00:00.42
Talal K
Whenever you're ready.

00:04.09
alexei sayle
hi everybody, welcome to episode 117 of the Alexi Sale podcast. Just me and the tea man this week, the Talal Pot, Teapot,

00:22.20
Talal K
Yo.

00:22.42
alexei sayle
here with my and with my crew.

00:24.31
Talal K
What up?

00:27.00
alexei sayle
um And so, yeah, um I suppose we should concentrate on current affairs. First of all, I just what a joyous day it was Friday, really.

00:37.14
Talal K
Oh God.

00:43.96
alexei sayle
I was doing some filming. I had to get up early and I got the driver to put on Radio 4 Today program when it started at 6am and it was just joyful to listen to the news of the...

01:00.63
alexei sayle
um

01:03.54
Talal K
The Greens election.

01:03.65
alexei sayle
Gorton and Denton yeah I mean it was you know I quickly caught it on the TV just before I left and um yeah it was it was a wonderful day really and on the way back I i listened to the 5 5 p.m show on Radio 4 again the car going back and it's just you know by then they you know they're starting to

01:29.77
alexei sayle
You're very excused, but it's, ah you know, its it seems it feels highly significant, really, that, um I mean, if well, they were kind of, you know, getting in their excuses and there was more, you know, you know more centrist pundits being wheeled out to, you know, say various crap.

01:36.22
Talal K
Wait, by 5pm they started to what?

01:42.61
Talal K
Yeah.

01:51.76
alexei sayle
Yeah.

01:52.15
Talal K
Yeah. Yeah.

01:53.37
alexei sayle
But, um you know, it it really yeah it hints at that. I mean, you can you can thank you can thank your party in a way that I sort of feel like your party awakened this consciousness amongst people, you know, the launch of your party and the 800,000 who registered, you know, their interest in them.

02:14.52
alexei sayle
um You know, then that dissolved into kind of infighting and people were left looking for a home and the Greens were there to... offer that And I think there's a, you know, it's really potentially, really, I mean, seismic, I think, because it also shows that the people will unite to keep out reform and they will now unite around the Greens rather than the stinking Labour Party.

02:41.40
alexei sayle
So, you know, I don't, you know, I mean, there's a a long way to go yet, but I'm always reluctant to make predictions.

02:41.66
Talal K
yeah

02:49.50
alexei sayle
But um it it feels really, it feels really significant. I mean, I hope to God that the Labour Party is finished.

02:59.96
alexei sayle
But it... um you know, it was just a joyful day. And then, of course, Saturday, back back to less than zero, really. I mean, it's...

03:11.06
Talal K
Yeah.

03:12.12
alexei sayle
but i mean i mean it's it's i means I mean, it's been apparent, I mean, in terms of, know, the issue that, you know, concerns us the most, which is, because it's ah it's ah it's a moral bellwether, this issue of Israel, I think it seemed for a long time that the

03:36.41
alexei sayle
The destruction of the apartheid state of Israel is not going to come via military means or those military forces that opposed Israel. First of all, the secular forces, the you know popular fronts for liberation and all that.

03:51.86
alexei sayle
And then the Islamist forces have been you know are in retreat or being defeated, really. The the that the destruction of of Israel as an apartheid state is going to come from us, really. It's going to come from the West, and ah a green government in Britain would be... a would go a long way. I mean, and obviously, I mean, support for the Zionist state is also collapsing in the United States.

04:17.01
alexei sayle
It's difficult to see how that can find, mean, a majority now, I think nearly a majority of people in the United States are supportive the Palestinians and oppose Israel. And that's a ah stunning,

04:30.23
alexei sayle
change now how they find expression for those views seen as i mean our politics is obviously obviously to a degree bought and paid for by israel lobby but this that is much more the case with the democrat party in the united states so i don't know how people find

04:45.85
Talal K
Yeah. Yeah.

04:49.18
alexei sayle
expression for that i mean zora mandami shows that it can be done uh but the need you you mean you really need to somehow remove i mean i'm not an expert on u.s politics but um uh you clearly need to remove those dinosaurs people like chuck schumer nancy pelosi and all those terrible terrible people i do notice that in the guardian today it said that gavin newsome the

05:08.28
Talal K
yeah

05:15.58
alexei sayle
governor of California and somebody who is, you know, running to be the presidential candidate for the Democrats, actually referred to Israel as an apartheid state, which is quiteta quite quite a...

05:27.12
Talal K
Oh.

05:28.76
alexei sayle
I think it's slightly caveated, but it's quite a... it's quite a statement coming from a kind of centrist Democrat.

05:37.21
Talal K
that a leap from what his usual stance is?

05:37.64
alexei sayle
It'll be... massive, yeah, and I don't know whether he might... do whether he'll try and walk that back or not, but... ah Yeah, and it is. ah It seems significant, really. And I mean, ah if Yeah.

05:55.38
Talal K
Yes, he likened Israel to an apartheid state um while he's providing his memoir.

05:55.90
alexei sayle
i

06:03.83
Talal K
It breaks my heart because the current leadership in Israel is walking us down that path where I don't think you have a choice about that consideration when thinking about the military partnership with Israel, he said that.

06:15.96
Talal K
um To say this in America's interest, to say this in America's interest at a time when affordability is at crisis level You have an administration that literally got elected saying this is exactly opposite of what they would ever consider doing.

06:33.16
Talal K
It's true because Trump, yeah, bloody promoted himself as the peacetime president.

06:36.12
alexei sayle
six I mean, yeah. I don't know whether he's doing it because, you know, he's israeli his Israeli backers, Miriam Adelson, the people who have given him hundreds of million dollars are...

06:39.45
Talal K
um

06:48.16
alexei sayle
demanding that he go along with the... I don't i don't know. i don't yeah I can't really speak to Trump's motivation, whether he just... I mean, but it is clear that Israel is winning the you know that is winning militarily, but the one can see that in its greatest moment of triumph, may be it's maybe also be it's its greatest moment of defeat, really. that I think people, I imagine...

07:12.76
alexei sayle
the average person if is appalled by the, you know, torpedoing the warship in international waters, for instance. You know, the destruction of the, you know, the expansionist aims in southern Lebanon the and the bombing of of Tehran, really, is that that... that um

07:34.03
alexei sayle
all really, i mean, leads, you know, any any right-minded person to be, you know, even if they're not politically engaged, it's just repelled by these actions. And

07:47.22
Talal K
wonder yeah

07:49.01
alexei sayle
we can only, you know, we can only maybe hope that in that, I would say that moment of greatest triumph is also their moment of greatest defeat. We will see.

07:57.95
Talal K
But isn't it historically that wartime is what makes people just kind of support whoever's in charge or like rally behind their governments?

08:05.69
alexei sayle
Well, yeah, i mean I mean, I think this is exceptional. I know Linda said there was an article in Haaretz yesterday saying that um the young people in in Israel are even more right-wing and reactionary and, you know, ethno-fascist than the older generation, if that is possible.

08:24.55
Talal K
Wow.

08:25.27
alexei sayle
And that that is a dispiriting...

08:31.13
alexei sayle
You know, but i mean and I mean, it's a deliberate policy, obviously, of of the right of Netanyahu to keep Israel in a state of permanent war and and and therefore to and ensure support for them, really.

08:43.96
Talal K
Yeah. Yeah.

08:44.98
alexei sayle
I think it's less true in the United States because it isn't it isn't as, all you know, that I don't know. I mean,

08:54.74
alexei sayle
that, you know, militarism is, is yeah I mean, The United States is not at risk. The United States is doing this out of choice and it's a long way away.

09:06.72
alexei sayle
And I think people i think people i don't feel that. but Well, i ah yeah know polls show that people have not... The fact that is that the United States is bombing Iran um has not led to an absurd patriotism.

09:24.57
Talal K
Yeah, it feels more like a Vietnam than an Iraq this time.

09:24.66
alexei sayle
In fact, it's led to the reverse, really.

09:30.07
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.

09:30.24
Talal K
They they don't have like this 9-11 to hang their ah their reasoning on.

09:30.87
alexei sayle
yeah ma Exactly, yeah. did yeah And they're also, as Gavin Newsom points out, really that they're also, um you know, this is this every miss every half million dollar missile is money that's coming out of their health budget, out of their, you know, i mean i mean theees I mean, I think, I mean, life expectancy is plummeting in the United States.

09:48.21
Talal K
Hmm.

09:56.95
alexei sayle
I mean, i think people are the average Chinese person now lives 20 years longer than the average

09:58.16
Talal K
god

10:03.06
alexei sayle
person in the US. The infrastructure, I imagine, as people tell me, i haven't been there for years, but people tell me you see a lot of really crumbling infrastructure. And again, this is all money that is being spent to aid Israel and in its apartheid, ethnic cleansing ambitions.

10:24.51
alexei sayle
You know, there's millions and millions of dollars, billions, trillions of dollars. being expended money that is clearly coming out of social care and um in the united states to to bolster the aims of this insane ethno-fascist state in the middle east and and um i you know i i i think that ah that again that the the neutral or the right thinking person in the united states would see this really and and and really want to do something about it so it's uh

11:00.69
Talal K
At the beginning, there you know, I was hearing a lot of people saying that this was all just a distraction from the Epstein, you know, malarkey.

11:00.98
alexei sayle
yeah

11:09.27
alexei sayle
Yeah.

11:09.98
Talal K
How much of that do you think is actually behind it?

11:12.79
alexei sayle
I don't... i Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's possible, I think. I don't know how much trouble he's in with that. He certainly...

11:20.77
alexei sayle
he just kind of denies it and sidesteps it. I don't know. I mean, it's certainly a possibility that this is all that that this is all being done or it's partly being done to divert from Epstein.

11:31.06
Talal K
Maybe partly, yeah.

11:31.94
alexei sayle
Yeah.

11:32.54
Talal K
It seems a lot more thought out now that you consider that, you know, they secured the Venezuelan oil in time to start this war in the Middle East. Do you think maybe they were even thinking about it from back then?

11:42.84
alexei sayle
Yeah.

11:46.84
Talal K
I wonder.

11:47.83
alexei sayle
Sometimes an easy win, you know, like the the West had an easy win in Kosovo and then went against the Serbs and then in yeah and in Liberia. and And that led them into the morale, thinking that they would have an easy win in Iraq, which turned out in a sense not to be the case. So ah

12:11.74
alexei sayle
I honestly don't know enough about you guys politics or, you know,

12:15.86
Talal K
my instinct says it's all everything like all roads lead to israel really because like iran iran was the last kind of uh anti-israel stronghold in the middle east all the other arab countries had kowtowed and and

12:19.86
alexei sayle
Yeah.

12:23.70
alexei sayle
Yeah.

12:29.59
alexei sayle
Yes, they've taken out Syria and Libya and Iraq.

12:30.33
Talal K
paid their ties and done their deals with Israel, normalized relations, and Iran were the only one.

12:32.86
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.

12:37.37
Talal K
But what I hate seeing is this um kind of rallying behind the Islamic Republic as if they're some heroes and as if Hezbollah are these heroes and they...

12:45.14
alexei sayle
ah Yeah, it's, yeah, I know. I mean, we we should remind ourselves that, of course, when the the Islamic Revolution, the revolution in 1979 was achieved in association with the, you know, the lot substantial communist and socialist forces, in iran and then once the revolution was once the shah had been deposed khomeini then turned on the on the left and either murdered imprisoned or drove into exile those forces and instead brought in a obviously a hardline theocratic regime so we shouldn't be yeah sometimes i mean i i understand the impulse in a way i'm not you know you know you just

13:11.98
Talal K
Mm-hmm. Yep.

13:29.46
Talal K
Well, Palestine is such an issue that drives, that people's passion drives them behind ah supporting Palestine. And sometimes they're blindsided.

13:36.82
alexei sayle
Yeah.

13:38.18
Talal K
They just see anyone supporting Palestine and think they're automatically a good guy. And really, in this situation, none of the players are good guys apart from the civilians on the ground who are the ones getting bombed, you know.

13:46.74
alexei sayle
No. Yes.

13:50.14
Talal K
So, you know, it's it's it's a really a tricky one, you know.

13:50.33
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean. Yeah, the the the the obviously the is Islamic theocracy and the yeah the Revolutionary Guard Corps and the besieged militia, they're not they're not good people. you know They are people who have been i oppressed in their own...

14:11.96
Talal K
Yeah.

14:13.62
alexei sayle
it's just, you know, yeah and but I do understand that impulse to want to you know, because you see anybody you oppose as the United States and and oppose as Israel and ye kind of want to, you know, you feel sympathetic towards them.

14:20.03
Talal K
Of course.

14:31.65
alexei sayle
But yes, it's a certainly, yeah, blanket support for the regime, you know,

14:37.62
Talal K
Just, yeah, just think more carefully before you throw all your support behind someone. Like you can oppose, like it's more than one thing can be true.

14:42.36
alexei sayle
Yeah.

14:47.46
Talal K
You know, this war is unjust and and this war is illegal and

14:47.96
alexei sayle
Yeah. That means.

14:53.11
Talal K
and Trump and Israel aren't acting on the behalf of of humanity in starting this war. They've got their own fucking interests, but you know the Iranian, and it's Khomeini should never should not be the leader, and it's it's but now it's he's just been replaced by his identical son, which is quite weird to see how copy-paste he seems.

15:02.36
alexei sayle
and Absolutely. Yeah.

15:16.20
Talal K
um like They're not good guys either. and ah And you know what really fucking winds me up is that, oh you know, when you can't help after these two and a half years we've been through, when you see those bombs falling in Tel Aviv, a part of you is kind of like fist pumping the air.

15:21.02
alexei sayle
No, they're not.

15:35.13
alexei sayle
Yes. Yeah.

15:37.08
Talal K
And it then I just catch myself in that brief moment where I feel kind of passion, like I'm happy to see a place being bombed.

15:40.76
alexei sayle
yeah

15:47.29
alexei sayle
Yeah.

15:47.70
Talal K
And then I'm like, how, look what they've made me. Like, I can't, I'm so angry at them for making me enjoy the sight of this.

15:51.16
alexei sayle
Yeah. is Yes, yes.

15:55.03
Talal K
Like how fucking far have they pushed me where I'd i'd never in my life feel like ah the sight of a bomb hitting a city is something to celebrate or be happy about.

15:55.29
alexei sayle
Yes.

15:58.78
alexei sayle
Yes.

16:04.89
alexei sayle
Yeah.

16:06.81
Talal K
And even even if a fraction of me is celebrating the sight of it, it's just it's a horrible feeling.

16:09.62
alexei sayle
Yeah.

16:13.16
alexei sayle
Look what they've turned us into. I know it's true.

16:14.87
Talal K
Yeah. How dare they make me celebrate that?

16:17.69
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:21.02
Talal K
But they their cruelty, you know ah hope that the cruelty of Israel doesn't get forgotten in all of this over the last two years.

16:31.05
alexei sayle
No, well, they kind of seem triumphant, but like I said, I mean, we'll we'll see, really. I don't know. I don't know where this ends. Yeah.

16:42.68
alexei sayle
oh ah I mean, it's interesting interesting developments supposedly that the the Israelis and the United States are organizing a as you know a kind of an incursion by the Kurds in the north, I think.

16:58.55
Talal K
Oh yes, from Iraq, coming in from Iraq.

17:00.86
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, I think the Kurds are obviously aware that, you know, what ah what ah what a two-faced ally that Rojava would have shown them that, you know, that the United States is ah is ah is is not necessarily an ally, that it's very capricious ally and will drop them.

17:01.13
Talal K
They've doing deals.

17:20.08
alexei sayle
Well, in fact, you know, i mean, George W. Bush in Iraq won, urged the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs to rise up and then... ah They were then slaughtered by the forces of Saddam Hussein, so a like i'm I'm sure the Kurds understand that. I don't know which brand of Kurdish fighters it is who are being encouraged to to attack. whether I don't know whether it's our guys in in the in the root in in the PKK or whether it's some more right-wing Kurdish factions.

17:56.57
alexei sayle
Maybe an expert can... um We know many, many experts of, you know, geopolitics that this is podcast is their first listening on a Saturday morning, the Chatham House and the various, in you know, the CIA, you know, the intelligence services and...

18:07.31
Talal K
Well,

18:15.86
alexei sayle
that they choose they they eagerly download our podcast and analyze it for the insights that it brings. And so if one of those wants to even anonymously, if one of those wants to contact us with further information about that, we would be delighted to hear it.

18:37.94
Talal K
They seem to be perhaps the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan.

18:45.50
alexei sayle
Right, I mean...

18:45.94
Talal K
Between 25 and 35 million Kurds inhabit a mountainous region straddling the borders of Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and um Armenia. That's a lot more than I thought.

18:57.53
alexei sayle
Yeah.

18:57.85
Talal K
um And in the last, or just today, Iran has been increasing, intensifying attacks on the region. um But they've been...

19:10.74
alexei sayle
Yeah, so there's ah there's a kind of, know, there's a mindfuck there where, you know, you do you support in that scenario, really? that Obviously, the kids are being used as a tool of US and Israeli imperialism, but on the other hand, you know.

19:22.07
Talal K
Yes, but they have a reason to be so bitter and vengeful because they've suffered decades of discrimination and repression.

19:24.50
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, if they're, yeah, Yes. Yes.

19:33.08
Talal K
you know The Kurds have been wanting independence for a long, long, long, long long long long long time.

19:36.12
alexei sayle
ah From literally everybody, yes. I mean, not just from Iran. I don't know how they were treated in Iran, but obviously from Turkey and...

19:39.83
Talal K
Oh, from every angle.

19:43.90
Talal K
So I wonder, yeah, Trump maybe promised them their own little state, part they could have a slice of Iran.

19:47.42
alexei sayle
Yeah, I wonder whether they're followers of Ocalan, in which case we would support them, or whether they're some more centrist or right-wing Kurdish fighters.

20:02.90
alexei sayle
Again, anybody, you know, I know that this podcast is eagerly downloaded on a Saturday morning in all the major capitals of the world and in all the revolutionary bases that the people in Rojava have.

20:16.73
alexei sayle
on a saturday morning gather around their laptops to listen and then in the um the free areas of myanmar on a saturday morning it's uh it's obligatory really to listen to this podcast yes that's one of the things i i feel i felt a bit guilty there i was just reaching for something i was reprimanded by a listener i i was re i was trying

20:28.37
Talal K
Mm-hmm. On their wind-up radios.

20:41.46
alexei sayle
you yeah You and Anthony, I tell my Nick, we're just talking. too I just wanted to inject a piece of stupidity into the discourse there. So I was just had that bit about the wind-up radio in my mind, and it didn't really work. And I apologise, yes, to the memory of Sir Trevor Bayliss. I'm sure that um you could listen to it over. The the clockwork didn't really make a noise.

21:07.86
alexei sayle
And it was just an entirely maladroit intervention on my part.

21:12.02
Talal K
I don't think you need to over explain that's the listener taking a bit a bit too seriously

21:13.88
alexei sayle
Yeah.

21:18.33
alexei sayle
oh no I want no i feel you know. I want to walk it i want to walk it back. really I'm sure the the clockwork radio was... ah You know.

21:26.20
Talal K
Yes, he was saying actually actually the Clockwork Radio liberated the accessibility for um world media for a lot of...

21:31.09
alexei sayle
Yeah.

21:35.22
alexei sayle
Yeah. Maybe you could have a clockwork laptop. I don't know what hour what how technically...

21:42.30
Talal K
I remember around the similar time, there was an equivalent thing for a laptop.

21:42.46
alexei sayle
Clockwork. Clockwork iPhone. Yeah.

21:47.50
Talal K
I think Bill Gates pioneered, and I could be wrong there, maybe it wasn't Bill Gates, but there was this kind of like really cheap laptop that like...

21:50.34
alexei sayle
Right.

21:55.22
Talal K
did the fucking job and they made millions of them and gave them to school kids all around Africa.

21:59.13
alexei sayle
Right. That wasn't like the Raspberry, that one, was it?

22:00.73
Talal K
And there were these nice little, no, it was just a nice little plastic thing with a screen.

22:05.34
alexei sayle
Yeah.

22:06.54
Talal K
Raspberry, I think, doesn't have a screen. That's just the computer bit that you can attach to stuff.

22:08.44
alexei sayle
No, it doesn't. It's just the insides. Yeah. Yeah.

22:11.83
Talal K
um And I think it was the laptop equivalent of the wind-up radio, but he obviously you had to plug it in.

22:18.49
alexei sayle
Yeah.

22:18.74
Talal K
think it had a chargeable battery in it.

22:21.08
alexei sayle
Right. Well, I'd be interested to know what's happened to that. know that this podcast is on a Saturday morning, the major technical institutions, MIT in the United States, Boston, that on a Saturday morning people gather around and download this podcast. It's the first thing they do on a Saturday morning.

22:40.91
alexei sayle
Um, even with the five, the time difference. And so, um, if anybody there in, um, in the Institute, science Institute in Moscow or Beijing, uh, we listened to this podcast first thing they do on a Saturday morning. Uh, if, uh, they could, they want to get in touch and let us know what the state of play is with the, uh, wind up cockwork laptop. I'd be, uh, eager to know.

23:09.14
alexei sayle
And like a like a clockwork radio, I have now wound down.

23:09.40
Talal K
please

23:14.01
alexei sayle
That got me through about, what, 15 minutes, bit more. And I'm kind of like like a clockwork soldier in a ballet, Bolshoi Ballet.

23:30.30
alexei sayle
I kind of...

23:31.15
Talal K
I've just found a, uh, maybe it wasn't Bill Gates. I just found an article of Bill Gates saying the, uh, laptop for the poor is a joke and he was mocking the $100 laptop.

23:42.68
alexei sayle
Really? Yeah. Yeah.

23:44.34
Talal K
Was it this $100 laptop developed by MIT? I wanna find more of it. I remember the picture of it in my head so clearly.

23:56.92
alexei sayle
yeah

23:58.97
Talal K
Yes.

24:01.59
Talal K
One laptop per child foundation. The $100 laptop is the iconic XO laptop ah founded by Nicholas Negroponte of the MIT Media Lab in 2005, designed for education in developing nations.

24:12.61
alexei sayle
Right. All

24:19.09
Talal K
It was a rugged, low-power device intended for children. Yeah, it's got a simple black and white screen and you could do all your homework on it. And it was rugged, like you could throw it out rock and it would survive.

24:30.06
alexei sayle
right.

24:32.41
Talal K
And it would network, it would mesh, had a mesh networking that connected with other laptops. So the whole classroom could be connected to the same network easily. Yeah, one laptop per child.

24:42.81
alexei sayle
probably... Bill Gates probably sabotaged didn't he, if he was against it?

24:47.16
Talal K
Bill Gates hated it. He was roasting it. What an asshole.

24:52.15
alexei sayle
Yeah, well, yeah. You get no argument from me about that, yeah? Bill Gates. Bloody Bill Gates.

25:00.12
Talal K
Oh my God. Guess what?

25:02.63
alexei sayle
What?

25:05.02
Talal K
There was a second generation prototype and it had a crank on it that charged it.

25:05.13
alexei sayle
No, what?

25:07.93
alexei sayle
Yeah. Oh, it was clockwork.

25:12.89
Talal K
But it proved unviable.

25:15.16
alexei sayle
Yeah.

25:15.77
Talal K
ah

25:19.74
alexei sayle
Well...

25:19.90
Talal K
One laptop per child.

25:23.38
alexei sayle
Bill Gates didn't want that. He just wanted to... His intellectual property.

25:33.88
alexei sayle
So anyway, that's the world situation. Have we covered that? Or we could go back. would say it was very exciting, the Greens and Zach Polanski and you now Jeremy...

25:41.94
Talal K
They were very quick to say, to blame it on, what did they say, sectarianism?

25:47.45
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah. Which is just bullshit. I mean, it's obviously