Welcome to Alumni Live: The Podcast.

These are conversations with Grand Valley State University film and video

graduates about the industry, the film, video, major and alumni profiles.

Hello.

Welcome to another episode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.

I am Jordan Skutar, and I work as a Camera Assistant in Chicago.

And today I'm talking with Jessica Tolliver.

How are you doing, Jessica?

I am pretty good.

Can't complain.

Glad to be here.

Can you tell me what you do in Chicago?

So I am primarily first and foremost a Director of

Photography slash Cinematographer.

Occasionally I a little bit in the camera department as like a Camera

Assistant, or a Camera Utility on the bigger productions here in Chicago.

But lately, for the past couple years, it's been a lot of just full-time DPing,

which is great, 'cause ultimately that's what I wanna do more than anything else.

Tell me a little bit about your career journey.

So your first interest, to college, to post grad.

What did that look like?

So, as a kid, I always loved music videos.

I used to stay at my grandma's house and, like, two or 3:00 in the morning,

I would watch a bunch of music videos on MTV or something called The Box, which

for the older heads out there, they might be familiar with what that is.

And so I've always had a fascination with music videos, especially back then,

the late nineties, early two thousands, 'cause they were a lot more thought out

and they were kind of like short narrative pieces in themselves, Michael Jackson

and things of that nature where there's an opening scene for the music video.

So there were short narratives and that really drew me in, the music

in tandem with telling a story.

And that passion always stuck with me.

So when I finally applied and got accepted to Grand Valley and had to

come up with a major, originally it was gonna be art, but I got intimidated

because the art program required a elaborate portfolio and things like that.

And then I was like, okay, what else am I passionate about?

And music videos always stuck with me.

At the time I had no clue what filmmaking and film production entailed.

I just knew that this was my ticket into music videos.

That was kind of how I made my decision.

A little haphazard, looking back.

But I entered the film and video program at Grand Valley and that's

when I was humbled and I learned that filmmaking is actually really difficult.

It takes a lot of work.

It's not just somebody sitting in a director's chair with a bullhorn

yelling stuff like "cut" and "action." It's, a lot more to it.

But I still stuck with it 'cause it was still challenging and

rewarding at the same time.

And I'm still here, crazily enough.

You are not scared off yet.

Not yet, I've met a lot of interesting characters and had a lot of interesting

experiences, but, it further reinforces my passion that I'm still

here, 'cause it's been a wild ride.

After graduating, I worked at a rental house, and that's when I

discovered my love for cinematography.

Cause five days a week, eight hours a day, 40 hours learning about

lenses, cameras, filtration, and just, anything camera related.

And then working with the DPs and the ACs and just learning the craft

and the decisions that they make far before they step foot on set

with what gear they wanna select.

It all just really interests me.

To see that at the rental house, and then to see the final product

changed my trajectory completely

So what was the decision like to leave and pursue self-employment?

' Cause you don't work at the rental house anymore, you freelance full-time, correct?

It was a really hard decision because if I had it my way, I could do both.

But I can't do both because in the world of filmmaking, it's heavily

freelance-based, especially for commercials and independent films.

The first thing they ask you before you take a job is, "Are you

available?" And so a lot of the times I found that more and more

frequently I was turning away jobs because I wasn't available at work.

And the camera rental I worked at, shout out to Keslow Camera, they were great.

It's a small team in Chicago, and they rely on one another,

'cause there's usually, like, eight people employed at a time.

And so they really miss your presence when you're not there.

So it's not something where I could just find a replacement

or somebody to fill in for me.

I was sort of one of the go-to prep techs at that time for Keslow.

So, yeah, it was a really hard decision and they were

really supportive when I left.

I still have an amazing, amazing relationship but yeah, I had to make that

decision to let one go for the other.

Yeah, my entry into film was a little bit similar to yours that I had no

idea what that entailed, and I had no idea what freelancing entailed.

Like I didn't even know that freelancing really was a thing or

that that's where I wanted to go, but I actually thought I wanted to

be an editor and edit movie trailers.

Throughout my film classes at Grand Valley, I realized that was not true.

I did not wanna be an editor at all.

I wanted to be on set.

And I first wanted to DP full-time, and then outside of school I realized that I

actually wanted to AC so I pursued that.

But one of my most important relationships has been with rental houses, and I think

we'll talk about it later too, of like, how do you stay connected in the industry

and how do you keep your skills up?

But that rental house relationship is so important I found, and having

multiple connections too, so working there I hope that was valuable,

even if you had to ultimately leave.

Yeah, I think honestly it was the greatest education I could have gotten.

The only caveat, again, is that you're not on set, so... hmm.

I take that back.

The best education you can get is actually on set, but when it comes to

cinematography and pre-pro and just understanding the nuances of that, I

think that was the best education I could have got, was working at a rental

house and just meeting so many different people and making all those connections.

So yeah, no, it was extremely valuable and I visit them all the time.

I still raid their fridge, I still go to their holiday parties.

You would think I was still an employee there.

Yeah, it was an amazing experience and like I said, if I could have had

it my way, I would be doing both.

That's awesome.

Let's break down the camera department.

So can you go through what does each role in the camera department do?

And then maybe we'll talk about who you're likely to see on set

and maybe who you're not likely to see on set, depending on budgets.

Yeah, for sure.

So, we'll start at the bare bones and then work our way out.

So, on the most simple form, of a independent film, you're gonna

see the DP, the AC, and yeah, in the camera department, sometimes,

that's literally it, which is crazy.

Yeah, we just did a project together where it was just us

two, just the DP and the AC.

And on bigger sets you might have a camera operator who's operating for the DP.

Hopefully you would have another AC, a Second AC, but more often than not these

days, it's just the DP and a first AC.

Correct.

Yeah.

And again, as, you get to a larger production, like, say a commercial

maybe, and like you said, a Camera Operator, you'd also have

the Second AC, which is nice.

And then of course, on the larger union productions, yes, that's when you would

introduce a Loader and a Camera Utility.

Oh, and then also a DIT.

That one kind of fluctuates though.

Sometimes it depends on how many cameras are involved.

Sometimes that's a way to incentivize the DIT, but that's another important

role in the camera department hierarchy.

Yeah, so it goes DP, Camera Operator, First, AC, Second

AC, Loader, Camera Utility.

And Camera Utility, it's often thought of as like a Camera PA, but the difference

between a Camera PA and Camera Utility is Utility is a union position, right?

Yeah, but no, Utilities do way more than just fetch coffee.

They are the head of village, right?

They make sure everyone has a feed on set, which is super important.

And they're wrangling a lot of cables.

So then what is a Loader?

The next step up.

So the Loader is essentially the data wrangler and they are the one

collecting the cards after every reload.

And they're also the one coordinating for the shuttle drives for the

footage to be transferred to drives.

Loader comes from the old school times of loading film.

Which they still do when you do shoot on film, you are a capital L loader.

They're organizing the footage properly and then sending it to

where it needs to go, which is typically the post-production house or

whoever's handling the footage next.

So then as we work our way up, what is the difference

between a Second and a First AC?

So the first AC is, in a way, like outside of the DP, the First AC

is sort of the head of the team.

I've always thought that the DP is very managerial in a lot of ways, in

that like you are talking to lighting, you have a lot of things to think

about and two different teams to communicate with because you're talking

with G & E and talking with Camera.

And so the First is kind of taking all the technical things that you shouldn't

have to worry about off of your plate.

You don't want the questions that have to go to the DP, if it's a question

about drives or if it's a question about gear or something that doesn't have to

pertain them, you're going to the first.

A hundred percent.

And they're kind of the first line of communication.

Like I think it's the First that collects the most information from the DP and then

distributes it to the rest of the team.

And you'll especially hear that on, walkies.

Like you'll have the First AC when union shoots announced.

Like, okay, the next scene we're moving over to this location.

And we'll have a 40 mil up next.

And then everybody copies and they, especially when there's multiple cameras,

it's usually a First That is sort of the head if it's multiple cameras.

So yeah, they're like the first line of communication.

And they're of course also the focus puller, which is one of the most

terrifying jobs to me personally, because, you know, can't nobody

watch nothing if it's, not in focus.

Yeah, and then you have, if you do, you have the Camera Operator, then

obviously the, the DP, which on smaller budgets, a lot of the time

the DP is also the Camera Operator.

That's very common, even on larger budgets.

I mean, DPs all have their, preferences.

Yeah.

Typically, in my experience, the DP stops being the Cam Op when

they introduce a new camera.

And that's how it should be.

So when there's multiple cameras involved, now the DP should be at

the monitor, 'cause it's important for them to see all the images

and all the frames of each camera.

But if it's one camera, like on a commercial, then yeah, they're

usually at the camera operating.

Unless you have specialty shots, maybe a steady cam shot or something where

your DP is not necessarily your Op.

True.

That, true that.

And then a 2nd AC, very underrated, might I add, because they're so valuable.

They are sort of the Assistant of the 1st.

The way I like to see it is, the 1st shouldn't have to leave camera.

The 1st should be near the camera at all times, so the second should facilitate

everything else, whether that's battery changes, lens swaps, if there's an

accessory needed for the camera, like changing the filters or changing the

Matte box, or adding grips to the camera.

The 2nd is the person who organizes that equipment and

retrieves it in a timely manner.

Cause that's another big thing.

It's imperative to be very organized when you're in a camera department

because we move very quickly and we should know where everything is

on the cart when we call for it.

And so they're sort of the ones, that are delegated for keeping everything

organized, labeled, clean, so that the AC doesn't have to think about

that, they can stay on top of focus pulling, 'cause that takes a lot of

real estate in your brain, right?

You have to be very laser focused when you're pulling focus.

'cause again, it's terrifying.

I don't know how you do it Jordan, but good job.

Yeah, I think as we talked about, budgets are getting smaller and

smaller and you called the 2nd AC you know, very underrated or

underutilized on sets because, we think, oh, the 2nd's just slating.

Why can't we have a PA slate?

Oh, the 2nd's just keeping camera logs.

Like, why can't the 1st keep camera logs?

They're not pulling focus in between shots.

But when you really break down what each of these roles are doing, it's a lot,

and then you think about a DP, if they're operating, or even the Camera Operator

themselves, like having to take the camera between setups and stuff, if it's on

their shoulder, and give them a break.

Like, now you have one person doing, essentially, three people's jobs,

and having to facilitate all of that.

It's a lot.

In my experience so far, I've found that budgets are getting tighter and tighter

as the years progress, unfortunately.

And so our crews are getting smaller and smaller as well.

And this is not a hard and fast rule, narrative tends to have smaller budgets

than say, commercial or corporate shoots.

But I've been on plenty of commercial shoots that don't have the budget

for a 2nd anymore, cause clients are just really hanging on.

So those budgets are getting a lot tighter.

There's no strict rule between commercial and narrative of what you'll see.

You'll see some patterns, but I don't think I can necessarily judge anymore.

It's project dependent, what resources you're gonna have, but that

almost makes it even more important that you bring on good people.

Professional people, people you trust.

Because if we're all going to be wearing multiple hats, you wanna make

sure they're not only professional and know what they're doing, but

you also wanna work with them.

They're also just a good person.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

So many hats.

and yeah, I always say I'd rather work with the person who has average

knowledge or like a decent skillset, but great character, than somebody who's

extremely competent, but is a jerk, right?

Because you're spending 14 hours with this jerk.

And that can be tiring.

But I can absolutely work with someone who's enthusiastic, has

great work ethic, respectful, Yeah.

Any day.

Yeah.

And I also wanna give more opportunities when I am in the position to give

opportunities, I wanna give more opportunities to those kinds of people

who I find to be very respectful, and, kind, and I enjoy working with, more than

the person who seemingly knows it all.

Like, I don't want that.

Nope.

And they both out here in the world.

So what do you do to develop the skills to do this work, now and maybe

when you were in school as well?

I would say what my mentor told me, if you're trying to be a

cinematographer, learn lighting period.

If I could do it all over again, I would learn lighting before I learn camera.

There's no getting around, becoming a skilled DP.

The reason I say that is because, cameras for one, they're ever evolving.

They're always changing.

I guess I'll just put it this way: I've witnessed very, very talented DPs

that knew everything about lighting and knew nothing about cameras.

And you don't really need to, because you have a first AC, and also once you learn

one camera, you can pretty much learn any other camera, because the one thing

that's gonna be consistent is you're gonna have manual control over white balance,

exposure, shutter speed, that's always gonna be consistent across the board.

So you don't have to really put a lot of thought into what kind of camera.

But lighting is really the thing that creates the image and directs the

audience to what you want them to see, and that creates the immersion

and creates the depth and creates the feeling and creates the tone.

You can't get that from learning a camera.

The best you can do is compose well, but still it will never be as strong as

a shot that is well lit. I understand lighting is very intimidating.

You hear things like "inverse square law and output and wattage, and

you're like, " run for the hills!" But the best way you can learn lighting

is just to get your hands dirty and understand how light behaves.

And you won't understand how light behaves until you just turn

a light on and see what it does.

So that was the thing that elevated me the most as a DP.

That's when the jobs that were offered started to change.

And yeah, again, I learned lighting from being on set, working with

gaffers and collaborating with gaffers.

That was really imperative.

You know, It's really funny that you mention that because I mentioned earlier

that I was interested in pursuing a career as a DP, and then I switched to ACing.

That was one of the things that made it clear to me that I did not wanna be a DP,

was that I had no interest in lighting.

I was like, man, I have to get good at this thing that I really do not

like, I don't care about composition, I don't care about lighting.

I just wanna mess with the camera.

And then I realized that that's what ACs do.

ACs mess with the gear.

The DP, I work with very, very talented DPs, but when it comes to building the

camera, sometimes I'm more knowledgeable at how to route, let's say the SDI, or

how to problem solve a wireless system, which is not the DP's job, right?

But that's the stuff that I was so interested in that I

realized, I wanna do these things.

That does not mean I wanna be a DP.

It means I wanna be an AC.

And that's what I was really passionate about.

And you're so right that the best DPs know lighting really well.

And I'm always shocked that it's not as common of a route for people

to take, to go from Gaffer to DP.

People definitely do it, but I feel like when you're in school you think,

oh, I gotta be in the camera department if I wanna work my way up to DP.

That's a more common, career path that I see people trying to take.

I just don't know that that's always the best way to do it.

Oh yeah.

No, I mean there's definitely some a ASC members I'm familiar with that started

coming up in a G & E rental house.

They're amazing.

It's also funny that you noted that it's not the DP's job to build camera,

because I volunteered on this last project we did together to build the camera,

I'm like, ah, you don't have to come.

It's unpaid.

I'll just build it." And you were like, no, no, no,

Yeah, I definitely prefer to build the camera, and I've certainly worked

with some very, very talented DPs who I did not trust to touch that

camera, you were not one of them.

For sure.

It's so important to have that trust in your first AC though.

They're gonna streamline it so that when you ask for the camera, it shows up

fast with everything you need, the right focal length, the right filtration, and

they're gonna do it a lot faster than you.

As a DP, you don't have no business worrying about that.

You got too much stuff going on then how to change the

shutter speed in two seconds.

Let the AC do it.

'cause they know, you just focus on the image and you

just focus on being the artist.

Yeah.

And that's my job is to support you in that way.

I wanna take all of that on all the technical stuff on so

you can focus on the image.

I'm happy to always do that, as an AC and I think other ACs would agree.

I loved what you said about how to build your skills, that

time on task is so important.

And taking as many opportunities as you can, but also not burning yourself out.

Know your limits and know when you're at capacity, because if you are dedicating

yourself to all of these different projects, it's going to affect your

ability to do your job really well and a hundred percent on specific things.

And that's gonna shine through, things are gonna start to fall.

I used to think that saying yes to every single thing that came my way

was the way to build my career, but it so quickly led to burnout and

not finding joy in doing my job.

And so I just had to learn that there's so much value in saying no.

No is a full sentence and you don't need to justify it to anyone but yourself.

So taking as many projects as you feel capable of taking on.

One thing, as you begin to evolve in the industry, one of the skill

sets that you do have to get really good at for yourself is boundaries.

That is a big one.

One of the worst experiences I have on set, I'm not gonna name drop any

productions But I will say some of the worst experiences that I have

are productions that are exploitive.

People will learn that you have a passion for the craft and abuse it.

And use it to their advantage.

And so, yeah, you can't say yes to everything if it's impacting your

mental health, if it's impacting your physical health, you deserve sleep,

you deserve food, you deserve water.

Like, that sounds funny, but I'm serious, and if none of those things are happening,

you have to know when to walk away.

It's really difficult to set those boundaries as a freelancer.

And I think you certainly get better at it but I think it's a constant

thing on your mind of rent is due.

How can I say no to this project, even though it's low paying, even though it's

going to be a 15 hour day, even though we only get one meal, even though crafty

is only Doritos, how do you give that up?

And it's important to.

Because at the end of the day, if you are not setting those boundaries for

yourself, how are you going to advocate for other people in the industry too?

And how are you going to have enough motivation in yourself to keep going?

How, how are you not going to get burnt out?

That's definitely a great point, as a DP, you do have to protect your crew.

I consider that to be a responsibility of a DP, 'cause one of the skill sets

you need to have as a DP is leadership.

But then also, yeah, again, protecting your crew and making

sure that they are in the best position to deliver the best product.

And that involves them being rested, fed, in, in safe conditions.

Yeah, Uplifting each other was one of the things I had in skillset as well.

Uplifting each other and supporting each other, both on set, like you said,

setting boundaries, but also following each other on socials, liking each

other's posts, interacting with each other's posts and saying positive things

and spreading awareness of each other's projects and helping each other I think

is such an important part of not only being in the camera department, but

also being in the industry in general.

Also learning how to communicate effectively and professionally.

We talked about that a little bit.

You mentioned a lot of the camera department is showing leadership,

especially as a DP when you're in those leadership positions and

things on set can get really tense.

You're working really long hours, there's a lot of pressure to do your job, because

people will notice when you don't.

People will notice when the focus is off.

People will notice if the picture is not in focus.

People will notice if the composition isn't right.

So you gotta remain professional and don't take things personally

either, I think is really important skill sets to have in the industry.

A hundred percent.

Well, that is kind of a good segue then into our next

topic, which is the industry.

How do you work your way up in the industry, just in general, in camera.

Oh, should I start with, before you even get into the camera department or

once you're in the camera department?

That's a good question I think everyone's path is a little bit different, and

especially when we have people taking non-traditional paths, now, mine

included, that you don't always start as a Utility anymore to get your experience.

How do you make the shift from student to professional?

So the first sure fire thing that you have to do to start working

as a professional is get on set.

' Cause that's where you're gonna learn the fastest and that's

where you're gonna learn the most.

How do you get on set?

You have to network, so you gotta go to film festivals.

What's great about Chicago here is we're much smaller than LA and

we're a pretty tight-knit community, so it's easy to be a familiar

face if you show up enough, right?

Go to these networking events.

. Connect, be vocal, and then you gotta put some skin in the game.

You gotta work for free man, you gotta do some free stuff.

You gotta show your enthusiasm and just say like, "Hey, whether it's paid or not

paid, I just really wanna be involved. I wanna learn, I love film and I'm happy

to be an extra hand on set for you guys."

And that's kind of your segue in to start getting on set on independent things.

Another hack I did, and I think it's important that, when you're on set, find

the right opportunities to be vocal.

And I say the right opportunities 'cause once you're on set,

not all times are opportune.

When people are working or when people are focused, don't interrupt

them, but say it's lunch, right?

Or, say there's some type of downtime.

Be vocal and gravitate towards the department that you wanna be in

and have a conversation with them.

Again, show your face, introduce yourself, say you're interested

in wardrobe or camera or whatever it is and let them know.

And then say the same thing, "Hey, paid or unpaid, I just wanna learn more

about wardrobe. I'm happy to help."

And finally, something that I did when I was a PA and I wanted to work in

Camera is, I always reminded Camera that I was readily available to help.

Especially if it's just the 1st, right?

be the 2nd if there's not a 2nd, as a PA. So I started with something simple

like, "Hey, I can go grab that battery for you", or, "Hey, since you have

the camera, let me carry the block battery 'cause block batteries are

heavy." And then that led to filters.

"Oh, I can, I know what that filter is. I can grab that filter for

you." And then that led to lenses.

So you can see like the trust slowly growing.

So by the end of the night I was doing lens changes, like a 2nd AC.

Then a month later that AC called me and said, "Hey, do

you want this role as a 2nd?"

And so that was one of my first 2nd AC jobs.

And again, it was just me being vocal and, showing my face and showing my

work ethic and enthusiasm and just showing that I genuinely wanted

to be here for the love of it.

So that's my hack for working your way up from student to professional.

Yeah.

And that's such a good point that you're making about the relationship

side of it and the network, right?

Because it's all relationships and your reputation is everything.

Like that's more important to me than my gear, than even my knowledge, my

reputation of being kind and professional and people liking being around me.

And I think when you're asking those questions on set, trying to network

and trying to work your way into this existing community, people

know what you're doing, right?

It's all a game.

We're all trying to do the same thing.

So having a sense of humility, especially when you're now at the bottom of the

totem pole, I just can't emphasize enough.

I think when you are going through school, once you become a senior, you're

at the top of the totem pole, you're at the top of the game, you're about

to graduate into the industry, you're trying to work more professionally, and

now you've graduated and you're hitting the ground running, and bam, you're

at the bottom of the totem pole again.

And you just have to have that sense of humility and be open to learning,

be open to making connections, and people will want to be around you

and give you those opportunities.

But don't pretend to know it all.

And like you said, building that trust.

I don't care, as a 1st, if you tell me you know how to do a lens swap.

I have never worked with you before and I am not going to trust you with this glass.

If you offer as a PA to go run and grab me a battery, let's work our way from there.

Like, yes, I would love that help.

It's not that I don't want the help, but it's that I am responsible

all of this expensive gear.

I'm responsible for the DP.

If something happens, it's not coming back on you.

Well, it is probably coming back on you, but it's also coming back on me, right?

And so to have that trust in someone is so important.

And it starts by just having that sense of humility and being open to learning.

Yeah.

So you talked a moment ago about going from a full-time

position working at Keslow, to entering the freelance industry.

I've had some contract positions, but I've never had a full-time job in the industry.

I've always just been freelance.

And for me, what I love about freelance is I love my work being

challenging and different every time.

I love the variety of projects I work on and I also value my free time.

But obviously there's not a lot of stability, you have to be comfortable

not getting a consistent paycheck.

You have to be comfortable not necessarily knowing when the work is gonna come in.

And you also have to be comfortable relying on others to remember you

and give you those opportunities and hopefully you'll give opportunities back.

But how do you break down what you value in choosing to be a freelancer?

Gotta be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

I mean, one thing that's nice is you create your own schedule.

Especially when it's really, really busy.

lately that's been kind of rare.

But, having the opportunity and the power to be selective about what

production you work on is, again, such an empowering feeling, because that's kind

of difficult to do with a nine to five.

You don't really have a choice, so that's sort of a phenomenal

side of being freelance.

But of course freelance has some very challenging sides too, 'cause

it can be very feast or famine.

And that's why it's, really important that you're diligent.

And again, always showing your face, always putting your best foot forward

on set and, doing the best job.

You're only as good as your last job.

And so, that's really important with freelance work.

And then with freelance work also, you are your own brand.

You are your own business.

And so you have to be cognizant of that as well as in the way you represent

yourself, and the way you communicate with others and talk to others again,

especially in a tight knit city.

Word will get around.

Fast.

Like lightning.

We

are working 12 plus hour days a lot of the time.

You gotta learn how to be uncomfortable and still be

polite and professional and kind.

Absolutely.

And still again, put your best work in.

Yeah, if you're not passionate about this, don't do it.

And that's okay too.

I mean, if you value other things more, like a consistent paycheck or

something, I have plenty of friends who have no interest in freelancing

and they work in the industry and they're happy, and that's fine.

It's not for everyone.

It just totally depends on what you wanna do.

A hundred percent.

Especially things like post-production houses, there are a lot of ways

to still be involved in the film industry without being freelance.

But again, yeah, if you're going the freelance route, consider

yourself an entrepreneur.

It may not seem like it, but you are marketing yourself, you

are doing administrative work.

You are constantly networking and you are constantly working at making your

own paychecks and keeping business coming into your metaphorical door.

So yeah, it's definitely challenging but rewarding.

I think the Chicago market is great because there's a great mix of things.

There's a lot of opportunities for freelancers, there's a lot

of opportunities for full-time people when the market is good.

There's also a big mix of union and non-union productions.

All of the TV shows are union.

So you can choose what path you wanna pursue.

Yeah.

It is a mixed bag here.

Hey, it's Randy.

We're taking a short break to tell you about the Morse-Cuppy

Film, Video, and Animation Study Abroad Endowed Scholarship.

The scholarship was established by Bill Cuppy with support from Deanna Morse to

help film, video, and animation students with the cost of studying abroad.

Alumnus Bill Cuppy talks about why he started the scholarship.

We created this scholarship because experiencing the world and other

cultures has been life-changing for us and we wanted students to

have a similar experience during this pivotal time in their lives.

Caroline Hamilton, the 2024 recipient of that scholarship, describes the

benefits of the support she received.

I'm a film video major and I have a German minor.

I've been studying German for about eight years now, and so I decided to

study abroad this past summer in Germany.

It definitely challenged me as a person.

I had to figure out how to do things and communicate and just

put me outta my comfort zone.

It introduces you to new things that you'd be afraid to experience because

you don't wanna embarrass yourself, but you have to just go for it.

The scholarship itself, just the almost permission to be

like, yes, go experience this.

Go learn, go see what happens, how this changes, how you see the world

and how you approach your work.

It took the pressure off of me a little bit to just be like, I can

experience this and not have to worry about everything else going on.

I can just go enjoy my time there and see what I can learn and grow from.

For more information, and to donate to the scholarship, visit

the link in the description.

Now back to the show.

I am not union.

I am comfortable being not union for now as long as it's not hurting me

and I kind of wanna explore that path.

Are you union?

Currently, as of today, yes, I am in good standing, Local 600 member.

Do you want to talk a little bit about what that means?

Yeah, sure.

So essentially like any other union, unions are formed to protect the workers.

When you're in an environment where you're working 14, 16 hour days on

multimillion dollar budgets, it can become very easy to be exploitive, right?

And so, unions step in to be your representative and they negotiate

your contracts and they help dictate firmly what is and is not okay on set.

And they fight for your rights.

They fight for your wellbeing.

And yeah, they're sort of the first line of defense when it comes to

making sure all the regulations and contractual agreements and payments,

like how you're getting paid, is fair.

And so you have Local 476, and then you have 600 and you have all these

unions in production that protect you.

And that's essentially more or less what a union is.

And the unions are broken down typically by department.

So the 476 is

476 is pretty broad, but yeah, it's G & E, I think it's

like, hair and makeup as well.

I did not know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Same union.

All right.

And then your Local 600 is your camera team.

That is the IATSE Cinematographer's Guild.

So each region in the nation have local union reps, and they'd be

the first line of contact if you're interested in joining the union,

there's an office right here in Chicago.

So yeah, you would call the office and then you would inquire on what's

required to get into the union.

And then again, network, network, network, network, network.

'cause you for sure have to know some Local 600 folks to

get your foot in the door.

so something I would consider a million dollar question is does the gear matter?

As a DP does what gear you own or don't own matter, and as an AC does

the gear you own or don't own matter?

Hmm.

As the camera nerds lean in and turn up the podcast, right?

Coming from somebody who owns one of the most expensive cameras

on the market, ironically I say nah, it don't matter as much.

Take it from somebody who used something as simple as a A7S,

all the way up to an ARRI LF.

I think there's far more important things to consider than the digital

sensor that makes an image beautiful.

So for me, I would have to say the gear is not the most important thing to crafting

a beautiful image in cinematography.

What about to getting the jobs?

There is some incentive to being an owner-operator because, like you said,

as budgets decrease, productions are looking for a way to get the best price.

And more times than not, it's not gonna be through a rental house.

It's gonna be through an owner operator that owns cameras, lights, the whole

shebang and cuts the middleman out.

So there is incentive there.

However, it's not a hard fast rule.

I know DPs that are not owner / operators that are doing just fine.

I think the skillset is more important.

You're not gonna win over a great DP if you own a ARRI.

They're not gonna say, "Well, hey, this person owns a

ARRI, so let's go with them."

They're still gonna go with the better DP at the end of the day.

So, it is incentivized and it can win you some jobs, but it's not a

groundbreaking difference where it's like, oh, once you own an ARRI, you're set.

Because I am, I'm doing okay, but I'm not just rolling in job offers due to

owning an ARRI, if I'm being honest.

Yeah, and like you said, people talk and your reputation speaks for itself.

So even if you have the gear, if you don't have the skill set to back it up, people

are gonna figure that out really quickly.

A hundred percent.

And also for me, I don't push my ARRI on people.

I know it's like, oh, but that's a rental for you.

But part of my job as a DP is to understand the parameters of both

the production and the budget.

And let's be real, most people don't have a budget for an ARRI.

And sometimes that money's more valuable in the art department or hair and makeup.

A fun saying that I made up is, if you have an ARRI and you

shoot crap, your final product is gonna be crap in 4K, right?

If you shoot a piece of crap, it's still gonna be a piece of crap.

It's not gonna turn to something, right?

And so, there's so many other components and elements that are important to

telling a story, then just a sensor.

And I try to drive that home.

So if it's lower budget, sometimes a FX3 will get it done, right?

Sometimes, a a Red will get it done, and it'll still look really good.

Why?

Because other elements of the production are equally as important as the sensor.

Yeah, absolutely.

From an AC perspective, I wish I could say that the gear didn't matter,

but I don't think it's everything.

It definitely matters to an extent, it just depends on the

projects you're working on.

Because, do I get jobs because I have gear, because I have a kit,

a focus pulling kit, whatever?

Not necessarily, but it does give me a level of credibility and

I get jobs because I'm familiar with many different kits and

therefore know how to problem solve.

Even if I don't own WCU-4 or something, even if I don't own the newest

piece of equipment, if I'm using it, I'm still familiar with it, right?

Because I've used it on other sets and I'm familiar with the baseline or whatever

you might be talking about, whether it's monitors, FIZ units, lenses, whatever.

I wanted to talk more about renting versus owning as well, because

that's a lot of personal preference.

You're never gonna own every piece of gear that you're ever going to

use, especially not cameras, right?

But not monitors, not lenses, not anything.

And so I really only buy gear when I've been on a few sets that I've consistently

thought to myself, " This would be really helpful to have" and then I

know it's the right purchase, right?

Anything like AKS, little bits and bobs, stuff like that,

to bigger purchases as well.

But I also have to be familiar with a lot of cameras that I don't own, which

is where that rental house relationship I think really comes in handy, because

they know the market better than anyone and they can teach you for free how to

use gear they've acquired that you may need to know to stay current in the market

Yeah, and a lot of people sleep on that.

Please leverage and take advantage of the fact that you can walk into

a rental house and demo an ARRI.

For free.

For the free, free 99.

And they will be more than happy to show you.

They will be thrilled.

They will, yes.

And what's great about Chicago and I feel like almost all the rental houses,

there's usually like a brilliant lens or a prep tech that has extensive

knowledge, just on the camera and lenses.

So it really is the best, most accurate information that you can

receive versus somebody on set.

'Cause a lot of the times on set, we are kind of just

figuring out the gear as we go.

Especially when it comes to things like wireless.

Like sometimes the feed drops and we have to sit there and troubleshoot.

And sometimes we even call the rental house and being like, "Hey,

the feed dropped. How do you fix this?" So you're learning top

tier knowledge at a rental house

for free.

In a safe space, too.

I think a lot of people are very intimidated to admit that

they don't know something.

But the thing is, there's so much gear and it comes out so quickly

and advances so quickly that you're never going to know everything.

And so to have that help and a safe space to learn it, I don't wanna be

learning how to use a camera on set, that's gonna look really bad on me.

Having this resource available to you I think is so important.

And the other thing is if you're going to buy gear, do

not buy cheap gear to start out.

Do your research, save up for industry standard gear.

Otherwise you're just throwing your money away.

A saying that I see thrown around all the time is buy once, cry

once, which I think is so true.

Why get something for a third of the price that's gonna last you a year when, if you

save up for a year, if you save up for two years, it's gonna last you for 10 years.

It's gonna stay relevant that much longer if you really need it.

But it all depends on your circumstance and what you're pursuing and your

career and what position you're in.

Yeah, that definitely makes sense.

Plus, it's an investment, but it seems like the more higher priced

systems, like FIZ systems and monitors in the market, they're very

streamlined and they're very intuitive.

And the manufacturers and the teams behind them are just very familiar

with the filmmaking experience, than third party brands, right?

So that's another thing to note, that a lot of the tools that we use on set,

like the brand sometimes, matters.

Because I think they're the ones that are really listening to the people

who are in the field working on the set and coming up with solutions

for the problems that we face there.

Yeah, that's a great point.

A very simple version of that, it certainly is technology, but it's

not technology like a wireless system would be, is my camera cart.

I have a Camera Jimmy's, which is not a very common cart I will say.

A lot of times you see Yaegers or Innovatives but it's a

cart made by an AC for ACs.

So he knows the market and he knows what we need to do our jobs, and

it was worth every penny and it's gonna last me my entire career.

It was one of my most expensive purchases and I'm so glad I made it.

You do your research and you buy something that you can trust and

that, like you said, listens to the community that it's being built for.

For sure.

We need to talk about demo reels and websites.

How do you showcase your skills to get jobs?

Do you have a demo reel?

Do you have a website as a DP?

I do have both.

And yes, they are very important.

'cause that is going to be the clearest evidence that you know what you're doing.

Some tips for demo reels is ask yourself, what do I want to do?

What do I want to shoot?

What excites me the most?

And then shoot that and put that in the forefront of your demo reel.

Or make it all of your demo reel.

'cause I know a mistake that a lot of beginners do is they just put

everything in the demo reel, right?

They kind of just like, Hey, I need a demo reel.

It needs to be a minute and some change at least.

So let me put this corporate video in here, put this music video in here, put

this passion project in here, and put this event, this birthday party that I shot.

And the client is gonna see that.

Sound like you're speaking from experience.

Oh, well, yeah, I might have known somebody who known somebody who did that.

But yeah, that's very confusing for a client.

Not only that, when you put something in your reel that doesn't resonate

with what you wanna do, you run the risk of getting pigeonholed.

If you have a reel full of music videos and you can't stand doing music

videos, guess who's gonna contact you?

People doing music videos.

So you're putting yourself in this vicious cycle.

And now I understand that the next question is, well what if

all I have is music videos and I wanna shoot a drama narrative?

That's where spec pieces come into play and you have to just shoot it yourself.

And I understand there's concerns about money.

I understand there's concerns about, where do I find the

resource to shoot a spec piece?

And I would say, don't overcomplicate it.

You're not shooting a movie, you're shooting a few shots.

You just gotta make those few shots look really good, right?

So put a few hundred dollars to the side, borrow clothes from a friend,

have your friends come over and it's like, just spend a day shooting a spec

and make it moody and make it look like the projects that you wanna work on.

Because if you can do it on a spec, you can do it on a real set.

So it's important to really align yourself and be intentional about what

you include in that demo reel, and then put it out there in the world.

Yeah, I would totally agree.

And I love what you said about not being pigeonholed.

I think that is a real concern for a lot of people.

A little bit different, being an AC, I do not have a AC demo reel.

I do not have an AC website.

that's where my reputation becomes even more important because I have

a gig sheet where I list all of my gigs from recent years and I have the

DPs listed of all of those and what kind of projects they were and stuff.

And if people want to hire me, I send them that gig sheet and I send

them people they can contact to find out if they wanna work with me.

And so reputation means everything, but reputation means everything for

someone who has a demo reel as well.

Because like you said, if, your work is, great, but you're horrible

to work with, no one's going to

wanna hire you.

A hundred percent.

Yeah, that definitely does circle back to word of mouth and having good character.

'cause you're right, that does play a role.

if you're not pleasant to work with, that could be the difference between

you getting in and not getting the job, regardless of your demo reel.

And again, especially if you're in a tight-knit community city

like Chicago, people know people.

Oh, people know people.

Trust me.

I have some stories.

We touched a little bit about this, but what are some of your

challenges and also joys, in this department, in this industry?

I've always said that I have some of the highest of highs and lowest

of lows in this career path, but the highs definitely outweigh the

lows, and that's why I keep at it.

Yeah, I mean, the pros and cons list, the pros is still a little longer.

Some of the joys, honestly, I'd have to say I really appreciate the camaraderie

of being in the film industry.

Yeah, they're your coworkers, but one thing leads to another and

they end up being your friends.

I was involved in a bowling league with a Steadicam Operator,, a first AC and a DIT.

What is up with these bowling leagues?

it's not a game.

I keep Hearing about these freelancer film department bowling leagues.

I was on a music video and she was like, " Yeah, I'm a sub for

this bowling league tonight.

Like I have a hard out at seven.

I'm on an email list.

Are you on this email list?" And I was like, what are you doing right now?

That's so funny.

Yeah, Jordan, you gotta get in tune.

You gotta join a league.

I think this is a networking opportunity of a lifetime to get

involved in this bowling league.

They bowl right up the street from me, so I should get on this.

Yeah, the camaraderie is definitely a huge, huge factor.

yeah, like you said, the good projects outweigh the bad, but

learning how to problem solve and weather a storm without burning

bridges is a really important skill.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And building that trust.

That synergy, I think is a big thing, too.

When I start to, consistently hire the same crew, because again, we have that

trust and that strong communication.

Like one of my favorite things that one of my Gaffers said, Katie, I'll

start to explain something and she'll be like, "Yeah, I know what you want.

Don't worry about it. I got you." And to have that trust and to have that thing

taken off my plate is a beautiful thing.

And again, it's rooted in that trust, that camaraderie.

I guess the other thing is saying you did the thing, honestly,

finally sitting in that theater and seeing your work on a large screen,

is a great high of filmmaking.

Seeing the long hours, the long nights and the blood, sweat, and tears turn

into a story where people can feel something and experience something,

that is something to be proud of.

'Cause it's not easy.

And to say that you spearheaded or you were a vital role?

One thing I will say, we didn't touch on it, I think that's what I appreciate about

independent films more than big budget productions, is your role matters a bit

more in independent films, I think you feel more valued on an independent film.

And that element tends to be missing in larger productions.

'cause you feel more like a cog in a machine sometimes when the crew is

like, really huge, and you're just there to do a very, very specific role.

But when you're on an independent film and you're wearing many hats and you're

putting your heads together and you're coming up with ideas on the fly, it really

is a cool experience and a way to get closer to a bunch of other creatives.

Yeah.

And when you achieve that shot that everyone had to be on point

for, focus had to be on point, the operating had to be on point.

The actor had to hit their mark, G & E had to move that light at the right

time, art had to have some visual effect happen, everything happens correctly.

Oh, there's nothing like it.

Everyone was at the top of their game right then and there,

it's an incredible feeling.

For sure.

And then you yell cut and you're high fiving people and

hugging people and clapping.

'cause that was a really hard shot and y'all all came together to do it.

Yeah.

And then you get to see it on the big screen and yeah, there's nothing like it.

The highs are high.

Can you talk about your best experience?

So this is an interesting one.

So I work with a director named Kelly Allison.

Shout out to her, and her productions.

She works in tabletop, but she also does some lifestyle, so she'll bring

me on board if it's a lifestyle shoot.

In her productions, she is very intentional about it being femme

forward, like women are the head of departments on her productions.

And she does that very intentionally and it is a different experience.

Hopefully that encourages more women to learn the craft and

to be part of this industry.

Because working on her sets, it's a very nurturing feeling

on there, you feel nurtured.

For me, I get the best worlds 'cause commercials pay well, but

independent films you feel more valued.

So it's kind of like a fusion, 'cause it's a commercial, but you still get

that feeling of feeling important, feeling supported, and I wish we

had a little bit more of that in the industry, because it's rare.

'Cause it's still a very, very male dominated industry.

And so I would say some of my best experiences were on her sets because

I always walk away feeling that.

And I think that's really important.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is great 'cause we didn't touch on being women in the industry.

I think some of my best experiences have been on women-led sets.

You're so right.

And they're unfortunately few and far between right now, but I think

that's changing, slowly but surely.

And looking out for one another is so important in general, but also as women

because it is a tough field and it's a tough male-dominated field and I have

never been more respected on set than when I'm working with other women.

I get a lot 'cause my, name is fairly gender neutral, but it's also

spelled traditionally masculine.

And so I get a lot of the time if I'm being hired by someone new who

got me as a recommendation from someone, or I applied to a job, I

show up on set and they're like, " I thought you were gonna be a boy."

And the tone shifts a little bit, you know?

So you have to prove yourself a little bit more as a woman.

And I just don't feel that happening as much when I'm working with

other women or nearly at all.

I know you like if I had a dollar for every time somebody thought I was a guy.

It's weird too.

Don't know why that's pertinent and why you're telling me that you assumed I was

gonna be like, that's an inside thought.

Yeah, I'm always gonna say that, that it's important for us to be

in the industry, and important for us to tell our own stories through

the lens of our own experiences.

I often have students or younger people ask to hop on a call with me,

and if it's in my power, I always say yes, and I'm always a open book.

I'm always willing to share what I learned from the craft with others because, again,

who better to tell your story than you?

I can't tell your story the way you can tell your story.

So I'm always sharing and posting light setups and how I achieved a certain look

in hopes that other women, now I do have a lot of male followers for whatever reason,

but I'm trying to talk to the women of the industry and try to be that, that

pseudo mentor that I never had coming up.

'cause I had to bump my head and learn how to do this because it's hard

for people to take you under their wing when you don't look like them.

And as a black woman in the industry, there's not a lot of people that

look like me, so it's really hard to find mentorship coming up.

So, yeah, I think again, it's always important.

Yeah.

Wanting to extend that to the next generation.

That's great.

What is an experience you had at Grand Valley that shaped you or your career?

Was it a class?

Was it a project?

Ooh, let me think.

Let me think.

Let me think.

That shaped me or my career.

Do you want me to go first?

Sure.

You can go first.

So an experience that really helped shape me at GV was working at the Promotions

Office, because having those experiences outside the classroom introduced me to

parts of the industry that at the time I didn't know about, and therefore I

didn't even realize I was missing out on.

'cause you don't know what you don't know.

Things like gear or client relations or more specific

roles on set, things like that.

So that just really helped open my eyes to the possibilities of what set life

could be and what being a freelancer and your own business could be.

I think what's nice about the film and video program at Grand Valley

is, and some people might view it as like tip of the iceberg, like you

familiarize yourself with all the different avenues of filmmaking, right?

So it's editing, animation, producing, screenwriting.

I took screenwriting courses.

But I think that's really important because it makes you well-rounded.

And I think I got pretty deeply immersed in the editing courses at Grand Valley

and to this day, that is a skillset.

I just don't promote it, but I have now because of those classes and because

of my knowledge of editing, which started at Grand Valley, I have what

I call editing spidey senses, right?

And these senses start to tingle when I know something's not gonna cut right

in post or it's not gonna feel right.

And it dictates the way I shoot, I compose.

It makes me that much more cognizant of the 180 rule.

If there isn't a shot on the shot list that the director has,

my spidey senses will go off.

And sometimes I'll call an audible and I'll quickly compose a shot and

I'll look at the director and I'm say, "You're gonna need this shot. I promise

you. Let me shoot this for you real quick." And it really started at Grand

Valley because a lot of programs when you're in cinematography now, you're

learning just about cinematography.

But I have done audio production at Grand Valley, so that's another

thing about how imperative audio is.

I think it's important, even if you're not in school, I think it's important

to just dabble in other departments.

I went to an AD bootcamp knowing damn well I'm not ever ADing in my life,

but I went to that bootcamp and I took that class because it gave me a better

understanding of what the AD does and how to better communicate with the AD.

And so that is my experience with Grand Valley, it really set the foundation

for me to be a strong communicator and for me to be knowledgeable about all

departments from production to post.

Yeah, that's a great point.

And I think it's across departments too, not just in the camera department

that being involved in multiple aspects of production, even if

you're ultimately going to emphasize in something can only help you.

I can think of one example of, if you're gonna go into sound, if you're

gonna be a mixer or boom operator, understanding lenses to an extent of

as a sound mixer or a boom operator having a basic understanding of lenses.

Oh, we're on the 24 we're wider?

Okay, I probably need to be further away from the frame then, things like that

across departments are just so important and it can only help you, like you said.

What order should you shoot your shots in?

Well, I bet your AD bootcamp helped with that.

Yeah, a hundred percent, yes.

What is your advice for people who want to pursue work in the camera department?

It depends on what role, but again, use your resources that you have.

Don't get intimidated by all the big cameras.

Use what you have readily available for you.

So that ties into the rental house thing.

That is free demo.

It ties into if you are a student.

One thing that I wish I would've done while I was at Grand Valley was use

the available and free resources, don't wait for a homework assignment to go

to the cage or the rental facility at the university and rent cameras.

Check one out for the weekend, learn it, shoot some miscellaneous

stuff and create something.

' cause that's so important, and once you graduate, spoiler alert,

it is not gonna be free no more.

Yeah, to use this stuff in the rental house is free, but you can't take it out.

You can't go and shoot something with it for free.

That's such a blessing to have as a student.

Big time.

And then you are surrounded by other peers that are readily available and

ready to learn, too, and work with you.

You're just immersed and surrounded in resources at a university,

and I wish, I would've leveraged that a bit more I was there.

Yeah.

I think you don't know what you don't know, and so you have to be hungry

and open to learning to stay on top of the industry, and never assume you

know everything, because that will be the biggest turnoff to others.

Learn as much as you can, but always assume that there's more to learn.

Your reputation is everything, so protect it, be humble, be kind, be professional.

I think that's my biggest takeaway.

Yeah.

Sounds good to me.

That makes sense.

I also wanted to plug for anyone who's interested in, being a

Camera Assistant, The Camera Assistant's manual by David Elkins.

I recommend this to everyone who wants to get into camera, even if you wanna be a

DP, it breaks down every single part of the camera department: gear, roles, it

tells you how to keep camera logs, like it gets so specific and they keep it updated.

I have the seventh edition, I think there's new editions out even now.

It goes into both film and digital, so it keeps up with the gear as well.

It tells you on-set dynamics, paperwork.

I still use it to this day as a reference, so I wanted to plug that as well.

Thank you so much for your honesty and your time and talking with me today.

Yeah.

Thanks so much for having me.

This was a really awesome talk.

And thank you, for listening to another episode of Alumni Live: The

Podcast and we'll see you next time.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.

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