What seems optional is actually really critical over the long run.

Right.

Because the drift is so easy and it's really difficult to discern or perceive that it's happening in the moment.

But then years later, you realize we don't share anything in common or we're not really having fun together.

So I think it's really not optional.

You know, on the one hand, it's best designed come together.

The two shall be one.

But on the flip side, when you're not practicing that oneness in a physical sort of expression, you're putting yourself at risk at jeopardy.

and there is real spiritual warfare. And it's funny, we don't think of sex as a part of

spiritual warfare, but according to this text, it is.

This is the Made to Advance Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Aulick. We're here to inspire and

equip you for your best future. Well, hey, everybody, it is so good to be with you today.

And before we get started, I wanna ask you a big favor.

Could you rate and review May to Advance?

That helps us get the word out about the pod to more people.

It is also a massive encouragement to our whole team.

Today, we've got a really good conversation coming your way.

I've got Christina Ulrich with me.

She is the pastor of Global Missions

here at Engedi Church, which she co-founded 20 years ago.

But most of all, and most importantly,

she is my wife and the mother of our three kids.

Christina, it's good to be with you.

- It's good to be back, friend.

- It's only been a couple weeks, can you believe it?

- I know, we're kind of in a groove now.

- Yeah, so I don't know,

if somebody who's listening right now missed it,

you were on an episode just like literally two times ago,

it was probably actually a month ago in broadcast time,

but you were sharing your cancer journey

and it turned into one of the most quickly listened to

episodes we've had, so good job sharing all that.

- Well, I'm really glad I was able to

and I'm just so glad that it sounds like

it's been an encouragement for people,

That was really our heart in sharing that story.

So, bless God.

- Yeah, that's right.

And we joked, we didn't know if you'd come back

after one time, but here you are.

So it must have not been too painful

to sit with me on the old pod here.

- No, I'm not gonna lie.

I was a little nervous at the beginning of the last one,

but I got over my fears and here I am again.

- Just think, so it took us two years

to get you on the first time,

and it's taken us about a few weeks

to get you on the second.

So, who knows?

- You can be a little persuasive.

Yeah, well, thank you for that.

I hope that's a compliment, I'm not really sure.

So I'm really excited about the content today

because we've already delivered it.

We were doing a marriage night here at our church

and we really tried to distill 28 years of wisdom

into a conversation with all these married couples

at our church and it came out really, really well.

And we also did some Q&A at the end of the session live.

So today we'll also do some questions.

We're gonna actually get to some questions today

the pod that we were not able to hit that night. So if you're listening and you were at marriage

night, there is some brand new material all the way at the end. Although even though we're gonna

cover some of the same ground, you never know. You never know. You never know what's gonna happen

around here. It's a wild situation. So we're gonna have fun though, that is for sure. 28 years of

marriage, we've learned a lot. We don't have it all figured out, and we're just one couple that

God's taught us a lot, but every couple's different, so we'll do our best. You ready for it?

Yeah, totally ready, and I totally agree. It's like, yeah, we've learned some things in 28 years,

but I think we all are on a journey of learning and growing and developing. So we still have

things to learn and grow in. Even yesterday morning, we were working through some new stuff.

And so I just think that anybody listening...

[laughter]

Working through some new stuff.

Yeah, you can interpret that as you would like.

That's what Pastor Christina describes a fight as, working through some new stuff.

It wasn't a fight.

Oh, it was a discussion.

A discussion.

Yes.

Okay. In any case, hopefully people that are listening today might pick up some

things, but we're also just going to cover some of those classic disciplines on what

makes marriage healthy.

And I think it's kind of similar to what makes our bodies healthy.

We kind of know there are some classic disciplines with that of eating a good diet and exercising

regularly.

It's not always rocket science, but sometimes we need some encouragement and practical help

in just figuring out how to actually practice those core habits and create a strong foundation

for our life.

So that's what we're going to do today.

Yeah, that's right.

- It's funny because there are like you see on,

you know, if you're on Instagram,

you get these reels of all these different health hacks.

And there are lots of things that we can learn

that are new things and insights and whatnot.

But it's funny 'cause no matter how many hacks you know,

if you're eating badly and not exercising at all,

it is not gonna matter.

So it's like the, it's the both end, isn't it?

You gotta have the core disciplines of a good diet

and some proper exercise.

And then you can add all these interesting things.

Well, let's get into it.

We had five principles the night we shared.

You're going to kick us off with the very first one that,

for us, is a really, really big deal.

That's right.

That's right.

Now, I think for us, that kind of first principle,

I like to go back to when we were first married.

Because I think that when you first fall in love with

someone, it's like your whole life starts

to evolve around that person.

And sometimes what can happen is that person kind of takes over

first place in terms of your priorities, your thought life,

just how you're viewing the world.

And then maybe once you have kids,

it's like your kids take over that spot.

And then all of a sudden, everything in your life

is oriented around your kids.

Or for some people, maybe you don't have kids

or you're just wired differently and it can become your job.

Your job takes over first place in your mind

and in your heart and priorities.

And for us, that first principle of making our marriage work

is committing to put God first.

And that's something that we just really feel like

is the most important foundational principle

for everything in making marriage work.

Yeah, it's funny because people hearing this might think, "Well, of course you're gonna

say that.

You're both pastors."

I mean, it's like kids in Sunday school class, like what's the answer?

They're always gonna say, "Jesus."

And yeah, that is true, we are both pastors, but we would have said this, honestly, when

we were dating, when we were engaged, and when we were married before we were in ministry

at all.

This has always stayed true.

It was really what we were hoping for for our kids too.

were always thinking, "Okay," and we would tell them, "Make sure your spouse, your prospective

spouse has that commitment."

And I remember that one time, our now son-in-law was over with Kaylin, and they were supposed

to have young adults that night at church.

And she was like, "Oh, we're having so much fun with our family."

Do you remember the night I'm talking?

And she's like, "Maybe we just stay home and hang out with the family."

And I remember Anderson going, "Yeah, no, I think we need to go be at young adults."

And we're like, "Ooh, we like this kid."

Way to go, Anderson.

Shout out.

That's right.

Putting God first, so that's good.

And we love you, Kalen.

Yeah.

Okay.

Kalen sounds like the concession.

Poor Kalen.

I know.

Oh yeah, Kalen, we love you too.

We love you too.

No, you guys are both awesome.

But I love this idea of putting God first, just how that's actually called out in the

Bible.

Yeah.

In Matthew chapter six, Jesus says, "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?'

or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'

Or the pagans run after all these things, and your Heavenly Father knows that you need

them.

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you

as well."

So I think that just how our view is that we have this deep conviction that when you're

pursuing God's character and His purposes for your life, a lot of marriage just ends

up kind of flowing and working out in an orderly way, like in God's best way.

And I think that really makes a lot of sense because if a husband and a wife are both individually

seeking Jesus first, then they're both growing in the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

And I know we've seen this to be true in our life.

And if both husband and wife are growing in the fruits of the Spirit, then they're becoming

better spouses by default.

So I just think it kinda works itself through naturally in that respect.

Yeah, I remember in our early days of marriage, you were going through this massive spiritual

growth curve. And it was so interesting because at the same time as you were growing so much,

of course, the fruits of the Spirit are growing, and one of the ways that manifested is you are

getting more conscious of your own sin and brokenness and more humble. And so that affected

everything about our conflict resolution. [laughter]

Yeah. Do you mean our discussions?

Yeah, I'll just... [laughter]

Yes. Not our fights, I don't mean that.

No, no.

No, no. Yeah, so it was just interesting though, because I think maybe it took a little longer

for mutual ownership of different things, and all of a sudden, I think because of you

going through that season of growth in that particular time, it's affected me in other

ways as well, being more sensitive to your needs as I've grown spiritually. But it was

really cool 'cause that's what's manifested. Let's talk for a second about how we put God

'cause that's a big thing, just practically speaking, what's this look like?

And a big part of this for us is daily devotions.

Maybe talk for a second about daily devotions.

Yeah, I mean, I think for us, it's definitely looked different depending on the season.

It's not like a set time, always forever, but I think depending on what that season

has looked like, we've figured out ways to prioritize our time in the Word and in prayer.

And really everything else has to start from that point.

And what we've also found is that we've helped to accommodate each other in different seasons.

So even if it didn't feel convenient to me at the time or to you at the time to be focused

on kids and keeping it quiet or keeping them away from dad while he's doing devos or mom

while she's trying to have five seconds, it's like we've really tried to advocate for each

other and to support that time so that it can be protected because it is so truly foundational.

Like not only is putting God first foundational, but how you do that, getting into the Word

and into prayer is really a non-negotiable.

Yeah, that's so good.

Well, and the verse that just came to my mind when you were saying that is the classic John

15 text about the vine and the branches.

And we've gotta be connected to the vine, which is Jesus, and that's what produces fruit

out of our lives.

if we're not connected to the vine, we can't expect to see that kind of fruit and abundance

and whatnot. So that's good. That's definitely been a hallmark discipline for us in the beginning.

And the other thing, obviously, has been church engagement. And that really was true, again,

I wanna stress for those listening, before we were pastors. Like we got married... I mean,

honestly, we were engaged in our church as an engaged couple, and then when we got married,

we moved to Chicago, bam, right in a church, getting in a small group. Of course, so many

people, they don't get into a small group until they're... They don't get into community until

they feel like they are desperate for it, and then they don't have it. We said, "No, we're gonna make

that a priority." We really served together right from the jump, and that helped unify us and became

something we shared. And then as disconnected as this sounds, we tithed from an early part of our

That was crazy. I guess we just believed Jesus. We didn't start out tithing.

No, we didn't. But I remember we sat down with a budget counselor at our church,

and he looked at all of our numbers. We got transparent with him, which I would highly

recommend. Don't be afraid. Get real with somebody. And he looked at our numbers and he was like, "Well,

there's our math and there's God's math." Basically saying, "I don't know how your math's

gonna work." But we just said, "You know what? We're drawing a line in the sand and we're gonna

trust God and we're gonna be obedient to what we see in Scripture." And we started to tithe,

and it was so unifying for us,

but it was a huge faith builder as well.

- Yeah, it was, but those famous words from Jesus

in Matthew 6, verse 21, "Where your treasure is,

"there your heart will be also."

Your heart follows your treasure.

And so we wanted to put God first,

and so we said if we're gonna do that and actually mean it,

we've gotta do it first in our finances.

And we really experienced God's favor through that,

I think, an ongoing way.

- Yeah, and I think there's something to be said too

for saying you want to put God first,

like having the aspiration to do it,

and then putting action behind it.

It really isn't fully realized

until you're actually living that out.

If you're just thinking it,

it's like you're only part way there.

And I just want to encourage anybody who's listening

to really be honest about identifying in any given season

who and what truly comes first in your life

and in your heart.

And sometimes things drift,

and that's the human experience.

That's not something to be bashing yourself about.

It's something to be honest about.

And then when we realize that's happening,

to also realize it's never too late to reorient your life

and to recommit to prioritizing putting God first.

Never too late to do that.

And so if people don't necessarily

take anything else away from all the things

that we're going to share, I know that our heart is really

that people would walk away from a podcast like this

and just feel utterly renewed in their commitment to put God first in their marriage, because

that's the best foundation that's out there.

Yeah, that's it.

And it's amazing, when you think about grace, just the nature of Jesus did the work, and

all He calls for from us is repentance.

It's not like, "Oh, I've gotta do the 10-point checklist and all of these religious works

before I can get back on center or put God first again."

It's like I'm walking in the wrong direction, I repent, I say, "God, I'm sorry," turn the

other way, and God's like, "Boom, that's what I'm looking for, a broken and contrite heart,

and there's grace there."

Yeah, and I was just talking with a friend last week who was telling me that she's been

advocating for her marriage in a unique circumstance for years, and she realized that that had

become an idol in her heart, and she had to repent from it, even though it's a great thing

to advocate for and to stand firm about, she realized, "Oh, I've allowed this to take first

place in my heart over allowing God to be first." And just talking with her about that,

once she realized and started to repent from that, she had a peace over her and just a

freedom that I hadn't seen in a while.

Yeah, so again, put God first, and that's the headline of this whole conversation.

That's correct, yeah.

first. And again, we're not saying no problems after that. I mean, even Peter, he steps out

and walks on water, and then he sees the waves, and the waves came is the point, right? So

you're gonna have hard things, but there is nothing like going through life, including

the hard things, when God is first.

A second thing we talked about a few nights ago was just this idea of cultivating friendship

within marriage. And I feel like that conversation is sometimes neglected in our day. It just

our culture is super into romance and all of it.

Would you agree with that?

- Oh my gosh, the bachelorette, need I say more?

- Yeah. (laughing)

- Done.

- Yeah, so just everything's about all the feels

and even watching guys today propose,

I sometimes almost--

- Promposals, let's not forget that.

- Oh my gosh.

(laughing)

I'm sorry, I'm like, that's gag worthy to me,

but it is what it is.

All right, that's how we do it now.

But you know, I mean, honestly,

It's like sometimes I think about just how guys propose now as compared to how I propose

and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you got the short end of the stick on that."

But you know.

No, man.

You said yes.

All good.

All good.

It worked.

So I mean, that's ultimately it.

But yeah, so I think that we get into this whole like romance mindset though.

And what's fascinating is what research shows is that one of the most common things that

leads couples to divorce is when they lose that sense of just being friends.

And then that's when their relationship really starts to fall apart.

I love this verse from Solomon chapter...

Song of Songs, or Solomon chapter 5 verse 16, where the bride says about her groom,

"This is my beloved, this is my friend."

And I just think she really is naming something so important 'cause someday, if you have kids,

they're gonna move out.

Someday, you might have a job, but you're gonna retire.

The thing that is gonna be left is your relationship with your spouse, and it's not gonna be all

That's important, it has its place, but friendship's a big deal.

Absolutely.

And I think taking those kind of practical steps to cultivate friendship is,

you've got to be intentional about that.

And so for us, especially once we had kids,

it really looked like getting time away from our kids.

We love our kids dearly.

And even if you don't have kids,

it's like cultivating that time to be away together, the two of you,

where you're not doing other things

And so for us, that's looked like doing a weekly date and, you know, some weeks it

hasn't been possible, but that's definitely the priority for us.

And, um, a little add on that we do, that's a little unique as we take a, uh,

drive every Friday and we get a cup of coffee and we just carve out time to be

friends together and to talk and all of that.

Um, and then we also do a couple of overnights, one or two overnights during

during the year by ourselves and go someplace fun just to be, to be buddies.

And that can be difficult depending on the season that you're in.

But I just really think that no matter how difficult it is, it still needs to be

prioritized because you prioritize and budget and make time for the things

that are really important.

Yeah.

And we've had to get creative when you think about it over the years.

I mean, back in the early days, we knew getting away was, was important.

We could only do one night initially, but it wasn't like we spent big dollars. I mean,

sometimes we would literally ask anybody we knew with a place if we could use their place or if

they would rent it to us. And sometimes they did on the cheap and other times they said, "Oh,

you can just use it for a night." And sometimes we just would try to find a deal on a hotel

somewhere, but I mean, just making it happen. So we got industrious about it. Also, we've over the

I think of watching shows.

- Yep, yep, absolutely.

You know, that's one of our little go-to's, I think.

And you know, in the current season,

we like to watch American Idol, it's true.

I know it's like, I don't know, a kid's show.

(laughing)

I think it's great.

- Well, the funny thing is, is it a kid's show?

Or I'm like, is it an old people's show?

I'm not sure what it is. - I don't know.

I don't even know. - But we watch it.

- It's fine. - And you cry at it.

- I do cry almost every time.

That's my confession for today.

But yeah, we just like to sit together and experience

something together.

And I know sometimes, for people,

some of those shared activities could be serving together.

Or it could be going out to play pickleball.

Who doesn't love pickleball nowadays?

Come on.

Taking walks.

I know some couples who read and listen to books

and talk about it together.

And I think that's super cool.

It's just like whatever is uniquely yours that

can cultivate friendship.

Man, it's so important.

And I think it can feel like an optional thing that we do,

like, oh, it's nice if we get to go do this thing

that at the time doesn't seem earth shattering.

But I think it's really easy to fool ourselves

that that thing of optional,

like getting away with our spouse,

weekly dates, cultivating that friendship,

what seems optional is actually really critical

over the long run.

Because the drift is so easy

and it's really difficult to discern

or perceive that it's happening in the moment,

but then years later you realize

we don't share anything in common

or we're not really having fun together.

So I think it's really not optional.

- Totally, and that's so good.

It's tough because a lot of these things,

you don't say, oh, taking walks together

is necessary for a successful marriage.

It doesn't seem like so urgent.

But there are a lot of things in life,

like brushing our teeth,

that are really mundane and repetitive

and you don't get excited about brushing your teeth.

and yet if you stop doing that over a period of time,

that's not gonna lead to good places.

- It's gonna be kinda nasty.

- Right, and so I think a lot of this is really similar,

like these basic habits of health.

So that's really good.

So we're cultivating friendship.

Another thing we talked about,

and I wanna talk about today,

is just what it means to resolve conflict well.

That is a really big deal.

- Or whatever you call it, discussions.

- Discussions, yes, working through discussions

in a healthy fashion.

So it's funny because when we were first preparing this content, we got into a whole...

Discussion.

Discussion.

[laughter]

In advance, and we thought, "Well, this is good prep."

It's timely.

"This is good prep, so we're working through it."

Yeah, so we'll go through a few things, and just hopefully it'll be helpful for those

who are hearing.

I think that one of the things that I really had to learn early on in our marriage was

just the importance of communication.

And I think I just...

Maybe it's...

I don't know if it's the stereotypical guys just wanna fix it, or if it was not wanting

to press into the messiness of intention of working through things.

But I think sometimes you would say stuff and I'd be like, "Okay, I'll change it."

And sometimes if I maybe disagreed or I had pushback, I didn't say it, or I didn't...

I don't know, just kind of like listen better when you were saying it.

It was just like, okay.

So I really realized I've got to, I've got to process better.

I've got to bring up things when I feel issues too.

So we learned early on the importance of picking good times to have conflict.

Do you, anything you want to comment on, on just picking good times for?

Yeah, this is really important.

And I think that, um, you know, for me, sometimes I'll sit with something

that's been bothering me for the whole day and not really am sure how to bring it up

or whatever, but then I'm trying to go to sleep and I can't not think about it. And

I start to bring it up. After the lights are off and we've said good night, and it's like

the worst possible time to bring up something that we need to work through constructively.

It's like not setting anyone up for success. So there are definitely less ideal times to

bring things up or if it's like you're just feeling it in the moment, but you're supposed

to walk into your friend's house, you're on the way there for dinner and you're supposed

to walk in momentarily, not a good time to bring up a conflict.

Yeah, or if you're like super hot about whatever the issue is.

Yeah, you just worked up.

Yeah, very few of us do our best when we're really emotional and getting through conflict.

So I know there have been times where I've been feeling like super, super tense or hot

about something and when I've engaged in conflict, it tends to not go as well because then I

I don't say things in a more of a gentle fashion,

and it just comes with some baggage that isn't good.

And then we end up having to work through

that's how I said it, it's just not fun.

So picking a good time has been a big deal.

In general, using words that don't put your spouse

on the defensive, and probably the one that comes up a lot

is not using super all-encompassing terms

like you always do this, or you never do that.

- It almost sounds like an accusation at that point.

- Yeah, it's so extreme.

- Yeah, it's so extreme, puts you on the defensive.

So really figuring out how to say that.

Now it's funny, somebody asked,

"Well, how would you say it now?"

You know, then we're like, "Okay, how would I say that?"

Well, it seems like in these situations,

you have a tendency to da-da-da-da-da-da,

or it feels to me like,

versus saying just like point the finger, you always do.

It feels to me like you have a tendency.

- Yeah, 'cause then you're taking ownership

for the feeling that you're having.

- Yeah, like it's my perception, right?

It's not just a total like, this is the way it is and such.

So those are a few things that come to my mind.

Yeah, I think it's also really important to make sure that you hear the other person.

And I think that's actually really vital that not only are you hearing them, but you're

helping them feel that they've been heard by you.

And that really needs to happen before you start responding to whatever the content is

of the crux of the matter, really just kind of making sure that they know you're understanding,

you're validating the feeling they're having, even if you don't agree with it.

And speaking of our situation discussion the other day, you actually brought something

up and you really did a good job and you do a great job of this most of the time of just

going like, "I'm not going to bring something up when I'm super worked up about it.

I'm going to take time to cool off, really think, and be level-headed."

But you were definitely unhappy about something and brought that up.

And it was not easy for me to listen to it.

And the longer you were sharing your feelings, the more I'm having to really hold back my

response.

And in the moment when you were done sharing, I violated the very thing that I just talked

about with letting the other person know that they had been hurt.

And I did not validate your feelings.

I didn't let you know that I heard what you had said, and instead I just moved too quickly

to something specific that you mentioned and asked a question about that.

And that was really hurtful to you, and we processed that.

But what I...

Yeah, as we like to talk about, then you end up having a fight about the fight you're having,

and that's definitely doubly not fun.

Oh, it's so irritating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And definitely because I didn't follow the practice of hearing you and validating your

things, it actually caused more pain and like you said, it just set everything back.

So I just really want to encourage people when your spouse brings up something that's

hurtful to them to really do your best to step outside of yourself and your own perspective

and that's really hard to do.

But it's really a mark of love and maturity to be able to say like, "I value you so much.

I'm going to put my own feelings aside, try to understand your perspective," and then

really express that you understand before you start talking about any of your own feelings

or thoughts or perspective on the matter.

And also really make sure to apologize sincerely for hurting someone, even if what you did

wasn't intentional or that you didn't even know that you hurt them.

Yeah, give them the image that we often use with disregard.

Yeah, I bet our kids could probably say this from memory, but we always talk about, "Hey,

If someone gets hurt by something intentional or unintentional, it doesn't matter.

And an unintentional thing could be like you're carrying this bowling ball around and you

accidentally drop it on someone's foot.

It hurt them.

Even if you didn't mean to do it, it still hurt them.

And if you'd actually did that in real life, you'd be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry that what I did caused you pain."

And so I think the same is true in a relational context where it has nothing to do with an

actual bowling ball.

- Yeah, right.

Can you imagine if you dropped a bowling ball

on somebody's foot and they were like, you know,

- Ouch, that hurt. - Like crying and praying.

- Yeah, right. - You're like, didn't mean to.

- Yeah. - That would not go well.

- You should have been tougher.

- Right, but we do that to each other relationally

and it needs to change.

Yeah, and then the last thing I would just say

about resolving conflict is this idea

of making repair attempts.

And we got this from a guy named Dan Gottman

who has written a book.

- John Gottman. - John Gottman, exactly.

Thank you.

Glad you're here to fix my details.

- That's what I usually do.

I don't remember the title of the book.

- Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work,

or Seven Habits or something.

- Wow, I think it's Seven Principles.

Nicely done.

I would have said it's seven something

and look it up online.

So we'll put that in the show notes.

He's not a believer, he's not a Christian dude,

but really has done extensive research

and research into healthy relationships,

what leads marriages to flourish and not.

But he talks about repair attempts

that after you've worked through a difficult thing,

somebody has gotta do something

to try to make it feel normal again.

- Right.

- And so we do that, like sometimes,

after we have some kind of conflict,

then you or I will make a little joke.

Now we've gotten to the level we can make a joke

about the conflict sometimes, which that's next level.

- Yeah, that's right.

- That flight was your what?

I don't know, your 20, your 15, I don't know when it was.

Probably your 20 or beyond. - Definitely double digits,

for sure.

- Yeah, that we could make a joke about the conflict.

But yeah, any other repair attempt examples

come to your mind?

- Yeah, well, I think sometimes the timing,

you know, when you're talking about a repair attempt,

it doesn't have to be like this conflict is done,

now I'm going to try and repair our relationship.

It's like, it's the thing that signals like,

hey, we're still buddies, you're still my favorite.

And sometimes it'll be like putting a hand on your leg

or going in for a hug or you do something

that makes me laugh or things like that.

- Sometimes you'll just say what you said,

you're still my favorite.

- Yeah, right.

- I always like hearing that, by the way.

- Oh, well, you're always my favorite.

- Oh, you're my favorite too.

- Oh, thanks.

I like that.

- Everybody's listening right now going,

you've gotta be kidding me.

- Sorry, it's 28 years in, man, and we are in love and best friends.

- That's right.

- Yeah. Hey, that's a good transition, actually.

- Speaking of which...

- To the next subject, yeah. So, the last thing we wanna talk about is staying connected physically.

Oh, intimate. Oh, hold on.

- This is not the last thing.

- This is not.

- Let's go back to how I talk about details.

- Yes, thank you.

- Second to last thing we wanna share.

- All right, second to last thing. I made a mistake, but this is actually very important

- Yes. - To getting the last.

The last thing is, just as a preview,

we're gonna talk about physical intimacy.

- Correct. - And that's exciting.

So, and you're taught, you're leading.

You asked to lead that point.

- I did. - I'm still just like,

wow, this is 28 years. - Yep.

- So I was excited about that,

but this point that I'm gonna lead off on,

I think is really a good,

lays the groundwork to that physical intimacy

side of things.

And this is really staying connected in life,

staying connected, especially emotionally. There's a verse that I love on this subject,

it's 1 Peter 3 verse 7, where Peter says, "Husbands, in the same way, be considerate

as you live with your wives." And that phrase, "be considerate," literally means live according

to your knowledge of them. And in other words, pay attention to your wife, understand her,

study her, know what makes her excited,

know what makes her sad, know what makes her nervous,

know what makes her feel joy.

That kind of intimate knowledge and treating her

according to that intimate knowledge.

And it's funny, I think, this is my theory,

I have no idea if it's true, maybe I'll ask Peter someday.

I think the reason why this is specifically said to husbands

is because you wives are doing it all the time.

Like I watch you, you're thinking about my needs,

you're thinking about the kids' needs,

We're thinking about the dog's needs when we had a dog.

I mean, everybody's and husbands were like,

home from work, time to eat.

(laughing)

- That can be true, that can be true.

But I do think this whole idea of like,

according to knowledge is just so important.

Like you have to learn another person.

And that takes like intentional studying and drawing out.

- Yeah, and I think that one of the best ways we do that

is by asking good questions of one another.

And so maybe you wanna go through,

well, how about, do you want me to go through

some of the questions Jesus asked?

- Yeah. - I'll do it, okay.

So I think about some of the questions Jesus asked,

and it's interesting, Jesus actually asked

far more questions than he answered,

which just says a lot right off the bat

that he was asking questions.

John chapter five verse six, "Do you want to get well?"

He's really asking a deeper question

of what's inside a person at that point.

Luke 24:38, he asks, "Why are you troubled?"

Again, trying to probe what's going on in the inside of you.

John 20:15, "Why are you crying?"

Now, let's remind ourselves, Jesus,

he's both fully God and fully man.

Probably in his mind, it's obvious why the person's crying.

He's trying to pull it out of them for a conversation.

Matthew 17, verse 25, "What do you think?" Jesus asked.

And again, trying to get in there and pull things out.

And so I really think questions are one of the most

powerful things we have to understand our spouse.

- Yeah, for sure.

And I think it's a really good way to stay connected

is by asking good questions.

And you do such a great job of this, Brian.

I know we both ask each other questions.

- For sure.

- You've already mentioned some of the things

Jesus has asked about, and we've already shared, about rhythms of staying connected with daily

check-ins and going for a coffee drive or a date each week and then those overnights

during the year.

So there are rhythms and you pair that with good questions and it's just an awesome combination.

And a lot of the questions that we ask can be anything from like, "What'd you do today?"

It's knowing.

It's knowing the other person's world.

But then going deeper with things that are more like, "How's your heart?"

Or what have you been dreaming about lately?

Or is there anything that you've been worried about or anxious about lately?

What are you thinking about today or this week or in this season?

And I love...

You do a great...

One of your great questions is just, "Hey, what did God say to you in your devotions

today?"

Yeah.

And just leading, bringing that out, and it's just really cool.

That'll end up becoming a great conversation.

Yeah, I love asking that because it's really cool to hear someone say what their inner

life is like with the Lord.

And you could do a little peek on that, but then it just really helps me know you better.

And I know when you ask me questions, it's so meaningful to me because it really communicates

value to me, and it also helps me figure out what in the world I am thinking and feeling,

and I don't always know that.

And you do a really good job of just making space without an agenda.

And this happens when we're on our coffee drives frequently, where we don't have an

agenda, we don't have a set time always that we have to be backed by.

Sometimes we do, but there's just like, it's a free for all of the questions.

And there have been more times than not that you'll, you'll open the door

in a question for me and I will talk the entire hour that we're driving and

parked at the beach or wherever we go.

And sometimes there's crying, not always, but you know, you just do

as such a good job of listening and, and help helping me articulate

what's happening on the inside.

Well, that's kind of you to say, but I mean, there have been plenty of times where you

reciprocate and I've definitely dominated a few of those.

And that's the balance and the give and take of it.

I think that both of us really delight in hearing what's going on in the other person's

heart.

Yeah.

And if it's a day where you've got a lot to pour out, then I'm just gonna listen and ask

good questions and all that.

And if it's a day where I have a lot going on, then you're glad to help me process that.

We always end up coming out more energized.

For sure.

And I think we also just try to be intentional to not go beyond like, "So what's on your

agenda today?

I have to do these five tasks and when are we going to do X, Y, Z?

Who's going to pick up kids?"

Or whatever.

But it's like really seeking to go deeper.

That's really important.

Yeah.

It's like the daily check-ins on the plans and all those things obviously have to happen.

got their place. But what we would just really encourage couples to do is make sure they're

asking questions that lead them to deeper places whenever they possibly can. Well, we

are at our final, final topic before we get to some questions today. And it's the one

that... Some people have been listening and thinking, "Okay, when are they gonna get to

the whole physical intimacy sort of conversation?" So I'm gonna hand it off to you.

It's now.

It's now. It's happening. And again, I was like, when you said, "Hey, I wanna tackle

this one and lead out. I was like, "Man, this might be the best moment of my life." So yeah,

you just go. I'm listening. I'm the student.

Oh, you're the student. Okay. Well, I just think part of the reason why I wanted to speak

to this is because I think there can be this perception that physical intimacy, like prioritizing

physical intimacy is something that matters most to husbands and it doesn't always matter

as much to wives. And I just think that is a fallacy and we got to break that down because

This is really a crucial area of marriage to cultivate.

And too many couples let their schedules or their kids

or other things dictate their sex life

and their physical intimacy,

and we just can't let that happen.

So 1 Corinthians 7, verse five says,

"Do not deprive each other,

except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time,

so that you can devote yourselves to prayer.

Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you

because of your lack of self-control.

And I think this verse is so good,

and it is such a good thing to see

that right out of the Bible,

married couples have a command to have regular sex.

It's in the Bible.

It's God's best design for married couples.

- Yeah, and not only best design,

but then it's this idea of there's a dangerous consequence

for not when he says, "Or else Satan may tempt you."

So it's like, on the one hand,

that's best designed come together, the two shall be one.

But on the flip side, when you're not practicing

that oneness in a physical sort of expression,

you're putting yourself at risk, at jeopardy,

and there is real spiritual warfare.

And it's funny, we don't think of sex

as a part of spiritual warfare,

but according to this text, it is.

- Yeah, well, I mean, the more connected and united

and based on love and intimacy that you are,

Like, who can stand against that, right?

I mean, that's a really galvanizing thing

that God's given to married couples.

And I think it's also okay to acknowledge

that husbands and wives do have different sex drives.

And it is not formulaic always

that one gender has more than the other.

But that being said, I do think that typically,

husbands have more of a drive than wives do.

And so the question is how to navigate that.

Like, again, getting practical.

How do we actually live this out?

And I think that honestly, the best way to live this out is really through good communication

and to really be talking with each other about your baseline expectations and to get on the

same page and then to live out the expectations that you have.

And so many couples have kind of that baseline expectation of being physically intimate at

least once a week, prioritizing sex in their life once a week.

And sometimes it's more.

And you can be intimate in other ways outside of sex throughout the week, but these are

all things that we've talked about and we would really encourage couples to be transparent

and not assume, but to really talk about with each other.

Yeah, that's right.

That's so good.

And I think that it's really important to recognize sexual intimacy is one of the great

gifts that God has given us to strengthen our marriage.

And when we've talked about whether it's date nights or getting away for the weekends, there's

such a cost involved, all this time, and if you go out to a meal or whatever, that's expensive,

you have to get babysitting, all this stuff.

And it might sound a little weird to say it, but being physically intimate with your spouse

does not cost you anything.

I mean, you have to make some time, but it's not like, "Oh, we have to necessarily get

babysitters and all that."

It's just this gift God has given us that's always available and it strengthens marriage.

Now, we need to say that sex can never be used as a bargaining chip or a point of manipulation.

That's really important to keep marriage healthy, but it is a gift and every time you connect

in that fashion, it's so much bigger than just the physical side.

Right.

And I think just like when we were talking about cultivating friendship and the importance

of cultivating friendship and when you're not doing that, that you start to drift away,

I think the same is true with physical intimacy.

We both know couples that have not prioritized physical intimacy because of their schedules

or kids or baggage in their past.

That's legit.

I mean, baggage is out there in spades.

And when couples don't address their baggage and when they don't prioritize their physical

intimacy, then that drift and divide gets deeper and they drift farther apart.

And so it's really important to, again, reorient your life so that this is prioritized and

it's never too late.

Yeah.

Never too late to continue to invest and figure out a way to get back to a healthier place

or establish a healthy place in your physical intimacy.

Totally.

I think for couples who are really in a stuck place because of maybe past hurts, wounds,

There are, and some might not realize this who are listening, there are professional

Christian sex therapists.

I think the Christian part of that is really important.

And so I would just encourage anybody listening who just feels like, "Man, we've got some

major roadblocks," find a Christian sex therapist where you live and start working that through.

We did get a question that I think is a really valid question when we were talking about

this at our marriage night at church, of a couple asked, "What if you have young kids

or just in general the challenge of kids?"

I mean, I hear you saying, "Christina, prioritize," and all that, but we've been through those

days and times where it's...

Man, it's tough.

And I guess any wisdom comes to mind when it comes to making it happen when you've got

kids around and...

It's not just the two of you that live in your house?

Yeah, exactly.

But that's interesting because we've walked through all the seasons.

We are empty nesters now, but we walk through all the seasons.

And I think when your kids are little, of course, they go to bed early and you've got

a little more time in the night.

But how you show up in that space really matters because if you show up exhausted and you're

just not prepared to be in that place of connection with your spouse, that's not really prioritizing

physical intimacy.

So I think being intentional to say, "How can I be in this place and be prepared and

mentally, physically ready?"

And I think just speaking transparently, when our kids got older, we had to get super creative

because they never sleep.

They stay up so late.

And it's just hard to find those windows.

And I don't know, you got a little bit more directive, shall we say.

Yeah.

- I wanna circle back on something you just said

when the kids were little

and even when they're not little little,

but just kind of grown up.

You know, there's spontaneous sex and there's planned sex.

And spontaneous is always everybody's favorite, of course.

Planned is not as in a sense great

'cause it's just you're planning it.

It has to be all intentional.

That being said, to your point earlier

about how you show up,

I think that when we knew we needed

to be a little bit more intentional on the schedule side,

that is when you have to think about a variety of things

of what does it mean to show up well.

And I just think that we, part of navigating

that season of life when kids are a factor

is knowing you might have to do some planning.

It's not gonna be all just spontaneous magic

and we're gonna have to be intentional.

And it's, yeah, I think that's part of it.

I think that as our kids got older, then it really did.

I mean, we were, I think appropriately,

although more than some would feel comfortable

with candid with our kids about the importance

of marital intimacy to us.

We didn't get into all the details,

but I think that gave us a platform at times

as the kids got older to say like,

you know, we shared this before,

but I would like say to,

I remember saying to Kalen in particular,

here's 20 bucks and go take your brother

to Captain Sunday on the south side of town,

which is like, what, 15, at least maybe more minutes

from our house, and stay there a while.

- Or better yet, go to Chick-fil-A for dinner,

and then go to Captain's Sunday for dessert.

- That's right, that's right.

Yeah, so we would just figure out different ways

to try to create space.

And it didn't always work, but I think that's,

you just have to really be intentional.

It feels weird to use this term regarding

making time to be physically intimate,

but sometimes you really just have to fight for those times.

- You do.

I mean, anything that has a high value

has a high cost that comes with it.

And it requires a high level of intentional investment.

And I think this is no exception to that.

And so you've gotta be flexible about,

maybe it's not gonna be this romantic setup

like you were talking about earlier.

Maybe the window is in the middle of the day

'cause your kids are all gone or whatever.

I mean, just saying, you gotta be like,

I think you know, outside of the box,

and making sure that your priority is your marriage,

your relationship with the Lord, your marriage,

and then your kids, you know,

and everything else after that.

- Yeah, and I think one of the things

that really has been good for us

as we've gotten kind of further and further into our marriage

is just being creative in our physical intimacy.

And I think that probably best to point

to some resources here than getting all,

kind of in the details on this.

But I think Gary Thomas' book, "Married Sex"

has been really good.

And there are some resources out there to be found.

I'm just gonna say it,

different sexual positions that married couples can try,

and this feels like a funny thing to say,

but at the end of the day,

we need to figure out how to keep things fresh.

We don't wanna get in a rut.

And I think that that's been,

it's been really good for us

as we've tried to be more creative,

because in the process, it requires more communication, more vulnerability, emotionally,

physically, all that, and a little bit more courage just relationally to say, "Okay, we're

gonna try to press in in some different ways." And all that builds trust.

Totally, all that builds trust. So that's been really good for us as we've had 28 years of

marriage. And to be able to say, I mean, this is such a cool thing, to say at 28 years of marriage,

our culture is like this stereotype of you just meet someone and everything's new, and that's

like the best sex, and it's what's on TV, and those kinds of things. And research says that's

just the opposite, that the most satisfied people are not just the people who have been married the

longest, but actually, evangelical Christians report being of any other group. And it's really

cool for us to be able to say 28 years in, we are at our best place of sexual intimacy we've ever

been. And so that's just to give encouragement to those listening to make it an intentional

commitment, and God's gonna bless that, and it's a big deal. So I'm looking at the clock. We've got

time for some questions. Do you have... Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Before we get to the questions, you brought up Christian sex therapists for this subject

specifically, but I just wanna throw it out there. We're putting out some principles today,

and there may be couples who really need a professional Christian therapist to walk through

areas of hurt in their marriage or where they're just feeling stuck, not just in their sex life,

but it might be other things. And there is just no shame in getting involved in that. And if

that's a step that you need to take, I just really wanna encourage couples to take that step.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Well, do we have some questions here?

We do.

Okay.

All right. So I'll take the first...

I haven't seen all these, so we'll see what happens here.

That's right. All right, I'll take the first question.

Okay.

So somebody asked us, preparing for the marriage night, "How do you keep your heart soft

towards each other?" And I think this is a great question because it can be really easy to just

just kind of get in a, maybe you're not hardened

towards your spouse, but maybe you're not

really soft towards them, and you might just

kind of be indifferent.

- Or you might get, I mean, when you get,

if you let yourself, we all have things

that are irritating about ourselves.

We always see what's irritating about the other person,

but we all have things, so we are going to,

you're gonna have things about your personality

that are gonna get me a little more irritated,

I'm gonna for sure, I know, have plenty of things. And so when you have those little annoyances,

it can definitely get to be something where you start to feel like your heart gets hardened.

- Yeah, for sure.

- Over time, it's not even a neutral thing.

- Right, right. There's a whole spectrum. You're absolutely right. And I think for us,

what we've found in order to keep our heart soft towards the other person, first stems from

humility of just remembering our own faults and that we are not all that.

And you are not made to be me.

I didn't want to marry myself.

I wanted to marry you.

And so just to be remembering my own faults and the ways that I am broken, and then on

the flip side of that, remembering my spouse's strengths and the things that are uniquely

incredible about how they're wired, the way that they enter into a space, what they bring

to the world.

And I think that place of humility towards self and celebrating the other person can

really help keep you in a place of a soft-hearted posture towards your spouse.

Yeah.

Okay, so next question, I'm going to throw it to you, Brian.

What advice would you give to newlyweds?

That is a really good question.

And of course, in some ways, what advice I would give to newlyweds is everything we just

got done talking about for the last bit of time.

So it really makes me think about, okay, what are some of those key things that we learned

over time?

I think one of them for me was saying...

Well, we came up with this phrase, we got it from somebody else, but saying the last

10% when it comes to conflict.

And so when you're entering in a tough space, you're trying to name something that hurt

your feelings, that was frustrating, disappointing, whatever.

There's this temptation to shave some of the edges off of it to make it a little bit more

palatable.

And I think that I really myself had to grow in courage and being able to say the last

10%.

but I think we got better and better when you said the last 10% and when I did, we got

better and better at dealing with it.

And the thing that's good is once that last 10% is communicated, it really feels like

you can experience full reconciliation about a challenging thing.

You don't have that little bit that you didn't name.

So I think that was one thing.

I think another thing that was early on a big deal that we learned together, and maybe

you don't wanna expand on this,

is not relying on our spouse first,

but relying on God first when it comes to purpose,

joy, satisfaction, direction, comfort.

- Yeah, for sure.

And I would say just to tag onto your last 10%,

definitely true in conflict,

but also just maybe even confession

or things that feel vulnerable in general.

- Yeah, that's good.

- So yeah, just to go all the way there.

I think that, yeah, that whole reliance on God

over relying on your spouse is definitely something that I personally had to do a lot

of work on.

We've told this story many times before about how when we were really early married and

we were having this conflict about something, I don't even remember what it was, but I just

remember I was super mad at you.

We were not able to resolve that conflict in the moment and so we took some time apart

to really just take a break and even just have time to pray about it, think it through

a little bit more, and I realized that I was looking to you to be something that I really

needed to be looking to God for.

And I was putting on you things that should not be put on a person.

Now, to be fair, whatever I did was legit irritating.

I forget what it was, but it was legit.

So it wasn't that it wasn't irritating, it was just probably irritating you more than

maybe what it should have.

- Yeah, and maybe even people around us might have said,

"Oh no, you have the right level of irritation

"based on what the culture says," right?

But I knew like this isn't, you know,

the Lord really showed me,

this is not a proportionate response.

And the reason you're upset is because Brian's not designed

to take that role in your life.

That's what God's designed to do,

whatever that feeling I was having was.

And I think too, like sometimes earlier in my marriage,

I might, our marriage, I might show up to a place and just really rely on you to do

the heavy lifting in the places that I felt a little weak about, and that's not really

fair to you, and it really caused me to kind of have a less developed sense of self in

some different ways because you were so strong in some things, and I just kind of let you

do it.

And so I think just really looking to say, "I need to rely on God to do what only God

can do and I need to be courageous and continue to encourage growth in my own life and not

rely on you for things that I shouldn't be.

That's good.

This next question I feel like is one where you really, I mean, you're the master at this

one in many ways.

So this is the question.

How do you deal with the comparison game in regards to uneven workloads?

And man, that's a good one.

I think that it's interesting because in our marriage there have been times, you do a lot,

and you always have done a lot.

I have a very demanding job, and we've recognized that from day one, and you've been super awesome

about saying, "Hey, I get being the lead pastor of a growing church is a unique thing."

But especially even when you started working, it's like, you're managing home stuff, the

calendar. Uh, I would love to be better at details, but I am not.

And so you do the budget stuff and we've had to figure out what that looks like.

So I guess, um, I'll just say first off, like Christina's a superstar.

Everybody needs to know that she does amazing amounts of stuff and we

would fail quickly as a family.

If it weren't for all of your incredible contributions. Now, that being said,

how do you deal with the comparison game with uneven workloads?

And it's funny because I think that when that question,

the premise of the question is probably uneven workloads

around the home and family specifically,

because in some ways my workload has been,

it's uneven with my job has a heavier workload,

but on the home front, I wouldn't,

I would say that this is probably

what that questioner is asking.

And I think that, you know, a couple of things

and be interested to hear what you say on this too.

We've really tried to be careful

about having a keeping score mentality,

trying to just have that attitude of, man, I am here to serve my spouse. Ephesians 5. I mean,

man, I'm here to serve, you're here to serve, and we're not here to make sure that it's,

oh, we're trying to hit the 50/50 mark. So that's been one thing that's big on our heart.

I think one thing you've really done well is communicating your feelings. And again,

this has been a thing you've had to do more. And I guess it feels like it'd be cool for you

to expand on it because I think there have been times you've had to raise some things.

We've had to have some discussions.

Discussions. Yeah, you're so sweet to say all those things, Brian, but I think that

just over the years, because I think we went into our life more intentionally with understanding

what God was calling us to, and we've continued to come back to that in different seasons,

What's God calling us to now?

What is your role?

What is my role?

Like we discern that together.

That's really important.

And then, and I think you're absolutely right of like not comparing and it could be that

my list has X number more than your things, but I don't think that means the weight is

necessarily different.

It might mean that I'm responsible for more tasks, but I really see the weight that you

carry is very heavy as well.

And so I think that's really important to look at.

And then in terms of just communicating feelings, there just are different seasons in life where

it's like, "Hey, I'm just feeling overloaded and I feel like I'm doing a lot right now

and for whatever reason, I just need some backup.

How can we address that?"

And so I think being able to say that, even going back to our conflict resolution point,

Being able to say that in a calm and believing the best kind of way place is really important

because I know your heart is to be on the same page with me and to serve me and I have

to sometimes stop and say, "No, you are doing things that help me and help our family.

It's not all about the things I'm doing."

And I know your heart in that and so I can believe the best and just say, "Hey, can we

address this somehow?"

The other thing that comes to mind-

And let me just interrupt there because I think that

when you have brought stuff up, I mean, in the flesh,

I'm just gonna say it, and I'm sure there are others

who are feeling it, if your spouse brings something up

about workload and he or she is feeling overly burdened,

but in this case you were bringing that up,

man, I am like hitting it hard on the work front.

And then I'm coming home at whatever time,

and it's just, it's a demanding season or whatever,

And what I really need to do, and there was a season where I just remember adding several

things to my plate for when I got home.

And ultimately, it was like, "Yeah, step up, be a man, sacrifice more, she is killing it,

and suck it up, do more around the house and help out."

And I think that in the flesh, I wasn't sitting there going, "Oh, I'm so excited about that,

I love you and I want to see you be radiant and that's what it meant to be committed to

that value.

It's a great perspective and just two things that I was going to say.

One, launching off what you said, I think it was a book I read at some point when I

was home with little kids full time and it's everything you're doing in that kind of a

season, I'll say everything, but a lot of it is super mundane and nobody's going to

be like, "Wow, thanks for folding the laundry."

You know, like, I mean, maybe you might say that sometimes, but our kids are definitely

never saying like, "Thank you for all the things you're doing."

Like, they don't know to do that.

And so I think it's like looking again to the Lord to say, "How can I experience you

in these moments that are very behind the scenes, very servant-hearted like things,

or have a servant heart, but very serving others oriented?

How can I find joy in that?

How can I find purpose in that?

How can I connect with the Lord who humbled himself to serve us and his disciples?"

So identifying with the Lord and asking for him to redeem those moments I think is really

great.

And then lastly, I think we heard early in our marriage a couple talking about they didn't

always go for a win-win in a situation, they went for a lose-lose.

And what I loved about that is it really took off, like, "I need to have this so I feel

great and what I want is valued."

And it really changed the perspective to say, "How can I serve you?"

And I feel like that is the heart of Jesus, is I want to serve you and love you and submit

to one another.

And so I think when we get into that posture of servanthood and really seeking to honor

and love the other person, that's what it takes to sort these things out at times.

Well, hey, let's wrestle with one last thing.

It comes up a lot and I thought it would be fun to hit.

In Ephesians 5, it talks about husbands being the head of their households, and talks about

wives submitting to their husbands, and then it talks about husbands serving their wives

as Christ served the church.

And this passage gets a lot of discussion because it's like, "Oh my gosh, how does

this say that wives are supposed to submit to their husbands?"

So I thought it'd be fun just for a second to touch base on this, what it looks like

in our marriage.

I think the first thing we wanna say is Ephesians 5:21

talks about submit to one another.

And so we do recognize there is a place

for mutual submission to each other.

But that being said, and that verse frames up

the whole conversation in the Bible,

but that being said, there is something unique

about husband-wife roles.

And so we do take the view that husbands

are the spiritual head of their household,

they're called to lead.

And I guess for what we think about that,

as far as how it plays out,

is I think of that really saying,

man, the sort of the buck stops with me,

with making sure that our family is spiritually moving

in the right direction.

That doesn't mean I would ever do that unilaterally.

It just means I'm always thinking about that.

I'm prompting conversations about that.

My heart is attuned to how you're doing,

how our family's doing,

where is God's call in our life?

And just making sure that we're constantly processing that

and keeping it at the forefront.

So that's a lot of what I think of.

I would love to hear just your thoughts,

and we've joked about this as far as

what submission looks like and all this.

And yeah, let's just wrap on this a little bit,

see what happens.

- Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes, like you said,

this section of scripture can get a bad rap.

And I think it's really important that we look at the whole of Scripture, because even

in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is a submission.

Jesus submits to the will of the Father, and I think that is really important.

And it's important to think about verses like, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved

the church and gave himself up for her."

Like I don't have a problem submitting to someone who is giving himself up for me.

You know what I mean?

Right.

And so...

So that's a challenge to husbands because...

Right.

Yeah, if I'm loving you as Jesus loved the church with that kind of sacrifice, that kind

of diligence, that kind of determination, I mean...

What's not to love?

Yeah, right.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, but we're not always gonna get it right, and in the flesh, sometimes I feel like I

just don't generally like anyone telling me to submit to anything 'cause I just kinda

wanna be in charge.

Yeah, which is true for all of us.

Exactly.

I think it's okay to admit that, and I have to ask where that's coming from at times.

But I also think that the way it's worked out in our marriage, there are times when

we have to make a line of scrimmage call.

And because we've had this understanding of like, we've wrestled with what the Bible says,

and we've said we want to follow our understanding of what the Bible says, even though it's not

always easy, we've had the conversation.

And so when the line of scrimmage call comes and we have to call an audible and make a

decision in the moment, we just have to live it out and to say, "Okay, we believe that

God's called you to be the head of our marriage and our household.

And so if we can't come to a conclusion that we both have clarity on, we're going to default

to your leadership in that place."

And I think that's just the way that it works really well for us.

And again, even though it works well, it doesn't mean it's always easy, but I think our intent

is to always be on the same page and to have unity wherever and whenever possible.

Yeah, totally.

And that's the thing that sometimes, it just feels like sometimes when couples get tense

about this passage, you've done a great job respecting my voice, respecting my leadership

and the family, but sometimes couples get so worried that, "Well, is this gonna turn

into... Is he some kind of dictator and he's all that?"

No, right.

We have had so few things, and I love looking at research on these subjects, and so I can't

help but bring that a little bit to bear here, that research shows that couples who take

a historic Christian perspective on this topic, they don't have all of these situations where

husbands like, "Well, I'm the head of the household." To me, being a good spiritual leader

is we are processing these things together. Almost all of the time, if we don't immediately,

through just a conversation, get on the same page, we say, "Let's slow down, let's pray about it

longer, and then let's come back together again." And almost always, we end up on the same page.

Now, there have been times, we were talking about this once recently, where I think it was when we

were praying about having our third child. Where there were times where one of us felt more so,

and then one felt, "I'm not feeling it," and so on and so forth. And then there was a season where

it was like, I was just like, "Lord, I'm open. I wasn't feeling this big pull, let's have a third

or not. You are feeling like, I feel like it's time." We went with that prompt and man, like

best thing ever, right? Then we've got Evan. So that was a good place where it was like,

we worked together, but I ended up deferring to your feeling of what the Lord was saying and

was glad to do that. So I just think that it's really good for those who are listening, who are

either married or going to be married, to recognize this isn't like a husband calls all the shots.

Yeah, right, right.

You know, we work these things out together.

Totally. And again, going back to like it's a spirit of mutual submission,

And when you're in an overall marital culture of honor, of trust, of mutual submission,

of servanthood, all of those kind of characteristics.

And like we even talked about way at the beginning of the podcast about the things that manifest

when we grow closer to the Lord, the fruits of the spirit, like getting hung up on this

one thing, it's out of balance because when it's in that broader context, it just works

naturally, because again, I think it's God's best design.

Well, that's a great note to end on, and it's awesome that you just said that, 'cause I

was thinking about one last research point, and then we'll close.

The crazy thing about all this is, even with all of the pushback the culture gives on traditional

biblical views when it comes to husbands and wives and their respective roles, again, research

shows that couples who take these more traditional, if we'll say it that way, views, we just say

biblical, are the happiest married couples in the entire culture.

Come on, that's awesome.

So it's...

Again, it's one of these things where we can fight about it, we can argue about it, we

can feel all the tensions about it, but man, sometimes on all kinds of subjects, can we

just read God's Word, do our best to understand it in context, and then apply it to our lives

and not constantly fight with God about, "Why did you say that?

And how could you have said that?"

just actually live it, and as Jesus himself said, "When you live the truth, you discover

it does indeed set you free."

And so I just wanna encourage all of our listeners in that regard.

Christina, it has been wonderful hanging out with you for another podcast.

Same to you, Brian.

I'm glad we got to do this again.

I am glad too, and we've got some more topics still in the archives.

So keep your phone handy because you might get another call from me, or I could just

say something across the kitchen table, I don't know.

- I'm ready.

- All right, good deal.

Well, hey, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation today.

It's been so good to talk marriage

and I hope for those who are married,

it's been an encouragement,

maybe even a challenge for those who are not married yet.

Man, file all this away

because some of the things we even said today,

honestly, can be applied to relationships

outside of marriage.

Some things are very marital,

but even when we talk about strategies

for conflict resolution,

that has broader applications than just marriage.

Asking questions about people

and understanding what's going on in their inner worlds.

Man, you can apply that to people you work with,

to good friendships.

So there's a lot that can be applied

to relationships outside of marriage,

but all of it applies to marriage

and will help your marriage or future marriage prosper.

If this has been a good conversation for you,

if it has been helpful, please rate and review the show.

Again, massive encouragement to our team.

This has been a production of Engedi Church

and we have more great conversations coming your way.

So until next time, just know God made you to advance.