1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,059 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,379 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child 3 00:00:08,380 --> 00:00:10,959 INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,419 INTRO: organisation. 5 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:14,999 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,659 INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work 7 00:00:17,660 --> 00:00:20,559 INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,560 INTRO: people safe. 9 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:26,099 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning 10 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:27,499 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Podcast. 11 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:29,679 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm Shirley Maginley, one of the 12 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:31,979 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC's senior safeguarding 13 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:34,359 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: consultants, and I'll be hosting this 14 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,699 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: episode of the podcast which is all 15 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:38,979 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: about the concept of contextual 16 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:40,519 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding. 17 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,139 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: I'm delighted to be joined by 18 00:00:42,140 --> 00:00:44,519 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, the 19 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,399 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Director of the Global Centre for 20 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,499 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Contextual Safeguarding at Durham 21 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:51,100 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: University to talk about this topic. 22 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,939 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene coined the term 'contextual 23 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:57,819 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding' back in 2014 to 24 00:00:57,820 --> 00:00:59,939 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: describe an approach to safeguarding 25 00:00:59,940 --> 00:01:02,339 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: children that looks at additional 26 00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:05,219 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: context of harm outside of the family 27 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:07,479 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: home and beyond the control of a 28 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,299 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: child's parents and carers. 29 00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:11,719 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Carlene, thank you so much for 30 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,259 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: joining us today. 31 00:01:13,260 --> 00:01:14,232 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you for having me, Shirley. 32 00:01:14,233 --> 00:01:16,579 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Now, Carlene, the term has been 33 00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:19,179 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around for a few years now, but for 34 00:01:19,180 --> 00:01:21,319 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: those who might be hearing this term 35 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:22,939 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: 'contextual safeguarding' for the 36 00:01:22,940 --> 00:01:25,899 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: first time, or are less familiar with 37 00:01:25,900 --> 00:01:28,439 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the concept, what exactly is 38 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,780 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding? 39 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:32,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: There's a very basic way of explaining it 40 00:01:32,750 --> 00:01:34,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and a slightly more detailed one, 41 00:01:34,110 --> 00:01:35,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so I'll have a go at both. 42 00:01:35,450 --> 00:01:36,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In terms of the more basic 43 00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:39,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way, it came about because I 44 00:01:39,490 --> 00:01:40,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was reviewing cases where 45 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:42,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children had come to significant 46 00:01:42,570 --> 00:01:44,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm in contexts beyond their 47 00:01:44,590 --> 00:01:46,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family homes: in their friendship 48 00:01:46,070 --> 00:01:47,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: groups, in their schools and 49 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:49,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in public spaces. 50 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:50,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I found that social workers 51 00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:52,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and the partnerships that 52 00:01:52,130 --> 00:01:53,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they worked with largely 53 00:01:53,570 --> 00:01:54,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focused on assessing their 54 00:01:54,930 --> 00:01:56,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and them as 55 00:01:56,610 --> 00:01:58,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individuals to get a sense of 56 00:01:58,310 --> 00:02:00,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: risk, rather than the context 57 00:02:00,390 --> 00:02:02,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where the harm was actually occurring. 58 00:02:02,750 --> 00:02:04,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So contextual safeguarding, I 59 00:02:04,050 --> 00:02:05,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: first coined as a term, to 60 00:02:05,990 --> 00:02:08,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: say: if we want to respond to 61 00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:09,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: these types of harms like 62 00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:11,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sexual and criminal exploitation 63 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:12,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or violence between young 64 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:15,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, peer-to-peer abuse or 65 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:16,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abuse in their own 66 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:19,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationships, we need a 67 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:20,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding response that targets 68 00:02:20,630 --> 00:02:22,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context where that harm 69 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:23,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually occurs which is 70 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:25,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: often context beyond the 71 00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:26,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: family; which was not at the 72 00:02:26,650 --> 00:02:28,399 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time the focus of social work 73 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:29,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment and planning. 74 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:30,959 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's a kind of very basic 75 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,919 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one. The actual development 76 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:34,939 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it, which I'm sure we'll talk about, 77 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:36,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: converted that big picture 78 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,479 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: idea into a four-part 79 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,419 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework. So now when we use 80 00:02:40,420 --> 00:02:41,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the term 'contextual safeguarding', 81 00:02:41,860 --> 00:02:43,330 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we're talking about the four-part framework. 82 00:02:45,190 --> 00:02:46,649 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very good. 83 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:48,609 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: One of the things that really stands 84 00:02:48,610 --> 00:02:51,449 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: out in contextual safeguarding is, I 85 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:53,809 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: think, how it widens our focus beyond 86 00:02:53,810 --> 00:02:56,409 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what's happening in that family home. 87 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:58,329 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And in my work with professionals 88 00:02:58,330 --> 00:03:00,609 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: across different communities, 89 00:03:00,610 --> 00:03:02,369 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: including faith communities and 90 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:04,729 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: minoritised ethnic communities and 91 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:07,289 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: other settings as well, I often hear 92 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:09,389 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people say that families are doing 93 00:03:09,390 --> 00:03:10,390 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: their very best. 94 00:03:11,380 --> 00:03:13,979 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Yet still many don't fully understand 95 00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:15,999 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the risk that young people face 96 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,599 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outside of their home, whether that's 97 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,459 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: through peer groups or schools 98 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:24,799 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or community environments, 99 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,459 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and now, you know, online spaces. 100 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:30,419 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, with this in mind, why is it 101 00:03:30,420 --> 00:03:32,619 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: so important to consider these 102 00:03:32,620 --> 00:03:34,079 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different contexts? 103 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,259 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And how did they affect children's 104 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:37,199 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: risk of abuse? 105 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well, the reality is as young 106 00:03:39,770 --> 00:03:42,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people grow up they spend 107 00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:44,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time in many more contexts 108 00:03:44,250 --> 00:03:46,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without parental supervision. 109 00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:47,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Now my children are still 110 00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:49,390 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: quite young so most of the 111 00:03:49,391 --> 00:03:50,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time that I'm with them, 112 00:03:50,570 --> 00:03:52,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're either under the care 113 00:03:52,430 --> 00:03:54,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of the nursery workers that 114 00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:56,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we've selected or they're 115 00:03:56,750 --> 00:03:58,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with me or a family member. 116 00:03:58,550 --> 00:03:59,889 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so the friends that they 117 00:03:59,890 --> 00:04:01,289 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend their time with I choose — 118 00:04:01,290 --> 00:04:02,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: generally the ones whose parents 119 00:04:02,710 --> 00:04:04,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I get on best with — and I 120 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:05,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have quite a contained way of 121 00:04:05,810 --> 00:04:07,839 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: thinking about their safety. 122 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,599 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Even when their safety is 123 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,919 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discharged to the responsibility 124 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of people like my mum, that's 125 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,779 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in my control. I've put my 126 00:04:14,780 --> 00:04:15,999 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child with my mum, or I've 127 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,239 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: put my children in that nursery, 128 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,078 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so the things that they 129 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:20,359 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: may experience in those contexts 130 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,459 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: also I have influence over. 131 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:24,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas when young people are 132 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,619 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: growing up, they're spending more 133 00:04:25,620 --> 00:04:26,819 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and more time in contexts where 134 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:28,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents have far less 135 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:29,499 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence. We don't choose 136 00:04:29,500 --> 00:04:31,539 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their friends for them, we 137 00:04:31,540 --> 00:04:32,919 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: don't have much influence over 138 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,159 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what happens on the journey 139 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to and from school. 140 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:37,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't have as much influence 141 00:04:37,030 --> 00:04:38,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in the high streets, and 142 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:39,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: certainly not in the online spaces 143 00:04:39,910 --> 00:04:41,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time. 144 00:04:41,570 --> 00:04:42,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And even in school, we're much 145 00:04:42,930 --> 00:04:44,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less present there. We're not doing 146 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:45,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the pick-up and drop-off. 147 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:48,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We're as involved with the 148 00:04:48,370 --> 00:04:50,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents of their friends. 149 00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:52,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, parents have a really reduced 150 00:04:52,490 --> 00:04:54,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: level of influence. 151 00:04:54,210 --> 00:04:55,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And rightly so, because that 152 00:04:55,470 --> 00:04:57,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is the nature of human development. 153 00:04:57,310 --> 00:04:58,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Young people are growing up to 154 00:04:58,590 --> 00:05:01,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: become independent adults and 155 00:05:01,190 --> 00:05:02,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so there's a natural 156 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:04,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: progression there that happens. 157 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:07,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That means that we rely, as 158 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:08,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents, on a wide network of 159 00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:11,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other adults to support our 160 00:05:11,170 --> 00:05:12,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people to be safe; the 161 00:05:12,690 --> 00:05:13,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: adults who are in the places 162 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:15,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and spaces where they're 163 00:05:15,370 --> 00:05:16,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spending their time without 164 00:05:16,630 --> 00:05:17,630 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us. 165 00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:19,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whether that is the youth 166 00:05:19,550 --> 00:05:21,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: workers that them and their friends 167 00:05:21,010 --> 00:05:23,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: encounter when they socialise 168 00:05:23,870 --> 00:05:25,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: without us, or whether that's 169 00:05:25,430 --> 00:05:26,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the security staff in the 170 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:27,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: shopping centres, or the bus 171 00:05:27,990 --> 00:05:29,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers that drive the buses, all 172 00:05:29,710 --> 00:05:31,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of these people will to impact the 173 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:32,694 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of our young people, 174 00:05:32,695 --> 00:05:35,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and so we can't rely just on 175 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,659 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents to protect them when 176 00:05:37,660 --> 00:05:39,289 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are teenagers. 177 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:40,589 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Absolutely. 178 00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:42,669 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Before you mentioned that contextual 179 00:05:42,670 --> 00:05:45,169 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding now has four parts. 180 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:47,389 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Can you just walk us through that — 181 00:05:47,390 --> 00:05:49,538 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: what they are and how they fit together? 182 00:05:49,539 --> 00:05:51,199 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: When we go into an 183 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,159 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: organisation or a team, or 184 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,699 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: even when we look at individual 185 00:05:54,700 --> 00:05:56,559 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice, we're looking for 186 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,819 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: four things as a sign that 187 00:05:58,820 --> 00:06:00,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding is 188 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:01,879 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present. The first thing we 189 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,999 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ask is, what is this practice 190 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,199 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: targeting? 191 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,639 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The target in a contextual 192 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,259 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach is the 193 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:09,439 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context where the harm 194 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,499 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happens. So we don't just see 195 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:13,179 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a child in context, we 196 00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:15,119 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actively target that context. 197 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,059 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We identify it, we assess it, 198 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:18,819 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we respond to it in order 199 00:06:18,820 --> 00:06:20,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to change what's happening in 200 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:21,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that park or shopping centre 201 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or friendship group or school. 202 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:24,899 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: That's the first bit. The 203 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:26,659 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: second bit is the legislative 204 00:06:26,660 --> 00:06:29,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: basis of the work and how we 205 00:06:29,380 --> 00:06:30,619 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: frame it. So, contextual 206 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:31,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is underpinned 207 00:06:31,860 --> 00:06:33,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by child protection and child 208 00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:35,219 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare legislation 209 00:06:35,220 --> 00:06:36,619 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: predominantly. 210 00:06:36,620 --> 00:06:38,339 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We are focused on 211 00:06:38,340 --> 00:06:39,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's 212 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:41,479 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: welfare, promoting their 213 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,399 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wellbeing, and through that 214 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:44,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: therefore we're focusing on their 215 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs first and foremost. 216 00:06:47,410 --> 00:06:49,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often in this area, people 217 00:06:49,910 --> 00:06:51,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can prioritise crime and 218 00:06:51,930 --> 00:06:54,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: offending and risk and forget 219 00:06:54,130 --> 00:06:56,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about children's needs. 220 00:06:56,310 --> 00:06:57,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In contextual safeguarding, 221 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:00,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we prioritise needs and one 222 00:07:00,330 --> 00:07:02,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: way to do that is to address 223 00:07:02,250 --> 00:07:04,509 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their experiences of crime, 224 00:07:04,510 --> 00:07:06,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but we can address young people's 225 00:07:06,130 --> 00:07:07,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: experiences of crime and leave 226 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:08,441 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them with unmet need — so 227 00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:11,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: need has to be the driving 228 00:07:11,210 --> 00:07:13,299 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: focus of the work. 229 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:14,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The third part of the 230 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework are the partnerships 231 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,059 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that bring it to life. 232 00:07:18,060 --> 00:07:19,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Contextual safeguarding requires 233 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,599 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partnerships with young 234 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,559 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people, their families and 235 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,659 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: wider communities, and with 236 00:07:25,660 --> 00:07:27,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those various social actors I 237 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,499 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mentioned before who have an 238 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:30,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: influence in those contexts 239 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where young people are. 240 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:33,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So if the harm is happening 241 00:07:33,380 --> 00:07:36,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at school, school leadership, 242 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,899 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: pastoral care, teachers, 243 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:39,219 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents at the school, other 244 00:07:39,220 --> 00:07:41,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: students, staff that come 245 00:07:41,150 --> 00:07:42,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into the school from outside agencies 246 00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:44,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — they would all be the partners 247 00:07:44,170 --> 00:07:45,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in that response. 248 00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:46,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Whereas if the harm was happening 249 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:48,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a park, it might be dog 250 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:50,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: walkers, parks and recreation 251 00:07:50,630 --> 00:07:52,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, waste management 252 00:07:52,630 --> 00:07:53,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services that become the 253 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:55,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners. It would vary 254 00:07:55,710 --> 00:07:57,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context by context, but the 255 00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:58,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners are those that can impact 256 00:07:58,810 --> 00:08:00,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context. And the final 257 00:08:00,590 --> 00:08:02,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: part of the approach is the 258 00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:03,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcomes it's pursuing. 259 00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:05,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We don't just want to know if 260 00:08:05,150 --> 00:08:06,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the child is any safer as a 261 00:08:06,870 --> 00:08:08,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the response, we 262 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:09,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to know if the park they 263 00:08:09,830 --> 00:08:11,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were assaulted in is any 264 00:08:11,030 --> 00:08:12,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safer, or have we taken one 265 00:08:12,730 --> 00:08:14,289 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child out and another child 266 00:08:14,290 --> 00:08:15,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: has taken their place because 267 00:08:15,810 --> 00:08:18,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the park remains unsafe. 268 00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:19,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So they are the four parts of 269 00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:21,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the framework: the target of 270 00:08:21,450 --> 00:08:23,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the context, with a focus on 271 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:25,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs and welfare, 272 00:08:25,230 --> 00:08:27,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in partnership with those 273 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:28,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that can influence that 274 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:29,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context, and where you 275 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:31,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure your impact 276 00:08:31,030 --> 00:08:32,459 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextually. 277 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:34,439 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's very thorough, very thorough. 278 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,639 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's good to have that framework in a 279 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,579 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: very, you know... it cuts across a 280 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:39,940 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: lot of different areas, but in a very 281 00:08:39,941 --> 00:08:41,558 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: simplified manner so people can 282 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,119 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: understand where you start from and 283 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,179 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you want to end up. 284 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:48,859 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: But having a framework is one thing, 285 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:50,559 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: making it work across different 286 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:52,759 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: people and organisations, I would 287 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,059 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: imagine is a different thing. 288 00:08:55,060 --> 00:08:57,339 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, I'm interested in your thoughts 289 00:08:57,340 --> 00:08:59,013 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around how best 290 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:02,021 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we can manage those different partnerships, 291 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,879 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: whether it's between the agencies or 292 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,239 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the schools or the parks or the 293 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,579 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: different communities. And how do you 294 00:09:08,580 --> 00:09:10,319 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: get everyone on board? 295 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's definitely not an easy 296 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:14,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: piece of work to do. 297 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:15,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I've recently written a paper 298 00:09:15,590 --> 00:09:17,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called 'Why is common sense 299 00:09:17,030 --> 00:09:19,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so complicated?' Because a 300 00:09:19,050 --> 00:09:20,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lot of people think that contextual 301 00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:21,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding is quite 'common 302 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:23,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense'. You know, if a child is 303 00:09:23,050 --> 00:09:24,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: abused in a park, you should respond 304 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:26,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to the park. But doing that 305 00:09:26,050 --> 00:09:27,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is actually quite complicated 306 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:28,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a system that was never 307 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:30,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: designed for that purpose. 308 00:09:30,790 --> 00:09:32,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, turning that four-part 309 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:34,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: framework into a reality has 310 00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:36,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been a decade-long exercise 311 00:09:36,310 --> 00:09:37,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: up until now and will continue 312 00:09:37,830 --> 00:09:39,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be so, I'm sure, for many 313 00:09:39,770 --> 00:09:41,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: years ahead. Some of the 314 00:09:41,370 --> 00:09:42,716 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things that we found useful — 315 00:09:42,717 --> 00:09:44,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and we've worked with now 316 00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:45,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over 90 local authorities 317 00:09:45,730 --> 00:09:47,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across England, Wales and 318 00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:48,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Scotland as well as a range 319 00:09:48,410 --> 00:09:50,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of voluntary sector organisations 320 00:09:50,050 --> 00:09:52,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and schools who are using the 321 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:53,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding framework 322 00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:55,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — and we found some kind of 323 00:09:55,330 --> 00:09:56,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: core features of practice 324 00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:58,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that we see wherever people 325 00:09:58,310 --> 00:09:59,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: are trying to do this work. 326 00:09:59,990 --> 00:10:01,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: One of the ways that they get 327 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:02,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody on board is through 328 00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:03,849 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a practice that we call 329 00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:05,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'context weighting' and we 330 00:10:05,710 --> 00:10:07,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have lots of resources on the 331 00:10:07,030 --> 00:10:08,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website 332 00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:10,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to guide people through how 333 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:11,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to do context weighting. 334 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:13,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But it is, in essence, a 335 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:16,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussion between anyone 336 00:10:16,010 --> 00:10:17,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who's involved in the response 337 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:20,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to ask "which context is the 338 00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:21,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: one where this child is safest 339 00:10:21,590 --> 00:10:22,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and which context is where 340 00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:24,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they are least safe." So, 341 00:10:24,010 --> 00:10:25,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: weighting the influence of 342 00:10:25,210 --> 00:10:26,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different contexts. And 343 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:27,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: having those discussions at 344 00:10:27,830 --> 00:10:29,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: different points in the planning process 345 00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:30,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: really helps people get on 346 00:10:30,730 --> 00:10:32,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: board, particularly people 347 00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:33,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who might be further away 348 00:10:33,470 --> 00:10:35,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from safeguarding systems or 349 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:36,102 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not always understand what 350 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:38,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role might be in providing 351 00:10:38,590 --> 00:10:39,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety. 352 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:41,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also found that when 353 00:10:41,770 --> 00:10:43,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessing a context, that's 354 00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:46,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the best way to get people involved. 355 00:10:46,370 --> 00:10:47,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, kind of, blanket training 356 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:49,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of shopkeepers and taxi 357 00:10:49,370 --> 00:10:50,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: drivers and hoteliers — it's really 358 00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:51,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: hard for them to understand what 359 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:53,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their role could possibly be 360 00:10:53,390 --> 00:10:54,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in safeguarding children. 361 00:10:54,950 --> 00:10:56,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But if you do have a concern 362 00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:57,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about a young person in a 363 00:10:57,570 --> 00:10:59,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: public space or in a school, 364 00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:00,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and you then assess that 365 00:11:00,410 --> 00:11:01,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place, you have to speak to those 366 00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:04,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people. We've seen surveys of 367 00:11:04,210 --> 00:11:05,889 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: residents, of business 368 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:08,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: owners, shopkeepers, 369 00:11:08,050 --> 00:11:10,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: transport hubs, with a plan: 370 00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:11,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: "okay, we've got a concern about the 371 00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:12,849 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety of young people in this area, 372 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:14,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what do you think you could do 373 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:16,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to create safety for them or 374 00:11:16,570 --> 00:11:17,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them?" And those 375 00:11:17,830 --> 00:11:19,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: concrete actions can be a way 376 00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:21,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of getting those wider partnerships 377 00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:23,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on board and we've absolutely 378 00:11:23,010 --> 00:11:25,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: seen that come to life. 379 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:27,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Starting small, one context 380 00:11:27,370 --> 00:11:28,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: at a time, until you get a 381 00:11:28,950 --> 00:11:30,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sense of what would this look 382 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like if we mainstream that 383 00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:33,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: across our system. 384 00:11:33,630 --> 00:11:35,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And in that process, context 385 00:11:35,310 --> 00:11:36,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: by time, you get those 386 00:11:36,810 --> 00:11:38,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: partners on board. 387 00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:40,109 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Sounds like a lot of relationship 388 00:11:40,110 --> 00:11:41,589 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: building. 389 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:43,889 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And yes, partnership is necessary. 390 00:11:43,890 --> 00:11:45,989 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It's not just a nice to have, but it 391 00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:48,929 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: is absolutely needed for contextual 392 00:11:48,930 --> 00:11:52,269 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: safeguarding to have any impact and 393 00:11:52,270 --> 00:11:53,629 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: benefits. 394 00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:55,869 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So, it makes it even more important 395 00:11:55,870 --> 00:11:57,529 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to understand, you know, how do you 396 00:11:57,530 --> 00:11:59,409 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: measure the progress of all of that? 397 00:12:00,570 --> 00:12:02,349 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Do you use any particular indicators 398 00:12:02,350 --> 00:12:04,589 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: or tools in your practice to monitor 399 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:06,429 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the outcomes of success? 400 00:12:06,430 --> 00:12:08,269 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We do use different tools and 401 00:12:08,270 --> 00:12:09,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: indicators to monitor the 402 00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:10,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: outcome of success, although I 403 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:12,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would say it's slightly 404 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: challenging in the sense that 405 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:16,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we don't really have very good measures 406 00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:18,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for monitoring success in our 407 00:12:18,130 --> 00:12:19,509 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: traditional child protection 408 00:12:19,510 --> 00:12:20,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: system; so we don't really 409 00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:22,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have much to compare it to in 410 00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:24,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: terms of outcomes. 411 00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:26,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But for contextual safeguarding, 412 00:12:26,190 --> 00:12:27,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we do encourage a focus on 413 00:12:27,830 --> 00:12:29,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: three things when we're 414 00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:31,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: responding to either context 415 00:12:31,630 --> 00:12:32,849 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or individual children who 416 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:34,026 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were unsafe in those contexts. 417 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:36,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We encourage consideration of 418 00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:37,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs. 419 00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:39,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, what do children and 420 00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:40,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need in that 421 00:12:40,490 --> 00:12:42,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context or what does this 422 00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:44,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual child need and are 423 00:12:44,490 --> 00:12:46,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those needs being met? 424 00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:47,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And so a measure of success 425 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:50,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would be any increase in the 426 00:12:50,130 --> 00:12:51,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ability of services to meet 427 00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:53,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people's needs. 428 00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:54,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In the field of extra-familial 429 00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:56,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: harm, we often see unmet 430 00:12:56,070 --> 00:12:57,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: needs in respect of access to 431 00:12:57,970 --> 00:12:59,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safe education — they might 432 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:01,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have been offered an education place 433 00:13:01,210 --> 00:13:02,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but they're not safe when they're there 434 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:03,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or on their journey there. 435 00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:06,269 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A timely diagnosis in regards 436 00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:08,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of neurodivergence or 437 00:13:08,330 --> 00:13:09,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: learning needs is often an 438 00:13:09,830 --> 00:13:11,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unmet need for these children 439 00:13:11,650 --> 00:13:13,289 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and young people. 440 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:15,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Safe time with their friends 441 00:13:15,010 --> 00:13:17,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: is often an unmet need. 442 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:18,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, focusing plans around 443 00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:20,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: meeting children's needs is a 444 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:21,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good way of measuring 445 00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:23,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: success. The second way is 446 00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:24,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a concept we call 447 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:26,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'community guardianship' or 448 00:13:26,670 --> 00:13:28,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 'guardianship capacity'. 449 00:13:28,930 --> 00:13:30,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So instead of just assessing 450 00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:31,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a parent's capacity to 451 00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:33,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard a child, we consider 452 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:34,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: everybody's collective 453 00:13:34,430 --> 00:13:35,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: capacity to safeguard 454 00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:36,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children, which includes 455 00:13:36,950 --> 00:13:38,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their parents and carers, but 456 00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:39,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: isn't just about their 457 00:13:39,550 --> 00:13:41,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents and carers. So, we 458 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:42,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to measure children and 459 00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:44,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people's access to 460 00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:45,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trusted adults in any context 461 00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:47,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they spend their time. 462 00:13:47,550 --> 00:13:49,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, we don't just mean 463 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:50,849 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the adults we think are trusted, 464 00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:52,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: we mean that young people say 465 00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:53,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they have access to adults 466 00:13:53,970 --> 00:13:55,439 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that they trust. 467 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,039 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And again, if that is not 468 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,339 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: present in a context where 469 00:13:58,340 --> 00:13:59,719 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're unsafe, then a focus 470 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,239 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be building community 471 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guardianship in those contexts 472 00:14:02,860 --> 00:14:04,439 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until we get to a point that 473 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,879 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people report that they 474 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,699 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do identify adults that they 475 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: trust. And the third set of 476 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,279 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures relate to any environmental 477 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,939 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or community factors that 478 00:14:12,940 --> 00:14:15,459 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: undermine safety in any given 479 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:17,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context. Sometimes they can 480 00:14:17,380 --> 00:14:19,259 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be quite simple things to 481 00:14:19,260 --> 00:14:21,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: resolve, like a lack of 482 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,659 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact between parents of 483 00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:23,899 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people who are friends, and 484 00:14:24,807 --> 00:14:26,289 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: supporting greater 485 00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:27,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: collaboration between those 486 00:14:27,630 --> 00:14:28,889 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: parents can build safety 487 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:30,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around a friendship group. 488 00:14:30,450 --> 00:14:32,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Or it may be design features 489 00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:34,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in a local area that reduce 490 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:36,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: visibility, or an 491 00:14:36,390 --> 00:14:37,849 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over-surveillance of children 492 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:39,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and an under-provision of 493 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:41,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: protective relationships in a 494 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:43,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: locality can drive children 495 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:44,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: out of areas where they 496 00:14:44,570 --> 00:14:46,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: should be safe and into 497 00:14:46,090 --> 00:14:47,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spaces where we can't see 498 00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:49,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them and where they are 499 00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:51,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe. So addressing those 500 00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:52,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: types of issues, wider 501 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:53,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental factors, are also 502 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:55,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: good measures of safety. 503 00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:56,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You'll notice that what I'm talking 504 00:14:56,650 --> 00:14:57,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: about are quite qualitative 505 00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:59,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measures of safety. 506 00:14:59,490 --> 00:15:00,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We wouldn't consider something 507 00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:02,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like a reduction in truancy a 508 00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:04,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: measure of safety, unless we 509 00:15:04,810 --> 00:15:06,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understood the context in 510 00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:08,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which truancy had reduced. 511 00:15:08,390 --> 00:15:10,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: In one of the cases I 512 00:15:10,190 --> 00:15:11,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: reviewed early on in contextual 513 00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:13,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding, a young person 514 00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:14,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was truanting from school and 515 00:15:14,930 --> 00:15:16,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it was the only behaviour he 516 00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:17,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was displaying that raised 517 00:15:17,530 --> 00:15:18,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: any concerns. And so schools 518 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:20,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had been trying to manage 519 00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:22,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that internally, largely 520 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:23,739 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: using sanctions that were ineffective, 521 00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:25,399 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: until they contacted children's 522 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:26,979 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and it turned out he 523 00:15:26,980 --> 00:15:28,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a sibling with a disability, 524 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:29,579 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and it was believed that 525 00:15:29,580 --> 00:15:31,439 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: maybe things were a bit 526 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:32,619 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: chaotic at home and that's why 527 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:33,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he was always late and 528 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,479 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: struggling to focus in school. 529 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: The family said that wasn't an 530 00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:38,299 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: issue but that was the priority 531 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:39,679 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention from children's 532 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:40,979 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services and so that was the 533 00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:42,279 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention offered. 534 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:43,579 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: His behaviour didn't change 535 00:15:43,580 --> 00:15:45,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in school. There was then a 536 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: threat to find his family for not 537 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,519 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: getting him into education 538 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,219 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he started to come in on 539 00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:51,739 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: time every day and stayed in lessons 540 00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:53,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: while he was there. 541 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,259 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a measure of 542 00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:55,539 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: effectiveness being a reduction 543 00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:57,059 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in truancy, the most effective 544 00:15:57,060 --> 00:15:58,339 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention would have been the threat 545 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:00,479 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to fine. I unfortunately was 546 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,319 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: called in to review his case 547 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:03,539 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a number of months later 548 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:04,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because he had been sexually 549 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,139 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and physically assaulted by a 550 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:07,339 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group of young people from his 551 00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:08,779 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school — although the assault 552 00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:09,979 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: happened in the community — 553 00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:11,419 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and he then said that he'd 554 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:12,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: been coming in late every day because 555 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,339 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: he waited for everyone to be 556 00:16:14,340 --> 00:16:15,699 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in classrooms before he came 557 00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:16,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into school. And he waited 558 00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:18,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for teachers to be in those 559 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:19,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: classrooms before he'd go into 560 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:20,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them. And then, if he'd needed 561 00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:22,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to use the toilet during 562 00:16:22,210 --> 00:16:23,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school time, he'd use the toilet 563 00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:25,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: in lesson time rather than at 564 00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:27,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the breaktime because if he used 565 00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:28,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the toilets in the breaktime, he 566 00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:29,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was assaulted in the toilets. 567 00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:31,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So for him, a reduction in 568 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:32,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: truancy actually meant an 569 00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:33,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase in risk. We didn't 570 00:16:33,950 --> 00:16:35,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: understand the context in 571 00:16:35,190 --> 00:16:36,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which he was truanting and address 572 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:38,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that. So a goal would 573 00:16:38,390 --> 00:16:39,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: actually need to be that 574 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:40,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: school was a safe place for him 575 00:16:40,830 --> 00:16:42,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to be, not just that he 576 00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:44,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attended. So it is really 577 00:16:44,750 --> 00:16:46,178 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: important, albeit tricky, to contextualise 578 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,599 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: our outcome measures and to 579 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,359 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: prioritise children's safety 580 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:52,579 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: over and above counting 581 00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:53,580 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: numbers. 582 00:16:53,660 --> 00:16:56,139 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: That's a very, very thorough approach 583 00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:57,999 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and it's good that you have those in 584 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,259 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: three different sections and parts. 585 00:17:01,260 --> 00:17:02,919 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for that, because 586 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,598 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we know — you know, in my work at the 587 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,039 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: NSPCC — we know that measuring impact 588 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,838 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: can often be the hardest part of a 589 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:11,279 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: project. 590 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,999 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: We love to do the work that leads up 591 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,779 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: to it and then we have to measure the 592 00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:16,838 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: outcome. So it's great that you have 593 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,098 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: this very, very thorough approach to 594 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:21,039 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: it. But sometimes we know the 595 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,429 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: clearest way of understanding that 596 00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:25,492 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: impact is through real life examples, 597 00:17:25,493 --> 00:17:28,309 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: and thank you so much for sharing 598 00:17:28,310 --> 00:17:30,649 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: that example with us of that young 599 00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:32,789 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: person. But do you think you might be 600 00:17:32,790 --> 00:17:35,049 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: able to give us another example, of 601 00:17:35,050 --> 00:17:36,909 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding working well 602 00:17:36,910 --> 00:17:38,029 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: in practice? 603 00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:39,509 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Yes, absolutely. 604 00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:41,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, we often hear in the 605 00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:42,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: space of extra-familial harm 606 00:17:42,690 --> 00:17:43,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that one of the proposed 607 00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:45,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions is to move children 608 00:17:45,410 --> 00:17:46,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: into care and often to move 609 00:17:46,790 --> 00:17:48,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them a distance away from 610 00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:49,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their home local authority; 611 00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:50,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: not because they're unsafe at 612 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:52,269 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: home, but because they are unsafe in 613 00:17:52,270 --> 00:17:53,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their local community, 614 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:55,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sometimes to secure children 615 00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:57,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: on welfare grounds for up to 616 00:17:57,050 --> 00:17:58,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: six months at a time for the 617 00:17:58,370 --> 00:18:00,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: same reason. And there may be 618 00:18:00,130 --> 00:18:01,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: occasion where that is the 619 00:18:01,490 --> 00:18:03,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: absolute only solution for a 620 00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:05,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: child. But often those 621 00:18:05,490 --> 00:18:06,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: interventions are put in 622 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:08,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: place because people cannot 623 00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:09,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: think about how to build safety 624 00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:12,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around that child locally and 625 00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:13,569 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: haven't thought about contextual 626 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:14,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: intervention. 627 00:18:14,790 --> 00:18:16,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've seen some changes in 628 00:18:16,450 --> 00:18:18,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that respect in some local 629 00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:19,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: areas. In one site we were 630 00:18:19,910 --> 00:18:21,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: working with, there was a proposal 631 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:23,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to move five children out of 632 00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:24,603 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: a hostel — five 16- to 633 00:18:24,604 --> 00:18:26,169 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: 17-year-olds where they were 634 00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:27,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: living — because of concerns 635 00:18:27,670 --> 00:18:29,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around criminal exploitation, 636 00:18:29,410 --> 00:18:30,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to move them into separate 637 00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:32,599 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: accommodations. They did not 638 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,119 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: want to be moved and felt 639 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that if they were moved they 640 00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:36,859 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would run away from those 641 00:18:36,860 --> 00:18:38,159 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placements because they wanted to 642 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,639 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: spend time with each other. 643 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,659 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, social workers used an 644 00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:42,919 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment of the friendship 645 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: group, and of the hostel and 646 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:46,639 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: the surrounding area, to 647 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,499 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: guide a plan. The assessment 648 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:49,779 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: found that there was actually 649 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:51,319 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: little to no risk within that 650 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,599 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: friendship group, and actually it 651 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,139 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: was a very safe group, 652 00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:55,899 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provided emotional wellbeing 653 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,319 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to each other as well as physical 654 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,959 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety and protection, and it 655 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,239 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: would have been a risk to split 656 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them up, so advocated for 657 00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:04,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: them to be kept together. 658 00:19:04,610 --> 00:19:07,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Instead, funding was found to 659 00:19:07,030 --> 00:19:08,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: provide activities for them 660 00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:10,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: do safely together and for 661 00:19:10,490 --> 00:19:12,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: two of them to have additional specialist 662 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:13,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: support in respect of drug 663 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:15,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and alcohol use. 664 00:19:15,310 --> 00:19:17,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: A named police officer was identified 665 00:19:17,130 --> 00:19:18,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to work with the hostel around 666 00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:20,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: missing episodes, rather than 667 00:19:20,530 --> 00:19:21,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lots of different police officers 668 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:23,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: attending the provision, 669 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:24,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: which was causing 670 00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:26,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficulties in the relationship 671 00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:27,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: between the young people and the 672 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:29,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: police. The hostel workers 673 00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:30,618 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were supported with training, particularly 674 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,999 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around adolescent development, 675 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,799 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to understand when behaviours 676 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,639 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were an indicator of risk and 677 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,139 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where behaviours were just normal 678 00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:39,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: developmentally expected 679 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,099 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: behaviours for young people, 680 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:43,579 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and to therefore be able to 681 00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:45,299 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: be much more protective adults 682 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,079 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and foster more positive relationships 683 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,379 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with the young people who 684 00:19:48,380 --> 00:19:49,879 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: were living there. Some local 685 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,119 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: business owners were also 686 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,759 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: brought into the professional network, 687 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,019 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: who those young people 688 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:55,299 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: identified as people that 689 00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:56,899 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they trusted, who could 690 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:58,159 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contact professionals if they 691 00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: had a concern about those young people, 692 00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:00,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but also those young people 693 00:20:00,830 --> 00:20:02,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: could go to if they were out 694 00:20:02,090 --> 00:20:03,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and about and felt unsafe. 695 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:05,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: And then work was also done, 696 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:07,029 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work in the professional 697 00:20:07,030 --> 00:20:08,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: network, because things had 698 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:09,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: broken down quite a bit and 699 00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:11,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: there was a lot of blame between 700 00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:13,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: statutory agencies which was 701 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:15,429 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: producing blockages in 702 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:16,609 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: practice. 703 00:20:16,610 --> 00:20:18,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So that combined plan was the 704 00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:19,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: result of the location and peer 705 00:20:19,690 --> 00:20:21,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: assessment, and was offered as an 706 00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: alternative to the distance 707 00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:24,509 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: placement which would have separated 708 00:20:24,510 --> 00:20:26,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: those young people from each other. 709 00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:27,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We see that type of planning 710 00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:29,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: all the time. That was 711 00:20:29,490 --> 00:20:31,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively complex planning. 712 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:33,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Some more basic plans have 713 00:20:33,330 --> 00:20:34,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: included supporting 714 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:36,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: individual children and young 715 00:20:36,150 --> 00:20:38,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people back into education; 716 00:20:38,530 --> 00:20:39,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: restorative work with 717 00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:41,589 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: schools, social care, 718 00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:43,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: policing and families to 719 00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:44,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: build trust back in to the 720 00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:46,089 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship, to allow children 721 00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:47,509 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to attend; and particularly to 722 00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:48,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: increase their timetables beyond 723 00:20:48,990 --> 00:20:51,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: things like 45 minutes a day, 724 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:52,809 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: where they're not excluded 725 00:20:52,810 --> 00:20:54,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: from school but they're also not in 726 00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:55,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: education for very long and 727 00:20:55,690 --> 00:20:57,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: so they're out and about, 728 00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:58,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsupervised, and can be 729 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:00,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: exploited. 730 00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:02,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So, a range from complex to 731 00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:03,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relatively simplistic planning, 732 00:21:03,630 --> 00:21:05,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: but all that prioritise 733 00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:07,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's needs, the 734 00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:08,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: development of guardianship 735 00:21:08,210 --> 00:21:09,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: around them and addressing any 736 00:21:09,670 --> 00:21:11,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: environmental or system 737 00:21:11,230 --> 00:21:12,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: factors that get in the way of 738 00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:13,819 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: their safety. 739 00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:15,799 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much for sharing that. 740 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,699 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And I see, in both of those examples, 741 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,719 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: keeping that child focus is so 742 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:21,929 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: important. 743 00:21:21,930 --> 00:21:23,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Absolutely. Contextual 744 00:21:23,210 --> 00:21:24,489 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding really is about 745 00:21:24,490 --> 00:21:25,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keeping children at the heart 746 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:27,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and one of the issues we've seen, 747 00:21:27,230 --> 00:21:28,789 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because of the pressure on 748 00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:30,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services, is often we can 749 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:31,969 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lose sight of what children and 750 00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:33,269 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people actually need from 751 00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:35,009 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: us and plans reflect much 752 00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:36,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: more what organisations need, 753 00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:37,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: rather than what children and 754 00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:39,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people need. 755 00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:40,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: So it is sometimes challenging 756 00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:42,409 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to adopt contextual safeguarding 757 00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:43,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because it requires a sense 758 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:46,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of humility within services 759 00:21:46,150 --> 00:21:47,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to really reflect on whether 760 00:21:47,930 --> 00:21:49,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: what they're doing is actually 761 00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:50,559 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: helping children or whether 762 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,839 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it just makes us look like we're 763 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,179 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing something which is better 764 00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:54,559 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: than nothing, in case something 765 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,999 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: goes wrong. Those really 766 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,359 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: difficult questions and 767 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:59,139 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: discussions often sit at the 768 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:00,939 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: heart of contextual safeguarding 769 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:01,940 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: implementation. 770 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:03,879 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: And Carlene, just another question before 771 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,880 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: we end. 772 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,639 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: A lot of work we do, a lot of 773 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,299 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: organisations, community organisations, 774 00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:13,059 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: youth organisations come to us 775 00:22:13,060 --> 00:22:14,759 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: because they have had direct contact 776 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,279 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: with young people, and often they 777 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,099 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: depend a lot on volunteers. 778 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:20,519 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: They don't have a lot of professionals 779 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,859 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: around or huge funding. 780 00:22:22,860 --> 00:22:24,919 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: So what part can they play in this 781 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,959 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding journey? 782 00:22:28,052 --> 00:22:29,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Well all adults that have a 783 00:22:29,630 --> 00:22:30,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: relationship with children and young 784 00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:32,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: people can play a part in the 785 00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:33,769 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: road to contextual safeguarding, 786 00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:35,229 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: because right at the centre 787 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:37,069 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: of it is relationships. 788 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:38,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Often they're the things that 789 00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:40,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: keep children and people safest, 790 00:22:40,050 --> 00:22:41,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: and they will be the things 791 00:22:41,370 --> 00:22:42,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are utilised when 792 00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:44,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children are unsafe. 793 00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:45,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: It's really important for 794 00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:46,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: voluntary sector organisations to 795 00:22:46,830 --> 00:22:48,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: know if they operate in areas 796 00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:49,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that are adopting a contextual 797 00:22:49,710 --> 00:22:51,209 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguard approach and you 798 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:52,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: can normally find that out by 799 00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:54,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: going on the websites of local 800 00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:55,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding children's partnerships — 801 00:22:55,670 --> 00:22:57,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: or, if you're in Wales, 802 00:22:57,250 --> 00:22:58,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children's safeguarding boards 803 00:22:58,550 --> 00:22:59,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: — to identify whether they're 804 00:22:59,930 --> 00:23:01,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: doing that and therefore whether, 805 00:23:01,370 --> 00:23:02,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: for example, if children and 806 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:03,929 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people are raising concerns 807 00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:05,749 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to you about contexts that 808 00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:07,049 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: they're having to travel through 809 00:23:07,050 --> 00:23:09,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to get to a youth club, that 810 00:23:09,250 --> 00:23:10,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: you can flag those contexts 811 00:23:10,830 --> 00:23:12,469 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: with your local children's 812 00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:14,149 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: services department. 813 00:23:14,150 --> 00:23:15,369 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We've also seen voluntary 814 00:23:15,370 --> 00:23:16,949 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: sector organisations do 815 00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:18,389 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safety summits or safety 816 00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:20,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping with the young people 817 00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:21,709 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: that use their services. 818 00:23:21,710 --> 00:23:22,989 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: You know, printing out maps of the 819 00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:24,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: local area and mapping where 820 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:25,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: young people feel safe or 821 00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:27,529 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: unsafe, and using that to 822 00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:29,349 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: lobby local partners for 823 00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:31,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: improved responses. 824 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:32,549 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: I'd just say, anything that you 825 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:33,869 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: try to do around contextual 826 00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:35,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: safeguarding in the early days, 827 00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:37,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: it's important to do it with 828 00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:38,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: children and young people and 829 00:23:38,830 --> 00:23:40,129 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to collaborate with them; you're 830 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:41,629 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: less likely to make a mistake. 831 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:43,729 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: But also we have a range of 832 00:23:43,730 --> 00:23:44,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: free resources on the 833 00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:46,249 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: contextual safeguarding website 834 00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:47,889 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: to support any activities 835 00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:49,649 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that. As I've mentioned 836 00:23:49,650 --> 00:23:51,689 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: already we have resources on 837 00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:53,189 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: context weighting but we also 838 00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:54,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: have resources on safety 839 00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:56,309 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: mapping and safety summits. 840 00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:58,829 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: We have templates for policy 841 00:23:58,830 --> 00:24:00,329 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: documents and a range of 842 00:24:00,330 --> 00:24:01,909 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: other activities that you can 843 00:24:01,910 --> 00:24:03,449 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: run with volunteers on 844 00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:04,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: training days, and other things 845 00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:06,109 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: like that to support your 846 00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:07,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: ongoing learning on this 847 00:24:07,670 --> 00:24:08,669 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: topic. 848 00:24:08,670 --> 00:24:09,909 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Really helpful to know. 849 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:11,109 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much. 850 00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:13,229 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: It feels like a good place to end our 851 00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:14,849 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: conversation today. 852 00:24:14,850 --> 00:24:16,969 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you so much to my guest, 853 00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:18,909 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Professor Carlene Firmin, for joining 854 00:24:18,910 --> 00:24:20,049 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us today. 855 00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:20,444 PROFESSOR CARLENE FIRMIN: Thank you. 856 00:24:20,445 --> 00:24:23,029 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: If you'd like to find out more about 857 00:24:23,030 --> 00:24:25,289 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: contextual safeguarding and Carlene's 858 00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:27,789 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: work, please visit the Global Centre 859 00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:30,329 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: for Contextual Safeguarding website, 860 00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:31,809 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: where you'll find a range of 861 00:24:31,810 --> 00:24:33,669 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: articles, toolkits, and other 862 00:24:33,670 --> 00:24:36,269 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: resources — there will be a link in 863 00:24:36,270 --> 00:24:38,639 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: the podcast shownotes below. 864 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,519 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: Thank you again, Carlene, for joining 865 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,039 SHIRLEY MAGINLEY: us, and thank you for listening. 866 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,519 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 867 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:49,939 OUTRO: Podcast. 868 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:52,439 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 869 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,919 OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding 870 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,559 OUTRO: and child protection is ever-changing. 871 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,559 OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 872 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,459 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 873 00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:05,219 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 874 00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:07,499 OUTRO: our website for professionals at 875 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:09,600 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.