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Hello and welcome to Power of a show about design operating at many levels of zoom from
thoughtful detail through to transformation in our organization, society and the world.

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My name is Andy Polaine.

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I am a design leadership coach, designer, educator and writer.

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My guest today is Alan Colville, a design leader helping government, public and private
sectors think differently to find human centered and design led ways to thrive.

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He's been an independent consultant since 2006 and is currently helping the UK Met Office
design their data services.

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I met Alan recently at the Service Design Global Conference in Helsinki where he gave an
excellent talk about embracing conflict which really resonated with a lot of the

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conference guys.

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Alan, welcome to Power of 10.

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Thank you, Andy.

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Yeah, it's a privilege to be here.

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So I want to talk about the talk because it really did resonate with a lot of people.

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It's been one of the ones that many people have listed and said it was one of my favorite
ones.

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But before that, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to where you
are now.

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Okay, so I'm going to pick out just some, I think, transformational moments because I've
been doing this for quite some time.

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I'm a designer by qualification.

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My degree is in graphic design, actually.

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And I started working mostly in print, loving the smell of paper and the process of
printing and really enjoying that.

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But of course, the internet started to happen, didn't it?

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And I realized fairly quickly I was being asked to design things that I didn't fully
understand.

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interaction around.

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in 1999, I went and did a Masters in, I guess, Interactive Media was the title of it at
the time, but it had a lot of human computer interaction.

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And I think that was the point I can clearly remember becoming user centred.

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And it being the thing that I carry through and the red thread, essentially throughout the
rest of my career and what I do mostly today as well.

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From there, there wasn't anybody in Ireland where I'm from doing, I guess, usability,
information architecture.

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So I harassed uh a company in the UK to give me a job and they did.

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They're CX Partners who are still based in Bristol.

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And that was a huge change for me because I began to see the possibilities and work with
other disciplines and see

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the work getting carried through.

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And from there, working in an agency, of course, around 2001, we had the dot com boom and
things started to change and all agencies then started to let people go.

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And I moved from there and took up a position in a cable company in-house, was, you know,
some people consider it to be an unusual move.

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understood that maybe I'd continue agency side.

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But I think the four years I spent in that company were transformational.

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I had a role as a commercial manager, but I was a commercial manager with a superpower
because I saw things from a user-centered point of view in 2002, 2003 when not everybody

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did.

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And it gave me a way of really developing products that had impact actually.

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And then within the organization was identified and rose very quickly as somebody that
could do something and deliver things in a way that worked.

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From there, was, I guess the next most important piece was I was headhunted to go to BT.

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So the British Telecom, because they were designing a TV service.

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So their first foray into TV.

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So I was heading up the customer experience team there.

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And I think about a year and a half into that, I was pretty much burning out.

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know, dumb roles risen really quickly, but felt it wasn't quite working for me.

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In a huge organization trying to be user centered, it was really hard.

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It was like trying to steer a tanker.

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So I decided to leave and was offered a gardening leave.

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in case I went to a competitor, which I took and my wife took us.

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Let's go traveling for a while.

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So the three of us, my wife and my 18 month old went traveling for a year.

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I think that was really transformational for me because I think I hadn't the balance right
in work and life.

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I hadn't really seen my 18 month old.

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But that allowed me then to kind of crave that flexibility.

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since then, that's 2006, I've been an independent consultant.

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working for myself in, you know, mostly in private sector, I would say.

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But actually in the past seven years, and this is another transformational piece, wanting
to work for organisations with stakeholders and with purpose more so, and less for

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shareholders.

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But I remember coming into government and public sector and being really surprised by
design.

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It didn't look, sound, feel, work as I...

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It was, and I think actually that was the point where it started to surface how
disagreement was entirely different, how uh harmony was valued over uh constructive

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disagreement.

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And so that was probably the biggest challenge I had.

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uh In addition to the pace, the pace was very different to private sector or, know, for
agencies where you're working on pitches.

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And it's really high-paced, high-measured.

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Yeah, and that kind of takes me to today where I'm working still for a government
organization uh using user-centered design to help them uh understand users better and

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deliver better services.

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And out of that, kind of uh the pace difference, mean, slower in public services or you
said different.

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That's slower.

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I definitely think slower.

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So you have to adapt to that.

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Inside work and outside of work, I'm quite energetic.

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And I think I had to think about, what do you do with that slower pace?

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What are the things that you can focus on in addition, because you're moving slower?

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And that's where I started to think about the more human qualities actually, that you can
spend a little bit of time because I guess in the higher pace, you're focused very much on

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the practice.

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the primary and secondary, the competencies and stuff, but less time to engage because
actually it became, if you're moving slower, keeping people engaged, keeping them moving

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with you when you're traveling at a slower pace.

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And sometimes it can be glacial and just managing yourself to accept that's okay.

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And sometimes actually in that context, trying to rush is really detrimental uh because
the culture and people are not ready.

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how they currently do things.

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But yet you need to move fast because organizations need to change.

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And if they take too long, then there's a risk and a threat there, isn't there?

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There is, I mean, there's that perpetual change thing that happens as well, which I think
if, you know, I'm not a fan of speed particularly.

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I think that whole kind of obsession with velocity has been problematic, you know, because
it's been inherited from mostly from Silicon Valley startups, right?

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And they're where velocity is important.

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But for a lot of large companies, I think often getting it right is an organization's
getting it right.

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is more important than speed at all costs at least.

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But there is obviously the flip side of that, which is that sort of glacial pace.

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And there's a thing that happens where, you know, we've spent two years doing this
transformation and then, you know, new CEO or new somebody comes in and goes, oh, well,

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I'm going to do, not doing any of stuff that that last guy did.

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We'll do some other stuff.

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And it is often, that's quite gendered often, it is often a guy saying that about the
previous guy's stuff.

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and you know, I knew a company in Australia, a telco, I won't name which, which of the two
it is, but they went through this whole process.

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Um, it took them like six months to do their budgeting process for the year.

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Right.

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So they were in the middle of the year, just got it all kind of sorted.

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And then, uh, the CEO brought McKinsey in McKinsey did their restructure, which meant
firing a lot of people basically.

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uh

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and McKinsey forced them to do the budgeting process all over again.

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So literally, they were like 10 months into the year and they still hadn't fixed their
budget for the year.

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And it's impossible to really work amongst in those kinds of conditions.

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And so that stuff happens a lot.

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There's definitely a cycle.

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So your talk, let's talk about your talk.

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Well, we talked earlier and we ended up doing that thing where we ended up talking for
ages before the show.

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So now we have to repeat some of it, but there was, we talked about your talk about
conflict, but we were talking about a thing that I talked about actually, which was how

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much your family circumstances, how you grew up, certainly family, school, culture you
grew up in, they shape a lot, an awful lot about how you deal with conflict.

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And you started your talk with a personal story.

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Do you want to?

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Yeah.

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So I think I've had to, in my simple brain, put together how to have better conversations
because I didn't have role models, for example.

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So my mom and dad, you know, I told this story, valued harmony in the house.

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They took pride, bless them, like, love my mom and dad to bits.

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They took pride in

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never arguing in front of us.

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And I remember, you know, having relationships then as you grow up, and having
disagreements and just not having the tools just having to, you know, I'd shy away from

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it, I would avoid it at all costs, which isn't healthy.

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And it doesn't progress things.

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So I think almost the talk was me recognizing that

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you have to have better conversations, which involves having constructive conflict and
piecing together.

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How would I bring myself to a point where I could broach subjects where I would lean into
it?

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Luckily, as a designer, you're kind of taught that, right?

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It's part of your degree.

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know, critique is really important.

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You always have thought that you take it and you build on it.

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So I think that was really useful for me, but it still didn't give me the day-to-day
nuance, I guess, of...

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dealing with disagreement with colleagues, for example, or even with partners as you grow
up.

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yeah, I think that's where the talk kind of stemmed from my own inner work, as you called
out in your talk, which I absolutely love.

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But it's funny, isn't it, as designers, we start with, OK, so I'm going to look at this
thing and I'll understand it, but I'll look at how it affects other people.

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But the more I went through it, the more I realized it was my inner work.

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It's actually

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me and what I bring to the table because that all comes into play when you disagree with
someone.

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It's not just about the topic of disagreeing around, it's how you disagree and your
approach to it.

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And that's where I realised, you know, as a designer, maybe I've not set the conditions
for that to happen well, because I haven't considered even the words that I use, the tone,

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the approach, the question you asked, that opening question to

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open up a discussion and create space.

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And then, you know, that really hard bit actually, which is being prepared to change your
mind.

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I think almost as a designer, we're taught that, and particularly service designers
actually were often looked to as people who have answers to lots of different things.

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But being able to say and going into a disagreement and hedge your claims, don't start by
trying to prove yourself right.

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So

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Yeah, that's quite a shift.

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That's a reframe of how you approach disagreement, isn't it?

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It is indeed, yeah.

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There's something that's just become apparent to me that is now really obvious now I can
think of it.

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You said something back before about sort of taking something, looking at how something's
made and there's a classic thing.

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I mean, you it as a graphic designer or as a media designer.

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I studied film, video and interactive media and photography.

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But there's a classic thing that say, know, industrial designers, product designers do,
which is, you know, the professor comes in with a uh vacuum cleaner.

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like a Dyson and says, okay, take this apart and understand how it's made.

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And you take that thing apart and you have the students take it apart and have a look at
it and they go, oh, this bit's injection molded and this bit has been designed in this way

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because for efficiencies or whatever.

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And here's where they save some money.

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And you really do that.

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You really can deconstruct it and understand all the parts of it and understand and try
and do the reverse engineering of thinking, how did that become that way?

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Why is it done in this way and so forth?

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And what were the decisions made?

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And I try and get my students to do that with services, which is a bit more difficult
because they're intangible quite often.

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But it just struck me, the thing that seems like really obvious now that I think of it is
doing the same with interpersonal interactions and doing the same.

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So obviously what my wife is a psychologist does all the time, but really intentionally
doing it in the work environment and saying, okay, there's a conflict going on here.

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And instead of like, oh, conflict, we don't want any of that.

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doing, we can talk about the generational thing later on actually, but doing that thing of
like, no, I don't want that.

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That's, you know, that's triggering me.

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That's traumatizing me.

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Um, but actually looking at it and going, well, let's have a look at what's going on here.

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Let's pull it apart.

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Let's look at it as we would any other designed and or designable object.

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Um, and understand it.

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I think it's a, maybe a useful way for us to get our heads around the idea that it's not.

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awful thing to do but it's actually a very design-ly thing to do.

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Yeah.

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And I think so if you said that and applied that it's in organizations, that's not how
they run.

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you know, organizations are, you know, there's lots of research to say that organizations
are not doing their best thinking because they truly don't know how to handle conflict.

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And I gave some some statistics around even at an exec level in Europe and the US that
execs shy away from avoid because, you know, they might fear.

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of getting embroiled in uh conflicts that they don't know to manage because they don't
feel equipped or maybe even they think that they would lose.

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So even at that level, and then you think about employees as well, you have to think then
about, okay, so what's my part to play in this?

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How might we have better conversations?

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Understanding that the norm is probably to avoid them.

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So then the only way you can lean into that is you as a designer.

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what you bring to the table and how you might encourage better to start to a tone and
model that rather than thinking, I'm going to change the organization to having

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constructive conflict.

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That's not the starting point, if that makes sense.

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Yeah, mean, I agree.

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The more and more I kind of think about impact on the whole conference we were at, the
theme was impact.

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The more I think that the greatest impact we have is, obviously, really like the stone in
a pond and the ripples is those really close to us.

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And that ripple effect, I think we underestimate actually of what a difference that can
make.

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And even if it's not in the organization you're currently in or for the next few years,
often, you you will be the role model for someone else.

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And when they are in, end up in that position, they end up affecting quite a few people,
you know, anyone who's reporting to them if they're in a leadership role.

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Uh, and so that could be, that can have a massive impact.

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really can have a ripple effect.

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And when I talk to people in coaching, you really hear it's one or two people in their
lives have made a massive difference.

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It's quite often, for a lot of people, it's a teacher of some kind, either at school or
university who, um, saw something in them and kind of gave them permission to step into

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their own power in that respect.

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or showed them that design was a thing.

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But quite often it's just one person who really, could be someone they worked with, be a
boss who just really unlocked something or just gave them a role model for something.

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But that goes both ways, obviously, Mike.

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So people have kind of terrible role model of someone, I say terrible role model, they
have a role model of someone acting in ways that are very destructive, but that also often

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gets them promoted and then that becomes a thing too.

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And I that quelling of conflict can often be a very sort of dictatorial approach in
management.

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Yeah.

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And I think the challenge is really, isn't it, our psychological drive to not have
interpersonal discomfort or to rush over conflict.

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these habitual things we do when we're faced with it.

200
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It's kind of...

201
00:18:01,006 --> 00:18:04,826
You talked when we spoke before this about reprogramming.

202
00:18:04,826 --> 00:18:09,366
think the element of reprogramming here that you've got to do, starting with yourself.

203
00:18:09,738 --> 00:18:12,618
And how do we as designers not jump to a solution?

204
00:18:12,618 --> 00:18:14,680
I think we're better at that.

205
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:22,824
We try to surface assumptions which should create disagreement that would allow us to get
to better, forming better outcomes that we can work to.

206
00:18:22,824 --> 00:18:28,145
But we are human and we do want to be proven right.

207
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We want to be seen as.

208
00:18:30,347 --> 00:18:34,068
So like that reframing and reprogramming is really interesting.

209
00:18:34,068 --> 00:18:38,890
But from going through this process, and I've been kind of applying this for some years
now.

210
00:18:39,022 --> 00:18:43,002
It is hard, but it's simple as well.

211
00:18:43,002 --> 00:18:45,282
Because these are the things you can do.

212
00:18:45,862 --> 00:18:56,642
Just last week, I was using some of these techniques, just simple framing statements to
just try and have better conversations where there wasn't good conversations.

213
00:18:56,642 --> 00:19:05,062
And it's amazing once you have some courage, show a little vulnerability, how others
react.

214
00:19:05,062 --> 00:19:06,722
And the room changes as well, doesn't it?

215
00:19:06,722 --> 00:19:07,926
Because you find, oh,

216
00:19:07,926 --> 00:19:10,266
I'm not the only one because of course you're the only one.

217
00:19:10,266 --> 00:19:16,198
there's something else feeling, you're feeling it's not being said, know, others feel it
too.

218
00:19:16,198 --> 00:19:24,651
So, you know, it can be really positive to be the one that kind of just says, hang on, you
know, there might be a better way here.

219
00:19:25,191 --> 00:19:27,061
And then others go, yeah, I was thinking that too.

220
00:19:27,061 --> 00:19:28,982
And it's like, it just changes everything.

221
00:19:28,982 --> 00:19:35,033
Or even you say something that people disagree with and you don't get resolution.

222
00:19:35,474 --> 00:19:36,844
And it isn't solved.

223
00:19:36,844 --> 00:19:41,216
you've had a disagreement and that might be the first time you've had a real disagreement
in a team.

224
00:19:41,216 --> 00:19:48,120
So the next time you have it, maybe you're better placed or you just, you just shifted the
dial a little bit or lent it a little bit more.

225
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,322
So it's a better place to have it next time.

226
00:19:51,742 --> 00:20:01,207
just saying those things and getting them out there, even if it doesn't get to the outcome
that you've maybe you'd hoped for is still better.

227
00:20:01,207 --> 00:20:06,270
Cause I, you know, I've presented this talk before going to Helsinki.

228
00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:11,153
um And someone in the audience said, it sounds like an awful lot of work.

229
00:20:11,153 --> 00:20:19,369
uh Yeah, it does sound like a lot of work, but think about the lack of motivation.

230
00:20:19,369 --> 00:20:21,341
Think about the negative energy.

231
00:20:21,341 --> 00:20:23,822
Think about the dissatisfaction.

232
00:20:23,822 --> 00:20:31,808
Think about the team and how it can deliver impact when you don't surface those things and
you just leave them there and you carry them and they just remain.

233
00:20:32,589 --> 00:20:34,040
Yeah, I think that's worse.

234
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,646
But

235
00:20:34,646 --> 00:20:37,377
Again, in organizations, we like to quantify and measure things.

236
00:20:37,377 --> 00:20:48,350
That's really hard to measure that we should create some sort of playbook for designing
with conflict because it actually, the return on investment is this.

237
00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:50,871
We're far away from that.

238
00:20:50,871 --> 00:20:59,804
But I think on an emotional energy level, I think it makes more sense to surface those
things than it does to actually leave things.

239
00:20:59,886 --> 00:21:00,966
Yeah, I mean, I agree.

240
00:21:00,966 --> 00:21:04,266
I think it's also, I mean, you could quantify some of that stuff.

241
00:21:04,626 --> 00:21:09,166
one of the things that happens in consulting and, know, this isn't unique to Accenture.

242
00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:13,826
It's unique, you know, it happens in loads and loads of large organizations, large
enterprises.

243
00:21:13,826 --> 00:21:18,586
Um, but what I found, I was really surprised by the amount of, uh, alignment meetings.

244
00:21:19,306 --> 00:21:22,646
I was like, what, what, we need an alignment meeting on this.

245
00:21:22,686 --> 00:21:26,026
Initially I was like, what the hell's an alignment meeting?

246
00:21:26,166 --> 00:21:28,614
And what it is is.

247
00:21:29,054 --> 00:21:32,967
a group of people dancing around each other, circling around each other.

248
00:21:32,967 --> 00:21:40,282
It's a bit like when dogs meet each other and they are, and you get that initial moment of
like, are we going to fight or are we going to play?

249
00:21:40,482 --> 00:21:42,253
And um we're not quite sure.

250
00:21:42,253 --> 00:21:46,877
And so there's this kind of circling around each other and everyone is talking around the
project.

251
00:21:46,877 --> 00:21:55,893
And usually there's a lot of jargon in there because jargon is a great way to cover up all
sorts of insecurities and questions that nobody really knows the answer to and everything.

252
00:21:55,893 --> 00:21:57,494
And then eventually,

253
00:21:57,550 --> 00:22:08,990
what happens by some kind of osmosis, greater, or, you know, it's like a kind of a systems
effect where the group of people align and at least they think they do and now this is our

254
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:10,870
purpose and direction and so forth.

255
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:13,430
Quite often that is an illusion anyway.

256
00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:16,370
But there's a, there's, you know, a deck has been created.

257
00:22:16,370 --> 00:22:26,410
That's usually one of the aligning things, but you know, it can be like three or four
meetings with quite a lot of people who have paid quite a lot of money to get there.

258
00:22:26,410 --> 00:22:26,926
And

259
00:22:26,926 --> 00:22:31,346
If people had the confidence to say, I'm sorry, what are we doing here?

260
00:22:31,346 --> 00:22:32,646
I don't really understand what we're doing.

261
00:22:32,646 --> 00:22:36,726
When you say we need a vision strategy roadmap, what is that?

262
00:22:36,726 --> 00:22:38,466
I don't really know what that is.

263
00:22:38,466 --> 00:22:43,485
And there we would get very much, much quicker to some kind of result.

264
00:22:43,546 --> 00:22:49,906
I think one of the design superpowers, which we forget all the time is to make abstract
things like that tangible.

265
00:22:49,906 --> 00:22:55,686
It's to draw a diagram or to draw whatever it is.

266
00:22:56,130 --> 00:23:05,478
you know, is it a concept or an idea and to actually sketch it is a very, powerful thing
because then you, get out of the fact that telepathy doesn't exist and everyone's kind of

267
00:23:05,478 --> 00:23:12,934
pretending to know what the other thinks and you actually have uh a concrete thing that
you can disagree over too, but you've at least you're both know you're looking at the same

268
00:23:12,934 --> 00:23:17,988
thing and you're disagreeing over it rather than thinking you're aligned and you're not.

269
00:23:17,988 --> 00:23:25,100
mean, how often does that happen where you get this moment where everyone thought we're
there on the same page and then.

270
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,132
as soon as something gets made manifest in the project.

271
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:30,916
I said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I was thinking of at all.

272
00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:33,474
And trying to get there quicker is really important.

273
00:23:33,474 --> 00:23:39,657
Yeah, think I remember from the conference somebody talked instead of alignment to talk
about cohesion.

274
00:23:40,078 --> 00:23:44,680
And I thought that was really interesting because it says an awful lot more, doesn't it?

275
00:23:45,021 --> 00:23:51,765
But what would you need for cohesion would be different to what you would need for
alignment, for example.

276
00:23:51,765 --> 00:24:01,710
So in putting the talk together, one of the things that I tried to stay away from was a
tool case, you know.

277
00:24:01,747 --> 00:24:05,096
I'm so tempted to ask you, what are three things you need to do?

278
00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:08,839
Because actually, think it's more fundamental than that.

279
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:09,800
It's more foundational.

280
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,313
It's more words, you know, being so powerful.

281
00:24:14,313 --> 00:24:20,478
And the framing statements you could use to elicit some of those assumptions that you feel
are in the room.

282
00:24:20,478 --> 00:24:21,672
You know that they're in the room.

283
00:24:21,672 --> 00:24:25,542
You know there's beliefs, particularly at the beginning of a project or even some way
through.

284
00:24:25,542 --> 00:24:28,395
You know what you can feel when there's beliefs that are not coming out.

285
00:24:28,395 --> 00:24:35,160
Maybe a sketch or a visual thing as designers, but sometimes just a reframe, just a
question.

286
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,311
can be enough to start a conversation that might result in, does it look like this?

287
00:24:40,852 --> 00:24:50,515
And I think the interesting bit is, like, how would you flip that to make that more open
for input from people who maybe don't want to pick up a pen and do a sketch?

288
00:24:50,515 --> 00:24:56,716
For example, know, great with solutions architects, for instance, they're happy to do a
process flow.

289
00:24:57,237 --> 00:25:01,218
I do, I use an exercise which I've been using for many, years, and it's just a...

290
00:25:01,454 --> 00:25:09,974
It's a stick figure exercise and I've used it with X, I've used it in ballrooms, I've used
it everywhere and it's beautifully simple in that everybody can do a stick figure.

291
00:25:09,994 --> 00:25:16,994
So I guess it's thinking about if you are going to use a tool, how do you leave it as open
as possible to input?

292
00:25:17,533 --> 00:25:25,114
A really good, I don't know, even the simplest, like let's start with outcomes as a
question is really good at reframing.

293
00:25:25,114 --> 00:25:30,348
But that six figure one is like really useful because it's got only six boxes.

294
00:25:30,348 --> 00:25:32,779
So it forces out a priority.

295
00:25:33,099 --> 00:25:37,310
You ask people to start thinking about a user going through it.

296
00:25:37,310 --> 00:25:40,321
So it then starts to build empathy for users.

297
00:25:40,321 --> 00:25:46,152
And you ask them, know, the sixth box needs to be the outcome that they want.

298
00:25:46,152 --> 00:25:57,045
So even in that, and I've had people sketch out stick figures with ties and high heels and
all sorts of stuff, I've never seen, even when I've used it, I've never seen, know,

299
00:25:57,045 --> 00:25:59,438
initially people go, well, I can't sketch.

300
00:25:59,438 --> 00:26:00,418
you, but it's fine.

301
00:26:00,418 --> 00:26:02,558
know, everybody can do a stick figure.

302
00:26:02,658 --> 00:26:08,498
But I guess, you know, that's the lowest fidelity, but that's as much as you'd need
sometimes to surface disagreement, isn't it?

303
00:26:08,498 --> 00:26:12,838
But other times it's like it's complex than that.

304
00:26:12,838 --> 00:26:19,858
So you need to put something together that really brings out some of some of the
complexity in that.

305
00:26:19,858 --> 00:26:21,938
And that might be a diagram or a tool.

306
00:26:21,938 --> 00:26:27,178
But I yeah, I tried to in the talk of us all the time resisting my

307
00:26:27,328 --> 00:26:32,480
urge as a designer to whip out a tool and say you could because it didn't fit.

308
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,531
was like, because I knew it wasn't about our practices.

309
00:26:35,531 --> 00:26:40,523
I knew that it's about our human qualities.

310
00:26:40,523 --> 00:26:51,908
So that's very much about our language and our attitude and our mindset, which is, guess,
where the the core of the talk came from was that and you the idea that it's embraced the

311
00:26:51,908 --> 00:26:57,410
conflict and I had those stickers that people keep asking me for from it because

312
00:26:57,992 --> 00:27:04,756
I do think it's a mindset shift that you can do at any time and you could start tomorrow
and just try.

313
00:27:04,802 --> 00:27:15,230
Yeah, think we talked about this a little bit before in our previous chat that there is
also this, well, there's cultural differences and there's also generational differences.

314
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:19,563
I so I'm British and I had lived a long time in Australia.

315
00:27:19,563 --> 00:27:22,515
I live in Germany now and I teach in Switzerland.

316
00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:26,099
I've taught in Australia uh as well.

317
00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:30,702
I certainly noticed differences when I first went to Australia about ...

318
00:27:30,702 --> 00:27:35,244
critique culture, for example, and I don't know if it's unique to the UK, it may be true
of the USA.

319
00:27:35,244 --> 00:27:40,807
It's pretty hardcore in the UK when you're in university and you go through a design crit,
there's no holds barred.

320
00:27:40,807 --> 00:27:51,092
In Australia, I really found there was a tendency to avoid that conflict or to avoid being
the one who put yourself out there a little bit and say, you know, well, I really think

321
00:27:51,092 --> 00:27:55,534
this didn't really work so well because there's a whole cultural thing about what they
call not being up yourself.

322
00:27:55,534 --> 00:27:56,590
oh

323
00:27:56,590 --> 00:28:00,950
And so that ended up in crit sessions, people going, yeah, I like it.

324
00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:01,770
I don't like it.

325
00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:02,830
But why?

326
00:28:02,830 --> 00:28:04,130
I just think it's great.

327
00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:07,010
But why is it great or why is it not?

328
00:28:07,010 --> 00:28:09,490
And getting that out of people.

329
00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:12,530
You're Irish, so you were talking about, and now you live in the UK.

330
00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:19,654
What have been your sort of cultural experiences around the differences in the way people
approach conflict or avoid it?

331
00:28:20,235 --> 00:28:21,368
interesting isn't it?

332
00:28:21,368 --> 00:28:22,560
I love this.

333
00:28:23,630 --> 00:28:25,998
We're going to make loads of generalisations now, right?

334
00:28:25,998 --> 00:28:27,359
tons of gender violations.

335
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:34,845
uh So I think you can jump to, and I think this was the third section of my talk was
talking about supporting others.

336
00:28:35,246 --> 00:28:45,333
And a lot of that is about maybe some of the beliefs that you're bringing into a
disagreement around your cultural background or somebody else's actually.

337
00:28:46,475 --> 00:28:51,929
But we often do forget about the thing that trumps that, is our family experience.

338
00:28:51,929 --> 00:28:54,852
But let's start with cultural background for a second then.

339
00:28:54,852 --> 00:28:55,562
So

340
00:28:55,754 --> 00:28:59,955
I'm Irish, which I think gets me a long way into disagreement.

341
00:29:00,016 --> 00:29:05,678
Something about the accent, for example, uh which people like.

342
00:29:05,678 --> 00:29:07,319
Once you're understood, that is.

343
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:14,162
I do remember coming here when I moved here first and meeting somebody that I'd been
working with for about three months and they were in a different office in a different

344
00:29:14,162 --> 00:29:15,082
city.

345
00:29:15,082 --> 00:29:21,785
And when I met them in person, they were like, you know, love your accent, but didn't
understand the words you were saying.

346
00:29:21,785 --> 00:29:25,466
So, you know, that that can be an issue.

347
00:29:25,602 --> 00:29:32,137
I think that's something that I bring to the table when I'm disagreeing with someone and
that comes into play.

348
00:29:32,137 --> 00:29:38,212
And sometimes that can be beneficial because maybe I'll, you know, the accent gets me some
of the way.

349
00:29:38,953 --> 00:29:45,638
But I think in the UK, people are not as willing to disagree.

350
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,324
I think it's more healthy in Ireland because we're very self-deprecating as a nation.

351
00:29:51,324 --> 00:29:53,626
um it's, yeah.

352
00:29:53,626 --> 00:29:54,466
So

353
00:29:55,980 --> 00:30:03,862
And then, you know, I've got a brother who does initially and his Italian wife, you know,
healthy disagreement is such a part.

354
00:30:03,862 --> 00:30:05,492
And it's so interesting.

355
00:30:05,513 --> 00:30:23,798
I was with him a little time ago and to see when he interacts with us, you know, it's,
he's not as, as, yeah, I guess he's Irish, but when he's interacting with Italians, it's

356
00:30:23,798 --> 00:30:25,140
like a different person.

357
00:30:25,140 --> 00:30:31,372
because of course he's been living in 20 years, so he's taken on and it's like much closer
proximity to people.

358
00:30:31,793 --> 00:30:44,008
know, like, these are really careful not to kind of stereotype here, but you know, it is a
lot of like, it's not just verbal, it's, it's...

359
00:30:44,008 --> 00:30:47,029
And you don't know, I don't understand the language, are they upset?

360
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:47,619
No, they're not.

361
00:30:47,619 --> 00:30:50,360
It's just that's how they express themselves.

362
00:30:50,901 --> 00:30:54,124
But you know, so I think there is a cultural thing for sure that...

363
00:30:54,124 --> 00:30:55,484
you know, is good to consider.

364
00:30:55,484 --> 00:30:59,936
But also don't just consider who's in front of you and their cultural backgrounds.

365
00:30:59,936 --> 00:31:02,736
Actually consider your own and start there.

366
00:31:02,736 --> 00:31:05,817
And then there are benefits that you can just think about, right?

367
00:31:05,817 --> 00:31:15,420
You know, how can I kind of better not utilize because if I hate to think that you're
thinking about this as some sort of persuasion, that's not what it's about, actually.

368
00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:23,822
It's just about because the most important thing is when you're working in a team, when
you're working in organization, regardless of cultural background or

369
00:31:24,114 --> 00:31:27,376
family experience, you just want everybody's opinion.

370
00:31:27,376 --> 00:31:30,538
You just want people to be heard what you don't want.

371
00:31:30,538 --> 00:31:38,858
Either from a senior stakeholder who maybe has an idea that you've not managed to get out
or from a team member, you just want to get those ideas out.

372
00:31:38,858 --> 00:31:42,204
That's the most important thing, regardless of background or family experience.

373
00:31:42,204 --> 00:31:47,187
But what it does really help is to think about cultural background, maybe.

374
00:31:47,187 --> 00:31:51,830
But if you can get underneath it a little bit and think about somebody's family
experience.

375
00:31:52,268 --> 00:31:56,903
And I explained a couple of techniques to do that, asking simple questions in your team.

376
00:31:56,903 --> 00:32:02,848
Because we know that when people share a little bit about their family experience, they're
more likely to share in other areas.

377
00:32:02,848 --> 00:32:09,725
Because that's all you're trying to do actually, is to set up a space where people can
feel, they can share, and you can get everybody's opinions.

378
00:32:09,725 --> 00:32:12,938
Because we know best opinions don't always come from designers.

379
00:32:12,938 --> 00:32:14,960
They come from every place, and you have to hear them.

380
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,141
um Yeah.

381
00:32:16,141 --> 00:32:16,866
uh

382
00:32:16,866 --> 00:32:25,641
Yeah, it's funny when you think about the of the methods used in workshops, they're often
used to deliberately flatten out the hierarchy in the room or to get different kinds of

383
00:32:25,641 --> 00:32:26,272
voices.

384
00:32:26,272 --> 00:32:33,355
And if you think of that round robin exercise, people don't know it's an ideation exercise
where someone ideates something.

385
00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:42,461
And then the next you pass your papers like the consequences game, you you pass it around
to the next person and they are called upon to critique that idea.

386
00:32:42,461 --> 00:32:44,590
And I've had it once in

387
00:32:44,590 --> 00:32:55,110
In Japan, fact, where, know, hierarchy is very strong in business culture, where the
person was sitting next to the CEO and had they had not been given the instruction of run

388
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:57,590
now, you have to kind of critique this piece of work.

389
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:59,090
They probably wouldn't have done it.

390
00:32:59,090 --> 00:33:00,930
Um, but it was, you know, it's very healthy.

391
00:33:00,930 --> 00:33:02,710
It's really useful to do that.

392
00:33:02,710 --> 00:33:04,330
I find the culture of things always fascinating.

393
00:33:04,330 --> 00:33:09,770
And obviously, you know, know thyself is really the rule here of, what do I bring?

394
00:33:09,770 --> 00:33:11,758
And it's so tempting.

395
00:33:11,758 --> 00:33:18,078
you know, certainly when you're younger, I think to assume that your, your cultural norms
are, are the norms.

396
00:33:18,078 --> 00:33:21,438
I have a really funny little example of this.

397
00:33:21,438 --> 00:33:29,458
Actually, there was a TV show in the UK and it all about generational cooking and recipes
and how people cook like their parents and grandparents did.

398
00:33:29,498 --> 00:33:34,678
And it was a woman who was saying, you know, I always cut the cooking ham or something
like that.

399
00:33:34,678 --> 00:33:40,134
So I always cut the of corners off of the ham or the kind of, and I said, well, why'd you
do that?

400
00:33:40,134 --> 00:33:41,445
just the way I cook a ham.

401
00:33:41,445 --> 00:33:44,756
And then asked her mother and her mother said, why?

402
00:33:45,577 --> 00:33:48,199
My mother used to do it, so that's why I always do it.

403
00:33:48,199 --> 00:33:54,342
And they asked the grandmother and the grandmother said, well, you know, it never used to
fit in my tin.

404
00:33:55,323 --> 00:33:58,244
And so they're taking on this thing.

405
00:33:58,244 --> 00:34:02,506
I am someone, actually, I am someone who likes, I like vinegar on my bacon.

406
00:34:02,927 --> 00:34:05,058
And I thought it was a thing that everyone did.

407
00:34:05,058 --> 00:34:07,019
It just turned out my dad did that.

408
00:34:07,019 --> 00:34:08,898
I suspect his dad did that too.

409
00:34:08,898 --> 00:34:12,659
But those kinds of examples are really, you hear it over and over again.

410
00:34:12,919 --> 00:34:22,102
When people actually start to excavate their own cultural norms and then lot often those
things get embedded in methods as well.

411
00:34:22,102 --> 00:34:34,156
you know, having done lots of workshops and stuff in other parts of Asia, for example, it
becomes very, very clear of how North American, a lot of design and European, a lot of

412
00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:35,085
design.

413
00:34:35,085 --> 00:34:41,325
methods are offered, sort of workshops and facilitations and things, and they don't
necessarily translate into other cultures.

414
00:34:41,565 --> 00:34:45,325
But that said, I think you can lean into your own culture.

415
00:34:45,325 --> 00:34:53,205
When you said about the Irish thing, I've definitely had a, there's definitely an excuse
when I'm in Germany or in Switzerland to say, you know, it may be because I'm British, but

416
00:34:53,205 --> 00:34:55,705
can I ask this really stupid question?

417
00:34:55,705 --> 00:34:57,485
It's not really a stupid question to see that.

418
00:34:57,485 --> 00:35:00,485
Can I ask the question elephant in the room?

419
00:35:00,485 --> 00:35:02,705
Which I think you can make use of.

420
00:35:02,705 --> 00:35:04,326
And I've also had a,

421
00:35:04,366 --> 00:35:14,046
I think it's a nervous tick of mine probably to sort of be a little bit joking and kind of
dad-jokey in interactions with sort of senior people.

422
00:35:14,046 --> 00:35:23,386
But I found it very useful because I found a few times I slipped into that kind of court
jester role and the court jester was there to tell the king the truth that everyone else

423
00:35:23,386 --> 00:35:25,866
would get their head cut off off for saying.

424
00:35:26,346 --> 00:35:30,646
it's been super useful sometimes because I felt I could then...

425
00:35:30,646 --> 00:35:39,170
I had the license, think, that gave me some confidence, but a license to say the thing
that everyone else was thinking in the room, but didn't dare say.

426
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:47,583
And say it in a way, which maybe is a very British thing to have this, it could be
interpreted one way or the other to say it in a way that, you know, it could be

427
00:35:47,583 --> 00:35:54,817
interpreted as a joke if it, know, if it landed badly, but it could also be taken
seriously and start a conversation.

428
00:35:54,817 --> 00:35:58,198
And I think there's a, there's an awful lot of service you can do.

429
00:35:58,242 --> 00:36:02,725
where you understand, you know, what role can I play in this social dynamic?

430
00:36:02,725 --> 00:36:03,944
What am I good at doing?

431
00:36:03,944 --> 00:36:06,498
You sometimes it's bringing people back down to earth.

432
00:36:06,498 --> 00:36:08,689
Sometimes it's bringing clarity.

433
00:36:08,689 --> 00:36:09,970
Sometimes it's bringing some humor.

434
00:36:09,970 --> 00:36:11,701
Sometimes it's bringing the kind of personal in.

435
00:36:11,701 --> 00:36:15,470
Everyone has their different skill, I think, but I do think everyone has a skill.

436
00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:16,970
I completely agree.

437
00:36:16,970 --> 00:36:26,330
So it's interesting, Andy, because one of the doubts I had before giving this talk was I
knew it was an Irish person working in the UK and this was a global conference.

438
00:36:26,330 --> 00:36:32,770
So was like, well, any of this land actually, you know, are any of these things universal?

439
00:36:32,970 --> 00:36:41,590
And I think I asked that question in the very beginning, you know, has anybody had issues
or concerns at work they're afraid to raise and the whole put up their hand.

440
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:45,150
So I was like, that made me instantly happy.

441
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:54,037
and sat because I wasn't sure that I thought maybe it was culturally specific actually.

442
00:36:54,198 --> 00:37:00,563
So I didn't see how it would land, but it seemed to have definitely hit a note didn't it?

443
00:37:00,563 --> 00:37:06,407
The talk itself was very well attended and I've been in it data to be honest since.

444
00:37:06,928 --> 00:37:14,062
So there's something there and there's something for us as service designers, there's
something about how we better have better conversations.

445
00:37:14,062 --> 00:37:20,462
There's definitely a feeling, think, because I've looked back to some of the things that
people have been probing me about.

446
00:37:20,502 --> 00:37:33,102
And it's like it is looking for better ways to deal with, but it's not about, you know,
have you a tool that's more about how would you broach, how would you ask, how would

447
00:37:33,102 --> 00:37:33,322
you...

448
00:37:33,322 --> 00:37:36,902
So it's simpler, isn't it, but really important.

449
00:37:36,990 --> 00:37:45,050
Yeah, this comes up all the time in coaching actually and there's often a, I think I
talked about it in my talk, there's often a moment where someone's having a problem like

450
00:37:45,050 --> 00:37:54,390
that, they're having an issue with someone they work with and it's often a peer as much as
a boss or someone working for them.

451
00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:58,030
And they really wound up about it.

452
00:37:58,030 --> 00:38:03,010
eventually, and I hear, listen, they rant about that for about 10 minutes or something.

453
00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:05,942
said, well, what is it that you really want to say to this person?

454
00:38:05,942 --> 00:38:08,923
And I get the version of it with lots of swearing.

455
00:38:09,404 --> 00:38:15,527
And then we kind of go, well, but my answer is really, or my question is really, then why
don't you say that?

456
00:38:15,667 --> 00:38:17,238
And what would it look like if you had to say that?

457
00:38:17,238 --> 00:38:19,750
And then they make the non-swearing version of it.

458
00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:24,012
But it amazes me how scary that is for people to then go off and say it.

459
00:38:24,012 --> 00:38:29,254
But invariably, when they've had the courage to then say it, and it's helped them to
rehearse it, I think, in the coaching.

460
00:38:29,315 --> 00:38:35,978
You know, including what's the worst that could happen if you say this and what might
happen otherwise.

461
00:38:36,038 --> 00:38:46,491
And then they have it and often it's not only resolves some of the conflict, it can quite
often really be a very, it's like the first argument in the relationship, right?

462
00:38:46,491 --> 00:38:51,453
It actually then bonds them much better with the person that they've previously been in
conflict with.

463
00:38:51,453 --> 00:38:53,240
Have you had that experience or similar?

464
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:53,950
Yeah.

465
00:38:54,136 --> 00:38:54,947
That's exactly it.

466
00:38:54,947 --> 00:39:01,412
that's, if people understood that, uh we're willing to take that risk.

467
00:39:02,353 --> 00:39:10,529
You know, and I think, you not just because people do ask me a lot about, okay, so, but
hierarchy, you know, surely that's, you know, the biggest problem.

468
00:39:10,529 --> 00:39:22,942
But often our disagreements can, you know, are with peers or with people in different
teams, not always with disagreement with management or an exec.

469
00:39:22,942 --> 00:39:32,088
And that's rare actually, because that's more about the strategy going in the right
direction, which isn't actually about agreement, that's a direction.

470
00:39:32,088 --> 00:39:35,210
So I've absolutely had that and I'm having that all the time.

471
00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:48,719
And I've yet to have, and this is me being really honest, to raise something that didn't
feel right or that was maybe worrying about or demotivated me or made me feel anxious and

472
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,866
not had the other person step into a space.

473
00:39:52,866 --> 00:40:03,091
that made us better connected afterwards, even if we didn't get to some perfect
resolution.

474
00:40:03,372 --> 00:40:14,197
The trust that was built with just raising that and being humble and vulnerable and
exposing yourself and just saying, I'm feeling this.

475
00:40:14,598 --> 00:40:18,850
creates that space that is, yeah, so it's worth doing.

476
00:40:18,850 --> 00:40:20,261
It really is worth doing.

477
00:40:20,261 --> 00:40:22,062
But you need to

478
00:40:22,062 --> 00:40:32,868
approach that with a mindset that is, if you're looking, and this is the kind of
checklist, if you're looking to proved right, then that's probably not going to go well.

479
00:40:33,148 --> 00:40:44,374
But if you're looking to truly make a better connection or work better, and if it's in the
interest of work, and if you're prepared to be wrong, then it changes things entirely.

480
00:40:44,675 --> 00:40:47,496
Because tonally, obviously, it changes things.

481
00:40:47,836 --> 00:40:51,246
Words, language, framing, everything becomes different.

482
00:40:51,246 --> 00:40:53,286
But you have to be willing to change your mind.

483
00:40:53,286 --> 00:40:56,046
I think that's probably the key thing, isn't it?

484
00:40:56,646 --> 00:40:59,806
It doesn't work if you're not willing to change your mind.

485
00:40:59,806 --> 00:41:02,466
And are we really willing to change our minds?

486
00:41:03,426 --> 00:41:05,926
Because you're not always right.

487
00:41:07,006 --> 00:41:08,846
So are you willing to be proved?

488
00:41:08,854 --> 00:41:13,735
I mean, obviously, you know, I'm always right, but everyone else.

489
00:41:14,196 --> 00:41:17,546
I think um there's a funny paradox at the heart of this.

490
00:41:17,546 --> 00:41:24,519
I said this lots of times that I think the biggest lie is this idea of it's not personal,
it's just business.

491
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:29,700
We have this idea of professionalism being sort of non-emotional, right?

492
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:34,701
Don't bring us, why it's so gendered as well, you know, don't bring those kinds of
emotions in there.

493
00:41:34,982 --> 00:41:36,878
This is being professional.

494
00:41:36,878 --> 00:41:40,918
You know, we are sensible when we're professional, we wear suits and all of that stuff.

495
00:41:40,918 --> 00:41:52,258
But actually when you hear, I hear you talking about that, what you're really hearing is
in fact the sensible, mature thing to do is to have a conversation about this and have the

496
00:41:52,258 --> 00:41:59,038
conflict, not act out the conflict, but actually have discussed the conflict.

497
00:41:59,038 --> 00:42:01,078
That's that sort of meta communication thing.

498
00:42:01,078 --> 00:42:02,798
And that is much more sensible and mature.

499
00:42:02,798 --> 00:42:05,218
And those who don't, who kind of use

500
00:42:05,218 --> 00:42:11,862
The idea of, I'm just being professional and sweep the emotions under the carpet end up
actually being the opposite, right?

501
00:42:11,862 --> 00:42:23,368
Where you end up being terribly unprofessional, or at least by not being human, not being
personal, you end up creating this really, really toxic environment that has negative

502
00:42:23,368 --> 00:42:26,449
professional results, is what I'm saying, or effects.

503
00:42:26,610 --> 00:42:34,584
So it's this kind of weird paradox there that the very thing, maybe it's just human
nature, but the very thing we're trying to avoid is the thing that's causing us the

504
00:42:34,584 --> 00:42:35,444
problem.

505
00:42:35,854 --> 00:42:37,394
It's interesting though, isn't it?

506
00:42:37,394 --> 00:42:47,237
uh So some years ago, decided my LinkedIn profile should have elements of me outside of
work on that.

507
00:42:47,237 --> 00:42:48,908
And I think that started to happen.

508
00:42:48,908 --> 00:42:56,620
This is well documented over COVID, for example, where we started to see into and
understand and get a glimpse of.

509
00:42:56,620 --> 00:43:00,001
And I think that is a good thing, actually.

510
00:43:00,001 --> 00:43:05,206
um But the thing for me is, because I always have in my head

511
00:43:05,206 --> 00:43:16,694
those times where you had a really good working relationship, where disagreement was
healthy, where ideas just bounced, where roles disappeared.

512
00:43:16,694 --> 00:43:24,819
really didn't matter how hierarchy was lost because it's in the interest of getting to the
best.

513
00:43:24,819 --> 00:43:26,781
It was open, it was free.

514
00:43:26,781 --> 00:43:34,786
So always have that in my head as that only happened because people opened up.

515
00:43:34,902 --> 00:43:39,604
It only happens actually, I think, when the emotional part is there and understood.

516
00:43:39,604 --> 00:43:47,328
yeah, and you know, there are constraints, you know, but there's an understanding, you
have this promise that you've made to each other, that there's trust.

517
00:43:47,568 --> 00:43:52,131
And when you raise something and disagree that it's for good reason.

518
00:43:52,131 --> 00:43:57,693
And then, you know, the creativity and the innovation just flows from that.

519
00:43:58,494 --> 00:43:59,714
So you've kind of...

520
00:43:59,822 --> 00:44:07,842
took apart that professional piece, put it to one side, and you're only dealing with the
emotional piece, actually, and that's when it works best.

521
00:44:07,882 --> 00:44:12,882
But you're right, you know, I've expressed this before and I really like it, but that's a
flip, isn't it?

522
00:44:13,262 --> 00:44:23,402
In, you know, putting emotion into your professional work and what you do and being
vulnerable and being willing to say I was wrong.

523
00:44:23,582 --> 00:44:26,380
All those things that me as a consultant, maybe...

524
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:30,333
Maybe I was less comfortable to do that 10 years ago, maybe when I'm younger as well.

525
00:44:30,333 --> 00:44:35,737
maybe I didn't have the gravitas perhaps to say, well, no, I didn't get that right.

526
00:44:35,737 --> 00:44:37,489
I think it should be like this.

527
00:44:37,489 --> 00:44:43,863
As a young designer, I probably wouldn't have had the courage or the confidence to do
that.

528
00:44:43,863 --> 00:44:52,369
But I do think it's, yeah, that's a change that I'm putting into play now and have been
for some years.

529
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:55,172
The benefits are so much better.

530
00:44:55,172 --> 00:44:58,535
The connections you make with people are so much deeper.

531
00:44:58,535 --> 00:45:02,154
The impact that you can do is far greater.

532
00:45:03,042 --> 00:45:05,774
You said before there are constraints and boundaries to this.

533
00:45:05,774 --> 00:45:14,300
think there is definitely a, I have seen people sort of weaponize that in the other
direction where they come in and it's all about them and it's all about their, how

534
00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:23,165
they're, you know, and if they're having a bad day, there's someone in particular I'm
thinking of and she used to come in and was, you know, made a big thing about how hungover

535
00:45:23,165 --> 00:45:26,417
she was and then sort of it would sit down and be like,

536
00:45:27,374 --> 00:45:34,294
You know, and it was like it flooded this room with this vibe of like, you know, it's not
my day today.

537
00:45:34,294 --> 00:45:38,454
And then of course it just became awful for everyone.

538
00:45:38,654 --> 00:45:41,654
And there was no, there were no boundaries there.

539
00:45:42,214 --> 00:45:53,954
And I've also seen that thing, you know, like I said, I'm married to psychologists and
psychotherapists and the language of therapy, and I don't want to minimize anyone's actual

540
00:45:53,954 --> 00:45:57,226
trauma or experiences, bad, toxic,

541
00:45:57,226 --> 00:45:59,027
workplaces because there's lots of them.

542
00:45:59,027 --> 00:46:00,307
I'm not saying this at all.

543
00:46:00,307 --> 00:46:09,314
I'm going to preface this, the language of, you know, even things that saying that
triggered me or I'm traumatized or I feel unsafe.

544
00:46:09,314 --> 00:46:21,363
I really want people to be able to say that they feel unsafe and all of those things, but
I have seen it then used um cynically, I would say, you know, to say, um than I'm feeling

545
00:46:21,363 --> 00:46:23,254
discomfort here and we can explore that.

546
00:46:23,254 --> 00:46:25,885
So I feel unsafe and just shuts the whole thing down.

547
00:46:26,612 --> 00:46:30,044
And it's particularly used as a way of kind of bullying upwards.

548
00:46:30,044 --> 00:46:38,629
um And I understand all the reasons why sometimes you need to kind of fight upwards and
use what you can because there's a power differential there.

549
00:46:38,629 --> 00:46:49,334
But I've definitely seen it then um go so far the other way that it makes it very, very
difficult for people to interact with each other because it's conflict aversion so strong

550
00:46:49,334 --> 00:46:49,975
there.

551
00:46:49,975 --> 00:46:56,438
You can't even begin to have a conversation about the fact that you might be having a
conflict, let alone actually go any further than that.

552
00:46:56,438 --> 00:47:03,542
It's yeah, so I've presented in the talk Patrick Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team.

553
00:47:03,642 --> 00:47:15,729
do think it's the simplest if you were to apply some framework to it because you know,
when he talks about, okay, so in what you're describing there, Andy, is it an attention to

554
00:47:15,729 --> 00:47:16,039
results?

555
00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:20,591
So is that person focused on individual pursuits and not collective success, for example?

556
00:47:20,591 --> 00:47:25,554
So I think with Patrick Lencioni's framework, you can start to go, but what is this?

557
00:47:25,634 --> 00:47:31,099
break it down, is it that there isn't trust here, so people are afraid to disagree?

558
00:47:31,099 --> 00:47:39,245
Is it that, you know, there's a lack of commitment because we don't have clear direction
um and there's a lack of bias, so we just can't make decisions that stick?

559
00:47:39,245 --> 00:47:40,596
Or is it about accountability?

560
00:47:40,596 --> 00:47:46,631
Because when I gave this talk, people say, well, one of the things that we disagree on
most is people's roles.

561
00:47:46,631 --> 00:47:50,394
And we know there's much more disciplines that we're working within teams.

562
00:47:50,394 --> 00:47:53,496
So, but I think you can unpack it.

563
00:47:55,234 --> 00:48:00,759
Probably the scenario you're describing, it's hard even to get to that discussion point.

564
00:48:00,759 --> 00:48:11,708
But I do think thinking about where might the problem be and then having the conversation
and even showing, you know, I've used Patrick Lencioni's model and showed it to people

565
00:48:11,708 --> 00:48:13,109
where there was disagreement.

566
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:14,651
So where are we having this?

567
00:48:14,651 --> 00:48:16,212
What's the disagreement about?

568
00:48:16,212 --> 00:48:17,454
there's a little bit over here.

569
00:48:17,454 --> 00:48:20,335
There's a little bit over here, but it always comes down to the same thing.

570
00:48:20,335 --> 00:48:23,926
There's probably a lack of trust and there's probably a fear of conflict.

571
00:48:23,926 --> 00:48:32,106
the roles, responsibilities, the attention to results and stuff is all stuff you can sort
out and should sort out and that's really valuable because actually if they're not there,

572
00:48:32,106 --> 00:48:34,559
that will cause disagreement.

573
00:48:34,620 --> 00:48:43,320
But it usually comes down to the human qualities and the foundational competencies that
mean you're not having good disagreement.

574
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:50,612
Yeah, it definitely can help to have a third thing you can point to, I think, rather than,
you know, that's just your opinion and stuff.

575
00:48:50,612 --> 00:49:00,785
But I think it's also what I'm also hearing there is how important it is to have some of
these conversations up front and to talk about, certainly when you're forming a project

576
00:49:00,785 --> 00:49:08,947
team or any of that stuff, to talk not just about, um you know, here's what the project's
about and everything, but how do we feel about this agreement?

577
00:49:08,947 --> 00:49:10,247
How do we go about resolving that?

578
00:49:10,247 --> 00:49:11,938
Are there any particular structures?

579
00:49:11,938 --> 00:49:13,176
What are our boundaries?

580
00:49:13,176 --> 00:49:18,728
But also the personal stuff of this stuff's really important to me and this stuff is stuff
I need your support on.

581
00:49:18,728 --> 00:49:26,890
And I've seen teams where that's worked well and people have policed each other and
someone said, it's okay, you know, I'll stay late to finish this.

582
00:49:26,890 --> 00:49:32,271
And the rest of the team said, no, you need to go because we know that on Tuesday nights
is yoga or whatever it is.

583
00:49:32,271 --> 00:49:34,732
eh And that's really important to you.

584
00:49:34,732 --> 00:49:39,714
And when it works well, like that stuff is really, really super important to have upfront.

585
00:49:39,714 --> 00:49:41,374
it can help.

586
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:52,423
Again, it's that sort of meta communication idea that we're going to do some work around
how we communicate before we are full of all the adrenaline and fear and hormones there

587
00:49:52,423 --> 00:49:55,286
that are going to make us then explode.

588
00:49:55,367 --> 00:49:58,821
So that when we get to that point, it's like having a good fire extinguisher.

589
00:49:58,821 --> 00:50:01,453
When we get to that point, we know what to do.

590
00:50:02,350 --> 00:50:06,632
So I agree, but I've seen this go wrong actually a few times.

591
00:50:07,753 --> 00:50:18,959
where you, for example, you take it in because you've got different organizations starting
off on something really big um and you start to build that understanding.

592
00:50:18,959 --> 00:50:24,962
Maybe you're starting to get people to think about objectively different strengths and
weaknesses.

593
00:50:25,223 --> 00:50:31,776
But I think it's the things that you can sow into the routines that are

594
00:50:31,776 --> 00:50:33,707
almost more important.

595
00:50:33,707 --> 00:50:43,806
the reminders of, I've used examples of a simple question at the end of a retro, for
example, to say, is there anything here that you're afraid to say?

596
00:50:43,806 --> 00:50:52,237
I think if we can start to let into routines, it becomes, because a great start is good,
don't get me wrong.

597
00:50:52,237 --> 00:50:58,941
But then it can just be focused on the work as you say in the milestones and it goes into
the cadence.

598
00:50:58,941 --> 00:51:00,824
And then we've lost it somehow.

599
00:51:00,824 --> 00:51:04,938
So I think if you can build it into your routines and it's totally possible to do that.

600
00:51:04,938 --> 00:51:09,782
There's a lovely, from facilitation at a glance, that really amazing book.

601
00:51:09,782 --> 00:51:11,754
There's a beautiful survey that you can run.

602
00:51:11,754 --> 00:51:17,389
It's only 10 questions that you can run with your team to just assess how are we handling
disagreement?

603
00:51:17,389 --> 00:51:26,376
And I love that because it's really old, it's beautifully simple, and you could do it at
any time just to see, is there anything below the surface here that's not being dealt

604
00:51:26,376 --> 00:51:26,576
with?

605
00:51:26,576 --> 00:51:28,440
there anybody that's afraid to say?

606
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:35,186
So I do think, yes, a good start to surface some of those things can be hard because you
might not know some of those things.

607
00:51:35,186 --> 00:51:37,127
You might not have that relationship yet, right?

608
00:51:37,127 --> 00:51:39,099
You might not have built some trust.

609
00:51:39,099 --> 00:51:43,272
So then periodically coming back to that I think is really healthy as well.

610
00:51:43,598 --> 00:51:44,858
So this has been fascinating.

611
00:51:44,858 --> 00:51:46,018
We're coming up to time.

612
00:51:46,018 --> 00:51:48,098
Unfortunately, we could talk about this for ages.

613
00:51:48,378 --> 00:51:53,518
We should have recorded the pre-conversation we had where we talked about a load too.

614
00:51:53,558 --> 00:51:56,218
As you know, the show is called Power of 10.

615
00:51:56,218 --> 00:52:01,858
It's named after the powers of 10 film by Ray and Charles Eames, all about the relative
size of things in the universe.

616
00:52:01,858 --> 00:52:11,078
And so the one small question is, or the one of the final question is, what one small
thing is either overlooked or could be redesigned that would have an outsized effect on

617
00:52:11,078 --> 00:52:11,814
the world?

618
00:52:11,950 --> 00:52:13,891
That's a really hard question, Andy.

619
00:52:13,891 --> 00:52:15,052
I love that you are.

620
00:52:15,052 --> 00:52:21,687
There was so much, I was racking my brains over the weekend thinking and there's so much
that I could have talked about.

621
00:52:21,687 --> 00:52:25,880
But I think for me, I need to bring it back to the talk.

622
00:52:26,140 --> 00:52:32,585
I need to bring it back to the idea that, you know, we're not doing our best thinking.

623
00:52:32,585 --> 00:52:39,982
So taking that first step, there's probably something if you're in a team and you're doing
work today.

624
00:52:39,982 --> 00:52:42,464
There's probably something that you're not saying.

625
00:52:42,525 --> 00:52:52,116
There's probably some, whether it's big like an elephant in the room that people are not
talking about, or whether it's small, something, maybe an interpersonal thing with a team

626
00:52:52,116 --> 00:52:56,521
member that is demotivating you, you're finding it hard.

627
00:52:56,521 --> 00:53:01,396
So I think the small thing is just saying it.

628
00:53:02,638 --> 00:53:03,548
and

629
00:53:03,658 --> 00:53:09,262
how it lands and then seeing the ripples as maybe somebody else does the same.

630
00:53:09,262 --> 00:53:20,508
So for me, the smallest thing that could have the biggest impact is just to start to have
those disagreements, to say that thing, to, you know, and to not think of that as a

631
00:53:20,508 --> 00:53:24,700
negative because sometimes we give ourselves a hard time and say, I can't say that because
of this.

632
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:27,432
Don't think it through so much actually in some regards.

633
00:53:27,432 --> 00:53:30,433
Just think of it as, you know, this is a step forward.

634
00:53:30,433 --> 00:53:31,594
It'll help others.

635
00:53:31,594 --> 00:53:34,277
And just remember that you're probably not the only one thinking it.

636
00:53:34,277 --> 00:53:35,158
So it's good to say it.

637
00:53:35,158 --> 00:53:44,442
So the smallest thing would be just to say that thing that's worrying you, that concern
that's there, that issue that's there, that interpersonal thing, person in the team that

638
00:53:44,442 --> 00:53:47,154
you're going, I'm not quite sure.

639
00:53:47,154 --> 00:53:49,717
I think we could and just go for it.

640
00:53:49,717 --> 00:53:51,358
I think that's the small thing.

641
00:53:51,854 --> 00:53:52,455
That's wonderful.

642
00:53:52,455 --> 00:53:53,124
That's wonderful.

643
00:53:53,124 --> 00:54:01,524
What I'm also hearing there is the thing around people reflecting from what is it that I'm
actually feeling here too, I think, because I think there's often the surface thing and

644
00:54:01,524 --> 00:54:03,116
then what's actually going on there.

645
00:54:03,116 --> 00:54:11,634
And I think that can help ask those questions or have that conversation without the
immediate kind of emotional conflict that sometimes will come with it.

646
00:54:12,336 --> 00:54:14,618
So where can people find you online?

647
00:54:14,638 --> 00:54:21,538
So, yeah, it's a complicated question these days with some of the changes in social
networks.

648
00:54:21,538 --> 00:54:29,958
LinkedIn is probably the easiest way to find me online, to the point that I like to people
to know a little bit more about me beyond the professional.

649
00:54:29,958 --> 00:54:34,418
My Instagram is actually someplace because I'm a visual person.

650
00:54:34,418 --> 00:54:37,438
So that's the other place I direct people to at the moment.

651
00:54:37,438 --> 00:54:40,178
But if you want to contact me, LinkedIn is best.

652
00:54:40,206 --> 00:54:40,986
Thank you so much.

653
00:54:40,986 --> 00:54:45,726
I'll put all the links in the show notes and I'll put a link to those couple of books you
mentioned too.

654
00:54:45,726 --> 00:54:48,326
Thank you so much for being my guest on Power of 10.

655
00:54:50,066 --> 00:54:52,046
You've been watching and listening to Power of 10.

656
00:54:52,046 --> 00:55:00,066
You can find more about the show on Pelain.com where you can also check out my leadership
coaching practice, online courses, as well as sign up for my irregular newsletter,

657
00:55:00,066 --> 00:55:01,226
Doctor's Note.

658
00:55:01,246 --> 00:55:02,754
If you have any thoughts.

659
00:55:02,754 --> 00:55:04,456
Put them in the comments below or get in touch.

660
00:55:04,456 --> 00:55:07,881
You'll find me as at andypolaine on Blueskey

661
00:55:07,881 --> 00:55:12,167
You'll find me at Andy Polaine or apolaine on LinkedIn or my website.

662
00:55:12,167 --> 00:55:14,030
All the links are in the show notes.

663
00:55:14,030 --> 00:55:17,133
Thanks for listening and watching and I'll see you next time.