INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child
INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the
INTRO: organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young
INTRO: people safe.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Podcast.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm Shirley Maginley, one of the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC's senior safeguarding
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: consultants, and I'll be hosting this
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: episode of the podcast which is all
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: about the concept of contextual
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm delighted to be joined by
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Director of the Global Centre for
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Contextual Safeguarding at Durham
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: University to talk about this topic.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene coined the term 'contextual
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding' back in 2014 to
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: describe an approach to safeguarding
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: children that looks at additional
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: context of harm outside of the family
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: home and beyond the control of a
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: child's parents and carers.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene, thank you so much for
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: joining us today.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you for having me, Shirley.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Now, Carlene, the term has been
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around for a few years now, but for
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: those who might be hearing this term
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: 'contextual safeguarding' for the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: first time, or are less familiar with
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the concept, what exactly is
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: There's a very basic way of explaining it
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and a slightly more detailed one,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so I'll have a go at both.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In terms of the more basic
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way, it came about because I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was reviewing cases where
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children had come to significant
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm in contexts beyond their
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family homes: in their friendship
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: groups, in their schools and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in public spaces.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I found that social workers
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and the partnerships that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they worked with largely
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focused on assessing their
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and them as
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individuals to get a sense of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: risk, rather than the context
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where the harm was actually occurring.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So contextual safeguarding, I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: first coined as a term, to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: say: if we want to respond to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: these types of harms like
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sexual and criminal exploitation
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or violence between young
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, peer-to-peer abuse or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abuse in their own
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationships, we need a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding response that targets
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context where that harm
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually occurs which is
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: often context beyond the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family; which was not at the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time the focus of social work
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment and planning.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's a kind of very basic
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one. The actual development
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it, which I'm sure we'll talk about,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: converted that big picture
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: idea into a four-part
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework. So now when we use
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the term 'contextual safeguarding',
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we're talking about the four-part framework.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very good.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: One of the things that really stands
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: out in contextual safeguarding is, I
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: think, how it widens our focus beyond
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what's happening in that family home.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And in my work with professionals
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: across different communities,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: including faith communities and
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: minoritised ethnic communities and
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: other settings as well, I often hear
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people say that families are doing
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: their very best.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Yet still many don't fully understand
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the risk that young people face
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outside of their home, whether that's
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: through peer groups or schools
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or community environments,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and now, you know, online spaces.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, with this in mind, why is it
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: so important to consider these
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different contexts?
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And how did they affect children's
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: risk of abuse?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well, the reality is as young
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people grow up they spend
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time in many more contexts
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without parental supervision.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Now my children are still
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: quite young so most of the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time that I'm with them,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're either under the care
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of the nursery workers that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we've selected or they're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with me or a family member.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so the friends that they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend their time with I choose —
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: generally the ones whose parents
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I get on best with — and I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have quite a contained way of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: thinking about their safety.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Even when their safety is
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discharged to the responsibility
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of people like my mum, that's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in my control. I've put my
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child with my mum, or I've
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: put my children in that nursery,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so the things that they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: may experience in those contexts
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: also I have influence over.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas when young people are
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: growing up, they're spending more
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and more time in contexts where
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents have far less
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence. We don't choose
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their friends for them, we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: don't have much influence over
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what happens on the journey
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to and from school.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't have as much influence
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in the high streets, and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: certainly not in the online spaces
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And even in school, we're much
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less present there. We're not doing
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the pick-up and drop-off.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We're as involved with the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents of their friends.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, parents have a really reduced
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: level of influence.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And rightly so, because that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is the nature of human development.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Young people are growing up to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: become independent adults and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so there's a natural
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: progression there that happens.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That means that we rely, as
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents, on a wide network of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other adults to support our
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people to be safe; the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: adults who are in the places
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and spaces where they're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spending their time without
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whether that is the youth
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: workers that them and their friends
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: encounter when they socialise
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without us, or whether that's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the security staff in the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: shopping centres, or the bus
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers that drive the buses, all
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of these people will to impact the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of our young people,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so we can't rely just on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents to protect them when
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are teenagers.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Absolutely.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Before you mentioned that contextual
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding now has four parts.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Can you just walk us through that —
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what they are and how they fit together?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: When we go into an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: organisation or a team, or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: even when we look at individual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice, we're looking for
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: four things as a sign that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding is
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present. The first thing we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ask is, what is this practice
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: targeting?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The target in a contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach is the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context where the harm
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happens. So we don't just see
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a child in context, we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actively target that context.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We identify it, we assess it,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we respond to it in order
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to change what's happening in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that park or shopping centre
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or friendship group or school.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's the first bit. The
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: second bit is the legislative
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: basis of the work and how we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: frame it. So, contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is underpinned
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by child protection and child
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare legislation
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: predominantly.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We are focused on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare, promoting their
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wellbeing, and through that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: therefore we're focusing on their
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs first and foremost.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often in this area, people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can prioritise crime and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: offending and risk and forget
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about children's needs.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In contextual safeguarding,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we prioritise needs and one
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way to do that is to address
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their experiences of crime,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but we can address young people's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: experiences of crime and leave
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them with unmet need — so
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: need has to be the driving
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focus of the work.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The third part of the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework are the partnerships
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that bring it to life.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Contextual safeguarding requires
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partnerships with young
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, their families and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wider communities, and with
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those various social actors I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mentioned before who have an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence in those contexts
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where young people are.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So if the harm is happening
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at school, school leadership,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: pastoral care, teachers,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents at the school, other
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: students, staff that come
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into the school from outside agencies
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — they would all be the partners
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in that response.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas if the harm was happening
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a park, it might be dog
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: walkers, parks and recreation
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, waste management
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services that become the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners. It would vary
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context by context, but the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners are those that can impact
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context. And the final
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: part of the approach is the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcomes it's pursuing.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't just want to know if
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the child is any safer as a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the response, we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to know if the park they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were assaulted in is any
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safer, or have we taken one
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child out and another child
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: has taken their place because
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the park remains unsafe.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So they are the four parts of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the framework: the target of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context, with a focus on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs and welfare,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in partnership with those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that can influence that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context, and where you
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure your impact
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextually.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very thorough, very thorough.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's good to have that framework in a
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: very, you know... it cuts across a
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: lot of different areas, but in a very
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: simplified manner so people can
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: understand where you start from and
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you want to end up.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: But having a framework is one thing,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: making it work across different
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people and organisations, I would
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: imagine is a different thing.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, I'm interested in your thoughts
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around how best
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we can manage those different partnerships,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: whether it's between the agencies or
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the schools or the parks or the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different communities. And how do you
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: get everyone on board?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's definitely not an easy
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: piece of work to do.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I've recently written a paper
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called 'Why is common sense
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so complicated?' Because a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lot of people think that contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is quite 'common
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense'. You know, if a child is
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abused in a park, you should respond
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to the park. But doing that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is actually quite complicated
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a system that was never
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: designed for that purpose.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, turning that four-part
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework into a reality has
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been a decade-long exercise
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: up until now and will continue
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be so, I'm sure, for many
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: years ahead. Some of the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things that we found useful —
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we've worked with now
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over 90 local authorities
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across England, Wales and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Scotland as well as a range
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of voluntary sector organisations
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and schools who are using the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding framework
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — and we found some kind of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: core features of practice
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that we see wherever people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: are trying to do this work.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: One of the ways that they get
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody on board is through
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a practice that we call
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'context weighting' and we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have lots of resources on the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to guide people through how
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to do context weighting.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But it is, in essence, a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussion between anyone
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who's involved in the response
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to ask "which context is the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one where this child is safest
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and which context is where
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are least safe." So,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: weighting the influence of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different contexts. And
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: having those discussions at
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different points in the planning process
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: really helps people get on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: board, particularly people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who might be further away
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from safeguarding systems or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not always understand what
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role might be in providing
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also found that when
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessing a context, that's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the best way to get people involved.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, kind of, blanket training
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of shopkeepers and taxi
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers and hoteliers — it's really
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: hard for them to understand what
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role could possibly be
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in safeguarding children.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But if you do have a concern
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about a young person in a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: public space or in a school,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and you then assess that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place, you have to speak to those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people. We've seen surveys of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: residents, of business
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: owners, shopkeepers,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: transport hubs, with a plan:
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: "okay, we've got a concern about the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of young people in this area,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what do you think you could do
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to create safety for them or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them?" And those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: concrete actions can be a way
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of getting those wider partnerships
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on board and we've absolutely
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: seen that come to life.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Starting small, one context
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at a time, until you get a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense of what would this look
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like if we mainstream that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across our system.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And in that process, context
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by time, you get those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners on board.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Sounds like a lot of relationship
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: building.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And yes, partnership is necessary.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's not just a nice to have, but it
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: is absolutely needed for contextual
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding to have any impact and
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: benefits.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, it makes it even more important
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to understand, you know, how do you
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: measure the progress of all of that?
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Do you use any particular indicators
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or tools in your practice to monitor
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the outcomes of success?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We do use different tools and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: indicators to monitor the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcome of success, although I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would say it's slightly
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: challenging in the sense that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we don't really have very good measures
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for monitoring success in our
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: traditional child protection
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: system; so we don't really
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have much to compare it to in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: terms of outcomes.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But for contextual safeguarding,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we do encourage a focus on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: three things when we're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: responding to either context
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or individual children who
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were unsafe in those contexts.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We encourage consideration of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, what do children and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need in that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context or what does this
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual child need and are
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those needs being met?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so a measure of success
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would be any increase in the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ability of services to meet
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people's needs.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In the field of extra-familial
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm, we often see unmet
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs in respect of access to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safe education — they might
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have been offered an education place
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but they're not safe when they're there
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or on their journey there.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A timely diagnosis in regards
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of neurodivergence or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: learning needs is often an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unmet need for these children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and young people.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Safe time with their friends
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is often an unmet need.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, focusing plans around
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: meeting children's needs is a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good way of measuring
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: success. The second way is
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a concept we call
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'community guardianship' or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'guardianship capacity'.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So instead of just assessing
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a parent's capacity to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard a child, we consider
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody's collective
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: capacity to safeguard
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children, which includes
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their parents and carers, but
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: isn't just about their
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and carers. So, we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to measure children and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people's access to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trusted adults in any context
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, we don't just mean
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the adults we think are trusted,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we mean that young people say
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they have access to adults
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that they trust.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, if that is not
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present in a context where
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're unsafe, then a focus
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be building community
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guardianship in those contexts
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until we get to a point that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people report that they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do identify adults that they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trust. And the third set of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures relate to any environmental
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or community factors that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: undermine safety in any given
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context. Sometimes they can
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be quite simple things to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: resolve, like a lack of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact between parents of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people who are friends, and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: supporting greater
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: collaboration between those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents can build safety
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a friendship group.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Or it may be design features
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a local area that reduce
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: visibility, or an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over-surveillance of children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and an under-provision of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: protective relationships in a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: locality can drive children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: out of areas where they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be safe and into
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spaces where we can't see
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them and where they are
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe. So addressing those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: types of issues, wider
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental factors, are also
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good measures of safety.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You'll notice that what I'm talking
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about are quite qualitative
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures of safety.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We wouldn't consider something
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like a reduction in truancy a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure of safety, unless we
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understood the context in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which truancy had reduced.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In one of the cases I
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: reviewed early on in contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding, a young person
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was truanting from school and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it was the only behaviour he
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was displaying that raised
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: any concerns. And so schools
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had been trying to manage
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that internally, largely
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: using sanctions that were ineffective,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until they contacted children's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and it turned out he
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a sibling with a disability,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and it was believed that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: maybe things were a bit
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: chaotic at home and that's why
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he was always late and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: struggling to focus in school.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The family said that wasn't an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: issue but that was the priority
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention from children's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and so that was the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention offered.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: His behaviour didn't change
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in school. There was then a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: threat to find his family for not
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: getting him into education
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he started to come in on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time every day and stayed in lessons
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: while he was there.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a measure of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: effectiveness being a reduction
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in truancy, the most effective
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention would have been the threat
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to fine. I unfortunately was
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called in to review his case
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a number of months later
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because he had been sexually
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and physically assaulted by a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group of young people from his
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school — although the assault
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happened in the community —
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he then said that he'd
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been coming in late every day because
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he waited for everyone to be
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in classrooms before he came
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into school. And he waited
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for teachers to be in those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: classrooms before he'd go into
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them. And then, if he'd needed
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to use the toilet during
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school time, he'd use the toilet
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in lesson time rather than at
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the breaktime because if he used
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the toilets in the breaktime, he
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was assaulted in the toilets.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So for him, a reduction in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: truancy actually meant an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase in risk. We didn't
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understand the context in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which he was truanting and address
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that. So a goal would
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually need to be that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school was a safe place for him
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be, not just that he
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attended. So it is really
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: important, albeit tricky, to contextualise
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: our outcome measures and to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: prioritise children's safety
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over and above counting
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: numbers.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's a very, very thorough approach
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and it's good that you have those in
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: three different sections and parts.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for that, because
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we know — you know, in my work at the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC — we know that measuring impact
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: can often be the hardest part of a
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: project.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: We love to do the work that leads up
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to it and then we have to measure the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outcome. So it's great that you have
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: this very, very thorough approach to
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: it. But sometimes we know the
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: clearest way of understanding that
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: impact is through real life examples,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and thank you so much for sharing
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: that example with us of that young
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: person. But do you think you might be
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: able to give us another example, of
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding working well
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: in practice?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Yes, absolutely.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, we often hear in the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: space of extra-familial harm
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that one of the proposed
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions is to move children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into care and often to move
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them a distance away from
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their home local authority;
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not because they're unsafe at
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: home, but because they are unsafe in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their local community,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sometimes to secure children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on welfare grounds for up to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: six months at a time for the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: same reason. And there may be
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: occasion where that is the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: absolute only solution for a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child. But often those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions are put in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place because people cannot
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: think about how to build safety
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around that child locally and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: haven't thought about contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've seen some changes in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that respect in some local
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: areas. In one site we were
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: working with, there was a proposal
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to move five children out of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a hostel — five 16- to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 17-year-olds where they were
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: living — because of concerns
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around criminal exploitation,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to move them into separate
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: accommodations. They did not
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to be moved and felt
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that if they were moved they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would run away from those
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placements because they wanted to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend time with each other.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, social workers used an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment of the friendship
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group, and of the hostel and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the surrounding area, to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guide a plan. The assessment
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: found that there was actually
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: little to no risk within that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: friendship group, and actually it
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was a very safe group,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provided emotional wellbeing
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to each other as well as physical
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety and protection, and it
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would have been a risk to split
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them up, so advocated for
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them to be kept together.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Instead, funding was found to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provide activities for them
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do safely together and for
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: two of them to have additional specialist
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: support in respect of drug
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and alcohol use.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A named police officer was identified
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to work with the hostel around
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: missing episodes, rather than
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lots of different police officers
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attending the provision,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which was causing
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficulties in the relationship
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: between the young people and the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: police. The hostel workers
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were supported with training, particularly
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around adolescent development,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to understand when behaviours
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were an indicator of risk and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where behaviours were just normal
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: developmentally expected
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: behaviours for young people,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to therefore be able to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be much more protective adults
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and foster more positive relationships
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with the young people who
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were living there. Some local
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: business owners were also
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: brought into the professional network,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who those young people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: identified as people that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they trusted, who could
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact professionals if they
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a concern about those young people,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but also those young people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: could go to if they were out
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and about and felt unsafe.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And then work was also done,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work in the professional
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: network, because things had
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: broken down quite a bit and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: there was a lot of blame between
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: statutory agencies which was
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: producing blockages in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So that combined plan was the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the location and peer
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment, and was offered as an
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: alternative to the distance
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placement which would have separated
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those young people from each other.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We see that type of planning
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: all the time. That was
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively complex planning.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Some more basic plans have
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: included supporting
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual children and young
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people back into education;
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work with
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: schools, social care,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: policing and families to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: build trust back in to the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship, to allow children
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to attend; and particularly to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase their timetables beyond
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things like 45 minutes a day,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they're not excluded
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from school but they're also not in
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: education for very long and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so they're out and about,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsupervised, and can be
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: exploited.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a range from complex to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively simplistic planning,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but all that prioritise
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs, the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: development of guardianship
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them and addressing any
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental or system
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: factors that get in the way of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their safety.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for sharing that.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And I see, in both of those examples,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: keeping that child focus is so
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: important.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Absolutely. Contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding really is about
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keeping children at the heart
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and one of the issues we've seen,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because of the pressure on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, is often we can
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lose sight of what children and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people actually need from
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us and plans reflect much
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: more what organisations need,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: rather than what children and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So it is sometimes challenging
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to adopt contextual safeguarding
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because it requires a sense
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of humility within services
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to really reflect on whether
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what they're doing is actually
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: helping children or whether
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it just makes us look like we're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing something which is better
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: than nothing, in case something
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: goes wrong. Those really
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficult questions and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussions often sit at the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: heart of contextual safeguarding
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: implementation.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And Carlene, just another question before
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we end.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: A lot of work we do, a lot of
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: organisations, community organisations,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: youth organisations come to us
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: because they have had direct contact
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: with young people, and often they
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: depend a lot on volunteers.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: They don't have a lot of professionals
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around or huge funding.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So what part can they play in this
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding journey?
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well all adults that have a
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship with children and young
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people can play a part in the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: road to contextual safeguarding,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because right at the centre
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it is relationships.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often they're the things that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keep children and people safest,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and they will be the things
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are utilised when
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children are unsafe.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's really important for
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: voluntary sector organisations to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: know if they operate in areas
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are adopting a contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach and you
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can normally find that out by
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: going on the websites of local
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's partnerships —
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or, if you're in Wales,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's safeguarding boards
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — to identify whether they're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing that and therefore whether,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for example, if children and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people are raising concerns
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to you about contexts that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're having to travel through
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to get to a youth club, that
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: you can flag those contexts
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with your local children's
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services department.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also seen voluntary
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sector organisations do
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety summits or safety
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping with the young people
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that use their services.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You know, printing out maps of the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: local area and mapping where
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people feel safe or
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe, and using that to
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lobby local partners for
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: improved responses.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I'd just say, anything that you
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: try to do around contextual
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding in the early days,
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it's important to do it with
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people and
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to collaborate with them; you're
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less likely to make a mistake.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But also we have a range of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: free resources on the
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to support any activities
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that. As I've mentioned
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: already we have resources on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context weighting but we also
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have resources on safety
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping and safety summits.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We have templates for policy
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: documents and a range of
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other activities that you can
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: run with volunteers on
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: training days, and other things
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that to support your
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ongoing learning on this
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: topic.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Really helpful to know.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It feels like a good place to end our
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: conversation today.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much to my guest,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, for joining
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us today.
PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: If you'd like to find out more about
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding and Carlene's
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: work, please visit the Global Centre
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: for Contextual Safeguarding website,
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you'll find a range of
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: articles, toolkits, and other
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: resources — there will be a link in
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the podcast shownotes below.
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you again, Carlene, for joining
SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us, and thank you for listening.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
OUTRO: Podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding
OUTRO: and child protection is ever-changing.
OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit
OUTRO: our website for professionals at
OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.