INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child

INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the

INTRO: organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young

INTRO: people safe.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Podcast.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm Shirley Maginley, one of the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC's senior safeguarding

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: consultants, and I'll be hosting this

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: episode of the podcast which is all

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: about the concept of contextual

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm delighted to be joined by

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Director of the Global Centre for

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Contextual Safeguarding at Durham

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: University to talk about this topic.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene coined the term 'contextual

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding' back in 2014 to

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: describe an approach to safeguarding

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: children that looks at additional

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: context of harm outside of the family

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: home and beyond the control of a

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: child's parents and carers.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene, thank you so much for

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: joining us today.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you for having me, Shirley.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Now, Carlene, the term has been

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around for a few years now, but for

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: those who might be hearing this term

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: 'contextual safeguarding' for the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: first time, or are less familiar with

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the concept, what exactly is

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: There's a very basic way of explaining it

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and a slightly more detailed one,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so I'll have a go at both.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In terms of the more basic

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way, it came about because I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was reviewing cases where

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children had come to significant

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm in contexts beyond their

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family homes: in their friendship

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: groups, in their schools and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in public spaces.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I found that social workers

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and the partnerships that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they worked with largely

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focused on assessing their

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and them as

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individuals to get a sense of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: risk, rather than the context

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where the harm was actually occurring.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So contextual safeguarding, I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: first coined as a term, to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: say: if we want to respond to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: these types of harms like

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sexual and criminal exploitation

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or violence between young

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, peer-to-peer abuse or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abuse in their own

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationships, we need a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding response that targets

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context where that harm

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually occurs which is

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: often context beyond the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family; which was not at the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time the focus of social work

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment and planning.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's a kind of very basic

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one. The actual development

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it, which I'm sure we'll talk about,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: converted that big picture

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: idea into a four-part

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework. So now when we use

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the term 'contextual safeguarding',

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we're talking about the four-part framework.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very good.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: One of the things that really stands

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: out in contextual safeguarding is, I

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: think, how it widens our focus beyond

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what's happening in that family home.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And in my work with professionals

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: across different communities,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: including faith communities and

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: minoritised ethnic communities and

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: other settings as well, I often hear

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people say that families are doing

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: their very best.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Yet still many don't fully understand

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the risk that young people face

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outside of their home, whether that's

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: through peer groups or schools

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or community environments,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and now, you know, online spaces.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, with this in mind, why is it

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: so important to consider these

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different contexts?

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And how did they affect children's

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: risk of abuse?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well, the reality is as young

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people grow up they spend

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time in many more contexts

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without parental supervision.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Now my children are still

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: quite young so most of the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time that I'm with them,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're either under the care

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of the nursery workers that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we've selected or they're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with me or a family member.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so the friends that they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend their time with I choose —

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: generally the ones whose parents

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I get on best with — and I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have quite a contained way of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: thinking about their safety.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Even when their safety is

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discharged to the responsibility

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of people like my mum, that's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in my control. I've put my

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child with my mum, or I've

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: put my children in that nursery,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so the things that they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: may experience in those contexts

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: also I have influence over.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas when young people are

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: growing up, they're spending more

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and more time in contexts where

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents have far less

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence. We don't choose

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their friends for them, we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: don't have much influence over

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what happens on the journey

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to and from school.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't have as much influence

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in the high streets, and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: certainly not in the online spaces

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And even in school, we're much

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less present there. We're not doing

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the pick-up and drop-off.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We're as involved with the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents of their friends.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, parents have a really reduced

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: level of influence.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And rightly so, because that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is the nature of human development.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Young people are growing up to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: become independent adults and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so there's a natural

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: progression there that happens.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That means that we rely, as

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents, on a wide network of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other adults to support our

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people to be safe; the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: adults who are in the places

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and spaces where they're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spending their time without

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whether that is the youth

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: workers that them and their friends

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: encounter when they socialise

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without us, or whether that's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the security staff in the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: shopping centres, or the bus

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers that drive the buses, all

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of these people will to impact the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of our young people,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so we can't rely just on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents to protect them when

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are teenagers.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Absolutely.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Before you mentioned that contextual

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding now has four parts.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Can you just walk us through that —

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what they are and how they fit together?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: When we go into an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: organisation or a team, or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: even when we look at individual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice, we're looking for

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: four things as a sign that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding is

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present. The first thing we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ask is, what is this practice

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: targeting?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The target in a contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach is the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context where the harm

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happens. So we don't just see

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a child in context, we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actively target that context.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We identify it, we assess it,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we respond to it in order

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to change what's happening in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that park or shopping centre

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or friendship group or school.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's the first bit. The

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: second bit is the legislative

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: basis of the work and how we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: frame it. So, contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is underpinned

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by child protection and child

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare legislation

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: predominantly.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We are focused on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare, promoting their

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wellbeing, and through that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: therefore we're focusing on their

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs first and foremost.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often in this area, people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can prioritise crime and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: offending and risk and forget

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about children's needs.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In contextual safeguarding,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we prioritise needs and one

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way to do that is to address

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their experiences of crime,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but we can address young people's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: experiences of crime and leave

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them with unmet need — so

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: need has to be the driving

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focus of the work.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The third part of the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework are the partnerships

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that bring it to life.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Contextual safeguarding requires

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partnerships with young

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, their families and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wider communities, and with

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those various social actors I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mentioned before who have an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence in those contexts

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where young people are.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So if the harm is happening

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at school, school leadership,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: pastoral care, teachers,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents at the school, other

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: students, staff that come

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into the school from outside agencies

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — they would all be the partners

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in that response.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas if the harm was happening

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a park, it might be dog

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: walkers, parks and recreation

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, waste management

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services that become the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners. It would vary

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context by context, but the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners are those that can impact

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context. And the final

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: part of the approach is the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcomes it's pursuing.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't just want to know if

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the child is any safer as a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the response, we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to know if the park they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were assaulted in is any

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safer, or have we taken one

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child out and another child

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: has taken their place because

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the park remains unsafe.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So they are the four parts of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the framework: the target of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context, with a focus on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs and welfare,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in partnership with those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that can influence that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context, and where you

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure your impact

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextually.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very thorough, very thorough.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's good to have that framework in a

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: very, you know... it cuts across a

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: lot of different areas, but in a very

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: simplified manner so people can

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: understand where you start from and

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you want to end up.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: But having a framework is one thing,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: making it work across different

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people and organisations, I would

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: imagine is a different thing.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, I'm interested in your thoughts

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around how best

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we can manage those different partnerships,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: whether it's between the agencies or

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the schools or the parks or the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different communities. And how do you

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: get everyone on board?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's definitely not an easy

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: piece of work to do.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I've recently written a paper

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called 'Why is common sense

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so complicated?' Because a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lot of people think that contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is quite 'common

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense'. You know, if a child is

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abused in a park, you should respond

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to the park. But doing that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is actually quite complicated

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a system that was never

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: designed for that purpose.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, turning that four-part

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework into a reality has

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been a decade-long exercise

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: up until now and will continue

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be so, I'm sure, for many

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: years ahead. Some of the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things that we found useful —

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we've worked with now

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over 90 local authorities

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across England, Wales and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Scotland as well as a range

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of voluntary sector organisations

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and schools who are using the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding framework

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — and we found some kind of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: core features of practice

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that we see wherever people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: are trying to do this work.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: One of the ways that they get

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody on board is through

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a practice that we call

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'context weighting' and we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have lots of resources on the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to guide people through how

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to do context weighting.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But it is, in essence, a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussion between anyone

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who's involved in the response

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to ask "which context is the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one where this child is safest

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and which context is where

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are least safe." So,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: weighting the influence of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different contexts. And

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: having those discussions at

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different points in the planning process

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: really helps people get on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: board, particularly people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who might be further away

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from safeguarding systems or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not always understand what

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role might be in providing

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also found that when

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessing a context, that's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the best way to get people involved.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, kind of, blanket training

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of shopkeepers and taxi

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers and hoteliers — it's really

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: hard for them to understand what

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role could possibly be

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in safeguarding children.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But if you do have a concern

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about a young person in a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: public space or in a school,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and you then assess that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place, you have to speak to those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people. We've seen surveys of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: residents, of business

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: owners, shopkeepers,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: transport hubs, with a plan:

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: "okay, we've got a concern about the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of young people in this area,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what do you think you could do

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to create safety for them or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them?" And those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: concrete actions can be a way

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of getting those wider partnerships

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on board and we've absolutely

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: seen that come to life.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Starting small, one context

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at a time, until you get a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense of what would this look

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like if we mainstream that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across our system.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And in that process, context

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by time, you get those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners on board.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Sounds like a lot of relationship

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: building.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And yes, partnership is necessary.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's not just a nice to have, but it

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: is absolutely needed for contextual

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding to have any impact and

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: benefits.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, it makes it even more important

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to understand, you know, how do you

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: measure the progress of all of that?

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Do you use any particular indicators

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or tools in your practice to monitor

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the outcomes of success?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We do use different tools and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: indicators to monitor the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcome of success, although I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would say it's slightly

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: challenging in the sense that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we don't really have very good measures

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for monitoring success in our

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: traditional child protection

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: system; so we don't really

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have much to compare it to in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: terms of outcomes.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But for contextual safeguarding,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we do encourage a focus on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: three things when we're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: responding to either context

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or individual children who

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were unsafe in those contexts.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We encourage consideration of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, what do children and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need in that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context or what does this

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual child need and are

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those needs being met?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so a measure of success

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would be any increase in the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ability of services to meet

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people's needs.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In the field of extra-familial

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm, we often see unmet

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs in respect of access to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safe education — they might

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have been offered an education place

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but they're not safe when they're there

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or on their journey there.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A timely diagnosis in regards

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of neurodivergence or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: learning needs is often an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unmet need for these children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and young people.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Safe time with their friends

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is often an unmet need.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, focusing plans around

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: meeting children's needs is a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good way of measuring

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: success. The second way is

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a concept we call

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'community guardianship' or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'guardianship capacity'.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So instead of just assessing

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a parent's capacity to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard a child, we consider

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody's collective

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: capacity to safeguard

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children, which includes

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their parents and carers, but

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: isn't just about their

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and carers. So, we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to measure children and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people's access to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trusted adults in any context

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, we don't just mean

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the adults we think are trusted,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we mean that young people say

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they have access to adults

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that they trust.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, if that is not

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present in a context where

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're unsafe, then a focus

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be building community

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guardianship in those contexts

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until we get to a point that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people report that they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do identify adults that they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trust. And the third set of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures relate to any environmental

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or community factors that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: undermine safety in any given

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context. Sometimes they can

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be quite simple things to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: resolve, like a lack of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact between parents of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people who are friends, and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: supporting greater

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: collaboration between those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents can build safety

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a friendship group.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Or it may be design features

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a local area that reduce

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: visibility, or an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over-surveillance of children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and an under-provision of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: protective relationships in a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: locality can drive children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: out of areas where they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be safe and into

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spaces where we can't see

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them and where they are

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe. So addressing those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: types of issues, wider

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental factors, are also

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good measures of safety.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You'll notice that what I'm talking

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about are quite qualitative

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures of safety.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We wouldn't consider something

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like a reduction in truancy a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure of safety, unless we

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understood the context in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which truancy had reduced.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In one of the cases I

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: reviewed early on in contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding, a young person

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was truanting from school and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it was the only behaviour he

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was displaying that raised

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: any concerns. And so schools

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had been trying to manage

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that internally, largely

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: using sanctions that were ineffective,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until they contacted children's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and it turned out he

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a sibling with a disability,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and it was believed that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: maybe things were a bit

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: chaotic at home and that's why

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he was always late and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: struggling to focus in school.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The family said that wasn't an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: issue but that was the priority

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention from children's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and so that was the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention offered.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: His behaviour didn't change

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in school. There was then a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: threat to find his family for not

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: getting him into education

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he started to come in on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time every day and stayed in lessons

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: while he was there.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a measure of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: effectiveness being a reduction

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in truancy, the most effective

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention would have been the threat

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to fine. I unfortunately was

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called in to review his case

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a number of months later

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because he had been sexually

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and physically assaulted by a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group of young people from his

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school — although the assault

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happened in the community —

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he then said that he'd

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been coming in late every day because

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he waited for everyone to be

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in classrooms before he came

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into school. And he waited

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for teachers to be in those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: classrooms before he'd go into

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them. And then, if he'd needed

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to use the toilet during

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school time, he'd use the toilet

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in lesson time rather than at

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the breaktime because if he used

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the toilets in the breaktime, he

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was assaulted in the toilets.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So for him, a reduction in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: truancy actually meant an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase in risk. We didn't

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understand the context in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which he was truanting and address

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that. So a goal would

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually need to be that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school was a safe place for him

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be, not just that he

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attended. So it is really

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: important, albeit tricky, to contextualise

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: our outcome measures and to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: prioritise children's safety

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over and above counting

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: numbers.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's a very, very thorough approach

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and it's good that you have those in

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: three different sections and parts.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for that, because

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we know — you know, in my work at the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC — we know that measuring impact

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: can often be the hardest part of a

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: project.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: We love to do the work that leads up

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to it and then we have to measure the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outcome. So it's great that you have

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: this very, very thorough approach to

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: it. But sometimes we know the

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: clearest way of understanding that

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: impact is through real life examples,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and thank you so much for sharing

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: that example with us of that young

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: person. But do you think you might be

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: able to give us another example, of

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding working well

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: in practice?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Yes, absolutely.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, we often hear in the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: space of extra-familial harm

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that one of the proposed

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions is to move children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into care and often to move

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them a distance away from

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their home local authority;

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not because they're unsafe at

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: home, but because they are unsafe in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their local community,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sometimes to secure children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on welfare grounds for up to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: six months at a time for the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: same reason. And there may be

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: occasion where that is the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: absolute only solution for a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child. But often those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions are put in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place because people cannot

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: think about how to build safety

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around that child locally and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: haven't thought about contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've seen some changes in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that respect in some local

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: areas. In one site we were

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: working with, there was a proposal

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to move five children out of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a hostel — five 16- to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 17-year-olds where they were

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: living — because of concerns

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around criminal exploitation,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to move them into separate

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: accommodations. They did not

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to be moved and felt

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that if they were moved they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would run away from those

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placements because they wanted to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend time with each other.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, social workers used an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment of the friendship

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group, and of the hostel and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the surrounding area, to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guide a plan. The assessment

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: found that there was actually

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: little to no risk within that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: friendship group, and actually it

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was a very safe group,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provided emotional wellbeing

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to each other as well as physical

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety and protection, and it

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would have been a risk to split

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them up, so advocated for

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them to be kept together.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Instead, funding was found to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provide activities for them

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do safely together and for

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: two of them to have additional specialist

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: support in respect of drug

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and alcohol use.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A named police officer was identified

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to work with the hostel around

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: missing episodes, rather than

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lots of different police officers

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attending the provision,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which was causing

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficulties in the relationship

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: between the young people and the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: police. The hostel workers

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were supported with training, particularly

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around adolescent development,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to understand when behaviours

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were an indicator of risk and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where behaviours were just normal

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: developmentally expected

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: behaviours for young people,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to therefore be able to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be much more protective adults

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and foster more positive relationships

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with the young people who

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were living there. Some local

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: business owners were also

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: brought into the professional network,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who those young people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: identified as people that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they trusted, who could

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact professionals if they

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a concern about those young people,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but also those young people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: could go to if they were out

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and about and felt unsafe.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And then work was also done,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work in the professional

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: network, because things had

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: broken down quite a bit and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: there was a lot of blame between

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: statutory agencies which was

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: producing blockages in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So that combined plan was the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the location and peer

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment, and was offered as an

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: alternative to the distance

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placement which would have separated

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those young people from each other.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We see that type of planning

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: all the time. That was

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively complex planning.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Some more basic plans have

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: included supporting

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual children and young

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people back into education;

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work with

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: schools, social care,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: policing and families to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: build trust back in to the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship, to allow children

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to attend; and particularly to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase their timetables beyond

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things like 45 minutes a day,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they're not excluded

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from school but they're also not in

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: education for very long and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so they're out and about,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsupervised, and can be

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: exploited.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a range from complex to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively simplistic planning,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but all that prioritise

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs, the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: development of guardianship

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them and addressing any

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental or system

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: factors that get in the way of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their safety.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for sharing that.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And I see, in both of those examples,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: keeping that child focus is so

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: important.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Absolutely. Contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding really is about

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keeping children at the heart

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and one of the issues we've seen,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because of the pressure on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, is often we can

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lose sight of what children and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people actually need from

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us and plans reflect much

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: more what organisations need,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: rather than what children and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So it is sometimes challenging

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to adopt contextual safeguarding

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because it requires a sense

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of humility within services

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to really reflect on whether

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what they're doing is actually

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: helping children or whether

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it just makes us look like we're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing something which is better

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: than nothing, in case something

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: goes wrong. Those really

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficult questions and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussions often sit at the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: heart of contextual safeguarding

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: implementation.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And Carlene, just another question before

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we end.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: A lot of work we do, a lot of

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: organisations, community organisations,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: youth organisations come to us

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: because they have had direct contact

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: with young people, and often they

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: depend a lot on volunteers.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: They don't have a lot of professionals

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around or huge funding.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So what part can they play in this

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding journey?

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well all adults that have a

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship with children and young

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people can play a part in the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: road to contextual safeguarding,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because right at the centre

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it is relationships.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often they're the things that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keep children and people safest,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and they will be the things

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are utilised when

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children are unsafe.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's really important for

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: voluntary sector organisations to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: know if they operate in areas

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are adopting a contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach and you

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can normally find that out by

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: going on the websites of local

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's partnerships —

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or, if you're in Wales,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's safeguarding boards

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — to identify whether they're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing that and therefore whether,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for example, if children and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people are raising concerns

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to you about contexts that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're having to travel through

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to get to a youth club, that

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: you can flag those contexts

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with your local children's

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services department.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also seen voluntary

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sector organisations do

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety summits or safety

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping with the young people

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that use their services.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You know, printing out maps of the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: local area and mapping where

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people feel safe or

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe, and using that to

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lobby local partners for

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: improved responses.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I'd just say, anything that you

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: try to do around contextual

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding in the early days,

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it's important to do it with

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people and

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to collaborate with them; you're

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less likely to make a mistake.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But also we have a range of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: free resources on the

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to support any activities

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that. As I've mentioned

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: already we have resources on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context weighting but we also

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have resources on safety

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping and safety summits.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We have templates for policy

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: documents and a range of

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other activities that you can

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: run with volunteers on

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: training days, and other things

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that to support your

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ongoing learning on this

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: topic.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Really helpful to know.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It feels like a good place to end our

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: conversation today.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much to my guest,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, for joining

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us today.

PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: If you'd like to find out more about

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding and Carlene's

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: work, please visit the Global Centre

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: for Contextual Safeguarding website,

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you'll find a range of

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: articles, toolkits, and other

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: resources — there will be a link in

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the podcast shownotes below.

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you again, Carlene, for joining

SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us, and thank you for listening.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

OUTRO: Podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content

OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding

OUTRO: and child protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

OUTRO: our website for professionals at

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.