1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,299 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we 2 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:08,959 INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,419 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:15,459 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:18,179 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:21,099 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,330 --> 00:00:27,309 EMILY HARRISON: Hi, welcome to the NSPCC Learning 8 00:00:27,310 --> 00:00:30,129 EMILY HARRISON: podcast. My name's Emily, I'm a Domestic 9 00:00:30,130 --> 00:00:32,329 EMILY HARRISON: Abuse Practice Advisor working mainly on 10 00:00:32,330 --> 00:00:35,229 EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline with the NSPCC. 11 00:00:35,230 --> 00:00:37,089 EMILY HARRISON: Today we're here to talk about a few topics 12 00:00:37,090 --> 00:00:39,849 EMILY HARRISON: that show up on the Helpline, Childline and 13 00:00:39,850 --> 00:00:41,989 EMILY HARRISON: the wider organisation, and indeed in 14 00:00:41,990 --> 00:00:43,549 EMILY HARRISON: society as well. 15 00:00:43,550 --> 00:00:45,309 EMILY HARRISON: Discussions today are focusing on male 16 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:47,589 EMILY HARRISON: experiences of domestic abuse and wider 17 00:00:47,590 --> 00:00:51,179 EMILY HARRISON: harms, harmful masculinity, and also 18 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:52,899 EMILY HARRISON: gives thought to how men can be allies for 19 00:00:52,900 --> 00:00:54,539 EMILY HARRISON: women and children when it comes to looking 20 00:00:54,540 --> 00:00:56,819 EMILY HARRISON: at alternative behaviours and the work that 21 00:00:56,820 --> 00:00:58,239 EMILY HARRISON: we're involved with. 22 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,309 EMILY HARRISON: I'm joined today by Adrian. 23 00:01:00,310 --> 00:01:01,629 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, my name is Adrian. 24 00:01:01,630 --> 00:01:04,488 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm a Practice Manager with the NSPCC 25 00:01:04,489 --> 00:01:06,849 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Helpline. I am a counsellor by 26 00:01:06,850 --> 00:01:10,229 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: profession and I continue to 27 00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:12,269 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: deliver counselling to young people 28 00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:13,829 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: outside the organisation one day a week. 29 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:14,830 EMILY HARRISON: Stephen. 30 00:01:15,070 --> 00:01:17,329 STEPHEN PILLING: Hi, my name is Stephen and I'm a 31 00:01:17,330 --> 00:01:18,829 STEPHEN PILLING: practitioner on the Helpline. 32 00:01:18,830 --> 00:01:21,409 STEPHEN PILLING: I've done this role for around five years. 33 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:23,189 STEPHEN PILLING: I have a social work background, 34 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:26,529 STEPHEN PILLING: qualifying in 2009, and much of 35 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:29,549 STEPHEN PILLING: my work and career has been working in 36 00:01:29,550 --> 00:01:31,889 STEPHEN PILLING: the voluntary sector, supporting children 37 00:01:31,890 --> 00:01:33,689 STEPHEN PILLING: and their families. 38 00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:35,029 EMILY HARRISON: And Cormac. 39 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:37,569 CORMAC NOLAN: My name is Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the 40 00:01:37,570 --> 00:01:39,249 CORMAC NOLAN: Service Heads in Childline. 41 00:01:39,250 --> 00:01:41,769 CORMAC NOLAN: That means that I have responsibilities for 42 00:01:41,770 --> 00:01:44,589 CORMAC NOLAN: some of our Childline bases and the live 43 00:01:44,590 --> 00:01:46,329 CORMAC NOLAN: service that we offer. But in addition to 44 00:01:46,330 --> 00:01:49,309 CORMAC NOLAN: that, I'm also responsible for the Childline 45 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:51,559 CORMAC NOLAN: website and everything that goes on there. 46 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,259 EMILY HARRISON: Welcome, welcome and thank you for taking 47 00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:55,819 EMILY HARRISON: part. I do appreciate you giving up your 48 00:01:55,820 --> 00:01:58,179 EMILY HARRISON: time to be able to get this information out 49 00:01:58,180 --> 00:02:00,179 EMILY HARRISON: there and to have these discussions. 50 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:02,059 EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, if I can just start with you. 51 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,239 EMILY HARRISON: You've got a lot of experience working with 52 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,959 EMILY HARRISON: men in a counselling setting. 53 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,359 EMILY HARRISON: Can you tell us just a little bit about 54 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:10,698 EMILY HARRISON: what that looked like to you? 55 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:12,459 EMILY HARRISON: So for example, was there a specific 56 00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:15,459 EMILY HARRISON: personality type that came through and 57 00:02:15,460 --> 00:02:18,729 EMILY HARRISON: what did their presentation look like? 58 00:02:18,730 --> 00:02:21,009 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Well, before I was counselling with 59 00:02:21,010 --> 00:02:23,949 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young people as I am now, I did work for 60 00:02:23,950 --> 00:02:25,489 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: an organisation working with male 61 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:26,889 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: survivors of domestic abuse. 62 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:29,969 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The common presentation you would see 63 00:02:29,970 --> 00:02:32,729 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: would be men who were afraid to talk 64 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:35,309 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about their experiences, men that felt 65 00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:36,909 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they just would not be believed, 66 00:02:38,490 --> 00:02:40,069 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and men who... 67 00:02:40,070 --> 00:02:43,369 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, they had gone through various 68 00:02:43,370 --> 00:02:45,749 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: legal process, things like that, where 69 00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:46,926 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the courts just hadn't believed them. 70 00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:50,489 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Unfortunately, you know, it has 71 00:02:50,490 --> 00:02:52,589 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: improved, but look, whenever I first 72 00:02:52,590 --> 00:02:54,789 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: started out in this work — in maybe 2010, 73 00:02:54,790 --> 00:02:57,889 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: 2011 — it was very challenging for men. 74 00:02:57,890 --> 00:02:59,249 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: It still is very challenging for men to come 75 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:00,649 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, but it was extremely 76 00:03:00,650 --> 00:03:02,369 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging back then. 77 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:03,669 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The flip side of that was I also worked 78 00:03:03,670 --> 00:03:05,369 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with male perpetrators of domestic 79 00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:08,449 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: abuse. Their presentations were very 80 00:03:08,450 --> 00:03:11,009 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging. You would have lots of 81 00:03:11,010 --> 00:03:13,009 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: people who would come because it was 82 00:03:13,010 --> 00:03:14,489 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: court ordered. For example, if they 83 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:16,249 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: wanted to see their children, they had to 84 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:17,749 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: receive anger management or they had to 85 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:19,369 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: go to counselling in relation to what 86 00:03:19,370 --> 00:03:22,229 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: they had done. And the typical 87 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:24,109 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: presentation really was them trying to 88 00:03:24,110 --> 00:03:25,630 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: groom me, to become their best mate. 89 00:03:26,730 --> 00:03:28,929 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They thought that I would somehow, 90 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:31,729 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: because I was a man, take to their story 91 00:03:31,730 --> 00:03:35,329 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and probably, I don't know, 92 00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:38,529 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: collude with them and say 93 00:03:38,530 --> 00:03:40,229 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "oh yeah, yeah, I understand what it is, 94 00:03:40,230 --> 00:03:41,569 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that's terrible, that's terrible, that's 95 00:03:41,570 --> 00:03:43,349 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: terrible." You know, at the start you 96 00:03:43,350 --> 00:03:45,299 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have to go along with it a little bit to get 97 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:46,979 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: them to kind of trust you. 98 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:49,099 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And then it's about working and 99 00:03:49,100 --> 00:03:50,958 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: stripping away and challenging their 100 00:03:50,959 --> 00:03:53,059 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviours, sometimes in a way that they 101 00:03:53,060 --> 00:03:55,059 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: find very, very challenging. 102 00:03:55,060 --> 00:03:58,699 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I remember having one client who was 103 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:00,059 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raising his voice going, "I'm not angry, 104 00:04:00,060 --> 00:04:02,019 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm not angry, I'm not angry." And I 105 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:03,299 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raised my voice back and said, "you're 106 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:05,659 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: not angry, you're not angry, you're not angry." Then 107 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:08,679 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: he sat back in his chair and I said 108 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,719 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to him, "I wonder how your child 109 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,339 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: feels whenever they see you present like 110 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:16,159 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that." What I was trying to do was 111 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,458 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reflect back; you know, it's bad enough 112 00:04:17,459 --> 00:04:18,838 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for an adult to be faced with that 113 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,898 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviour, but for a child to be faced 114 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:21,899 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with that behaviour. 115 00:04:22,860 --> 00:04:24,639 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So, yeah, I got to see both sides of it, 116 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,819 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: both sides: of the male perpetrator and 117 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:27,969 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the male survivor. 118 00:04:27,970 --> 00:04:30,609 EMILY HARRISON: It must have been quite a time to work as 119 00:04:30,610 --> 00:04:33,009 EMILY HARRISON: well, because we say that sometimes, you 120 00:04:33,010 --> 00:04:34,409 EMILY HARRISON: know, that they're getting better and that 121 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:36,689 EMILY HARRISON: we've got more understanding and that we're 122 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:38,149 EMILY HARRISON: getting better equipped to deal with 123 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:40,509 EMILY HARRISON: things. But everything changes just so 124 00:04:40,510 --> 00:04:42,229 EMILY HARRISON: quickly, doesn't it? 125 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:44,329 EMILY HARRISON: These things, they do go around in circles 126 00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:47,449 EMILY HARRISON: and cycles. But we also get added 127 00:04:47,450 --> 00:04:50,889 EMILY HARRISON: layers of difficulty in terms of barriers, 128 00:04:50,890 --> 00:04:53,609 EMILY HARRISON: in terms of what goes on in society as 129 00:04:53,610 --> 00:04:56,809 EMILY HARRISON: well, don't we? Stephen, have you 130 00:04:56,810 --> 00:04:59,699 EMILY HARRISON: had any contacts on the Helpline where 131 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,499 EMILY HARRISON: you've been able to identify something 132 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:03,359 EMILY HARRISON: similar? 133 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,359 STEPHEN PILLING: Yes, certainly on the Helpline 134 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,479 STEPHEN PILLING: we get calls from perpetrators of 135 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,759 STEPHEN PILLING: abuse and it's trying to recognise 136 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,779 STEPHEN PILLING: that they are perpetrators of the abuse, 137 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:17,599 STEPHEN PILLING: which can be very, very difficult at 138 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,759 STEPHEN PILLING: times. People can be very convincing 139 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,779 STEPHEN PILLING: in what they say. 140 00:05:22,780 --> 00:05:25,079 STEPHEN PILLING: We do get perpetrators who call, but we 141 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,259 STEPHEN PILLING: also get men who are experiencing abuse as 142 00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:30,979 STEPHEN PILLING: well and the majority of them are fathers. 143 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:34,079 STEPHEN PILLING: And because parenthood is so complex 144 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,719 STEPHEN PILLING: that, you know, it's often difficult for 145 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,099 STEPHEN PILLING: men — what I'm finding is that it's 146 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:42,179 STEPHEN PILLING: difficult for men to define their role as 147 00:05:42,180 --> 00:05:44,239 STEPHEN PILLING: a parent. We have to listen and obviously 148 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,119 STEPHEN PILLING: validate their concerns, but at the same 149 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,659 STEPHEN PILLING: time we also maybe need to signpost them 150 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:52,819 STEPHEN PILLING: to specialised services who 151 00:05:52,820 --> 00:05:55,839 STEPHEN PILLING: could explore and help them within 152 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:58,499 STEPHEN PILLING: their definition of concluding if they've 153 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:00,999 STEPHEN PILLING: been experiencing domestic abuse. 154 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,199 STEPHEN PILLING: Because I think if you're defining the 155 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,359 STEPHEN PILLING: problem initially, it's easier for any 156 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,899 STEPHEN PILLING: individual to work towards solutions. 157 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,239 STEPHEN PILLING: We don't necessarily know the long-term 158 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,699 STEPHEN PILLING: outcomes. So we get a snapshot and we're 159 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:19,079 STEPHEN PILLING: trying to give certain advice in 160 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,469 STEPHEN PILLING: a very time-limited way. 161 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:24,729 EMILY HARRISON: I think those outcomes nationally, 162 00:06:24,730 --> 00:06:27,169 EMILY HARRISON: not just on the Helpline, but nationally 163 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:30,269 EMILY HARRISON: with other organisations and the 164 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:33,089 EMILY HARRISON: statutory framework as well, do point to 165 00:06:33,090 --> 00:06:35,149 EMILY HARRISON: that early intervention, early 166 00:06:35,150 --> 00:06:38,949 EMILY HARRISON: identification of those pitfalls, 167 00:06:38,950 --> 00:06:40,489 EMILY HARRISON: problems, dilemmas, barriers. 168 00:06:40,490 --> 00:06:42,969 EMILY HARRISON: The earlier that we can catch those, the 169 00:06:42,970 --> 00:06:45,129 EMILY HARRISON: better the outcome for the child. 170 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:47,609 EMILY HARRISON: What the Helpline does in terms of giving 171 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:51,069 EMILY HARRISON: people that opportunity to talk through 172 00:06:51,070 --> 00:06:54,589 EMILY HARRISON: the situation, the scenario, what they're 173 00:06:54,590 --> 00:06:56,849 EMILY HARRISON: experiencing, and their child protection 174 00:06:56,850 --> 00:06:59,009 EMILY HARRISON: concerns and their safeguarding concerns, 175 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:02,069 EMILY HARRISON: or identification of those, is 176 00:07:02,070 --> 00:07:04,569 EMILY HARRISON: really valuable because we can give that 177 00:07:04,570 --> 00:07:08,309 EMILY HARRISON: advice over the phone and email when it's 178 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:09,589 EMILY HARRISON: not appropriate to talk on the phone as 179 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:12,829 EMILY HARRISON: well. Cormac, your experiences come 180 00:07:12,830 --> 00:07:15,409 EMILY HARRISON: from a slightly different angle — and 181 00:07:15,410 --> 00:07:18,289 EMILY HARRISON: that's because you're predominantly with 182 00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:20,549 EMILY HARRISON: Childline — which of course is the child 183 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:21,929 EMILY HARRISON: perspective. 184 00:07:21,930 --> 00:07:25,249 EMILY HARRISON: So are there any points that 185 00:07:25,250 --> 00:07:28,299 EMILY HARRISON: you'd like to raise on the subject? 186 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:30,159 CORMAC NOLAN: I think just following on from what Stephen 187 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,459 CORMAC NOLAN: said, there are definitely parallels in 188 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:35,439 CORMAC NOLAN: Childline alongside what Stephen has 189 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,619 CORMAC NOLAN: been saying. What we find in Childline 190 00:07:38,620 --> 00:07:41,639 CORMAC NOLAN: is a lot of young people, young males will 191 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,619 CORMAC NOLAN: come to us knowing that something's 192 00:07:44,620 --> 00:07:46,819 CORMAC NOLAN: not quite right, something doesn't feel right 193 00:07:46,820 --> 00:07:48,999 CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of their experience or indeed on 194 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,439 CORMAC NOLAN: their own behaviour, but they can't quite pin 195 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,579 CORMAC NOLAN: it down. They certainly often don't have a 196 00:07:53,580 --> 00:07:56,539 CORMAC NOLAN: name for it, but something doesn't feel right 197 00:07:56,540 --> 00:07:58,949 CORMAC NOLAN: and it's impacting on the people around them 198 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:00,689 CORMAC NOLAN: or on themselves. 199 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:02,589 CORMAC NOLAN: There maybe — you know, we work with children 200 00:08:02,590 --> 00:08:04,749 CORMAC NOLAN: and young people up to the age of 19 — so 201 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:07,509 CORMAC NOLAN: there can be babies and children involved in 202 00:08:07,510 --> 00:08:09,509 CORMAC NOLAN: these domestic situations. 203 00:08:09,510 --> 00:08:11,229 CORMAC NOLAN: Children and young people, of course, can be 204 00:08:11,230 --> 00:08:13,409 CORMAC NOLAN: witnesses to domestic abuse, and of course 205 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:15,149 CORMAC NOLAN: that makes — in the eyes of the law — that 206 00:08:15,150 --> 00:08:18,109 CORMAC NOLAN: makes them victims of that abuse as well. 207 00:08:18,110 --> 00:08:21,129 CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a huge amount to unpick for 208 00:08:21,130 --> 00:08:23,069 CORMAC NOLAN: young males, particularly, and we know 209 00:08:23,070 --> 00:08:25,429 CORMAC NOLAN: historically it's much more difficult for 210 00:08:25,430 --> 00:08:27,289 CORMAC NOLAN: young males to come forward, acknowledge that 211 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:29,009 CORMAC NOLAN: there's a problem and reach out and seek 212 00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:32,069 CORMAC NOLAN: help. That's our experience over several 213 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:34,808 CORMAC NOLAN: years. I feel as though that to some degree 214 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:36,569 CORMAC NOLAN: that's changing. 215 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:38,089 CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the key things that we try to do 216 00:08:38,090 --> 00:08:39,788 CORMAC NOLAN: with children and young people when they come 217 00:08:39,789 --> 00:08:41,510 CORMAC NOLAN: through is really work at their pace; help 218 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:44,689 CORMAC NOLAN: them to feel comfortable talking to someone 219 00:08:44,690 --> 00:08:46,609 CORMAC NOLAN: about what can be a really challenging issue. 220 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:49,369 CORMAC NOLAN: And we're always very mindful of what it has 221 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:51,609 CORMAC NOLAN: taken for a young person, a young male, to 222 00:08:51,610 --> 00:08:53,189 CORMAC NOLAN: come through and talk to us in the first 223 00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:54,949 CORMAC NOLAN: instance. There's been a lot of thought, a 224 00:08:54,950 --> 00:08:56,909 CORMAC NOLAN: lot of preparation, probably a lot of soul 225 00:08:56,910 --> 00:08:59,249 CORMAC NOLAN: searching, because it can be either an 226 00:08:59,250 --> 00:09:01,089 CORMAC NOLAN: admission that they've done something wrong, 227 00:09:01,090 --> 00:09:02,489 CORMAC NOLAN: or they feel that they've done something wrong, 228 00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:04,429 CORMAC NOLAN: or that something's wrong in their life and 229 00:09:04,430 --> 00:09:05,430 CORMAC NOLAN: around them. 230 00:09:06,190 --> 00:09:08,149 EMILY HARRISON: We've just put this into the context of 231 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:09,769 EMILY HARRISON: domestic abuse. 232 00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:12,809 EMILY HARRISON: Let's try and broaden that 233 00:09:12,810 --> 00:09:16,029 EMILY HARRISON: thinking for a second and think about abuse 234 00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:19,809 EMILY HARRISON: in more general terms as well. 235 00:09:19,810 --> 00:09:22,269 EMILY HARRISON: More recently we've heard some different 236 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:23,749 EMILY HARRISON: words being used. 237 00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:27,289 EMILY HARRISON: Some of those words might be 'manosphere', 238 00:09:27,290 --> 00:09:29,769 EMILY HARRISON: 'toxic masculinity', 'patriarchy', 239 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:32,469 EMILY HARRISON: 'misogyny'. These words are coming through 240 00:09:32,470 --> 00:09:33,793 EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline, they're coming through Childline, 241 00:09:34,470 --> 00:09:36,709 EMILY HARRISON: and we need to explore what those words 242 00:09:36,710 --> 00:09:39,469 EMILY HARRISON: mean a little bit, I think, because the 243 00:09:39,470 --> 00:09:41,369 EMILY HARRISON: word toxic isn't really exploring the 244 00:09:41,370 --> 00:09:44,449 EMILY HARRISON: concern, it's not explaining what 245 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:46,129 EMILY HARRISON: is actually going on. 246 00:09:46,130 --> 00:09:49,189 EMILY HARRISON: We're tending to try and, rather than 247 00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:51,209 EMILY HARRISON: use a label, use that experience. 248 00:09:51,210 --> 00:09:53,889 EMILY HARRISON: So it might be 'unhealthy masculinity'. 249 00:09:53,890 --> 00:09:56,489 EMILY HARRISON: It might be 'extreme masculinity'. 250 00:09:56,490 --> 00:09:58,209 EMILY HARRISON: And of course, when we talk about that 251 00:09:58,210 --> 00:10:00,189 EMILY HARRISON: masculinity, we're not actually limiting 252 00:10:00,190 --> 00:10:02,110 EMILY HARRISON: that just to men or males, because 253 00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:05,889 EMILY HARRISON: that can be present within females, 254 00:10:05,890 --> 00:10:07,929 EMILY HARRISON: non-binary and trans as well. 255 00:10:07,930 --> 00:10:10,889 EMILY HARRISON: So it is looking very broadly at 256 00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:14,629 EMILY HARRISON: those terms and at those experiences. 257 00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:16,249 EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, if I could start with you on this 258 00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:18,789 EMILY HARRISON: one, is there anything coming to your 259 00:10:18,790 --> 00:10:20,609 EMILY HARRISON: sphere that you think, ah, that is 260 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:22,269 EMILY HARRISON: reminding me of this? 261 00:10:22,270 --> 00:10:23,709 EMILY HARRISON: Would you like to tell us a little bit about 262 00:10:23,710 --> 00:10:24,319 EMILY HARRISON: it? 263 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,239 STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose there's nothing springing to 264 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,819 STEPHEN PILLING: mind directly from the Helpline because we 265 00:10:28,820 --> 00:10:30,543 STEPHEN PILLING: deal with so many cases day-to-day. 266 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,499 STEPHEN PILLING: It's very hard to pinpoint one. 267 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,879 STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose we're having this debate right 268 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,099 STEPHEN PILLING: now in regards to framing, using 269 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:43,599 STEPHEN PILLING: the right language and defining 270 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,219 STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity as a whole, you know, 271 00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:50,669 STEPHEN PILLING: and we're all aware of culture 272 00:10:50,670 --> 00:10:52,014 STEPHEN PILLING: wars that are going on at the moment — language 273 00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:57,209 STEPHEN PILLING: is so important and it's important to get 274 00:10:57,210 --> 00:10:58,579 STEPHEN PILLING: a definition correct. 275 00:10:59,630 --> 00:11:02,889 STEPHEN PILLING: I think from what I'm picking up is that, 276 00:11:02,890 --> 00:11:05,529 STEPHEN PILLING: if we were to use the term 'toxic 277 00:11:05,530 --> 00:11:08,569 STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity', you've got young men 278 00:11:08,570 --> 00:11:11,829 STEPHEN PILLING: — and older men also — but young 279 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:15,549 STEPHEN PILLING: men and they feel that it's necessary to 280 00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:18,729 STEPHEN PILLING: suppress their emotions, reject any 281 00:11:18,730 --> 00:11:21,629 STEPHEN PILLING: sense that they themselves might present 282 00:11:21,630 --> 00:11:23,009 STEPHEN PILLING: as vulnerable. 283 00:11:23,010 --> 00:11:26,069 STEPHEN PILLING: What I'm seeing more of — and you see 284 00:11:26,070 --> 00:11:29,109 STEPHEN PILLING: it on social media more and more —people 285 00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:32,689 STEPHEN PILLING: are prioritising dominance and aggression, 286 00:11:32,690 --> 00:11:35,789 STEPHEN PILLING: and there's less focus on actually 287 00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:38,609 STEPHEN PILLING: what is healthy masculinity, what is 288 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:40,249 STEPHEN PILLING: positive masculinity. 289 00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:42,629 STEPHEN PILLING: So for me right now, we need to be really 290 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:45,269 STEPHEN PILLING: sensitive in regards to using the correct 291 00:11:45,270 --> 00:11:47,129 STEPHEN PILLING: language and 292 00:11:49,349 --> 00:11:52,309 STEPHEN PILLING: not demonising people in the sense of 293 00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:54,849 STEPHEN PILLING: actually embracing masculinity and letting 294 00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:57,869 STEPHEN PILLING: them understand that it's 295 00:11:57,870 --> 00:12:00,729 STEPHEN PILLING: a spectrum and that we really need to 296 00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:03,189 STEPHEN PILLING: define what is positive masculinity and 297 00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:04,818 STEPHEN PILLING: what is unhealthy. 298 00:12:04,819 --> 00:12:07,079 EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, have you got a 299 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,589 EMILY HARRISON: viewpoint on this? 300 00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:10,209 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think going back to Stephen's point 301 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:12,529 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about the language, the language is key 302 00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:14,869 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and the language that we use towards 303 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:16,909 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young boys I think is really, really 304 00:12:16,910 --> 00:12:18,289 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important. 305 00:12:18,290 --> 00:12:19,689 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Trying to reframe language in a 306 00:12:19,690 --> 00:12:22,169 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: different way for me is important and 307 00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:24,489 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I've even had debates with others around 308 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:25,829 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: things that you say to little boys such 309 00:12:25,830 --> 00:12:28,169 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: as "be a brave little soldier". 310 00:12:28,170 --> 00:12:30,569 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: You know, "don't be a cry-baby". 311 00:12:30,570 --> 00:12:32,289 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And those messages, although mightn't 312 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:34,289 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: sound very harmful on face value, if a 313 00:12:34,290 --> 00:12:35,669 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: child takes that and frames that in a 314 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:38,769 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: certain way that can lead into such— 315 00:12:38,770 --> 00:12:40,274 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: become so destructive later on in life, 316 00:12:40,275 --> 00:12:43,409 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with young boys afraid to express 317 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:45,589 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their emotions, to reach out for help to 318 00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:46,969 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the likes of Childline whenever they 319 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:49,469 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: need it. And I think we all have a duty 320 00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:52,569 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to rethink the language 321 00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:54,649 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we use to young boys growing up 322 00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:57,749 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: today so that they do develop a 323 00:12:57,750 --> 00:12:59,469 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: more healthy viewpoint of masculinity 324 00:12:59,470 --> 00:13:02,409 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and that they know that being vulnerable 325 00:13:02,410 --> 00:13:04,189 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and reaching for help whenever you do 326 00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:06,409 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have difficulties is okay; it's not a 327 00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:07,269 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: bad thing 328 00:13:07,270 --> 00:13:08,889 EMILY HARRISON: Sure, sure. 329 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:10,929 EMILY HARRISON: When we're talking about those children and 330 00:13:10,930 --> 00:13:14,109 EMILY HARRISON: we're looking at the whole raft of 331 00:13:14,110 --> 00:13:15,809 EMILY HARRISON: forums that are available, particularly 332 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:18,796 EMILY HARRISON: online, for children at the moment 333 00:13:18,797 --> 00:13:21,889 EMILY HARRISON: — if we put all those together, that is 334 00:13:21,890 --> 00:13:24,449 EMILY HARRISON: pretty much what the 'manosphere' is. 335 00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:27,669 EMILY HARRISON: It's the collection of different forums 336 00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:29,597 EMILY HARRISON: that people are having these conversations 337 00:13:29,598 --> 00:13:32,809 EMILY HARRISON: on and sometimes they are really 338 00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:34,249 EMILY HARRISON: unhealthy. 339 00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:36,244 EMILY HARRISON: Cormac, from a Childline perspective, have 340 00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:40,019 EMILY HARRISON: we seen that come through where we're 341 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:42,239 EMILY HARRISON: getting young people — boys and girls — 342 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,159 EMILY HARRISON: coming through with their concerns about 343 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,149 EMILY HARRISON: forums and participation? 344 00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:49,709 CORMAC NOLAN: Definitely. And as my colleagues were 345 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:52,529 CORMAC NOLAN: speaking there, I was just reflecting on the 346 00:13:52,530 --> 00:13:55,469 CORMAC NOLAN: number of influences, external influences, 347 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:58,190 CORMAC NOLAN: that a young person can be exposed to. 348 00:13:59,210 --> 00:14:01,109 CORMAC NOLAN: Because the online environment is so 349 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:04,429 CORMAC NOLAN: available, it's there all of the time. 350 00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:07,909 CORMAC NOLAN: And young people can be quite seduced, 351 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:10,209 CORMAC NOLAN: if you like, or easily influenced into 352 00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:12,379 CORMAC NOLAN: certain environments and certain communities 353 00:14:12,380 --> 00:14:15,739 CORMAC NOLAN: within the online environment 354 00:14:15,740 --> 00:14:18,739 CORMAC NOLAN: that can resonate with them 355 00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:20,859 CORMAC NOLAN: to some degree. 356 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:22,379 CORMAC NOLAN: Sometimes for children and young people, they 357 00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:24,119 CORMAC NOLAN: tell us when they become part of this and 358 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:25,739 CORMAC NOLAN: they become involved in conversations, it's 359 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:27,640 CORMAC NOLAN: difficult to remove themselves from this. 360 00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:30,759 CORMAC NOLAN: And opinions that they develop wouldn't 361 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,359 CORMAC NOLAN: necessarily have been opinions or thoughts 362 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,359 CORMAC NOLAN: that they would normally have held. 363 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,919 CORMAC NOLAN: If you imagine that we have a group of 364 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,659 CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people who maybe are at 365 00:14:39,660 --> 00:14:42,659 CORMAC NOLAN: school together, but whose online activity is 366 00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:44,809 CORMAC NOLAN: similar to what I have described, you can see 367 00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:47,589 CORMAC NOLAN: how this thing perpetuates and how it can 368 00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:50,049 CORMAC NOLAN: grow and how we need a more positive 369 00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:52,809 CORMAC NOLAN: influence for children and young people. 370 00:14:52,810 --> 00:14:55,689 CORMAC NOLAN: The point about language earlier on is that 371 00:14:55,690 --> 00:14:58,569 CORMAC NOLAN: we don't tend to use labels, and if a young 372 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:01,109 CORMAC NOLAN: person brings a label to us we would very 373 00:15:01,110 --> 00:15:03,829 CORMAC NOLAN: much explore "what does that mean for you, 374 00:15:03,830 --> 00:15:06,289 CORMAC NOLAN: how does that impact on you and how does that 375 00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:09,149 CORMAC NOLAN: play out in your life?" But what I would say 376 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:12,009 CORMAC NOLAN: is 'toxic' — on its own, not necessarily 377 00:15:12,010 --> 00:15:14,449 CORMAC NOLAN: related to masculinity — but 'toxic' is a 378 00:15:14,450 --> 00:15:16,289 CORMAC NOLAN: word that children and young people frequently 379 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:18,989 CORMAC NOLAN: use about relationships and friendships. 380 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:22,209 CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a good understanding that is 381 00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:23,907 CORMAC NOLAN: relevant to children and young people. 382 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:27,529 CORMAC NOLAN: But in terms of the online environment, 383 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:30,229 CORMAC NOLAN: absolutely it is hugely influential for 384 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:32,709 CORMAC NOLAN: children and people and its accessibility we 385 00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:35,389 CORMAC NOLAN: know can be a good thing, but we know it can 386 00:15:35,390 --> 00:15:37,769 CORMAC NOLAN: also be quite a bad thing as well. 387 00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:40,289 EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, a little earlier on you 388 00:15:40,290 --> 00:15:42,429 EMILY HARRISON: talked to us a little bit about your 389 00:15:42,430 --> 00:15:44,369 EMILY HARRISON: counselling work and obviously you've got 390 00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:46,749 EMILY HARRISON: your Helpline work as well. 391 00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:49,869 EMILY HARRISON: With the men that you supported as victims 392 00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:52,945 EMILY HARRISON: of domestic abuse, and those men that 393 00:15:54,030 --> 00:15:55,909 EMILY HARRISON: came to you for counselling services in 394 00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:57,789 EMILY HARRISON: general, were there a lot that came through 395 00:15:57,790 --> 00:16:01,169 EMILY HARRISON: that were fathers? And how did 396 00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:04,219 EMILY HARRISON: the experiences that they were having, have 397 00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:07,279 EMILY HARRISON: an impact on their relationship with their 398 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,779 EMILY HARRISON: children? So, I'm asking more about the 399 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:12,679 EMILY HARRISON: impact of that relationship and those, 400 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,059 EMILY HARRISON: perhaps, traumas that they'd had. 401 00:16:16,060 --> 00:16:17,859 EMILY HARRISON: How did that affect the relationship with 402 00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:19,119 EMILY HARRISON: the children? 403 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,379 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever you ask that question, the 404 00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:23,779 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: first thing that comes to mind is most 405 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:25,819 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: of the men that I work with were 406 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:27,119 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers. 407 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,659 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And a common theme that I recall was 408 00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:34,059 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that the children were 409 00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:36,339 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: frequently encouraged to deride their 410 00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:38,239 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers and see them as being less than 411 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,019 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: men, being weak, being feeble; not being 412 00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:43,379 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: real men because they weren't able to 413 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:46,539 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: live to the typical male role model 414 00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:49,429 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in the house with the more dominant 415 00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:50,865 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: female being in the home. 416 00:16:50,866 --> 00:16:53,989 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Then you had same-sex couples that 417 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:55,729 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: were — you know, a male presenting from 418 00:16:55,730 --> 00:16:59,325 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: a same-sex couple — who, again, 419 00:16:59,326 --> 00:17:01,189 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reaching out for help, they were worried 420 00:17:01,190 --> 00:17:03,129 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they were going to be judged and 421 00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:05,184 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: actually being seen as less than men 422 00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:08,209 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for a double reason; because they'd let 423 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:10,249 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: this happen to them, because their 424 00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:12,489 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship was seen as being wrong in 425 00:17:12,490 --> 00:17:14,328 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the first place by some of their family. 426 00:17:14,329 --> 00:17:15,789 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So then for this to happen within that 427 00:17:15,790 --> 00:17:17,939 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship, they were often told "well 428 00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:19,219 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you see, you see". 429 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:22,338 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So I think for men, it 430 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:23,648 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: was the weakness. 431 00:17:23,649 --> 00:17:26,659 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The weakness; they really felt that 432 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:28,279 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their masculinity had been robbed, and 433 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,879 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you could really see that? 434 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,679 EMILY HARRISON: That's really interesting, really 435 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,939 EMILY HARRISON: interesting. 436 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:34,699 EMILY HARRISON: You've just touched on something else there 437 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:36,399 EMILY HARRISON: that I want us to have a little bit of a 438 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,639 EMILY HARRISON: discussion about as a group really, so feel 439 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,420 EMILY HARRISON: free to chip in. 440 00:17:40,421 --> 00:17:43,979 EMILY HARRISON: Let's talk about role modelling. 441 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:47,159 EMILY HARRISON: So what do you see as effective 442 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,439 EMILY HARRISON: role modelling? What does that look like? 443 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:50,939 EMILY HARRISON: What does it look like to you? 444 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,273 EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, do you want to start us off? 445 00:17:54,290 --> 00:17:57,329 STEPHEN PILLING: From a personal perspective, I'm a 446 00:17:57,330 --> 00:18:00,129 STEPHEN PILLING: father now. I'm raising a little boy who 447 00:18:00,130 --> 00:18:03,189 STEPHEN PILLING: is now 11 years old and 448 00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:06,169 STEPHEN PILLING: he's entering in this world where he's 449 00:18:06,170 --> 00:18:09,729 STEPHEN PILLING: going to be exposed to social media. 450 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:12,489 STEPHEN PILLING: He's going be exposed to other opinions 451 00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:15,569 STEPHEN PILLING: outside the family network and 452 00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:17,389 STEPHEN PILLING: he is going to need to make his own 453 00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:20,489 STEPHEN PILLING: decisions in life as a young person. 454 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:23,449 STEPHEN PILLING: So my aim as a parent 455 00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:26,569 STEPHEN PILLING: in regards to role modelling is — where 456 00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:29,709 STEPHEN PILLING: my primary focus is — is trying to 457 00:18:29,710 --> 00:18:32,663 STEPHEN PILLING: develop an understanding in regards 458 00:18:32,664 --> 00:18:35,649 STEPHEN PILLING: to defining values and what 459 00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:38,589 STEPHEN PILLING: values are. And the reason that I focus on 460 00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:41,769 STEPHEN PILLING: that so much is that my hope 461 00:18:41,770 --> 00:18:44,969 STEPHEN PILLING: is that if my child is 462 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:48,029 STEPHEN PILLING: values-led in life, that will 463 00:18:48,030 --> 00:18:50,589 STEPHEN PILLING: equip him in regards to making good 464 00:18:50,590 --> 00:18:53,689 STEPHEN PILLING: choices and good decisions in life and in 465 00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:55,529 STEPHEN PILLING: relationships in the future. 466 00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:58,489 STEPHEN PILLING: And I think where the struggle is right 467 00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:01,229 STEPHEN PILLING: now — and it was something I didn't learn 468 00:19:01,230 --> 00:19:04,388 STEPHEN PILLING: until into my early 20s 469 00:19:04,389 --> 00:19:07,569 STEPHEN PILLING: — although that I did 470 00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:10,789 STEPHEN PILLING: have a value and belief base, I couldn't 471 00:19:10,790 --> 00:19:12,849 STEPHEN PILLING: clearly define it. 472 00:19:12,850 --> 00:19:15,309 STEPHEN PILLING: I got help with that and I think that's 473 00:19:15,310 --> 00:19:17,469 STEPHEN PILLING: where we need to aim our focus and 474 00:19:17,470 --> 00:19:20,469 STEPHEN PILLING: modelling in regards to children 475 00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:23,439 STEPHEN PILLING: and people; getting them 476 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,719 STEPHEN PILLING: to understand what a value is and 477 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,879 STEPHEN PILLING: defining their values, encouraging them 478 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,679 STEPHEN PILLING: and helping them to define their values 479 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,369 STEPHEN PILLING: moving forward. 480 00:19:32,370 --> 00:19:34,349 EMILY HARRISON: I suppose it's developing that moral 481 00:19:34,350 --> 00:19:35,820 EMILY HARRISON: compass as well, isn't it, to be 482 00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:38,390 EMILY HARRISON: able to carry through. 483 00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:42,809 EMILY HARRISON: Yeah. Cormac, did you have a thought 484 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:43,899 EMILY HARRISON: in mind there? 485 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,859 CORMAC NOLAN: I guess my principle thought really is 486 00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:49,279 CORMAC NOLAN: that, for children and young people, we have 487 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,219 CORMAC NOLAN: to be mindful that they're still growing, 488 00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:52,659 CORMAC NOLAN: they're still developing, they are still trying 489 00:19:52,660 --> 00:19:56,219 CORMAC NOLAN: to find who they are, "where do I fit in, 490 00:19:56,220 --> 00:19:59,339 CORMAC NOLAN: what type of person am I?" So they're 491 00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:02,379 CORMAC NOLAN: already in a time of development but also a 492 00:20:02,380 --> 00:20:05,379 CORMAC NOLAN: time of confusion — throw in puberty just to 493 00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:07,359 CORMAC NOLAN: confuse things even more. 494 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,479 CORMAC NOLAN: And I think— I mean, I totally agree with 495 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,099 CORMAC NOLAN: what Stephen has said, and I probably would 496 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:14,119 CORMAC NOLAN: add to that: that as adults, we need to 497 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,919 CORMAC NOLAN: be very mindful of our behaviour and how our 498 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,079 CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour can influence children and young 499 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,179 CORMAC NOLAN: people. It's not as black and white as right 500 00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:24,339 CORMAC NOLAN: and wrong — it kind of is, but everybody's 501 00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:26,259 CORMAC NOLAN: right and everybody's wrong is slightly 502 00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:27,260 CORMAC NOLAN: different. 503 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,519 CORMAC NOLAN: We should endeavour to be positive role 504 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,659 CORMAC NOLAN: models, to behave in a way that we would like 505 00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:34,559 CORMAC NOLAN: to see other children and young people, 506 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,139 CORMAC NOLAN: including our own, behave. To be respectful 507 00:20:38,140 --> 00:20:39,479 CORMAC NOLAN: to other people. 508 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,199 CORMAC NOLAN: And I think we can keep it simple. 509 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,059 CORMAC NOLAN: It doesn't have to be complex, but I think it 510 00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:45,239 CORMAC NOLAN: needs to be consistent and that's sometimes 511 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,059 CORMAC NOLAN: where it can be difficult. 512 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:49,679 CORMAC NOLAN: But to have a bit of understanding and a bit 513 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,849 CORMAC NOLAN: sympathy for how difficult it is growing up. 514 00:20:51,850 --> 00:20:54,259 CORMAC NOLAN: We all know, we've been there, and it's even 515 00:20:54,260 --> 00:20:57,259 CORMAC NOLAN: more difficult now. And to be aware of 516 00:20:57,260 --> 00:21:00,419 CORMAC NOLAN: the external influences and have a curiosity 517 00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:03,699 CORMAC NOLAN: particularly about online life, and 518 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,279 CORMAC NOLAN: online and external activity; a healthy 519 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,119 CORMAC NOLAN: curiosity and interest that your child will 520 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:10,989 CORMAC NOLAN: respond positively too. 521 00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:12,309 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Reflecting on both what Stephen and 522 00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:15,149 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac have said, I do see positives 523 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:17,189 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: taking place. I'm aware of one 524 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:19,129 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: organisation based in Belfast. 525 00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:20,869 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They try and incorporate what both 526 00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:23,749 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Stephen and Cormac have talked about. 527 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:25,149 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They go out and they talk to young men 528 00:21:25,150 --> 00:21:26,637 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in schools, young boys in schools. 529 00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:30,569 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And they, rather than... 530 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:32,469 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever these views come up, these 531 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:34,209 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: toxic views come up, these unhealthy 532 00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:37,229 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: views, rather than saying, 533 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:39,009 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "you're wrong, that's bad, you shouldn't 534 00:21:39,010 --> 00:21:41,378 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: be doing that", they explore. 535 00:21:41,379 --> 00:21:42,999 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They explore where those viewpoints have 536 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,759 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: come from. They explore to get an 537 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,379 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: understanding of what that child or 538 00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:49,119 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young person's life has been like to 539 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:50,120 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them to that point. 540 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:52,459 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think it's that engagement that's really 541 00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:55,039 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important. That we continue to engage, 542 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,939 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we don't label someone a certain 543 00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:58,299 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: way because they have a viewpoint. We 544 00:21:58,300 --> 00:21:59,919 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: don't know what their history has been. 545 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,299 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: We don't know what's led them to the 546 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:03,059 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: point. But we can help them move 547 00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:05,639 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, gain an understanding of what's 548 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,079 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them there and hopefully help them 549 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,379 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to develop more healthy viewpoints by 550 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:12,929 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging — gently challenging and, as 551 00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:15,229 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac said earlier on, at their pace. 552 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:18,189 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: That work is taking place because I do 553 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:19,569 ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: see it happening and it gives me hope. 554 00:22:20,590 --> 00:22:22,329 EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's about 555 00:22:22,330 --> 00:22:24,189 EMILY HARRISON: keeping the conversation going as well, 556 00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:26,309 EMILY HARRISON: isn't it? Because we know that we need to 557 00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:29,289 EMILY HARRISON: have services accessible for people who are 558 00:22:29,290 --> 00:22:31,589 EMILY HARRISON: identifying that maybe this is something 559 00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:33,449 EMILY HARRISON: that they'd like to talk about. 560 00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:35,449 EMILY HARRISON: Maybe this is something they'd like to 561 00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:37,969 EMILY HARRISON: explore their own feelings on, which is 562 00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:39,489 EMILY HARRISON: obviously something that we absolutely 563 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:40,490 EMILY HARRISON: encourage. 564 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:44,469 EMILY HARRISON: If you need to, give the NSPCC Helpline a 565 00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:47,309 EMILY HARRISON: call: 08 08 800 5000 is the number for 566 00:22:47,310 --> 00:22:50,449 EMILY HARRISON: that. We also have, of course, 567 00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:53,929 EMILY HARRISON: Childline, who we actively encourage 568 00:22:53,930 --> 00:22:56,309 EMILY HARRISON: children that would like to talk through 569 00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:59,209 EMILY HARRISON: what they're feeling, particularly if they 570 00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:01,909 EMILY HARRISON: are feeling quite vulnerable around this 571 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:03,189 EMILY HARRISON: topic as well. 572 00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:07,709 EMILY HARRISON: And that is 0800 1111. 573 00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:10,309 EMILY HARRISON: So we do actively encourage people to give 574 00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:12,729 EMILY HARRISON: us a call and we can help you to talk 575 00:23:12,730 --> 00:23:14,849 EMILY HARRISON: through those concerns. 576 00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:17,129 EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, Cormac and Stephen, thank you very, 577 00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:18,949 EMILY HARRISON: very much for your time. 578 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:21,569 EMILY HARRISON: It's been a really good discussion and 579 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:23,949 EMILY HARRISON: hopefully it'll be one that we will 580 00:23:23,950 --> 00:23:26,289 EMILY HARRISON: continue in the office and will continue to 581 00:23:26,290 --> 00:23:28,429 EMILY HARRISON: talk about in our day-to-day business. 582 00:23:28,430 --> 00:23:31,009 EMILY HARRISON: Thank you. And you've been listening to the 583 00:23:31,010 --> 00:23:32,750 EMILY HARRISON: NSPCC Learning Podcast. 584 00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:40,869 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast. 585 00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:43,629 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was 586 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,349 OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child 587 00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:48,489 OUTRO: protection is ever-changing. 588 00:23:48,490 --> 00:23:50,489 OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 589 00:23:50,490 --> 00:23:53,389 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 590 00:23:53,390 --> 00:23:56,809 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our website 591 00:23:56,810 --> 00:24:00,862 OUTRO: for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.