Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Eyes
War Room with Helen Lewis.
Adam McQueen and Ian
Hislop.
, very glad that you're all here today, Ian, I know you've flown
in at some expense from Dubai,
expense to the taxpayer I obviously
we're here to discuss
What
on Earth is going on.
Helen, how did this happen?
A,
a very good question and one to
which we still
do not
after several days have an answer.
we've
got quite a lot of answers, haven't we?
An awful lot of
' reasons.
of different
answers.
various explanations were offered Trump, Seemed to
have been on phone calls with half of the US
Press
Corps over the previous weekend,
and he gave a range
of ideas.
Marco
Rubio, the Secretary of State,
came out
and said something
which might
have been accidentally have been true, and was therefore he was immediately had to
backtrack on, which was
the idea that,
Israel were going to
do strikes on Iran, which they knew Iran would respond to.
And so therefore, America
was preempting
that.
But
that's obviously a very controversial thing to say, that the world's
greatest superpower is being dragged into a war by a, Nation of 8
million people.
So he
then had to pretend that
wasn't what
he'd
said, in one of those kind of great
flat denials that they,
that the
US administration
really specialize in,
When they go, no, we didn't.
And then they play the clip, and they oh yeah, you did.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you know what the answer
is, that nobody,
nobody
really
knows.
they
did last weekend, they were talking about regime change, which
they've
got.
yeah, Ali Kaney is
now dead.
His
son at the time
of recording
is wounded but alive.
Yeah.
According to that,
not
a big change then.
I think, it's a significant change because you now have a supreme
leader who you murdered his father, his wife, and his child.
So he'll have more motivation for reform, And reaching out to
the West, I would've thought.
Another success, mission
accomplished.
Yeah.
But also the, there's been all these things
about how they want,
Iranian protestors to rise up and capitalize
on,
on the
protest.
The trouble is that comes after several weeks of thousands upon
thousands of them being slaughtered
or
imprisoned by the regime.
The other thing
that they've done is, obviously the US
defunded, all of
its, overseas broadcast
operations, including I believe, one in Farsi.
because
that was woke madness that just allowed
people just to sit on very big ses and
and the new supreme leader is called moba, which is the far C four chosen.
So when they were
having
the
meeting,
I want,
I
wonder
if we're
gonna choose.
But also in, in his cv, which obviously I've been reading recently to try
and catch up, it said he had a very influential teacher, that, formed a
lot of his views called his father.
Okay.
the signs have been there for a while, that the immediate replacement,
and as you say, we dunno how long this will last, is not going to be
a leader of the, opposition party.
No.
So it's not, we're not dealing with someone who we can trust.
'cause he's been through the British public school system and been deeply
inculcated in our ways and values.
no.
No,
It's continuity
IOL is
what
I'm, yeah.
hasn't even been to Sandhurst.
But does
that bother Trump?
Because he did regime change in, Venezuela, didn't he?
Which consisted of taking out one man and his wife and then just
letting the regime carry on now as normal, but, making sure that some
of the oil reserves came the US' way
instead.
Yeah.
Although I'm really not sure
how even that's
working
out given the reluctance of the US oil companies to invest in a
mad
Trump
scheme, given that they think even if
you think he's
gonna stay around beyond his term,
he is still
heading into his eighties.
is it just too
cynical
to say that Trump just fancied
doing it and there was no one around
him to stop him
and
and the ah ma is in place.
What you gonna, what you gonna do?
Send him
home?
It would be embarrassing at that point
to send them home.
And I also think that, Israel has been very clear about the fact that it feels
that it wants to just use the opportunity of its, current aggressive posture
to take out as many
regional enemies as possible.
they, but, Israeli opposition to Iran's nuclear
program
is long
running.
they've done a kind of incredible.
stuff.
At one point
they set up a couple of years ago, a,
a remote controlled sniper rifle
to
take
out on the top of a
mountain
to take out an Iranian nuclear scientist.
there was a, do you remember that terrible mad time when Benjamin Netanyahu
posed with that wall of rack of DVDs
where
they'd got all
of the, the Iranian nuclear secrets.
This has been a, a longstanding preoccupation of
Israel.
Previous
US presidents have been more of the
calm down lad's view.
Donald
Trump is not,
but this is also the nuclear capability, which we were told by one.
Donald Trump had been totally obliterated last
year.
Yeah.
Don't
we?
When they did
the
strikes last year, he said it was fake news to say that they were only,
compromised and not totally obliterated.
So they got going on that again quickly, didn't
they?
Given that
they keep a Right.
assassinating Iranian
nuclear
scientists,
it's a real testament to their grit that they've got it
back up
again within six months.
Yeah.
And it
is confusing for, readers to say, oh, how's the war on Iran going, oh,
there's a lot happening in Lebanon.
Most of the casualties, 300 and a couple of days.
seem to be by Israel on a country that isn't the named aggressor.
think
Benjamin Netanyahu has calculated,
he will never have an American
president who is so keen to do all the stuff
that he's always wanted to do for, a decade or more now.
And
so
there's, this is what I mean.
This is a fundamentally a war about the fact that there
is nothing to
restrain Donald
Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu.
why is there
nothing?
there's
no international law for a start.
So we have, president Macron was delicately tiptoed up to the edge of
saying it's not really in accordance with
international law.
Actually,
there's
no, there
was no vote
in Congress,
before
this, no congressional
authorization for this, no one else in the alliance, the NATO alliance is willing
to speak up to, Donald Trump, the most
we're getting is Ki saying, you can't use our bases.
Oh, no, actually
you can
now.
And China and
Russia, which are allied with Iran, haven't really stepped
in any,
I'm sure they're supplying it with
intelligence
or arms,
but they haven't stepped up in any massive
way to
make a big deal or outta this.
So, who, what is the restraint here on,
on Trump and Netanyahu,
and then some commentators say, that's good.
There is no restraint.
Indeed.
The one thing that might be the restraint as ever, is the US economy.
so as we're talking now, there's overnight been a huge oil
price spike,
and that is
the one thing that
people in
the White House who aren't
called Donald Trump are very worried about.
But this has been, but
this has been going on for a long time.
So the midterms are in November.
Traditionally, you'd expect a President's party to lose ground
in the midterms, which will
be the
start of Trump's gentle, fading outta
public life.
If
this were to follow
classic,
US presidential
second terms.
So the, his team are terribly worried that they can't get him
to talk about affordability.
he mentions it
in
passing, but
then gets super bored
very quickly.
And is not doing the
kind of things you would
do if
you're worried about it,
like rolling back
tariffs, like not
spending billions
of dollars of ordinance
in, the
Middle East with no clear objective.
After nine 11, there was a strong
impulse
that something must be done.
I don't get the sense that's, the same here.
No, the polling on it
is really, negative
and I'm not surprised
about that because there was absolutely no preparation for it.
So a couple of days before the strike,
Trump did the
State
of the Union address, which is incredibly long
and rambling,
and he did, I think, three paragraphs on
Iran.
Now, classically, you might want to say
we
have
this terrible enemy and, To get back to 2003.
Oh, we are really worried it'll unleash a chemical weapon on us.
Or we are really worried it's got weapons of mass destruction, or here's the threat
that it poses to the world order, or
we can't allow this to go on because of this incredible
threat.
No, he just
said we can't let them have a nuclear weapon.
And
that was
really
as far as it went.
So the American public opinion hasn't been prepared
it was extraordinary.
I was going back for reasons that become apparent a bit later in the podcast to
a lot of coverage from 2003 and quite how long the buildup to that one was.
it was all about are they gonna get a un second resolution and are the weapons
inspectors gonna be allowed to buy?
it's 18 months before they actually moved and, went in.
whereas this one just does seem to have done on a whim, possibly.
do you think he knew it was gonna happen or did Nie Min Netina who
just phone him up and say it's
tomorrow?
they had been moving, as Andy said, they'd been moving all of the carrier
groups into the, into the Mediterranean,
so that over a period of
weeks.
the day before the
embassies were saying all the non-essential staff.
please
leave, which didn't
seem to trickle through to the influencers at
that point.
I would be like, oh, really?
Okay,
fine.
I See
you.
they're essential
though.
That's
the thing.
Yeah.
Deeply essential
posting activities that must be done.
and in a way they
hadn't really stopped since last June when they bombed the nuclear facilities.
That was a, cease
fire
in the sense of, and we'll come back anytime we like.
Thank you.
the
international inspectors did say that they had found some, material.
so there was a,
small chance to say actually, it's not totally random, but that was just buried.
Yeah.
I really like people have been doing that meme of at least in
2003 you took the time to lie to
us
and You can't even be bothered to
do that.
I
think Trump's having a very
bad
time at the moment.
He's had this big rash on his neck.
He's been wearing a, baseball cap, which for a man who's very.
Vain is an interesting one.
So the fake situation room that he's made in Mar-a-Lago.
He was sitting there with his baseball cap on, and then he went
to a dignified transfer, which is when they receive home the bodies of
American servicemen,
traditionally, like the most solemn occasion.
And he was wearing a baseball cap for it,
but it's a white cap.
I'm pretty convinced that he's thought this shows, I'm one of the good guys.
Um,
it's back to fairly
basic
John Wayne territory, Are
I'm afraid.
We are
Jerry Cooper.
the Iranian guys, all their hats are black Andy,
right?
He is
wearing a white
hat.
I don't need,
I don't need any further
convincing,
that's the level of analysis you're gonna get
from
me.
Oh.
Then he might put a, maybe he puts the black hat on when he orders a strike.
or,
maybe it's a bit like the new Pope.
Maybe he's sending
out kind
of signals
through the colors of a hat.
but
you think it's, there's something wrong with
hat?
I think,
it's
about the fact that they had, that he's
got some, he's had all these, he's had this bruise on his hand that
looks like a son but had an IV in it.
He's
had congested ankles.
He's spoken a bit about the fact that might be chronic venous insufficiency.
I think he's struggling through a few
health
problems,
which is probably not surprising for amount
his age.
For a man of his age and
prodigious Diet Coke and random food consumption.
he's not a,
and he
takes four aspirin a day.
there's
this
kind
of,
' 'cause he
wants lovely, thin blood.
He doesn't want nasty, thick blood
going
The classicist listening.
I don't think he's got Venus Insufficiency.
I think it's
Mars.
Oh,
so the war is not legal.
it's not popular.
It's hugely
screwing
up the global economy.
there
are hundreds and hundreds of civilian
casualties happening.
we haven't yet completely.
answered
the
question of,
who launched the strike on the primary school, which killed about 170,
girls.
Yeah.
But
it
does look like
it was
an American
strike.
it
could very well be.
The Americans haven't
denied
it.
They've just said,
Pete Hesser said
that Trump's
denied it.
yeah, Trump
denies everything.
yeah.
But, at the Pentagon press briefing the BBC one of the few legacy
outlets that were still allowed in there because of Pete Hegseth,
the Secretary of Wars turnover
of
kind of
the
press court influences.
They said, what's happening with that?
And he said, there's an investigation going on.
They said, that's what you said several days
ago.
Could you
hurry
this along?
And no,
they didn't get any further
right
with
it.
there was a piece in the eye last week suggesting that the, overuse of AI
with
targeting, might explain some of these errors rather than it being a,
merely a, malicious desire to blow up
school
children, which I don't think is what the Americans are doing.
It is just a carelessness.
And an an Over-reliance, on technology, which does make mistakes,
it is hard to see how the war is gonna get any more popular as time goes by.
If
there
are
more casualties, as,
the certainly will be Iranian.
And whether there are any more American
ones
we're used to
the idea that Trump makes quick
Lightning raids,
Venezuela, the, bombing of the nuclear sites that last June,
and then declares victory.
It seems as though Iran hasn't received a copy of that script on this occasion.
that's
the real fear when you talk
to people who, cover that
region.
Is that it are, is there a sense among the Iranian leadership
that
they don't have anything to lose by
just continuing
there certainly isn't.
when one of the many justifications has been given for it is that they
want re regime change, isn't there?
there's not really much coming back from that, even if it's
amongst a smorgasbord of other
justifications.
Yeah.
They want
out.
Yeah.
But I think you are right about the, popularity aspect of it.
I suspect that will be what eventually prompts Trump to
declare that he's definitely won.
It's
all
over,
everything's amazing,
and then move on
to something else.
But it's,
it is really
peculiar
because I sat there at a Trump rally and listened to him saying, I'm
the only US president in 80 years
who hasn't started any wars.
I've ended some such a huge part of his appeal.
He was in the 2016
debates very when he had a go Jeb Bush, for
those of you who are,
have long memories
about
Iraq saying, you've got us
into
this stupid war that cost American
lives and American billions.
What
was the point of that?
There
is a previous version of Trump
that
there, was
some blinking
away some neurons
saying
that this
is a
battle.
It was an
absolutely explicit part of his appeal to the American people wasn't, it was
no more forever wars in the Middle East.
And that's what we were talking about checks and balances on him.
How much of a check and balance on him is the MAGA base and those voters.
I, I suppose he, if he's not standing for another election, then personally he's
got nothing to lose from annoying those
people.
But,
he has stuffed JD Vance quite
heavily with this.
So the vice president is,
known to be America first and isolation is very much of
that tendency.
he served
in in Iraq and it's
really made
quite
hard for fans to run as the vice presidential incumbent
in 2028,
having been so overwhelmingly humiliated
on his,
one of his signature
policy
positions.
There
we
have it, the thinnest
silver
lining
imaginable
on an otherwise
enormous
cloud.
I was
about to say
he's really nuked JD
Vance's prospects,
and I
thought
that's
not the
happiest.
he'll be back in nine months, 20, Yeah.
Just to pick up on Adam's point is only seven servicemen have died to
date, only seven American servicemen.
So obviously large numbers of other people have died.
But
aren't
unpopular wars in America, wars in which American servicemen die?
so far and I'm not being callous And you couldn't be more callous than Trump.
Yeah.
people die.
It happens in wars.
There we go.
I thought quite a jaw dropping speech, but so
far
it's
not
losses that will make the war
unpopular.
The thing that is really toxic for him is the sense of the MAGA
base going, why don't you care about the same things that we care
about?
and, and it is now a very
popular conspiracy theory that he did this as he does everything to
get away from the Epstein files.
and that is
a, it's a
fringe belief, but it's still
quite
a lively one
among some sections of the base.
And then for swing
voters, there were people who voted for Trump because inflation
was really high and
they were having difficulty buying stuff, and they didn't
mind all the other mad stuff that he was doing.
They just didn't like what Biden was doing.
those people are
not diehard
committed
maga headss.
They're people who
want a
functional US economy.
And
at
the moment, he seems to be interested in everything
but their gas prices,
for
example.
And again, he's telling them, he's saying this is a small price to
pay, for not having a nuclear Iran.
This.
is in One of his latest speeches.
And You're thinking what, so you're admitting today that
this war is going to cost the US
taxpayer
money.
Yeah.
If
you are, a recently minted crypto billionaire, probably
lots of things look like a small price
pay,
don't they?
Yes.
In terms of the MAGA base, what are their feelings about Israel?
'cause traditionally the Republican party thing has been very much Israel, right
or wrong way behind them all the way.
There's a sort of feeling with this one that if
Israel took America into this with them.
It's a sort of continuation of with
the attacks on, Hezbollah in Beirut as well.
It feels like a continuation of one of the eight walls that he's, he said he's
already finished as well, doesn't it?
I'm
really
interested in this
because I think
it's undercover.
So on the American right, there has been a lot of discourse since October the
seventh about the fact that the left is, has been overtaken by basically
hammer supporting cafe wearing students,
and
that this is a driving
force of antisemitism in the us.
Actually,
there's
a mirror image of that happening on the right.
So one of the big stars among Gen Z staffers in Washington, they will
admit to watching Nick Fuentes, who is self-described Christian
nationalist, a Holocaust denier, openly
antisemitic a and somebody who,
for that reason is very critical of the US Military Alliance.
With
Israel
and saying that he would now vote Democrat.
he's a
troll, he's an internet troll, but he does represent something which is that there is
a big
part of the institutional class, the younger institutional class
that doesn't see the US Israel Alliance as being something that
is completely unquestionable
and sacrosanct.
And
that has huge implications in American politics,
for example, because apac, which is the pro-Israeli funding organization,
is really influential in lots of, congressional races, lots of
political races, it funds candidates.
and it has a very, specific set of demands about what it think, what thinks
that, those candidates should say if it's prepared
to back them.
And you will already beginning to
see candidates backing away slightly
on
both
turning money
down.
so Gavin Newsom is a really interesting example.
He's
obviously got his eyes on 2028 as a
democratic contender.
He's currently governor of California.
He
said last week that,
and he phrased it as someone else saying it, but
he said other people have described Israel as
an apartheid state.
Now in
American politics, this used to be the kind of
thing that had people
reaching
for the,
the gin and the clutching their pearls that this was a
completely unthinkable unsayable
thing to
say,
but it's not anymore.
And then the mirror image of that is on the right.
You will have people like very influential
commentators like Tucker Carlson,
who are incredibly
critical of Israel and actually have built up quite
a
fan
base in places like
Qatar and Saudi Arabia, because of their willingness to say that.
already
we knew that popular opinion in America had moved away from Israel and now that
is finding its outlet in some of the elite commentators and some of the kind
of niche and underground commentators.
So I think you're right.
I think that this
sequence of events
will drive those people even further into the
arms of
why does Israel dictate the US foreign policy?
That's why Marco Rubio came
out
kinda
cleaned
up
his,
statements
because
that is a toxic thing
to have
said to not to quite
a number of people in American
political
life.
And again, it seems a bit of a u-turn from, back in, God,
it's only January, isn't it?
When they, went into Venezuela, but then the justification of that was, this is
all about the Don Row doctrine, which is saying that the Western hemisphere
is, part of the Americas are what we're gonna be focusing on now, which
is make the Americas great again, But then suddenly, yeah, no straight
screeching, reverse ferret into, more war in the Middle East does seem
quite a,
turnaround.
It makes no sense.
And I think people have tried to drive themselves mad in the
last week trying to
make
this make
no
sense.
And I think if you
just go, just imagine
he's Cula and he's made his horse a senator.
Hang on.
Was that him?
or Was
that
Tiberius?
No, it was and
was ULA Console,
yeah.
See, the one thing we can't get wrong on this
podcast is classics,
isn't it?
it?
I knew
it's like me saying
a Venus insufficiency.
I should have said, he does need more love, but he doesn't need more war.
but I didn't
make it
clear.
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna do one deliberate error about either Roman
history or the
Second World War in every podcast.
Just
to keep
everyone on
their
toes.
Thank you.
you.
we
should come now to the most important question that the war on Iran
has raised,
which is why oh, Y is K Starman not invading
immediately?
I think that's, that, that's the official British media
stance, isn't it?
Or most
of us.
So
would you, like to
guess what percentage
of people in Britain, according to a recent Ugo poll, describe
themselves as being pro-Trump?
What percentage of Britain's are
pro-Trump?
Oh, it'll be triple figures.
but
which I mean three, right?
3%.
Yeah.
where was this poll conducted Inside
the
Telegraph
office.
Well,
Rather
different
It comes how many?
13.
1
3. Wow,
Wow.
for some.
I
thought
it was.
Yes.
I thought it would
be.
Below
10 and 67%
against.
And then
a
lot of people
going as ever
in
a poll going, who?
and people.
really associate reform.
Voters are more pro-Trump than everyone else.
Conservative Labour, green, whatever, FSMP, whatever it might be.
And they also, people think
of
them
as
being
war
pro-Trump.
it's not entirely surprising given that their leader rushed
over to Marra Largo last week.
No, no signal.
The war had broken out to try and have dinner with Trump, didn't he?
And got
stood
up.
Poor old Nigel.
He'd taken
his GB news film
crew with him and everything.
And
yeah,
if he'd just
booked
it
for
a
wedding,
he'd
have
had a
handshake.
He'd
have been allowed
to
peek
behind the curtain he's got no political
strategy
at
all.
But
this has been a really big thing in the last week.
is lots
of the
traditional British press, by which I mean mostly print media, telegraph
time, so on, say running articles.
I'm just gonna quote a few headlines here.
Stama has made Britain irrelevant.
Stama must not equivocate on
Iran.
What's the point of having aircraft carriers if we aren't prepared
to use
them
to
do
what is not made clear?
But there is this drumbeat saying, we must absolutely right or wrong support
America in this
and saying, Stan can't sit on
the fence.
What actually emerges is that lots of people want Stan
to sit on the fence on this
and
think
that's broadly the correct position.
And lots
of people are opposed.
49% were opposed to the attack on Iran as opposed to 28 in favor.
it's,
reasonably clear public opinion in the uk, but that has not
made it through to the papers.
the Daily Mail in particular, did you see that headline last week?
Starer Takes The Great Outta
Britain and I just thought, this is very old for a newspaper that presumably
still thinks of itself as patriotic to be piling in with another international
leader who's been insulting our prime minister and taking his side on it, it
just seemed, a very bizarre position to be, and desperate and deluded was their
front page headline about Stama when, as you say, I think he's pretty much taking
a position that most of the British public or majority of them would think was quite
a
sensible
one.
And you said to me the Daily Mail was marvelous in
invoking
the spirit of the other great wartime leader, Sironi Blair,
who the male used to not think of
as
particularly marvelous.
That was the most extraordinary thing.
You had the male on Sunday headline saying, Blair, says we should have
gone in at the first, at the first moment you said, you say, guy,
guys,
do you remember?
You don't like him.
You really, don't like him.
And you've been saying for, decades.
What a disaster.
believing America and going into Iraq was, it's extraordinary.
even more recently than that, do you remember when Obama, was supposedly
interfered in the Brexit vote and said we'd be at the back of the queue?
Do you remember all of the op-eds, from people, saying, oh, how dare
this American interfere in order to, they managed to find, their backbones
there and be a bit patriotic about it.
But no, we seem to have gone over entirely into, let's just be the 51st state now,
according to
certain
newspapers.
But
you, Adam, you have a very convincing
theory
as
to
why,
The key thing about what's happening with a lot of, particularly our right-wing
press at the moment, is that internet advertising is a lot more lucrative
in America than it is in Britain.
Which is why the strategy of most of our British newspapers over the last five
years or so has been to set up hack posts in a couple of 'em were ahead of it.
The mail online was ahead of it.
The Guardian was long ahead of it setting up operations in America.
But all of the others have kinda been piling resources into,
New York offices and America facing websites ever since then.
And I think that's because these days actual, print papers are largely a sort of
afterthought and it's all digital first.
That whole mindset I think of facing an American audience is starting to filter
back entirely into kind of the editorial line that they're taking even on the
kind of British
facing
stuff.
Yeah.
So we've gone very, we've gone very mago basically.
we are, British newspapers are now semi
American
products.
it's, As
soon as
you
pointed out, it's quite hard not to
notice
it anymore.
It's
fascinating.
The
telegraph itself is absolutely seeing itself as a, we did a story in, in,
street of shame couple weeks ago.
The Telegraph have earned themselves a place in the White House press
room, which they never had before.
If it was a little, seat at the back, which they have to share
with one of the online analysts.
But they are in there and they were one of us.
the Telegraph were amongst many, people last week who appeared to be
able just to phone Donald Trump up on his personal mobile and just have
a chat to him and say, would you wanna slag off our Prime Minister?
yes, I'd be very clever Wouldn.
You print
that?
Yes,
of course
I
will.
Oh, it's even
worse than that When the son phoned him up.
They seemed
to
have
fed
him
the
line
So they said something like, do you think he's just doing this because he's
worried about losing the Muslim vote?
Basically Is he afraid of offending Muslims and Trump
went, yes, I do think that's probably is why it is.
And then
sure
enough,
that
was
the
splash.
You can't ask leading questions
in a British courtroom, can you?
But you can if you're speaking
to the
leader
of
the free world.
I did think, I thought that was a bit of a rum thing and I
thought,
no, it you shouldn't be
be to
trick
the
US
president
just, before we say that we should, can I just put in a word
for the journalist concern too, is it's very objective.
it was, it was Harry Cole and it was part of his podcast, which
is titled Harry Cole Saves the
West.
So
absolutely
he's
going
into this
objective.
Andy's Furious.
This Podcast
isn't
called
Saves the West.
You
You can try
and Save The West.
Isn't that what
Liz
Trust's
book
was
called?
Yeah.
10
years To save,
the
West.
She didn't specify who
would
be doing it,
but I dunno if you remember, Liz Trust didn't actually manage to do it.
So
No, I was thinking how embarrassing to have taken the title
of
your product from
these
times.
But that's
a very good example of the phenomenon you're talking about, Which
is that Harry was political editor
of the Sum for a really long time
and he's
now
got
an American facing online show.
So
his audience is,
the MAGA
base.
Whereas even people on the British, Rite And just not in that
reflexively pro-American place
that,
the
MAGA
people
are.
Yeah.
the Telegraph certainly used to be the paper of the kind of buffed and tufts
and the retired colonels and things who are mostly popping up now to say,
you're not
terribly
wise, we're going into another war in the middle of this.
we haven't
really
got
the resources
for this.
but just being ignored in this kind
of
no,
And
the BS and a lot of sympathy for them pointing out that, the running
down of the British arms forces can't entirely be laid at the feet of Kma.
Given we've had 14 years
of
the Conservative party not funding them.
the fact that there isn't a Navy, and that the Army is as the eyes repeatedly point
out, has had it's outsourcing, volunteer,
and
recruiting divisions, given to someone else, means that it's almost
entirely
ineffective.
But there
does seem to be this willful thing of not learning from history anymore.
I wonder if this is part of the, the, con
the
war on woke.
'cause we've been told for years and years by, a lot of these right wing
papers that, this, terrible thing that people want to, focus on slavery
and the bad things that Empire didn't naturally empire was marvelous.
But it now seems to have will been extended to, about 2003, doesn't it?
But we've decided to just rewrite that one as, a complete, in fact,
would you like to play a game of 2003
or
2026?
Yes.
Iraq
or
Iran.
Okay.
I'm
gonna
read
you some
quote,
the Subedit Nightmare
You have to guess
2006 or
2003.
This is
brilliant.
It's
It's Iraqi,
ui.
that's the one.
British
spies are part of a deep cover operation to track down chemical weapons, which
could be used in attacks on neighboring countries such as Israel and Dubai.
The mail on Sunday can
reveal
the intelligence officers are working with American counterparts inside the
country to locate sites which have been identified as potential hiding places
for
nerve
agents.
2026.
Yeah.
2026.
It was last Sunday.
Yep.
Glen
in, in
the
mail
on
Sunday.
I've, I
love that.
It sounded
so
do though the
chemical
agents,
intelligent sources, talking about
chemical
weapons
and
nerve
agents.
I'm
wearing skinny jeans.
I'm listening
to
the
Strokes,
it's
all coming
back.
blitzes
in
the news again.
Yes.
Chemical
alley.
He's
back.
Yep.
Another one.
This is, this is an editorial.
Britain remains a bridge between America and Europe, even though
it spans have been stretched to breaking point by the current crisis.
It should be a matter of pride that we who share so much in terms of democratic
ideals with the great English speaking power across the Atlantic should
have
stood
shoulder
to shoulder with
it.
Genuinely cannot
tell.
2026
I'll
say
nope.
2003. As the daily telegraph on why we need to be right in their
shoulder to shoulder with George W.
Bush, Britain is left muttering about due process, nitpicking over
niceties, proclaiming its loyalty to a legal, order that others have
abandoned far from making us look noble.
It makes us look
fatuous, shifty
and
unreliable.
2003.
2026.
Ah,
Dan Hanan,
The man who
is reliably wrong about everything in the Sunday Telegraph last weekend.
One more.
An abject lesson in making a laughing stock of Britain.
The prime minister's slow and inept response, placed Brit Britons in
harm's way other Nations acted rapidly to evacuate their people.
When it did act, its charter plane broke down and spent 10 hours on the runway.
A good thing the foreign office wasn't in charge on D-Day, the Prime Minister
was utterly misguided from the start.
It raises the question, who on earth
is
advising him?
That's gotta
be 2026.
Surely the
Dubai mention Surely
No,
that one's
2011
after.
And it's The Daily
Mail
talking
about
Libya,
Oh.
Libya,
want just
one bonus question.
who said last week when commenting on Donald Trump's justification, one of
his justifications to the war, Trump said if we didn't hit within two weeks,
they would've had a nuclear weapon.
Who said of that he lies so often
that
he
doesn't
know
the
difference
anymore.
Is,
it,
Is
it,
Alistair
Campbell?
It is Chemical Alley Campbell.
It's indeed, yes.
The man of 45 minute WMDs dodgy dossier fame.
So yeah.
Wow.
We are not learning
from
history.
We
can't
be
bothered
anymore.
can I bring us on to another element of the British coverage because
so much of the war has been, about
energy, what it's gonna do to oil and gas prices.
They've
risen enormously, over the last week, in particular oil, but
gas is creeping up as well.
So a large element
of this discussion has been,
what Britain should do in response to this.
Can
anyone
guess
the prescription
that's gone out far
wide about
how we
this?
Is
it heat
pumps?
It's
not,
No.
Oh, Is
it
just
drive
less?
it's
drill,
baby drill.
Oh,
wow.
The
reaction has been,
let's
drill the North Sea, which no one has thought to do
over
the last 50 years.
one example, Claire Catino, the conservative shadow energy
secretary, has been out there saying,
you know,
north Sea.
Ed Miller Band is a dangerous fantasist.
We need to repeal the climate Change act and
get
cracking.
to
be fair, she was saying that
before
the
war
with
Round as
well,
Oh yeah.
And she was wrong then.
So
don't you
worry
she's wrong then.
She's wrong now.
She's remained consistent, which I do respect her for.
So
I've been
speaking
to
a few people about basically the reality of this.
So would it
interest you to have
a,
little bit of context about this
whole
discussion?
'cause it'll happen
a lot
over the
next
few
months.
Your,
heat
pump time
has
hasn't It
really?
It
certainly
has the Soler panels.
How's your electric charging and
your cross pavement charging
solution
working out
for you?
Tip top,
yeah.
The price
of the sunshine hitting my roof has not rocketed, tenfold, which is
nice.
So
be smuggler have sunshine
No, I know.
time.
the
way it's been discussed in particular in
the papers even today is
that we've got two days of gas supplies
left in this
country.
This
a
disaster it's
absolutely not.
This is how
the industry works under normal circumstances.
Most of
our
gas
does not come from the Middle East,
It's about
10%
at most.
Most of it comes from Norway, it comes from the North Sea, some comes from
America.
But we, are not
reliant
for
the actual supply
of it
on the Middle East.
The
problem is, of course, it's globally traded.
It, The price will
rocket basically
because of these shortages.
if this goes on for several months, there will be
a concern about how we get
that last eight
10%
replaced.
Because
Britain's really reliant
on gas.
We use it for heating a lot of our homes
in
a way that,
most
other countries don't.
that is potentially
a problem there.
But that's,
if this last
several months, the
actual supply of it in terms of
how
the North Sea might change
the prices,
it's
almost
completely irrelevant.
That's the thing.
So
people say, anyone who says to you,
we
should
drill
the North
Sea,
it,
equivalent to.
your Heroin dealer has raised prices a great deal.
Should you
growing your
own poppies?
The
answer is to get off
heroin
rather than
So is that because
it would now cost a huge amount to extract.
What's
still there.
It's,
gone
or
isn't there
it is a really what they
call a
mature basin.
Claire continue has been saying, oh, Norway has been finding
a lot.
The, amounts they've been finding are up practically
in the
Arctic Circle.
What
is left on the UK
Shelf?
It, is pretty
well done.
It does.
And do
we not
own the
Arctic
Circle?
Afraid not.
No.
not
anymore.
it?
Seriously.
honest.
if I was writing
a,
leader in a popular paper now
I
would say in another
blow to Stama, we failed to
invade
the
Arctic
quick.
Donald Trump's looking
in another direction.
Let's take
Greenland.
Yeah.
so
the
thing is, Adam, you've been talking about short memories.
We have been
through something very, similar
four
years ago,
Russia invades Ukraine.
Yep.
Prices spiked enormously.
Attempts were made then
to increase the supply of
gas and bring it down.
Prices still went up 15 fold.
So
you, cannot north see your way outta this.
so
what
can we
do?
the government has a lot of
opportunities
to say
this
is a
crisis.
you look at countries like Spain, which
have hugely increased their renewable
capacity.
They haven't been affected by quite the same, spike in
prices.
So the government can make a lot of sort of quick decisions to signal,
whether that's we
need to electrify our home heating, we need to electrify our transport.
These are things
we can
do with domestic supply.
countries
mostly have this thing of, have you heard
of the
energy trimmer?
No.
that's such
a
great
phrase, we're
about to
I'm afraid
you
are good.
There are three things you've got to choose between when you're getting
your energy supply.
You want it to be cheap.
you want it to be secure
and ideally you'd
like
it to
be
low
carbon.
But
loads and loads of countries
have said, look, we've got cheap and pretty secure, fossil, so we're not
so
fussed
about it
being low carbon.
Yeah.
In
a
world
in
which
These
things
are no longer
cheap or
secure,
and
where China is waiting saying, would you like
some batteries
and Soler panels?
That really changes the discussion.
And what's gonna happen, I think, globally is that lots of countries
will scramble for extra supplies
and
many will get them.
Countries which have a bit less money
to, spend
won't.
This is places
like Pakistan,
which don't have abundant natural resources.
And when Russia invaded
Ukraine and,
gas
prices spiked
enormously.
Pakistan was absolutely left
in the lurch.
What that
led to two years later is Pakistan importing an enormous
number of Soler panels.
And in fact this year
they've canceled lots
of gas shipments.
'cause they said, we just can't take on that much gas.
We don't need it anymore because China
was there waiting
to
provide supply.
So
this
was all very different in the oil price shock,
nearly 50
years ago.
It's, there are now alternatives
which,
superpower
is
hoping to
supply.
That's
so interesting to me because again, I think there's a difference
between some of the legacy media
treatment of it, which
is that net zero is a ridiculous thing and super silly and whatever, and the
reform belief, it should still be rolled
back versus
the view of lots of other people around the world that this is
coming to an end like
this.
The era of fossil fuels
is coming to an end
and
not least among Saudi Arabia,
the producer
of
an enormous amount of them, right, where
you'll hear the Crown
Prince talk about how he's got
to
find something
else for the country to do
in
a
post fossils fuel future.
Another example, Cuba,
which might be next on the invasion
list.
It's
certainly been
blockaded for, America's
just turned
off the oil taps,
Cuba's now
importing a lot
of Chinese Soler panels in an attempt.
they're really struggling,
planes are struggling
to refuel in Cuba.
They want to keep the lights on.
The one
downside is that lots of, big renewable projects take a lot
of upfront investment and if
inflation is
very high, then
an interest rate is very
high.
It's
harder
to
fund them.
But
in the long run, oil suppliers don't want
their stuff to
be inaccessible
to lots of people.
They'd like the price kept
at
a
reasonable
level where
they make a lot of money
and,
people
can afford to actually buy it and they're
not desperately
casting around
for
alternatives.
And I think old Sparky
will
be returning
to this theme
in,
the
magazine.
Ian, I presume
that when this issue went
to press, you were thinking it
would have
something about the Gordon
and
Denton
by-election
on the
front.
I
did.
I had a
particularly fine joke about, the plumber winning a by election, and I could, put
the joke, the system is broken, on Then
I thought,
that,
would do
for
the front
by
Monday.
Yeah.
it didn't feel like it was the biggest story in the world, which is
a great shame, because it was really interesting, not I think, in ways
that a lot of the press covered it.
this
is
extraordinary.
Nothing
like
this
has
ever
happened before,
which again, it has quite frequently, that is what happens in by elections.
And George Galloway must have been sitting
there
thinking.
what do
you
mean?
I've, done exactly this at least twice.
How dare anyone say this is a new tactic by the Greens?
I've
set up
new parties,
I've
gone for
this vote, I've won.
So
there was a sort of,
feeling that
the
story had been somewhat missed but we didn't really have
time to go into it enough.
So
I
think
we
could
have
a
quick
look
now.
Yeah.
And, this is really the short memory episode, isn't
it?
We got a lot
of short memories all over
the place.
So black
back to 2003, 2022,
and
now
does
George
Galloway week
before
last.
week.
Before
last,
yeah.
Yeah.
So I
suppose the
question it
brings is,
Star
by
screwed?
this
is a seat with a
re pretty
big Labour majority
that's just
been completely overturned
by the Greens
with a very charismatic local candidate who,
was a very
winning plumber who kept doing a plastering course throughout the campaign.
Because,
you
know what, if she didn't
win the election, it
just, that
she was clearly very popular and liked
and the message was
quite
convincing
at, and she was up against Matt Goodwin, who
clearly
wasn't
very
popular Yes, very
well we
should say for non-New junkies
who
Matt
Goodwin is
as well.
he's
a
man
with an unfortunate surname when he
then goes and loses elections
who takes
it
very
badly.
He
was
both a reform
candidate and I think probably at the time of, recording
the UK's most popular political
substack.
But
that's
only
because Hannah Spencer MP
doesn't
have
a
substack I presume.
No.
she, was, I mean she was brilliant
on social media and I think that,
the, Green Party
generally under Zach Polanski has
incredibly opted
its game.
and I think you're
right,
Ian.
The reason that I
think people panicked and freaked out it, particularly
on the right, was they thought if there are
angry
voters
who are rebelling against
the system and the establishment IE Labour,
then the repository for those votes
is
reform.
And then it turns out, actually
no, there's a left
wing version of that.
And then
people, if they
are angry
with Labour and still aren't willing to give the conservatives a look,
there's
another
party out there with just
a very, different
set of
political
priorities that
they might
also
go
to.
cause I remember sitting, with you guys recording a podcast about a year ago
and saying, my feeling was that there are as many people out there who are as
repulsed by Nigel Farage and Reform and will do anything to keep them out as
there are people who are going for the message that he's peddling out there.
And I think this election has proved that in a way it was in a lot of cases.
I'm not, yes, the greens are doing fantastically well.
They're very appealing in terms of the social media stuff and all the
stuff they're doing under Zach Lansky.
But I think a lot of people would, the dilemma for them in Gorton and
Denton was finding which candidate was most likely to keep, reform out.
And I think that's probably gonna be where the battleground is now in.
The ne next few coming by elections and, in the next general election it's gonna
be a case of reform versus whoever,
whoever is most likely to keep
reform
out.
Would
you
agree
with
that?
There was a very telling
instance, so Rob Ford, who's
the professor of politics
at University of Manchester, did a
blog
that ran through all the different options and he said, there's a part of Victory
for the Greens, but they need to be the
alternative to reform.
And
sure enough, this got
slapped all over their leaflets with if you don't want reform,
vote
Green says politic.
And he complained and said, that's actually not what I said.
But it
was a classic version of, most of us who are
politics nerds will know the concept
of the Lib Dem bar
chart.
Right.
Which
is mysteriously like,
Lib Dems can win here.
And you find out that the
axis has been massively manipulated.
But that's exactly, you're right, Adam,
is that it became a reform versus
not reform.
fight.
And the interesting thing is that lesson
is that could be a very effective way of doing politics.
The 2025 election
was a Torries versus not the Torries and
voters
were very good
at
tactical voting and sorting
themselves.
Are you in
a seat
where
actually
the Lib Dems are the best challenges to the
Torries?
when there's maybe
West of England seats, is
it, is it, gonna
be Labour the best
place to get the Tories out or is it gonna be reform?
And
something similar happened here?
And if you look
at all the,
the polling
on issues reform
voters are very distinct from everyone else.
They don't
have a lot of overlap on social, issues with other people.
They're in their own kind of block.
So there is a kind of left block that people can move through.
And people who were Labour voters
in 2025
are not
gonna find it particularly hard to end up as green
voters.
Whereas it's gonna be harder for those
reform
to capture any extra
people.
They've, they can cannibalize the conservative vote, but some of the people
who
are now
still voting conservative are unlikely.
they're more
likely to be, perhaps, more likely to be socially liberal
or
don't believe in like the triple lock or whatever it
might be.
Which then makes it very hard
for them to be eaten by reform.
So that the
thing that
political scientists say
that they think
about reform is that they probably have a, they have a kind of
high floor, but a low ceiling.
in the
sense of actually when it comes to it, the next section will be
about whether or not Labour can
squeeze.
How
hard
can
they can squeeze
them.
Any estate agent will
tell you having
a high floor and
a
low ceiling
is,
is
is very bad
If you're six
foot three.
Definitely.
Yeah.
estate
agent would
say
it's a,
new form of
living.
and It'll
cost
you
over a
million.
Perfect.
For ho agent,
you've ever
met.
and I think, Perfect
for
horizontal
living.
yeah, Yeah,
I think,
I think I should attribute this
to Ben,
Ley.
Professor
Oxford.
He's, He, talks about the fact there's basically a left
block and a right block in
British politics.
And that's the way we've gotta see it there.
Fish.
There are two pools that people are
fishing in and Labour is
doing this awkward straddling, which is why that so many of them were
unhappy with Morgan McSweeney's, ki Downer's chief of staff.
'cause
he felt they
were spending too much time going after reform
voters.
So
traditionally
white working class baby boomers
in
those north of England
constituencies in Wales
at
the expense of younger, more socially
liberal pro-European voters
that they were losing anywhere.
else.
And the
feeling is that Labour has been
quite complacent about there aren't enough of those people
and they're quite geographically
concentrated.
It's
'cause
it's studenty
places.
We
studenty faces.
We don't
and
just wanna win Brighton and London.
Is that what they're saying?
Yeah.
Or Bristol or
wherever it might
be.
But actually we'll be,
we'll really
get a sense in the local elections in May about the fact that if there are
lots of people who want somewhere to
defect from Labour to, is,
are
they gonna go to reform or are some
of these
people
gonna go to parties on Lib Dem?
the
Greens in Scotland, the SMP.
And the same thing
with I think the Welsh elections will be a very interesting
reform
versus anti-reform.
co. I was interested in her,
victory speech in which she said working hard in this
country used to mean something.
And I.
thought,
which
party
is
that?
it could be more or less anyone.
and traditionally you'd expect that to be a
Tory, or, a Labour person trying
to attract a Tory No, it's the green candidate who has a job.
proper job.
plumber, does stuff.
that people like.
that is that workers and shiers argument from the 2015 election.
Absolutely.
Is, I'm actually, when I
say
that,
I
can't
remember
whether that was, ed Miller
David
that
was
pushing
that
particular
line.
Osborne in
particular.
Oh, was
it?
Okay.
Were the workers part of alarm
clock
Britain
or
was
that
just
about
managing?
alarm
program?
No,
alarm Crop Britain is
Nick
Flagg.
Sorry.
And
just
about
managing
is
Ed
Miller
ironically didn't have to say his
alarm clock
block after the
election,
and quiet bat
people
is
the
thick
of
it.
which
not
get
confused.
with.
think
that's about managing is
Teresa
Mate
the squeezed middle.
Squeeze
is Ed Miller
Band.
You're
right.
But they're all identifying
the
same thing,
which is
people who are
economically insecure.
And the interesting thing is that we've been used to thinking
that as people who are
in, de-industrialized
parts of perhaps Northern England.
Actually now it applies to 30 something graduates paying back their loans at 9%
of their salary,
unable to get
on the housing ladder
thinking, what
is the point?
Like, when do I get to settle
down and have a family?
And all those things I've been told
constitute
a good life.
Yeah.
and those
are, that's
the pool that
the Greens have been incredibly
good appealing to.
They've
got
that novelty value as well, which is what Nigel Farage had.
That's what stood him so far was he was one of these people who didn't
feel like a normal politician and felt like he was an outsider coming in.
But then Zach Polansky has
then got exactly
the same problem that Nigel Farra had a couple of years ago.
Which is how do you staff all the positions?
How do you make it more than just you?
But yeah, I think he's learned a lot from what has worked for Nigel Farage, which
is both having a pop at the mainstream
media and saying
they're all, a haters say against us, always works really well for
populist politicians, but at the same time, making yourself really
available.
Sack ancy has gone out
and done a
lot of stuff.
Think about the number of interviews he's done versus,
say, Kemi Badnock,
right?
He's just a lot
more visible.
He's out there and yes, he might
get into sticky situations when he goes on the rest
of his politics or whatever, but
fundamentally.
he's
just there
in people's faces in a very fractured
media environment, in a way that I think you know that.
But neither kiss Sam nor Kemi badnock, nor even really
Ed
Davey
for all his
I
say
I
don't
mean that,
do I
Waterboarding?
He's
boarding?
waterboarding
at Thought Park, falling off
paddle
Yes.
Yeah.
The
waterboarding
at
Thought Park.
Yeah.
is a
worst day I ever.
that
could be
an
American
base
by the time this
podcast
goes
out.
okay.
So
we
come
back to his ki screwed?
Yes.
Helen,
you've
been telling
me
for
ages,
Nigel
Re is
gonna
be
the
next
Prime
Minister.
I say that we should be very open to the possibility
because
there
have been huge swings and this was a, a
massive swing to
the greens
with the reform in
second and Labour in third,
and in what was previously a
really
great
seat
And the key problem
Absolutely.
Labour seat.
Yeah.
Was that, there were, there was a large constituency of quite
socially conservative Muslims.
There was another bit of the seat that.
Was, white graduates essentially.
Now
those are two groups that have,
some things in common, but actually electorally, you'd
imagine want
different things.
And for one party to be able
to get 40%
of the vote outta that seat is quite impressive and a big
problem for Labour.
'cause it
doesn't say that there's one weird trick that they, why
don't you
just be meaner to immigrants?
Might win you back some of those people.
But none of those people, why don't we be more
liberal
on
social
issues?
that's gonna
turn
off some
of those people.
Where
do
you go?
both of them United, by the way, one of the few
things they're united on is Gaza to take
us right back to the start.
Both the kind of,
white college graduates and socially conservative Muslim voters,
both
of them very
worried about
Britain's
involvement
in
war in the
Middle
East.
So that, that was something that, that
Zach Polanski Pumped
quite
hard
during,
but it can't all be about that.
Can I, Badu came out immediately and said, actually, this is all down to
the Muslim vote and down to family voting and corruption and, everything.
But if you're gonna get a load of socially conservative Muslims to vote for a woman
candidate and an openly gay Jewish leader,
that's
a
hell
of
an achievement,
isn't
it?
Yeah.
It just
Just briefly, that they wrote, ran a very good
campaign
that spoke to people on the issues that they cared about.
That said,
there
are bits of
that campaign
I didn't like.
okay.
And the same way that
I think that reform quite often play white grievance
politics.
I don't like the Green party putting out adverts, which is showing Stan
with
Modi
to
say
look
at
him hanging
out
with Indian
Hindus.
And then
Netanyahu to say, look at him hanging out with a
Jew.
That
to me
is pressing a button that
I don't really want people carving up Britain
into different ethnicities.
and tailoring Their
message.
Differently
Or,
on
religious
sectarian grounds.
Yeah.
that's the Zack Goldsmith
going
for
London
Mayor,
tactic
isn't.
It
absolutely,
yes.
Uming.
Was
Hindu family
saying,
he's gonna take Yes,
is coming for your
gold.
He'll take your
gold.
Exactly.
I
find it
a continuation, of the fact that there are people who are
madly obsessed with Sadik Kahn,
that
he's trying to impose Sharia Law in Britain and just
say, just because he's a Muslim, I think you need, that's all
you need to know
about him.
That
kind
of
politics
is
really show some
some respect.
Helen, That's the president of
the
SA,
you're
talking
about
him
here.
really
really ugly,
wherever
it comes from, so Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
yeah.
But they've, correctly identified
that talking
about boring old green
stuff.
is
not
especially interesting
when someone cares about the heat
pump?
Well,
look for, listeners of the podcast, there was a section
which Andy was talking
about
energy,
but
we've
cut
it.
Oh no,
Oh no.
Kamy Badnock conservative's got 1.9% of the vote.
And that I think shows that she's done the
work
of
reducing
the
vote
to
its core
and
you
can
build
from
that.
And her reaction was
to
say
on.
theist Armor
is
finished.
Yes.
I Love that.
It
was
brilliant.
Mi
It by
a
lot
of
the
press.
I
mean
you pointed this
out
but
Yeah.
Hab star,
what's the
deposit.
Alright.
We
should
end
this
al of
gloating
and
we haven't even done Dubai influencers.
Imagine such
a
thing.
Andy.
I look all the
gloating
that
I've
got
pent
up
inside
me,
We
get big views
on
YouTube
in
from
Dubai.
Okay.
I'll say nothing.
Yeah.
I've always loved the UAE
and I believe
that
everything
they
do
is
great.
Absolutely.
I know
who
protects.
us.
You have to say that
when
you
moved to
Dubai,
which
you've revealed where we're broadcasting
from, where the bunker is.
That is
it
for this episode of page 94.
Thank you so much for listening
and for watching.
If you
would like to get a copy of Private Eye,
it's available in your local news agent and if you'd like to get a subscription,
it is
available@privatehypheni.co uk
The
latest issue of the magazine has
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Grim, our
human rights correspondent, about what life has been
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TOAs, and under the regime.
And it's
got plenty more, fantastic coverage,
fantastic jokes, fantastic cartoons.
It's a fantastic magazine
and the price has not spiked tenfold yet.
So
rush out and get
it right
now.
Thanks to Ian, Helen, and Adam,
and thanks
once again to Matt Hill of Rethink
Audio
producing.
Bye
for
now.