Maisie: Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.
Helen: hello
and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Ice studio with Helen
Lewis, Ian Hislop and Richard Brooks.
So we have just had, uh, an American import to the UK in the
form of Saturday Night Live uk.
It's a big American show that's come here after kind of 50 years,
but we have just announced a really successful new export to America,
which is the idea of having a mad king.
Uh, America's taken that on and they've been running with it.
And Helen, I believe you've been following how, just how well it's been
going.
Yeah, I mean, so much, so much winning.
So obviously Donald Trump, uh, I mean, I'm hesitant to say anything
about the Iran War because it's, it's existing in this sort of quantum super
position of whatever Donald Trump says is currently happening with it.
He currently says.
It's, he's negotiating with Iranians.
Iranians say, we dunno what talking about.
He did announce that just after the markets had opened after a
pretty grizzly couple of days.
So who knows where we'll be by the time this goes out.
But essentially what we now know after four weeks of war is that
they didn't have any contingency planning about what would happen if
the straight of formers got closed.
Mm-hmm.
They assumed per report in the New York Times that based on Israeli intelligence
it looks like that Iranian protestors would rise up and overthrow the
regime, which is so far not happened.
Yeah.
and that they wouldn't at any point have to put kind of boot.
on the ground.
Boots
are now kind of sailing over boots
are hovering over the ground.
I would say at the moment.
So you know that, and that is an incredibly symbolic thing for America
to do, but the main thing about it is the fact that it has really
revealed is no one in this White House who can say no to Donald Trump.
And why is that?
Because they were all hand selected to be people who
wouldn't say no to Donald Trump.
Such a que question on application.
That's reason.
reasonable answer.
Well, but in one way.
Look at it.
One, one of the qualifications to work in that White House is you have
to believe that Donald Trump was grievously robbed of the election.
Right.
You have to be a kind of reality denier in favor of the cult
of, you know, um, presidente.
So by saying that you have to say, you know, you've accepted
this one thing, your loyalty to Trump matters more than the facts.
You can kind of see everything else flows from that.
But
Ian: fact is quite important in the
run up to a war.
I mean, the failures of intelligence
you've
described could
be applied to Iraq or
Helen: some of
Ian: the other, um, adventures or
picnics or whatever.
What is the definition for the war at the
moment?
Um,
Helen: I
believe it's a Shara Bank
tour.
Ian: a Shara bank to, but again, none of this was, um, unforeseeable.
Why did no one mention any
of it?
Helen: Did he even know about things like, you know, oil going
through the straightforward boots
Richard: you know, did he think about that?
He's making these decisions, isn't he, without talking about anybody?
Does it occur to him that, hang on, there's gonna be
Helen: a
Yeah, we don't, A consequence like that.
We don't, I they do seem to have been completely caught on the hop by that.
I think the way that their intelligence was was essentially, we'll go in,
you know, take out the io toler and the whole thing will
collapse like a house of cards.
we'll be home and sort of teeing medals.
And that is obviously not what has happened.
The regime has basically said, well, hang on a minute, what, like,
what's the point of negotiating?
Right.
that's the fascinating thing, is that Donald Trump has been hopping
from foot to foot for days now, obviously desperate to negotiate an
end to the war that he can claim as a another great Donald Trump victory.
And the Iranians are the ones who really don't
see what's in
that for them.
What we have at the moment, as as you said, um, Donald Trump has
just declared that he spoke to Iran and he now graciously won't bomb
energy infrastructure for five days.
Whereas previously it was a 48 hour deadline and the Iranians have said, well,
we haven't, we haven't had that chat.
Uh, so we dunno who you were talking to.
Uh, I mean, things are probably quite chaotic at the top of the
regime at the moment, obviously.
well, everyone's got Donald Trump's phone number, so it's quite possible
that someone with been what an Iranian accent has phoned him up
claiming to be the Iranian foreign And they had a very good chat.
But the
last time Donald Trump said things were going well in negotiations,
I, I had a little check.
It was the 6th of February, if you can remember all the way back then.
He
said the talks they were having had been very good and it looks like
they want to make a deal very badly.
but it was about three weeks before he
unleashed Armageddon.
So maybe his word on the how the talk's going is not, not gospel.
I have this vision of,
Ian: of Donald Trump inventing.
A talk at one end and the other end there's a, an Ayatollah
who may or may not be alive.
We don't know.
Yeah.
There's a series of men who you see grainy footage of in bunkers who may or may not
be talking to each other or to anyone else who's actually in charge of a missile.
I'm, I'm not quite sure how these
Helen: talks are happening.
they're clearly not.
That's the problem.
just, there's been so much chat wasted on
Andy: Trump's
Helen: reasons for doing things as though there are reasons,
but you're right.
I mean, it's a crisis
for international depro diplomacy if you end up with a leader that nobody
believes a word that they say and they go back on themselves all the time.
Yeah.
That's the thing.
If, even if America was sending out very strong signals of being
utterly bonkers, consistently.
That would be something that people could work with.
But the problem is that everybody, and you know, I do feel a great deal
of sympathy for Ki Stama and Rachel Reeves in this because all of their
fiscal plans for the entire year Yeah.
Are resting on what Mad King Donald Rampaging down the haha in his white night
shirt flapping behind him, decides to do
Richard: next.
Although it
does give them a bit of a
Helen: a let out, doesn't it?
Richard: Because, you know, global turmoil is a bit like COVID and
Helen: so on.
Richard: Um,
if I were Rachel Reeves,
I'd be thinking few,
you know, at least I'm not gonna be held to those plans.
You know,
Helen: the thing you said about, The purity test of, of saying
that, you know, Donald Trump won the 2020 election and that's,
Andy: the sort of threshing machine
Helen: you have to pass your brain through in order to be
accepted into Donald Trump's inner
circle.
Andy: It's weirdly reminiscent of
Helen: what happened to the conservative party after Brexit, where you had
the Boris Johnson cabinet, which was only loyalists, you know, all of the,
anyone who disagreed was cleared out.
You know, they, they kind of left of the Tory party and the centrist and
the people who thought Brexit looks like a might be not a brilliant idea.
They
were all cleared out,
I think even before then
When, but what, so for a long time, if you wanted to get selected as a tour p
during the 2010s or the late two thousands, the question that came up
in selection meetings was well, you think about leaving the European Union.
And, you know, it was a very popular thing to say, so you had a lot of
people who had never looked into it.
Or didn't think it was a great idea, but also thought it was never gonna
happen, just going, going along with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's, that is exactly the problem we're seeing repeated is that
people who just think, well, it doesn't matter if I just make this one compromise.
Right.
Actually know sometimes that bill does come to you.
Ian: And
how does it happen that the head of counter-terrorism, who from
what I dread I assumed, was pretty much full on Trump loon, um, has
declared that trump's a loon.
Helen: Um,
Ian: uh, what on
Helen: earth are we
Ian: here?
What, why is this man suddenly, um, the
Helen: new bellwether?
Well, a new type of loon is rising in the east.
No, hang minute in the west.
Um, actually, is, he is Joe Ket.
We're talking about resigned and he made a fair point in the resignation
letter, which was a bit about this kind of idea that the US has embarked
on a joint war here with Israel.
And actually that maybe this might be suiting the Israelis rather
than more than the Americans.
But he then brought in this other stuff how his wife was
killed in Syria by, by bombing.
About how that was another Israel led, uh, foreign war.
And that shades into lots of things he said in the past that shade into the idea
that actually maybe the Jewish state and then maybe by extension Jews are maybe
controlling America's foreign policy.
In the kind of way that if you saw somebody saying it online, your eyes
would, would go up and go, is this going to just stay as a strictly
clear critique of foreign policy
Ian: or
is this is it gonna end
Helen: is it gonna
end up where
I
think it
is
in a little bit puppet master hands in the cartoon.
Right.
Um, and I think that's, that is.
an emerging strain of maga.
So there are people who are both anti-Israel for very principled reasons
in the sense that they think it is a foreign war adventurism and that America's
foreign policy should be dictated by America's interest first, and that those
don't lie in wars in the Middle East.
But there are also some flat out white supremacists who have glommed on to Maga,
who are anti-Jewish Holocaust deniers.
Um, people like Nick Fuentes, who I've mentioned before.
Yeah.
But this has caused, this, going into a war with Israel has caused
a split in the, what you might call the kind of MAGA elite.
So I looked at the polling and actually voters who self identify
as maga, 90% of them backed strikes on Iran at the start of the war.
That may have softened up since then.
Only 70%.
Only 77% of those who define as Republican back it.
Right.
So being MAGA is being, you know, Donald Trump, right or wrong to some extent.
But within the elite people like Tucker Carlson, Meghan
Kelly, have.
Started to, and the kind of podcast comedian class.
So Theo Vaughn, Joe Rogan,
you can't
Andy: you
can't lose the
Helen: podcast
comedians, they're,
Andy: they're a
Helen: core
demographic,
right?
But they, they're a core demographic, right?
Because they all swung behind Trump in 2024.
Right?
But they have been, to their credit, Joe Rogan is, is not a big fan
of foreign wars in the way that Donald Trump wants wasn't right.
And so they being a little bit more of a distance removed, um, have
been, uh, have been quite critical.
I'm just gonna read you out something 'cause just to give you a sense of the
level of debate is currently happening.
Right.
So Mark Levin very pro-Israel taught radio host Versus Meghan Kelly X. Fox News.
She'll remember
her.
Andy: Is anyone involved Not
Helen: in broadcast?
No.
That's the wi, right?
Okay.
everyone is 12 and everyone is a chat show host.
Those are the only things
Ian: you
need
to know
that explains so
much about
Helen: war, the war, everything about what?
American politics.
Okay.
So me, Kelly, first of all, attacks Mark Levin saying,
calling him MicroPen Mark Levin.
Right.
and Saying that's why he's in favor of this war.
He then says, busy Sunday morning for me, Kelly, she wakes up and
has micro penis on her mind.
Suffice to say, if it talks like a harlet and posts like a harlet,
it's, well, you know the rest shalom.
At which point Donald Trump thinks, here's a beef I should get involved with.
Oh God.
And on truth social defending Levin is a truly great American patriot who is far
smarter than those who criticize him.
Ian: the resident of the United States has got nothing better
Andy: to do.
Helen: do.
No.
Just Weigh in on the great MicroPen controversy of 2026.
But this is what's happening is you've basically got load of,
yeah, like cable news hosts.
I mean, Pete Hegseth of Secretary of War is a former Fox News host.
This is basically a load of preening pre bad Donna, who have somehow accidentally
been in, put in charge of the world's only superpower and it's enormous arsenal.
And of course, they're all fighting with
each other.
So the base is
still very with Trump, but he has lost significant portions of the kind of MAGA
Ian: over
this.
Can I, can I ask what happened
Helen: to
the Army?
Are, Are,
Andy: are
Ian: are there any generals left?
Is there
anyone left in command
in America
Helen: who says,
Ian: I'm not sure about this,
Andy: yeah,
Helen: or, well, someone's, someone's
Andy: Someone's launching these
missiles,
Helen: are they?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, Pete Hegseth has been pretty explicit about clearing people out.
You know, he gave, went and summoned them all, if you remember,
of that lecture about how they weren't allowed to have beards.
Um, and, you know, he's
been very
clear that He wants a, you know, he wants a stereotypically masculine military, and
he wants one that is not going to gain say anything that they're ordered to do.
So you are right.
The big figures of Trump won, like, um, general Mark Kelly, like HR McMaster
gone.
He wasn't gonna make the mistake of appointing anybody like that again.
And the two things they used to do was, one, they used to tell him to his
face, were a bad idea, and two, I think they used to quietly hide his briefing
papers and hope he'd forget about it.
Also, it turned out a great tactic, but now he's got Marco Rubio, who he used
to attack all the time as little Marco and just, you know, once so said, you
know, if you locked him in a room, you know, he could slide under the door.
Right.
That, that, that's, he would just all his principles.
JD Vance, who's been stuffed in a cupboard, um, and knows that his only lane
for 2028 is as you know, continuity Trump.
So he can't break from him.
Susie Wiles is the chief of staff was picked because she was just
there to enable whatever he wants to
do.
Mm-hmm.
and who in the whole of the Republican party is, is a counterweight to him.
You know, like Mitt Romney's out of the Senate, you know, there are
a couple of senators like Thomas Tillis, who's on his way, out, who
will vote against his nominees, stand up to him, make criticisms, right.
Ian: Um, but,
none of
this matters.
The great vaunted American system of, of checks
Helen: and balances.
Ian: It, it doesn't seem to
Helen: work at
does
it?
No,
Congress, you know, at the moment, if you look online, you will see that
are two or three hour long queues at security at American airports.
And that's just because of essentially a partial government shutdown in funding.
They have this mad idea that you can, like fund agencies and, and
you keep voting, you know, Congress needs to reapprove funding.
And what's happened with that is that the Republicans have attached
a load of ICE funding, immigration enforcement funding to it, which the
Democrats don't wanna vote through.
So while they continue to have this stalemate, people have now
to get to the airport 15 hours early and stand in the car park.
Like there was this line, I think it was PJ R always used to have
about, you know, Republicans say.
Government doesn't work and then they set out to prove it.
And there is a lot of that in American politics, right?
It's just that we just, you know, don't really care that
much about government working,
is it?
Just that
Richard: it takes so long for these checks
Helen: balances for
Richard: the
Helen: courts to act,
and,
Richard: you
know, so there's just not effective.
'cause that
Helen: was always
Richard: the
the lime, wasn't
Helen: it?
Oh, don't worry too
Richard: much about Trump because
Helen: the checks and balances would kick.
in
a lot better this time though.
So without getting too conspiratorial.
No, I mean,
all agree to
disagree.
No, I mean, he's not Better Okay.
getting what he, he wants or the people who work for him.
So in, um, Steven Miller, who's effectively his minister, you know, he has
got a doctrinaire anti-immigration idea.
Ideolog, who is crucially quite well liked by his staff and
really good at bureaucracy, right?
He, he's not a, although his wife a podcaster, inevitably.
'cause that's the law, someone in his family's got a podcast
and it's gonna have to be you.
Um, so, you know, he's got these kind of dry bureaucrats essentially
in now.
And thanks to things Project
2025, which was the Heritage Foundation's blueprint for a second Trump government,
he's got a kind of tick list of stuff that he can do often using executive orders.
You saw the big barrage of them at start.
Lots of those, when they eventually up at the Supreme Court will get overturned.
But
it
takes
months and
the Supreme Court gets to pick its docket to some extent.
So it
can pick and choose what it wants to look at.
I mean,
the midterms are, coming up and that really might be
when it changes everything.
and also at that point, lots of Republicans start thinking
about their positioning 2028.
Do they want to be left holding this?
on?
Probably by that point, unpopular failed
war And that might encourage a few of them grow tiny whisper of a vertebrae.
Just
to
Ian: yeah.
Helen: I'm
interested you say that,
Ian: there's no one pointing these things out and.
until The
head of counter-terrorism says,
do you think Israel's leading this war?
I mean, last week on
Helen: our
Ian: page,
uh,
Helen: one of our readers,
Ian: know, and this is a
full
Helen: two weeks
Ian: ahead, said, I think we should call this the
Helen: Israel, US
Iran
Ian: And I thought, well, that's quite good.
That's from one of our readers is is there no one of
Helen: that level
Ian: competence
Helen: operating in
the
House?
I mean, as I say, most of the people I think are really competent are
on the domestic side of policy.
And you know, the thing is,
I mentioned this before in my that um, you've got Jared Kushner, for
example, one of the envoys
and, uh, Woff, they're also supposed to be doing
Ukraine.
You know, you've got a situation now in which the US is also blockading Cuba.
Right.
Cuba's had
power cuts intermittently, and they're all
kind of going, well.
we should, there was a report in Atlantic, my other organization saying
that they're casting round for a Republican donor with family links to
Cuba who might fancy going over and having a, having a crack at being in
Andy: of
q
Helen: to being
the governor.
I mean, there's lots, there's a big Republican Florida
community of of of expats who'd love to have a crack at being head of Cuba.
They give you your own cigar.
Absolutely.
Your
life expectancy is
Ian: six
to eight
Richard: months.
It sounds to be like reform
taking over councils
Helen: here, doesn't it?
So warmer.
A
lot
Ian: warmer.
Yeah.
So Trump's cut off
Helen: the
oil
Ian: Cuba
and opened it again.
So
Helen: Iran
can
Andy: sell.
Yes.
Helen: I want, can you
explain
this.
So yes, I,
Andy: this is exactly what I to ask.
So, so far
as far as I can tell, there are
Helen: three beneficiaries of the war.
One is a big American oil
exporters of visa.
Mm-hmm.
The price has gone up enormously.
Andy: Uh,
Helen: one is Russia.
Andy: Uh, they'll, they'll
Helen: get a lot more and they've just had their sanctions lifted.
And the third is
Iran.
The USA seems to have allied
with Iran to lift its sanctions to ensure that the
prices
Andy: don't go
Helen: completely outta control.
Richard: well this is
Helen: is what's going
on there?
Richard: You know, like we were talking about earlier, just not understanding the
consequences of reaction of your actions.
You know, this is gonna hit the oil price that's gonna
hit inflation.
Um, oh, we didn't really think about that.
You know, you go to war in the Middle East and don't think about the effect on the
Helen: oil
Richard: oil price
until,
until a bit later.
Um,
so yeah, I mean, it is must
Helen: be the most, perhaps the only example of,
Richard: one power funding its enemy during a war
Helen: It reminded me a bit of the Russian invasion
Andy: Ukraine, where
Europe is
Helen: still using a a, Yeah, a
Andy: of, I
Helen: mean, they've
Andy: to diversify
Helen: a lot
away
Andy: Russian
Helen: gas and
Andy: and
they've, I think they'll have completed the job next
Helen: year, but
Richard: Well, I think, I think they just haven't understood that, you know,
the markets are all interconnected.
Uh, it's not, you know, we don't get
Helen: our oil from,
Richard: you know, friendly countries and domestically and, and, and, you
know, Iran just sends it to China and
Helen: Yeah, whoever,
Richard: that it all goes on the same
market and therefore you get this terrible effect on prices and
not really understood that, and
Helen: not understood
Richard: the way that we
Helen: actually help.
Richard: break any kind of ring fence that you might wanna set
up by using places like Dubai
where, Iran and root oil pretty much to wherever it wants
through centers like that.
Helen: but he doesn't understand tariffs, so it's possible
he just
also willfully
Yeah.
international
markets.
Richard: Yeah.
And there's a
Helen: similar
sort of,
Richard: uh,
you know, this
Helen: negotiating tactic
Richard: with ta with tariffs where we're gonna, you know, if you don't come to the
Helen: table, we're putting a
Richard: massive tariff on you, and then
Helen: the time comes and you
Richard: sort of, like,
Helen: oh no, we'll give you another
Richard: of months.
You know,
Helen: this is the guy who's
supposedly, uh, you know, the great negotiator.
But what you've learned is that
Richard: you can't believe any, any threat he
Helen: he says
Richard: doesn't really stand up.
Helen: The
trouble
is
that, If he did go
Richard: with those threats, they're so
catastrophic
Helen: but it seems like a lot of these red lines have already
been crossed.
I mean, they were in the middle of a negotiation when the
Andy: war was launched.
Helen: So why would Iran come to the table to negotiate and
enter
the war,
Andy: given that,
Helen: yeah.
Trump has
shown that his word is not
to
Ian: be
relied
on.
I, don't, I don't think theirs
is
either.
To
be quite honest.
I'm not,
Helen: Like, I'm not
entirely sure that
Ian: be uh, assembled, uh, revolutionary guard would be that
Helen: worried about,
Ian: sticking
Helen: their negotiating positions either.
Ian: now I, I'm sure that isn't
Helen: what you meant, but I mean,
Ian: the problem seems to be that
Helen: we're in a phony
war
Ian: where
Helen: if we are a war
Ian: Iran,
why are
Helen: we
Ian: them
to sell
their
oil, freely and make
Helen: more money and
Ian: themselves?
Helen: Why are we encouraging our
Ian: allies And Richard's written about this to carry on selling Iranian oil.
Um, but just doing it slightly
Helen: under the radar.
Ian: none of this makes a great deal of sense if
Helen: we were genuinely at
Richard: No.
Right.
But, but we, we have, you
know, we have allowed them to become so
Helen: embedded
that's
Richard: issue, you know, yes, it
would be great if you could say around, you're not selling any oil.
Um, and, and they're, you know, and they
Helen: suffer the consequences.
Richard: But, you know, it, it's in the system.
We've, we've
Helen: created
that system,
Is it international capitalism?
Richard?
Yeah, it was
Richard: scourge of,
Andy: Just
Helen: checking.
Okay.
I mean,
this is, if anything, a resounding sort of cheer international capitalism because
that's appears me the only thing that has any restraining value on Donald Trump.
Right.
He obviously made the announcement that he did because he's very
about inflation and the economy,
and particularly American gas prices, which are like
kind of
holy
Andy: value.
Helen: I
know they've gone from American petro prices have gone from insanely
Andy: cheap to criminally
cheap, and the
American
Helen: people will not
put
up
with
those Extraordinary
prices.
They
Andy: have to,
Helen: honestly, as a Brit looking at those prices, you
think, come on.
I know I quite regularly fill up like a big SUV Sorry, close your
is, you don't wanna hear sorry.
When I'm across America and I go and I'm like, and I, and I
consistently, because
my, you've charged
me for the chocolate
bar.
here, right?
because my car doesn't work.
Like you have have the special mag, stripe card, whatever in America.
I often have to go in and prepay for the pump.
And I always, I go, well, that's a, I'm essentially driving a tank.
It's probably gonna cost what, like $50 to fill that up.
And then
every time I've massively overestimated.
Andy: Mm-hmm.
Helen: Did
you, um, talk about Saturday Live, did you see that Donald Trump reposted
the Saturday Night Live sketch, taking the piss out of ki Yeah.
For, For
Andy: afraid of
him.
The un
Helen: Kind of cut
of off.
I know.
But I, but that also kind of reflects that other thing that we've been talking
about, about the Trump's belief that his allies are really stepped up for him.
And he was sort of like, why haven't you not guys not open the strait of s s You
Ian: won't
eat
a
bunch of
ingrates.
Helen: but petrol prices will go
Andy: as you say,
Helen: and Americans do drive twice as far with
Andy: less efficient cars.
Helen: So it will, it will
Andy: people
Helen: that won't it?
Or certain people will feel it in their pockets.
Oh, I mean, it's, it's just an unfathomably vast country.
So even just like the logistics of getting food and things around
the country have a huge knock on effect, even if people weren't
driving pickup
trucks where the wheels
are like that high.
Right,
Andy: right,
right.
You, but
yeah.
Helen: But America is more insulated than lots of
Andy: other places.
Is
Helen: is another
element
of
this whole
thing,
is this
because of the shale gas?
Andy: They're
fracking?
Helen: Yeah.
Well, since the,
Andy: the 1973
Helen: oil crisis, the oil Shock America was a
Andy: big net importer at
Helen: the time, and now they're a big net
Andy: exporter.
I
Helen: that will affect their
their
Andy: to it.
Helen: All the Asian
Andy: are having a driver
Helen: time.
they've already gone to four day weeks in various places because
they're trying to preserve the
Andy: they've got, um,
Helen: they've set limits on what you can set the air conditioning
to because the, the electricity
Andy: gas based.
So there are plenty of
Helen: countries that are in a mad
scramble at
the
moment
Andy: try
and
Helen: deal with
Andy: and
Helen: not knowing when full
supplies
Richard: will be resumed.
But,
Helen: And
there is
a feeling that,
Ian: And old Sparky was writing it for us, is that, um, it's a big crisis,
but it's particularly a crisis if you
are
a
poor country.
because the remaining
Helen: stocks
Ian: be, you'll be outbid.
Sorry.
Helen: Yeah.
other
Ian: countries will buy the liquified gas.
They'll buy whatever there is, and if you are Bangladesh it's gonna be a
bit grim.
Yeah.
Helen: we have a war in
Ian: the richest western
country America is
saying, well, we can keep this war going.
You're thinking, Yeah.
Richard: what
Helen: what about
the
rest
of
the
world?
Yeah.
So
we spoke last time on the show about what
Andy: in Pakistan after
Helen: Russia invaded Ukraine, uh, in relation to their energy system.
Pakistan
Andy: then
Helen: had a bit of a Soler revolution where they've
Andy: I mean, huge numbers
Helen: like gigawatts and gigawatts of Soler
that has changed Pakistan's
Andy: to, to
Helen: a greater extent than Bangladesh
Andy: where Bangladesh is still very reliant.
Helen: we have can I float a new conspiracy though?
Yeah.
Which is that Trump is actually being
Andy: controlled by
Greta Thunberg
Helen: because this
war
just a giant advert for
like de
fossilizing
your
economy.
I
like, I like
that
theory.
He's actually
all this
time he's
been
a
mole,
He's been run
incredibly
deep
cover.
deep.
you know, just putting
Richard: the, uh, you know, reforming alternative, uh, perhaps
Helen: it's an A
Richard: for having, you know,
Helen: emergency supplies of your own,
Andy: maybe
we should drill
Helen: the North Sea.
I'm just gonna float the idea.
it, first, but it is about
Richard: about energy
Helen: security.
I mean, it does show, you
know,
Andy: importance of security.
Helen: Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy: Um,
Helen: but it's,
it's
funny
'cause
Andy: time these.
Helen: Crises
happen and they
do keep
Andy: happening.
Helen: The alternatives are looking better economically.
Andy: You know, things like
battery storage, which is probably
Helen: down by
about half since 2022.
Andy: I mean,
Helen: the cost of the alternatives
Andy: on changing.
Helen: China is the fourth beneficiary of this war, really,
Andy: because I think
Helen: a lot of countries will be
Andy: looking at their
Helen: plans for big expansions of natural gas
and thinking,
Andy: Hmm, maybe
we
Helen: could just do
a bit
of
Andy: and storage
Helen: quite sunny here.
Andy: is
quite cheap now,
Helen: But
we'll
drill the
North Sea
and
Andy: be
all
right.
Uh,
Richard: Yeah,
Helen: That, that's the default opposition
position at
Ian: moment,
isn't
it?
Helen: Yeah.
Why
don't
we
just
Andy: the Northeast and
Helen: yeah.
it's kept
happening
since
we, thought we this since podcast when you
Andy: how that
wouldn't
work.
Put this
to bed
Helen: two
weeks ago.
Yeah.
Um, now you,
Andy: you
keep
putting
it
to
bed
Helen: and it keeps on getting up again.
Yeah, yeah.
Ian: It's almost as though, can we Batter
not,
Helen: wasn't listening to you.
Andy,
I
Andy: believe that.
Helen: I've spoken
Ian: this
morning
to
more people
involved
Helen: in
the
I
thought you gonna say Kemi B?
no,
she's
not picking up.
it is
Andy: an interesting
Helen: one 'cause
Andy: of people are putting
Helen: the case that we need everything all at once.
You know, we need to do everything to ensure stability and security.
but a lot
Andy: of the sides
Helen: of the debate will say, well, we need to do everything except the thing
Andy: chosen we shouldn't do.
So if
Helen: you Kimmy Bock or, or Richard Tyson Nigel Forgi say,
well,
we need
to do everything,
Andy: but let's not do the renewables.
Which
Helen: is basically an argument for doing
Andy: the North Sea.
You know, and again,
Helen: there's a case for
doing it.
If you
Andy: to maybe nationalize
Helen: the industry, that
would be,
that
would
be an option.
What about a lovely
Andy: nuclear power?
Helen: plant?
Yeah.
10
years from now.
Terrific.
Yeah,
absolutely.
would be.
Andy: When 10,
Helen: sorry.
Andy: 20.
How
long?
Any The advance
Richard: that
Helen: Yeah.
Yeah,
Andy: yeah.
Helen: it's so
' Andy: cause governments keep on having
Helen: these shocks and, that, you know, we had the shock in 2022.
Richie soak,
Andy: Saks,
one of his next moves was to say,
Helen: well, let's roll back the, the
electric car mandate.
Let's go
Andy: Let's,
let's
Helen: keep our reliance on this stuff
for longer.
the government's
Andy: package has been pretty decent.
Helen: What they've said is very short term.
If
you're
Andy: with
heating
oil,
Helen: but lots of
Andy: use heating oil, still, we're gonna
Helen: support you, but in a
Andy: way
because
Helen: they're not yet
Andy: countenance in the idea of supporting everyone's bills
again.
Helen: Um,
I'm
not
sure
we
can
Ian: that,
can
we?
Helen: It
doesn't seem like
it
Borrowing is quite, quite
difficult,
at
the moment,
Richard: it, Richard?
the trouble is that yeah, it's very difficult
to get back
Helen: to normal
in the meantime.
Richard: Um,
you know,
and often sort of counterproductive.
cause you're saying, well, we really gotta reign in now.
We've gotta cut that debt to get
Helen: that
interest
down
and
Richard: on.
then
Helen: you
end up not putting money into
various
Richard: like, you know, and now we're talking about
Helen: not enough burning to defend,
Richard: example.
Um, yeah.
You
Helen: know, you don't
Richard: address the problems.
you know, like COVID, we weren't prepared in
the health service.
Helen: This
Richard: has come along.
Helen: You
Richard: we've got a couple of
dinghies we can send
Helen: over.
You know, we're
not
prepared
Ian: this
one,
Yeah.
Um, well,
Helen: let's
say the next
crisis
is in the arts.
Ian: Sure.
Andy: It's a, unfortunately the
Helen: arts we're always in crisis.
There's
Andy: solution there.
Um,
Helen: can I say one more quick thing
Andy: energy?
Just that
Helen: no matter who you talk to, all over,
Andy: everyone's
solution is the
Helen: same, which is lower
Andy: price of
electricity
Helen: for people who
Andy: want bills
to be lower,
Helen: uh, like the
Andy: or the conservative.
Helen: Removing levies
Andy: electricity bills
Helen: and maybe putting them into general taxation, maybe it's scraping,
Andy: whatever.
They have different proposals,
Helen: but that cheapens
Andy: bills for people who actually want the transition to
Helen: happen.
When I
Andy: myself in
that camp,
that
Helen: making the electricity price lower encourages people
to adopt these solutions,
Andy: know, it's, and
Helen: we've already largely made the, the
Andy: grid green, but
Helen: there's so
Andy: elsewhere.
Helen: Mostly the cars we drive and how
Andy: heat our homes, that is remaining to
Helen: be greened.
It
is, it
is
security.
I knew I, We start off with the wrong one.
I knew we'd up
at
cross
pavement
charging
Andy: system.
Helen: No, no, no, Heat.
Heat
pumps and electric cars
are the electric.
They are
stability.
They are,
they're basically
Did I follow security?
You were saying
Ian: that essentially the populous view of get, get the
Helen: bills down 'cause we
want to
Ian: less is actually a positive green,
Helen: incitement.
I think getting the bills down means more people will
Andy: encouraged to adopt these solutions.
Helen: Yep.
I think reform of the conservatives have said various things like, we're gonna
scrap net zero targets, we're going to
Andy: scrap heat pump incentives.
I
it would not be
Helen: good for the climate in
Andy: long run
or emissions,
Helen: but getting the electricity price down seems
Andy: be
the thing everyone can agree on.
Because you make these solutions even
Helen: more economically
compelling,
more people
will
adopt
it, You know, car, if you can fill up an electric car for seven
quid and your, your diesel's just
Andy: up to a hundred quid.
It
Helen: becomes, it becomes
more
So yeah,
Andy: that
seems
to be
Helen: the thing we should
bear
in
mind
for next
Andy: this
happens, which
Helen: will be
in
about
two
years, apparently.
Yeah.
so now we come to
Andy: the exciting world
of finance.
Richard, you
Helen: write the in the money column.
And there
Andy: been a few
Helen: stories recently, both in your column
Andy: across, across,
Helen: the rest of the press about, um,
a little
Andy: party
Helen: called reform
Andy: and the
Helen: very innovative
things that they're
Andy: with money, Things like them receiving
Helen: donations in
the form of
crypto.
it seems to be,
it
seems to be a
Richard: vibrant area.
Helen: And
um, they're at the
Andy: at the cutting edge of this.
Yeah, definitely.
Richard: Um,
can
you
tell us
Helen: what what
Andy: gives
Richard: Yeah.
Well,
Helen: they've
said
they, well, who
Richard: gives?
Yes.
Well, that's the point.
We can't,
Helen: right.
Um, or
Richard: not sure.
Helen: they've said that, um, they've started taking
Richard: crypto donations,
Helen: but none are actually recorded
Richard: yet.
If they are, they're getting washed through the
Helen: crypto system and
turned into real money.
and
Richard: process, doesn't
Helen: give you
Richard: great confidence
Helen: in where the money originally
Richard: from
Helen: now there's no,
Richard: we haven't got a case
Helen: where we can say, ah,
Richard: money you said came from
Helen: This direct actually
Richard: came from Mrs. Y, but that's what it potentially allows you
Helen: to do.
And that's why there
Richard: people arguing for banning crypto
Helen: donations
Richard: or donations
Helen: that
originate
with
crypto.
government shows no
Richard: of doing that.
It's,
Helen: it's quite procr as well.
God, I thought we weren't so procr.
I mean, obviously
the,
the Trump
family
is massively
procr.
Um, they, you
know, had this big stake in World Liberty
They sold the Qatar just before Inauguration Day.
Donald Trump Junior Is every shady crypto conference in the Middle Well, actually
that's probably really neck of their
business model shady looking crypto conferences in the Middle East, but
I, I, I I sort of thought we were
maintaining what I'd like to think of as a kind slightly more useful reserve.
But that not true?
Britain is,
Richard: is
Gungho crypto as well?
Well, we,
Helen: we are saying that we want to regulate
it properly
mm-hmm.
in
order
Richard: have a, you
know, a
Helen: you know,
Richard: healthy, responsible crypto industry.
Helen: the question is
Richard: you know, there really is such a thing,
Helen: you
know, if you look
at who uses this
Richard: stuff
Helen: for real
Richard: as opposed to just
Helen: kind of
Richard: it and hoping it goes up in value.
pornography, uh, you know, drugs, anything,
Helen: uh,
Richard: laundering.
it's,
Helen: hard to find.
And you know, you even find, it, we wrote a
Richard: uh, a couple of issues ago about the guy who runs the
Helen: payment
Richard: company that Reform are using,
Helen: and he was at
Richard: conference saying,
Helen: oh, you know, we, you know, we've
Richard: pornography covered, we've got, um, you know, we've got the drugs covered.
Um,
Helen: we, we are looking
Richard: some decent purposes to, for people to use our product.
You know, they just haven't really got it.
Helen: is if you, if you
Richard: do something legitimate with
Helen: money,
why
don't
Andy: you
Helen: just
use
ordinary
money, Right?
You
use a bank
as as you like to call them, and you get
that, you get
deposit insurance, right?
As a consumer,
you get up to something like
85,000
pounds.
you have in a bank
account,
The, the, like the
government will back if the bank goes
Richard: under,
Yeah.
If you
lose
the
keys
to
your,
like
Helen: your crypto wallet
or someone steals it.
no one is coming to you.
Like, I just,
I'm
Richard: extreme caution is how I,
Helen: word crypto.
No, I mean, there was
Richard: famous case,
Helen: guy
who's
Richard: laptop
Helen: his laptop in the,
Richard: out and he, he, You know, the Bitcoin or whatever had gone up in
Helen: value so much.
Richard: tried to buy the whole,
Helen: Yeah, it was a council waste disposal dump.
Yeah.
Dump from the council, said, I'll give you millions
Richard: this so
Helen: but Nitro forage can't
use
banks, can't
he?
Andy: Well, I,
Helen: I, Yeah,
he
got he, he was de he by Coutts.
But I, I think that was an interesting one that, that, I'm not saying
he, he it, but it came at a very useful time for him to use it as a,
and is
why Oh,
right.
You know, because he was also very into
gold.
Right.
Like he gold through his newsletter.
So the part of the Yeah.
Right.
The part of the political that he's appealing to is very
low trust
in institutions.
Yeah.
And then, so the message to sell crypto has always been don't trust the banks.
You know, have your
crypto keep, them like it's, it's money
Andy: can't be
regulated, can't be overseen.
Helen: I have to say
turning, I was
Andy: de banked by
Helen: Kouts into, pitch to people to
not
trust
Andy: is quite.
Fuck.
It's
Helen: quite good politics,
I've gotta
say.
It's
quite
cleverly
done.
Richard: and he's certainly
Helen: going
going strong on both gold
Richard: and crypto.
he's got
Helen: this big, gig with the
gold company,
Richard: direct bullion company
Helen: who are paying him, you know, hundreds of thousands
of
pounds.
Richard: not that he's necessarily
Helen: used that money, but he's put a very similar amount
Richard: money
Helen: into,
Richard: A crypto company whose largest
Helen: shareholder is the guy
Richard: paid him all that money for the, for endorsing
Helen: gold.
Andy: This is this separate to
Richard: quasi
Quaye?
Well, the,
Helen: no
it's not.
This
Andy: is the quasi
Helen: Quaye
Ian: Bitcoin Company, which is
Discre.
Is
Helen: Is it called that?
Because I
Richard: would
suggest
that's not
Helen: a
very
good
name
To market.
Why
Is it not
called
Richard: Paul?
It's, it's,
Helen: crazy.
it's allied with the, with the trust, uh, investment management, uh, company.
Richard: Uh, no.
It's CROs
Helen: car.
and
Richard: chap
Helen: Paul with us, have joined up to create this company
Richard: called Stack Bitcoin, which is a
Helen: bitcoin
Richard: company,
Helen: which means
Ian: they'll
look
after
your
Helen: Bitcoin.
but
Richard: nothing
to do
with
the
treasury.
Ian: No,
Richard: don't, just checking.
Andy: No, aren't
Helen: know the debt quite arrived by, Aren't there rules
about what you, there are rules
Andy: you can't just say, this is the King's
Helen: crypto company
Richard: whatever.
You're allowed
to
Helen: stick
treasury
Richard: it.
You can
Andy: use
the
Richard: treasury.
Yeah.
Helen: I
mean,
Richard: up questionable whether
Helen: Party Quaye
should
ever
use
the word
treasury
again,
Richard: but, um, I
Helen: I
think
that's
a
Richard: a good
question.
Helen: so Ferra gets the money
Richard: from the gold company.
Helen: He puts it into,
Richard: the crypto company that
Helen: the gold guy involved
Richard: and this crypto
Helen: company shares leaps up, So it was all,
you
know,
very convenient.
Andy: That's what I'm really interested in,
because exactly as you say, when he announced,
I
Helen: think
it
was
215,000 pounds he'd invested in
this
Andy: stack
company.
Helen: the value then leaps.
Andy: he's
got various options, which
Helen: mean that if the value of this company goes above a certain
Andy: he will make a huge amount of money.
Helen: But obviously he's using his status as a
Andy: figure to
Helen: drive up the value of the coin.
I
mean
Andy: very,
this
Helen: is
Ian: thing about crypto.
Helen: You're looking
Ian: an
adjective.
And
Helen: and Richard
has
Ian: said convenient.
Helen: Sorry.
So if
you don't
want
the
lawyers
Andy: have to
Ian: spend
the
next
Helen: 35
minutes
convenience, Can we just
say
convenient?
Yeah.
Andy: As in
Helen: As in public convenience.
that's the kind of point of crypto
though, right?
Is in respects, it's trading on
reputation
and trading speculation.
Nobody buys crypto really as a safe haven.
buy it
because they
think they're going to
the moon.
And
Andy: like
the, thing that
Helen: the thing that annoys people, I wish I wish they would.
Well, no, but The thing that annoys people
like me, I I made a podcast about this once, was the fact that it
has delivered a huge amount of returns for pe like, for everybody
who was
the early investors.
Uh, I mean, and there's a weird analogy, analogy to some of the other stuff,
like
when they took the post office public and they
sold off the early things and
then immediate it spiked up.
So everybody who got in the early
Richard: Yeah.
made
absolute bank.
Helen: Well, it's like any
Richard: bubble, yes.
A lot of people make
money on it,
Helen: and a lot of people
Richard: money knowing
Helen: that it's a bubble, knowing that there's
no
Richard: to it.
Yeah.
But
Helen: they
just
Richard: hope they get out
Helen: before they think
the
other people, the
Richard: else realizes that, you know?
Helen: So, and this
Richard: could go on ages,
where
Helen: the public figure's politician, you'd think, well, that's a bit
Richard: really using
Helen: your,
Richard: uh, you know, political profile to boost a company.
But, you
know, in this,
case, they're, they're boasting of that.
Mm. Yeah.
Quasi Quaye saying, oh, it's
Helen: saying, oh, it's wonderful to have a
frontline politician,
Richard: as he described Farage combining this, this sort of
Helen: financial
bubble with political
Richard: and saying, yeah, come on, let's froth it all up.
Helen: It's, it's a bit like
Richard: Trump really on a
Helen: slightly
smaller
scale.
Andy: but not in the billions yet.
But
Helen: Farage has said he wants the Bank of England to
have a Bitcoin reserve, and he
wants
Andy: slash
the
tax on Bitcoin
Helen: transactions or cryptocurrency deals
Andy: by
more
Helen: than half.
is there an intellectual
Richard: underpinning
to
Ian: this or
is
there, yeah,
I thought you were about
to suggest, is the fact that he's advocating a policy that
will benefit both him and all
Helen: his friends,
Ian: is
that in
some
way convenient?
And
I
Helen: think
the
answer
is yes.
I
think
Richard: is
very
convenient.
and the
Helen: You have to ring underpinning is that people
Richard: Christopher Harboe like
it his
Helen: biggest
donor
Andy: and therefore
he
Richard: gives
him
millions.
This is
Helen: is
the Thailand
based,
this is Thailand based, Yeah.
Richard: who's given
Helen: reform party
Richard: than
20
Helen: million pounds.
coincidentally,
Richard: um, Farage, you know, favors tax breaks and so on for
crypto
Ian: It is an enormous
amount
as
a donor, isn't
it?
Helen: I
know you
frequently
catalog who gives
Ian: money?
Helen: Nick Kante.
he's
the treasurer, isn't
he?
is.
Richard: famous former
Helen: tax
Exxon, making a lot of
Richard: while he was, uh, offshore
Helen: through cashing in on one Hyde Park
Richard: and so on.
we
Helen: report a couple of
others in the
Richard: issue.
Um.
Using companies in the UK that
Helen: are owned by
Richard: British Virgin Island companies.
So again, we're not quite sure where The
money's coming
from.
The
Helen: companies in the UK are losing money, so it can't
Richard: be coming
Helen: entirely from them.
Richard: Um,
Helen: Yeah, and,
and there's various
Richard: other offshore donors.
There's another chap called Besim
Haar,
Helen: and Nigerian Lebanese
Richard: businessman who's very vocal in, uh,
wanting
Helen: non dom tax breaks to come back in.
Richard: and he has become
Helen: one
of Nigel's
Richard: close friends accompanying him to
Mar-a-Lago and so on.
Andy: I
Helen: I just think the reform, that's
Andy: so public spirited of these
Helen: businessmen who don't live here.
They don't,
Andy: know, they, they, they could just not get involved if they,
they wanted to have an easy life.
I
Helen: think
Ian: amazing that they're
doing
this
for
our
politics.
And,
Helen: I it all just makes, I just, it makes me feel so moist.
I'm sorry.
It really does.
I just really, really, seriously object to it and having it yoked to this
party
so Matt Goodwin, a candidate of reform, you
know, he's been in a bit of a hot water over book and people check
questioning the sourcing of that, and he's gone instantly to you.
snooty libs are trying to take me down.
Right, right.
And to have
a group of people who's,
who are a kind of affront to some
extent for offshore money, and there's a of tax reforms that would
extremely wealthy people saying that the only people who oppose
me must be this
of metropolitan elite
just gets on my nerve,
Ian: Such chronic.
Really
He does.
Helen: I, I found the fact that.
Ian: Richard Tyson
Helen: avoids
Ian: a lot of
tax.
Quite
convenient.
Helen: How, how how does
he do that,
Richard?
Richard: Well, he did, he's,
he's
Ian: been
stopped
from doing it
now,
but
he
Richard: did.
Helen: Uh,
he can't do anything
nowadays.
Andy: Exactly.
Was it
Helen: six, let's
just say
it
was
600,000
Richard: he managed
to
avoid in
tax.
Helen: wasn't that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
He's, he's a property
Richard: man
Helen: and
he decides to do a
Richard: more tax efficiently.
Helen: labor government
Richard: 2007 had
introduced a new.
type of property
Helen: investment company
Richard: called a real estate investment
trust.
Helen: And The
idea
behind it
Richard: that, lots of
Helen: different types of investors
Richard: come
Helen: together, pull their money
Richard: and invest in property, and we wanted to encourage that.
the,
Helen: the vehicle, they pulled their money in
Richard: be taxable.
Helen: so
it
was
intended
for like
big pool
Richard: investments,
Helen: like, you
Richard: like, like fund managers look after and so
on.
not for small family property companies based in Mayfair.
Um, but
Helen: Richard
Tys found a
way looking at
the
rules
of saying we are a, re you
know, so can we have a
Richard: tax
break?
Helen: happy days.
Richard: Um, and,
Helen: and,
and the revenue
Richard: did allow them that status for a
Helen: while.
Okay.
Richard: I think because they must
Helen: have, or they claim they
Richard: looking for other investors,
which
funnily
enough didn't
Helen: come off
Ian: Right.
Uh,
and then that
Helen: was
it.
So
the revenue has now stopped this?
Yes.
They've
Richard: lost that status,
Ian: it's 600,000 pounds is quite a
lot of
money.
Helen: Yes.
And
you pointed
Ian: in
the
last issue that, it's
quite
Helen: a lot
Richard: than
Ian: many
of
Helen: the
Ian: shirkers yeah.
Richard: That Mr.
Thais,
his party
have
been,
um,
pointing
at.
but that's the
Helen: towards that's the
Richard: I
mean the,
the, you know, this crowd
Helen: spec, if they specialize in anything, it's gaming
Richard: system.
yet the things they're
probably most exercised
about
among
other people
Helen: He is
Richard: with less money
Helen: system, less money's gaming
Richard: the
system.
You
Helen: know, they, they hate the idea of people
Ian: on benefits
and
Richard: on.
Or
making a
couple a
hundred
Helen: qui more than they should, yeah,
Benefits are okay if
sort
of six figures,
I, I think I find it quite worrying.
'cause I think, say what I've got, as you'll have heard on this podcast,
quite a few criticisms of, Stan.
I think he would front a
crypto company.
I don't think Theresa May would've done, I don't think Jeremy Corbin
done, I don't think Gordon Brown certainly would've done Tony
Blair.
Let's put a question mark mark for that one.
Maybe I would've waited until he left office.
Yeah, right.
And, and I'd say the populous drift of that I think really bothers me that
the erosion of the idea of conflicts of interest and the that you are in public
life, because as you say, the whole value that crypto company is about,
as, um, it was said he's frontline politician.
It's, it's
it's
a version
of what
Mandelson
selling
as you
know, is it's context.
Yeah.
That doesn't
work unless you are
in
politics.
So it to me,
a conflict, an
Richard: conflict
of
interest.
And as you
say,
very,
very
convenient,
Helen: Well, uh, I'm gonna find the OED first
Andy: after this recording's over and ask
Helen: them to add a new definition for the
Andy: convenient.
Um, thank
Helen: you so much for
watching.
Andy: This
Helen: podcast or listening to it.
If you would
Andy: to find out many
Helen: more of the brilliant
Andy: we've been running from Richard's,
Helen: in the money column to Old Sparky's Reflections on the world of
Andy: and gas and the, the
Helen: the energy system and so much more.
Besides you can get a copy
Andy: of Private I
Helen: by going into
Andy: shop
Helen: and buying
one, or by
going to private for
Andy: uk,
Helen: uh, and subscribing,
Andy: which is very reasonably priced.
I mean,
Helen: Richard Ty could buy
Andy: several thousand subscriptions to the magazine with
Helen: the money he's saved.
to Richard, if you're
watching,
Richard: we know You
Do,
Yeah.
Helen: uh,
why
not do
that
until they go
Andy: up
in value
as well
as
down your
Helen: your old private eyes will never
Andy: down
in value and we guarantee
that.
Helen: Uh, thanks to Helen, Ian, and Richard, and as always,
to
Matt Hill
of
Rethink Audio for producing.
Bye for now.
Richard: for now.