S03EP01
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Rob: [00:00:00] Patrick, how you doing?

Patrick: Hey Rob. Very well. How are you?

Rob: I'm not bad, thanks. Um, I've got a question for you.

Patrick: Fire away.

Rob: If you had to wear one pair of trainers for the rest of your life, what are you gonna choose?

Patrick: It's a difficult one 'cause there's so many.

Rob: There are a lot!

Patrick: I'd probably have to go with Air Max 95s.

Rob: Okay. Do

Patrick: you know?

Rob: Okay.

Patrick: They're just sort of pretty timeless. You wear them in the eighties and nineties or now and they sort of go with [00:00:30] everything really.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

Patrick: they're really comfy as well.

Rob: Are you wearing them right now?

Patrick: I actually am wearing them.

Rob: Oh yeah. Okay.

Patrick: It's 'cause I looked, I might have looked down on my feet actually.

But yeah, they're just pretty cool. They're come in a load of different colorways as well.

Rob: Is that the first pair that you've ever bought as well? When you're -

Patrick: The ones I'm wearing now?

Rob: I, I would presume not.

Patrick: What, oh, the first pair of shoes. I, before the first pair? No.

Rob: Welcome to the podcast, Patrick. So you are making your debut on episode one of season three, so no pressure mate.

Um, how does it feel?

Patrick: Feels great. Happy to be here. Happy to get [00:01:00] involved.

Rob: Nice. Well, sadly, we've actually only got you along for the, uh, intro outro segment today, but I did wanna bring you on as we're interviewing a brand that is relatively close to your, uh, I wanna say heart, maybe your day to day more, uh, Awin.

Patrick: Yeah, well both work, to be honest. Uh, that's right. You've got, uh, JD Sports in the studio with you today. And, um, yeah, that's been under my remit for just over 12 months now, uh, at Awin as, as the account director, uh, across the JD group. So, yeah.

Rob: Nice. Well, I'm gonna test your JD Sports knowledge now because, uh, given all that experience on the account, I wondered if [00:01:30] you knew why they're actually called JD Sports.

Patrick: I know the history, but I don't actually know the, the reason for the name.

Rob: Well, it's actually, so it's taken from, this is gonna be a mind blowing fact for you, Patrick, to prepare yourself.

Patrick: Yeah.

Rob: Um, their, their founders were called John and David. Right. So that's it. The two entrepreneurs who set the original sports shop up in Berry near Manchester in 1981, John and David, and that's why it's JD Sports.

Lee: I was a data analyst. I worked with brands like Coca-Cola. I worked in the gambling industry. I worked for. Fast fashion brand. And then they [00:02:00] were looking to hire an affiliate manager, and that's how I got to affiliate marketing.

Rob: That's Lee Carter, group head of affiliates at JD Sports.

Lee: So I was there for a kind of a few years.

Um, I've worked agency side, worked startups and smaller brands. And then I've been at JD for about a year or so, kind of overseeing everything from strategy, contracts, legal, kind of everything for our, for the globe apart from the us.

Yeah. And can you, um, for audience members who are maybe less familiar with.

Uh, the company. Could you give us a quick bio on JD Sports?

Just go to your local High Street [00:02:30] and you see us. No, uh, JD Sports is, um, it's a sportswear retailer. It's been around, uh, for about 40 years now.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Lee: Um, started in Berry in Manchester and has kind of grown and grown and grown. I think we've got 400 stores in the uk.

Mm-hmm. Um, but we're present in pretty much all of Europe, Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, Australia, and then our US side of the business. It's kind of, sort of. Sister company, slightly separate to us, but again, hundreds of stores over there as well.

Rob: Yeah, yeah.

Catherine: It was very much my role to launch our affiliate program, so those inaugural direct [00:03:00] partnerships, working with, uh, the networks such as Awin and really beginning to, one, monetize our content from a commercial perspective.

And then two, thinking about how we can supercharge our e-commerce growth, like outside of payments.

Rob: Also with us is Catherine Ufford, group head of Klarner advertising.

Catherine: Klarna is actually a fully licensed bank.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: Which is something that might surprise you born and bred in Sweden, but we are now across all core markets, very famous for buy now, pay later offering, [00:03:30] but we actually do so much more than that.

Actually, our fastest growing payment type is actually pay now, which might surprise you in some of those high frequency verticals. Um, so a big focus of what we do is obviously giving. Fair, transparent payment options to our consumers. We're really trying to pioneer the way that people pay, make it very flexible and easy.

Mm-hmm. And then of course, a big part of what I do is that marketing and growth solutions for our partners as well. So how can we make Klarna less anonymous with logging in and paying your bills and more [00:04:00] that point of inspiration to begin the shopping journey.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And how does, um, affiliate marketing fit into the business's approach to that?

Catherine: So, a great part of what we are looking at at the moment is how can we go beyond checkout? Mm. So we actually think that checkout is just the start of the journey. A lot of what we do is how can we drive that consumer back to our partners, send quality traffic back to them, and really focus on that. Post purchase experience.

So whether that's, you know, all the way from like delivery tracking to giving our partners [00:04:30] real estate in the app to host their own shop window and drive that repeat customer back. Mm-hmm. So affiliate's very much been a core part of our growth strategy.

Mm-hmm.

Both from a new customer acquisition perspective, but also purchase frequency.

Um, how can we increase AOV via editorial? How can we increase conversion rate via not only our flexible payment methods, but also. Extra incentive such as cash back, which we've recently launched, uh, which all feeds into an ecosystem, which is proving very successful for our partners.

Rob: [00:05:00] It's funny that you say that it starts at the checkout because that makes sense from car's perspective.

Mm-hmm. And the business model there. But in a lot of ways, that's the complete. Inverse of where you would expect, you know, the marketing funnel traditionally starts in the upper funnel space, and that's where a lot of affiliates and influencers, you know, it's a growing kind of space there and it's, it's kind of all feeding down towards the checkout, whereas your starting place is at the checkout and kind of building back from there in some way, it's.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. And I will, I will build on that, especially as Klan has evolved over the years where we've gone beyond that now. So to your point, it's how [00:05:30] can we signpost that throughout the consumer journey? I think people know and trust the Klarna logo. So the earlier we can showcase that, the more successful we can be in sort of driving that loyal customer.

And I know that people are actively looking for Klarna 'cause they, like I said, it's, um, trusted and secure. Mm-hmm. So we've done a lot of sort of co-marketing campaigns as well in the past with partners to sort of drive that. Repeat purchase.

Rob: So I wanted to ask you both about like, how did the partnership come into being in the first place?

Lee: I think it's a little bit before my time, but we worked with [00:06:00] Klarna as a payment provider kind of at checkout. Yeah. And then I think moved over to the affiliate side and it's kind of grown from there. And then just kind of through the scale of Klarna, so working in all the different kind of markets, all the different parts of the funnel that they're working in.

So we've worked with Klarna on cashback, um, in Europe, but then also in some of the smaller territories. We've tested out influencers content. It just kind of, yeah, with kind of every kind of touch point we can just, 'cause we know that our client users kind of really, really gravitate towards it.

Rob: Could you speak to a little bit about the influencer aspect of your model and what you offer there?

Catherine: Um, so we actually acquired an influencer marketing platform, um, [00:06:30] roundabout 2020 actually. So in that shopping boom that we saw in the lockdown.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: And the thing that we wanted to focus on was transparency. So that's at the core of everything Klarna does from like a brand ethos perspective. And we wanted our partners to be able to work with our influencers, but.

To see exactly who they're working with. Mm-hmm. So that they can then optimize with individual influencers in turn, because we've sort of seen from research and partner feedback that just seeing the influencer platform sort of black boxed Yeah. Isn't particularly helpful when you've got to explain it back [00:07:00] to business that's probably quite brand conscious or image conscious and say what's working and what's not.

Mm-hmm. So we actually sit on a separate. Publisher ID on Awin. So brands can just simply extend a commission rate and the influencers can go in and start picking up the links and pushing out that content. Mm-hmm. But then we also give dashboard access, so really nice user friendly dashboard to literally see who's working with you and optimize with them accordingly.

And then we can also offer fully managed paid campaigns. Yeah. So, uh, you know, full [00:07:30] funnel influencer marketing campaign that's fully managed by Klarna.

Rob: Yeah. And so do you guys kind of offer that as part of a, a wider solution then? So that if a brand is keen on working with you, you are selling that in or kind of, um, proposing that to them as one of several different marketing channels that you can help them with?

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the most success we've seen is when. Brands partner with us on a sort of full funnel basis. Yeah. And we are really fortunate that JD has this sort of appetite, uh, to do that and is always looking to innovate. Mm-hmm. And we've [00:08:00] seen sort of working on those upper funnel influencer campaigns all the way down to like cashback incentive is really what drives most performance.

And it's not like it has to be. Always on at all times. Mm-hmm. Like different parts of the promotional calendar, we can turn on different tactics, dial it up a bit here, leverage that side of things so we can really align with, you know, a traditional marketing promotional calendar, see what works, and then see where we need a little bit of help from.

Um, additional touch points on client side.

Rob: Yeah. Do you think there's something about, I know this predates your experience actually [00:08:30] working at jd, but the fact that the partnership began to evolve a lot more during lockdown, where there was maybe a real desire from brands to think about their online presence and how they're interacting with customers who are obviously stuck at home and looking to explore media in different ways that that kind.

Almost amplified the expiration there.

Catherine: Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I will, um, after this pass to Lee as well. 'cause I think obviously in lockdown a lot of people weren't going out shopping in the store, so a lot of that consumer behavior did shift online [00:09:00] and those patterns changed. So people were, you know, exploring new things, looking for different ways to purchase.

And we really saw a boom in terms of. People coming to Klarna and trying new things and really using us as an exploration site. So going into the app, like dwelling on the content and really having a look at different media types, like one, maybe people had the time on their hands, but two, I think consumer behavior shopped and that people wanted to research more.

Uh, really shop at trusted brands and you know, really look at other metrics outside of, I don't know what [00:09:30] traditionally was the cheapest, for example. Yeah. So we actually had a platform with our content where we could elevate that.

Lee: I think the retail side of our business is. It is still the, the biggest part of our business.

Mm-hmm. It outweighs the digital by quite a lot. So yeah. When kind of everyone's stuck indoor, they can't go to the high street, they can't go to their local store. They did turn to other partner types and there were a few particular partners, but Klarna was one of them where we just saw like a massive uptick.

Yeah. Um, kind of looking back at the data, I think there was a lot of uncertainty at the time as well. So I think being out to. Buy now, pay later.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Lee: Kind of gave people that little bit of extra security when they were buying something. Kind of makes the, the purchase a [00:10:00] bit more manageable as well.

Rob: You've obviously done like a huge amount in terms of building the brand awareness of both Klarna and the, the payment solution itself. And do you think that piece, in terms of becoming known as A-B-M-P-L provider has been something that you've had to then make another effort to then explain to brands?

Actually there's all these other things that we can do as well. And has that been a, a challenge for you guys?

I

Catherine: wouldn't necessarily say a challenge, but I think an education piece. Mm-hmm. And we've been fortunate to have partners such as Awin, um, who will facilitate publisher spotlights. Yeah. And allowing us to [00:10:30] really tell that story.

And I think with a hypergrowth brand like Klarna, we suddenly did a lot. All at once, and it was how do we distill that and make that meaningful to our partners? So our three core performance orientated channels are ads, search and affiliate. And we can almost sort of work with you in a variety of ways based on your objectives.

So it's been very much a case of understanding what our partners need and working that backwards so that we can provide incremental value.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah,

Lee: and I think internally we've probably had the [00:11:00] same battle of, you know, people come to me and say, well, why would we do cash back through Klarna? Why would you work with influencers through Klan?

It's like, well, it's kind of sticking everything together. Mm-hmm. Those Klarna customers are now coming because they know they're gonna get cash back, and if our competitors are doing, we are gonna lose out. You know, they're going to klarna for content and influencers and kind of be given that nudge where to.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. So is that, has that been a challenge for you internally to have to make that argument? Or has it been a relatively easy conversation to have?

Lee: I think it doesn't take long to kind of change people's minds. Yeah. But yeah, there've been a few difficult conversations [00:11:30] Yeah. Shall we say.

Rob: And what does change their minds?

What would you say is the, the kind of. Single factor or I

Lee: think it's the strength of, of the fact that we're doing it with Klarna. I think everyone knows how big a partner they are.

Rob: It's the equity of the brand in some

Lee: ways. Yeah. On both the affiliates and the payment side, you know, we, we we're fully aware of kind of how important Klarna are to us.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: So the fact that it's Klarna, doing cashback or Klarna doing influencers makes it a little bit easier for people to understand and kind of get on board with.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And so I'd love to understand from internally you have your team and your department, your focus and objectives and goals. Is there kind of like a connective [00:12:00] tissue between the stuff that you're doing with Klarna and how you're working with them that has helped to show the business internally, like this is a really valuable partnership because we've been able to do X, which is supporting this much broader business goal?

Lee: Yeah, so I think the brand's kind of main thing is always about growth. You know, we want to, we want to grow, we want to continue to grow. But brand awareness, new customer acquisition is always the big things for us. We've recently been working with influencers, which has been great, but the touch paper that kind of ignited that for us was working with influencers with Klarna.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Lee: Um, in some of the smaller [00:12:30] markets and just kind of saying, look, it does work and because we are able to track it through awin and things like that, we can prove the incrementality that we can prove. You know, it's assisted sales, it was top of funnel and things like that. So that's kind of really, really helped us out.

Again, I think because Klarna cover all points of the funnel, it kind of aligns to kind of every bit.

Rob: Mm

Lee: of our kind of overall strategy. So it's been really, really helpful.

Rob: And was there, um, from a demographic perspective, thinking about your customer profile, was there a natural affinity, do you think, with the Klarna product and the Klarna brand?

Lee: I think so, yeah. I mean, we, we pride ourself on being like a brand that, that kind of [00:13:00] stands up for the youth.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And I think Klarna kind of coming in at the same time, just kind of got that audience on board.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: But yeah, just kind of aligned with, with our, um, with our kind of core demographic.

Rob: Yeah,

Lee: almost exactly.

Really.

Rob: Yeah. I get the impression from speaking to you both that there's like, um, a real recognition of the fact that you've got a brand in JT that are very innovative and forward progressive thinking around how they approach their program. So I would presume that that's like the ideal brand partner for you, right?

Catherine: Absolutely. We have a very good working relationship with sort of Lee and obviously the wider team as well. [00:13:30] Um, and I like they're not. Afraid to challenge me.

Rob: Mm.

Catherine: You know, the team will come back to me and say, you know, we need to push this a little bit harder. We want to increase purchase frequency. We have a vast coverage of consumers who are coming and buying only once at jd, but how do we convert them to buy more and keep coming back?

And I think having those challenges from the team allows me to go away and look at different strategies across loyalty. Um, omnichannel now is obviously a big focus, so we've got that online shopper. How do we also. Push them in store. [00:14:00] Mm. And track that. Mm-hmm. Um, and vice versa and really understand that consumer.

So I really, really enjoyed working with the team for that reason.

Rob: Yeah.

Catherine: And I think we have a, a mutual appetite for growth, so we can go away, figure it out and come back with something pretty cool.

Rob: J d's often one of the first to work with a lot of Klan's new features, um, products that they're, they're rolling out.

Why is that?

Lee: I'd like to think it's 'cause they think we're really, really good at what we do.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And we really cut. Yeah. That's it really. Um, we are not afraid to try new things. A brand as big as jd, you know, like [00:14:30] everyone knows who we are.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: Everyone has probably bought something from us. So to get that extra 1%, we have to kind of

Rob: mm,

Lee: look for the new and innovative ideas.

So when a partner that we trust and work with as, as well as we do with Klarna, come to us and say, you know, we've got this new thing. We are, um, really, really keen to kind of, to kind of jump on it.

Speaker 5: Mm.

Lee: From day one. So I think as soon as. We found out cashback was coming to the uk. The first thing we did is sent the email.

How do we get involved with this? Yeah. How do we be part of the test?

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And things like that because we know it's gonna add those little extra incremental bits. Yeah. Kind of as we go along.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: Like say we, you [00:15:00] know, we are embedded in In youth culture.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And youth culture doesn't stand still. Yeah.

So we have to kind of keep moving with it. So everything that the brand does from marketing to the partners we work with, to our approach to. Stores, um, and online

Rob: mm-hmm.

Lee: Is kind of constantly moving and evolving. So having a partner like Klarna, also working through a one as well, we are never kind of resting on our laurels.

Mm. You know, we're always challenging each other and, and, and pushing each other and kind of seeing what's the next new thing that we can do.

Rob: Mm-hmm. Is that unusual in a brand, Catherine, in your experience?

Catherine: I think so, yeah. I think that [00:15:30] growth mindset. Mm-hmm. Especially. In this day and age, you know, everyone's naturally very budget conscious and rightly so is what we've kind of forgotten to do.

Yeah. And invest in. And you know, we've seen double digit growth with JD this year, which for a brand of jds size mm-hmm. You know, JD on every high street, you know, it's everywhere. Where are you gonna find these consumers? Mm-hmm. But we've managed, um, and I think, you know, we've spoken a lot about the overlap in our consumer base, but also something that might surprise you about Klarna is that we actually cover.

All demographics, um, across like [00:16:00] a, a wide, wide range of locations as well. So it's how do we drive those consumers to JD to continue to grow the brand. So not only looking at the UK as well, but other markets, other brands within the portfolio. There's sort of a wealth of, you know, opportunity our fingertips and it's how do we distill that to something meaningful.

Lisa: This podcast is brought to you by Awin. Whatever your marketing challenge, whether it's reaching new audiences, stretching, limited resources, or driving stronger results, Awin [00:16:30] helps you find the partners who can solve it. Our platform connects brands with trusted partners who enhance your campaigns and only get paid when they deliver real outcomes.

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Because of that diverse array of touch points that you're working with Klarna on, do you then have to think about how we measuring the effectiveness and [00:17:00] impact of this stuff? Because, you know, it's not all equal necessarily.

Lee: The days where. You know, customers would come through one channel and one click and buy something.

Yeah. A are gone. So what was that film that came up? Is it everything everywhere? All at once? Yeah.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: That's kind of our marketing approach now. So, you know, having a partner that we know can convert customers through the app, customers are going there for shopping as well. How do we then inspire them throughout the rest of their journey?

Can we get them at the top of the funnel and tell 'em about a new product or a new line that's coming out? Is this something we can do in the mid funnel just to make sure they're aware? Do we need to give them that little cash [00:17:30] back incentive to get them over the line? Nowadays where people are so conscious with money as well, it's just kind of giving them every little nudge we can just to kind of help them out and things like that.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what does that look like from your side, Catherine, in terms of supporting the visibility around the reporting and helping Lee and the team to quantify the value of the marketing touch points that they're working with you on?

Catherine: Yeah, so it's obviously, um, a great question. And I've said already that Lee is a data analyst.

Mm-hmm. So he will hold me accountable. Um, and I, but I think what's really important to note is. That we're fortunate that we [00:18:00] have a partner like Awin. Mm-hmm. So I think Awin is market leading in terms of the performance insights, dashboard access and reporting tools that we have. So spelling everything from, you know, multitouch point attribution to dynamic commissioning.

Mm-hmm. Which makes my life a lot easier. And then obviously from Klan's perspective, we work with the team on benchmarking. Where are they over-indexing? Where are they under indexing, not only from uh, a placement type. Perspective, but also like markets, new markets, product types. [00:18:30] Oh hey, have you tried this?

This is working here. Maybe don't invest so much in this channel at the moment, but shift a bit of budget here. Mm-hmm. How can we be a little bit more strategic? And I think, um, the beauty of, you know, Klarna is that we have a wealth of first party data at our fingertips, and it's really how can we leverage this across our marketing channels to be a little bit more.

Targeted in the terms of the publishing offering that we're giving our partners. So while we might not necessarily share that, um, we can certainly be a lot more targeted and thoughtful in the [00:19:00] publishing offering that we're showing to the consumer, which is what's sort of leading to that, uh, success in terms of.

Who we're engaging and how they're shopping.

Rob: Yeah, yeah. Makes sense.

Lee: Because I was an analyst for five, six years at some, some quite big brands. I'm used to kind of dealing with a huge amount of data and kind of digging through it and trying to find where the incrementality lies and where the issues are and where the opportunities are.

So one of the first things I did when I got to JD was kind of pick apart all the data and it kind of gave me a list of partners that I thought there's some opportunities here and a list of partners that made me thought we need to have a word with them. Klan was kind of [00:19:30] top of that list. So from kind of quite early on, we knew there was.

There was opportunity there.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: Yeah. As, as Catherine said, you know, when stuff gets sent over, I'll, I do go through it with a fine tooth comb kind of thing. So sort of nothing kind of slips through our net

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: As it were. But it's just, again, it's just building that trust. You know, we, we trust the data that gets sent over to us through going through our own data.

We kind of know where the opportunities lies. It's very easy for us to measure what's worked and what hasn't.

Rob: Mm.

Lee: And when things don't go to plan, we just have a very honest conversation about it. It's never like a, oh, we're not working with them again. Yeah. Yeah. Why have you done this? It's just kind of like, [00:20:00] okay, but this didn't work.

Yeah. You know, how can we improve it for next time? Do we need to to spend less on this and maybe put the money somewhere else? Yeah. And then kind of just like to touch on the, the data that we use. Obviously we have a one, which is great, kind of helps us with kind of funnel position and assisted conversions, which is quite a big thing for us.

Then the elephant in the room is, is GA four mm. Which is, you know, affiliate's worst nightmare. But for us, Klarna attributes really, really well, and I dunno if that's because it has. You know, uses the in-app browser. Yeah. So we've got app to app tracking set up and things like that, but it just performs really well.

So our business look [00:20:30] at GA four as kind of the, you know, the one source of truth Yeah. Mm-hmm. And all that kind of stuff. But when a partner like Klarna is performing really well, again, it builds the trust with the wider business. Mm. To when I'm talking to my bosses or other teams and saying that. Oh, I need X amount of money 'cause I want to do this with Klan.

And there's very rarely any questions because people understand that it's gonna perform.

Rob: Yeah, I think that's one of the characteristics that I've seen from a lot of really positive partnerships that we've had on the podcast previously actually, is that there is that trust that has been established over time and through several different campaigns, et cetera.

And I think that there, on [00:21:00] the brand side particularly, there is an almost, um. Recognition of it being like a reciprocal relationship and that there is a deference sometimes to the partner being an expert in whatever, whether it's to do with their audience or whether it's to do with the ad model or the, the types of promotions that they do.

There is a degree to which the brand is like, okay, let me. Listen to you and you tell me what your kind of informed opinion on this should be, and we will kind of, um, follow your lead on that to a degree because we trust your expertise and we trust that you know your audience really, really well. [00:21:30] And I think that's what's quite unique about the affiliate channel.

And to some degrees this feels much more interactive and it's a bit more agile in that sense as well.

Lee: I think one of the big things I've had in my time in affiliates is realizing when you're working with partners, you need to let them speak to their audience in their own language. Mm. You know, whether it's an influencer or someone like that, you could instantly tell when they're kind of reading from the script.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And all of a sudden they can, their tone of voice. Yeah. And the things they say and the audience can see through it straight away. Yeah. So with a partner like Kana, we know how engaged their audience is. So we will sit down with the K client team and kind of say, this is what we want to do and this is how we think we're gonna [00:22:00] do it.

But

Rob: yeah,

Lee: can you come back to us with some ideas and how would you put the client spin on it and how would you put it into your language? Yeah. And I think that's why the partnership worked so well. It's because of this trust and, and you know, we are hard on you guys sometimes, but you know, we come to you with an idea.

Sometimes we come to you without an idea and we just say, we want to do this, and we dunno how to do it. Yeah. And you'll always come back with a plan. Yeah. And nine times outta 10 it works.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: But I think again, again, it's just kind of putting the, that trust into your hands and kind of letting you speak to the audience in the way that, you know, works for them.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: Um, as opposed to just kind of Yeah. Just. JD Sports is [00:22:30] their best. And because,

Rob: I mean, have you tried that? Have you been, has there been any kinda standout anomalies or outliers of examples like that where you, something like whether it's from like a, a segment of your audience particularly that has resonated with JD or a particular promotion that stood out, or for instance, a certain products that has suddenly kind of flown off the shelves, thanks to a promotion you've done with the client that you weren't expecting maybe to be as successful as it was?

Lee: This is partly down to us and partly down to just things getting more expensive.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: There's been a lot of new [00:23:00] Air Max trainers coming out this year. Yeah. And the prices are going up and up and up. Yeah. And initially we saw alignment between sneaker websites selling those products for us, and it's now moved to Klan selling those products for us.

Oh,

Rob: right.

Lee: Okay. 'cause I think people go, I know this shoe's coming out, I really, really want it.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Lee: But you know, last year it was 155 quid, now it's 185.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: How am I gonna pay for that? Yeah. Oh, Klarna got it.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: Or I've got Klarna, they're pushing jd. Oh, and there's cash back. Yeah. Kind of all of a sudden it becomes a much better value proposition.

Yeah. As opposed to that person who's camped out outside a shop all [00:23:30] night and has had to, you know, get cold and wet and pay 185 quid for the shoot. You know, the person that's hired shop, God bless that person. Yeah, yeah. Bless. They're braver than I am, but I think that that. Consumer that's at home shopping through the client app is getting a much better experience.

Yeah. And feels like they're getting that extra little bit of value as well.

Catherine: Just to build on that, it's how can we capitalize on those sort of gorilla or viral moments. Mm-hmm. But also pull out like product data and product details and make it really easy for the consumer to shop.

Mm-hmm.

So we're fortunate that JD probably has [00:24:00] like one of the most amount of skews I've ever seen.

But a very well kept like product data catalog. Um, and obviously Klarna, you know, we acquired one of the biggest, uh, price comparison sites in the world. So we are, you know, well ahead in terms of data structuring and how we can index those product fees into our app. So I think it makes the products discoverable and searchable.

So, you know, if you're, if you're going for a viral moment sneaker, you know what you want, but also, uh, for those more aspirational shoppers, how can you surface more within the, the product mix as well?

Rob: Anything that [00:24:30] stood out from you? From the, the partnership in terms of individual campaigns?

Catherine: Yeah, so I'm actually going to flip that on its head a bit and say it's not so much the standalone campaigns whilst they've performed well, it's the fact that we've also taken an always on approach.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: And I think. About continual growth and the fact that we are continually speaking to both consumer sets is what's allowed us to optimize over time.

Mm-hmm.

So the Klan of publishing offering is, you know, it's continually optimizing for outbound app traffic. We're very, very [00:25:00] focused on driving the consumer back to your site.

They're your shopper, we want 'em to shop with you. Um, so it's how can we speak their language, continue to drive purchase frequency whilst look for growth in a OV. Um, so to your point earlier, Lee, if they're only buying trainers, how can we upsell or cross-sell into other categories? And I think it's the editorial content that's really spoken to that as well.

You know, and that's where influences have been really powerful and more of that upper funnel stuff. Again, it's converting that. You know, low [00:25:30] purchase frequency consumer into someone who's coming back and buying more, um, and converting more frequently.

Rob: How do you feel like the partnership has evolved over the duration of your time working on it and what's next in the future?

Catherine: The media partnership's only five years old, which actually isn't very old when you think about it. And. When I go back five years, we were literally just booking in banner ads in the app, which feels quite archaic now in the world. That's very like, dynamic and personalized. So I think from a, an offering and a media perspective, we've evolved a lot [00:26:00] as a company in terms of what we can offer jd, but then from a partnership perspective, it's how can we leverage all of those different touchpoints to create sort of a multi touchpoint strategy that's quite meaningful.

Mm-hmm. Um, and when I look ahead, I think the. Next challenge for us is that omnichannel and loyalty piece. So literally leveraging membership programs, cash back, um, and then yeah, build that into a wider loyalty piece. Uh, that's omni-channel, not just in the apps.

Speaker 5: Yeah,

Lee: I think omnichannel is a big focus for us.

Mm. As I said at the start, we've got stores [00:26:30] on pretty much every high streak, so it's how do we join the dots between online and offline? I think personalization as well. Mm-hmm. I think for us is quite a big thing. JD being such a broad brand. Mm-hmm. Speak to so many different people and different demographics of people.

So what can we do with Kna to, you know, make sure people are kind of getting the right message at the right time.

Rob: And is there anything in kind of, um, you know, it feels like the pace of change is rapid at the moment and it, it's only getting quicker. Is there anything that you're seeing in changing consumer trends or behaviors that are also.

Probably help shape or inform the evolution of [00:27:00] this partnership.

Lee: I think the big thing is that trends have got so much shorter.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: With like TikTok and things like that. Yeah. We do still see those kind of regional trends. Mm-hmm. You know, what do people wear in London versus Liverpool and you know, what are people in France wearing versus in Spain.

But trends used to be. Two or three years.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: And now a shoe is cool. For six months we'll sell hundreds and hundreds of pairs, and then next summer it's in the sale.

Yeah.

Lee: And nobody wants it.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: So it's just kind of having to kinda just be like agile and be ready.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: For kind of what the next trend is.

Because I think a lot of the trends are being taken out of brands [00:27:30] and, and companies like ours, hands, it's coming from people on social media.

Rob: Yeah.

Lee: So it's just, yeah. That kind of thing of how do we kind of try and stay on top of that.

Rob: It's exhausting.

Lee: Yeah. I spend a lot more time on TikTok than I should do.

Catherine: Yeah. What is the cool shoe? Tell

Rob: us. Are you wearing it?

Lee: I'm wearing them, yeah. But yeah, I think that's, it's such a big thing for us at the moment. It's just like trends and how quickly they change and how, how do we kind of keep up with 'em and be there from kind of day one.

Rob: Yeah. And I guess that reemphasizes the value of, you know, you're talking about.

A lot of these trends are emanating from social platforms. Influencers are often [00:28:00] shaping these trends. It makes much more sense to have that direct kind of partnership with those influencers and creators where you can as well.

Lee: Yeah. I think if we know what the trends are and we know customers are shopping through like an app, like Kliner and using it for discovery, then it's like, what else can we do together to make sure that.

We are telling them about these trends and kind of things like that, and the people that do know the trends, how we showing them the right products.

Rob: Yeah,

Catherine: yeah, yeah. To Lee's point about trends being so much shorter, mm. From a publisher perspective, we need to make sure that we're reactive. Mm-hmm. Again, we'll all know the affiliate channel can be a little bit adamant heavy and a bit laborious with regards to [00:28:30] looking in assets, signing off promo codes, and you know, I used to pride myself as affiliate manager of the year, booking in all my Q4 by August.

But trends in August are not gonna be the same when you get into Peak and Black Friday. So it's how can we accommodate that, accommodate last minute changes your trading, how can we support that while still maintaining, you know, a, a publishing offering as, uh, robust as the K Cloud app? And I think that's where, um, leveraging product feed data.

Pulling through certain skews is getting a [00:29:00] lot more dynamic. Yeah. And personalized. Um, to Lee's point earlier then, I think from a, a payment perspective, trends we're seeing is definitely a shift in how consumers are shopping. So it's not only buy now, pay later, or pay three, it's also pay now, it, it's very dependent on the vertical, but people are using Klarna for the ease and the trust and the security.

Not necessarily associating it with, you know, a, a buy now pay later or fast fashion. Mm-hmm. Um, in terms of like payments, it's how can we see what consumer wants and [00:29:30] where they're shopping and how mm-hmm. Like via what channels, what entry points. I think shopping's getting a lot more conversational.

Patrick: Mm-hmm.

Catherine: Gone on the days I think, of trolling through loads and loads of Google search results. Mm-hmm. To find, you know, the best option or a review. People are, you know, leveraging. AI and programs like that to, to really search for products these days.

Patrick: Well, a big thanks to Lee and Catherine for jumping onto the podcast today. Tell us more about how they partnered together via awin.

Rob: And a massive thanks [00:30:00] for listening today. And also a special thanks for joining me too, Patrick. Um, hopefully next time you're on, we can have you actually take the lead on the interview.

How are your interviewing skills? Are you, are you up there as one of the paxman or,

Patrick: okay, well, maybe one step at a time, please, Rob. Um, please go ahead and subscribe if you haven't already. While you're at it, why not give us a review of five stars, please.

Rob: Well said, well said. Uh, we'll be back in just a couple of weeks time with another great episode of.

This brand new series. We'll be featuring a chat about affiliate payments with the [00:30:30] trade body, the A PMA, and also the payment solution, Robin.

Patrick: Well, thanks Rob. And until next time, thanks for listening to the Awin-Win Marketing podcast where we show you how partner marketing always offers Awin-win.

Rob: Bye.