>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and, where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today, I'm speaking to Antonia.

Antonia shares her journey of healing from

childhood abuse, how her faith both broke and

rebuilt her trust, and the way that God has shown

up through community courage. And Antonia's story

is going to be shared in two parts. In this first

part, she shares about how being challenged led

her to action and created what is now called

LOUDfence. For me, it's a reminder of how a small

action can lead to something greater. What Antonia

shares can be difficult to hear, and if you've

been affected by her story please do look at the

links that we've shared and hopefully some way it

can support you.

So, Antonia, what was your experience of growing

up in the church?

>> Antonia: This is the thing. My experiences were golden. So

my background is that I am a survivor of familial

abuse from the age of seven. And when you are in a

situation like that, you don't have anybody to

compare notes with. So you think that what's

happening to you is only happening to you. And

you, you especially my, my abuser, he told me,

you're the one who's having this effect on me and

you're the one who's making me do this to you. So

that kind of made me really shut down. I carried

an awful lot of shame. And also I believe that if,

if I, if there was something about me that was

making someone abuse me, then I was the problem

and I shouldn't talk to anyone. So I was really

shut down. And I think that if you make it,

because there's some one, somebody somewhere who

loves you and supports you. And for me, that was

my, my parish priest, Father Damien, growing up.

So, he was my friend and mentor and teacher, and

he was an art fanatic and A Marianologist. So he

would spend ages talking to all of us about fine

arts and art history. you know, he's dead,

unfortunately, but I, still have a bucket list of,

of things and of, of art that I have to go and

look at because, you know, I can still hear him

talking about it and saying, isn't this amazing?

Isn't this wonderful? So that's, that's what it

was like for me growing up in the church. And I

think it's because I had this vision of what the

church is really supposed to be like that drives

me on to do what I do, really.

>> Julia: And can you tell us a bit about how your healing

journey began?

>> Antonia: Well, I suppose if I. It's kind of been an odd

journey because I, I could never tell Father

Damien about what happened, but the fact that he

was there and he accompanied me made all the

difference in the world. He never knew it, but he

actually made a huge difference. And so I, I grew

up. I was lucky that I met a wonderful man and, I

got married and had three children. And so if I

fast forward to 2018, you know, I'm a mother of

three and I remember coming home one evening, I've

been helping out at Brownies and it's one of those

watershed moments, you know, like everyone

remembers where they were when they heard that

Lady Diana died. It was one of those things for

me. So I came home, got the kids to bed and I put

the 10 o' clock news on. And, at 10 o' clock in

the evening, I was a practising Catholic. And at

12 minutes past 10, my, my whole world had just

completely ceased as I understood it, because the

Pennsylvania grand jury report into child abuse in

the Catholic Church over there states came on. And

for me, it was just incomprehensible what I heard.

I knew that there had to be abusers in the church

because there's abuses everywhere. It's where

there are people, there is abuse. But for me, the

thing that I couldn't come to terms with was the

fact that it was organised and it was

systematically covered up, that it was. It wasn't

just something that happened, it was a way of

being, a way of dealing with something and it was

just so, ah, at odds with my experience of the

church and something in me just cracked. That's

the only way, really, I can describe it. I, don't

remember going to bed that night and the next

morning I got up and, you know, the floor and the

curtains and the furniture was all the same, but I

didn't know where I was. And, the GP said, you

know, she's in shock. And I remember going to my

parish priest where I lived in southwest Scotland.

So, you know, it's, it's easy to judge people's

reactions, but in retrospect I don't know what he

was going through or, you know, how he had

received that news, because it was probably a

shock to him too. But he was really defensive when

I tried to speak to him and he said, so what are

you trying to say then? That we're all abusers?

and I was just. No, that's, that's not what I'm

saying. I'm just saying that I'm in a really bad

place and I need to talk. But he wasn't, he wasn't

there. That's not something he felt comfortable

doing. And so a couple of weeks later, I,

attempted to speak to the parish safeguarding

officer, who's an xg, an Irish Catholic, ex, you

know, GP and a mother of five with lead

responsibility for safeguarding in her parish. So

one would assume that this would be somebody that

you could speak to about this issue. And she was

quite blase about it and she said, well, you know,

the church has always been like that and besides,

it wasn't your kids, what's your problem? And so

for me, that, that for me just kind of confirmed

everything I, I had been told on the television.

So, you know, popular press is not particularly

charitable to the church anyway, but it just felt

like these, these people were basically

corroborating everything that the television was

saying. And I went, So I suppose what happened was

I didn't lose my faith, but I lost my capacity to

practise my faith because I didn't feel safe in

church and that. So what happened was I stayed

away from church, I couldn't go to church. And in

one way that fixed something because that

immediate hurt that's so painful and you want it

to stop, stops. But then you're left with another

pain that replaces it and that's, you're left with

this giant church shaped hole in your life where

your capacity to be the church or part of the

church once was. And you're left with grief.

That's the only way I can describe it is

unbearable grief. That's how I would express it.

And so that's what brought me on this journey. I

started a journey of looking for other people. The

television was full of people, commentators

saying, you don't need a church to be a Christian.

And I thought, well, this is the rest of my life.

So if I can't go back to church and I'm not giving

up my faith, then how practically do you practise

your faith without the church? And I went out

looking for people.

>> Julia: So what did you find?

>> Antonia: What did I find? Well, there's another world out

there and it was one that was right in front of

us, but we never questioned. So I met a couple

who, baptised their fourth child on the beach at

St Indian's Cave. They'd gone back to the

beginning, to the cradle of Christianity in

Scotland to baptise their child, with a Catholic

baptismal rights. it's valid, but I don't think

it's licit. They asked me to be a godparent, but I

didn't say yes because I didn't actually know what

I was agreeing to because everything was up in the

air and I didn't know what that would mean

exactly. I found a lady in Annan who spent last 40

years praying alone in her sitting room and

volunteering at a food bank as a way of practising

her faith because her brother was abused in the

church and, they were all shunned. I found another

couple down in Dorset and another couple who'd

gone through the same thing in Yorkshire and they

were both young Catholics who'd got married in

hotels with secular celibates using Catholic

marriage rights in hotels because they felt that

going back to church was saying, we accept the

status quo, but we're not giving up our faith. And

these people all described themselves as being

part of the same group and that is can't be

Catholic, but can't be anything but Catholic and

they can't go back and they don't know how to go

forward and so they're trying their best to

practise their faith in this nondescript limbo

that nobody has any rules or structure for. So

that's, that's what I found. And so when I moved

to Cumbria, I, I had to go there to get my, my son

a place at a specialist school. I, I was. For

staying in my shed and, being a churchless

Christian. And as I say, everything that happened

to me, well, it's the complete opposite of

everything I planned.

>> Julia: I was going to add, it's almost that separation of

your relationship with God separately from your

relationship with the church. In terms of, like,

quite a lot of people, particularly practising

Catholic, your relationship between God and your

relationship with church is quite connected. But

for this group of people, you've just described

there is that separation of those two

relationships. So what did you find in Cumbria?

>> Antonia: So I bought an old rectory in a small village in

northern Cumbria. My children reliably informed me

that I moved them to the most boring village in

England, which suited me just fine. it was next to

a little, mediaeval church. And so when I moved

there, I planned on just, being in my shed and,

you know, restoring statues. And I don't know what

the plan was. It was going to just be me and God

and all the camp, all the complications were going

to stay way over there and it was going to be just

us in our own exclusive little safe club over

here. and when I moved there, there were a group

of little old ladies in the church there, St.

Peter's and they, we become very fond of them very

quickly. so they, they asked me my story and they

said, oh for goodness sake, don't, don't pray in

your shed, Antonia. You know, our church is your

church. You know, it's next door, go pray in it.

So, you know, when they couldn't open the doors or

get the grills off the stained glass, you know,

they, I would dutifully send Seb round to, to fix

it for them. And yeah, everything went along quite

quietly and peacefully until what happened to me

happened to them. So, the Anglican bishop of

Carlisle, he wrote a character reference for a

convicted priest who, abused two 8 year old girls.

And so this, this priest was found guilty in court

and he approached his friend the bishop for a

character reference to procure him a lesser

sentence, which would be inexcusable. but this

bishop, he, he wrote the character reference and

at the 59th minute of the 11th hour, somebody in

the diocese found out that he'd done this and got

him to withdraw the reference. But by that time it

was too late. The die was cast and the sentencing

judge had seen the character reference and was

absolutely and rightly so excoriating about the

bishop and said, you know, you've added to the

suffering of these children and their families by,

by writing this character reference. What? Could

you not see them? Could you not see what was

happening to them? And this came into the public

domain in the same week as icsa. so this had the

effect of dropping an atomic bomb on the church in

Cumbria. It was, the devastation was absolute,

really. And that's ground zero.

That's where we started.

>> Julia: For anyone listening, what is ICSA?

>> Antonia: ICSA is the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual

Abuse. It was set up by the then Prime Minister,

Theresa May. And it was to look into, abuse in

major institutions. So that was in local authority

care, in some boarding schools and also in the

Catholic church and in the Anglican Church.

>> Julia: So that report came out at the same time that the

bishop's letter was made public?

>> Antonia: Yes.

>> Julia: So what happened after that?

>> Antonia: Well, I think the thing that made so many ordinary

Christians so angry was one that. So I suppose

this is an inevitable consequence of the way that

the church is structured, that the person at the

top speaks for everybody else. And so nobody else,

especially when they're in a place of acute pain,

they don't get to express how they feel and they

don't get to say I'm so sorry to anyone who's

hurting. And so that's, that's what all these

people went through. I remember one of those

ladies in church, I remember finding her, sat

alone one evening crying and she was just sobbing.

I really, to the point where my shirt was wet with

the tears when I tried to console her. And I said,

what on earth has happened? And she, my daughter

in law doesn't feel comfortable about me bringing

my grandchildren to church anymore. And this lady

had lived in this village for 84 years, her whole

life, you know, born and raised and gone to this

church. And now she couldn't bring her

grandchildren there. And after consoling her, she

got a bit angry with me and she said, why, why are

you, why you just sat here, you know, you've been

through this before me, why haven't you done

something? And I was a bit taken aback by this and

I, I said, well, what do you want me to do? What,

what am I gonna do? I kind of read up in my usual

prudent style and said, well, what am I supposed

to do about it? And she said, well, something at,

something for goodness sake. And I think the thing

that kind of caught me off guard was before I left

Scotland and moved to Cumbria, I, I had a row with

God on the beach in Scotland. I'm reliably

informed by a lot of venerable, monks that it

wasn't rowing, it was praying out loud. So that I

think they're being very charitable with me there.

But, this row stroke, rigorous praying on the

beach ended with me saying to God, you have all

this power, you can do anything you want, it's

your church, so you do what you want with it

because, you could do anything. Why don't you do

something? And I stormed off the beach in my usual

dramatic fashion. And that was that. So to hear

that same accusation throwing back in my face kind

of took me back for a moment. And so I said, all

right then, I will watch this. And, I went home,

went next door and, my husband said to me, what

are you going to do then? And I said, I have no

idea, no idea. And Elizabeth's given me 48 hours,

so for the parish council meeting. So I, I

remember thinking, well, I'm an artist, how would

I approach this? And I remember from my time

living in Scotland, there is a tradition, where

you memorialise loss, and record grief before the

advent of mass literacy. This is so going back at

least 300, 400 years ago. And that this is where

you tied strips of Cluthy or Cluti or fabric to a

tree in your village to denote the loss that's

happened. if you didn't have the money to pay for

a headstone or you couldn't write it down in a

book, you could record this loss in this way. And

so I was kind of looking for a way of expressing

the modern version of this. I am officially the

last person in the whole of Britain to ever catch

up with any kind of modern movement. so. So, I

think I actually might be the last person to

figure out how to text somebody as well. So, I was

kind of looking around online and so you had

semaphore flags that they used to send messages.

And then I come across, a protest group in

Australia. Now, they were, they are an anti

clerical group, but they, they call the act, this

ancient act of tying ribbons to denote loss, a

loud fencing. So I kind of thought, right, well,

this is the modern name for what we've been doing

for centuries. So I said to Elizabeth and to

everybody at the parish council, this is what I

propose that we do. what has happened is a series,

like a domino effect of broken relationships that

you can see here. We can't undo the abuse, but we

can do everything about what we do, now that

people have been harmed. So we can either shun

them and pretend they're not there, or we can wrap

our arms around them and throw the doors of this

church open and send them a message saying, you

are the victims, you are the priority and we're

here for you in whatever way this is, this is for

you. But how do you do that if you don't even know

who they are? Because they're not coming to the

church to tell you who they are and you don't know

who they are. So I suppose you could put a message

online, but it's cold and impersonal and there's

nothing like the physicality of touching something

and it being something that's in the real world

rather than a message on a phone. so that's the

theory behind LOUDfence. It's the people on the

inside coming to the edge of the church, the

boundary, the fence, and tying those messages so

that the people on the outside can meet them there

and see what's been written and they don't have to

say who they are. But actually we found that the

impact it has is really profound. So it's kind of

reverse technology. My. My kids call it mediaeval

Facebook, but I call that human interaction.

>> Julia: So we're giggling for half an hour. I guess that

is true that quite often what we. We would have

done before phones is movements like that, that we

now kind of lost them because our assumption is

just to pick up a phone, WhatsApp or text or

whatever. But actually that, as you said, it can

come across quite cold. So there isn't that human

connection in the same way with it as well.

And I was also really struck about that idea of

people coming from inside the church, out to meet

people where they're at, rather than assuming

they'll come in, which is going to be a massive

challenge for them.

>> Antonia: Absolutely. Even for people who retain their

faith, there are certain places they'll not go.

And there are victims I work with who retain their

faith and go to Mass, but they have to drive past

three Catholic churches where they remember things

happening to go to Mass in a church miles away

because they can't. The psychological barriers are

just too great for them to go in those buildings.

So this is not people just being difficult. This

is a real psychological injury that they've

suffered. And if somebody couldn't walk, we'd put

a wheelchair ramp, in for them, wouldn't we? This

is another form of injury. So we're just saying

meet these people where they are and make

adaptions so that they can access church too.

>> Julia: So how as a community. Well, maybe you've answered

it and been talking about this, but how do you

start as a community to heal from that pain?

>> Antonia: Yeah, it's about, The first thing that's

fundamental is you've got to ditch the us and

them. So, this narrative is great if you want to

flog newspapers, but it's not good if you want to

heal a church. So we have to drop all the

assumptions, all the stereotypes. We have to stop

Assuming that the victims are on the outside and

that they're the bad, angry, shouty people that

are anti clerical, we have to stop assuming that

everyone on the inside has never been affected by

abuse and that we're all the people who know

nothing about it, that the fact of the matter is

that there are victims on the inside, there are

people who never experienced abuse on the outside

but have been very impacted by it. And so instead

of it being sort of factionalized, we should see

the person before we see the title or the robes or

the, the name. We should just see a human being

who's part of the church and if we adopt the

attitude of that we all have to accompany each

other, this will make such a radical difference.

And there's also this assumption that the only

people who can help anyone impacted by abuse are

therapists. Right? Therapists offer care, but not

all care has to be therapy. Just sitting down with

somebody and listening, offering them a cup of tea

and just being there for them. There is no

medicine quite like kindness and hope. So I just

think that we need to drop all the stereotypes,

maybe just meet people where they are and journey

with them. The first step in restorative justice

is just giving someone the gift of listening,

saying, I believe you. it liberates people. I've

seen the impact it has before this.

>> Julia: You spoke about, how quite often there'll be

people in church or sometimes there'll be people

in church who have been, victims and survivors of

abuse. Not necessarily from the church, but they

have that experience from elsewhere and they will

also be sitting in the church and that can be

challenging for them and for their experience. How

for those people, but for all people, how do the

church start to support people as they come forth

and able to share their storeys?

>> Antonia: I think that what's crucial is to not be afraid of

it. I am one of those people and I don't

underestimate the challenge for some people of

listening to it. My parish priest, when I first

started talking to him, I think he was as

terrified of listening to me as I was of talking

to him. And, both of us have gone on this journey

together and now we're going to be holding a loud

fence together in November. I. I've held loud

fences all over Europe now and I don't think

there's going to be one that will be as emotional

as tying a ribbon onto my own parish church

railings with the parish priest who gave me back

the ability to practise my faith. That's going to

be like a super weepy one, that one.

>> Julia: Because you just spoke about how, you've been all

over Europe. What do you think helps people

connect with the movement?

>> Antonia: I think what it is fundamentally is at the moment

there is this idea, that if you have a problem

with abuse, you can't be in the church and you

have to leave. And there is this false narrative

that says if you are serious about supporting

survivors of abuse, then you have to ditch your

faith. You can't be Catholic, you can't be a

Christian and care about those people, which is

madness because the whole of the gospel is talking

about the care of the other, the Christ who went

in search of the lost lamb. That makes no sense to

me. You know, we, we kind of, we've got kind of a

handle on the idea of loving our neighbour and

being there for them. So we need to ditch all the

stereotypes. As I said before, great for selling

newspapers, horrifying for the human soul.

>> Julia: When you talk about that, the stereotypes. I guess

there's also the challenge in terms of there are

people who've not been involved with abuse at all

in the church, who, when they hear, when they talk

to people outside of the church, all they hear

about is the church is full of abusers, the church

is full of abusers. And so they can find that

quite heavy. And so they might choose to shut

down, like part of, part of their sharing, which

then doesn't create this safe space for people who

do want to talk about it inside the church. How,

how do we as a church respond to those two needs

at the same time?

>> Antonia: So I think that's one of the things that the loud

fence really helps with because we realised pretty

soon on that we couldn't just limit it to people

who suffered abuse by someone in the church

because there were so many people. The first loud

fence we held, we so it again quite by accident.

we put our ribbons up and we fought someone as far

as Penrith might notice. So, my daughter Kathy

said, mum, the only way you're going to reach

Penrith, but, you know, Penrith in a, in a

pandemic is to take some pictures and post them on

social media. And so we did this. and what we

discovered, a few days later is that we were

getting messages from Australia and America and

all over Europe and these people were saying, this

is, this was me, this was my dad, this was my

granny, this was the boy I was at boarding school

with, the girl I was in Guides with, the boy I

went to Scouts with the girl I was in care with.

This was something I suffered at the hands of my

dad or my uncle at ah, the, the list was

overwhelming and what it taught us was the abuse.

This is a pandemic that's everywhere. It's not

something specific to the Church. The Church has

handled it badly but actually society has handled

it badly. The Epstein scandal, that is just a lot

of people who have all took unsubconsciously a

decision to say I can't deal with that, I can't

handle that. So I'm going to just look the other

way. There are people who have attempted to

justify their conscience and say well it really

wasn't my issue, it wasn't my problem or what was

I going to do? About was literally a whole load of

people who demonstrated moral cowardice. They

didn't wake up one morning and decide to be

wicked, they just opted to be weak. And that's how

this has happened. So to say that abuse is somehow

more prevalent in the church is a nonsense. It's

something which tragically is common everywhere.

>> Julia: So where have you seen God show up unexpectedly?

>> Antonia: Where has God shown up unexpectedly? It's in, it's

in the, the experiences, the encounters that I've

had with people that have been just. They've left

me with conversations and memories that will just

stay with me forever really. there was one lady,

who contacted me through the local newspaper so

she'd. The first lautence we held caused such a

stir that the local newspaper got involved and

they put the story online as well as in print and

somebody forwarded it to a friend of a friend of a

friend. And I had a lady call me from Canada and

she said that she was an evacuee in the war and as

a six year old she'd been evacuated to the village

where I live and she got my number from the

reporter and telephoned me to say, when I was an

evacuee I was raped by the vicar at the time and

I've carried it around with me my whole life and

it's affected all of my relationships and I'm not

getting any younger and I don't want to take this

story to my grave. And I wanted to ring you up and

find out how you would react if I told you this.

and to ask you if you think it would be okay if I

told my daughters and my grandchildren. And so it

made me realise the interconnectedness that we all

have no matter where we are in the world that what

we did in that small village in Cumbria had the

ability to change someone's life. In Canada, she

carried it around 70 years and we managed to

convince her that it would be okay to tell her

daughters. We got her in contact with her family

doctor who was giving her support. And it won't

ever undo all the harm that's been done, but it

gives someone a sense of release. And I think,

wow, we just, we changed something for somebody

when we did that. So how do I think God shows up

in those conversations? When people say, could I

tell you something? And you have the ability to

just be there with them for that time, that's when

God shows up.

>> Julia: And I imagine for somebody who's sharing that

experience, the response of the first person they

tell will determine how, if they feel comfortable

to share it to others.

>> Antonia: It's crucial. It's absolutely crucial. It takes a

monumental amount of courage. I mean, these people

have been blamed for their own injuries and you

know, the narrative around, oh, did you tempt him?

What did you wear? How did you speak to him? Did

you catch his eye? Did you make him, feel

uncomfortable? It's anything to try and put the

responsibility for the abuse onto the victim

rather than onto the perpetrator. So when they

finally get to that place, if they do at all and

they feel able to talk, it's absolutely crucial

that you're responding correctly. When, when

somebody does say that to

>> Julia: you, if you are somebody in that situation, what

is the right way to respond? Because I think if I

was in that situation, I would firstly, I know the

first thing to do is to listen and hear, but I

think I would be like, I don't want to say the

wrong thing to them. So what, what is the correct

way to respond?

>> Antonia: Well, I'll tell you what not to say. don't say,

how come it took you so long to say something?

don't say things such as, well, that was a long

time ago. Don't you think you should be over it by

now? It's, it's pretty simple stuff. Use open

questions, not closed ones. Give someone your

undivided attention and when they finish speaking,

if this was something that was non recent abuse

and it's obvious from the age of the person

disclosing that their assailant is no longer

around, they're died, then the next question

should be, what would you like to happen now? Give

they've had all the control taken away from them

when they've suffered abuse. So give the control

back to them and say, what, what would you like

now? Put, you know, make them feel empowered and

affirmed.

>> Julia: That's really good advice and really helpful for

somebody who's, who's in that position to listen.

But what do you say to the person, to somebody who

might be listening to this now, who's been a

victim or survivor and wants to come forward and

wants to share their experience and come back to

church?

>> Antonia: if you've experienced abuse within the church,

then please, please tell someone. If you don't

feel comfortable telling somebody, then contact

us@laofence.com we can be there to assist you and

accompany you to contact Safeguarding. We've done

that on a number of occasions. But if you do

contact Safeguarding in any diocese, they are now

very aware of how delicate that situation will be

and you'll have a very different response from

before if that's something that you don't feel

able to do. You could also speak to Safe Spaces,

but please, please tell someone. also, you could

go to your local parish safeguarding officer. You

can telephone them. If you go onto your parish

website, they'll normally list the name and number

for the. The safeguarding officer. There's another

person you could disclose to as well. So there are

lots of options. But if none of those are

something you feel comfortable with, we'll. We'll

always find a way to help you.

>> Julia: Thank you for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

Antonia shared about how God showed up for her in

ways she wasn't expecting. God can really use our

weakest moments. How about you? We'd love to hear

how Antonia's story resonated with you. And why

not also tell us if you're facing an experience

you wish you knew how to look at differently, it

might just be something we can help with. You can

find out more about this and other

themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for

listening. I hope you'll join me again next time

on Things I Wish I Knew.