

EMILY HARRISON: in mind there?

00:19:43,900 → 00:19:46,859

CORMAC NOLAN: I guess my principle thought really is

00:19:46,860 → 00:19:49,279

CORMAC NOLAN: that, for children and young people, we have

00:19:49,280 → 00:19:51,219

CORMAC NOLAN: to be mindful that they're still growing,

00:19:51,220 → 00:19:52,659

CORMAC NOLAN: they're still developing, they are still trying

00:19:52,660 → 00:19:56,219

CORMAC NOLAN: to find who they are, "where do I fit in,

00:19:56,220 → 00:19:59,339

CORMAC NOLAN: what type of person am I?" So they're

00:19:59,340 → 00:20:02,379

CORMAC NOLAN: already in a time of development but also a

00:20:02,380 → 00:20:05,379

CORMAC NOLAN: time of confusion — throw in puberty just to

00:20:05,380 → 00:20:07,359

CORMAC NOLAN: confuse things even more.

00:20:07,360 → 00:20:09,479

CORMAC NOLAN: And I think— I mean, I totally agree with

00:20:09,480 → 00:20:11,099

CORMAC NOLAN: what Stephen has said, and I probably would

00:20:11,100 → 00:20:14,119

CORMAC NOLAN: add to that: that as adults, we need to

00:20:14,120 → 00:20:16,919

CORMAC NOLAN: be very mindful of our behaviour and how our

00:20:16,920 → 00:20:19,079

CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour can influence children and young

00:20:19,080 → 00:20:22,179

CORMAC NOLAN: people. It's not as black and white as right

00:20:22,180 → 00:20:24,339

CORMAC NOLAN: and wrong — it kind of is, but everybody's

00:20:24,340 → 00:20:26,259

CORMAC NOLAN: right and everybody's wrong is slightly

00:20:26,260 → 00:20:27,260

CORMAC NOLAN: different.

00:20:28,200 → 00:20:30,519

CORMAC NOLAN: We should endeavour to be positive role

00:20:30,520 → 00:20:32,659

CORMAC NOLAN: models, to behave in a way that we would like

00:20:32,660 → 00:20:34,559

CORMAC NOLAN: to see other children and young people,

00:20:34,560 → 00:20:38,139

CORMAC NOLAN: including our own, behave. To be respectful

00:20:38,140 → 00:20:39,479

CORMAC NOLAN: to other people.

00:20:39,480 → 00:20:41,199

CORMAC NOLAN: And I think we can keep it simple.

00:20:41,200 → 00:20:43,059

CORMAC NOLAN: It doesn't have to be complex, but I think it

00:20:43,060 → 00:20:45,239

CORMAC NOLAN: needs to be consistent and that's sometimes

00:20:45,240 → 00:20:47,059

CORMAC NOLAN: where it can be difficult.

00:20:47,060 → 00:20:49,679

CORMAC NOLAN: But to have a bit of understanding and a bit

00:20:49,680 → 00:20:51,849

CORMAC NOLAN: sympathy for how difficult it is growing up.

00:20:51,850 → 00:20:54,259

CORMAC NOLAN: We all know, we've been there, and it's even

00:20:54,260 → 00:20:57,259

CORMAC NOLAN: more difficult now. And to be aware of

00:20:57,260 → 00:21:00,419

CORMAC NOLAN: the external influences and have a curiosity

00:21:00,420 → 00:21:03,699

CORMAC NOLAN: particularly about online life, and

00:21:03,700 → 00:21:06,279

CORMAC NOLAN: online and external activity; a healthy

00:21:06,280 → 00:21:09,119

CORMAC NOLAN: curiosity and interest that your child will

00:21:09,120 → 00:21:10,989

CORMAC NOLAN: respond positively too.

00:21:10,990 → 00:21:12,309

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Reflecting on both what Stephen and

00:21:12,310 → 00:21:15,149

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac have said, I do see positives

00:21:15,150 → 00:21:17,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: taking place. I'm aware of one

00:21:17,190 → 00:21:19,129

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: organisation based in Belfast.

00:21:19,130 → 00:21:20,869

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They try and incorporate what both

00:21:20,870 → 00:21:23,749

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Stephen and Cormac have talked about.

00:21:23,750 → 00:21:25,149

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They go out and they talk to young men

00:21:25,150 → 00:21:26,637

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in schools, young boys in schools.

00:21:28,010 → 00:21:30,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And they, rather than...

00:21:30,570 → 00:21:32,469

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever these views come up, these

00:21:32,470 → 00:21:34,209

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: toxic views come up, these unhealthy

00:21:34,210 → 00:21:37,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: views, rather than saying,

00:21:37,230 → 00:21:39,009

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "you're wrong, that's bad, you shouldn't

00:21:39,010 → 00:21:41,378

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: be doing that", they explore.

00:21:41,379 → 00:21:42,999

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They explore where those viewpoints have

00:21:43,000 → 00:21:44,759

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: come from. They explore to get an

00:21:44,760 → 00:21:47,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: understanding of what that child or

00:21:47,380 → 00:21:49,119

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young person's life has been like to

00:21:49,120 → 00:21:50,120

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them to that point.

00:21:51,080 → 00:21:52,459

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think it's that engagement that's really

00:21:52,460 → 00:21:55,039

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important. That we continue to engage,

00:21:55,040 → 00:21:56,939

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we don't label someone a certain

00:21:56,940 → 00:21:58,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: way because they have a viewpoint. We

00:21:58,300 → 00:21:59,919

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: don't know what their history has been.

00:21:59,920 → 00:22:01,299

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: We don't know what's led them to the

00:22:01,300 → 00:22:03,059

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: point. But we can help them move

00:22:03,060 → 00:22:05,639

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, gain an understanding of what's

00:22:05,640 → 00:22:08,079

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them there and hopefully help them

00:22:08,080 → 00:22:10,379

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to develop more healthy viewpoints by

00:22:10,380 → 00:22:12,929

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging — gently challenging and, as

00:22:12,930 → 00:22:15,229

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac said earlier on, at their pace.

00:22:15,230 → 00:22:18,189

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: That work is taking place because I do

00:22:18,190 → 00:22:19,569

ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: see it happening and it gives me hope.

00:22:20,590 → 00:22:22,329

EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's about

00:22:22,330 → 00:22:24,189

EMILY HARRISON: keeping the conversation going as well,

00:22:24,190 → 00:22:26,309

EMILY HARRISON: isn't it? Because we know that we need to

00:22:26,310 → 00:22:29,289

EMILY HARRISON: have services accessible for people who are

00:22:29,290 → 00:22:31,589

EMILY HARRISON: identifying that maybe this is something

00:22:31,590 → 00:22:33,449

EMILY HARRISON: that they'd like to talk about.

00:22:33,450 → 00:22:35,449

EMILY HARRISON: Maybe this is something they'd like to

00:22:35,450 → 00:22:37,969

EMILY HARRISON: explore their own feelings on, which is

00:22:37,970 → 00:22:39,489

EMILY HARRISON: obviously something that we absolutely

00:22:39,490 → 00:22:40,490

EMILY HARRISON: encourage.

00:22:41,490 → 00:22:44,469

EMILY HARRISON: If you need to, give the NSPCC Helpline a

00:22:44,470 → 00:22:47,309

EMILY HARRISON: call: 08 08 800 5000 is the number for

00:22:47,310 → 00:22:50,449

EMILY HARRISON: that. We also have, of course,

00:22:50,450 → 00:22:53,929

EMILY HARRISON: Childline, who we actively encourage

00:22:53,930 → 00:22:56,309

EMILY HARRISON: children that would like to talk through

00:22:56,310 → 00:22:59,209

EMILY HARRISON: what they're feeling, particularly if they

00:22:59,210 → 00:23:01,909

EMILY HARRISON: are feeling quite vulnerable around this

00:23:01,910 → 00:23:03,189

EMILY HARRISON: topic as well.

00:23:03,190 → 00:23:07,709

EMILY HARRISON: And that is 0800 1111.

00:23:07,710 → 00:23:10,309

EMILY HARRISON: So we do actively encourage people to give

00:23:10,310 → 00:23:12,729

EMILY HARRISON: us a call and we can help you to talk

00:23:12,730 → 00:23:14,849

EMILY HARRISON: through those concerns.

00:23:14,850 → 00:23:17,129

EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, Cormac and Stephen, thank you very,

00:23:17,130 → 00:23:18,949

EMILY HARRISON: very much for your time.

00:23:18,950 → 00:23:21,569

EMILY HARRISON: It's been a really good discussion and

00:23:21,570 → 00:23:23,949

EMILY HARRISON: hopefully it'll be one that we will

00:23:23,950 → 00:23:26,289

EMILY HARRISON: continue in the office and will continue to

00:23:26,290 → 00:23:28,429

EMILY HARRISON: talk about in our day-to-day business.

00:23:28,430 → 00:23:31,009

EMILY HARRISON: Thank you. And you've been listening to the

00:23:31,010 → 00:23:32,750

EMILY HARRISON: NSPCC Learning Podcast.

00:23:37,110 → 00:23:40,869

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast.

00:23:40,870 → 00:23:43,629

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

00:23:43,630 → 00:23:46,349

OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

00:23:46,350 → 00:23:48,489

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

00:23:48,490 → 00:23:50,489

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

00:23:50,490 → 00:23:53,389

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

00:23:53,390 → 00:23:56,809

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our website

00:23:56,810 → 00:24:00,862

OUTRO: for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.

Sorry, your browser isn't supported.

Page load failed