Well, hello, hello, guys. You're listening to beauty bites with Dr Kay secrets of a plastic surgeon, and today's podcast is super fascinating. We're gonna talk stem cells. We're gonna talk Muse stem cells. We're talking to the fabulous Dr Adeel Khan, all the way from Dubai. Hey, a deal. Welcome to the private market. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah. So I made a deal at NWC, the anti aging World Congress in Japan, and he gave such an excellent lecture on stem cells and regenerative medicine, and kind of like bringing down the myths and teaching people what all the benefits of new stem cells are. So let's start with a little intro. Can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you got into regenerative medicine? Yeah. I mean the of it is, basically, I was a sports medicine doctor. And, you know, in sports medicine, you're basically treating injuries and pain, and in traditional medicine it's pretty much pain medications, cortisone injections, physiotherapy, and if that doesn't work, then surgery. And so I was kind of, you know, looking for other alternatives. And I came across this doctor named Dr Anthony Gallia, who was a sports doctor in Canada, and he was kind of the pioneer of PRP and, you know, he had treated people like Tiger Woods, like Alex Rodrigue, like all these, you know, well known celebrities and and athletes. So I was like, Well, why are all these people going to him? There must be something going on here. Is it? Kay? Here, because it can't be, it can't just be like, you know, can't not work if there's all these people get talking about it. So there has to be something. So then I just started. So I worked with him, you know, did training, and worked there for like, six years, and mainly doing PRP injections, which was, which was great for like, acute force injuries, like tendon muscle tears, but for chronic degenerative stuff, you know, it could help potentially, but it would, it wouldn't last that long. And then I eventually got exposed to stem cells, because I got recruited to be part of a Health Canada approved clinical trial. And that's how I got my research. I guess work is what led to me to go down the whole stem cell rabbit hole, and then I just discovered this whole world where I was just like, wow, there's a lot of potential here in cell therapy. And it's really about, you know, this next generation cell therapy. And so that's kind of what led me to everything, and it all fundamentally came from a desire to want to help my patients, because it's frustrating when you can't solve people's problems and they're coming, and I don't, I'm not one of those doctors who like to just say, oh, sorry, there's nothing I can do. I mean, obviously sometimes there is there. You just there are, sometimes there's nothing you can do, but a lot of times there is something you can there's other things out there that you can look into. So I've always been very curious and driven that way, and that's what led me to kind of pioneer, I guess, a lot of different regenerative medicine treatments. I love it. So, yes, you're Canadian, you're board certified. Is your board certification? Sports Medicine? Yeah, yeah. So you do general medicine, like GP, and then, and then it is sports medicine training fellowship, yeah. And then somehow you ended up all the way in Dubai, and you have launched this amazing your founder and CEO of eternal health, which is kind of a regenerative medicine focus on longevity clinic network. So I mean, I think we're now talking bioregenerative therapies, and I see such an explosion of longevity clinics. What do you think we have to be careful about participation, and also, even as a physician, when we see so many people dabbling in, you know, new things and all those sort of peptides themselves, things, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of like the wild wild west. And the reality is that it's, if you're regular consumer, it's really hard to discern from what's, you know, somewhat evidence based, or somewhat based in good science, versus what's just marketing. And it's, it's even difficult for physicians sometimes to know the difference. So it's hard, it's gonna be really hard for the consumer. So I think the biggest, the biggest thing I can suggest when it at least when it comes to stem cells and regenerative medicine, I think a lot of it is still basic science work that's happening too. And so you have to, I think it's you want to ideally go to a practitioner who's also doing some research, because then they're actively involved, and I have an idea of what's going on the academic side. And then they also are doing commercial work, which is fine, but I think someone who's just doing purely commercial it's probably not going to be the best you know, in terms of, like, providing you with a comprehensive overview of, like, the real risk and benefits and what actually works and what doesn't. Because there's so much marketing in this space, right, especially in longevity and in Dubai, it's actually like, like, every other clinic is a longevity clinic here. Like. So like 10x what we have in the US. It's just starting to explode in the US. And then I think there's so much mythology surrounding stem cells, and people don't understand the legalities. Maybe, do you know anything about the laws and rules in the US? And what is it? There are very few states and locations where you can actually get stem cells injected, yeah? Well, the first Yeah, I always have to give a little bit of a history lesson, so bear with me. But you know, Dr Arnold Kaplan in 1992 he's a professor who coined the term mesenchymal stem cells, and he had coined this because he thought they were stem cells, meaning that they have the ability to turn into different cell lineages, that they're able to actually generate new tissue. But then he realized that these are not real stem cells. There were called stromal cells or signaling molecules, meaning they can provide the supporting structure to signal to your own body to start healing and regenerating, but they have themselves, are not going to turn to new tissue. And so he wrote a paper in 2017 saying we need to rename it to medicinal signaling cells, or MSCs. And that's work, unfortunately, just never became, I guess, widespread among the physician community. And so a lot of people are still offering stem cell clinics, but they're all using these MSCs. And that's that's unfortunate misnomer, because you're not really getting regenerative cells, you're getting more anti inflammatory signals, which doesn't mean it can't be helpful in certain contexts, but it's just misleading to the consumer, because the consumer comes in thinking they're getting regeneration, they're getting rejuvenation, and really they're just getting an anti inflammatory effect, which may be equally achievable with like, something like exosomes, without some of the risk of stem cells, you know? So I think that's, that's that was a problem that happened, and that kind of led regenerative medicine down the wrong road, because then you had all this commercial and business and offshore clinics and people just really giving stem cells as a hype and hope for any condition. And so the US, very fair enough, like the FDA just basically said, Nope, we're going to regulate this like a drug, meaning it has to go through phase one, two and three trials, and that, you know, can cost $100 million and so therefore stem cells were basically banned in the US. And because there's no there hasn't been that type of clinical, robust clinical data that's been done yet for, you know, for MSCs in general, but there have now, there are, you know, trials are wrapping up in that kind of space so, but the point is that the FDA, basically, the way they went about it, made it very challenging for stem cells to be used in the US. But that change this, literally, that changed six months ago in July, Florida and Utah and Montana are the three states I know of, and there's, I'm sure there'll be more that follow. Have essentially said that the stem cells can be used for orthopedic injuries, wound healing and pain management. And you know, that's a really broad scope, so you can use it for a lot of things, obviously, in that context, so and that, and that's despite FDA has not approved stem cells, right? But, or, like, you know, these mesmo stem cells, but the law allows you to now provide these treatments, as long as you get the proper consent. And I, you know the, I guess the thing you mentioned earlier about the mu cells, because I'm sure people are getting curious. What you know is that the mu cells are a subpopulation of the mesenchymal stem cells. So those mesenchymal stem cells, when you take them, you isolate them, let's say, from bone marrow, or from fat or umbilical cortician, wherever you get them, they have one to 2% of these mu cells. And it turns out these mu cells are actually likely the reason for the benefit of these MSCs in the first place. And so instead of having one to 2% you can isolate it and standardize it and have up to like now, like 90 95% purity of mu cells. And the reason that's so important because the mu cells are actually regenerative. They're what's called pluripotent, meaning they can turn into different cell lines. And there's been over 200 papers in Japan on new cells, because it was discovered in Japan. And so they have a pretty robust preclinical data, and then clinical trials in humans as well that have been done. So I think there's, at least, you know, for I think there's enough safety data to say that this is a safe therapy, and then we have to study it more to figure out exactly what it can and what it you know where it was going to be efficacious, and that's kind of the work that's happening now. Yeah, that's a perfect question that was going to lead into this issue of stem cells. When you say so truly fluorescent in a clinical context, how do you sort of verify its potency and safety. Are there assays or biomarkers or criteria actually is appropriate? Yeah, there's actually a there's actually a cell surface marker called SSE three, which basically is only expressed by pluripotent stem cells in from Ms. And so that's the marker that they use. So for example, if you get, like, a COA, a certificate of analysis, it'll say SS, EA, three, like 90% that means 90% of the cells are pluripotent, Muse like cells, and, you know, mu cells, basically it stands for, it's a long act, but it's basically multi lineage differentiating, stress enduring cells. So it's, it's a good name, but it's just, obviously, it's, it's a mouthful, but it essentially denotes the fact that these cells can turn into different all you know, tried lineage, differentiation capacity, meaning you can turn into pretty much any cell in your body and your stress enduring which means they can survive in the body better than other types of stem cells, like traditional MSCs, which, for the most part don't, 90% or so will die. So this just gives a better efficacy. For that reason, you're looking for that potency and efficacy in that surface cell marker, yeah, and that's why it's important. It's important because there are other new cell. I mean, I was the first one to really talk about new cells outside Japan, and really bring it, I think, you know, to the forefront. But now there's because of that, there's a lot of clinics offering new cells, but they're, but, you know, they're not, they're sometimes they're not really good quality news. Like, they might be 20% you know what I mean? Like, they'll be like, Oh yeah, we use new cells, but it's like, the purity isn't there, and it can be misleading to people too. So I get you have to be careful. These new cells are very early stage differentiated cells, and the sources or cell culture or they're not autologous. Right now, do we have the technology to make your own? You can get them from, autologous from you can get them from, like, for example, from like, for example, from your own fat or bone marrow, but the the new cells express something called HLA G antigen, which basically makes them immuno privileged, so your body will not reject it, or have, say, form any sort of significant immune response. And because of that, you can use allogeneic, which means from donors. And the donors that are the, let's say freshest are umbilical cord tissue, because perinatal tissue they have, you know, least DNA damage. But you can also get it from young healthy donors, from fat as an option too. And essentially you're collecting it from that from that product. So usually umbilical cord tissue or fat or bone marrow from healthy young donors. Yeah, interesting. Or you get it from a cell culture center that's kind of focused on growing up and developing these cell lines and safety, safely screening them, but that's hard to find too, yeah, yeah. And that's why, working with the that's always been the biggest issue, I would say, with stem cells in general, is the manufacturer causes more of the issues. And I mean, sometimes it's the doctors, because they're trying to do crazy things, but it's that the manufacturer, if they don't do proper sterility testing, and, you know, infectious diseases and the donor selection isn't done properly, like the there's a lot of nuances to making these cells and being able to have the right kind of chain of custody as well, in terms of delivering them and everything that has to be done. And that's why I personally, you know, I work, I work with this company called Musa innovations, which is, you know, that's Professor durai's company, essentially, and that's the one that owns the they have their own dazawa Musa trademark. I get, you know, but essentially, because that's a clinically validated one, and that's the one that has been obviously, it was discovered by her. But there are other companies making new cells, but they do, you know, I think they have a really high standard in terms of their manufacturing quality. When you are coming up with protocols in the intern clinic, you have some current interesting clinical trials that you're running using these new cells, or real world evidence you guys are generating? Yeah, well, we've published some real world evidence, and recently with using infusion of new cells for reversal of biological aging, as measured by biological noise, which is a fairly accurate epigenetic clock. And it's not, it's not the number that's as important, you know, like, if you're 50 years old and your biological age is like 55 that number isn't as important as what's called, like the done and pay score or the grim score, like, which is the rate at which your body's aging. And even these infusions can slow down the rate at which your body ages, but that eventually does wear off after like, you know, nine ish months or so, depending on the person. So it is something you have to do once or twice a year if you want to get the continual benefits. And so that's, that's something that's really interesting. And then, of course, there's an orthopedic applications. We're working on publishing some case series that we've done with, you know, now we've, I mean, we've done hundreds of people now, but you know, we're working on publishing some of that work so we can show, at least in a real world, what's the efficacy like. And in Dubai, we're working with the UK, because one of the orthopedic doctors I have here, he is very well connected in the academic world and UK, and so he's going to help us to set up a registry, which. Will be, which is, I think what should have been happened, that was a problem with stem cells in general, like, that's what should have happened in the first place. I feel like if there was a registry, we could have had, we could have had 1000s or even millions of data points, because of all the stem cell clinics around the world and stuff like that. But it's just like there was never a registry. And so we're gonna, we're gonna try to do that with the new cells. So at least, if there's a there's a registry where people who are using this product, of course, that's what we're going to etern as planning to do with with the UK kind of registry. And then we can obviously publish that too. And then, and then there are some controlled trials that are starting, like, I know the muc company, because I work fairly closely with them. They, they, they are in the process of doing IRBs and clinical trials for stroke, I believe they're doing a phase two or phase three now and then also they're gonna they're doing one for TBI, like traumatic brain injuries. They're doing one for Neo a, like a phase one for Neo a, with the new cell. So yeah. So then, then you'll have some control data too, obviously, which is obviously important. Oh, osteoarthritis. Oh, yeah, sorry. How are you kind of defining and measuring biologic age in patients right now? Are you doing specific biologic age markers. So the combination of proteomics and epigenetic clocks and epigenetic clocks, I mean, there's so many of them out there, but I do like this one company called Generation lab, because they use something called biological noise, which is almost like, almost kind of like, how many mistakes, how many mistakes your genes make over time, you know? And it's a very scary because I did that generation lab test on myself, and mild, a mild freak out when I opened it, and if I was aging excessively quickly, like, oh my god, welcome to combo, or Florida, or whatever. Yeah, we'll reverse here. Happy to do that. And then we call You can see the before and after. It's pretty amazing. One infusion, how much reversal you'll get in organ systems, yeah. So interesting. So you're tracking kind of DNA methylation changes exactly, but then, but then DNA. The thing with DNA methylation is it doesn't give you, it gives you, obviously, a, you know, a history and a time, sort of speed in terms of what's going on with your genes, but it doesn't give you like real, like snapshot of what's happening exactly right now. That's where proteomics come in. Proteomics is the actual proteins, which is the end product of gene expression, and that can give you a very accurate gage of what's going on in terms of aging and then also systemic dysfunction. Like when you map out all these proteins, sometimes you can even sometimes you can even figure out things that are that aren't picked up on traditional blood tests. Like I've had patients who had immune dysfunction, but, you know, CRP, and all the blood markers and all that stuff came back normal, but then the proteomics test showed certain proteins that are linked to immune dysregulation coming back as abnormal. And then then you have a diagnose, a clear diagnosis, you know. So, so I think diagnostically, proteomics is also very interesting. The problem, the challenge with proteomics, historically, was it's just too expensive, because they had to use, like, mass spec and all these other things. And it was like, it was like, 10s of 1000s of dollars and and then, even right now, as of today, if you wanted to get proteomics, there's a company called Soma scan, and it's charges about $5,000 which is still, you know, most people are going to pay that much for a diagnostic test. But there is a company called Sedona health that is failing an AI platform, and essentially is going to offer proteomics at $500 so that just shows you the tech. And, you know, living in the this is a cool the world we live in right now, there's so much innovation happening, and so something that was previously inaccessible and really unaffordable will now become affordable. So I think proteomics plus epigenetic clocks, such as Gen lab, is going to be the gold standard for quantifying the aging process, at least for the at least for the next couple years. I mean, something better might come along, but I think that's going to be what we'll be using personally. And I think if you talk to an aging scientist on it too, I think based off the literature and everything I've read, combining proteomics with epigenetic clocks is kind of the best way to gage what's going on. What protein markers are you looking for if you're looking at proteomics, or is it just kind of the global it's like, yeah, exactly. It's a global panel, yeah. And then they can simply, they have a dashboard where they can display it, simply, for the patient, but then for the clinician. I mean, you can look at all like, I think they do. I think this company is a donor. Health is, like, I don't know, 1500 or something, so almost scan, I think there's like, 10,000 but, you know, I don't think any clinicians, they look at 10,000 protein markers, right? That's where records, right? That's where AI obviously will come in, I think, and be helpful to distill that information. Yeah, so interesting. Cell based therapies carry some inherent risks, and I think people should be aware of, you know, screening carefully with whatever it's. Are going to use on themselves. So how do you mitigate differentiation or tumor tumorigenesis, potential to turn on oncogenes or pre cancers or immune reactions? How do you kind of monitor so if you look at my podcast, I did like, I don't know. Six years ago, I used to say stem cells are dangerous. They've caused blindness, they can cause tumors. And the reason for that was because a lot of these clinics are using the and I've realized now is because a lot of the clinics weren't using the right type of stem cells. And that's the issue, if you're using, for example, embryonic stem cells, which can be from aborted fetuses, which some clinics offer, they have the risk of tumors or uncontrolled growth. And so you really, that's where, to me, it's always about safety is number one. And you know, the new cells coming back to the other reason we use them is because they're non tumorigenic, you know, by definition, in terms of their gene expression profile. But then also there's data, you know, preclinical data, and nice studies showing that the that the mu cells actually have anti cancerous properties. So if these come into contact with the cancer cell, they actually help them to trigger cell apoptosis, which is really interesting. So I think that's to me, as you know, gives me a higher level of comfort with that. And then, so I think, you know, as of now, it's really hard to recommend any other cell besides the new cell, in my opinion, because the MSCs, you know, they're not bad, but they're not that effective, like they're safe, relatively safe. And then embryonic stem cells have the risk of tumors. And IPSC, which is induced, plops, also have the risk of tumors. And so you don't really have anything else that fits all the criteria of like, new cells. Do they check it kind of has all the check boxes. Yeah. I think when people are getting infusions of stem cells in places like Utah, Montana, wherever they're going, I don't think that they understand those parameters, and they're just kind of thinking like stem cells are great. And you say stem cell, and you think, high tech, amazing, curative problem like stem cells, exactly. Stem cells are there. They're a category. And so you have to categorize and then have specific products in that category to educate people like that stem cells doesn't mean anything. You have to be like, Okay, what's the actual product, and what's it being used for? And then, yeah, you know, like the clinics, you're talking about, 99% of those stem cells get trapped in the lungs because they're too big, and that's just that's been shown in animal models. And so most of them aren't even going to circulate and do anything. And then, like, 90% 90 5% are gonna die, as has also been shown. So it's like, I don't really know what you're getting when you're doing those infusions, like you're maybe getting a little bit of an anti inflammatory effect, and then when you might even get more inflammation over time, because you have a lot of dead cells in your body. So I think, I think that's where the risk comes in and and also that's where data has been, like, you're probably getting exosomes, right? You're probably getting exactly, that's the benefit. I think that's, that's what I that's what I think the benefit is likely coming from. It's just the exosomes, which is the for people, that's like the soup that the stem cells can kind of release, and the signals, you know, sort of the whole secret tome of all the juices that these cells screen, and some of them are crushed and damaged and broken particles of exosomes. So I think you're getting that diffusion, like that whole beneficial aspect, without getting what a true stem cell can do, yeah. Are you personally using the new stem cell? Actually, 85 years old, exactly, exactly. I'm still relatively young, but once I hopefully, hopefully, I'll look like this for the next 30 years. But it's the idea, but it's definitely been, I mean, that was one of the things, you know, I think that appealed to some of the celebrities I've worked with. They they looked at because, I mean, people judge you. I mean, you know, when you're in this industry, a little bit like they they look at you, and if you look old, and they're going to be they're not going to maybe believe you as much. And so I feel like the fact that I do look relatively young, and I feel like new cells have played a big role, not just looking at my if you look if somebody, and this wasn't, this was actually patients who told me this, because I didn't, I don't pay that paid. I don't pay that much attention to it. But I had a few patients tell me, like, are patients who I've been, you know, who've been with me, you know, for five plus years. And they they were like, You look younger now than you did, like, three years ago or four years ago, you know. So it's pretty cool to hear that. So then they're like, whatever you're doing is working. And I'm like, Oh, cool. Thanks. That's good to know. Yeah, that is good to know. I guess you do see a lot of celebrities. You saw Kim Kay and the whole Kardashian gang, and when you're seeing celebrities, are they signing like crazy consent form, like, I release you from all liability, because the science is so fresh, and there are no clinical stuff published, and there's not a lot of data, but we have a lot of great insights into, hopefully, the benefit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The consent forms are pretty rigorously done. You know, the thing is, you know, like the word experiment, I it's also like the word experimental, you know, obviously is denotes the fact a lot of people think that means it's not safe. It doesn't necessarily mean it's not safe. It just means it hasn't gone through that FDA regulatory process, which is really strict and and it also doesn't necessarily mean it's not effective. And so for example, I like to use an example of, like, meniscus surgery, sort of degenerative meniscus tears, like that's not really effective at all. And there's so much research on that, but that is approved by FDA, and it's something that they people still do today, even though there's lack of there's a lack of evidence, and so it, I think the paradigm shift that needs to happen and starting to happen now is what Japan had done. And Japan created a special regulatory framework for Regenerative Medicine, where they said, if you can show that this is safe, then we will allow you to offer it in the clinics. And we just said, do post market surveillance for like, an X amount of years to monitor for efficacy and any adverse effects. And so I think that's, I think that, to me, is a lot more reasonable, and which is what Florida essentially is doing now in a lot of you know these states, and I think that that, to me, makes sense. It's like you've have established safety, and now you have to prove efficacy, which is going to take a long time, obviously, but I you know a lot of people, as long as they feel like it's safe, they're willing to try these more cutting edge treatments. I think you're right that the regulatory philosophy of the FDA is really holding back what we could be doing in longevity and regenerative research right now in the US, and it's so true that the companies needing to push a product to $100 million of spending to go through all the clinical trials is it's insane, like we're really going to slow down progression of having actual clinical use products that you know come into Practice, yeah, and that's why I think, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, medical tourism will keep growing, because there's the right way to do medical tourism, I guess, and not, and then a lot not the right way, you know what I mean. So I think there's a lot of risk for people too, when they go outside the country and stuff. So they you just have to be careful where you're going, yeah. How do you even vet that process? You know, they have to be if, like, I come back to that principle, and maybe I'm biased, because I do research, but I think you do research as well. And, like, actually, that's one of the things with you and me bonded over, I think, and it's, I think, if the if the clinic you're looking for, even if it's overseas and they're not doing any sort of active research, you know, just be wary. Because, like, that's probably just means they're just very much commercial driven. And, yeah, yeah, buyer beware. Because, like, people are spending 20 grand, 50 grand, 100 grand, on these infusions. And literally, they don't ask the simple basic questions like, what's the source of the stem cells, and what is this process, and how is it vetted? What's the potency? How do I know the purity? Like some simple, basic questions I think will go a long way. What clinical projects are you guys working on in your clinic right now? Do you have one or two research projects that you can mention that you're we're working on publishing. The one that I think is going to be really impactful is autoimmune conditions. We've had several patients with ulcerative colitis, with lupus, with rheumatoid arthritis, going to remission with the infusion of the new cells. And it's just really and then we measure and then we do the Gen lab testing, and you can see a significant reversal of their immune system aging. So it's almost like pressing the reset button on the immune system. And there was, then, there was some research published this year too, you know, showing that conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis may just be an accelerated immune aging phenotype, so meaning that their immune system is aging faster than it should be, and which is basically means when things age faster than they should, that just means dysfunction, right? And they make and things just don't work the way they should work. And so your body starts going a bit haywire. So if we can reset that and bring it back to the way it was before, that's a very promising, I think, strategy. And so that's one of the things where I'm excited about in terms of, you know, publishing, I guess, and I think that will be pretty impactful. And then, and then, yeah, the other one, I guess that's also, it's not me directly, but it's working with a collaborator. I don't know if you know, Dr Sabine Hazen is in, she's, actually, she's, she's a gastroenterologist, and in LA or LA or Santa Monica, somewhere in California. And so she, she basically is kind of, I would say, a leader in terms of establishing stool banking and also FMT fecal microbial transplant. And really, you know, because the gut, it seems like the gut is the secret to so many things, including, I think longevity too. I think it plays a huge role. And I, and one of the theories I have is that these infusion of new cells, they help to repair the gut lining, which creates a better microbiome. And so we're going to do a research project together to verify that, because she has the most well established bank in terms of, like, what is a normal microbiome based on which ethnicity and things like that. So we can because, for example, she published data showing that the covid vaccine and the covid virus can deplete your body of Bifido bacteria. So she started this campaign called Save the Biff. And, you know, so it's basically, it's basically, you know, hinting at the fact that when you lose these microbes that are now missing from a microbiome, it can be very deleterious to our health. So if we can create an environment that's more favorable for them, these bugs to return or or sometimes you have to actually transplant new bugs, you know. And that's what she does as well. So I think the combination of our work is going to be really interesting. And so that's something I'm, you know, excited to work on. Yeah, that sounds interesting. It's a it's the gut brain axis and the whole neuropsychiatric changes that can happen depending on your microbiome. Super fascinating. And now a lot of studies are showing even like cancer connections that your microbiome in you know, impact colon cancer development or endometriosis are definitely inflammatory bowel Well, these are two stats that I think can really emphasize how important the gut is for everything in your body. 70% of your immune system is affected by your gut, so seven zero. So that's more than that's a majority. And then 80% of what's circulating in your blood is a byproduct or affected by your gut. So 80 so that just, you know, so everything is intricately or intimately linked to the gut health. And it's not just a bad I guess, or whatever. I think that it is actually real science. And if science is just becoming clearer and clearer, we just don't know yet what the perfect microbiome formulation is, you know, but that's, that's what these that's what all these scientists are figuring out, and eventually we will know, yeah, I think it's so interesting. I am so curious, how do we track actual regenerative change in the body, versus anti inflammatory effect that everything we are feeling better. We are improving the local, systemic, you know, inflammatory markers. But how can we track that we're actually having regenerative change? Are you thinking it's mainly epigenetic testing that shows less DNA methylation changes? Yeah. I mean, I think the testing is important, like the proteomics and the epigenetic clots, but then also functional testing can be, you know, potentially get, you know, if you're like a lot of people's recovery improves in the gym. And if you can, you can measure your potential, your VO two Max, or your grip strength, or, you know, other and then you can see that functionally, Hey, I've also improved, and we hear that all the time from our patients, and so that's obviously an indicator to me that this is having real regeneration and not just an anti inflammatory effect. Yeah, it's just sometimes you think that there's no really large scale randomized clinical trials, and so much of what we do for ourselves is placebo effect. Like, if I take I feel healthier this week, even though I'm probably bidding at the same rate. And then I look at products like urelitha Na, which is a great supplement for mitochondrial health. And I was reading research about how, oh my god, it improves performance metrics in old people and everyone should be on urelitha na. And then, like, the measures showed that older patients could walk like point three meters more or faster than people who hadn't been on your life in a than a minute. That's like a foot. Exactly. What is that? What is that really? Exactly? Yeah, yeah. Exactly like if I don't think your lit a or any supplement for that matter, would reverse aging in multiple organ systems, as these cell therapies can, and that's, that's really where the separation lies. I kind of have a saying that I'm working on coining. It's longevity one point longevity. 1.0 is essentially focusing on pathways like amp, Kay, mTOR, sirtuins, you know, things like that, which is like, you know, David Sinclair, and what, what everything he talked about. And then longevity 2.0 is the systems biology approach, which is, how do we make the whole system work better as a whole? And that's where regenerative medicine shines, and that's where Gene therapy and also subtractive medicine, which is, you know, removing microplastics and heavy metals and things from your body. They allow your whole system to work better. So and then gene therapy is like a system upgrade. So that's that's kind of the way longevity 2.0 is all about. And I think that's where we're at now, and it's only going to get more exciting with epigenetic reprogramming and all sorts of other technologies. What are top. Things that you think are really scammy in the longevity space, that you haven't bought into buzz, but you think it's a scam well, IV NAD bothers me not, not because it's, you know, not because it can't be. It's, I'm not saying it's not effective at all. I'm just saying there's a percentage of the population that it can be helpful for but for most people, unless you know your genetics and you know your methylation and, like, how you know your body kind of in terms of that whole pathway, then it's, it's a lot of people, NAD, doesn't do anything, and it's just, and it's also a large molecule, so it's questionable how much actually goes intracellular. And so I just don't know if the infusions are actually doing much. I think there's potential, more potential with something like even, you know, true nitrogen, which is a supplement that can help your own body to produce more NAD like I'd I'd rather you do that than do the IV NADs personally. I mean, I think just based off what my understanding and what I've read, so that's one of the ones that bothers me, because it's so popular, and everyone seems like everyone recommends it, but it's just not, I don't think it's great science so that. And then I guess, I mean, of course, even though I'm in this field, like it's in these and, I mean, we talked about it already, but the infusion of these mesenchymal stem cells, like, that's it's very misleading. And even, like, I'm not perfect, like everyone, like even I had thought at one point that these infusions could be very helpful, but then, as I read into it, I realized it's just not true, you know. And so I think that's very misleading to people. People don't know that, that the stem cells are getting trapped their lungs, and they're not actually surviving, and they're not migrating, and all these things. So all these stem cell clinics are taking advantage of patients, and it's happening all over the world, you know, in Asia, Europe, everywhere. So so we really have to raise awareness on the you know what a proper stem cell is, and what you're getting right now is not a proper stem cell for the most part, so, but that's no, you know, slowly change, and I guess the other one in longevity. I mean, I think with cosmetics, I mean, I think there can be a lot of gimmicky kind of things like that. Don't actually have, you know, great data, or actually are good for your skin health long term. So I'm just thinking of some of the you know, you probably know better than I do, but there's, probably, there's, I can't think of the names of some of the machines, yeah, exactly, beginning with all of the different exosomes out there and all the different claims they make and how they're not really scientifically categorized. I think that's a huge one. And everything sounds scientific and exotic and fancy, but like, Data Wise and, yeah, that's a that's a true gray area as well. Like, there's so much biologics coming into what we do, and there's not a lot of regulation. So I think that that's, for me, the big, the big gray area, and the problem that we only have patients trust for a short amount of time. As soon as they really are selling things that are just hype and marketing claim, then we lose their trust. So, so, you know, are there three things, two or three things that you think are super beneficial, that you would never give up and you tell everybody to go do it, besides muse? Still stem cells? Well, new cells are just, you know, they're not accessible to most people as of yet, but there are things that you can do that, you know, I mean, if there's this device, it's gonna sound kind of Hocus Pocus, but it's real, like, they do have clinical studies on it, and they publish it recently. It's called a bio photon Tesla device. And you basically put these little like, they're literally like little rectangles, and you just put them around your bed and that you sleep with it. And they've shown that it can help to increase your own body circulating stem cells like significantly, which is, and it works on your mitochondria as well and repairs that. And it just that's such an easy thing. And there's literally, you don't have to do anything. You just sleep with it. You just put it around your bed. So I feel like that's something that I need to write this down. It's cool. Yeah, take it out. It's called Tesla bio healing. And it's, it's a, it's, it's by this PhD, MD, Dr Yuan or something. I think his name is. And then he basically is, you know, obsessed with light therapy and quantum biology, and he's the one who came up with these devices. Oh my gosh, I'm totally obsessed, too. I'm learning so much more light than might have effects from mitochondria, how we're basically like photosynthesizing with our mitochondria exactly so our bodies and so on that note, like I, you know, I think one of the simplest things that people can do is getting the right light therapy. In their lives, meaning, you know, exposing those exposing themselves to the sun and first thing in the morning, and then also having some sort of infrared light therapy, I think practice on a daily basis probably a good idea, too. And so I think that's a simple thing that almost anyone can do. And then, of course, when it comes to, I mean, when it comes to longevity, I think that, of course, the foundational thing is muscle, right? Because, you know, muscle is the organ of longevity, as my friend Gabriel line says, and it's essentially not just a esthetic thing that's sending signals throughout your body and changing gene expression and protecting your body and making it more resilient. But the issue is, and this, this is more just, I think you'd find this interesting, is that after age 70, your neuromuscular junctions start to wear out, so the wiring starts to disappear. And so no matter how much you work out, after age 70, you start losing a significant amount muscle for that reason. So if we can rejuvenate the neuromuscular junction, that's gonna be one of the best ways, I think, one of the really cool, futuristic targeted therapies that will extend lifespan. And there, I know there's companies working on that. As we speak, so many companies are kind of like just thriving and beginning with these crazy new regenerative ideas. It'll be interesting to see which companies really pan out. It's just like aI every day. There's three or four different new AI apps, and I'm just like overwhelmed with the amount and quantity that are blossoming, but I see the same thing in the bioregenerative space that so many companies are launching with these cool ideas. Have you guys incorporated any really new things like Clotho or phalostatin injections or things like that. Yeah, there's a, there's a company called triple helix, which is has the viral gene therapies like AAV vectors, and, you know, they're obviously, this is definitely in more than experimental realm, because, you know, it's only been done for a few 100 people, probably, but it's, it's something that has, you know, a lot of potential, I would say, Follow statin There's many people who put on a lot of muscle and, like, by a lot, I mean, like, you know, two kg, or I've had, some cases, four or five kg, which is pretty which is very significant for someone who's training naturally, especially so and and for females, obviously, It can potentially help to increase bone density. So there bone density. So there's a lot of interesting things with follistat and gene therapy and and then Clotho as well, is is now available, and there are people who are interested in doing it. I'm actually going to be doing it on myself. I'm very excited for it, because I'm excited, I'm excited to try Clotho and see if it helps, you know, cognitively and things like that. And obviously, he's done some, he's published some research showing Clotho to be able to help with like Alzheimer's and neurodegenerative conditions. Because for those who don't know, like, coltha was a peptide, you know that that if, if you have more of that circulating peptide in your body, it can protect you from Alzheimer's, even if you have the April e4 gene, they've done population based data studies on that. Wow. So next time I see your brains can be even bigger, my brain needs all the help I can get. So yes, hopefully. Well, this has been so interesting. I'm so excited to hopefully do some science and research projects with you coming up in the future? Yes, yeah, exactly, for sure. Great Ones. Where can people find you if they want to learn more, they're visiting Dubai and they want to get younger? Yeah, I'm currently living in Dubai, but we have clinics in Florida that are opening, and we have one in Cabo, and we actually have one in Toronto too, but that's, you know, Toronto and Canada. You can't really do much besides just PRP, but we so Easiest way is Instagram. I'm pretty active on there at Dr dot, a con Kayn, and then our websites, eternal, dot, health like eternal without a L and you can, if you're interested, you can just check it out. And we have lots of information. And I try to a lot of my content that I make is just to educate people and then just help people make informed decisions. You know, I love it. I love a really scientific, focused discussion. And what you're doing in bioregenerative therapy is incredible. I'm I learned about Marie's justice. I was stem cells, the mused cells, and I was so fascinated, and it was such a great coincidence, and to run into you who's actually like using them in the clinical setting. Sometimes things never come out of the lab, and it's great to actually implement it and actually being used and being taught more about so so thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and for everyone listening, if you enjoyed this podcast, share it with a friend. Leave the review and definitely follow along for more evidence based discussions on longevity, esthetics, regenerative medicine, this is sort of what I'm passionate about. I want to invite all of you guys along on the journey of learning more about how we can anti age and take advantage of the body, the body's own bio regenerative. Healing properties. There's so much science coming through. I think this year, next year, the next five years, it's going to be explosion of what we understand in human aging. That's it for now. Guys, don't forget to find me on my instagram. It's Beauty by Dr Kay, and our website is the same Beauty by Doctor kay.com that's you can find our amazing new skin care longevity line with peptides and NAD precursors, mitochondrial boosters, all of the things your skin is thriving with. That's it for now. Guys, stay beautiful. You Hey.