>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today I'm speaking to Edwin,

who is a Catholic therapist and involved in

Catholic music ministry. This conversation is

going to stay with me because Edwin talks about

the need for healing, but also about that need to

thrive. And, no matter where we are in our faith

journey, we need that too.

So, Edwin, let's start from the beginning. How did

you get involved in Catholic liturgical music?

>> Edwin: So, at the age of 15 or 16, I went to my first

youth 2000 event, which is this Catholic youth

movement focused around the Eucharist. And, I

offered to help with the music there and was told,

no, we've been practising and you don't know the

songs and that kind of thing. And, I think that

was an understandable response, but I didn't quite

know what to make of it at the time. But then a

few months later, the same lady that I offered my

keyboard skills to reminded, me that there was a

smaller regional event coming up near where I

lived. So she pretended, I think, not to know that

I could play the piano and said, oh, well, do you

want to come and help with music at this event? So

I did that, and that was really my entry point

into music ministry. Up until then, I'd just been

playing around on the piano at home in my family,

and not really, offering music in a way that was

publicly on display.

>> Julia: So how did you go from, like, leading music into

therapy?

>> Edwin: Also kind of along the same track in a way,

because with the youth work I was doing, which

included the confirmation programme, social

events, I was running, like, a youth choir, as a

voluntary project for the teenagers get involved

in, and then they would, let's say, go off for an

apprenticeship or to uni, or they'd Sort of

disappear for a while and then come back and have

questions and want to talk. so I found myself in

the position, more and more of people just wanted

to sort through stuff. and at a certain point

realised it would be good if I'm in this position,

to know what I'm doing a bit better, to get

skilled up. and at that point I'd probably. Yes, I

had been in my own personal therapy, which was,

really the result of having an experience of

burnout, after working hard. So there were three

strands really. My involvement in youth ministry,

where young people were coming back and wanting to

talk about stuff. Then my own personal therapy and

then I think, just a general interest in the idea

of like, human growth and what it takes for a

person to grow. And that might include healing

from wounds that they've sustained along the way,

and understanding themselves better and who

they're called to be.

>> Julia: And how do you think therapy and faith fit

together?

>> Edwin: I suppose from my perspective, I think that they

fit really well. But I don't know if that's

something that a lot of people give consideration

to. And I probably wouldn't have done either if I

hadn't necessarily like, if. If I got into

therapy, being in therapy myself. I guess what I

see when I look out at the scene in the church is

that there's just different experiences for

people. Some people, they like to come to church

on a Sunday and it's part of their routine and

maybe they get something just from knowing that

they're connecting with God in that way. Other

people do see it as a place where they can learn,

I guess. other people see it as a thing of I want

to become a better person or let's focus on,

service, which is all of these things are so

important as different aspects. And I suppose

maybe I would understand that underpinning a lot

of that would be this idea of growth. that if,

when we look at even the natural world, there's a

process of things growing and, there's that saying

isn't there? If it's not changing, then it's dead.

so things that just evolve and move and shift and

shape. and so I think faith in a sense could be a,

help to that process that's occurring anyway. And,

it could also course correct when the process of

growth on its own, given that we live in a fallen

world, can kind of go astray sometimes, especially

if we don't understand things well or if we're

hurt by things or make our own mistakes. so I

think therapy and a deep life of faith actually

really are working towards the same end.

>> Julia: I was reflecting on how I think quite often people

see churches as a place for, like, the perfect

people to go. Like when you, when you're getting

everything right, then you'll go. You'll be the

person that goes to church. But actually, and Pope

Francis said it, he called us like, a field

hospital and he talks about how church should be

about people who's, like, for people who need

their hearts healing. And so actually, churches

are full of people who have gone through all kinds

of different experiences, but that kind of

conflicts with that, traditional viewpoint. And

actually, quite often, I think traditionally

people maybe, or the way I've seen people, if

you're at church, you've got to show that

everything's going well and everything's going

good and you can't show that side of being broken.

And so therefore, quite often people might think,

oh, therapy is for. Not for me, even if it is

meant to be for them. And actually maybe they

think it conflicts with their faith.

Is there anything you want to say about, how we

should be challenging that viewpoint?

>> Edwin: Well, actually, something you've just said does

speak to some of my experience in client work

where. Because I mostly work with Catholic clients

who sought me out as a Catholic therapist. but for

some people, I have encountered a kind of point

where they stop and say, I think I'll take this to

prayer now. and even so, for some of those

clients, there's this kind of separation almost of

like what I can deal with with God and through my

prayer and the sacraments perhaps. and then stuff

that I might deal with more professionally. I

think some of it has to do maybe with. With a view

of therapy as well as being quite medicalized or

being quite.

>> Julia: Clinical.

>> Edwin: And there's. It's just hard actually to understand

the field. So. So even when inquiries come in,

sometimes people address me as doctor. and maybe

people don't really know the difference between a

psychotherapist and a psychiatrist and a

psychologist.

>> Julia: do you want to give us a brief difference?

>> Edwin: Well, so a psychiatrist is a doctor who's gone

through their full medical training and they

specialise in psychiatry. And only a psychiatrist

in the UK can prescribe meds, or make a clinical

diagnosis of, like, a mental health condition.

That would be a cluster of symptoms that kind of

have a label attached. a psychotherapist. I think

the word psyche in Greek is the word soul, isn't

it? And Then therapy is the Greek word for

healing. So I'm a soul healer, apparently. but it

really, like another word would be counsellor. So

it's a person who might be able to hopefully help

skillfully, encourage someone to just discover

their own answers and sift through things with

them to provide an empathic supportive framework

in which to do that. there's so many different

approaches to therapy. Psychologists, I think

there's a difference between, apparently if you

study a psychology degree, you can call yourself a

psychologist in the UK without sort of breaking

any guidelines or going to jail. if you're a

clinical psychologist that does come with a

specific training that you need and then I think

in that case you're then qualified to undertake

certain tests, you can do certain types of

research.

>> Julia: That, ah, kind of thing that's really helpful to

know because I've, I've heard those terms quite

often and not knowing what the difference is.

I want to go back to what you were just saying

about you have a lot of Catholic clients who come

to you because you're Catholic. Because I was, I

was again thinking about that must be really

important for people if to have a therapist who

understands your faith, beliefs, even like,

obviously you're saying Catholic for Catholic, but

even someone might be another Christian

denomination to have somebody who has a similar

view of, of what God means to them must be really

important.

>> Edwin: Yeah, that's it. And I think there's research that

kind of, looks at the benefits and the

disadvantages of similarity or difference between

the client and the therapist. So, for example, a

female client, a female therapist, does that help

or could that at certain points be

disadvantageous? So I think there is a risk maybe

for Catholic clients with a Catholic therapist

that assumptions are unexamined. because it's kind

of like, oh, we both obviously see everything the

same way because we're both Catholic. And that

isn't necessarily true. There's a lot of people

who see things very differently within the

Catholic Church. but I will ask clients, when they

inquire, like, what does it mean to you that

you're seeking therapy with a Catholic therapist?

and for some of them it might be just to start the

session with a short prayer. most of them I find

it's a combination of, when I use certain, like,

jargon that, that the therapist will understand,

you know, so if I'm mentioning the rosary or

confession or something, that I'm not going to be

the therapist who says, could you explain what

that means to me? And using up session time and

then a combination of that and then also this idea

of, a common worldview or a common understanding

of the human person, particularly when it comes to

issues that might like, border on the moral or go

into the moral realm, like addictions and that

kind of thing that they'd want to know. Their

therapist isn't saying, well, maybe your religion

is your problem, you know, which sadly, some

people have encountered, in working with non

Christian therapists.

>> Julia: I wonder if there's kind of a suspicion between

the faith world and the, like, therapy world.

Like, if there's a. If they're kind of seen as

they should be two separate sections. You should

either be in the faith world or you should be in

the faith world. No, M. Therapy world should

either be in the faith world or you should be in

the therapy world.

>> Edwin: Yeah, yeah, I have encountered a bit of that

suspicion. not usually from people who are seeking

my services because they've crossed that

threshold. I have. Okay, so I've met a lot of

priests who are so glad to know they're a

therapist they can refer people to. I have met m.

A few priests who I think, don't really understand

what the boundaries would be. And they may feel a

little bit threatened by the idea that people

would be coming for pastoral support and possibly

including confessing their sins. Like, you know,

not in a sacramental sense. But if someone's

saying if they're dealing with an addiction to

pornography, for example, which is quite common

when I work with, then that's going to involve

like, talking about what they've done. That in

their framework is like a bad choice. So I think

some priests, yeah, there might be a sense of

feeling like it's a bit beyond the boundaries of

what they're used to and their understanding of

their role. and I think I've also encountered

amongst non clergy, let's say, a suspicion of

therapy that could be a little bit like, well,

surely your faith should provide everything you

need, like just the bread and butter of the

sacraments and regular church attendance and maybe

daily prayer. and so therefore that kind of like

underscores that sense of therapy being a much

more clinical, medicalized thing that only if,

like, you're really seriously struggling with

something, and you probably would get referred

through your GP and stuff, rather than. Actually,

if I have a bit of money that I want to invest in

this as a way to grow, then I can do that.

>> Julia: And how, when you say way to grow, how do people

grow in therapy?

>> Edwin: Yeah, that's such a Great question.

I think a word that I like to use a lot is

integration. And so I have this kind of image

which, of course, like, every analogy fails at a

certain point, but of a jigsaw or, like a LEGO

model. and the idea that for that thing to be

whole, every part needs to be present and

correctly aligned. Like, if you just scatter

jigsaw pieces on the floor, then every part is

present, but they're not put together. or you

could put them all together, but if there's one

piece missing, then it's not complete. And so the

idea of integration, being that we have these

different parts of ourselves. And that's, I think,

you know, an element of, like, Catholic

anthropology, particularly from St. Thomas

Aquinas, who studied, really or, like, used his

intuition to say we've got a mind and a will and

these passions or emotions and a, memory and

different faculties. And, of course, our body not

separating out that as a part of our person. And

the idea that in the fall, lots of things came out

of alignment with each other. So our relationship

with others and with God and with the whole

universe and within ourselves is kind of

disrupted. And integration being that thing of

bringing things back into harmony and into

realignment. So an example of that, because that

all sounds quite theoretical perhaps, would be,

let's say I have, like, an unacknowledged anger

towards someone or a situation that's beyond my

awareness. But I just find myself experiencing,

let's say, somatic symptoms of, I don't know,

stomach ulcers or something really serious like

that. then it would be bringing that anger into my

awareness so that I can look at it and accept it

and understand how best to channel it. and so

therefore, the integration and that growth towards

wholeness, like, excuse the analogy, you know, the

full jigsaw puzzle being put together. yeah.

>> Julia: With your music background. I've just had a song

come to my brain, which is Casting Crowns, and

they have a song about, I think it's called

Thrive. But it's about the idea that we're all

meant to be. God is calling us to thrive rather

than just survive. and that. As you were talking,

I was just thinking, yeah, that is what we're.

That's what we're meant to be doing, right? We're

not meant to be numbing it down. We're not meant

to just be going from one thing to the next. We're

meant to be living our, our best life. For that

awful saying that people say quite a lot but that

is what it is, isn't it?

>> Edwin: Yeah. And of course there's lots of data that

might show that people who've experienced a

certain kind of trauma, let's say, unlikely to

ever be completely free of like the, you know, the

PTSD symptoms. But it's not necessarily for us to

set the limits on that for an individual person.

So it's something I think about holding hope

honestly in a world in which we maybe feel like

too much rests on our shoulders that we've got to

be in control of. That's quite a responsibility.

>> Julia: So in your own experience as you were going

through personal therapy, how did you integrate

your faith into that?

>> Edwin: Yeah, that's a great question. Well I feel blessed

that I didn't have to search too hard to find a

Catholic therapist. towards the end of my time

working with her, she was retiring from that work

early. Otherwise I might still be with her now.

but that was helpful because of the things I

mentioned about the Catholic jargon. She wasn't

kind of wondering what I was going on about. and I

was still working very much in ministry and so she

kind of understood some of that church context as

well. but I think in terms of the work I was

doing, there were big parts of myself that I'd

kind of shut off from awareness or kept hidden,

because it didn't really fit within the image I

had of myself and I wanted others to have of me

being, you know, in full time ministry within the

church and yeah, the kind of person that should

look like in terms of how they've got their life

together, always like running on full energy, not

dealing with any brokenness behind the scenes and

that just wasn't true. and so I think it was

helpful then to be working with a Catholic

therapist who understood some of that contextual

stuff. to be able to go through the process that

had I not been Catholic, she probably would very

skillfully have still been able to assist me with.

but for me, because of that being what I was

bringing my own faith as well, it just got folded

in really neatly. I'd say thank m God.

>> Julia: Yeah, I was just thinking it's not to do with

therapy, but I find it really helpful that my

personal trainer is also Catholic because I can

say to him like, oh, I had to go to math and

that's done this and so I can kind of understand

from that how helpful it is that particularly that

Catholic jargon to, to have somebody who

understands it as well.

>> Julia: So where did you feel God's presence in your

journey?

>> Edwin: If I look back, probably in different ways along

the way. I think something I commonly hear people

talk about is, how present they feel God to be

when they're either doing really well or when

they're struggling. And it seems that for some

people, it's like they feel him closer or they

call upon him more when things aren't going well

and then they sort of forget about him when things

are going well. And I say that because I think for

me it may have been some of that. but one of the

things I Learned from youth2000 or one of the

things they recommended at least was really

developing a personal prayer life. That would mean

just taking time every day to pray. and I think

often in the mix of other things they'd recommend,

it might have kind of got a little bit left by the

wayside. But, I'd say by God's grace, I have been

someone that's taken time to pray virtually every

day for a very long time. And so I think because

of that it might have tempered a little bit that

possibility of feeling God present only at certain

times, let's say, when I'm struggling or whatever.

Because there was that discipline that his grace

was helping me to follow of acknowledging him more

regularly. but yeah, around the time of my burnout

and going into therapy, there was a new depth of

prayer for me, that really just involved having to

really receive his unconditional love in these

places that felt so shockingly suddenly exposed of

like I am anxious and not sleeping and I've had to

cancel loads of work and what might people think

about that? And just my whole self image really

was like shattering, in a way that ultimately I

think was probably helpful and needed. Quite

painful at the time. so very much feeling like in

relationships, even with family and friends and

people I didn't know so well through the church,

that maybe how I was in relation to them was

changing. And so there was definitely like a

deeper, connection I had to form that God was

offering to me to kind of reach out and take hold

of. Of just knowing it was enough to be in

connection with him, which helps really alleviate

I think a lot of the terror or that might be too

strong. But definitely the anxiety around what was

happening. Because it was so unexpected that I

would just crash like that.

>> Julia: Is it good that you had that connection in that

time? Because I was just thinking, about when

you're in ministry, it's so easy to just be like,

well, I'm doing this for God. And to not have that

connection because you're like, oh, I'm doing this

and this is for God and I'm doing this and that's

for God. And actually you're not building that

personal connection. And it's good that you still

had that even in that time of like, where you got

to your burnout as well.

So what have you learned from your own experience

of therapy?

>> Edwin: I don't know how I could sum it up, but one of the

sort of unpleasant things I learned in a way is

that it's got to be an ongoing journey. I think I.

When I started therapy, because of, how unexpected

it was to be in this position of just not being

able to carry on with work. I. I probably saw it

as a task and that once I was through it, then I'd

be kind of back to where I was and I'd be good to

go. and I think maybe one of the things that I

learned in therapy was that growth is an ongoing

process. And there were definitely these kind of

moments where it felt discouraging to recognise,

oh, I thought I was past that way of feeling about

myself or thinking about this or that or dealing

with others. And I'm kind of back here again, but

like realising it that with each other in a sense,

like iteration or like going round the merry go

round of growth, that things would gradually

change. So rather than seeing it in too much of a

linear way, which I was very used to, and I think

that was part of the drive and just the way I

would focus on ministry, like everything was a

task to be accomplished and it was more of a kind

of sense of being and like a gradual unfolding.

And so I think I was glad in the end to recognise

that if it's the truth, because then it's more

comfortable to just operate within it rather than

still trying to be this driven, linear person. And

I find that with clients who come, they often want

to know how long is this going to take and what

are the things I can do, what are the tasks that I

can do or the homework I can take away. And an

element of that can be helpful in therapy. But I

think there's also room, particularly in our

culture, which is so driven and so utilitarian for

kind of slowing things down. And, and also looking

at the therapeutic relationship as kind of a bit

of an avenue for, testing what, what connections

and relationships are like.

>> Julia: You, you've just reminded me that when. And I know

they're very different things. When I started

having spiritual direction, I used to like see

prayer the same, like it's here to there. But

actually ah, first I would have conversations

about this is what's tripping me up or this is

what challenging me. And then however many months

later I'd be like it's and my spiritual director

would be like, it's not that you're going back, is

that you're going in a spiral and ah, it's maybe

that you're coming back to whether you, but you're

deeper down and your growth is different because

you're in a different place. And I guess is the

easy thing of you could say in therapy is you're

thinking, as you said, I'm starting it today and

in six weeks time I'll be perfect, I'll be better.

But actually you don't know what's going to happen

in six weeks time or six months time or six years

time that's to be going, going to come back and

you're going to have to dig deeper into whatever

you've been discussing in therapy or in spiritual

direction.

I feel like I should ask though, what is the

difference between therapy and spiritual

direction?

>> Edwin: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it

maybe depends on the way that a person would see

therapy. Some people see it as a set of

communication skills like a container into which

you can put various different things. And

certainly I know of people who've trained in

spiritual direction who learn some of the kind of

basic counselling skills. I think so. I've worked

with different spiritual directors personally

myself as well and some of them have taken an

approach of like you can bring anything here, it

doesn't have to be only be about your prayer life

or like how you feel in your relationship with

God. So if you're, yeah, just like not getting on

well at work or there's a particular person in

your life, you want to improve the relationship,

you can bring that here as well. But it might be

that something around the approach that's taken in

that, ah, yeah, I'm not sure I honestly would

know. and I think spiritual direction probably as

a field, although it is much like more long

standing through history, it may be less focused

and has been less kind of studied in that

analytical sense that therapy now has been, it's

developed just over, you know, the last 150 years

or whatever, into all these different modes of

therapy and lots of research studies and stuff

where I Feel like spiritual direction has maybe

remained more in the realm of the mysterious. And

a bit of like, well, we've just done this for

centuries. and they're both forms of

accompaniment. I suppose for me, as a Catholic

therapist, maybe the sense in which I'm just

holding whatever the client wants to bring about

their relationship with their faith and with God,

that would be included. But I guess I do feel like

in my practise I have an internal sense of when

we're kind of going right up to the border of

therapy and then moving into spiritual direction.

That's where I would acknowledge that with a

client and kind of pause or inquire then if they

haven't already said about where they're getting

that spiritual accompaniment from. Yeah. So I

don't know. That sounds as clear as mud.

>> Julia: Maybe I need to ask the spiritual director what

they think the difference between spiritual

direction and therapy is. As.

>> Edwin: Well, it could. Yeah. And that. And then you

might. Yeah, because you could ask a different

therapist and they'd say something different from

me. But also you could find spiritual directors, I

think, who. For whom it's very much.

Well, we're talking about how your prayer life is

going and. And, like, where you are on the journey

of, you know, the dark night of the soul or

whatever, those different, Or even some of the,

St. Ignatius's rules for discernment and, that

kind of thing.

>> Julia: So therapy is about looking inwards. And You've

just mentioned St. Ignatius, and in Jesuit

spirituality, one of the exercises we have is the

Examen, which is very much looking inwards is

looking at how your day's gone. So what does

looking inwards actually look like in daily life?

>> Edwin: Yeah, so I think, making that practise of a daily

exam and, prayer, that could be one way. For some

people, it's as simple as starting with something

like keeping a mood diary, which could be, I don't

know, three times a day, writing down what their

mood is. And that can be therapeutically useful

for people who, very much, like, occupy the mood

they're currently in. So if they're not feeling

great, their impression is it's always like this.

Or if they're feeling great, they might feel like

that's just going to be the case forever and ever.

And by jotting one or two words down, a couple of

times a day, or some people, they might, like, do

it close to a meal time to help them remember

three times a day, then it actually just gives

them a more accurate view of what's going on. So I

think it's something about finding little ways of,

identifying the movements of our psyche, our soul,

our emotions and maybe our thought patterns as

well. firstly, to get a bit more of an objective

view of them. and I think that some of that

objectivity also comes from other people who. We.

Who earn our trust enough over time. It could be

support people or good friends or maybe some close

family members or partner, to be able to, to say,

here's what I'm seeing in you and, for us to be

open to hearing that. I do think that whilst

looking inwards is so important and that our

culture very much encourages us to look out at,

like, what we want to achieve and what we want to

go for. and then sometimes the idea of looking

inward can, can seem a bit self indulgent, like

just endless introspection. And of course we don't

want that. But I'm a big believer in communion

with other people, essentially because I think,

you know, God has designed us in his image and

likeness and He Himself as a communion of persons.

So that idea of. Actually I learned the truth

about myself partly because it's given to me by

other people, and they may be inaccurate in what

they're reflecting back. But then over time I'm

also going to realise that this person doesn't see

me accurately. So in the end I feel like it all

kind of shakes down, to a good way of like,

fleshing out our identity. So it's perhaps one of

the ways that in therapy and spiritual direction,

having that person accompanying us, is useful

because actually we're getting another human

being's perspective and then we've got that to

weigh up as well. Not only our own kind of looking

inwards, so looking by ourselves and then allowing

others to kind of help us, look inwards as well by

hearing them convey to us what they see.

>> Julia: So what do you wish Catholics understood better

about therapy?

>> Edwin: I think I wish that Catholics understood that

therapy in the context of where we're at today

culturally, can just be beneficial, where maybe

for the remnants of our, thinking, you know,

within the Church, that therapy remains this thing

that's kind of reserved for people who are really

struggling, and some of the taboo or the stigma

around that, of, you know, like, it must mean that

someone's character isn't really strong enough to

cope, or whatever. but actually just in view, I

would say, of where the world is at and how things

are quite polarised and in Spite of all the really

great, like, technological advancements and

including in science and culture and that kind of

thing, that there's a lot of issues, there's a lot

of problems. And that I think, also perhaps partly

because of the world of technology in which we

live, some of those problems can feel very close

by, even if they're hundreds of miles away. We're

looking at them a few inches from our face on a

screen and just thinking about what that's doing

to our kind of consciousness and our awareness of

what's important in life. And, So, yeah, I guess

I'm thinking that I wish Catholics would see it as

something that could be helpful, at this point,

where maybe in other times in history it wouldn't

have been so necessary for so many people.

>> Julia: And do you think that the viewpoint of Catholics

as, again, a generalisation is changing on that?

Do you think people are now starting to see it as

more helpful?

>> Edwin: I think I've seen that, yeah. So, I'm 42 this

week. and most of my clients are younger than me.

I have a few that are older than me. and so, given

that most of them are young, I also feel like the

generational difference plays a part, that

Catholic or not, younger people are just more

aware of mental health issues and, like, more

comfortable to talk about all of that stuff. So it

would make sense that Catholic young adults are in

that boat as well. and, yeah, so. And since I've

started in practise as well, the number of

inquiries has just been going up and up. So

whether that's something to do with, the idea of

Catholic therapy crossing people's mind a bit

more, or even, you know, the websites that

Catholic therapists list on, becoming more visible

through the search engines, I'm not sure. but I do

feel like it's. It's opening up a bit more. and

certainly, obviously, clients come individually.

They don't know who my other clients are, but you

find a mixture of people who are quite tentative

of, like, is this really sort of, like, therapy

worthy and inverted commas, and people who might

much more see it as, like, a service that they're

accessing a bit like a personal trainer or, I

don't know, a life coach or something like that.

so there are people who want to come and just kind

of explore where they're at in life, their

identity or transitions. and other people who come

more with a kind of presenting issue that they

really feel is an obstacle in their life of faith

or just in their life generally.

>> Julia: I was going to ask you, but you've answered it

already. Is there a difference between the

different generations, between, like, older

generations having more of an issue with therapy

and the generations younger, like Jen said, being

more aware of their mental health and therefore

accessing therapy more. So what do you wish you'd

known earlier about becoming a whole person?

>> Edwin: I wish I'd known earlier that, every part of a

person is welcome, even if it needs some working

through or some kind of honing and refining and

maybe, like, the rough edges rounding off. and I

think a lot of that has to do with my own family

culture, you know, like my personal story, issues

that were there and. And perhaps culturally,

growing up in mid Wales, going to primary school

in the little village. I'd say also the context of

modern Western culture and then maybe also the

British thing of having a brave face or keeping

things hidden, stiff upper lip and all that. So I

think I wish I'd known earlier, that, yeah,

everything can find a voice. Even if once you've

done that and you've kind of said, okay, I'm

actually feeling this about that or whatever, that

you can put that to one side and move through it,

but, like, it can be acknowledged, it can be seen,

it can be brought into the light.

>> Julia: And what are you grateful for?

>> Edwin: I'm really grateful to live in Devon. I've just

moved there a year and a half ago. I live on the

coast and I am so privileged and blessed to be

able to get to silent prayer in eucharistic

adoration every day if I am able to wake up on

time. I'm very grateful, yeah, for the journey

that I've been on. And I think what it means, what

it's meant over time is that I am living more

fully in reality on its own terms. So there's less

of a sense of. I've got to kind of exert effort

here and there to, like, find out what my groove

is that I can move through.

>> Edwin: So, yeah, I think on a deep level, I just feel

more settled and, more at home. Not only in Devon

and in the lovely house that I rent, but also at

home in myself and at home in the universe. And

I'm really grateful for that. Of course, life is

never perfect, but what I'm experiencing as time

goes on is that the trials and the sometimes, you

know, real extreme trials that come along, can

kind of be born with in a different way. and I'm

grateful for that. And I hope that what it means

is that I'm able to kind of, offer something then

to people who are going through things as well,

which I'm also grateful for. It's a privilege to

be in that role.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation is going to stay with me

because of Edwin talking about the relationship

between therapy and spiritual direction. How about

you? We'd love to hear how Edwin's story resonated

with you. And why not also tell us if you're

facing an experience you wish you knew how to look

at differently. It might just be something we can

help with. You can find out more about this and

other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again

for listening. I hope you'll join me again next

time on Things I Wish I Knew.