speaker-1 (00:00.27)
Welcome into the He Wants She Wants Marriage podcast. In this episode, we're talking about have you married a narcissist? We're going to be doing a deep dive into the difference between a narcissist and a person who has insecure attachment patterns. To kick off, are you worried? Are you afraid that you might have married a narcissist? Are people around you nagging, gossiping in your ears saying that

You've married a narcissist and this is getting you to start doubting yourself and your relationship. And are you hearing so many labels and titles about you and about your partner that at the end of the day, you're not even able to enjoy your relationship. It's distracting you from the flow of love and actually creating a beautiful relationship.

If you resonate with any of this, we definitely get you. We've been there. This has really been a core central issue for us in our marriage. What is your experience of that?

speaker-0 (01:08.792)
Yeah, it has been because it's so easy to bring labels in it and there's so much information out there. And I know from my own perspective, I had all of those. had the question mark when I started learning about narcissism and seeing your behaviors and your patterns. There were so many things that I could just kind of put into that box and kind of go, yeah, that feels narcissistic, that feels abusive. And then the

was like family of course like from my side my family would just say how certain behaviors are definitely sign off maybe they didn't use the word narcissism specific but they used words like abusive or toxic which are kind of part of that so that confusion and also that thing of is the is it that label

Is it another one? label am I slapping onto you? Is it more than one? In my work, I've come across clients that would say like, that my partner fits into one, two, three, four, five different categories. And I had that with you. And realizing how that was not really bringing ultimately any resolution to it, it wasn't really giving me a happy marriage. It was just confusing.

speaker-1 (02:30.636)
Yeah, when I think of my perspective, living with that label narcissism, it was so easy for my persona in all the challenging moments that we were having in relationship to go, well, your granny is grade A narcissist, narcissistic, your mother, my God, and a pair of them together. So, hey, one plus one equals, you know, third line in that generational lineage.

It just, it was way too easy. look back on it was way too easy. Now...

This is really the core essence of this episode and why we're bringing it, because you're perfectly placed to comment on this for people that are listening in that are fresh to this podcast. You've been for several years doing like an exceptional deep dive onto the topic of narcissism in your previous podcast, Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. So technically your mother and your granny, they take every single box of quantifiable probably

the major issue is that there's a thin line between what is technically narcissism and what is what actually amounts to be the vast majority of people are actually they're not narcissistic.

They have insecure attachment. If I remember well, you said one to 2 % by scientific research from in psychological journals around the world, only one to max 2 % of people have technical narcissism. So what we're playing with here, and this is like the major danger and we've seen this online, is there is so much hyped up.

speaker-0 (04:11.992)
they can be diagnosed fully like that.

speaker-1 (04:23.508)
witch hunting of narcissists now that it's in that emphasis and in the spectacular sort of Las Vegas style, you know, there's a lot of labels being put out there where it's so easy for somebody to come in and go, well, they're definitely narcissistic. The point here is the vast majority of time they're not. If you put that label on inaccurately, it's the end for your marriage.

It's the end for happiness. It's the end for connection. So being able to distinguish which line your partner is actually on is of exceptional importance. And this is where your beautiful world class expertise on narcissism and what is not more importantly, you're going to bring us through was I think it's four. Four key differences and distinctions between these categories.

speaker-0 (05:14.062)
main differences.

speaker-0 (05:20.584)
Yeah, and why that is so important is in my work of the last few years, one thing that became very apparent and obvious is that when you slap a label of narcissism on someone, all the hope of any redemption goes out the window. Like in my work, if you've been following me and you've worked with me, you know I'd be saying to you, miracles do happen, but don't hang on to the hope that your mother, if she's narcissistic,

is going to actually miraculously transform because it kind of doesn't really tend to happen. So when we do this in relationship, when we just go, okay, you're a narcissist, that kind of puts an end to the efforts.

and the willingness to work together to transform it and to the hope. If you're the person that feels like my partner is narcissistic over I've married the narcissist, then the hope goes out the window. that's why, and there's there are plenty more signs and plenty more things, but we decided we focus on four main ones because they are like the key. As you said, they're the key points that are going to just really make the difference stand out. So that's why we focus on this four.

So the first thing that we want to know about a narcissist is the narcissist has from the very beginning of your relationship with the moment you meet them, the first red flag is they're out to manipulate you from the start. There is an intentionality, there is an intent in wanting to manipulate you from the start. They never really truly want a good relationship with you. They don't care. They have a purpose. They have their own needs and

bring you into the relationship is to fulfill those needs. That's the only reason. The entire relationship, you, it's a mean to an end that is meeting their own needs. An insecure attach comes into the relationship wanting a good relationship. They actually like you. They actually want to have a good relationship with you, but

speaker-0 (07:36.786)
insecure attach when we're saying insecure attach we're talking mainly about avoidance and anxious we're not going to go into it too much in details but the avoidant after a little while their main fear kicks in and is the fear of rejection for the anxious the main fear that kicks in is the fear of abandonment so at the beginning we have this period where it's actually really genuinely good they really want to have a good relationship but

Then the fear kicks in and we start seeing the development of aspects that can seem, that's where the fine line is, can seem very similar to what a narcissist would display, but it's not. That's where it comes from. It comes from that fear.

The narcissist will continue the manipulation relentlessly throughout the relationship while for the insecure attach, it's mainly because the fear gets triggered.

speaker-1 (08:37.89)
That was so crucial for me in the preparation and our discussions. And we do deep dive discussions on this for hours at a time before every single episode. It was so revealing for me that distinction because I could look back and go, your sweetness was there. Your desire for closeness was there. Your love was there. was like our and I think listening to hundreds of men speaking about the marriages, the vast majority of people can tap into there was this

There there was a tenderness, there was this. It just seemed so easy in the beginning. And that's a good sign. That's a damn good sign. If you can resonate and go, yeah, actually, there was that pocket in the beginning. Again, it's so the people tap into the hope and the hope brings that willingness. But I definitely look back and go, well, for all.

my part of the ego that in recent years, like I'm doing it all and you're just not willing and blah, blah, blah. And it hid behind that narcissistic term that blew me out of the water. It was like it was never narcissism. That was a very beautiful connecting point for me personally as your husband.

speaker-0 (09:49.938)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And these pockets remain throughout the relationship with the insecure attach. Now I know that again, that's the fine line that can be confused with, but narcissists do the love bombing thing and they just do it intermittently. But again, they do it to manipulate. They don't actually mean it. It's purely like, I've pushed her too far or I've pushed him too far. I'm going to have to just roll them back in or else I won't be able to meet my need. It's very different than actually, no, when I'm feeling

safe and not fully triggered, I actually fully really want to be with you and love you, but then the fear kicks in. So that's the main difference point one. The second point is both narcissist and insecure attach can show signs of being very self-centered.

But there is a difference here again. The narcissist feels superior. They just have a self-righteous story that is not even separate from them anymore. It's not even a story. If you tell them you've got a story, they don't think they have a story. They have a 100 % absolute truth of being completely superior to you in everything, not just in one thing.

Not just I can do the dishes better than you. That's not narcissism. That's a little bit of, you know, pride in what you're doing, but it's in everything. that's a narcissist where an insecure attach carries wounds. Insecure attachment comes from trauma. We carry wounds and when those wounds get triggered, we get self-centered.

Because in that moment, the protective mechanisms take over. And when you're in survival mode, you don't care about other people. You just want to save yourself. That's what happens. So those parts, the wounded parts that take over.

speaker-0 (11:46.178)
can have that self-centeredness that looks very much like narcissism. So we can even say, they have narcissistic behaviors in certain moments, but they're not narcissists. It's just in that moment. And now, of course, the longer the relationship, the longer the patterns go unchecked, the more those moments can become. So it can seem like it's always, but it's not actually always. If you pay attention, there plenty of times where they're actually

caring for you or worried for you or want to listen to you genuinely. Where a narcissist never does that. Their superior is full full stop.

speaker-1 (12:22.926)
Yeah. And again, for me in this, in this conversation, the superiority thing triggered me because getting radically honest with myself over the last number of years, plenty of times a part of me played to the superior. You're the winded one. Hey, I'm doing all the work. You're the one that had divorced parents. My parents like don't be projecting your stuff on me. It played.

what I look back in plenty of moments, this superiority complex. But again, it was revealing. It was, there was a part of me that settled that went, OK, so it's not actually narcissistic. It's like a pocket of what can be intense self-centeredness. But it's not the old

pervasive superiority complex. That's a key distinction. And I think it's a key for everybody listening in, because if everybody is honest on all of these points, we're going to have some pockets of this in moments. It's the unrelenting, all pervasive nature.

speaker-0 (13:26.188)
Yeah, the superiority was a big thing for me in confusion, thinking you're always, my brain would go, he's always feeling so superior. But in closer analysis, was like so much very often in response to some of my patterns.

So these dynamics keep happening. And as you said, when we look at it closer, we start seeing the subtle differences. The next point is that this sense of superiority in the narcissist brings a lack of attunement and a complete lack of empathy. Narcissists just don't have empathy. They can seem to have at times when it suits them, but it's a non attuned empathy.

They'll come to you and say something like, poor thing, that must be very hard when you're actually going like, well, no, actually, it's not hard. I'm just just a bit upset. But why are you putting this on me? But they they keep bringing it at the wrong moment. And that confuses you even more than you don't know what you're feeling anymore. That's what a narcissist will do. And it's not real empathy. They're not actually worried for you. I've literally seen plenty of examples in my own life.

in my own family of when people truly suffered, other members of the family just like not caring in the least, showing no empathy was pretty interesting and intense to witness. An insecure attached.

has empathy, but in the moments when the wounds get triggered, again, the survival mode kicks in. And when you're in survival mode to that level, empathy goes out the window. It's not that I don't want to care for you. remember conversation, actually moments with you where I was completely checked out because something got like, someone got triggered so intensely in me that it's like.

speaker-0 (15:33.282)
you would tell me you're not there. So in those moments, I could say things to you that were extremely hurtful for you. And it was almost startling to me then how quickly I could come back if you showed that you were hurt. rather than get aggressive and defensive and so then we feed on each other, but actually just show me, you know, literally tears could come out or...

You were showing me that you were hurt. It's like my real self is coming back on board. It's like, whoa, I've hurt you. And I didn't, I really didn't mean to do that. It's like, it's almost like there's two, because there's different parts. There's like the parts that are wounded and then there's the real sort of inner leader, the you that comes back on board. So this will happen with an insecure attach. Anarsis doesn't have that. Anarsis is completely self-absorbed.

lack of empathy, always worried about themselves. They don't. If they seem to come back, it's purely because they want to drag you back in. They pushed you too far, but not because they genuinely get, my God, I've I've actually hurt you. And that was not my intention. I don't even know where I was. don't even remember what I've said.

speaker-1 (16:54.414)
Yeah, my research on this, having spoken with hundreds of married men around the world over the last number of years, is that exact point. Part of the challenge, and it can happen both ways, but I a lot of wives will resonate with this. Men, we have been...

shamed out of our emotional connection. Emotions are weak. Don't be a pussy. Get up. Don't cry. Don't be a little girl, etc. It's so shamed that empathy and attunement to emotionality were so disconnected with it that in moments of emotional intensity, the system shuts off. 90 % of stonewalling happens in husbands, not wives, because we shut off to it, which is

Once you stonewall, there's a shutting off of empathy. The good news for wives listening in is literally like 99 % of men when I do a conflict breakdown on the different phases of it, at some point, empathy comes back online.

you mightn't be present because your husband can be afterwards when he's out in the shade or the next morning he's on the way to work. And then a wave of regret, a wave of, my God, you know, I've here, I've screwed up again. I didn't mean to say those things. God. And there's this remorse that comes through. So the empathy and the attunement is there. I want to bring that again. It's just knowing how clever our personas can be to go

my partner just zero empathy. Be aware that you got to look for it and very often you won't bear witness to it because it mightn't actually happen in the moment. So you have to keep your eyes open for that. I had that practice with yourself as well. had to in those moments when you shut down to me, it was afterwards, after the conflict.

speaker-1 (18:52.426)
A sweetness and a clear embodiment of empathy, of you realizing certain things. But if I kept only my awareness on the in the container of conflict, it was too easy for me to go, you don't attune to me. You don't care about me. You don't have empathy. It's the afterwards. It's key where we pick up the data.

speaker-0 (19:14.388)
It's such an interesting point, because, and we actually had it in the first draft of the episode. We had the stonewall in the silent treatment and all those aspects. And then we just simplified it, but you're bringing it in. it's so interesting because I have had that experience many times of, yeah, there is the conflict moment. may say things that are hurtful that checked out space and all of that that we described. And then afterwards, when I'm on my own, I'm like, I have that.

full on empathy. What the hell? Like I've hurt you.

When we get back together, though, so in let's say this happens by myself in, I mean, the city room by myself or you're in the shed and then we're meeting again. We may not say it and the hardness may come back because again, we're stepping into the lack of safety again. So when you're on your own, there can be, I'm actually safe to access and our system on their own. They're not like, they don't give a fuck. They're actually just doing their own things. They probably go, you know, do something that's

good for them or text someone else or whatever or make a story with other people about what you did. There's a whole like they're just going to keep validating their own system and their own story of righteousness where that was something that happened all the time.

The avoidant is going to look for safety with space. And that's where the likes of stonewalling can come and can be mistaken for an intentional manipulative side silent treatment. it's not the anxious is going to look for safety in staying in closeness. So that's going to come across as controlling much like the manipulation and control of a narcissist, but they're going to be different. So that was a little bit of a, just because

speaker-0 (21:04.568)
brought that in, I think that was important to say. And the final point that we brought was gaslighting, invalidating of feelings, of emotions, of opinions and all of that. That's very typical of narcissism. And I remember actually when I started bringing gaslighting as a thing, because I was studying narcissism, it became

speaker-1 (21:07.598)
Definitely, it's wonderful.

speaker-0 (21:29.558)
this really frustrating thing between us that it was like, if I'm saying something to you, you're just lighting me. I'm I'm not. I'm not. Gaslighting is so intentional. It's actually intentional. I am sitting here. I know exactly what's going on in your system. I couldn't give a crap because I have no empathy and I'm just going to.

Use words and just deny what I said and just play around until you are like completely scrambled and confused. And so you'll just do what I say. That's gaslighting. And that is something that narcissists use a lot, very intentionally. And again, relentlessly, that's just everything it's aimed at confusing you, keeping you under control.

What happens with an insecure attach is what we said before. There are moments of lack of presence. You check out because the wound has been triggered. The part that's wounded takes over. Your true self, inner leader, yourself, it's not there in that moment. You're dissociated to a degree. So in those moments we can say things, we can invalidate, we can even forget what we said. And then when the other person goes, yeah, but you told me...

Like we actually had an experience just last night. I was like, in some conversation you told me you weren't even sure you loved me and you were like, well, I never told you that. Well, I can tell you you did, but I get it because in that moment it was like a full on, it was a completely different part that was being expressed and it wasn't a fully present conversation because wounds were triggered. It was an intense, difficult conversation. So that happens all the time, but it's not intentional.

You weren't trying to mess with me to hurt me by telling me that. So then you can then love bomb me afterwards. And it's not that is present. It's purely in that moment. And we've had, you've told me that plenty of times. but you've said I've heard your exact words and I'm like, how I don't even remember.

speaker-1 (23:41.046)
I'm a migraine coming on with you said, but you said in like 40 minutes talking about what you said. I didn't say that. What I did say, God, God, everybody. If you're listening into a marriage podcast, you're going to resonate with that shit. That's just.

speaker-0 (23:59.746)
But again, it's not intentional. It's never intentional. It's purely a nervous system mechanism when the fear kicks in to that level and it's subconscious. don't mean to. We don't even know. You could even go, but I don't have those fears. We'll talk again in a one-on-one container and we'll find out. But it's when they kick into such a degree, we're not present. We're not there. The part takes over.

And we say things that then we don't mean, we forget. Literally we forget because it's a different part of the city.

speaker-1 (24:37.036)
Yeah. This is I'm finding it so validating to hear this list myself. It is true in discussion of this, too, just to clarify with people, we passionately discussed this for hours and we had one sticking point. It was like, what's the definition? How do we define that? You know, it's like it's wanting to have two lists, but

the confirmation biases in her own persona can still just go narcissist.

you know, 50 % of people could go narcissist when it's technically only one or 2%. It's a, have such a power in our persona to push the responsibility to other people. So we were trying to find some part of a definition that could in some way reduce the risk of people coming away with a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, that's

insecure attached, that must be for the other 98 % of the people, but I've got the real deal beside me. He or she is just a fucking classic case. The one defining feature that we developed was narcissism in marriage is a relentless unwillingness to ever take personal responsibility or initiate change ever.

And the key word is relentless. we believe it's pretty shit hard. It really covers and it takes for me, takes a great degree of honesty to look at that. That word for me was, okay. When I rinse my beautiful and in many ways, not so beautiful filing cabinet of memories of conflicts that have this

speaker-1 (26:33.644)
Complete self-centered bias of I'm only perceiving and everybody like that's the difficulty in marriage. Our library of video recordings of conflict. It's always looking at another face. So it's inherently. Subcentered. We don't actually ever have a library of how.

our faces and our tone and our literal words. We never have that. So it's the brain fuck of this work. We are actually all inherently self-centered. We can't be otherwise in a way.

But when I look back and rinse through all of those video memories in my filing cabinet, I can really tap into, no, you weren't relentlessly.

gaslighting, there were moments and not to go through all the beautiful distinctions. There are moments when it could seem like that, but relentless. No, no way. You know, I go through the different with the intent to control and manipulate. It's like I even jokingly was I've started calling them Mark, Mark, you're manipulating me. There's a play on it, but it's not always there and it's momentary. And I get that it's the lack of safety and the superiority, et cetera, et cetera. And vice versa. You with me.

You know, it's have I ever been relentlessly there? I passionately believe that the literal 98 to 99 percent of people listening in, if there's a part of you going, hey, my partner is so self-centered, it might just be narcissistic. Relentlessly embodying those four characteristics. Ninety nine percent of the time you're going to have to be honest and go, no.

speaker-1 (28:24.034)
they're not actually always doing that and that's really key.

speaker-0 (28:27.968)
It is one thing that comes up and because I have clearly worked with narcissism quite closely for a number of years is, the differences that we're bringing doesn't make one or other less hurtful as in when in those moments, because you can be going, OK, maybe he's not narcissistic, maybe he's this or maybe she's not. Maybe she's that or whatever.

I'm getting hurt all the time. And that's, that's, that's actually, this is not to say that one is less hurtful or anything. It's purely that one label. It's such a villainization and it's like, it's forever. It's the, does no hope of change with the other. There's a hope. So that's the first thing. And the other thing is safety is first, obviously. it's like, if you're listening to this and the reason you're listening to this is because your situation in your relationship is actually genuine.

unsafe and I've had to say that very often in my podcast even with mother-daughter's relationship but well then you get yourself to safety first then you can analyze all of these. is the most important thing but the understanding I say even for those listening in that may be the one that's recognizing I have those patterns in my system

And they're feeling validated like, like we have, because when you started taking away the labels from me and actually just seeing me in where I was, there was a lot of validation there. Cause in so many moments, I so wanted to meet you. I so wanted a good relationship. I so wanted to show you all of that. I just did not know how.

and I'm working constantly with women actually saying, I don't know how. I don't have the tools. I have all these fears. I want to do the things. I want to speak a certain way. I want to practice. I want to do all of those things. I just don't know how to move from this space of fear that's gripping.

speaker-0 (30:41.358)
and then do that. that's obviously what, that's the next bit of the episode that we're going to give. But I wanted to share that because for anyone listening going, I'm feeling validated in all of this. I personally, and I know you've shared with me similarly, but.

I've been there so many times and the narcissist is never there. our sister's never, never wants to know how, never cares. They, never have those moments in their head where they're like, I really would love to connect. just, I'm so afraid. I don't know how they don't. Where an insecure attach will have those moments.

speaker-1 (31:18.304)
One thing I'm passionate about is not getting caught in labels. I have personally found that and with hundreds, hundreds of guys around the planet. When you get caught in a label,

you're putting yourself or your partner in a box and it's going to be it's the labeling effect. There's been tons of psychological research on this. Once you label a person, your whole paradigm on them has locked in. It's a box. So I am a passionate believer of screw the label. Go beyond it.

You know, love conquers all. We say these things. We love the songs and we're talking like all mystical traditions are on that. There's this infinite power of love. I believe that to the to the core of my being. And yeah, I believe people that's why we look at these films and listen to music, etc, etc. That love.

If narcissism is the relentless unwillingness, there is a powerful antidote, I would say to in 99 % of the cases and it's unstoppable. It's a relentless willingness.

speaker-1 (32:35.064)
The rub on this is not very many people are willing to pay the price to embody a relentless willingness. And I look at myself and I look at guys listening in and there's a key distinguishing difference. You can sort of play willingness some of the time and it's really easy. And I put my own hand up there. I'm willing when.

things get tough. had a willingness. you know, we're out of whack and I have this willingness to lead this conversation. But relentless willingness is the long term. It's a way of life. It's a state of being. Whether with this partner, next partner, that child, this part, whatever moment, I will relentlessly bring honesty. Sincerity. Courage.

You don't know what's the what the outcome of a conversation is going to be, but I'm going to be relentless in my willingness to be courageous and lead that conversation. What I have seen in my marriage and in so many guys is temporary willingness is not relentless. the major problem with that is.

It relies on necessity. God, we're so out of whack now. Now we're the whole weekend and you're willing for that conversation or that weekend and things sort of come back into alignment. things are good. But then the willingness backs off. Relentless willingness is, hey, things are completely off. I'm willing in this conversation. You don't have to meet me.

If this is completely unsafe, if you go into a hole, if you go to the far-handed universe, that's okay. I'll be here tomorrow.

speaker-1 (34:22.094)
tomorrow and there's at some point.

That is inherently safe. Relentless willingness makes things infinitely easier. I know for myself and it's we're going to be talking about the agreements in this, but I'm going to start with agreement number three. Big dreams, small steps. Relentless willingness for me gave me the power. And this was like in the origins of this podcast and everything. People can go back to episode number one to unpack that.

Relentless willingness. That's what I did. Hey, I'm hearing this conversation. We've done really brilliant to get to this point. I'm still not content with where we're at. There's so much of our music still left inside of us, but I'm bringing the conversation today. You don't want it today. You're not ready. That's OK. I'm going to bring it tomorrow morning at breakfast. And if you're not ready at breakfast, I quite literally said this to Madilla. You're not quite ready at breakfast. I'm OK with that, baby. I love you. I know what I want.

I know what I stand for. I'm here for love. Not OK at breakfast. I'll remind you again at lunchtime. You're not ready at lunchtime. Funny enough, are you getting the point here? I'm there at dinnertime. What was the effect of that embodiment of relentless willingness? Because it's actually bringing it back to me. That's literally what I was saying to you. It's like I'm here. I'm going all in. I'm not going to back off.

The only point I'd back off is if you ever go to me, that's it. You don't love me. Mark, stop. I am not backing off. What did that create in your nervous system?

speaker-0 (36:02.156)
Mm-hmm.

beyond wanting to label you as stubborn mule.

speaker-1 (36:09.664)
Hey, that's my favorite label that you labeled me with, baby.

speaker-0 (36:15.086)
on a sincere note, safety. Actually, it was really safe from a person that has feared abandonment because of my childhood and stuff all my life to actually hear, doesn't matter how effectively, doesn't matter how intensely I reacted as long as I was willing to stick in the game. As you said, I wasn't telling you that's it, I'm done.

But as long as I'm willing to be here, you are willing to be here. You're not actually going to leave me. But you are going to keep making your point because that is what's important to you. So it gave me safety and it gave me a really sincere, honest insight into what you were feeling and needing.

And so that was, that actually made things quite simple. Ultimately, it was, I was pretty quick to turn around because once that safety is there, that's what an insecure attach needs is safety. And it may need to, you know, there's plenty of ways we bring safety in, but, that safety is what you brought.

speaker-1 (37:32.8)
It's a key thing for me. And I found that there was a miraculous power in that. And it was the relentlessness with which I brought it. I was like, I'm Five, six years. I've been willing, but I now have a clear distinction going. It wasn't relentless, Mark.

Brilliant, infinitely better than what it was before. Yeah. More consistent. Yeah. More discipline. Yeah. More empathy. Yeah. More of a whole heap of things. But the key secret was I was relentless. And I really want to bring that to you guys at home where that's the magical force because so often we're hearing there's the two sides. One person can go, God, I'm just yearning that safety. And I do resonate with those characteristics and those signs and behaviors.

But I just don't know how. And there is an answer to both of it. And you can be the partner that says I'm willing. But my main issue in marriage is my.

husband or wife isn't willing to join the community. My husband or wife isn't willing to listen to the podcast. My husband or wife isn't willing. In those cases, my direct challenge to that person, because that's like me and that's like so many people, men I've found that have done the work, joined the work.

their ego comes back with a really kickass, beautiful story, and women can create their own story on it as well. And it's so righteous. It's from the pulpit, which is I'm doing the work and you're not willing. And there's this sort of like a. You're probably really triggered by me doing because I'm doing a shadow embodiment of my rationalized righteousness and superiority is like, hey, you know, I'm willing over here, but you're just not the.

speaker-1 (39:20.898)
The humble crumble to eat is. It's there's a 99.9 % chance if that's your experience and you're experiencing a partner that quote unquote isn't willing to do the work, you're nowhere near relentless willingness your side. But let's go into the three agreements. Well, there is the third one there, which is big dreams, small steps.

Leave it to yourself. It was number one for you playing poorly. Why is that so important?

speaker-0 (39:50.35)
It's essential because that is that taking responsibility.

We said that the narcissist has relentless unwillingness to take responsibility for their part. The minute you start playing poorly well with yourself, it means that when you're in a mood, you're not just coming in and throwing that mood at the other person. You're not just going on whatever whim or wave of intense emotionality, lashing out, saying things that hurt. We're bringing back in check. Okay, I'm actually not, I'm beginning to learn when I'm not present.

take responsibility and play poorly well because being tired for example you're not gonna be very present or if you have a lot of stress at work you're not gonna be very present so you start saying it darling I'm today I can feel that I'm really stressed I just need to go rest or I just need to go for a jog or I just I need to tell you so that we start playing poorly well at the beginning it can seem very basic but it just gets more and more refined and that's

That in itself makes a massive difference.

speaker-1 (41:01.39)
It's a game changer. And then there's number two, which is porting a storm and porting the storm quite literally like that. The port in the storm never turns against the captain that comes in and goes, shit broke loose in the ocean and on the seas. I need to have a safe space to harbor where I can come in and just settle myself away from the storm. The port never turns against the captain. And it's that support that is necessary.

So you have the safety from playing poorly well. And one person can really rocket with that and evoke, you know, there's that principle. Your body is transmitting a message that evokes a response.

and the insecure attached, you can evoke a response where they actually meet you there when they feel safe. The port in the storm is that support. OK, now we've got the safety. Now there's a conversation going. But when you have that first conversation, the beginning, the middle, you know, at the end of it, you never at some point turn against them. And this next conversation, now there's a momentum going now. Wow. It's the second conversation in a couple of days. Don't allow the 20, 30, 40 years

We all have wounds. We all have resentments. We all have, you know, entitlement. I'm entitled to just good. We have these parts that we don't allow that part spill out and take the untitled part of our hurting inner child that just wants to stomp its feet and go, I deserve better. And you've always been. And all of these stories comes out. do. You set that agreement in yourselves.

I'm not going to turn against this person. I'm just not. And that doesn't mean that your mind won't bring up a thought that is against the person that is blaming. but you said. But funny enough, the port in the storm practice and playing pretty well, they're closely linked. The main practice is a thought comes up in your mind and it will. These thoughts still come up in my mind.

speaker-1 (43:10.702)
But it's accessing, it's like this quality control manager part inside where just because your mind coughed up a thought doesn't mean it's a high quality thought and it deserves to be spoken or acted on. You'll find that 98 % of the time, I know in my practice, 98 % of my thoughts in conflict is just, I don't want to fucking speak those. That's just going to bring things out. That's the port in a storm.

speaker-0 (43:39.278)
With these two agreements, you're either effectively brings it back down to the fact you're either building connection or you're destroying it. And when you're practicing these agreements, everything that you're doing builds that connection. When you do it for long enough, like a couple of weeks, a couple of months, it stacks. And then all of a sudden there's safety in the relationship. And so then all of a sudden those patterns don't need

to be used as much, we start changing them to new pathways. We've definitely seen that. It's like, I think if someone took a video of us, I don't know, a couple of years ago and now it's like interactions, conversations, so many things are completely different.

speaker-1 (44:27.278)
Yeah, the ultimate change happens is when your identity shifts over time. You're a different person. There's new pathways, new ways of thinking, new ways of perceiving, new ways of reacting, new ways of of navigating the moments and identity. It's like the thing. Identity is not like your shoe size, your shoe size unless you chop your foot off or chop off. It's the same size. It's the same thing. You can't change that. Identity is this beautiful, evolving thing.

which it's literally comes from identity, that's repeated beingness. So the three agreements, you when you not if when you repeatedly practice these repeatedly, put them into play, repeatedly get your nervous system going, I'm to play play pretty well.

I'm not going to follow those thoughts and go against my beautiful wife or my loving husband. I'm just not. I'm not going to and then big dreams, small steps. Well, now you have the wonder and joy that marriage is and can become, which is you're growing. Your identity is expanding and love expands and flows there. Baby, this has been a kickass, beautiful conversation with you.

speaker-0 (45:40.514)
Yes.

speaker-1 (45:41.646)
My expectation, I know, is your expectation is the wonderful people listening in at home. They're taking this on board and they're letting these seeds plant in and nourish their heart and soul back into life to bring that.

relentless willingness and leaving you guys in this episode, that's the invitation. That's the call to action to you is embody that relentless willingness in your marriage. Bring that relentless willingness to lead that conversation, not just the first time, the second, but the third, the fourth, the fifth, and just don't back off. And the embodiment of the tree.

agreements. It's really an unstoppable force to bring back online that beautiful trust, the connection and the flow of love. And of course, so one, share it with your partner.

speaker-0 (46:30.83)
Yes, share this app it is out.

speaker-1 (46:35.79)
So with that, we're good.

saying goodbye to you guys and between this episode and the next, of course, it's the He Wants She Wants podcast. Dare to go get what you want. Bye guys.