Dr Julie Grail - Yiannis - Edit here
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Yiannis: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the Better Places podcast. I'm Jan from Concilio, and today we'll be discussing the proposed overnight visitor levy. It may not be the biggest headline in terms of local governors coming out this week, but it certainly is important and I'm delighted to be joined here today by Dr.

Yiannis: Julie Grail, longstanding business improvement districts expert advisor to beats of all sizes across the uk. And founder of the Beats business. Julie, thank you for joining us.

Dr Julie Grail: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Yiannis: And as we're recording this, the overnight visitor levy consultation has just closed. There has been considerable noise around it, including questions about whether it's appropriate, how it should be designed, and what it could mean for businesses.

Yiannis: But I think at the heart of the debate, the bigger issue is can this be structured as a genuine growth mechanism, unlocking investment in places, or will it just be. Perceived as just another tax on already struggling hospitality industry. Julie, [00:01:00] with all of that in mind, as the consultation has wrapped up, can you take us through the background and explain why this moment matters for London and other cities, in England?

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, sure. Thank you, Anni. I, I think it's really interesting you said there's been a lot of noise around it because it's been incredible over the last four or five weeks. the amount of conversation and discussion and debate and media that's followed this, even though in a way it's a relatively small tax, it's a relatively kind of microeconomic, intervention, but it's really struck a chord and in a negative way.

Dr Julie Grail: And I guess I'll start by saying, I think it's probably wrong tax, wrong time, but let me tell you a bit of the background. So, So many people have said to me in the last few weeks who don't understand like, what's the problem? Two pound a night from a tourist? What, what's the big deal? And of course, that's not what it is really, we're we're overlaid with a [00:02:00] whole series of issues that make this quite complicated.

Dr Julie Grail: So I guess the starting point is, Scotland went first with legislation, and Edinburgh will be the first, location in Scotland to, to put their tourist levy on. And that'll start from July of this year. two other cities, Aberdeen and Glasgow will be, also having taxes in place. Wales have the legislation to do so, but haven't progressed it any further.

Dr Julie Grail: So England has been on catch up anyway, so there's been a kind of. Prospect of this coming despite government for quite some time saying it wasn't gonna come. And ultimately it's, I think from a policy point of view, it's seen as an opportunity to devolve power locally to provide a local funding opportunity and in principle from an econ economical point of view.

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, that makes sense. The trouble is, as I say, kind of wrong time is. We are already in a [00:03:00] position where places are desperately struggling for funds. We need more money. We definitely need more budget, to invest in the kind of basics of clean and safe. You know, public funding is really squeezed and there's a whole load of issues attached to it, but is this the right way to do it? guess what we've discussed with hoteliers and with other partners over the last few weeks leading up to this consultation is. The pinch points and the reasons why we should or shouldn't have this. So let me tell you a few points. I suppose the starting point is. This is being called a visit visitor levy, but is it really a levy?

Dr Julie Grail: A levy is when there's ring-fenced ated. Spend back to those that, for the benefit of those, that fund. And at the moment there's no safeguards in that consultation that suggests the money sufficiently would be ring fenced back to the visitor economy. So that's first real concern and that's what's coming out of hoteliers.

Dr Julie Grail: Come on, we're just getting [00:04:00] taxed again for something that we are not gonna see, or indeed influenced. Big concern. Second piece is there's this presumption that it's just a tax on tourists. So what's the big deal? It's kind of new money. It's external money. It's not in the data across, central London where we've done a lot of work with the hoteliers, one of the big western hotels that you would expect to have, its main business coming internationally.

Dr Julie Grail: 50% of its business comes from domestic visitors. So this isn't international money. This is our money. This is our people. The next piece of the jigsaw, I suppose, is around competitiveness and how price elastic are these hotels in relation to a levy. Because again, so many people on uninitiated and without looking into this say, what's the big deal?

Dr Julie Grail: Two pound a night and a 300 pound a night room. It's no big deal, but add that. Day on day family of four across a week, it's becomes quite a significant amount of money when already [00:05:00] we are hearing actually from all around the country, but particularly from the London hotels that we've spoken to at length, already really up against it from a competitiveness point of view.

Dr Julie Grail: The already highest global. Ate for tourism. They're already highest airport taxes. They're already looking incredibly expensive across the global city destinations, so they don't feel like they are in a position where they've got some headroom for extra cost. you look at places that have done it, and this is what a lot of people will say, but it's okay.

Dr Julie Grail: Those places have a tourist tax, it's fine. There's a lot of reasons why you have a tourist tax. And the best example, because it's one of the newest that people keep saying, well, it's fine, is Venice. The reason Venice have put a tax in place is they have a significant problem of overt tourism. They're trying to stop visitors coming.

Dr Julie Grail: They're pricing it on a kind of traffic light system to actually stop. [00:06:00] Customers visiting. That's the last thing we want to happen in our, in our cities. So, you know, if you're about overt tourism, if you're about increasing sustainability and you're putting a tax on for those reasons, there's a valid way of doing it.

Dr Julie Grail: That's not what we're about in, in our, English tourism, destinations at the moment. And I guess the final point at this, at this stage, I would say is the reason why it's also the wrong time is. Businesses in hospitality, all businesses, but businesses in hospitality have really experienced a stacking of costs over the last couple of years that are just becoming. Completely, unachievable from a profit point of view. So national insurance has already massively, hit, hit them minimum and or indeed living wage is a, is a big cost on them. When recruitment is already a struggle and the staff retention is already a struggle, we've already had the loss of tax-free shopping, which has had a big impact on international tourism into, particularly into London, but all the big cities. [00:07:00] As I said, we've already got the highest global VAT rate for tourism and soon to come 1st of April, we've got this absolutely extortionate hike on business rates. Hotels on average across the west end will have a 117% hike on business rates. All of that makes it so incredibly difficult for them to see an additional cost at a time where profit is a real struggle. it's a worry. It's a real worry.

Yiannis: I think you really hit the mark here, and from the conversations I have been having with the industry throughout, I think there is this, underlying assumption in this narrative that there is, that, demand for hotels, in London and, England's whole is price in elastic and whatever happens, we will be able to find a way, to get the visitors.

Yiannis: And there are the comparisons with, as you said, Venice, Barcelona, Rome. These cities that already have, the overnight visitor levy, but this is different regulatory regimes, different tax [00:08:00] regimes. And I think you explained it well when it comes to these competitiveness points on why it works and why it doesn't.

Yiannis: So when it comes to actually making the case for it, where do you see the strongest case for these being made? In terms of actually being able to, succeed if it does, get implemented.

Dr Julie Grail: Well, there's a couple of examples of regional cities, Liverpool and Manchester, who have got their accommodation bid levy in place, and they've done that in a way where they've sort of slightly circumvented the bid legislation and have put a tourist charge on the front of a, of a bid. So the charge is not actually a tax on tourists, but to all intents and purposes of it's in terms and conditions, the tourist is, is. Is paying that levy and it's being then, collected into a fund run by a bid by the businesses and. In essence, in those regional cities, it's being directly used as a subvention fund, so it's directly investing in bringing major events to the city that fills the [00:09:00] hotel rooms. So some of the hotels in that environment can absolutely see the win.

Dr Julie Grail: Now, I have to say, not all of them do. We've got hotels who are located in a variety of places, including those cities, and they don't like. That levy. But nevertheless, they've both won a ballot and they are running that, initiative. So there is a case where if you can directly ate, spend back to the value of a hotel, they might invest. But, but when you then look at scale, if you go much smaller than Liverpool or Manchester. You actually haven't got enough hotels to warrant the sum of money to, to, well after you put take an admin away to actually bring enough money to make it a difference. there's been a lot of interest in looking at accommodation bids, and in fact, so far it is only livable and Manchester who have got through a ballot.

Dr Julie Grail: Just, recently, yet, literally in the last two days, Harrier bid is the latest one that. [00:10:00] Harrogate area, went to ballot and has failed. Its its ballot. there are only 15 hotels and they failed a ballot. So this isn't universally supported by hotels at all. and before that, both Cambridge area and Bournemouth area tried to, to get ballots off the ground.

Dr Julie Grail: So even with the hotels themselves, they can't necessarily see sufficient value out of a combined investment. When you take it to the London scene, though. It's even more stark, I think. It isn't easy to see being when fenced into a subvention fund because the complex nature of London, it just isn't as straightforward as doing that. I say, there is money needed and if there was a real guarantee of ring fencing and. Directly working alongside the existing delivery partners, the local authorities, and the bids. We might see some useful investment, but at the moment, the safeguards just aren't there for the legislation, so there just isn't the [00:11:00] support to see it coming through.

Yiannis: No, I totally agree. I think this is the main, I think there is a lot of questions around this, and this is the main thing. I'm not sure if it's a narrative, and communications problem or more about the actual structure and the way, the consultation document was drafted. But I do agree. So moving on into more to the specifics away from the macro, but more of the micro, what are you hearing more consistently from the industry and from them?

Yiannis: Support you have provided in terms of the actual specifics on how these potential level could be designed, what are the key pinch points for, the hoteliers and what are these key things that they would really like to see to get the confidence that, might make it worth supporting? Especially as you mentioned, the allocation of funds being a big, point.

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, so it's interesting. One of the, one of the key kind of discussions that's been going on is if this comes in. Would we want percentage or flat fee? And, in the consultation there's a presumption that percentage is a better idea, because the [00:12:00] flat fee immediately becomes a aggressive tax. So it's, you know, it's more expensive on the budget hotels.

Dr Julie Grail: And so the budget hotels don't like the flat fee model, however. a real nervousness of the percentage rate being so high that it becomes a really high burden to the higher value properties and then indeed to the customer. I think where we, we fell on the response was, the model that they have in Paris, which is. a flat fee but banded so that you've got away from some of that regressive nature of it. But you've got clarity about what a customer is expected to pay in each kind of, you know, star of hotel. And that being a, a, a fixed number rather than a percentage variable that could become really quite unmanageable.

Dr Julie Grail: So that's first thing, even how you charge is just not that straightforward. There's quite a lot of discussion then about whether you have a, maximum period. So for Edinburgh, they've put maximum five consecutive days so that it doesn't carry on as a, [00:13:00] a total tax on every day that you stay. really mixed views on it.

Dr Julie Grail: A lot, a lot of hoteliers are saying, if you're gonna do it, we need it as simple as possible from an admin point of view, so just bill it every day. You've got the budget end of the market, who are saying absolutely no way. Have you seen the cost that that would put on a two week holiday for a, for a family of four in Butlins, for example.

Dr Julie Grail: A lot of work on this last week, and it went into the media that. The increase of a family holiday on a budget hotel is enormous if you have no, no cap. So those kind of semantics are, you know, critically important that we understand the implications of those things. Beyond that, there was a lot of debate around, the, the broad concept of. In essence, the liable party would be the hotel. So there's a privatization of the tax liability. So a hotel is being expected to become a tax collector with then a, an a [00:14:00] self-assessment process that then they pass on the funds. It all feels a little bit uncomfortable, and it puts an enormous admin burden onto a hotel.

Dr Julie Grail: So we got one of the hotels in the West end to run some figures for us on the. Basis of them carrying a five pound a night charge, a, as a visitor levy, and to talk through with us what the implications were on admin. They worked out 70%. Of that five pound charge, and I would be attributed to on them, handling admin, bookkeeping accounting, and then finally managing their own tax.

Dr Julie Grail: So there's a huge burden, admin burden on the hotel themselves. So one of the things we've lobbied for is. There shouldn't be a hundred percent pass through from a hotel to the collecting authority. They need an admin charge attributed to them, otherwise they're losing out a second time. There is a conversation within [00:15:00] collect, within the, uh, consultation about the collecting authority being able to have an admin charge, but not the hotel itself.

Dr Julie Grail: So if a hotel is gonna be a tax collector, they need to be able to be able to put a charge on it. so that's kind of a. practical piece. The next practical piece that's come out, which I, I think is quite an interesting unintended consequence that, again, I'm not sure people really have thought through. What we've heard from the west, from the west end in London is many of the hotels have a voluntary service charge payable by customers at the counter, sort of in lieu of the old cash tips principle. that money is in many cases, commonly about 5%. It. reasonably willingly paid, not paid by everybody, but reasonably willingly paid. And that goes directly into Trunk, which is the fund that basically supplements staff wages. So it goes to all staff and it supplements, the ability to recruit and retain staff [00:16:00] despite having all those high, admin costs with living wage. And, and I. They feel very strongly the hotel operators faced at the counter with a 5% service charge and tourist tax stroke levy. You won't pay both, you'll only pay one and you'll only pay the one you're mandated to pay. So they potentially lose quite a lot of top up of income that goes directly onto staff. That's a huge unintended consequence in this market when already, staff costs are enormous, and as I say, is really hard on the industry.

Yiannis: I think this is very interesting, the point you made, and I know you mentioned earlier about. Needing this to be as standardized as possible to reduce the admin costs as much as possible, because as you say, this will cause a huge administrative burden, both, on the collector, which is the hotels, but also at the same time from a local authority perspective.

Yiannis: Do you see it in some [00:17:00] areas? essentially this becoming a bit more fast than actually good. with respect to the admin cost as it will raise. And at the same time, the amount of, money that will actually be end up raising, because obviously we're not talking about, London. We're talking about, mayor across, England.

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, when you look at, I'll be careful who I name here. Because they're not necessarily public information at the moment, but when you look at, I know a large city outside London 28 hotels, and on two pounds a night, it would only make 2 million a year, and that's before you've put any admin burden on it. Does it really feel like it's gonna make any difference at. million a year is that really, you know, we are talking about budget gaps that are significantly more than that. And if in that process you jeopardize the success of its existing city bid, that brings in three or 4 million a year and delivers so much more than just for the visitor economy, it feels [00:18:00] like, quite a challenging balance to make when you go down at tier.

Dr Julie Grail: So that's a major metropolitan city when you go down at tier. These smaller locations, they simply don't have enough hotels in, its in the region to warrant and to bring enough money in. Anyway, so I think this isn't for everywhere, it's for London and the top tier metropolitan cities. and as you say, once you've put all those other admin burdens in and the jeopardy that you put on existing systems, it's questionable how widespread it might be.

Yiannis: No, I certainly agree. This is very much in line with all of the conversations I have been having with the industry and. I think another aspect of the rink fence, nature of the allocation of funds that you've mentioned previously. I was doing some reading for this and I read a bit about the Barcelona arguments and, how the money is being used and where, which sectors is actually the money of the area per se.

Yiannis: And I think that's another. Potential problem when we're talking about [00:19:00] raising this amount of public money and for the local authority, then how is this money going to be spent and how do you essentially bring, face it on the visitor economy and not in other services, which are obviously important.

Yiannis: And we'll always, always feel the pressures as well. So I think that's another balance that needs to be, that needs to be thought about, in the future design of, of a potential levy.

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, I mean this has really very much been brought up in the conversation around Edinburgh because Edinburgh is kind of first to market, as I say, and it's not quite there yet, really. In real terms, but there's a real nervousness about, I mean, the numbers that are being banded around in Edinburgh, and it will remain to be seen whether these are the right numbers, is. 50 million a year, they think they can, they can collect via their visitor levy proposition. And of that 50 million, at the moment, it looks like only about 5 million would be redirected into things that we would call visitor economy. [00:20:00] The other 45 million is I think, funding. Black holes of local authority, and there's quite a question mark over what we consider to be visitor economy investment and what we don't. There's no doubt. I think everybody running cities, everyone involved in place management cities knows we need more money. We do need to improve, clean and safe. We do need to improve the visitor or proposition, but it does go back to being sure that this actually funds the things that are needed by the investors and makes sufficient difference.

Dr Julie Grail: And I go back to the Venice example. you are putting an access tax on an area that has significant overt tourism and you're trying to reduce demand, you are not con concerned about price competitiveness. You're just scooping money off the top because there's enough there be able to take it away and reinvest, and you're still not impacting the market.

Dr Julie Grail: You're actually actively trying to [00:21:00] stop. Customers coming to the place that's not in, in the environment that we're, they're in any, actually, in any of our cities. Certainly not, not in London. So yeah, that balance, and I think as I started this, session, the single biggest concern is, is this levy or is it attacks?

Dr Julie Grail: Will the money directly be ring fenced back into things that we. Believe will make a difference to the visitor economy and if it will, whilst it still might be wrong time and wrong tax, we might see some value out of it. But if it's not ring-fenced, if it doesn't get ated, it's just, it's just costing a sector that's already massively overburdened.

Yiannis: I totally agree and I think, just think about landowner example as well. There is also, a bit of a governance issue with, lots of the different elements of placemaking from safety, which is being. Essentially from the GLA to local authorities, the cleaning. I think there is also going to be these [00:22:00] issues on how you brought up a, a coordinated package in the end through this, levy and how do you make it effective?

Yiannis: And from a next steps perspective, what are the government's next steps into this? And if you had the message for both policy makers and the hotel industry about this, what would that, be?

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, so I think there's, there's probably a couple of things. First thing is what we've heard a lot through the hoteliers is if this has to go ahead, standardize as much as possible. Upfront so that you know so many hotels across the UK are in multiple jurisdictions. They don't want loads of local scenarios that makes their admin burden even heavier. So standardize as much as possible. Secondly, from a governance point of view, in influencing the direction of spend in a locality, recognize the territory that you're in, recognize who already delivers what they deliver and how they deliver it, and make [00:23:00] sure that you. Add value to that rather than either duplicate, overlap, or indeed jeopardize those existing, arrangements.

Dr Julie Grail: If you think about just Westminster city council region has 20 business improvement districts collecting over 25 million pounds a year in bid levy, which is making a significant difference to the management of that space for visitors and others. If you jeopardize the success of bids going forwards, you are, you're taking away, you're not adding, from a local authority point of view, we really recognize that yes, delivery at local authority level for some of this money will be of value, and will be important.

Dr Julie Grail: But, but bids and other partners have got to be at, have a seat at that table to ensure. The right delivery is done and through the right delivery partners, we shouldn't be creating a hold of new layers of delivery when we already have partners in place. That could just end up being really self-defeating and a kind of costly operation to not really add much value.[00:24:00]

Yiannis: No, I agree a hundred percent. I think the underlying message here is. The right people need to be talking in the design of this. They need to be, they need to have a seat at the table, both design and, in order to ensure that the industry doesn't face consequences that could be, threatening for the hospitality industry as a whole.

Yiannis: And, looking beyond, the visitor levy, as we said at the beginning, you are, a legend within the beat industry. What would you say in terms of, the future role of beats, especially in, policy making discussions, and what opportunities do you see?

Dr Julie Grail: Yeah, I mean, I think it's such a, it's a really difficult time for anyone operating in this space actually. bids and others in, in local places because we've got. A huge amount of kind of political instability, both at national and local level that's impacting how things are done day to day, how investment decisions are made, how, of sort of spend [00:25:00] decisions are made. we've also, as I said earlier, we've got the real challenge of the. Severe hike of business rates coming, on 1st of April for some sectors, getting a huge, kind of uplift without significant transitional relief. And that's a big concern for bids and businesses because we already know that whilst footfall in many sectors has almost, and in some cases it has reached. Pre pandemic levels now, so we're kind of seeing the numbers rise. Revenues aren't so, profit is not where it needs to be, and therefore the cost of doing business is considerably higher than it was six, seven years ago. So a lot of what we're doing is dealing with businesses who are in economic survival. Rather than growth. And that puts a real pressure on the way we think and the way we work with them. so I think those are some of the things that we know we are dealing with day to day. I mean it, you know, the flip side is a lot of what we do in bids is about achieving economies of scale. [00:26:00] Really targeting investment into the right, issues at the right time so that we do make a direct difference in places and, and bids have some huge value out of doing that and businesses love the way that they get that kind of reaction.

Dr Julie Grail: I'm part under Business Alliance. I know you are aware of, they're incredibly good at being very, very targeted. In the way they invest their levy money and they make marked difference in their area. So this direct local investment is, can work and is valuable, but you've gotta be hearing what's going on.

Dr Julie Grail: And I feel like this stacking of cost. Something's got to give. We can't see all of these costs continue to be piled onto businesses without economic failure. We've got to be able to see some of that alleviated, whether that be, return of tax-free shopping, whether it be a reduction on that. for hospitality, whether it be adjustment of business rates.

Dr Julie Grail: We've had a good loophole, uh, sorry, a good u-turn on the pubs aspect. We haven't seen [00:27:00] any u-turn on particularly the hotel sector, which is a huge impact. and we, and we are seeing all these additional costs kind of layered on, so bits have got a brilliant part to play in this landscape and they do it very well.

Dr Julie Grail: But they're under economic pressure at the moment 'cause their, their funders are.

Yiannis: I think this has been, my experience on that and, the role of Bits comes. Essentially, they bring the right people together, and this is when good place management, comes. And that's why it's becoming ever more important to have the mother table and, giving them, the ability to talk, to their stakeholders.

Yiannis: and to external extent causes to ensure that, the right investment is happening, at the right areas. I think another interesting, elements of business, the way the voting, the referendums, take place, could you see them becoming an ideal test case for digital voting as are moving into, an era of, let's say redefining the, way voting takes place.

Dr Julie Grail: Oh [00:28:00] God, absolutely. I'm a huge advocate of this and I've been lobbying for it for 15 years. I mean, I think our voting system in bids is utterly antiquated and tiresome. And the fact that we spend 28 days shuffling pieces of paper around and losing. Some in the Royal Mail and everywhere else in between. We've gotta see a better way of being directly connected to our businesses when we invite them to vote again for us, you know, we, we have brilliant levels of engagement with them day to day. We have great kind of, understanding of the businesses at whole load of different levels, and then it gets the. Ballot time, and we have to navigate our way to the one person in that business who might receive that piece of paper and then might, if you're lucky, know what to do with it and return it in the post. So digital voting has gotta be the way forward. I mean, I have to say across, Western City Council has been the most advanced as an authority. Digitalizing [00:29:00] everything it can in terms of voter registration information ahead of a ballot, and then in terms of its billing, so it's modernized as far as it can within the legislation. But yeah, we've gotta go to that next step. It's embarrassing as bids when we go to ballot. We have to behave in this slightly kind of broker role where we say, you're voting for us, but we can't do anything because it's an impartial ballot.

Dr Julie Grail: And we know that we know you and we know that we have dialogue with you every day, but now you have to go through this antiquated system and put across in a, on a piece of paper, you have to find it first, and then you have to return. And yeah, we've gotta be able to modernize that. And, and there is, there is some appetite coming from government now to do that.

Dr Julie Grail: We have been in discussions for some time. I hope that, you know, technology's all there, isn't it? It's perfectly workable. I hope that we get that over the line.

Yiannis: I agree. I think Westminster has been doing a lot of steps forward, in going into this more digital age. And I think, It's [00:30:00] the most natural evolution of, beat voting. I mean, it's something that I've studied since my university days in terms of, how digital voting and direct democracy can actually improve efficiency, at polling and, yeah.

Yiannis: SI think these are very good case study to actually explore, that, at this point, Julie, I really wanna thank you about, this very thoughtful and, timely insights, on the levy and, the bid world as a whole. And if you have any final, remark and concluded remarks, you want to, tell the audience.

Dr Julie Grail: I guess the other, just additional point worth noting is alongside the digital voting appetite that we're seeing in government is also the appetite to revisit property owner bids outside London and standalone property owner bids. I've been working on that right from day dot before the legislation, bear in mind bids legislation only went on to occupiers 'cause there was an easy route to.

Dr Julie Grail: Piggyback onto business rates. All the original pilot work was in was funded by property investors, by the owners, [00:31:00] not the occupiers. There's still a real appetite to see owners invest in their place 'cause they've got the long term stake. And there's a, there's an appetite now in government to see property owner bid legislation hopefully coming through so that it goes beyond London and it can be standalone without an occupy bid.

Dr Julie Grail: I hope we get that. Through too, because that allows, you've got a much greater stake in a place if you are the owner and you are trying to consider long-term change than if you're a short-term occupier.

Yiannis: No, a hundred percent. I think if you think about the concept of fragmented ownership in in different areas, that's when you bring them all together because it's not an issue in an area where there is a single property owner. But when you have multiple property owners, that's when you actually solve this problem of fragmented ownership.

Yiannis: And you can look at 10, 20 50 years ahead, So a hundred percent. I think that should be, one of the next, key, evolutions when it comes to the bit, governance.[00:32:00]

Dr Julie Grail: Absolutely.

Dr Julie Grail: I've enjoyed the conversation and I hope your listeners enjoy it. And I think for, for more information, you know, there's so much out there on bids and there's so much kind of activity going on at local level. it's great to get under the skin of some of the detail that we do, but you know, we are ultimately here to, achieve the businesses. Needs and and desires, and we corral all of their needs into that investment portfolio. And we do this kind of through economies of scale, this influence, investment and spend in places.

Yiannis: Perfect. thank you very much, Julie. Thanks everyone for listening and have a great day.

Dr Julie Grail: Thank you.