Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast
Hello welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My Andrew Hunter Murray and I'm here in the I studio with
Helen Lewis, adam McQueen Ian Hislop.
We are here on quite
a fast
moving news day.
So
this is just to
say that at
time of recording Kirstan was
Prime Minister and Peter
Mandelson hasn't been brought back in again for another
job.
I've
up
with a new principle, of, political life.
the
thing of the Peter
principle everyone is employed
one degree more than they should be.
This is the
Peter
principle where
you come back one
time after you really should be.
One
time too many.
One time too many.
Yeah.
I would say
three
is
three times many.
Yeah.
I suppose we're gonna start off with
how this whole
thing unfolded in the first
place.
were
any signs
possibly that making Peter
mad
ambassador
to the USA was a bad decision?
Yes.
The two previous resignations for basically exactly the same sort of thing,
which is having slightly suspicious relationships with wealthy people.
It's
how much
due diligence you
actually need to do.
'cause
you can pretty much guarantee that
if you he's man on the job, he's gonna be in with some dodgy, very rich person.
He's not gonna declare that to the people he
should have been.
gonna open up some
sort of back channel to do some kind of dodgy favor
for them, and he's
gonna have to resign pretty quickly and make everyone look stupid.
it's not, hard
to work out, is it?
I'm not saying that I was underwhelmed by the scandal, but there has been
a lot of that this is the greatest scandal since the perfumer affair.
It's the scandal of the century, whatever.
And I, kept running into.
my, but This is what Peter Mandelson does filter.
Yeah.
And I also wonder whether or not for people who aren't so tuned into
the Westminster bubble and the soap opera aspect of it, the way that it's
affected now, KISS Summers now former Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney.
This was just a kind of like more sort of SNAs in the trough
I I,
it on a par with maybe MP's expenses perhaps as the most similar scandal of
the kind, which is I think it would've validated a lot of people's prejudice
about the kind of thing that they thought politicians were all up to anyway.
I know there's an element
it, which is very much scorpion
stings, frog shock.
But there is also
an element where we
promised all of boring process.
We were promised a that treads
likely on everyone's lives.
And
appear to have
that.
I still cannot believe anybody's surprise.
I've made a point about the cover about, Beatrice and Eugenie being.
Sold off to, Epstein, which we made a long time ago.
But when he went on that yacht with Osborne and De Paska,
private, I ran a cover and we put in as many puns as we could.
At the time, I feel sleaze sick every Mandy for himself, bankers away, corfu
or a stink.
it's not as
though,
whenever Mandy did anything involving rich people, no one noticed.
How
can he have gone through?
And
this is,
that scandal's not mentioned in the top three, which are all,
we
have to resign over
one.
It was
one of
the rarities, wasn't it?
And,
and you asked yourself why not?
But it did happen,
and everybody knew.
Everybody in politics knew what happens when you appoint Mandy and they
did it anyway.
not to, I know this is my area of specialist interest and or personal
psychological scarring, but the Labour psychodrama of this is quite
worth, revisiting because essentially the series of events is, this.
Kirstan is elected In 2015, having been a very successful human rights lawyer.
But fundamentally fairly apolitical.
And he moves his way through the Labour ranks by essentially
attaching himself to Brexit, which he was shadow Brexit secretary.
And that's a really useful place to be in with the membership because they
were fervently, far more pro-European than Jeremy Corbin, at the same time
that they absolutely loved Jeremy Corbin and were very resistant to
people from the center and the right of the party having a go at Corbin.
But this was the one issue actually, that Corbin was not
as one with the membership on.
So when you get to that leadership election in 2020, I went to see Ki
Amadou Hustings, and you would not have thought you could really put a
cigarette paper between him and Corbin.
That's the way he presented it.
He thought Corbin had been a bit soft on antisemitism that come up on the
doorsteps, and he actually wished that he'd been more, repellent of
Brexit, both of which were okay with the membership, but he did not present
himself as this radical departure.
But what then subsequently happened is through Morgan McSweeney
He
brought in this entire agenda.
That was the one in which they won such a big majority last year,
which was essentially appealing to white working class voters.
People who might have been Labour to reform
switches,
hero voters, they called them whatever it was.
But in order to kind of staff that when the gravity of the party was
still somewhere in the Corbin to Ed Milliband Soft left zone, they ended
up bringing in a lot of blairites.
And I think this is one of the things we, as we're recording this, Tim Allen
has just gone from down Street as executive Director of Communications.
He was only brought back in September, a Blair veteran.
We've talked before, you've mentioned Alan Milburn brought in to do health,
a Blairite veteran, Max, Jonathan Powell and National Security.
Yeah.
and
this other person who I think will maybe is a landmine for the future,
Matthew Doyle, who was a comms person in the Blair era, brought back to do
comms for Kier, has just been ennoble by him and is facing questions about
whether why he kept supporting a
guy who had been charged with looking at child sexual abuse material and then
ran against Labour as an independent.
And the common, this
not
Epstein, this
is,
This is another pedophile just to keep tracking if you're playing at home.
but the, one of these issues is the fact that they essentially, thema, what is
the Stara project they just bought in Blairism as a way of staffing up roles.
'cause they're just and a long time in opposition, lost
all their institution memory.
So you're getting a kind of, I guess for you two who were in a
private eye through the Blair areas.
This is a sort of bizarre deja vu,
right?
It's all happening again.
Yeah.
Roger Little suddenly
we're
talking about, again,
him,
he was
the one that was hosting these Sunday night dos with, Mandelson and various
other people.
he's a yet another name that was knocking around when I first started at the
magazine.
It is extraordinary.
I, cannot believe there's nobody else alive in Britain who couldn't do the
job better than people who worked for Blair in a very previous government.
Why why would you let Mandelson vet candidates.
Of all people.
Why would you let Mandelson do anything?
It's still utterly beyond me.
But yes, I gather you are heading towards the center.
You need some people who've done things before.
But do you need people who've done things before very badly?
this is the greatest mystery about Mandel,
isn't it?
'cause
always had and maintained this reputation as being this great PR spinner
and this
fantastic
who can, work
behind the scenes and achieve amazing things.
What all he's ever done is make
dislike him quite intensely and turn himself into a symbol of
corrupt politics repeatedly.
I think there is something quite attractive, and as a political journalist,
you have to be honest about it, about a people who are really great sources and
they've got a lot of really good gossip.
But also people who absolutely love politics and love the game of politics.
One of the problems, I, was at the New Statesman during the Ed Miller
Band Reign and he ply disdained and politics was, it was beneath him.
Why is everybody just plotting always and briefing and, oh, it's te so terrible.
and I think Stama has that view too.
So therefore it is.
As a journalist, more refreshing to spend time with people who
absolutely love, like the George Osborne, your Ed Balls, people who
just
gove
Michael Gove is a very good example.
So I think from the point of view of journalists who work in those circles,
not only those people, very good sources of information, but like you, they, enjoy
the personal drama versus your kind of Gordon Brown, your kiers, who are, try
and see themselves as a, as aloof from it.
I
the problem with that probably is that 99.9999% of people in the country
aren't political journalists and are
actively repulsed a bit like Ed Miller
and I think Kiama buy
by that sort of
politics.
doesn't really
help.
there has been a slight change of line, I'd say from Mandelson
as this story has evolved.
and
We should remember he was sacked
September after a previous batch of emails was released.
he's issued an apology and I'm quoting here to
the women and girls
suffered.
His
previous
line when he was asked about this by the Financial Times was, it's
an FT obsession and frankly, you
can
all fuck off.
that,
is a change of
isn't it?
It's a change of line.
light.
Pr,
what more
Pr,
PR genius
really got a
spin.
But
I suppose the question is, and I know the week
is gonna play
out with whether these files are gonna be released, showing what was
known, when was being vetted for the job, how the decision was made.
The Peter files, if
you like.
sorry,
but,
but his line,
and I think this is very important,
is that
everybody else had said, how could I possibly know this?
I didn't know Peter that well.
This line was repeated by Peter Mandelson.
How could he have known about Jeffrey Epstein He had no
idea who he was.
And at that point, even the dimmest of political journalists thinks I better jump
ship.
there was a very
funny piece about the Times, his attitude, the Times, were a
very pompous leader saying, Who
on Earth thought that Mandel should be trusted and why?
And then someone pointed out, you put him on your
election podcast
and you've invited him in to talk to your journalists.
The very brilliant Simon child writing it.
It is a bit of a point.
You can't thunder when you've had
this person
on Times radio on your
podcast.
Yeah.
Why did
you put him on?
And
if you say, I
him on, 'cause he's really interesting.
He's got good gossip.
You say that's their
line.
What's your
line?
But the line is,
it is
all the way
to Epstein
is,
I was lied to
about this.
So
Mandelson says he was completely
deceived
by Epstein
when he
was visiting
the island
the He never saw any, young
girls
there
or anything like
this,
except
there
were two Swedish women there.
In one
email.
So either he's Blind or
being homosexual, deprived you of
sight,
which
is a
new
he still, that was
the line, wasn't he?
He knew
about it because he's gay.
So he wasn't involved in
sort was, and
then
the, email comes out of him
about, oh, hey,
you're outta prison now.
we're celebrating with
some strippers called, Liberty
and
modesty Modesty
and,
yeah,
yeah.
But Also in the birthday book, which came out last year, there's a line,
a, there's pictures of him with women over age as far as we can tell.
But there's a line about how this, there was a man called Jeffrey who would
turn up with some interesting friends.
So there's, I, they, and, the Epstein files are full of references like that
to his reem, to you and your girls,
this is the thing.
Mandelson's
line is I couldn't possibly known and you
can judge for yourself whether,
how
li how
likely that is.
But
the
line of
the line of Labour team
Mandelson lied to us when
we were vetting him,
you he
said
that the
relationship
over.
But
this
isn't how vetting works.
you
don't say,
you
in any
way dodgy?
They reply, no, of course
I'm not.
And
then you say, thank
you very much
indeed.
That's
very kind
you,
you
have to ask other people
as well
or
just
read some papers.
or
can I just point
out or Indeed
command.
very clear.
On
note,
what might have been wise
for everyone
involved
be to, read private eye.
I, it's good advice for anyone at any time, but this is slicker
writing on the 30th of March, 2009.
So this is
very,
shortly
after
Manton is brought
back into the government by Gordon Brown Okay.
serve as, trading industry secretary, but
effectively
number two
in the government.
He was very much above darling A Chancellor in the packing order.
Slicker writes In uncertain
government
ministers need all the expert help they
can get,
which may explain the surely fanciful suggestion that business secretary
Lord Mandelson
has been discussing
with American Money
Manager Jeffrey Epstein, the new Obama administration
and new powers on
Wall Street.
Last July, Epstein
began serving an
18 month prison sentence in Florida after pleading guilty to soliciting sex from
underage girls
young as 14
multimillionaire Epstein, also a friend of Prince Andrew and
ex-President Clinton has been on day release from
the Palm Beach County
jail since October.
And so
available to meet and speak by telephone
to friends.
But it is surely
too absurd to
that
British government minister would
be talking to a jailbird.
So these suggestions
cannot
true.
30 of the March, 2009.
Wow.
Was
that
a case of
sort of lawyer
induced
sarcasm?
That's how I think of the tone of that.
that can't possibly be happening.
because Very
possibly.
he followed up, slicker, followed
up
again
a couple of years later.
is
which
is
when the, the
story starts
to get slightly
circulation.
he points out
that, it suggested Mandelson contacted Epstein while
he was on day release
from a
prison to see whether he could help smooth the way for the then
business secretary
to contact
leading Wall Street banker Jamie Deon,
chief executive of JP Morgan
Chase,
to discuss
important financial matters, which is exactly the stuff
was coming
out in the emails last week,
about,
Mandelson
suggesting to Epstein that,
JP
should
mildly threaten Alistair Darling,
that then
chancellor over
the proposed
banker's bonuses,
ban,
right?
So
it's
all there.
It's all
there.
It's
all
in the eye.
as, Helen says, it may
not be the biggest
ever, but suggesting government policy should be shared and influenced by Major
Peter files.
It's, it's probably
a bit new, isn't
it?
I
think
in terms
how high it goes as
well.
we were saying literally he
was pretty much second in command in the government.
the profumo affair, which
this has being compared to,
there wasn't even
any accusation.
I
don't think the Profumo
had leaked anything,
via,
his
various
It was just
fact that he was,
sleeping with
Christine Kiler
at the same time that she
was sleeping
with with a Russian spy.
in
terms of actual leak
it tended to be very
low down people.
Usually
the Ministry of Defense
was the kinda the weakest
place, but it was low down.
civil servant.
was actually the second
powerful
man in the country.
It was quite prepared
to discuss
market sensitive information,
confidential documents and
share
them with,
but share them, particularly with an American pedophile
does seem quite
major.
And,
the
line that Andy's
is that everyone lied to everyone.
Peter
Balson
voluntarily handed over
the information straight away.
And then lied to the Prime Minister.
so it's
not
just
passive.
I suppose the thing
I'm
interested in at what point
does believing
you
are being lied to by someone is a
proven
liar,
become culpable.
it
seems
possible.
This is the
Cretin
paradox,
right?
It's
the Cretin paradox.
It
seems,
plausible
that the
only world
leader
to be brought
down
by Epstein files is Kia Starer.
someone
who,
as
far as I can tell, would
absolutely
never have consorted with anyone Epstein, someone
who seems,
pretty, square
and
prosecuted.
Quite
a lot
of
people
guess, prosecuted people like this, rights lawyer,
this is extraordinary, isn't it?
I know.
Donald is named thousands of time in
the
files,
and
apparently this just
cuts
no ice at all in the
USA.
I
I think you have to look at it in the context of the fact that quite
a lot of the parliamentary Labour party think that Stan is a lemon.
the scandal is one thing in itself, but a bit like, who really outside
of nerds like us remembers the Chris pincher scandal, right?
In terms of doing for Boris Johnson.
But it was finding the accumulation of a lot of people thinking,
we are better off without you
than
with you.
Right.
And so I think that's, you have to see it as part of that.
I know what you mean.
It does seem odd that so few consequences have been suffered by anybody in America.
A few people have lost a, some TV gigs and some, administrative
stuff in US universities So there has been some collateral damage.
But in terms of the political scandal, the fact that Donald
Trump fell out with Jeffrey Epstein in the two thousands before all
these emails
occur, and the fact, I suspect that this was man used to fax mean
things to his email, his enemies really quite late into the nineties.
I'm not sure he'd ever really got to grips with email.
Just means that actually Trump has escaped this, But there's also the fact that he's
elected president for a four year term, there's really no way to get rid of him.
So
just not that live question in the way.
And I felt like about a week ago, there was just this kind of Cent of blood in
the air, essentially from the lobby.
And, that they just thought, hang on a minute.
We like, we've
got him.
and at that point it becomes, it always becomes very unpleasant actually.
George Osborne and Ed balls were talking about this in their podcast,
and George Osborne did this thing.
We said, I never like this bit when you see this sort of hunting pack mentality.
And I thought, I bet you Shad Having been on the end of it a couple of times.
But then both of them ends up saying, I was shocked by the bit where you
would be in government and you would just press forward on your email
from the treasury onto someone else.
I think that's the bit that even people who thought they, and in the case of
George Osborn knew Mandelson quite
well,
actually ed Balls and a sort of frenemy kind of way.
But that, that, I think people were genuinely shocked by that even, and
I don't think that was fake shock.
I think that was real
shock
actually.
that It was
worse
even
than
they thought.
Are
Are you saying
we're not remotely
that he consort with a pedophile after conviction,
but
this
email forwarding
think is
outrageous.
Yes.
genuinely yes.
On the basis that Lord Manon has always delighted in this reputation of the Prince
of Darkness and whatever it might be.
I, And, his lobbying firm had a group of people whose Wikipedia pages have got
very long controversies sections, right?
this is this has always been his shtick, but I think the
word that ki used was betrayal.
And I think there are lots of people within the political class who do feel
like that, that this is a betrayal.
This is so outrageous that you just wouldn't have comprehended,
that anybody would not know.
that this was just, You should never
do
this.
equally in terms
Trump patenting on it,
you talk about
lobbying firm, his global
absolutely secretive
about what clients
was representing there.
still, right
until last week, serving as
a member of the
of Lords, a
member
of Parliament,
he?
And,
he claimed that, the rules, did not apply to
him
as a peer,
that he did not have to disclose who these clients were, that,
his lobbying firm lobbied for.
And
as you
would
expect,
everyone
a wronging
the list is unbelievable.
Even
list of,
Saron technology
is limited.
Emperor pal
appetite.
Yeah.
LLC.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Nuclear,
south African tobacco,
uh,
you name it, they're all in there.
and it was, again, this is this old
hiding in
plain sight business.
I dunno how many pieces Richard Brooks wrote for us about, Mandy's lobbying firm.
but
it was,
this.
area between business and politics.
that's described on their mission statement.
You
think.
You think
that's the
area we don't
want.
We
want politics and
we want
and we do
not.
want
you.
it was helping clients see opportunities
politics.
it's pretty blatant in terms of
one of those
opportunities in
of course, was
the hosted a dinner
for Palantir, Peter Fields, company, with a
load of NHS bosses
just
they picked up
an enormous,
NHS data
contract in
2023. That was one
of
stories.
Yes.
there's
an awful lot more
of these as
well,
and the
idea that this was a good person to have
in charge of your, American
Embassy,
and I, again, I do not buy this argument that they all say,
it was,
High risk, low something, appointment.
It was a very high risk, no possible
benefit appointment.
the diplomatic service is
not
short of
people
who can go in and suck up
to foreigners.
That is part of
the job.
this isn't a new observation
and
you
don't
have
to
have
balson to do it.
So
you
don't buy,
you
don't
buy the, we
needed a
creature to be in the swamp
line.
Previous ambassador did a perfectly good job, right.
Why appoint a political
appointee.
There was a, I think that was one of the many things that has pissed
off the PLP because that Karen Pearce was welllike respected,
seemed to be getting on the job.
There was no, there was no black marks against her record.
And they parachuted in Peter Mandelson, essentially because he
was a mate of Morgan McSweeney's.
And I think that's maybe part of the, rage that Kirsten's feeling is,
I think he feels he was duped into this, but he's the one with his name.
I was gonna say
his
name above the door,
unless
his name's
10.
That's not true.
But like
Ultimately, he's the prime minister.
That's, who he's the ultimate decider.
and the other thing it really spoke to was a sense that I've been
hearing for coming up two years now, about the sense of a kind of
little boys club clique in number 10.
And, there's lots of women working number 10 star's, two new chiefs of staff.
one's acting both
women,
for example.
But there was a feeling that there was a kind of little, group of
people who just got this sort of stitched up in amongst themselves.
and I think that's the Karen Pierce thing spoke to that
is that
particularly the women's PRP were like, hang a minute, you've got rid
of this very well qualified woman in order to put in a very dodgy
man.
What that
There
was
a
kind
of,
what's
that
all,
what's that
all about actually?
Because
are
are no
terms.
It
wasn't
as
she was coming up to the end of
a set
term as
the
You just get appointed.
And
then,
yeah, I
it was.
a,
You are right.
The way that people defended it at the time was essentially like, MAGA
is horrifically
corrupt.
Why don't we send
over someone who won't make them
feel ill at ease?
But
isn't the, lesson of the past six months that sending people who
are
a bit straight,
into battle against
Trump, like Mark Carney
works,
and
the
people who stand up
him get results.
The people who don't our brilliant China deal.
not only have we got nothing at all, but Jimmy
Li goes to
for 20 years.
Oh,
that was good.
That's diplomacy working well,
the whole
of putting mandelson in is
nonsense.
private eye does, we should say feature
the Epstein files, doesn't
it?
Yes.
And
it's
not me on
plane.
it's, a story found by, Robbie Griffith and Adam, about, a
lawyer.
Tell
about him.
Paul
Tweed?
Yes.
Yeah.
Who's been written back
quite a lot
in
the, are.
He's a, Very keen on his job, defamation lawyer,
should
say.
Let's describe him that way.
and he
was,
retained by
Epstein
for a while, although
been very
clear, like
many people
just say, say this week,
that,
actually you didn't,
knew nothing about him and
actually, didn't
stay with him for very long.
He wouldn't take
his
advice.
so
they,
stopped representing him in,
in, in, in 2011,
after
come
prison for the first time.
But,
yes, he
took great
with,
the
private eye cover
that we were discussing, the, Beatrice Eugenie.
it was about the
time, the story, first story, first of
many, stories
came out about Fergie taking
money from, Jeffrey Epstein, who
she seems
to have treated as a sort of cash
really, doesn't she?
Whenever she was in trouble, which of quite often, just said.
Any suggestions
and he would wire
money.
but,
Paul Tweed took great offense at this cover and, suggested to,
Epstein
that,
it was a
great a front and that legal
should be taken, not
in fact
against us, but against
Sarai Ferguson at
time,
who
he thought was
damaging, Jeffrey Epstein's reputation.
and
then the second
mention
was, it
was
Peter Mandelson,
who,
was
sending an
to Jeffrey Epstein saying, I
think you are going
need,
a
good
libel lawyer.
again in
reference to
the private
eye
cover and
the story that
Fergie had herself released.
So
there is
a
sense in which
revenge
is,
being served as a
very cold dish
around here.
But,
that's why we
put in the
joke.
' cause you said, you suggested to Epstein
he
needed a
lawyer.
We
reckon you are
gonna
need a good
lawyer.
right.
We're
be
staying with
this
because it seems.
To
be quite a big one.
good
Andy.
you.
That's
Say that
again.
Yeah,
Promote that
boy.
right.
All right.
We're
gonna be staying this story.
Before
do that,
there
one other
news story that I
think we
cover,
which
is
that this podcast
proudly
lost
in its category at last week's political awards.
I
didn't
you
three at the
event.
you
were
all busy I
got to go
and hang out with George Osborne, ed Balls
and others who
won
big,
I was just gonna say all the people who knew Manon very well won awards.
or have you got
have stayed on a yacht with
him?
What's,
the exact
criteria?
there?
Have just wanna thank the judges of that, the whole competition
who did a brilliant job.
they
were,
Alexander,
Liam
Conlin, mp Greg appointed mp, Steve Race, MP Tom Rutland, mp.
Bar
Ann Jenkin, de
Mattson,
Harry Quilter,
Qui pinner,
and someone called Lord Ben Houchin,
Who
I
don't
think we realized
was
on
the
panel.
And
we
might
have saved ourselves
the
email.
How
on
earth
did
not
win,
Matt,
Matt, the producer and I
just
looked
at each other and thought,
wow, have a
nice
meal.
And we
did.
He's
got no style though, because the cool thing to do in that situation would be
to give the award your enemy and a sort
of
ha i, have.
'cause in he's he's
won, hasn't
he?
In
sense
of in we're talking
about
scandals
that
we
private eye point
out a lot and no one does anything about,
he could
be like, haha, maybe you can
frame
this
next
to your
many,
like,
reams
of
coverage
about
my
dealings.
good
point.
that, that's
an
idea
for
you next
year,
Ben.
so anyway,
We should come back to
the, big winners of the night, George Osborne and his close
personal Trump, Peter Mandelson
and the
fallout
that story.
Are there, is there, are
there any stories
that you think
have
received the prominence they should have?
that
out in the last week, which
have
slightly
been
overwhelmed
by political
drama
and
stuff
from the
Epstein files?
Stuff
from the
files,
yeah.
Okay.
this,
I think is very
This is a statement from
the General Osteopathic Council,
seems to have otherwise
gone and reported.
It says, we are
aware of media
that the husband
of
Mandelson,
Ronaldo
rdo Avila de Silva, was in receipt of funds from Jeffrey Epstein to fund an
course in
the UK in 2009.
Ronaldo Avila DeSilva
did not graduate
osteopathy course and has
never been registered with
the General
Council.
Therefore,
he's not able
to
osteopathy in
accordance
with the law within the uk
if he's
poised
his hands
over your spine at this
moment.
Get off that table.
that
was one of the
bizarre details.
' cause when it, this was the point where Del was still
talking
to the press and he said, I was just under the impression that this 10,000
pounds
was
given to his then partner, now husband,
was a
a sort
of bursary and, that Jeffrey was
a very charitable
guy who handed out
these bursaries.
So
If you are hunting
out charitable
you probably
don't
them to people who have recently
stepped down
as an
extremely important cabinet minister and
have
quite a bit
of
cash already.
Do you?
No.
probably
some sort of means testing
that
goes on.
look,
just
loves
spinal
realignment.
A
A man has
gotta have a hobby.
hobby.
So we're having all this discussion about K Starer is, former
director of Public prosecutions.
There's
another
former
director for public prosecutions who I think has got some questions
to answer, which is Ken McDonald.
So there's a very upsetting case of a
a Norwegian
student
back.
In the two thousands was found raped and strangled, having left a club and got into
taxi with the son of a Yemeni billionaire.
So her name's Martin Vic Magnuson and his name's Farouk Abdulhak.
She was found two
days later,
in the basement of this, of his apartment block, by which time he
had got on a
to Cairo and then to Yemen in his father's private
jet.
The Met decided there wasn't enough
to charge.
Basically, I've been trying
to get him
to Britain ever since he confessed to the BB, C that he said it was
a sex game gone wrong, which is a defense that's often used in
situations like this.
But there are emails from the
billionaire father
to Jeffrey Epstein about a meeting that he had with Ken McDonald, which says,
Ken McDonald was paid 20,000 pounds for, consultancy about how they might
possibly facilitate the return of this kid to Britain and make this case.
It was just a sex game gone wrong.
Can I
I
check
this
meeting proposed
was after McDonald's
time
director
of
public prosecutions.
Yeah,
yeah.
He's working for matrix chambers
at this point, so you can find it if you search for matrix chambers in the
files, but it was arranged, essentially, he said, as a lawyer, you end up meeting
lots of people with, with checkered
cvs.
But
nonetheless, I found this, there's a reference to the fact that,
Ken McDonald was helpful advising him because he'd be dealing with
the
D-P-P-I-E.
They'd be, he'd be brokering the terms under which this kid would come back
to Britain
and and face
the music.
And
just the thing that got to me about all of this really
horrible story
about a poor dead woman.
who, you, know whatever happened, she's not, she's never coming back.
There's a whole life that would've been lived there.
And at
the end of one
the emails about this back and forth between the Yemeni Billionaire and
Epstein, it ends after this discussion of what, what's gonna happen with how
was the
Caribbean?
And it's like they're having this chit chat about how, like, how's life on
your yacht in between the discussion about the death of this young woman.
And that to me just really, I think a lot about that line that f Scott
Fitzgerald line at the End of Great Gatsby back, they were careless people.
They broke people and things and retreated back into their vast carelessness.
And that
to me is an
of it.
You're discussing somebody, your, son killed, whether he did that culpably
or as an accident.
And you are also just
catching up with, how's the holiday going on?
Was the weather nice?
Did you get any good snorkeling in it?
Just, it seemed unbelievably callous to me.
and as I say, Ken, McDonald's made a statement about it,
but,
I just, I don't think that reflects
very
well
on
them, frankly.
And this
is just
one
of
things
that you've noticed.
The
amount
of stories in the files
that
are
buried
underneath
it.
cause we
just
doing the politics and
who's up
and
who's
down at the moment, it
is incredible,
how
much
there
probably
is
yet to go
in
these
millions
of files.
The thing that's interesting about these files, whether or not you're
looking at criminal wrongdoing in all these cases, and obviously
you're not in all of them, you
are looking
the, he is a really grim insight into the way that this bit of
the
world works,
essentially.
Yes.
it's
a
claim
that was made a lot
by the MAGA
movement
was that
society
was
being
run by
elite
pedophiles.
It
now
look quite so
absurd,
unfortunately.
they thought it was happening from a pizza parlor
in
Washington.
That's
where
they went
wrong.
but
apart from that, they
were on the money.
Yeah.
can
also say you just find
things that would've been really helpful.
To
know a long time ago.
in a
exchange of emails, we find out that Ghislaine Maxwell, derived
her enormous wealth This from some secret trust funds left to
her by her father.
Oh, good.
So
the public
in Britain, given because he'd stolen all the money from the pensioners,
our money given to bail them out,
could easily
have been paid
by Zla Maxwell outta these secret
funds that weren't secret
to her
friends
in New York.
and, everybody is the poorer.
It was
it was a hundred million, I checked a hundred
million in compensation, was paid by
the government
for the 32,000
former
mirror staff
who had
pensions
stolen by her dad.
Whilst
obviously he was stashing
this money
away.
Her, her
total net worth in 2013
apparently estimated
by JP Morgan.
It's them again.
They're
always
in, the
one of the first, 10 million.
Yeah.
So
the
idea was, I
think up until
now, that the.
that, that that was the
attraction
of Epstein for
her, wasn't it?
That
he was
funding her all
the way.
But
turns
out
yes,
And
it
was this
poor, sad
family,
the
two brothers
whom obviously took me to court for contempt of
court during
the
process.
And
I
have no, beef about that.
But it, for
younger
listeners to the podcast, Maxwell
did Sue privat
eye.
Robert
Maxwell sued
us on
the ground
that
said
he
stealing from his own pension fund.
and
then
he died,
but
not before he'd stashed
enough
away
for
her
not to have
to
live
the
world's
most famous
Peter file.
it, it
is completely,
yes.
Just
as a
for
Peter
Ton, if you
listening,
that's how
you declare
interest.
Yeah, That's
you say what you, there is an online phrase that, punish the villains is
actually quite a good electoral mantra.
You
it's
quite a
powerful saying.
Let's just, should we punish
the villains?
It's
a
good idea.
it doesn't
seem
be,
Dominic Cummings's mantra was fund the NHS
hang
Pedos.
Which also actually probably in this case would, be go
extremely popular with people.
one of the things that's interesting about the opposition parties
though, is I think they're quite keen to have the focus day on
Mandelson,
because then it's just pure, purely
a
Labour scandal.
And
I'm not
sure it is
purely a Labour scandal.
So there's a, an appearance by the Reform Treasurer and Nick Kante if they're not
in the files.
Yes, there is.
again,
of these casual references that, turned up in the files.
And, Nick Kante says that he and his brother bought
this building.
oh, not
was a, any building,
we should say.
No, this is
one.
Hyde Park.
This
is
indeed
one Hyde Park.
But
that
was the subject of a,
an
appearance
in
court by Nick Kante,
in
which
he
said
he
didn't buy it
with
his brother.
His,
brother.
bought it.
and
was
wrong to say
he'd
bought it
' cause he
just provided
various
services,
which
is a bit,
of all court.
he
was the
interior
wasn't he?
Yeah.
it
he Was
that was
that and that, that had
implications for the tax that they paid or didn't pay.
It
did.
And
who's
know
is,
this
email
in the Epstein files right?
Or
is
what
he said in
court under oath?
don't
at
me.
I have no
eye
for
these things.
I
do
think
there's a bit of a
principle
in
political
life that
when
Nigel Farage is slightly quiet for
half
an hour,
you
should look
extremely carefully at what he's
being
quiet
because he has
been
a,
he has made a fair few
points about
this,
but he
has kept
a little bit
quiet because his
chief
money
man
is
now
involved
in
too.
Yeah.
very
relatively tangentially.
But I
think
the
other thing
for his
point
of
view is that
Donald Trump
doesn't
like
a
lot
of focus
on this,
and
he's very
keen
to
preserve
that
relationship too.
Why, would that
be?
Who
could
say the
author of the quote in New York magazine?
Jeffrey likes a lot of women and he likes them
on the
side.
Another person
who simply
didn't
know
what
was,
didn't
on.
no
idea.
absolutely no idea.
no
idea.
at
all.
I
feel
than a lot of the correspondence who into the letters page
of the eye this week saying
that cover made me feel sick
my stomach.
You redacted the wrong bit
when you
when you covered
up
Ty's face.
Yes.
No.
And
a
of people said it put me off
my
Some
our, less,
um.
Busy
said it put me off
by lunch.
But,
I, think
we may be near an apology for that camera Under, So the
of
underpants,
general, that's the only people to pay consequences,
is gonna be you and
Starber isn't.
funny old
world,
isn't
it?
so those are some of the
side
cases
that
received maybe the attention that they deserve.
Maybe we
should now come back to
the,
I'm
afraid
you said, it's
all about
who's up,
who's
down.
But
does
have big
political
Effects Yeah.
Effects story.
there's a huge hunt on it.
The moment for anyone
who thought appointing mandelson was
a
good idea.
' 'cause
they
mysteriously.
They've
all remembered
that
actually they thought this
was a
terrible
idea
all along.
it's the least
of which I thought was David Lamie, who some
David Lamie
was
always against this say
he sauce close to David Lammie
the weekend.
bit.
That sources
close
to David Lammie.
Got
that
out
there.
Yeah.
Took
the time.
but if
this
does, and
again,
we are
recording this before I probably
24 hours of
quite
on news before you hear it.
But if
does
lead to
the sense that kt,
his position is untenable,
then there are all
sorts of people
wondering
who might
be next.
But
there seem to be all sorts of
problems with everyone
as
well.
The problem is, so Angela Rainer, bastion of the soft left now in the
been on the back benches, which has given her a lot of time to network,
has still got the tax investigation.
her second home, declaration, hanging over her.
So, she, that's, that, that might put a pause on some people.
Some people
want
Ed
Milliam
back
and
that's
because
they
were
apparently asleep
during the period 2010, to
The
vote
loser is
what we
Now
He wa I will say he was right
on
Mandelson
when he
was asked about
in 2010.
He said, I think it's
important
to
preserve the
of
dignity in
And
I
think
that
was
okay.
That
was
a
banger,
of
the
few sensible
things
that
has
been, said about, I was
hoping
he said Dig in
retirement,
but
no.
that
been
an extreme.
No,
I
ed Milliman has had a Renaissance and Ed
Renaissance,
if you
will, in, in
that climate
change brief.
But I,
don't
think
there
were
that
many people
who
remember
his
time as
leader of
the
Labour
with
fond
affection.
I don't
think he does.
I don't
think
he,
does.
I
don't think he worked.
no, he hated it.
Yeah, he said everyone was just kept going on about how
he'd stabbed
his brother in the back.
And the problem
with
that was he
stabbed his
brother.
in
back
and
it was entirely fair
to
go on about
it.
And then,
we streeting who's
seen
as
the
kind
of
great
hope of the
Labour,
Whatever you
might call it
Um,
is friends, Has long time.
Been
friends
Peter's friends,
much, much more
with
Peter Mandelson than
Stanmore was ever
personally,
didn't they?
Yeah.
His partner, Joe Dcy, worked for Mandelson at one point.
There was a suggestion in the times that they were on Mandelson Stag do, which is
a concept I would like to investigate.
more At greater length because I wonder what that
involved now.
Sort of heady
mixture of strippers and leaking for briefings
just
in a limo on the bright
and
front,
stripped him
Ms. trousers,
him on the
on the
cover of
private Heart.
It can Happen
to anyone.
So there is, that's the kind of the holding pattern really
is that it's not perfect timing
for any of the
people to move.
Andy Burnham obviously denied his ability to run in the Gorton by election.
So has at the moment
no
route
to
be becoming
Labour leader
unless he
could get
kiss down to very
quickly
Eni
noble him
and
it from
the
Lords.
But that's probably
not
gonna
happen.
there will
be a
seat
going
will there.
That's true.
There's a
red
an,
there's Aman free.
free.
uh,
after
long, But the
the end of the vetting will now take much, much longer.
'cause they'll have to
take that much more seriously.
might be
difficult to turn around in time.
Can
come back to
my point with we street,
which I keep
banging
back 'cause everyone else
to figure, forget he's got a majority of
528
in
Elford.
I
there's
a really, strong
that
at the next general election he
will be out.
What happens
if you are the leader
and then the prime minister and then you lose your seat?
I know
never happens.
you can't be
be minister.
the last person
that got close to happening was, Joe Sw.
anyone
her lib
de leader in the 2017 was this.
Yeah.
she went out
in one
then back in again in the another.
Yes.
Yeah.
So she was
out as leader, you you know
of that morning.
if your party has
got the majority,
would be
quite
at the for Labour but, um, and,
and,
your leader
their seat, then
you've got a
of a problem I
know I'm a
record on this, but I dunno, there really are that many safe seats anymore.
If you look at Joe Sw in being
a very
example, that SMP post Indie referendum, 2015 tidal wave
of yellow was extraordinary.
Ti used to be the safest seat, Goran old seat, safest seat.
Gordon Brown Old's seat safe seat.
And that went to SMP.
just these, the swings were vast and I think that
same thing
happen at the next election here.
I don't know
anyone whose seat looks,
nailed on.
said Farage.
I
the thing is it would be trending in his direction, right?
That's the thing.
Any, maybe I should modify that and say any Labour MP with
majority under 20,000 should
be
thinking
should put a bit of a shift in at the constituency surgery.
Yeah.
no holding candidate?
What there's in the sort of like the kind of, when they have a Pope and they
pick a really old one and then they just go, give us another six months.
We'll have a think about this.
You
can tell that things are
because there was a very brief moment of excitement where someone seems to
have briefed a lot of lobby reporters.
Maybe it'll be Al
Carnes.
Now,
And I know the first question
on your
lips,
Which who?
is Al Kanes?
I
I think of him very much as Labour's,
Mel Stride.
Brilliant.
He's not Labour's male.
Stride.
And
who's Mel
Stride?
Shell Chancellor.
Cute, Of course.
But,
he's
Spice
Yeah.
I fear that Al Kas might have had a similar, had one drink with a
journalist in which he went, if the ball came looser in the back
of
the scrum.
And this has become a very brief, Kanes mania.
But we'll see.
Maybe by the time we finish
recording
this
podcast,
he'll
be
our prime
minister.
The
joke
will be on me.
the thing I think will happen is that the party will snap back like
very much like Lord Mandelson's
nickel
to its, its default state, which is
soft left.
So that's where the,
that's
the, it is in comfort
zone stuff.
Yeah.
But that's where the, that's where the gravity of
the
is.
So Shaban Mahmud has put through immigration reforms that are probably
broadly popular with the country at large.
Very
unpopular with the
mps, very unpopular with
the membership.
The composition of the membership has changed since 2020.
'cause quite a lot of them have left to join the Greens for
a. start, But it's still in
where you'd
to be socially liberal, pro-European.
So with Street, for example, has been talking up his pro-European
credentials because he
knows, in other respects on
sort of cultural issues He's more in the Blair, the hated Blairite Zone.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
whereas Angela Rainer is, for example, has extremely strong links with
trade unions, which are traditionally a very good thing when one is
standing for the, Labour leadership.
But there's, there's sort of something for all of those involved, this
is not the ideal time for them to
move, essentially.
And
yeah,
think that even as late as last week, the suspicion had been
that something would happen after
the May local elections.
and that's why Anna
swa.
has put that distance, because he's
facing the
SNP,
uh,
in what is
to be a pretty brutal battle up in Scotland.
And he wants to put a bit of distance from himself in the way that Douglas
Ross distance himself from the unpopular Boris Johnson in England.
that's always been.
Ever since the Ros actually, to go back to the Miller Band era about whether
or not the, mp, the Scottish Labour leader the kind of leader of a branch
office or a fully fledged leader in
their own right.
It has been a
a really difficult
when the party in power, like the center, the Westminster
leader of Labour is unpopular.
What do you do as the regional leaders?
And the Welsh Labour will be having exactly that discussion too, because
again, they're expecting to lose their majority in the Senate for the first time.
ev they
won't be the biggest party in
in Wales
since, for the first time since
the
evolution.
So there's a big incentives for people
in the regions and Nations to
kind
in the same way that there is for Andy Burnham to say, actually, I'm
I'm getting off this
ship.
And I guess there's big incentives as well for people nationally who are possible
contenders for the Prime ministership to
not want to take
on when that's gonna be
your immediate thing is a very difficult
election up in Manchester
and then those local
results, it's kinda yeah, no
care.
have those and then that's a much better point at which to come
a
in a very
cynical
way,
Yeah.
And also the one thing that has plagued the star administration is the
perceived and indeed actual lack of
a
plan.
the
very panicky
winter fuel allowance.
Oh no, we're not pit reform.
Oh no, we're not,
no, we're not gonna raise taxes.
Okay.
We'll get through these sneaky ones instead.
That actually, which of the
other
candidates
has got a kind of, have
they already
in place a fully formed, do, what do they think the problems are with
Britain and how would they solve them and how would they get the rest
of the parliamentary Labour party
to vote for
solutions?
That's, Luke Trill does a lot from more in common.
He does a lot of focus group polling.
and He said the emotion he sees now is not
apathy, but
nihilism.
People just think everything is screwed and they
doning,
think anyone can fix it.
And I think that is also a bit of a, an inhibition on some of the candidates too.
And that's
your initial point is.
why this scandal may have
bigger
than it should have is 'cause people feel so badly about politicians
and
plays
the narrative.
look at that.
It couldn't get worse than that,
could it?
What we all believed, is true.
None of them are
good.
Yeah.
What does Britain's future look
like?
I'm off
to California
week and
say
what you like
about
It's good.
permanent.
Yeah,
but
Which
no, you're
it
too.
It's not always bloody raining.
And actually
people are excited about the future.
there's a sense that things are actually changing and the world is improving and
there's a, yes, they're all mad peptides and, worrying about the antichrist,
but the least like that's a, that's.
Quite a classy problem to have the antichrist.
Our problem is like chronic low productivity and a,
welfare dependency ratio.
That's, that's
really troublesome.
So
I think
that's, I
just
think there
a,
that
pervasive
sense
of doom.
we've
reached,
I
refuse
to share,
we've
reached
our
traditional cheerful
point
to
end on.
so
I
think we should
wrap
it
up there.
Yeah, sorry.
it's all right for me.
I'll be in
California.
that's
it
for this episode
of 94.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll
be back
again
a
fortnight
with
another one.
in the meantime.
private eye is available on newsstands,
but
if
don't want people to
see
carrying around a picture of
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fronts, you can get a subscription which is delivered to you.
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all there
until then, thanks again for listening
and
we'll see you next time.
And
as
always, to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.
Bye for
now.