INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we
INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
EMILY HARRISON: Hi, welcome to the NSPCC Learning
EMILY HARRISON: podcast. My name's Emily, I'm a Domestic
EMILY HARRISON: Abuse Practice Advisor working mainly on
EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline with the NSPCC.
EMILY HARRISON: Today we're here to talk about a few topics
EMILY HARRISON: that show up on the Helpline, Childline and
EMILY HARRISON: the wider organisation, and indeed in
EMILY HARRISON: society as well.
EMILY HARRISON: Discussions today are focusing on male
EMILY HARRISON: experiences of domestic abuse and wider
EMILY HARRISON: harms, harmful masculinity, and also
EMILY HARRISON: gives thought to how men can be allies for
EMILY HARRISON: women and children when it comes to looking
EMILY HARRISON: at alternative behaviours and the work that
EMILY HARRISON: we're involved with.
EMILY HARRISON: I'm joined today by Adrian.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, my name is Adrian.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm a Practice Manager with the NSPCC
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Helpline. I am a counsellor by
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: profession and I continue to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: deliver counselling to young people
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: outside the organisation one day a week.
EMILY HARRISON: Stephen.
STEPHEN PILLING: Hi, my name is Stephen and I'm a
STEPHEN PILLING: practitioner on the Helpline.
STEPHEN PILLING: I've done this role for around five years.
STEPHEN PILLING: I have a social work background,
STEPHEN PILLING: qualifying in 2009, and much of
STEPHEN PILLING: my work and career has been working in
STEPHEN PILLING: the voluntary sector, supporting children
STEPHEN PILLING: and their families.
EMILY HARRISON: And Cormac.
CORMAC NOLAN: My name is Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the
CORMAC NOLAN: Service Heads in Childline.
CORMAC NOLAN: That means that I have responsibilities for
CORMAC NOLAN: some of our Childline bases and the live
CORMAC NOLAN: service that we offer. But in addition to
CORMAC NOLAN: that, I'm also responsible for the Childline
CORMAC NOLAN: website and everything that goes on there.
EMILY HARRISON: Welcome, welcome and thank you for taking
EMILY HARRISON: part. I do appreciate you giving up your
EMILY HARRISON: time to be able to get this information out
EMILY HARRISON: there and to have these discussions.
EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, if I can just start with you.
EMILY HARRISON: You've got a lot of experience working with
EMILY HARRISON: men in a counselling setting.
EMILY HARRISON: Can you tell us just a little bit about
EMILY HARRISON: what that looked like to you?
EMILY HARRISON: So for example, was there a specific
EMILY HARRISON: personality type that came through and
EMILY HARRISON: what did their presentation look like?
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Well, before I was counselling with
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young people as I am now, I did work for
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: an organisation working with male
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: survivors of domestic abuse.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The common presentation you would see
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: would be men who were afraid to talk
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about their experiences, men that felt
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they just would not be believed,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and men who...
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Yeah, they had gone through various
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: legal process, things like that, where
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the courts just hadn't believed them.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Unfortunately, you know, it has
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: improved, but look, whenever I first
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: started out in this work — in maybe 2010,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: 2011 — it was very challenging for men.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: It still is very challenging for men to come
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, but it was extremely
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging back then.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The flip side of that was I also worked
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with male perpetrators of domestic
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: abuse. Their presentations were very
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging. You would have lots of
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: people who would come because it was
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: court ordered. For example, if they
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: wanted to see their children, they had to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: receive anger management or they had to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: go to counselling in relation to what
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: they had done. And the typical
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: presentation really was them trying to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: groom me, to become their best mate.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They thought that I would somehow,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: because I was a man, take to their story
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and probably, I don't know,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: collude with them and say
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "oh yeah, yeah, I understand what it is,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that's terrible, that's terrible, that's
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: terrible." You know, at the start you
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have to go along with it a little bit to get
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: them to kind of trust you.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And then it's about working and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: stripping away and challenging their
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviours, sometimes in a way that they
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: find very, very challenging.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I remember having one client who was
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raising his voice going, "I'm not angry,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I'm not angry, I'm not angry." And I
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: raised my voice back and said, "you're
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: not angry, you're not angry, you're not angry." Then
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: he sat back in his chair and I said
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to him, "I wonder how your child
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: feels whenever they see you present like
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that." What I was trying to do was
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reflect back; you know, it's bad enough
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for an adult to be faced with that
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: behaviour, but for a child to be faced
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with that behaviour.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So, yeah, I got to see both sides of it,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: both sides: of the male perpetrator and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the male survivor.
EMILY HARRISON: It must have been quite a time to work as
EMILY HARRISON: well, because we say that sometimes, you
EMILY HARRISON: know, that they're getting better and that
EMILY HARRISON: we've got more understanding and that we're
EMILY HARRISON: getting better equipped to deal with
EMILY HARRISON: things. But everything changes just so
EMILY HARRISON: quickly, doesn't it?
EMILY HARRISON: These things, they do go around in circles
EMILY HARRISON: and cycles. But we also get added
EMILY HARRISON: layers of difficulty in terms of barriers,
EMILY HARRISON: in terms of what goes on in society as
EMILY HARRISON: well, don't we? Stephen, have you
EMILY HARRISON: had any contacts on the Helpline where
EMILY HARRISON: you've been able to identify something
EMILY HARRISON: similar?
STEPHEN PILLING: Yes, certainly on the Helpline
STEPHEN PILLING: we get calls from perpetrators of
STEPHEN PILLING: abuse and it's trying to recognise
STEPHEN PILLING: that they are perpetrators of the abuse,
STEPHEN PILLING: which can be very, very difficult at
STEPHEN PILLING: times. People can be very convincing
STEPHEN PILLING: in what they say.
STEPHEN PILLING: We do get perpetrators who call, but we
STEPHEN PILLING: also get men who are experiencing abuse as
STEPHEN PILLING: well and the majority of them are fathers.
STEPHEN PILLING: And because parenthood is so complex
STEPHEN PILLING: that, you know, it's often difficult for
STEPHEN PILLING: men — what I'm finding is that it's
STEPHEN PILLING: difficult for men to define their role as
STEPHEN PILLING: a parent. We have to listen and obviously
STEPHEN PILLING: validate their concerns, but at the same
STEPHEN PILLING: time we also maybe need to signpost them
STEPHEN PILLING: to specialised services who
STEPHEN PILLING: could explore and help them within
STEPHEN PILLING: their definition of concluding if they've
STEPHEN PILLING: been experiencing domestic abuse.
STEPHEN PILLING: Because I think if you're defining the
STEPHEN PILLING: problem initially, it's easier for any
STEPHEN PILLING: individual to work towards solutions.
STEPHEN PILLING: We don't necessarily know the long-term
STEPHEN PILLING: outcomes. So we get a snapshot and we're
STEPHEN PILLING: trying to give certain advice in
STEPHEN PILLING: a very time-limited way.
EMILY HARRISON: I think those outcomes nationally,
EMILY HARRISON: not just on the Helpline, but nationally
EMILY HARRISON: with other organisations and the
EMILY HARRISON: statutory framework as well, do point to
EMILY HARRISON: that early intervention, early
EMILY HARRISON: identification of those pitfalls,
EMILY HARRISON: problems, dilemmas, barriers.
EMILY HARRISON: The earlier that we can catch those, the
EMILY HARRISON: better the outcome for the child.
EMILY HARRISON: What the Helpline does in terms of giving
EMILY HARRISON: people that opportunity to talk through
EMILY HARRISON: the situation, the scenario, what they're
EMILY HARRISON: experiencing, and their child protection
EMILY HARRISON: concerns and their safeguarding concerns,
EMILY HARRISON: or identification of those, is
EMILY HARRISON: really valuable because we can give that
EMILY HARRISON: advice over the phone and email when it's
EMILY HARRISON: not appropriate to talk on the phone as
EMILY HARRISON: well. Cormac, your experiences come
EMILY HARRISON: from a slightly different angle — and
EMILY HARRISON: that's because you're predominantly with
EMILY HARRISON: Childline — which of course is the child
EMILY HARRISON: perspective.
EMILY HARRISON: So are there any points that
EMILY HARRISON: you'd like to raise on the subject?
CORMAC NOLAN: I think just following on from what Stephen
CORMAC NOLAN: said, there are definitely parallels in
CORMAC NOLAN: Childline alongside what Stephen has
CORMAC NOLAN: been saying. What we find in Childline
CORMAC NOLAN: is a lot of young people, young males will
CORMAC NOLAN: come to us knowing that something's
CORMAC NOLAN: not quite right, something doesn't feel right
CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of their experience or indeed on
CORMAC NOLAN: their own behaviour, but they can't quite pin
CORMAC NOLAN: it down. They certainly often don't have a
CORMAC NOLAN: name for it, but something doesn't feel right
CORMAC NOLAN: and it's impacting on the people around them
CORMAC NOLAN: or on themselves.
CORMAC NOLAN: There maybe — you know, we work with children
CORMAC NOLAN: and young people up to the age of 19 — so
CORMAC NOLAN: there can be babies and children involved in
CORMAC NOLAN: these domestic situations.
CORMAC NOLAN: Children and young people, of course, can be
CORMAC NOLAN: witnesses to domestic abuse, and of course
CORMAC NOLAN: that makes — in the eyes of the law — that
CORMAC NOLAN: makes them victims of that abuse as well.
CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a huge amount to unpick for
CORMAC NOLAN: young males, particularly, and we know
CORMAC NOLAN: historically it's much more difficult for
CORMAC NOLAN: young males to come forward, acknowledge that
CORMAC NOLAN: there's a problem and reach out and seek
CORMAC NOLAN: help. That's our experience over several
CORMAC NOLAN: years. I feel as though that to some degree
CORMAC NOLAN: that's changing.
CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the key things that we try to do
CORMAC NOLAN: with children and young people when they come
CORMAC NOLAN: through is really work at their pace; help
CORMAC NOLAN: them to feel comfortable talking to someone
CORMAC NOLAN: about what can be a really challenging issue.
CORMAC NOLAN: And we're always very mindful of what it has
CORMAC NOLAN: taken for a young person, a young male, to
CORMAC NOLAN: come through and talk to us in the first
CORMAC NOLAN: instance. There's been a lot of thought, a
CORMAC NOLAN: lot of preparation, probably a lot of soul
CORMAC NOLAN: searching, because it can be either an
CORMAC NOLAN: admission that they've done something wrong,
CORMAC NOLAN: or they feel that they've done something wrong,
CORMAC NOLAN: or that something's wrong in their life and
CORMAC NOLAN: around them.
EMILY HARRISON: We've just put this into the context of
EMILY HARRISON: domestic abuse.
EMILY HARRISON: Let's try and broaden that
EMILY HARRISON: thinking for a second and think about abuse
EMILY HARRISON: in more general terms as well.
EMILY HARRISON: More recently we've heard some different
EMILY HARRISON: words being used.
EMILY HARRISON: Some of those words might be 'manosphere',
EMILY HARRISON: 'toxic masculinity', 'patriarchy',
EMILY HARRISON: 'misogyny'. These words are coming through
EMILY HARRISON: the Helpline, they're coming through Childline,
EMILY HARRISON: and we need to explore what those words
EMILY HARRISON: mean a little bit, I think, because the
EMILY HARRISON: word toxic isn't really exploring the
EMILY HARRISON: concern, it's not explaining what
EMILY HARRISON: is actually going on.
EMILY HARRISON: We're tending to try and, rather than
EMILY HARRISON: use a label, use that experience.
EMILY HARRISON: So it might be 'unhealthy masculinity'.
EMILY HARRISON: It might be 'extreme masculinity'.
EMILY HARRISON: And of course, when we talk about that
EMILY HARRISON: masculinity, we're not actually limiting
EMILY HARRISON: that just to men or males, because
EMILY HARRISON: that can be present within females,
EMILY HARRISON: non-binary and trans as well.
EMILY HARRISON: So it is looking very broadly at
EMILY HARRISON: those terms and at those experiences.
EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, if I could start with you on this
EMILY HARRISON: one, is there anything coming to your
EMILY HARRISON: sphere that you think, ah, that is
EMILY HARRISON: reminding me of this?
EMILY HARRISON: Would you like to tell us a little bit about
EMILY HARRISON: it?
STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose there's nothing springing to
STEPHEN PILLING: mind directly from the Helpline because we
STEPHEN PILLING: deal with so many cases day-to-day.
STEPHEN PILLING: It's very hard to pinpoint one.
STEPHEN PILLING: I suppose we're having this debate right
STEPHEN PILLING: now in regards to framing, using
STEPHEN PILLING: the right language and defining
STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity as a whole, you know,
STEPHEN PILLING: and we're all aware of culture
STEPHEN PILLING: wars that are going on at the moment — language
STEPHEN PILLING: is so important and it's important to get
STEPHEN PILLING: a definition correct.
STEPHEN PILLING: I think from what I'm picking up is that,
STEPHEN PILLING: if we were to use the term 'toxic
STEPHEN PILLING: masculinity', you've got young men
STEPHEN PILLING: — and older men also — but young
STEPHEN PILLING: men and they feel that it's necessary to
STEPHEN PILLING: suppress their emotions, reject any
STEPHEN PILLING: sense that they themselves might present
STEPHEN PILLING: as vulnerable.
STEPHEN PILLING: What I'm seeing more of — and you see
STEPHEN PILLING: it on social media more and more —people
STEPHEN PILLING: are prioritising dominance and aggression,
STEPHEN PILLING: and there's less focus on actually
STEPHEN PILLING: what is healthy masculinity, what is
STEPHEN PILLING: positive masculinity.
STEPHEN PILLING: So for me right now, we need to be really
STEPHEN PILLING: sensitive in regards to using the correct
STEPHEN PILLING: language and
STEPHEN PILLING: not demonising people in the sense of
STEPHEN PILLING: actually embracing masculinity and letting
STEPHEN PILLING: them understand that it's
STEPHEN PILLING: a spectrum and that we really need to
STEPHEN PILLING: define what is positive masculinity and
STEPHEN PILLING: what is unhealthy.
EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, have you got a
EMILY HARRISON: viewpoint on this?
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think going back to Stephen's point
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: about the language, the language is key
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and the language that we use towards
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young boys I think is really, really
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Trying to reframe language in a
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: different way for me is important and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I've even had debates with others around
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: things that you say to little boys such
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: as "be a brave little soldier".
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: You know, "don't be a cry-baby".
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And those messages, although mightn't
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: sound very harmful on face value, if a
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: child takes that and frames that in a
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: certain way that can lead into such—
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: become so destructive later on in life,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: with young boys afraid to express
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their emotions, to reach out for help to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the likes of Childline whenever they
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: need it. And I think we all have a duty
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to rethink the language
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we use to young boys growing up
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: today so that they do develop a
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: more healthy viewpoint of masculinity
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and that they know that being vulnerable
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: and reaching for help whenever you do
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: have difficulties is okay; it's not a
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: bad thing
EMILY HARRISON: Sure, sure.
EMILY HARRISON: When we're talking about those children and
EMILY HARRISON: we're looking at the whole raft of
EMILY HARRISON: forums that are available, particularly
EMILY HARRISON: online, for children at the moment
EMILY HARRISON: — if we put all those together, that is
EMILY HARRISON: pretty much what the 'manosphere' is.
EMILY HARRISON: It's the collection of different forums
EMILY HARRISON: that people are having these conversations
EMILY HARRISON: on and sometimes they are really
EMILY HARRISON: unhealthy.
EMILY HARRISON: Cormac, from a Childline perspective, have
EMILY HARRISON: we seen that come through where we're
EMILY HARRISON: getting young people — boys and girls —
EMILY HARRISON: coming through with their concerns about
EMILY HARRISON: forums and participation?
CORMAC NOLAN: Definitely. And as my colleagues were
CORMAC NOLAN: speaking there, I was just reflecting on the
CORMAC NOLAN: number of influences, external influences,
CORMAC NOLAN: that a young person can be exposed to.
CORMAC NOLAN: Because the online environment is so
CORMAC NOLAN: available, it's there all of the time.
CORMAC NOLAN: And young people can be quite seduced,
CORMAC NOLAN: if you like, or easily influenced into
CORMAC NOLAN: certain environments and certain communities
CORMAC NOLAN: within the online environment
CORMAC NOLAN: that can resonate with them
CORMAC NOLAN: to some degree.
CORMAC NOLAN: Sometimes for children and young people, they
CORMAC NOLAN: tell us when they become part of this and
CORMAC NOLAN: they become involved in conversations, it's
CORMAC NOLAN: difficult to remove themselves from this.
CORMAC NOLAN: And opinions that they develop wouldn't
CORMAC NOLAN: necessarily have been opinions or thoughts
CORMAC NOLAN: that they would normally have held.
CORMAC NOLAN: If you imagine that we have a group of
CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people who maybe are at
CORMAC NOLAN: school together, but whose online activity is
CORMAC NOLAN: similar to what I have described, you can see
CORMAC NOLAN: how this thing perpetuates and how it can
CORMAC NOLAN: grow and how we need a more positive
CORMAC NOLAN: influence for children and young people.
CORMAC NOLAN: The point about language earlier on is that
CORMAC NOLAN: we don't tend to use labels, and if a young
CORMAC NOLAN: person brings a label to us we would very
CORMAC NOLAN: much explore "what does that mean for you,
CORMAC NOLAN: how does that impact on you and how does that
CORMAC NOLAN: play out in your life?" But what I would say
CORMAC NOLAN: is 'toxic' — on its own, not necessarily
CORMAC NOLAN: related to masculinity — but 'toxic' is a
CORMAC NOLAN: word that children and young people frequently
CORMAC NOLAN: use about relationships and friendships.
CORMAC NOLAN: So there's a good understanding that is
CORMAC NOLAN: relevant to children and young people.
CORMAC NOLAN: But in terms of the online environment,
CORMAC NOLAN: absolutely it is hugely influential for
CORMAC NOLAN: children and people and its accessibility we
CORMAC NOLAN: know can be a good thing, but we know it can
CORMAC NOLAN: also be quite a bad thing as well.
EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely. Adrian, a little earlier on you
EMILY HARRISON: talked to us a little bit about your
EMILY HARRISON: counselling work and obviously you've got
EMILY HARRISON: your Helpline work as well.
EMILY HARRISON: With the men that you supported as victims
EMILY HARRISON: of domestic abuse, and those men that
EMILY HARRISON: came to you for counselling services in
EMILY HARRISON: general, were there a lot that came through
EMILY HARRISON: that were fathers? And how did
EMILY HARRISON: the experiences that they were having, have
EMILY HARRISON: an impact on their relationship with their
EMILY HARRISON: children? So, I'm asking more about the
EMILY HARRISON: impact of that relationship and those,
EMILY HARRISON: perhaps, traumas that they'd had.
EMILY HARRISON: How did that affect the relationship with
EMILY HARRISON: the children?
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever you ask that question, the
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: first thing that comes to mind is most
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: of the men that I work with were
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And a common theme that I recall was
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that the children were
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: frequently encouraged to deride their
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: fathers and see them as being less than
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: men, being weak, being feeble; not being
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: real men because they weren't able to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: live to the typical male role model
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in the house with the more dominant
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: female being in the home.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Then you had same-sex couples that
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: were — you know, a male presenting from
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: a same-sex couple — who, again,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: reaching out for help, they were worried
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that they were going to be judged and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: actually being seen as less than men
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: for a double reason; because they'd let
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: this happen to them, because their
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship was seen as being wrong in
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: the first place by some of their family.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So then for this to happen within that
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: relationship, they were often told "well
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you see, you see".
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: So I think for men, it
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: was the weakness.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: The weakness; they really felt that
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: their masculinity had been robbed, and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: you could really see that?
EMILY HARRISON: That's really interesting, really
EMILY HARRISON: interesting.
EMILY HARRISON: You've just touched on something else there
EMILY HARRISON: that I want us to have a little bit of a
EMILY HARRISON: discussion about as a group really, so feel
EMILY HARRISON: free to chip in.
EMILY HARRISON: Let's talk about role modelling.
EMILY HARRISON: So what do you see as effective
EMILY HARRISON: role modelling? What does that look like?
EMILY HARRISON: What does it look like to you?
EMILY HARRISON: Stephen, do you want to start us off?
STEPHEN PILLING: From a personal perspective, I'm a
STEPHEN PILLING: father now. I'm raising a little boy who
STEPHEN PILLING: is now 11 years old and
STEPHEN PILLING: he's entering in this world where he's
STEPHEN PILLING: going to be exposed to social media.
STEPHEN PILLING: He's going be exposed to other opinions
STEPHEN PILLING: outside the family network and
STEPHEN PILLING: he is going to need to make his own
STEPHEN PILLING: decisions in life as a young person.
STEPHEN PILLING: So my aim as a parent
STEPHEN PILLING: in regards to role modelling is — where
STEPHEN PILLING: my primary focus is — is trying to
STEPHEN PILLING: develop an understanding in regards
STEPHEN PILLING: to defining values and what
STEPHEN PILLING: values are. And the reason that I focus on
STEPHEN PILLING: that so much is that my hope
STEPHEN PILLING: is that if my child is
STEPHEN PILLING: values-led in life, that will
STEPHEN PILLING: equip him in regards to making good
STEPHEN PILLING: choices and good decisions in life and in
STEPHEN PILLING: relationships in the future.
STEPHEN PILLING: And I think where the struggle is right
STEPHEN PILLING: now — and it was something I didn't learn
STEPHEN PILLING: until into my early 20s
STEPHEN PILLING: — although that I did
STEPHEN PILLING: have a value and belief base, I couldn't
STEPHEN PILLING: clearly define it.
STEPHEN PILLING: I got help with that and I think that's
STEPHEN PILLING: where we need to aim our focus and
STEPHEN PILLING: modelling in regards to children
STEPHEN PILLING: and people; getting them
STEPHEN PILLING: to understand what a value is and
STEPHEN PILLING: defining their values, encouraging them
STEPHEN PILLING: and helping them to define their values
STEPHEN PILLING: moving forward.
EMILY HARRISON: I suppose it's developing that moral
EMILY HARRISON: compass as well, isn't it, to be
EMILY HARRISON: able to carry through.
EMILY HARRISON: Yeah. Cormac, did you have a thought
EMILY HARRISON: in mind there?
CORMAC NOLAN: I guess my principle thought really is
CORMAC NOLAN: that, for children and young people, we have
CORMAC NOLAN: to be mindful that they're still growing,
CORMAC NOLAN: they're still developing, they are still trying
CORMAC NOLAN: to find who they are, "where do I fit in,
CORMAC NOLAN: what type of person am I?" So they're
CORMAC NOLAN: already in a time of development but also a
CORMAC NOLAN: time of confusion — throw in puberty just to
CORMAC NOLAN: confuse things even more.
CORMAC NOLAN: And I think— I mean, I totally agree with
CORMAC NOLAN: what Stephen has said, and I probably would
CORMAC NOLAN: add to that: that as adults, we need to
CORMAC NOLAN: be very mindful of our behaviour and how our
CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour can influence children and young
CORMAC NOLAN: people. It's not as black and white as right
CORMAC NOLAN: and wrong — it kind of is, but everybody's
CORMAC NOLAN: right and everybody's wrong is slightly
CORMAC NOLAN: different.
CORMAC NOLAN: We should endeavour to be positive role
CORMAC NOLAN: models, to behave in a way that we would like
CORMAC NOLAN: to see other children and young people,
CORMAC NOLAN: including our own, behave. To be respectful
CORMAC NOLAN: to other people.
CORMAC NOLAN: And I think we can keep it simple.
CORMAC NOLAN: It doesn't have to be complex, but I think it
CORMAC NOLAN: needs to be consistent and that's sometimes
CORMAC NOLAN: where it can be difficult.
CORMAC NOLAN: But to have a bit of understanding and a bit
CORMAC NOLAN: sympathy for how difficult it is growing up.
CORMAC NOLAN: We all know, we've been there, and it's even
CORMAC NOLAN: more difficult now. And to be aware of
CORMAC NOLAN: the external influences and have a curiosity
CORMAC NOLAN: particularly about online life, and
CORMAC NOLAN: online and external activity; a healthy
CORMAC NOLAN: curiosity and interest that your child will
CORMAC NOLAN: respond positively too.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Reflecting on both what Stephen and
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac have said, I do see positives
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: taking place. I'm aware of one
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: organisation based in Belfast.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They try and incorporate what both
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Stephen and Cormac have talked about.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They go out and they talk to young men
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: in schools, young boys in schools.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: And they, rather than...
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Whenever these views come up, these
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: toxic views come up, these unhealthy
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: views, rather than saying,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: "you're wrong, that's bad, you shouldn't
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: be doing that", they explore.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: They explore where those viewpoints have
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: come from. They explore to get an
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: understanding of what that child or
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: young person's life has been like to
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them to that point.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: I think it's that engagement that's really
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: important. That we continue to engage,
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: that we don't label someone a certain
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: way because they have a viewpoint. We
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: don't know what their history has been.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: We don't know what's led them to the
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: point. But we can help them move
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: forward, gain an understanding of what's
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: lead them there and hopefully help them
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: to develop more healthy viewpoints by
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: challenging — gently challenging and, as
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: Cormac said earlier on, at their pace.
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: That work is taking place because I do
ADRIAN SOMERVILLE: see it happening and it gives me hope.
EMILY HARRISON: Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's about
EMILY HARRISON: keeping the conversation going as well,
EMILY HARRISON: isn't it? Because we know that we need to
EMILY HARRISON: have services accessible for people who are
EMILY HARRISON: identifying that maybe this is something
EMILY HARRISON: that they'd like to talk about.
EMILY HARRISON: Maybe this is something they'd like to
EMILY HARRISON: explore their own feelings on, which is
EMILY HARRISON: obviously something that we absolutely
EMILY HARRISON: encourage.
EMILY HARRISON: If you need to, give the NSPCC Helpline a
EMILY HARRISON: call: 08 08 800 5000 is the number for
EMILY HARRISON: that. We also have, of course,
EMILY HARRISON: Childline, who we actively encourage
EMILY HARRISON: children that would like to talk through
EMILY HARRISON: what they're feeling, particularly if they
EMILY HARRISON: are feeling quite vulnerable around this
EMILY HARRISON: topic as well.
EMILY HARRISON: And that is 0800 1111.
EMILY HARRISON: So we do actively encourage people to give
EMILY HARRISON: us a call and we can help you to talk
EMILY HARRISON: through those concerns.
EMILY HARRISON: Adrian, Cormac and Stephen, thank you very,
EMILY HARRISON: very much for your time.
EMILY HARRISON: It's been a really good discussion and
EMILY HARRISON: hopefully it'll be one that we will
EMILY HARRISON: continue in the office and will continue to
EMILY HARRISON: talk about in our day-to-day business.
EMILY HARRISON: Thank you. And you've been listening to the
EMILY HARRISON: NSPCC Learning Podcast.
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