Shaun Dawson (00:04.263)
you

Shaun Dawson (00:15.491)
Hey, y'all, you're tuned into Assigned Sex, Unarchived. I'm your non-binary cousin, Shaun Dawson, and this is a safe space where we're honest about what it means to show up as Black, trans, and genderqueer. Today, I'm sitting down with Kyrie. I met Kyrie over a decade ago, back when we both lived in Brooklyn, New York. He's one of the OG cast members from my 2019 documentary, Assigned Sex. At the time, he was in college, early in his transition, and just starting to figure out who he was beyond being an athlete.

He played basketball on an international level, but that career came to an abrupt stop once he decided to start taking testosterone. I reached out to Kyrie because I wanted to unpack what does it really cost us as black trans and genderqueer people to chase a version of masculinity that was never built for us in the first place. Let's get into it.

Shaun Dawson (01:07.151)
I was looking back at how... we started doing Assigned Sex in like 2013, 2014. So it's been like over a decade. It's been a long time. Looking back at like where we like started like first, like where would you say like your relationship is now with your family?

Cool, funny you should ask that. My family has always been supportive. I will start off by saying that. But I would say even though with my family being supportive, I still at times feel like I'm not, my transition has not been, you know, really, I'm not really seen in some aspects.

For lack of better word, I feel like it's more tolerated than kind of understood in a sense. But like I said, they've been supportive in the best way that they can be. It's just some aspects of it that they just probably would never understand because they don't have those experiences. So that's where it's at right now. I remember when we were doing the doc and

You were one of the few people who had like a really supportive family. Now, where you are now, when you heard the words, black masculinity, what comes up for you? Is it like a person, an image, a stereotype? Right now, I'm gonna say a stereotype. And I'm gonna be honest, like I feel like

Kyrie (03:04.161)
those first couple years myself and my transition, kind of fell into those stereotypes. But as I've grown...

I, that's just what it is. It's a stereotype. You're, you know, you are who you are at the end of the day. Your definition of masculinity may not be my definition of masculinity. So I'm gonna say it's a, I feel like it's a stereotype. Yeah, there was, when I was, I was doing this episode, I was trying to, was like, should I get like a group of trans men, at least like three?

And then while I was trying to do that, found that like trans men are like impossible to find. And I'm just like, are they hiding? Are they invisible? like my question is, do you find that it's easy? I feel like it's a lot easier for trans men to just once they're like passable, like once they get like their like

No one's like checking for them. They just kind of like slide in the background and they're cool with that

Yeah, in a sense it is. No doubt. It has its advantages and disadvantages. I'll say that. I'm going to tell you one of the disadvantages that I think there is. And I think it's like right now this political climate. And when I brought back Assigned Sex.

Shaun Dawson (04:40.241)
Like the transphobes have been wild for one. I don't know if it was like that when we started doing this in 2013, but it seems a lot worse. And a lot of people have this misconception that trans people just fell out of the sky in 2000. Like we like haven't been here. And I feel like when we like hide in the background, they erase us from history.

I'm doing this like black history, this black trans genderqueer history thing this month and finding like black trans men is the hardest. I say that's the hardest part. But also because of the transphobes, I could see why you would want to like hide in the background and also like just being a black man. A lot comes with that as well.

Yeah, don't, I'm not, this is of course speaking just for myself. I don't necessarily call it hiding for me. You know, I don't hide who I am, like, you know, so I meet you, you know, we get to that point, I'm talking to you, I'm going to disclose it. But it's also just like, I'm still human at the end of the day, like.

I don't, you know, I'm a pretty private person. I don't like a lot of people up in my business. But at the same time, yes, we do need more representation out there just to show like, you know, we just people at the of the day living our lives day to day. We got jobs, we got families, you know, we got dreams, we got goals and stuff that we've worked in tours. We just also happen to have this, you know, other aspect of us that, you know, a lot of people don't.

So I would say, like I said, from my perspective, it's not me necessarily hiding. It's just, that's just who I am as a person.

Shaun Dawson (06:52.564)
Okay, so it's time for a little black trans and genderqueer history. Today, we're centering the story of Jim McCarris. Jim was born in 1924 in Meridian, Mississippi. He lost both his parents when he was still a kid and ended up being raised by two different sets of foster parents. From early on, Jim wasn't feeling all the girl expectations people were putting on him, but he did like dating girls. In his early teens, Jim transitioned however he could.

He let go of dresses and leaned into clothes that actually felt like him. By 1939, he had started moving around, spending time in places like Memphis, Chicago, and other cities across the Midwest. To support himself, worked all kinds of jobs. He was a shorter to cook, a cab driver, a gas station attendant, an auto mechanic, a shipyard worker, and even a preacher. Ebony Magazine later described him as...

A sharp, flashy dresser who hated women's clothes, used a DIY binder to shape his chest, and felt most at home being treated as one of the boys. In November 1953, Jim moved to Mississippi, ready to put down roots instead of constantly moving. He found work at a gas station, stayed in a local boarding house, picked up some shifts as a shorter to cook, and got engaged to a young woman in high school. Wow.

He was also on track to be made deacon at a local church. Mm-hmm. But in 1954, the life he was carefully building started to come apart. Jim was pulled over in a traffic stop for faulty car lights and the police said they found a pint of whiskey in the car. Y'all know the police be lying though. He was arrested and when they went to search him, Jim let the officers know that he had been labeled a female at birth. The news spread quick through the city and the people had a lot to say.

In court, Jim was pressured to prove his body to the judge. He stepped into a closet at the courthouse, took off his clothes, and came back out in front of the judge and the officers just to make them believe. After that, the judge, who was also the mayor, fined him $100 or 30 days on the prison farm. For a little context, that $100 back in 1954 would be about $1,200 today. While he served his time,

Shaun Dawson (09:16.703)
They kept Jim in men's clothing, had him working in the prison kitchen, but they housed him with a woman prisoner. Jim probably liked that part. When he got out, the city turned cold. They wasn't fucking with Jim no more. People who used to be friendly started ignoring him and Jim decided it was time to move on again. Jim said he was going to live as a man permanently and that's exactly what he did. He didn't register for the draft though, like men were required to do at that time. And when Ebony Magazine asked him why, he answered,

Man, I ain't crazy. Jim's story is one more reminder that Black trans and genderqueer folks have always been here, building lives, taking risks, and insisting on our right to exist long before people had the language to name who we are.

Shaun Dawson (10:08.532)
Growing up, who showed you what a black man was supposed to be? When you think back, were there any positive black men in your life? I had one. He was around when I was younger. And then as I went through high school and stuff, he wasn't around that much. But not many, to be honest.

Just more so the coaches and stuff that I was around. The coaches that were at my school and stuff that I watched coaching the boys team and things like that. But I would say just as young as just that one guy and then as I got older, hasn't really been many.

Shaun Dawson (10:57.149)
Real. I feel like that's just the story of black families. There's not many like positive black men. Yeah, but at the end of the day, it has this disadvantage, but I think the advantages of it is I've grown into my own, you know, I'm my own man and I'm not.

You see some of these, you know, black men who grew up with their fathers, they're trying to, you know, follow in his footsteps and sometimes may not always be the best. Sometimes may not always be the best footsteps and things like that. But, know, you have the good and the bad. But as far as, you know, my perspective of it, I've I've learned things the hard way and, you know, I've come out the best way I can.

And at the end of the day, like it makes me my own man. So that's, know, like I said, has its advantages and disadvantages to it.

I feel like a lot of men get told that being soft will get you hurt, especially as like black people. As you were like stepping into yourself as like trans masc, did you feel pressured to be like extra hard, extra stoic, extra put together? Absolutely. And absolutely.

Those first couple of years, I'm not gonna lie, fell into that stereotype. I had to be this way, I had to be that way. And like I said, goes back to, I didn't have that example. I didn't have those examples around me. But as I got older, I did a lot of, and I did, and I'm still doing a lot of intrinsic work to really just be Kyrie.

Kyrie (12:49.907)
You know, you don't have to live up to no stereotype. You don't have to be this type of way. You don't have to be that type of way. Like you be your own person. So, yeah, definitely first couple years. I wouldn't even say first couple years, you know that. More than just a couple years, it was, you know, it's hard to get out of stereotypes and, know, the environments that I was in, the people I was hanging around. But sometimes, you know.

You got your part where you just gotta step away from all that and get back to who you are basically. Can you tell me about like the a moment like something that happened where you felt like you were performing a version of masculinity that didn't really belong to you?

But you did it to feel safe.

Kyrie (13:46.945)
So I ride a motorcycle and in that, in those types of environments, there's this stereotype of, you gotta be this way, this, you know, that way. People didn't know the people that was around, didn't know was trans. And I did that, you know, for my safety, cause you, you know, you don't know what's going on in that, you know, those worlds. So I would say around that time,

When I was doing all that, was out riding in those environments, I felt like I had to put on an act.

Shaun Dawson (14:28.855)
I mean, yeah, you definitely, I can't even imagine, in Atlanta. All right, let's get into dating. What has it been like to be wanted? To feel genuinely like somebody wants you for 100%, how you see yourself. And you're not their experiment, their secret, you're not a fetish, because I've been seeing a lot of the fetish stuff and it's weird.

I would be honest with you, I felt like I've only felt that one time through these years of me dating.

And I've actually, I date both men and women. and as more so, that one time that I felt that it was with a woman. So.

That is, that's like one of the hardest things for me. What's the sign? How can you tell right away if it's like some weird freaky fetish shit? just how they move, how they talk, you know, and where the conversation goes, you know. You know, you get a vibe from jump.

So, like how do you protect yourself, protect your heart from, like are you dating now?

Kyrie (15:56.137)
I am dating now.

Well, let me let me let me back that up. I'm open to dating. I'm not dating anyone in particular right now. But that is one of the areas that I'm kind of in the season of my life, like protecting my art because of those like I want somebody who generally wants Kyrie for Kyrie. And I'm not gonna lie, this, for the past couple years, like I've been struggling with my own demons as far as

Like I said, dating, whether I want to be with a man or a woman, I've been dealing with all that. But I've come to a point where I've done that work. I feel like I'm ready for that type of relationship. But now it's just me protecting my heart to make sure that the person that I'm giving it to really wants Kyrie for all Kyrie brings to the table and doesn't bring to the table in that regard.

I mean, I feel like dating the dating world with anybody right now is just trash. The bar is like under the ground. It's like you'd be nice to somebody. They'd be like, I love you. You're like, wow. You just be nice to them. You just say something nice. They're like, my God, nobody treats me like that. They're so nice. All right.

When you look at, I've been getting deep into like trans, like genderqueer history. know everybody's not really into the history stuff, but even when you look at like queer things, like on TV, like, do you see that a lot of like black trans men are being represented? No. Right. Yeah. No. I don't know. Not at all. It's important. I feel like it's so important that that happens. Yeah.

Kyrie (17:53.929)
It is. that's another thing I can, know, like going back to what you asked me before, like us hiding. I don't think it's not hiding. We just be living our lives. at the same time, yes, we do need our representation. And I do tell myself like that all the time. So that's why I don't hide it. And that's why I want to do this. You know, this is some type of, you know, putting yourself out there, some type of representation. But, yeah, it's not a lot.

It's also like, I don't feel like you have to do that if you don't want to do that because it's very unsafe. True, true, You shouldn't have to put your body out there like on the line. I'm just putting it out there because as I'm like digging for things, I'm just like, wow, there's like no black trans mask like representation like anywhere. And in a time now where they're like erasing like history, black history, I feel like it's very, very, very important. Yeah.

No, I agree. And yeah, you don't necessarily have to, but from my perspective, it would be good to just, you have a few, you know, the little that we have right now. A few more. If you could sit down with like a younger black trans man who's just starting to figure out things about their gender, their sexuality, what's one thing you would want them to know about black masculinity and making it your own?

make it your own and don't buy into that stereotype. That's it at the end of the day. It is you are who you think you are, who you know you are, and if that's your definition of masculinity, that's your definition of masculinity.

Shaun Dawson (19:39.171)
And for anyone listening who's madly in love with like a black trans-masc person right now as a partner, what do you want them to do differently after hearing you today?

I would say be.... I really don't like to say bee understanding, because.

Sometimes people, you know, can't understand things that you haven't been through, but there's a lot of emotional depth I feel that comes with trans individuals that a lot of people don't really understand. So if you could just be patient.

Kyrie (20:24.617)
And like I was give give some grace and just like listen, be open to listening.

Shaun Dawson (20:34.869)
Be patient and be open to listening. Do you believe in therapy? Absolutely. I'm back in therapy now. And do you believe your partner should go to therapy too? is that a thing for you? Yes, I do. I was just, because I, when people say they're working on themselves, I always wonder if they're working on themselves by themself. If they're just like, I'm just working, I'm the meter. Like I'm doing all this stuff by myself. I mean, some people can. No, they can't.

Everybody should go to therapy.

Shaun Dawson (21:24.983)
Alright y'all, that's all I got for today. If this episode dragged you a little bit or hugged you a little bit, please share it with someone you love. And if you're black, trans, or genderqueer and you're listening like, okay, I got something to say too, hit me up. I'm always looking to sit down with more of us for future episodes. You can find me, your non-binary cousin, Sean Dawson, on all platforms at IMS Dawson. Y'all be safe out there.