Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

Helen: hello

and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Ice studio with Helen

Lewis, Ian Hislop and Richard Brooks.

So we have just had, uh, an American import to the UK in the

form of Saturday Night Live uk.

It's a big American show that's come here after kind of 50 years,

but we have just announced a really successful new export to America,

which is the idea of having a mad king.

Uh, America's taken that on and they've been running with it.

And Helen, I believe you've been following how, just how well it's been

going.

Yeah, I mean, so much, so much winning.

So obviously Donald Trump, uh, I mean, I'm hesitant to say anything

about the Iran War because it's, it's existing in this sort of quantum super

position of whatever Donald Trump says is currently happening with it.

He currently says.

It's, he's negotiating with Iranians.

Iranians say, we dunno what talking about.

He did announce that just after the markets had opened after a

pretty grizzly couple of days.

So who knows where we'll be by the time this goes out.

But essentially what we now know after four weeks of war is that

they didn't have any contingency planning about what would happen if

the straight of formers got closed.

Mm-hmm.

They assumed per report in the New York Times that based on Israeli intelligence

it looks like that Iranian protestors would rise up and overthrow the

regime, which is so far not happened.

Yeah.

and that they wouldn't at any point have to put kind of boot.

on the ground.

Boots

are now kind of sailing over boots

are hovering over the ground.

I would say at the moment.

So you know that, and that is an incredibly symbolic thing for America

to do, but the main thing about it is the fact that it has really

revealed is no one in this White House who can say no to Donald Trump.

And why is that?

Because they were all hand selected to be people who

wouldn't say no to Donald Trump.

Such a que question on application.

That's reason.

reasonable answer.

Well, but in one way.

Look at it.

One, one of the qualifications to work in that White House is you have

to believe that Donald Trump was grievously robbed of the election.

Right.

You have to be a kind of reality denier in favor of the cult

of, you know, um, presidente.

So by saying that you have to say, you know, you've accepted

this one thing, your loyalty to Trump matters more than the facts.

You can kind of see everything else flows from that.

But

Ian: fact is quite important in the

run up to a war.

I mean, the failures of intelligence

you've

described could

be applied to Iraq or

Helen: some of

Ian: the other, um, adventures or

picnics or whatever.

What is the definition for the war at the

moment?

Um,

Helen: I

believe it's a Shara Bank

tour.

Ian: a Shara bank to, but again, none of this was, um, unforeseeable.

Why did no one mention any

of it?

Helen: Did he even know about things like, you know, oil going

through the straightforward boots

Richard: you know, did he think about that?

He's making these decisions, isn't he, without talking about anybody?

Does it occur to him that, hang on, there's gonna be

Helen: a

Yeah, we don't, A consequence like that.

We don't, I they do seem to have been completely caught on the hop by that.

I think the way that their intelligence was was essentially, we'll go in,

you know, take out the io toler and the whole thing will

collapse like a house of cards.

we'll be home and sort of teeing medals.

And that is obviously not what has happened.

The regime has basically said, well, hang on a minute, what, like,

what's the point of negotiating?

Right.

that's the fascinating thing, is that Donald Trump has been hopping

from foot to foot for days now, obviously desperate to negotiate an

end to the war that he can claim as a another great Donald Trump victory.

And the Iranians are the ones who really don't

see what's in

that for them.

What we have at the moment, as as you said, um, Donald Trump has

just declared that he spoke to Iran and he now graciously won't bomb

energy infrastructure for five days.

Whereas previously it was a 48 hour deadline and the Iranians have said, well,

we haven't, we haven't had that chat.

Uh, so we dunno who you were talking to.

Uh, I mean, things are probably quite chaotic at the top of the

regime at the moment, obviously.

well, everyone's got Donald Trump's phone number, so it's quite possible

that someone with been what an Iranian accent has phoned him up

claiming to be the Iranian foreign And they had a very good chat.

But the

last time Donald Trump said things were going well in negotiations,

I, I had a little check.

It was the 6th of February, if you can remember all the way back then.

He

said the talks they were having had been very good and it looks like

they want to make a deal very badly.

but it was about three weeks before he

unleashed Armageddon.

So maybe his word on the how the talk's going is not, not gospel.

I have this vision of,

Ian: of Donald Trump inventing.

A talk at one end and the other end there's a, an Ayatollah

who may or may not be alive.

We don't know.

Yeah.

There's a series of men who you see grainy footage of in bunkers who may or may not

be talking to each other or to anyone else who's actually in charge of a missile.

I'm, I'm not quite sure how these

Helen: talks are happening.

they're clearly not.

That's the problem.

just, there's been so much chat wasted on

Andy: Trump's

Helen: reasons for doing things as though there are reasons,

but you're right.

I mean, it's a crisis

for international depro diplomacy if you end up with a leader that nobody

believes a word that they say and they go back on themselves all the time.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

If, even if America was sending out very strong signals of being

utterly bonkers, consistently.

That would be something that people could work with.

But the problem is that everybody, and you know, I do feel a great deal

of sympathy for Ki Stama and Rachel Reeves in this because all of their

fiscal plans for the entire year Yeah.

Are resting on what Mad King Donald Rampaging down the haha in his white night

shirt flapping behind him, decides to do

Richard: next.

Although it

does give them a bit of a

Helen: a let out, doesn't it?

Richard: Because, you know, global turmoil is a bit like COVID and

Helen: so on.

Richard: Um,

if I were Rachel Reeves,

I'd be thinking few,

you know, at least I'm not gonna be held to those plans.

You know,

Helen: the thing you said about, The purity test of, of saying

that, you know, Donald Trump won the 2020 election and that's,

Andy: the sort of threshing machine

Helen: you have to pass your brain through in order to be

accepted into Donald Trump's inner

circle.

Andy: It's weirdly reminiscent of

Helen: what happened to the conservative party after Brexit, where you had

the Boris Johnson cabinet, which was only loyalists, you know, all of the,

anyone who disagreed was cleared out.

You know, they, they kind of left of the Tory party and the centrist and

the people who thought Brexit looks like a might be not a brilliant idea.

They

were all cleared out,

I think even before then

When, but what, so for a long time, if you wanted to get selected as a tour p

during the 2010s or the late two thousands, the question that came up

in selection meetings was well, you think about leaving the European Union.

And, you know, it was a very popular thing to say, so you had a lot of

people who had never looked into it.

Or didn't think it was a great idea, but also thought it was never gonna

happen, just going, going along with it.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's, that is exactly the problem we're seeing repeated is that

people who just think, well, it doesn't matter if I just make this one compromise.

Right.

Actually know sometimes that bill does come to you.

Ian: And

how does it happen that the head of counter-terrorism, who from

what I dread I assumed, was pretty much full on Trump loon, um, has

declared that trump's a loon.

Helen: Um,

Ian: uh, what on

Helen: earth are we

Ian: here?

What, why is this man suddenly, um, the

Helen: new bellwether?

Well, a new type of loon is rising in the east.

No, hang minute in the west.

Um, actually, is, he is Joe Ket.

We're talking about resigned and he made a fair point in the resignation

letter, which was a bit about this kind of idea that the US has embarked

on a joint war here with Israel.

And actually that maybe this might be suiting the Israelis rather

than more than the Americans.

But he then brought in this other stuff how his wife was

killed in Syria by, by bombing.

About how that was another Israel led, uh, foreign war.

And that shades into lots of things he said in the past that shade into the idea

that actually maybe the Jewish state and then maybe by extension Jews are maybe

controlling America's foreign policy.

In the kind of way that if you saw somebody saying it online, your eyes

would, would go up and go, is this going to just stay as a strictly

clear critique of foreign policy

Ian: or

is this is it gonna end

Helen: is it gonna

end up where

I

think it

is

in a little bit puppet master hands in the cartoon.

Right.

Um, and I think that's, that is.

an emerging strain of maga.

So there are people who are both anti-Israel for very principled reasons

in the sense that they think it is a foreign war adventurism and that America's

foreign policy should be dictated by America's interest first, and that those

don't lie in wars in the Middle East.

But there are also some flat out white supremacists who have glommed on to Maga,

who are anti-Jewish Holocaust deniers.

Um, people like Nick Fuentes, who I've mentioned before.

Yeah.

But this has caused, this, going into a war with Israel has caused

a split in the, what you might call the kind of MAGA elite.

So I looked at the polling and actually voters who self identify

as maga, 90% of them backed strikes on Iran at the start of the war.

That may have softened up since then.

Only 70%.

Only 77% of those who define as Republican back it.

Right.

So being MAGA is being, you know, Donald Trump, right or wrong to some extent.

But within the elite people like Tucker Carlson, Meghan

Kelly, have.

Started to, and the kind of podcast comedian class.

So Theo Vaughn, Joe Rogan,

you can't

Andy: you

can't lose the

Helen: podcast

comedians, they're,

Andy: they're a

Helen: core

demographic,

right?

But they, they're a core demographic, right?

Because they all swung behind Trump in 2024.

Right?

But they have been, to their credit, Joe Rogan is, is not a big fan

of foreign wars in the way that Donald Trump wants wasn't right.

And so they being a little bit more of a distance removed, um, have

been, uh, have been quite critical.

I'm just gonna read you out something 'cause just to give you a sense of the

level of debate is currently happening.

Right.

So Mark Levin very pro-Israel taught radio host Versus Meghan Kelly X. Fox News.

She'll remember

her.

Andy: Is anyone involved Not

Helen: in broadcast?

No.

That's the wi, right?

Okay.

everyone is 12 and everyone is a chat show host.

Those are the only things

Ian: you

need

to know

that explains so

much about

Helen: war, the war, everything about what?

American politics.

Okay.

So me, Kelly, first of all, attacks Mark Levin saying,

calling him MicroPen Mark Levin.

Right.

and Saying that's why he's in favor of this war.

He then says, busy Sunday morning for me, Kelly, she wakes up and

has micro penis on her mind.

Suffice to say, if it talks like a harlet and posts like a harlet,

it's, well, you know the rest shalom.

At which point Donald Trump thinks, here's a beef I should get involved with.

Oh God.

And on truth social defending Levin is a truly great American patriot who is far

smarter than those who criticize him.

Ian: the resident of the United States has got nothing better

Andy: to do.

Helen: do.

No.

Just Weigh in on the great MicroPen controversy of 2026.

But this is what's happening is you've basically got load of,

yeah, like cable news hosts.

I mean, Pete Hegseth of Secretary of War is a former Fox News host.

This is basically a load of preening pre bad Donna, who have somehow accidentally

been in, put in charge of the world's only superpower and it's enormous arsenal.

And of course, they're all fighting with

each other.

So the base is

still very with Trump, but he has lost significant portions of the kind of MAGA

Ian: over

this.

Can I, can I ask what happened

Helen: to

the Army?

Are, Are,

Andy: are

Ian: are there any generals left?

Is there

anyone left in command

in America

Helen: who says,

Ian: I'm not sure about this,

Andy: yeah,

Helen: or, well, someone's, someone's

Andy: Someone's launching these

missiles,

Helen: are they?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, Pete Hegseth has been pretty explicit about clearing people out.

You know, he gave, went and summoned them all, if you remember,

of that lecture about how they weren't allowed to have beards.

Um, and, you know, he's

been very

clear that He wants a, you know, he wants a stereotypically masculine military, and

he wants one that is not going to gain say anything that they're ordered to do.

So you are right.

The big figures of Trump won, like, um, general Mark Kelly, like HR McMaster

gone.

He wasn't gonna make the mistake of appointing anybody like that again.

And the two things they used to do was, one, they used to tell him to his

face, were a bad idea, and two, I think they used to quietly hide his briefing

papers and hope he'd forget about it.

Also, it turned out a great tactic, but now he's got Marco Rubio, who he used

to attack all the time as little Marco and just, you know, once so said, you

know, if you locked him in a room, you know, he could slide under the door.

Right.

That, that, that's, he would just all his principles.

JD Vance, who's been stuffed in a cupboard, um, and knows that his only lane

for 2028 is as you know, continuity Trump.

So he can't break from him.

Susie Wiles is the chief of staff was picked because she was just

there to enable whatever he wants to

do.

Mm-hmm.

and who in the whole of the Republican party is, is a counterweight to him.

You know, like Mitt Romney's out of the Senate, you know, there are

a couple of senators like Thomas Tillis, who's on his way, out, who

will vote against his nominees, stand up to him, make criticisms, right.

Ian: Um, but,

none of

this matters.

The great vaunted American system of, of checks

Helen: and balances.

Ian: It, it doesn't seem to

Helen: work at

does

it?

No,

Congress, you know, at the moment, if you look online, you will see that

are two or three hour long queues at security at American airports.

And that's just because of essentially a partial government shutdown in funding.

They have this mad idea that you can, like fund agencies and, and

you keep voting, you know, Congress needs to reapprove funding.

And what's happened with that is that the Republicans have attached

a load of ICE funding, immigration enforcement funding to it, which the

Democrats don't wanna vote through.

So while they continue to have this stalemate, people have now

to get to the airport 15 hours early and stand in the car park.

Like there was this line, I think it was PJ R always used to have

about, you know, Republicans say.

Government doesn't work and then they set out to prove it.

And there is a lot of that in American politics, right?

It's just that we just, you know, don't really care that

much about government working,

is it?

Just that

Richard: it takes so long for these checks

Helen: balances for

Richard: the

Helen: courts to act,

and,

Richard: you

know, so there's just not effective.

'cause that

Helen: was always

Richard: the

the lime, wasn't

Helen: it?

Oh, don't worry too

Richard: much about Trump because

Helen: the checks and balances would kick.

in

a lot better this time though.

So without getting too conspiratorial.

No, I mean,

all agree to

disagree.

No, I mean, he's not Better Okay.

getting what he, he wants or the people who work for him.

So in, um, Steven Miller, who's effectively his minister, you know, he has

got a doctrinaire anti-immigration idea.

Ideolog, who is crucially quite well liked by his staff and

really good at bureaucracy, right?

He, he's not a, although his wife a podcaster, inevitably.

'cause that's the law, someone in his family's got a podcast

and it's gonna have to be you.

Um, so, you know, he's got these kind of dry bureaucrats essentially

in now.

And thanks to things Project

2025, which was the Heritage Foundation's blueprint for a second Trump government,

he's got a kind of tick list of stuff that he can do often using executive orders.

You saw the big barrage of them at start.

Lots of those, when they eventually up at the Supreme Court will get overturned.

But

it

takes

months and

the Supreme Court gets to pick its docket to some extent.

So it

can pick and choose what it wants to look at.

I mean,

the midterms are, coming up and that really might be

when it changes everything.

and also at that point, lots of Republicans start thinking

about their positioning 2028.

Do they want to be left holding this?

on?

Probably by that point, unpopular failed

war And that might encourage a few of them grow tiny whisper of a vertebrae.

Just

to

Ian: yeah.

Helen: I'm

interested you say that,

Ian: there's no one pointing these things out and.

until The

head of counter-terrorism says,

do you think Israel's leading this war?

I mean, last week on

Helen: our

Ian: page,

uh,

Helen: one of our readers,

Ian: know, and this is a

full

Helen: two weeks

Ian: ahead, said, I think we should call this the

Helen: Israel, US

Iran

Ian: And I thought, well, that's quite good.

That's from one of our readers is is there no one of

Helen: that level

Ian: competence

Helen: operating in

the

House?

I mean, as I say, most of the people I think are really competent are

on the domestic side of policy.

And you know, the thing is,

I mentioned this before in my that um, you've got Jared Kushner, for

example, one of the envoys

and, uh, Woff, they're also supposed to be doing

Ukraine.

You know, you've got a situation now in which the US is also blockading Cuba.

Right.

Cuba's had

power cuts intermittently, and they're all

kind of going, well.

we should, there was a report in Atlantic, my other organization saying

that they're casting round for a Republican donor with family links to

Cuba who might fancy going over and having a, having a crack at being in

Andy: of

q

Helen: to being

the governor.

I mean, there's lots, there's a big Republican Florida

community of of of expats who'd love to have a crack at being head of Cuba.

They give you your own cigar.

Absolutely.

Your

life expectancy is

Ian: six

to eight

Richard: months.

It sounds to be like reform

taking over councils

Helen: here, doesn't it?

So warmer.

A

lot

Ian: warmer.

Yeah.

So Trump's cut off

Helen: the

oil

Ian: Cuba

and opened it again.

So

Helen: Iran

can

Andy: sell.

Yes.

Helen: I want, can you

explain

this.

So yes, I,

Andy: this is exactly what I to ask.

So, so far

as far as I can tell, there are

Helen: three beneficiaries of the war.

One is a big American oil

exporters of visa.

Mm-hmm.

The price has gone up enormously.

Andy: Uh,

Helen: one is Russia.

Andy: Uh, they'll, they'll

Helen: get a lot more and they've just had their sanctions lifted.

And the third is

Iran.

The USA seems to have allied

with Iran to lift its sanctions to ensure that the

prices

Andy: don't go

Helen: completely outta control.

Richard: well this is

Helen: is what's going

on there?

Richard: You know, like we were talking about earlier, just not understanding the

consequences of reaction of your actions.

You know, this is gonna hit the oil price that's gonna

hit inflation.

Um, oh, we didn't really think about that.

You know, you go to war in the Middle East and don't think about the effect on the

Helen: oil

Richard: oil price

until,

until a bit later.

Um,

so yeah, I mean, it is must

Helen: be the most, perhaps the only example of,

Richard: one power funding its enemy during a war

Helen: It reminded me a bit of the Russian invasion

Andy: Ukraine, where

Europe is

Helen: still using a a, Yeah, a

Andy: of, I

Helen: mean, they've

Andy: to diversify

Helen: a lot

away

Andy: Russian

Helen: gas and

Andy: and

they've, I think they'll have completed the job next

Helen: year, but

Richard: Well, I think, I think they just haven't understood that, you know,

the markets are all interconnected.

Uh, it's not, you know, we don't get

Helen: our oil from,

Richard: you know, friendly countries and domestically and, and, and, you

know, Iran just sends it to China and

Helen: Yeah, whoever,

Richard: that it all goes on the same

market and therefore you get this terrible effect on prices and

not really understood that, and

Helen: not understood

Richard: the way that we

Helen: actually help.

Richard: break any kind of ring fence that you might wanna set

up by using places like Dubai

where, Iran and root oil pretty much to wherever it wants

through centers like that.

Helen: but he doesn't understand tariffs, so it's possible

he just

also willfully

Yeah.

international

markets.

Richard: Yeah.

And there's a

Helen: similar

sort of,

Richard: uh,

you know, this

Helen: negotiating tactic

Richard: with ta with tariffs where we're gonna, you know, if you don't come to the

Helen: table, we're putting a

Richard: massive tariff on you, and then

Helen: the time comes and you

Richard: sort of, like,

Helen: oh no, we'll give you another

Richard: of months.

You know,

Helen: this is the guy who's

supposedly, uh, you know, the great negotiator.

But what you've learned is that

Richard: you can't believe any, any threat he

Helen: he says

Richard: doesn't really stand up.

Helen: The

trouble

is

that, If he did go

Richard: with those threats, they're so

catastrophic

Helen: but it seems like a lot of these red lines have already

been crossed.

I mean, they were in the middle of a negotiation when the

Andy: war was launched.

Helen: So why would Iran come to the table to negotiate and

enter

the war,

Andy: given that,

Helen: yeah.

Trump has

shown that his word is not

to

Ian: be

relied

on.

I, don't, I don't think theirs

is

either.

To

be quite honest.

I'm not,

Helen: Like, I'm not

entirely sure that

Ian: be uh, assembled, uh, revolutionary guard would be that

Helen: worried about,

Ian: sticking

Helen: their negotiating positions either.

Ian: now I, I'm sure that isn't

Helen: what you meant, but I mean,

Ian: the problem seems to be that

Helen: we're in a phony

war

Ian: where

Helen: if we are a war

Ian: Iran,

why are

Helen: we

Ian: them

to sell

their

oil, freely and make

Helen: more money and

Ian: themselves?

Helen: Why are we encouraging our

Ian: allies And Richard's written about this to carry on selling Iranian oil.

Um, but just doing it slightly

Helen: under the radar.

Ian: none of this makes a great deal of sense if

Helen: we were genuinely at

Richard: No.

Right.

But, but we, we have, you

know, we have allowed them to become so

Helen: embedded

that's

Richard: issue, you know, yes, it

would be great if you could say around, you're not selling any oil.

Um, and, and they're, you know, and they

Helen: suffer the consequences.

Richard: But, you know, it, it's in the system.

We've, we've

Helen: created

that system,

Is it international capitalism?

Richard?

Yeah, it was

Richard: scourge of,

Andy: Just

Helen: checking.

Okay.

I mean,

this is, if anything, a resounding sort of cheer international capitalism because

that's appears me the only thing that has any restraining value on Donald Trump.

Right.

He obviously made the announcement that he did because he's very

about inflation and the economy,

and particularly American gas prices, which are like

kind of

holy

Andy: value.

Helen: I

know they've gone from American petro prices have gone from insanely

Andy: cheap to criminally

cheap, and the

American

Helen: people will not

put

up

with

those Extraordinary

prices.

They

Andy: have to,

Helen: honestly, as a Brit looking at those prices, you

think, come on.

I know I quite regularly fill up like a big SUV Sorry, close your

is, you don't wanna hear sorry.

When I'm across America and I go and I'm like, and I, and I

consistently, because

my, you've charged

me for the chocolate

bar.

here, right?

because my car doesn't work.

Like you have have the special mag, stripe card, whatever in America.

I often have to go in and prepay for the pump.

And I always, I go, well, that's a, I'm essentially driving a tank.

It's probably gonna cost what, like $50 to fill that up.

And then

every time I've massively overestimated.

Andy: Mm-hmm.

Helen: Did

you, um, talk about Saturday Live, did you see that Donald Trump reposted

the Saturday Night Live sketch, taking the piss out of ki Yeah.

For, For

Andy: afraid of

him.

The un

Helen: Kind of cut

of off.

I know.

But I, but that also kind of reflects that other thing that we've been talking

about, about the Trump's belief that his allies are really stepped up for him.

And he was sort of like, why haven't you not guys not open the strait of s s You

Ian: won't

eat

a

bunch of

ingrates.

Helen: but petrol prices will go

Andy: as you say,

Helen: and Americans do drive twice as far with

Andy: less efficient cars.

Helen: So it will, it will

Andy: people

Helen: that won't it?

Or certain people will feel it in their pockets.

Oh, I mean, it's, it's just an unfathomably vast country.

So even just like the logistics of getting food and things around

the country have a huge knock on effect, even if people weren't

driving pickup

trucks where the wheels

are like that high.

Right,

Andy: right,

right.

You, but

yeah.

Helen: But America is more insulated than lots of

Andy: other places.

Is

Helen: is another

element

of

this whole

thing,

is this

because of the shale gas?

Andy: They're

fracking?

Helen: Yeah.

Well, since the,

Andy: the 1973

Helen: oil crisis, the oil Shock America was a

Andy: big net importer at

Helen: the time, and now they're a big net

Andy: exporter.

I

Helen: that will affect their

their

Andy: to it.

Helen: All the Asian

Andy: are having a driver

Helen: time.

they've already gone to four day weeks in various places because

they're trying to preserve the

Andy: they've got, um,

Helen: they've set limits on what you can set the air conditioning

to because the, the electricity

Andy: gas based.

So there are plenty of

Helen: countries that are in a mad

scramble at

the

moment

Andy: try

and

Helen: deal with

Andy: and

Helen: not knowing when full

supplies

Richard: will be resumed.

But,

Helen: And

there is

a feeling that,

Ian: And old Sparky was writing it for us, is that, um, it's a big crisis,

but it's particularly a crisis if you

are

a

poor country.

because the remaining

Helen: stocks

Ian: be, you'll be outbid.

Sorry.

Helen: Yeah.

other

Ian: countries will buy the liquified gas.

They'll buy whatever there is, and if you are Bangladesh it's gonna be a

bit grim.

Yeah.

Helen: we have a war in

Ian: the richest western

country America is

saying, well, we can keep this war going.

You're thinking, Yeah.

Richard: what

Helen: what about

the

rest

of

the

world?

Yeah.

So

we spoke last time on the show about what

Andy: in Pakistan after

Helen: Russia invaded Ukraine, uh, in relation to their energy system.

Pakistan

Andy: then

Helen: had a bit of a Soler revolution where they've

Andy: I mean, huge numbers

Helen: like gigawatts and gigawatts of Soler

that has changed Pakistan's

Andy: to, to

Helen: a greater extent than Bangladesh

Andy: where Bangladesh is still very reliant.

Helen: we have can I float a new conspiracy though?

Yeah.

Which is that Trump is actually being

Andy: controlled by

Greta Thunberg

Helen: because this

war

just a giant advert for

like de

fossilizing

your

economy.

I

like, I like

that

theory.

He's actually

all this

time he's

been

a

mole,

He's been run

incredibly

deep

cover.

deep.

you know, just putting

Richard: the, uh, you know, reforming alternative, uh, perhaps

Helen: it's an A

Richard: for having, you know,

Helen: emergency supplies of your own,

Andy: maybe

we should drill

Helen: the North Sea.

I'm just gonna float the idea.

it, first, but it is about

Richard: about energy

Helen: security.

I mean, it does show, you

know,

Andy: importance of security.

Helen: Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy: Um,

Helen: but it's,

it's

funny

'cause

Andy: time these.

Helen: Crises

happen and they

do keep

Andy: happening.

Helen: The alternatives are looking better economically.

Andy: You know, things like

battery storage, which is probably

Helen: down by

about half since 2022.

Andy: I mean,

Helen: the cost of the alternatives

Andy: on changing.

Helen: China is the fourth beneficiary of this war, really,

Andy: because I think

Helen: a lot of countries will be

Andy: looking at their

Helen: plans for big expansions of natural gas

and thinking,

Andy: Hmm, maybe

we

Helen: could just do

a bit

of

Andy: and storage

Helen: quite sunny here.

Andy: is

quite cheap now,

Helen: But

we'll

drill the

North Sea

and

Andy: be

all

right.

Uh,

Richard: Yeah,

Helen: That, that's the default opposition

position at

Ian: moment,

isn't

it?

Helen: Yeah.

Why

don't

we

just

Andy: the Northeast and

Helen: yeah.

it's kept

happening

since

we, thought we this since podcast when you

Andy: how that

wouldn't

work.

Put this

to bed

Helen: two

weeks ago.

Yeah.

Um, now you,

Andy: you

keep

putting

it

to

bed

Helen: and it keeps on getting up again.

Yeah, yeah.

Ian: It's almost as though, can we Batter

not,

Helen: wasn't listening to you.

Andy,

I

Andy: believe that.

Helen: I've spoken

Ian: this

morning

to

more people

involved

Helen: in

the

I

thought you gonna say Kemi B?

no,

she's

not picking up.

it is

Andy: an interesting

Helen: one 'cause

Andy: of people are putting

Helen: the case that we need everything all at once.

You know, we need to do everything to ensure stability and security.

but a lot

Andy: of the sides

Helen: of the debate will say, well, we need to do everything except the thing

Andy: chosen we shouldn't do.

So if

Helen: you Kimmy Bock or, or Richard Tyson Nigel Forgi say,

well,

we need

to do everything,

Andy: but let's not do the renewables.

Which

Helen: is basically an argument for doing

Andy: the North Sea.

You know, and again,

Helen: there's a case for

doing it.

If you

Andy: to maybe nationalize

Helen: the industry, that

would be,

that

would

be an option.

What about a lovely

Andy: nuclear power?

Helen: plant?

Yeah.

10

years from now.

Terrific.

Yeah,

absolutely.

would be.

Andy: When 10,

Helen: sorry.

Andy: 20.

How

long?

Any The advance

Richard: that

Helen: Yeah.

Yeah,

Andy: yeah.

Helen: it's so

' Andy: cause governments keep on having

Helen: these shocks and, that, you know, we had the shock in 2022.

Richie soak,

Andy: Saks,

one of his next moves was to say,

Helen: well, let's roll back the, the

electric car mandate.

Let's go

Andy: Let's,

let's

Helen: keep our reliance on this stuff

for longer.

the government's

Andy: package has been pretty decent.

Helen: What they've said is very short term.

If

you're

Andy: with

heating

oil,

Helen: but lots of

Andy: use heating oil, still, we're gonna

Helen: support you, but in a

Andy: way

because

Helen: they're not yet

Andy: countenance in the idea of supporting everyone's bills

again.

Helen: Um,

I'm

not

sure

we

can

Ian: that,

can

we?

Helen: It

doesn't seem like

it

Borrowing is quite, quite

difficult,

at

the moment,

Richard: it, Richard?

the trouble is that yeah, it's very difficult

to get back

Helen: to normal

in the meantime.

Richard: Um,

you know,

and often sort of counterproductive.

cause you're saying, well, we really gotta reign in now.

We've gotta cut that debt to get

Helen: that

interest

down

and

Richard: on.

then

Helen: you

end up not putting money into

various

Richard: like, you know, and now we're talking about

Helen: not enough burning to defend,

Richard: example.

Um, yeah.

You

Helen: know, you don't

Richard: address the problems.

you know, like COVID, we weren't prepared in

the health service.

Helen: This

Richard: has come along.

Helen: You

Richard: we've got a couple of

dinghies we can send

Helen: over.

You know, we're

not

prepared

Ian: this

one,

Yeah.

Um, well,

Helen: let's

say the next

crisis

is in the arts.

Ian: Sure.

Andy: It's a, unfortunately the

Helen: arts we're always in crisis.

There's

Andy: solution there.

Um,

Helen: can I say one more quick thing

Andy: energy?

Just that

Helen: no matter who you talk to, all over,

Andy: everyone's

solution is the

Helen: same, which is lower

Andy: price of

electricity

Helen: for people who

Andy: want bills

to be lower,

Helen: uh, like the

Andy: or the conservative.

Helen: Removing levies

Andy: electricity bills

Helen: and maybe putting them into general taxation, maybe it's scraping,

Andy: whatever.

They have different proposals,

Helen: but that cheapens

Andy: bills for people who actually want the transition to

Helen: happen.

When I

Andy: myself in

that camp,

that

Helen: making the electricity price lower encourages people

to adopt these solutions,

Andy: know, it's, and

Helen: we've already largely made the, the

Andy: grid green, but

Helen: there's so

Andy: elsewhere.

Helen: Mostly the cars we drive and how

Andy: heat our homes, that is remaining to

Helen: be greened.

It

is, it

is

security.

I knew I, We start off with the wrong one.

I knew we'd up

at

cross

pavement

charging

Andy: system.

Helen: No, no, no, Heat.

Heat

pumps and electric cars

are the electric.

They are

stability.

They are,

they're basically

Did I follow security?

You were saying

Ian: that essentially the populous view of get, get the

Helen: bills down 'cause we

want to

Ian: less is actually a positive green,

Helen: incitement.

I think getting the bills down means more people will

Andy: encouraged to adopt these solutions.

Helen: Yep.

I think reform of the conservatives have said various things like, we're gonna

scrap net zero targets, we're going to

Andy: scrap heat pump incentives.

I

it would not be

Helen: good for the climate in

Andy: long run

or emissions,

Helen: but getting the electricity price down seems

Andy: be

the thing everyone can agree on.

Because you make these solutions even

Helen: more economically

compelling,

more people

will

adopt

it, You know, car, if you can fill up an electric car for seven

quid and your, your diesel's just

Andy: up to a hundred quid.

It

Helen: becomes, it becomes

more

So yeah,

Andy: that

seems

to be

Helen: the thing we should

bear

in

mind

for next

Andy: this

happens, which

Helen: will be

in

about

two

years, apparently.

Yeah.

so now we come to

Andy: the exciting world

of finance.

Richard, you

Helen: write the in the money column.

And there

Andy: been a few

Helen: stories recently, both in your column

Andy: across, across,

Helen: the rest of the press about, um,

a little

Andy: party

Helen: called reform

Andy: and the

Helen: very innovative

things that they're

Andy: with money, Things like them receiving

Helen: donations in

the form of

crypto.

it seems to be,

it

seems to be a

Richard: vibrant area.

Helen: And

um, they're at the

Andy: at the cutting edge of this.

Yeah, definitely.

Richard: Um,

can

you

tell us

Helen: what what

Andy: gives

Richard: Yeah.

Well,

Helen: they've

said

they, well, who

Richard: gives?

Yes.

Well, that's the point.

We can't,

Helen: right.

Um, or

Richard: not sure.

Helen: they've said that, um, they've started taking

Richard: crypto donations,

Helen: but none are actually recorded

Richard: yet.

If they are, they're getting washed through the

Helen: crypto system and

turned into real money.

and

Richard: process, doesn't

Helen: give you

Richard: great confidence

Helen: in where the money originally

Richard: from

Helen: now there's no,

Richard: we haven't got a case

Helen: where we can say, ah,

Richard: money you said came from

Helen: This direct actually

Richard: came from Mrs. Y, but that's what it potentially allows you

Helen: to do.

And that's why there

Richard: people arguing for banning crypto

Helen: donations

Richard: or donations

Helen: that

originate

with

crypto.

government shows no

Richard: of doing that.

It's,

Helen: it's quite procr as well.

God, I thought we weren't so procr.

I mean, obviously

the,

the Trump

family

is massively

procr.

Um, they, you

know, had this big stake in World Liberty

They sold the Qatar just before Inauguration Day.

Donald Trump Junior Is every shady crypto conference in the Middle Well, actually

that's probably really neck of their

business model shady looking crypto conferences in the Middle East, but

I, I, I I sort of thought we were

maintaining what I'd like to think of as a kind slightly more useful reserve.

But that not true?

Britain is,

Richard: is

Gungho crypto as well?

Well, we,

Helen: we are saying that we want to regulate

it properly

mm-hmm.

in

order

Richard: have a, you

know, a

Helen: you know,

Richard: healthy, responsible crypto industry.

Helen: the question is

Richard: you know, there really is such a thing,

Helen: you

know, if you look

at who uses this

Richard: stuff

Helen: for real

Richard: as opposed to just

Helen: kind of

Richard: it and hoping it goes up in value.

pornography, uh, you know, drugs, anything,

Helen: uh,

Richard: laundering.

it's,

Helen: hard to find.

And you know, you even find, it, we wrote a

Richard: uh, a couple of issues ago about the guy who runs the

Helen: payment

Richard: company that Reform are using,

Helen: and he was at

Richard: conference saying,

Helen: oh, you know, we, you know, we've

Richard: pornography covered, we've got, um, you know, we've got the drugs covered.

Um,

Helen: we, we are looking

Richard: some decent purposes to, for people to use our product.

You know, they just haven't really got it.

Helen: is if you, if you

Richard: do something legitimate with

Helen: money,

why

don't

Andy: you

Helen: just

use

ordinary

money, Right?

You

use a bank

as as you like to call them, and you get

that, you get

deposit insurance, right?

As a consumer,

you get up to something like

85,000

pounds.

you have in a bank

account,

The, the, like the

government will back if the bank goes

Richard: under,

Yeah.

If you

lose

the

keys

to

your,

like

Helen: your crypto wallet

or someone steals it.

no one is coming to you.

Like, I just,

I'm

Richard: extreme caution is how I,

Helen: word crypto.

No, I mean, there was

Richard: famous case,

Helen: guy

who's

Richard: laptop

Helen: his laptop in the,

Richard: out and he, he, You know, the Bitcoin or whatever had gone up in

Helen: value so much.

Richard: tried to buy the whole,

Helen: Yeah, it was a council waste disposal dump.

Yeah.

Dump from the council, said, I'll give you millions

Richard: this so

Helen: but Nitro forage can't

use

banks, can't

he?

Andy: Well, I,

Helen: I, Yeah,

he

got he, he was de he by Coutts.

But I, I think that was an interesting one that, that, I'm not saying

he, he it, but it came at a very useful time for him to use it as a,

and is

why Oh,

right.

You know, because he was also very into

gold.

Right.

Like he gold through his newsletter.

So the part of the Yeah.

Right.

The part of the political that he's appealing to is very

low trust

in institutions.

Yeah.

And then, so the message to sell crypto has always been don't trust the banks.

You know, have your

crypto keep, them like it's, it's money

Andy: can't be

regulated, can't be overseen.

Helen: I have to say

turning, I was

Andy: de banked by

Helen: Kouts into, pitch to people to

not

trust

Andy: is quite.

Fuck.

It's

Helen: quite good politics,

I've gotta

say.

It's

quite

cleverly

done.

Richard: and he's certainly

Helen: going

going strong on both gold

Richard: and crypto.

he's got

Helen: this big, gig with the

gold company,

Richard: direct bullion company

Helen: who are paying him, you know, hundreds of thousands

of

pounds.

Richard: not that he's necessarily

Helen: used that money, but he's put a very similar amount

Richard: money

Helen: into,

Richard: A crypto company whose largest

Helen: shareholder is the guy

Richard: paid him all that money for the, for endorsing

Helen: gold.

Andy: This is this separate to

Richard: quasi

Quaye?

Well, the,

Helen: no

it's not.

This

Andy: is the quasi

Helen: Quaye

Ian: Bitcoin Company, which is

Discre.

Is

Helen: Is it called that?

Because I

Richard: would

suggest

that's not

Helen: a

very

good

name

To market.

Why

Is it not

called

Richard: Paul?

It's, it's,

Helen: crazy.

it's allied with the, with the trust, uh, investment management, uh, company.

Richard: Uh, no.

It's CROs

Helen: car.

and

Richard: chap

Helen: Paul with us, have joined up to create this company

Richard: called Stack Bitcoin, which is a

Helen: bitcoin

Richard: company,

Helen: which means

Ian: they'll

look

after

your

Helen: Bitcoin.

but

Richard: nothing

to do

with

the

treasury.

Ian: No,

Richard: don't, just checking.

Andy: No, aren't

Helen: know the debt quite arrived by, Aren't there rules

about what you, there are rules

Andy: you can't just say, this is the King's

Helen: crypto company

Richard: whatever.

You're allowed

to

Helen: stick

treasury

Richard: it.

You can

Andy: use

the

Richard: treasury.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Helen: I

mean,

Richard: up questionable whether

Helen: Party Quaye

should

ever

use

the word

treasury

again,

Richard: but, um, I

Helen: I

think

that's

a

Richard: a good

question.

Helen: so Ferra gets the money

Richard: from the gold company.

Helen: He puts it into,

Richard: the crypto company that

Helen: the gold guy involved

Richard: and this crypto

Helen: company shares leaps up, So it was all,

you

know,

very convenient.

Andy: That's what I'm really interested in,

because exactly as you say, when he announced,

I

Helen: think

it

was

215,000 pounds he'd invested in

this

Andy: stack

company.

Helen: the value then leaps.

Andy: he's

got various options, which

Helen: mean that if the value of this company goes above a certain

Andy: he will make a huge amount of money.

Helen: But obviously he's using his status as a

Andy: figure to

Helen: drive up the value of the coin.

I

mean

Andy: very,

this

Helen: is

Ian: thing about crypto.

Helen: You're looking

Ian: an

adjective.

And

Helen: and Richard

has

Ian: said convenient.

Helen: Sorry.

So if

you don't

want

the

lawyers

Andy: have to

Ian: spend

the

next

Helen: 35

minutes

convenience, Can we just

say

convenient?

Yeah.

Andy: As in

Helen: As in public convenience.

that's the kind of point of crypto

though, right?

Is in respects, it's trading on

reputation

and trading speculation.

Nobody buys crypto really as a safe haven.

buy it

because they

think they're going to

the moon.

And

Andy: like

the, thing that

Helen: the thing that annoys people, I wish I wish they would.

Well, no, but The thing that annoys people

like me, I I made a podcast about this once, was the fact that it

has delivered a huge amount of returns for pe like, for everybody

who was

the early investors.

Uh, I mean, and there's a weird analogy, analogy to some of the other stuff,

like

when they took the post office public and they

sold off the early things and

then immediate it spiked up.

So everybody who got in the early

Richard: Yeah.

made

absolute bank.

Helen: Well, it's like any

Richard: bubble, yes.

A lot of people make

money on it,

Helen: and a lot of people

Richard: money knowing

Helen: that it's a bubble, knowing that there's

no

Richard: to it.

Yeah.

But

Helen: they

just

Richard: hope they get out

Helen: before they think

the

other people, the

Richard: else realizes that, you know?

Helen: So, and this

Richard: could go on ages,

where

Helen: the public figure's politician, you'd think, well, that's a bit

Richard: really using

Helen: your,

Richard: uh, you know, political profile to boost a company.

But, you

know, in this,

case, they're, they're boasting of that.

Mm. Yeah.

Quasi Quaye saying, oh, it's

Helen: saying, oh, it's wonderful to have a

frontline politician,

Richard: as he described Farage combining this, this sort of

Helen: financial

bubble with political

Richard: and saying, yeah, come on, let's froth it all up.

Helen: It's, it's a bit like

Richard: Trump really on a

Helen: slightly

smaller

scale.

Andy: but not in the billions yet.

But

Helen: Farage has said he wants the Bank of England to

have a Bitcoin reserve, and he

wants

Andy: slash

the

tax on Bitcoin

Helen: transactions or cryptocurrency deals

Andy: by

more

Helen: than half.

is there an intellectual

Richard: underpinning

to

Ian: this or

is

there, yeah,

I thought you were about

to suggest, is the fact that he's advocating a policy that

will benefit both him and all

Helen: his friends,

Ian: is

that in

some

way convenient?

And

I

Helen: think

the

answer

is yes.

I

think

Richard: is

very

convenient.

and the

Helen: You have to ring underpinning is that people

Richard: Christopher Harboe like

it his

Helen: biggest

donor

Andy: and therefore

he

Richard: gives

him

millions.

This is

Helen: is

the Thailand

based,

this is Thailand based, Yeah.

Richard: who's given

Helen: reform party

Richard: than

20

Helen: million pounds.

coincidentally,

Richard: um, Farage, you know, favors tax breaks and so on for

crypto

Ian: It is an enormous

amount

as

a donor, isn't

it?

Helen: I

know you

frequently

catalog who gives

Ian: money?

Helen: Nick Kante.

he's

the treasurer, isn't

he?

he?

is.

Richard: famous former

Helen: tax

Exxon, making a lot of

Richard: while he was, uh, offshore

Helen: through cashing in on one Hyde Park

Richard: and so on.

we

Helen: report a couple of

others in the

Richard: issue.

Um.

Using companies in the UK that

Helen: are owned by

Richard: British Virgin Island companies.

So again, we're not quite sure where The

money's coming

from.

The

Helen: companies in the UK are losing money, so it can't

Richard: be coming

Helen: entirely from them.

Richard: Um,

Helen: Yeah, and,

and there's various

Richard: other offshore donors.

There's another chap called Besim

Haar,

Helen: and Nigerian Lebanese

Richard: businessman who's very vocal in, uh,

wanting

Helen: non dom tax breaks to come back in.

Richard: and he has become

Helen: one

of Nigel's

Richard: close friends accompanying him to

Mar-a-Lago and so on.

Andy: I

Helen: I just think the reform, that's

Andy: so public spirited of these

Helen: businessmen who don't live here.

They don't,

Andy: know, they, they, they could just not get involved if they,

they wanted to have an easy life.

I

Helen: think

Ian: amazing that they're

doing

this

for

our

politics.

And,

Helen: I it all just makes, I just, it makes me feel so moist.

I'm sorry.

It really does.

I just really, really, seriously object to it and having it yoked to this

party

so Matt Goodwin, a candidate of reform, you

know, he's been in a bit of a hot water over book and people check

questioning the sourcing of that, and he's gone instantly to you.

snooty libs are trying to take me down.

Right, right.

And to have

a group of people who's,

who are a kind of affront to some

extent for offshore money, and there's a of tax reforms that would

extremely wealthy people saying that the only people who oppose

me must be this

of metropolitan elite

just gets on my nerve,

Ian: Such chronic.

Really

He does.

Helen: I, I found the fact that.

Ian: Richard Tyson

Helen: avoids

Ian: a lot of

tax.

Quite

convenient.

Helen: How, how how does

he do that,

Richard?

Richard: Well, he did, he's,

he's

Ian: been

stopped

from doing it

now,

but

he

Richard: did.

Helen: Uh,

he can't do anything

nowadays.

Andy: Exactly.

Was it

Helen: six, let's

just say

it

was

600,000

Richard: he managed

to

avoid in

tax.

Helen: wasn't that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

He's, he's a property

Richard: man

Helen: and

he decides to do a

Richard: more tax efficiently.

Helen: labor government

Richard: 2007 had

introduced a new.

type of property

Helen: investment company

Richard: called a real estate investment

trust.

Helen: And The

idea

behind it

Richard: that, lots of

Helen: different types of investors

Richard: come

Helen: together, pull their money

Richard: and invest in property, and we wanted to encourage that.

the,

Helen: the vehicle, they pulled their money in

Richard: be taxable.

Helen: so

it

was

intended

for like

big pool

Richard: investments,

Helen: like, you

Richard: like, like fund managers look after and so

on.

not for small family property companies based in Mayfair.

Um, but

Helen: Richard

Tys found a

way looking at

the

rules

of saying we are a, re you

know, so can we have a

Richard: tax

break?

Helen: happy days.

Richard: Um, and,

Helen: and,

and the revenue

Richard: did allow them that status for a

Helen: while.

Okay.

Richard: I think because they must

Helen: have, or they claim they

Richard: looking for other investors,

which

funnily

enough didn't

Helen: come off

Ian: Right.

Uh,

and then that

Helen: was

it.

So

the revenue has now stopped this?

Yes.

They've

Richard: lost that status,

Ian: it's 600,000 pounds is quite a

lot of

money.

Helen: Yes.

And

you pointed

Ian: in

the

last issue that, it's

quite

Helen: a lot

Richard: than

Ian: many

of

Helen: the

Ian: shirkers yeah.

Richard: That Mr.

Thais,

his party

have

been,

um,

pointing

at.

but that's the

Helen: towards that's the

Richard: I

mean the,

the, you know, this crowd

Helen: spec, if they specialize in anything, it's gaming

Richard: system.

yet the things they're

probably most exercised

about

among

other people

Helen: He is

Richard: with less money

Helen: system, less money's gaming

Richard: the

system.

You

Helen: know, they, they hate the idea of people

Ian: on benefits

and

Richard: on.

Or

making a

couple a

hundred

Helen: qui more than they should, yeah,

Benefits are okay if

sort

of six figures,

I, I think I find it quite worrying.

'cause I think, say what I've got, as you'll have heard on this podcast,

quite a few criticisms of, Stan.

I think he would front a

crypto company.

I don't think Theresa May would've done, I don't think Jeremy Corbin

done, I don't think Gordon Brown certainly would've done Tony

Blair.

Let's put a question mark mark for that one.

Maybe I would've waited until he left office.

Yeah, right.

And, and I'd say the populous drift of that I think really bothers me that

the erosion of the idea of conflicts of interest and the that you are in public

life, because as you say, the whole value that crypto company is about,

as, um, it was said he's frontline politician.

It's, it's

it's

a version

of what

Mandelson

selling

as you

know, is it's context.

Yeah.

That doesn't

work unless you are

in

politics.

So it to me,

a conflict, an

Richard: conflict

of

interest.

And as you

say,

very,

very

convenient,

Helen: Well, uh, I'm gonna find the OED first

Andy: after this recording's over and ask

Helen: them to add a new definition for the

Andy: convenient.

Um, thank

Helen: you so much for

watching.

Andy: This

Helen: podcast or listening to it.

If you would

Andy: to find out many

Helen: more of the brilliant

Andy: we've been running from Richard's,

Helen: in the money column to Old Sparky's Reflections on the world of

Andy: and gas and the, the

Helen: the energy system and so much more.

Besides you can get a copy

Andy: of Private I

Helen: by going into

Andy: shop

Helen: and buying

one, or by

going to private for

Andy: uk,

Helen: uh, and subscribing,

Andy: which is very reasonably priced.

I mean,

Helen: Richard Ty could buy

Andy: several thousand subscriptions to the magazine with

Helen: the money he's saved.

to Richard, if you're

watching,

Richard: we know You

Do,

Yeah.

Helen: uh,

why

not do

that

until they go

Andy: up

in value

as well

as

down your

Helen: your old private eyes will never

Andy: down

in value and we guarantee

that.

Helen: Uh, thanks to Helen, Ian, and Richard, and as always,

to

Matt Hill

of

Rethink Audio for producing.

Bye for now.

Richard: for now.