speaker-0 (00:13.058)
Hey y'all, you're tuned into Assigned Sex, Unarchived. I'm your non-binary cousin, Shawn Dawson, and this is a safe space where we're honest about what it means to show up as Black, trans, and genderqueer. Today I'm sitting down with Chris, a non-binary barber and a techie I've known for a minute. We're talking about battling the binary at work, how family and church shaped our ideas of gender, and what it's like to grow out of labels like stud, while still wanting to be fine, fly, and free.

Let's get into it.

I've been seeing a lot of conversations happening on the social medias and the binary is knocking niggas between the washer and the dryer. First we'll start, what pronouns do you use?

speaker-1 (00:55.32)
for sure.

speaker-1 (01:00.246)
I use they, them, or I more so prefer my name, just Chris. Certain environments, I have to change that up. you know, but when I'm around a safe space, it's they, them, or Chris.

speaker-0 (01:15.052)
When you're not in a safe space, what is it and why?

speaker-1 (01:18.69)
I'll use she and her pronouns only because it makes it easier. Based off of where I work, I work in a, I like to call it a queer straight space because it's very queer looking at it, but being in the space and talking to the people, it's very straight and binary coded.

Nobody uses any other pronouns, although the majority of the clientele we work with are non-binary, trans, queer, like nobody really fits what you would... Nobody fits a certain type, but coming into the shop, if you look like a woman, they're going to call you she, her. If you look like a man, they're going to call you he, him. There's no space for anything else in there.

speaker-0 (02:05.942)
What do you think will happen if you like correct someone? Like if they said she and then you said no, it's they.

speaker-1 (02:11.214)
You know, I don't think it would be anything with the clients because they, you know, they all are on the same thing with me. Even when I got my top surgery, my clients were the ones that helped me find a doctor. So I don't think it would be anything with them. It would more so be the owner because that's her thing. She just uses she and him. And I've heard her clients tell her like, hey, I use these pronouns and she trips up and she's like, oh, I forgot or something of that nature. you know, I just think

it's not her thing and just different age brackets is what I'm going to attribute it to. Like 45 or 46, something around that area. young enough to know but still in that age.

speaker-0 (02:47.19)
How old is she?

speaker-0 (02:57.928)
Yeah, because that barbershop, I feel like it's a lot of the they/thems up in there.

speaker-1 (03:04.916)
Actually, I think it's only me. It's only me, because most of them are she, her, and bisexual.

speaker-0 (03:13.902)
I'm asking this because I was watching something recently and it was a couple of I need to be politically correct and not say nothing wild. Say Dykes, but I won't say that.

speaker-1 (03:16.014)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (03:28.204)
Right.

speaker-1 (03:32.643)
That's what I call myself.

speaker-0 (03:34.03)
I call myself a dyke too, but some people get really offended by the word dyke. But it was a couple of aggressive lesbians and they were talking about people that use like they/them and they were like, they were going really hard on like trans men, which I always think is super weird.

speaker-1 (04:00.962)
I do too because honestly brother, we're cousins. So why are you acting like this? Like what? We're all in the same family tree, knock it off.

speaker-0 (04:04.888)
Why?

speaker-0 (04:10.412)
No, they said they said they different because they don't want to be a man.

speaker-1 (04:15.712)
It's such a long conversation. I used to see it so often on Twitter with them saying that if you're a dyke, you want to be a man and only studs are pretty, pretty boy, tomboy. And I'm just like.

Y'all have no idea what you're talking about. You're just projecting and it seems that you don't know the difference between a trans man and, you know, lesbians or masc presenting people in general. It's just so layered and they don't care to learn. It's the kids, it's the children.

speaker-0 (04:44.078)
Does your family use your pronouns or they just call you Chris? I met your family. They seem pretty cool.

speaker-1 (04:49.408)
Yeah, everybody just calls me Chris. Nobody really uses anything. My stepmom's a bit tricky sometimes, but for the most part, she understands because I have a younger sibling. You met my younger sibling, MJ, and they are non-binary as well. So my stepmom's learning. She's learned a lot more compared to when I first was coming out as queer as a teenager compared to now with my younger sibling.

speaker-0 (05:16.812)
It's dope that she's even willing to try.

speaker-1 (05:18.822)
Mm-hmm. She's come a long way because lord knows she was asking me when I was bringing a husband home for a long time And it was honey I am the husband so sorry to disappoint

speaker-0 (05:31.98)
Yeah, well, my family, I mean, I use she and they. Lately, I've been leaning more towards she. I mean, only with my family, Like, it doesn't really bother me, the she or like they.

speaker-1 (05:46.926)
Just don't call me a man. Don't call me a man.

speaker-0 (05:49.326)
What? Just don't call me a man. Just don't want to be anything but he, please. So a couple of nights ago, Nandi, like I've been doing gardening a lot, and Nandi was talking about getting me some stuff like, we need to get you like some hats or some tees. And they was like, do you want to be brother nature or sister nature? I was like, I want to be nigga nature.

speaker-1 (05:53.718)
Listen, who would want to be that?

speaker-1 (06:16.798)
Absolutely. I'm actually on the merch committee for your nigga nature stuff. Just so you know. We just discussed this last night. I will be on the committee to get these things pushed out for you. Congratulations.

speaker-0 (06:28.898)
I'm glad we talking about it because I pissed them off and they was like, as a matter of fact, because I wasn't growing nothing in the garden for them that was like specific for them. So they like went and bought the domain and was like, now you can't copyright it. I'm not going to let you get the domain. you don't think that's evil?

speaker-1 (06:45.099)
I taught them so well.

I don't I think that's wonderful. I've raised them well

speaker-0 (06:52.3)
Okay. going to move on. What do you like, what comes to mind for you when you hear the word gender?

speaker-1 (07:01.518)
Um, I... gender. First thing that comes to mind, um...

is Barbie.

speaker-0 (07:12.398)
Mm.

speaker-1 (07:13.526)
I don't know why, because I think, because Barbie's smooth down there. There's nothing there. So whatever I want to put on top of my Barbie, like my Barbie can look however, but she's still, they're still smooth in the middle part. So they can decide on what they want to add. That's how gender is for me. It's a smooth part. You know, you can add accessories on there if you want to, or take them off.

speaker-0 (07:35.854)
How do you feel about labels? you think it's like, are there some labels that feel like really at home or are there some that you completely outgrown?

speaker-1 (07:45.088)
I think I've outgrown stud. Like, I've fully outgrown stud. And as much as I try to go back, because that's just where black masc presenting people started at, it just does not fit me anymore. But I will never grow into bulldagger. That will never be me. So there we are.

speaker-0 (08:06.862)
Yeah, nobody don't want to be a bulldagger. I feel like only grandmas use that word.

speaker-1 (08:10.654)
No, there are people our age that's online calling dykes and studs bulldaggers. Yes. It's real Southern coded and I hate it.

speaker-0 (08:17.838)
That's offensive.

speaker-0 (08:32.086)
Okay, so it's time for a little black trans and genderqueer history. Today we're centering the story of Sweet Evening Breeze. Now, Sweet, that's what the people called her, was born in a time and place still shaped by slavery. Lexington, Kentucky in 1892 was racially segregated and her parents had lived their whole lives under slavery.

So even though Sweets herself was technically born free, everything around her, the laws, neighborhoods, schools, jobs, still carry the weight of enslavement. Starting in the 1920s, Sweets was hosting public drag performances in Lexington. And by the 1930s, she showed up in local newspapers photographed in a bridal gown promoting what she called womanless weddings. These were entertainments she put on in black churches. Black churches.

In Kentucky. Wild. She was center stage and the community made space for her. And look, that space wasn't given freely. Let's be clear about that. Sweets got arrested for disorderly conduct. Her house got vandalized. One time a group of young white men beat her ass so badly she ended up in the hospital. The world she lived in was hostile. The Sweets

Sweets kept going, kept showing up, strolling through downtown Lexington like the city belonged to her. And in a lot of ways, it did. There's a story people love to tell. Sweets dressed up in what folks described as feminine frills, descending in a basket from rafters of the Woodland Auditorium to dance something called the Passion Dance of the Bongo Bangos. Now, I don't know exactly what that dance looked like.

But I know it was theater, it was a spectacle, and it was completely on her terms. As one gay man in Lexington put it, Sweets was the official town queer. And she held that title for decades. Before the 1970s, she would have been the first, maybe the only, openly queer person most Kentuckians, black or white, ever knew. She was a reference point.

speaker-0 (10:45.538)
The proof of concept, the living, breathing evidence that queer black people existed and weren't going anywhere. Now here's where the story gets good. Sweets' survival wasn't just about charm. It was very strategic. See, Sweets was out in these streets and her callers, as they were known, included some very prominent white men, athletes from the University of Kentucky.

The coaches actually preferred their players visiting sweets over messing around with the coeds. They considered it harmless fun. So Sweets had information. And according to her close friend, Leigh Angelique, Sweets was rarely harassed because she could reveal the sexual tendencies of important white men. She used that threat to keep herself and her people safe. and she used it. I'm here for it. Go ahead, Sweets.

When Lexington police raided a drag performance at a gay bar called The Living Room and arrested four drag queens, the performance went straight to Sweets. Sweets picked up the phone, called the judge on the case and demanded he dismiss the charges. And the judge, he complied right away. Just like that. Because Sweets knew what she knew and everybody knew she knew it. Later in life, Sweets sat near the entrance of The Living Room.

keeping an eye on timid first-time visitors. Sweets looked around Lexington and said, and this is a direct quote, I'm not making this up, "Lord child, there's so many of them gays now I can't even keep up with them. It's like you can't find a man around here anymore. They're all sissies now. They're hatching out like chickens out of eggs"

That's the voice of somebody who lived long enough to see what she held built. She was 91 years old when she passed. 91. No, thank you. I don't want to live that long. Born in 1892 and still here in the early 80s, stretching across nearly a full century of American life. So when we talk about Sweet Evening Breeze, we're talking about a black trans woman born to parents who had survived slavery.

speaker-0 (13:07.776)
She built a life so loud, so visible and so unapologetically herself that she reshaped what was possible in an entire city. She was a performer, a protector, a strategist and a church house entertainer who turned Lexington, Kentucky into something that looked a little bit more like her long before anyone had the language or the laws to back her.

speaker-0 (13:37.004)
The stud thing too, I don't like the stud. I also see a lot of back and forth between the whole FEMS and the studs and what you're allowed to do and all the restrictions they put on each other. And I'd be like, y'all are, it sounds tough out there.

speaker-1 (13:51.294)
basically joining the heteros with the what men can do and what they can't because men can't do anything nothing

speaker-0 (14:02.134)
Yeah, yikes. I was talking to you about, what were you talking about last week when you were talking about getting the lace front?

speaker-1 (14:12.084)
my gosh, I don't think that's important.

speaker-0 (14:18.286)
And I was making a joke to Nandi about, I was like studs can't have lace fronts and I know you don't identify as a stud but I was like, that's funny.

speaker-1 (14:28.238)
It was so funny. I laughed at that for maybe two days because what was it? Bralettes and what was it? Bralettes and bust downs.

speaker-0 (14:37.474)
Bralettes and bust downs. Did you make something for that yet?

speaker-1 (14:42.782)
I haven't, but I think it's gonna be a thing. Maybe for the summertime, the kids will love it. I told you the Chicago studs, they're wearing nothing but bust downs with beanies on tops and fitted caps. So it's gonna fit them. Yes, that's their thing. I'm wearing a bralettes, but I'm not a stud. So I don't know. I don't know. I've seen it happen, okay?

speaker-0 (14:58.296)
Is that allowed?

speaker-1 (15:07.404)
There were points when I was a younger stud in my early 20s and I was wearing a blazer and a sports bra as an outfit,

speaker-0 (15:15.98)
How do you feel like you got there though? Like one day you just woke up and you was like, fuck this. I'm done with the labels. Like what?

speaker-1 (15:22.828)
No, it was more so we were wearing business casual in the clubs and I also wanted to give slut. So those are the only ways to get there. A blazer and a sports bra. And it wasn't a good sports bra. It was like those Walmart ones with the little thin straps. Basically a bralette it seems. So yeah, I started off in a bralette. Might as well end in one.

speaker-0 (15:50.57)
Is there a somebody that's like non-binary, genderqueer that you really look up to?

speaker-1 (15:59.124)
Monét X Change. I love them so much. And I think that I love how they use every pronoun.

I was watching them on Ziwe and they were saying, what did she say? She said that she uses every single pronoun and she lets people decide on how they perceive her. So if you see her as a woman, use she. If you perceive her as a man, use he. If you perceive her as non-binary or no gender or just all genders, then use they. And I think that's cool. Like that's pretty much just like gaining all type of confidence and freedom and just being who you are regardless of how people perceive you.

speaker-0 (16:40.268)
Yeah, I feel that. That's kind of how I feel. if you see me as a she, I can be a she. If you see me as a non-binary, I can be a they. Just don't call me he. And if you see that, ignore it.

speaker-1 (16:51.114)
I always see you as they

speaker-0 (16:54.614)
Yeah, most people see me as they, but then it's also like, feel when like in work spaces and I don't know why very similar to like what you said is always like she, she, she. And then if I like correct somebody, it gets weird because they start doing that thing where they're like, they'll say she and they're like, sorry, my bad. They, she, this is so confusing.

speaker-1 (17:16.374)
Yeah, I hate that. Hate that. My last job, was all they, everybody called me they except for a few people they weren't sure they called me he. They didn't know if I was a gay man or just a man. So they called me he a lot.

speaker-0 (17:37.1)
Like growing up, like when you were little, what was it like? Like what was being a boy and what was like being a girl? Was that, well first, was that even a thing in your house?

speaker-1 (17:50.944)
I grew up in a house filled with nothing but women and my grandfather. So it was nothing but just feminine energy everywhere. to me it was, you know, I knew the difference between boy and girl, but my grandfather always was like the epitome of a man to me. So that's what I always looked at. But there was a difference. My grandmother and my aunts and all of them, they always cleaned and they took care of things and it was being pretty and put together at all times. And my grandfather just was...

very, I'm gonna go do the hard work, I'm gonna go build a china or something. He was going to build something at all times. I don't know what he was building, but he was always building something. I call him Jesus all the time still because he's a carpenter like Jesus.

speaker-0 (18:34.67)
Okay. But you didn't grow up like, I always hear you and Nandi like going in deep on church. weren't, you didn't grow up like deep in church.

speaker-1 (18:48.567)
I did, I grew up super deep in church, but it was always a girl. Like that's all it was. I always just had no choice but to be a girl in the skirt down to my ankles. That was nothing. Now I was a boy in a skirt.

speaker-0 (19:01.486)
Why down to your ankles?

speaker-1 (19:04.568)
We couldn't, honey, there's no pants. There's no pants. You gotta be covered. You gotta be covered in the Lord. Yeah, I spent most of my days at church in a skirt with a purse that I used to just swing around and hit people with, because I didn't want to carry a purse. My splits used to get ripped in my skirt, because I was trying to run and do boy things in a skirt.

The signs were always there, nobody paid attention to it, but I had to present in a way that was acceptable for my grandfather, my grandmother, and the church that I went to, all of the churches I went to and all the stuff I did within these churches.

speaker-0 (19:46.926)
Did you play sports? wow.

speaker-1 (19:48.704)
Play softball. The signs were there. They ignored them. They ignored every one of them. I remember being about 10, nine, eight, somewhere in those ages and telling my mom that women's butts like bounce when they clap their hands to the church music. And I'm looking back at it and thinking when I was telling you guys this, at no point did you not find that peculiar that I was looking at women's butts.

In church, everybody's up clapping and worshiping and I'm watching booties bounce.

speaker-0 (20:23.566)
That's wild.

speaker-1 (20:27.291)
So that's what it was like being a boy and a girl.

speaker-0 (20:31.86)
But you always felt like a boy and a girl.

speaker-1 (20:34.72)
I always felt like both. It was never, never one or the other for me. It always felt like I am sitting directly in the middle.

speaker-0 (20:46.958)
Yeah, was always, my mama used to always call me a tomboy because I used to, like, I ran track. I liked basketball, but I wasn't good at it. But I used to run track. I used to climb trees. I used to, but I always liked, like, my hair and like my nails done. Because my mama was like a hairdresser. So I always had my hair done and I always liked to look cute. But.

I didn't like the whole, like I always hated dresses. I never was into the dresses.

speaker-1 (21:19.534)
I like the good dress, you know, a nice dress here or there. I like to be cute. I still like to be cute. I would have never guessed you were in track though. That would have not been my sport. I thought you played soccer. Why not soccer?

speaker-0 (21:24.94)
I like to be cute, I just don't.

speaker-0 (21:31.864)
Soccer?

speaker-0 (21:35.487)
I don't know, but I'm gonna look and see what kind of people play soccer because something came to my head and I'm just like...

speaker-1 (21:41.55)
It seems like a they/them sport It's a they them sport like I feel like basketball is very she her But soccer for sure is a they them sport maybe shot put did you do shop what I did shop because I'm not a runner

speaker-0 (21:44.43)
You

speaker-0 (21:57.568)
I did a shot put, I did the 100, 200, 400.

speaker-1 (22:01.719)
you're athletic, not me. Really? I did the bare minimum.

speaker-0 (22:08.224)
If you could talk to younger Chris, the one who thought they had to like pick a side between being a boy or a girl, what would you tell them now?

speaker-1 (22:19.608)
Shave your head. Shave your head. Keep grabbing those scissors and cutting your hair. this is seven year old Chris. Nevermind. She had no hair. She had a fro. So I'm gonna tell seven year old Chris to wherever she wants. She does not have to be like her aunts. It's okay if you like Pokemon a lot.

speaker-1 (22:45.398)
And keep drawing. That's my answer. It's okay. Be you. Be exactly who you are. You feel safe being the little tomboy in the Griffeys every single day with those overalls that you wouldn't take off. Keep doing it. Don't change.

speaker-0 (23:01.62)
Overalls are definitely a... Actually, my thing wasn't overalls. I used to love suspenders. I feel like that's very, very dyke-y.

speaker-1 (23:08.694)
Ooh, I love suspenders, too.

speaker-1 (23:14.176)
I think the suspenders are like a preppy version of overalls. Congratulations. You have out they/them'd me. Congratulations.

speaker-0 (23:24.078)
I got a whole lot of suspenders now, but I haven't worn every time I see some suspenders. I'm like, I want those. And I just got like a drawer of suspenders that I never wear.

speaker-1 (23:31.828)
Thank you for letting me know I'm coming to buy to try on some suspenders. I'll see you soon.

speaker-0 (23:39.863)
you

speaker-0 (23:47.534)
That's all I got for today. you want to connect with Chris, you can find them on Instagram at @cris.mp4v. And if this episode dragged you a little bit or hugged you a little bit, please share it with someone you love. You can find me, your non-binary cousin, Shaun Dawson on all platforms at @iamsdawson. Y'all be safe out there.