Blake Hunsley 0:00
Hello and Welcome to Season Two of within our reach, a podcast all about accessibility, inclusion and leveling the playing field at work and in our community. I'm Blake Hunsley, and I'm joined by my co host, Shelley Alward MacLeod. And our guests today are Janet Barlow, Executive Director of hike Nova Scotia, and advocate activist for Halifax, blind and partially sighted population and reachability, board member and growing friend of the show and frequent collaborator Milena Khazanavicius, just thank you both for joining us today. Hello, hello. So talking about hike Nova Scotia today, so I figured Janet, if it's okay, we'll start with you. I would love it if you could tell our listeners a little about hike Nova Scotia, kind of how it got started, and a little bit of the history, if you would.

Janet Barlow 0:39
Yeah, sure. So hike Nova Scotia is a nonprofit, and it's been around for about 20 years, and we just promote hiking, walking and snowshoeing, and do a bunch of programming just to support people to get out there and do that. We also support trail builders, because they're the folks that create a lot of these beautiful trails out there. And so, yeah, we do things like seasonal guided hike series. We've got the hiker challenge, where you can earn badges for hiking in certain areas of the province or certain distances. We offer courses and webinars on hiking related topics. We have the trail builders network. We've got our NS walks, weekly walking program. So that's for folks that are a little less active, maybe not hardcore hikers. I haven't heard of this. I'd love to hear a little Yeah, yeah. So that's that's sort of catering to folks who just want to get out more but, but maybe they're not, you know, ready to go on a wilderness trail. And so NS walks is a great program, very accessible, and and it's one of our biggest programs across province. And so, yeah, that's just a snapshot of what we do.

Blake Hunsley 1:47
Yeah, okay, now speaking about in particular, about the accessible sort of elements, because Milena, we have you here because we're talking about the about guided hikes in particular as well. I've had the pleasure of going on one with you. You're very fast through some rough terrain. I was very impressed. But what sort of first, before we get into your thoughts on it? Milena Janet, what? What accessible measures do you have going on at hike? Nova Scotia, right now, is it just the guided hikes, or are there other things that you're doing as well, right?

Janet Barlow 2:15
Well we do well with NS walks. Those are sort of gentle, easy, guided regular walks, usually on the same route, and the route has been assessed for accessible features, or, you know, as an accessible route, so that people of all abilities, if they want to join that particular walking group, then they can then, then they'll know that it's a route that they can handle. And we do have very folks of all kinds of abilities, people who are blind or partially sighted, people who use mobility devices, or people who, you know, do have a harder time getting around, but they still come out and they're, they're part of these walking groups. So we have that that's, that's one of our biggest offerings. We do for our courses and paid events. We do offer subsidies to folks who are from equity seeking groups. So if they want to come out and try some of the, you know, the courses or the webinars or other workshops, then we have that available. We have thanks to Milena just started offering in the last year our hiking buddies workshop, which is all about teaching hikers how to assist blind and partially sighted hikers on the trail to help them just get out. And then a spin off of that was the escape to the trails event that happened in November. And so that was a guided hike, using some of the the trained hiking buddies, and taking a bunch of folks who were blind and partially sighted out to coal Harbor, to the coal harbor Heritage Park, and did a day of hiking there and then so spinning off further from that, we just got News that we have funding now. Congratulations. Funding for a hiking club for the blind and partially sighted. So over the coming year, we'll offer probably about eight different trips where we have funding, really importantly for a bus, because transportation yes is often the a stumbling block, right? That is a huge barrier for a lot of folks who are blind or partially sighted, and so we have funding to bus people to various trails around HRM and maybe outside of

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 4:29
HRM as well. Fantastic. Nice. So that's very, very interesting. I didn't know that you did some of the like the Nova Scotia walks like the trail. I love that for people of all levels like me, like, right? So I'd be like, crawling along.

Milena Khazanavicius 4:45
So crawlers are welcome.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 4:48
I heard it here, right? So, Milena, you know, talking about, you know, these hikes that you've been doing for, you know, the blind or partially excited, what's. Been your experience with with this hiking and how, how has that helped you?

Milena Khazanavicius 5:08
Well, it's been horrible. I'm kidding, because I get lost with my very dear good friend Janet, trying to assess some trails, you know, to where we're gonna go with blind and partially sighted individuals? No, it's been, it's been great, and it's something that it's it's been in my head, I don't know, for years, because, you know, I grew up mostly in Alberta, lost my sight in Nova Scotia, but I've been back and forth out west, where there's a lot of activities and and adventures offered for people who are blind and partially sighted and other abilities slash disabilities. And we Nova Scotia doesn't have too much of that, especially on the blind and partially sighted side. And I was getting quite frustrated. So I was a year and a half ago, somewhere back in the winter, through connections, I met up with Janet and at a coffee shop that's right around the corner where we found out we've been living on the same block for the past 12 years together, and I have to sit on the side. Janet's like, I've never seen you. And I'm like, I've never seen you.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 6:19
Thank you for not doing disappointing. Milena I knew you were gonna say that

Milena Khazanavicius 6:30
we're literally, like, two blocks away from one another anyway, so you know, like, let's give this a go, and and, and so here we are. And I, you know, I have to say, yes, the idea was mine. But all the all the grant writing and the numerous amounts of time and effort and just to organizing has been Janet all the way through, I feel like I'm gonna cry here. And, you know, it's been a process. So, so, yeah, so we had our we've trained well. We had two training sessions that I led to train people who are already hikers, who know how to hike and on how to guide someone who's blind or partially sighted. And we took them, we took them into two different trails and had them under blindfold. And people, you know, people like, oh, wow, it's kind of hard when you're under blindfold. I'm like, yeah, no dog poo (laughter)

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 7:23
How many minutes in like,

Milena Khazanavicius 7:35
so, you know, and, and, and I'll throw this in very quickly. You know, there is a certain a percentage of people who are blind or partially sighted and who are really against having sighted people go under blindfold because, because their thought, and this is what I've experienced in 30 years of being completely blind, is that it doesn't equate to what we are living through, and, yes, 100,000% but it gives a person who sighted an idea of what we may be challenging and forget. So to me, it's worth every single moment that any sighted person I can put under blindfold for whatever situation, particularly for hiking. It's, you know, they're not living it. They're not gonna but it gives them an idea. And I think it wakes sighted people up a little bit more. Wow. You know, it's, it's speaking of hiking. It's hard enough, when you're sighted, to get up and down this rock or around the bend or a big branch that's, you know, at your nose level. By the way, I've been hit by a couple of times with some hikers. I don't know what you're talking, right? And so that's an important training for me, as far as I'm concerned. And, you know, I'm one of whatever 53,000 in Nova Scotia who are blind and partially sighted. So, so we did the training. What? How many do we How many will be training? Jen, and we

Janet Barlow 8:58
probably about, I don't know, 15 or so, 18, something, one of those lines,

Milena Khazanavicius 9:03
yeah, so, you know. So we have already 18. Hopefully this year we'll look at we'll have another couple more sessions, and then when we did our escape to the trails, because of last year and the fire and everything that we had and banned so that. So we finally got out in November, we lucked out on a wonderful, cool day with sun, and I do have to put this in, in the Cole Harbor Heritage Park. And I think we are all here the same. And take no offense, whoever is listening. The history of coal harbor. There were people that inhabited that that were, quote, unquote, from the 17, 1800s harmlessly insane. So now Janet and I walk around calling ourselves the harmlessly insane.

Blake Hunsley 9:46
The harmlessly part might be over exaggeration, but if

Milena Khazanavicius 9:53
you go onto that Cold Harbor Heritage Trail, the wording is there from that day, and you know it really i. I'm smiling here because I quite like it.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 10:02
Well, that's an encouragement for those people who are listening to now hike there so they can actually see that wording and have the same chuckle That like you've had,

Blake Hunsley 10:13
not only that, if they're expecting training to be a very dour, serious experience. Now for folks that haven't been through this training, or haven't been on a guided walk. What does the training entail, aside from the simple blindfolding,

Milena Khazanavicius 10:27
well, it's mostly, I insist that it is one of my criteria. I haven't done many presentations in different areas that we go through a questionnaire. There's eight questions. It's basically to break some myths and misunderstandings. Or, you know, oh my god, blind people here. So much better. Because, did you hear that? Because I didn't Right. And, and it's things like that. And, and it's just to give some statistics, as I threw out already, you know, 52 53,000 in the province of Nova Scotia, 1.6 million who are identifying as blind or partially sighted across the country. It's that kind of stuff and and just, it's an educational part. So as we're walking, you know, we're doing this questionnaire, people are guiding one another, and then they switch off, and the sighted get to go blind, and the blind get to see, and then we're up and down the trails and and we've had, we've had, you know, we've had extremely positive evaluations at the end of it, we always end up running over time, and that's because people have questions that are, you know, just They're popping out of everywhere. And I think when we when we do this in groups, that it permits the people to feel more comfortable when they're being there. Oh, yeah, here's another person who knows nothing about what it's like to be blind or partially sighted, and that opens something up when you're in person, rather than just online, to ask those questions, because you feel the person's energy and relax and, you know, and so, yeah, it's educational. It's it's adventure. Thus far, we've not harmed anyone. Quick question too is,

Blake Hunsley 12:14
what goes into how do you make the choice of what trails to go on when you're doing one of these blind and partially sighted guided trips. Because, I admit, I was quite surprised the trail we did. We went to Hemlock ravine Park. I think it was and not a hard trail by any stretch. Not an easy trail when you're when you're guiding somebody, necessarily. So what does go into what kind of criteria do you decide on, what trails to do for these events?

Milena Khazanavicius 12:37
Well, I'll let Janet come up with that, because the trail that Blake you and I were on was actually for, that's for a pride hike. It was for, it was a pride hike. So, so that was actually not for blind and partially sighted, but because you and I, are you occupying all of my attention. So, you know, so, so so that we so I lucked out that you came along and and, and, you know, you and I hang out and Shelly, by the way, he did a great job. Did he? No one fell off cliffs? He was very sweaty. I'm very sweaty

Blake Hunsley 13:15
now, okay, it's warm in here.

Milena Khazanavicius 13:18
So, so that, you know, and because you and I have been speaking to Blake here, right, that we walked together before, and so that that wasn't actually a blind approach, he said that was a pride hike, which, which, oh, my god. How many people were there?

Janet Barlow 13:32
It was fantastic for 50 people, almost 60.

Milena Khazanavicius 13:35
Yeah, yeah. And dogs, and, oh, and then there was treats. So there's always some sort of treat with hiking, Nova Scotia, yeah, at the end of a hike, yeah, I shouldn't say that, right? It's all about the treats, yeah?

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 13:49
So because so then, obviously, Hemlock ravine was not, is not currently designated like, as one of the it could be, it could be okay. But what goes into your, you know, determining like, because you said you picked coal harbor Heritage Park was one of the ones that you're doing. So what made you choose that?

Milena Khazanavicius 14:07
Well, we, we went. I, for me, it was on the criteria, because I wasn't sure who was going to sign up, and you know who was, who's going to participate. And we wanted to start out with an accessible trail that not all, not only, okay, so Hemlock ravine has footpaths, rocks, you know, quite significant downhills and some water and stuff like that. Where the Cole Harbor, it's a flat, was it crushed gravel? Is that what we call Crusher dust? Crusher dust, yeah, you know, majority of it, you could, you know, somebody with the wheelchair would be able to to to traverse on. So we wanted to start out that way, just to see how people felt. Because, because, you know, when you can't see 100% it can be very nerve wracking. And I. I'll just throw this aside. So Janet and I just returned about a month ago from cross country skiing in Alberta with sight for light. And I was freaking out in my mind because I wasn't sure of the trails. But once we, you know, did did it, once it was they were solid level trails. It wasn't downhill or anything like that. And so we wanted to start with something easy. This year, we'll ask the participants what they want. I'm hoping some of the answers will be, let's work it up to the end so that we're climbing. I don't know what's our biggest mountain, Nova Scotia. It's not Whistler.

Janet Barlow 15:39
I don't know. Yeah, no, there's some challenging hikes, like the bluff trail in Timberlea. That would be a challenging hike, but I think we could work up to it, but, but there are two things going on here. So there's, there's choosing a trail for the hiking buddies training, and then choosing a trail for folks who are blind and partially sighted. Yes, and so we always scout out before a workshop or before an event, what a trail would be and for for folks who are getting the training, you want to have a trail that is sort of wide and flat, maybe Crusher dust rather, but also has the option for a rougher, foot, narrow foot path, because you at the beginning of the training, you just want them getting used to the mechanics of leading someone down a very easy, basic trail. So they get that down, and then once they have that down, then we throw in the more complicated aspect of going down a rough foot path. And so how do you how do you do that? Well, you're going to go one behind the other, and you're going to use this, you're going to use that technique. And so it's for the hiking buddy's training. It's, it's making sure you have a few different types of trail so that the hiking buddy can experience that. And then for, yeah, for the the actual guided events for folks who are blind and partially sighted at the beginning. So this hiking club that's new. Milena and I were talking fairly recently about, okay, so we should probably start off on some easier trails, but because we want a lot of the same people to be coming back and coming to multiple events, we want to increase the difficulty level, or the challenge level, over time, and sort of work them from going from easy to more difficult. And I think they'll be up for it. I mean, you know, like, some of these trails are, are difficult, but they're, they're gorgeous, and they have, like, these beautiful smells and sounds and and, you know, you don't just want to be on like Rail Trail. Rail Trail is wonderful. It's wide and flat and easy, but you have have limited exposure to different sensory experiences nature.

Milena Khazanavicius 17:55
Make out the trees like, you know, rub yourself well.

Blake Hunsley 17:55
This is something, not the rubbing yourself part necessarily, this is something you want to talk about. Yeah, after the last episode, we should have learned our lessons here. But so I know a lot of people, myself included, when we think about hiking in Nova Scotia, we think of picking the most beautiful place with the most beautiful views. So Milena, I'm very curious, because Janet, you talked a bit about the different sensory inputs. Milena, what is the sensory input like on a hike for you? Because I've heard you talk about how much you enjoy hiking before and how much you get out of it. So I for people who haven't had the pleasure of sitting and hearing you talking about this, what, what is it you enjoy? What are the sensory inputs that you enjoy the most out of hiking? Oh, well,

Milena Khazanavicius 18:38
okay, and so, you know, because, because I'm one of the numbers. I've, I've, I've listed before who, and I'm completely blind. So for me, I've always been outdoorsy, right nature. My parents, my parents, who were very young when they had me, would drag me out back home in Europe and Lithuania camping from, like, the moment I can remember, to the point where, like, I was four, and I was and I got myself into this blow up boat. Well, I don't know my parents were doing, partying somewhere in the campground, and I got into the river and started to float away and scream. Thank God for my father saving me, right? But what a time I had like so, you know, for me, it is, it is my form of mental health. You know, it's, it's, it's great to, you know, Janet and I do some speed walking once a week as well, except for now with the winter but, but my brain just, I just can't relax, especially with the world and how it's all going now and traffic and noise and pollution and so for me, and me alone, when I'm out there, it's that whole adventure. Can I do this? This is a challenge. Oh, my God, you know, what am I going to scratch? I hope I don't break a leg, whatever, so on and so forth. And it's just um, you know, and I pick up on things that some people, especially for some whoever's. Guiding me, because, you know, let's, let's be honest here. It's hard to guide a person, right? Janet, it can

Janet Barlow 20:07
be, yeah, you have to really force yourself to be present, like you can't let your mind wander, like when you're hiking alone, you can kind of let your mind wander a little bit, but I can't, I can't do that as much I do sometimes.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 20:22
You may do it once, but molena will put you right back on track.

Milena Khazanavicius 20:26
Well, well, Janet, just on the Cross Country. Her mind wandered about some squirrel and some outhouse and I went

Janet Barlow 20:34
down a hill. She did not crash, though, to her credit, she stayed upright.

Milena Khazanavicius 20:41
So, you know, it's and it's hard as as the guide. So for me, you know, I'm focused on, is this person? Is this person gonna make sure I'm not gonna fall and then once you get into pattern, and you know your guide is good, that's when the accidents happen? No, I'm kidding. I'll just a second. My dog's going crazy.

Blake Hunsley 21:00
Hope is having an absolute Field Day under the table today.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 21:03
Just in case, because you heard some snorting or whatever. That's not Blake. That's hope, yeah.

Milena Khazanavicius 21:11
So you know, and you know, when there were points like, but there I hiked the the, oh, what is that Blomidon, which a friend of mine, I went with this, oh, it's a five kilometer height BS. It was like, what is it? 15 and it was hot, and we ran out of water, and that's literally a one foot path. And there was rocks and everything. And then there were these points where you can go and you can look in and see everything. And I'm like, I don't want to see this. I really don't care. Let's just get back home. Because at that point we were, we were at least almost two hours into the hike, in 30 degree temperature and out of water and being chewed alive by mosquitoes, right? So for me, I was like, I want to go home. I don't want to

Blake Hunsley 21:50
do this anymore. That was not me for the hike, Nova Scotia hike, as I said. And there was plenty of water to drink and more. There were some good snacks at the end.

Milena Khazanavicius 22:01
But, you know, but I but, but, you know, just to answer you finally, because, like, oh yeah, we'll get there, right? It's like, I'm smiling because I'm like, we actually did that. And next time we'll do them, I'm gonna be a little bit more prepared and not believe anything anybody tells me, because nobody seems to know what the real distance is. I want to just go. I want to this is really important to me, because I do want to say, Janet. Janet used the word transportation as a stumbling point. I would, I would venture to say it's more than a stumbling point. That's why I'm so excited that that this grant has come through, and it's not a stumbling point. It's a solid barrier for any person with a disability who cannot drive. And where we are presently, you know, there are no busses, and even if there is a bus that will get you somewhere, that can be like an hour and a half to two hours of traveling on a bus, and then who's going to meet you at the other end, who's going to go with you on a trail you're not familiar with? So transportation is a huge thing for people with all disabilities, I think, who want to be out there, not only for their mental sake, but for their physical sake and for everything. And you know, we're in a province and a precarious situation right now where cuts have been made, left, right and center and and so thank goodness for the, for the hiking goddesses up there. This grant came through.

Janet Barlow 23:36
Yes, the grant came through just before the cuts. Thank goodness.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 23:40
Perfect timing. So you were talking about the the hiking I have a couple of questions. First, I'll ask about the hiking buddy. So if we have listeners that you know are hikers Okay, or have an interest in in in helping others learn to hike. How do you become a hiking buddy?

Janet Barlow 24:04
So we are going to run another session as part of this larger hiking club. So we want to do yet another training so we get even more hiking buddies, because not every person is going to be available for every single hike, so we might have a good pool of people who are trained. And so we will be advertising for for the for the workshop, when we schedule it, likely sometime in June, I'm guessing, May or June. And yeah, they can just, they register. It's free training and and then we keep them on a contact list. And then when we will schedule the various hikes as part of the club, we'll just reach out and say, Hey, who's available? And then, and then Bob's your uncle. Then then we, then we go hiking.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 24:48
Okay, all right, great. And then for Milena, when you were doing this hiking buddy training, I was very interested to hear and. And you said there were a lot of questions and putting them in blindfold, what was, what were some of the biggest things that came from the buddies of their experience doing it, like, what were some of the comments as you were training them?

Milena Khazanavicius 25:14
Oh, well, you know, it's, it's the one thing that is definitely across the board is this is bleep, bleep, hard when they take the blindfold off, right? And it's scary. That's the comments that are coming out of that way. And then the, I think the other comments were more of, I didn't know this. I didn't, you know. I had no idea that, you know, for example, guide dogs do not decide when it is safe to cross the intersection. It is up to the human being to decide. So we talk about that in the training as well. And it's just, you know, it's just everything, everyday questions people are afraid to ask. I think of any person with any disability, and so it's, yeah, it's some it's that kind of common commentary, but, but definitely, it's scary, it's hard. And even even from the people who are guiding when they're doing we're doing the training, the comments there are also that's a lot of brain work, because not only you as a guide or have to, are having to watch your foot right and your footing, and then you kind of watching out for what's happening with the person that's behind you or beside you, or however you choose to do the hike. And there are many different ways to do that. And so your your brain as as a sighted person is on on four to five times more than it would be, because you have to remember, and in this example, Janet hasn't done that. Someone might have gotten a scale, oh, yes, but we had, we had a we had a news media article right on that window, and and who should we say? The name from global, Paul. Paul, Paul. Paul from global. Okay, so he we, so he was guiding me, and this was all being recorded. Oh, and he helped himself. And, you know, he's guiding me. And he moved a pretty significant branch out of the way, ducked under, and it smashed me in the face.

Milena Khazanavicius 27:27
Clearly, he's, you know, because you, you're like, oh, I don't want to be hit by this, but you forget person behind you or beside you, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's stuff like that. Those are the comments that that we get. The last thing I do I want to throw in here, because I'm talking a lot. I and I don't know if you took note of that, but Janet and the night learned something when we were in Alberta. So besides skiing, we went walking on one foot, two foot path in snow that was up to our like hips and I'm five foot nothing. Janet's not much taller, right? And so my foot kept sinking into the snow my either the left or the right, and I'm right up to my knee, and I'm like, Oh my God. And I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore, and because we couldn't figure a way how to do that. And finally, it was, I don't know whether it was you or me or however, I think I just started to hold on to your rear end

Janet Barlow 28:24
back of my jacket. The back of it should be clear,

Milena Khazanavicius 28:28
but what you had this tight jacket on? So that wasn't that easy. And I'm in mittens, you know? And what did you use you put on?

Janet Barlow 28:34
Oh, yes, I had my my cell phone holder for when I go walking or running, and it's like a belt, basically a stretchy belt. So I put that on, on the outside of my jacket, and then she was able to hold on to that was like a handle on my back for her to go right behind me. Yeah, and because

Milena Khazanavicius 28:52
it had that elasticity in it, so I had that, you know, that way to relax my body and not be too close and on Janet's heels. And, I mean, it's things like that that you figure out on the trail together, because that was like, Oh my God, this works perfect, and we're gonna have to buy some of that equipment. Yes, this

Blake Hunsley 29:10
actually leads really well into my next question here, which was primarily for Milena, but really for both of you. And from your experience, from from seeing different guided activities to Janet, what makes you feel safe on a guided hike versus what makes you feel independent on a guided hike? Because I imagine that's a balance, like you were just saying you had some elasticity, so you're not tethered immediately to each other. So what? What does kind of give you a sense of independence on these guided on these guided excursions,

Milena Khazanavicius 29:39
the fact that I'm out there, um, and, and, and that somebody you know is going and without me having to beg or grovel or or or whatever, because that's the other thing that happens with folks with disabilities, is there's a lot of feeling that we're begging and groveling for please have you. Of time, could you? Oh, please, please, please, right, I'm always going to tear up here because that is exhausting and debilitating itself, and people's lives are extremely busy. But you know, so when somebody, somebody says, Here's a program, here's when it's running, you don't have to bake, you don't have to gravel, because it's there. And so, so, so there's that feeling, and then, and then, just finding, finding a way, making decisions together, not, I'll wrap it up with, you know, and then, and then, for, for the people who are guiding their, their blind, partial sighted hikers, that letting them decide how, how, how to want to do it. Because some people may choose who have enough sight to be walking in front of the guide, right with, with walking poles or their cane or whatever, because they want to be ahead and not behind. So, so that's, that's the independence. I mean, really, I don't know if that's just for me. It's, it's, it's, there's a lot to it.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 31:08
Okay, so the in being able to have independence, being able to go on on these hikes. So we did talk about, like, the the buddies and I know Janet, you said you have an upcoming training program. So here's a plug for all those listeners who are interested in taking this training. How do they sign up for this training? Right?

Janet Barlow 31:32
So it'll be online. So we haven't, we haven't scheduled the next training yet, okay, but yeah, just check hike Nova scotia's website or our socials. If you're really into hiking, you can become a member of hike Nova Scotia, and then you get our monthly E News. And then, of course, we would always announce our events in our E News. And so those are ways that you can sign up and make sure you don't miss it. Or if you have interest right now, what you could do is just email us info at hike Nova scotia.ca, and just say, hey, I'm interested. When you have the training ready, let me know, and I'll put you on my list, and away

Milena Khazanavicius 32:09
we go. Perfect. Okay, great, wonderful. Can we throw I do I have to? And maybe Janet, because this is important, because I don't want this to fail, but because of the budget cuts this year, 2026, of february, march hike, Nova Scotia has lost a considerable amount of funding from the province. So anybody who's listening out there who wants to sponsor donor for any of the programs, not only for getting out for physical activity, but for the mental sake of it and being out in nature. And you know, Janet,

Janet Barlow 32:50
yes, we're always looking for sponsors. And of course, becoming a member, it does. There is a cost to that. And so every membership does support hike. Nova Scotia, so yeah, the cuts that came from the province recently have been pretty devastating for nonprofits across the board. Preaching to the choir on that one, yes, and so hike Nova Scotia was badly hit, but not quite as bad as some others. I know for sure. So any support you can give to nonprofits, whichever nonprofit that you support or interact with on a regular basis. It's going to be huge this

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 33:24
year, okay, okay, so outside of, outside of funding, okay, which for nonprofit nonprofits, is critical, okay, and can often be a barrier, right? And beyond hiking, okay? And this is, for either of you, what would be, you know, some of the biggest systemic barriers to outdoor recreation in Nova Scotia.

Milena Khazanavicius 33:48
You want to talk about the newcomers stuff

Janet Barlow 33:51
you do? Yeah, well, I mean, in outdoor recreation, there has been this prevailing feeling that there's a lot of the same people, you know, a lot of a lot of white folk who are have colonial ancestry. And it may not be as welcoming the outdoor recreation kind of sector to the like equity seeking groups. A great example, is newcomers. So what we did this past summer is we partnered with ISANS, so the immigrant services association of Nova Scotia, and we were able again to get funding for a bus, because a lot of those folks may not have access to transportation, right? And so we were able to get a bus, and have we had a nature bus day? And so we were able to get a bus picked up. About over 30 folks took them out to dollar lake. And it was supposed to happen in the summer, but then, with all the wildfire stuff, we had to delay it to mid September, and took them out to mid September to dollar Lake, where they hiked. So. They enjoyed the the playground, because there were a lot of kids there too, and also enjoyed the beach. And so some of them, you know, went swimming, and it was just a gorgeous, gorgeous day, thankfully. And it was a way for them to get out and enjoy and just decompress and and that bus was, was really important to get out there. And so, so folks like that don't have as much access to these natural spaces, or maybe canoeing, or maybe, you know, mountain biking, or whatever it might be. And so, you know organizations like hike ns, and I know there are others. It could be cross country, ski Nova Scotia. It could be cycle Nova Scotia, that do have initiatives to try to get more people who are underrepresented in the outdoor kind of sector, trying to help them get out. And so I think that work is really important, and a lot of it is going on right now, which is great, of course. Is there enough of it, there could always be more. But I am seeing that as a trend across the sector, and so that's a really good thing. Yeah, that that

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 36:08
always makes my heart really happy, that when I see that, not for profits, are working together, like to build community, because there's lots of work to be done out there, and they we don't need to be fighting over who does what work, right? We all have our niche. And I think, you know, when you talked about ISANS hike Nova Scotia, like, that's a that's a great collaboration, right? Like, they have people, you have programs, right? So I do think that, like, I'm a big proponent of that I sit on, I sit on a few boards, and I'm always talking about, why are we doing that? Why isn't XYZ organization doing it? They have the expertise, we have the people, or vice versa, we have the programming. They have the people, so that that makes my heart happy. The other thing, my other question is, what would make Nova Scotia a leader in accessible outdoor recreation,

Milena Khazanavicius 36:33
new government?

Blake Hunsley 36:54
I was waiting for that.

Milena Khazanavicius 37:13
No, no, I, I'm sorry. I, I, and I've been, I've been, I've been talking, you know, with with transport, transportation, transit, etc, etc. You go to Alberta, you go to Ontario, they actually have for $5 you know, $10 throw your whole family on on the beach bus. Okay, okay, so the population's a little bit bigger, whatever the case may be, but there's a huge need here in this province. It's so it's, I can't even begin to state even for myself, me with my guide dog walking around in circles over and over and over in my neighborhood. It's, it's boring, because I feel like I'm stuck on a hamster wheel in my life to try to get things accessible in this province to begin with, and so to be able to get out of that circle, which we need to get on a bus that pay $5 for the day. Get out to, I don't know, Queensland beach, or crystal crescent, or whatever the case. Meet up with a friend out there, right? This, this is what is needed and there. And there's so much bureaucracy, there is so much unwillingness. There's so much in this, in this province, really, I like, I feel like I'm going to explode like a volcano here, that it's possible, it's doable. There's no reason that it cannot be done. People don't want to think above and beyond because, because this is just how it's been, and this is what we're going to do. Oh, it might be too expensive to do. Well, of course, this can be expensive to do, but guaranteed, like you. Janet, you had over 30 people with with newcomers, right? If they had that opportunity to get on a bus to get somewhere else, then they can meet up with, with, with, with other groups and other people and make new friends and make new networks and expand and move forward and grow this province a lot better on the accessibility front

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 39:04
and inclusivity and inclusivity, right? That's yeah, yeah. I think that that I always like to talk about inclusivity, which includes accessibility, like, from my perspective, because inclusivity, to Janet's example of the newcomers, okay, is allowing those members of our community to be included, as opposed to excluded because of transportation needs that could also apply to people who have need accessibility concerns. So I'm hearing and I hear this all over the place. I'm sure it's not new to anybody who's lived in Nova Scotia, or specifically, HRM for more than two minutes transit, transportation, okay, that that's that's an issue for a city that's grown to our size, that we can't get people from one, you know, one part of the side of the city. To the other in a efficient manner for all, all, all members, like, if I wanted, if my car broke down today, and I certainly have the means to, you know, pay for an Uber, right, but if I wanted to take transit, right, it would take me from where I live in Dartmouth, to get to Spry field. Well, I'd have to get on the very first bus that got left in the morning. And it would likely take me an hour and a half to two hours right to get, like, what's 15 minutes or 20 minutes as the crow flies, so that that's, you know, that's prohibiting not just for hike Nova Scotia, not just for accessibility, that's prohibiting people in our community. And I guess I just got on my soapbox, but that's prohibiting time. It wasn't that prohibiting people, and I see it all the time for my clients who post a job, right? And I'm talking about, like, a lot of not for profit organizations, and people who know me knew the, know, the ones that I sit on, we're looking to hire somebody or reach abilities. Case like we have an, you know, an employee or a client who lives in, let's say, Spry field, okay? And the perfect job that meets all of their you know, accessibility, inclusivity, their job skills has been posted, and they cannot get to lower Sackville, okay, in time enough for the start time of the job, right? Like they would like, why should they have to buy a car to get there, right? Like it's not in people's budget. So that's making, you know many things, not inclusive, right? And I think it's making things not inclusive. I know that. You know, Janet, you, you said at hike Nova Scotia, getting ourselves back to hike Nova Scotia. You talked about that you did have some scaled if you will, fee structure to to make it accessible for all, but the person actually has to actually be able to

Janet Barlow 42:12
get to the hike. Yes, yeah. And again, that's, that's that, that huge barrier. So, so the the hiking club and the bus is, is, is a huge plus. I can't I honestly am surprised that that we got the funding, because it is very expensive to hire a bus for one day. It's $1,100 and that's huge. Like that takes up a massive portion of our budget. It's not a it's not a hugely expensive program to run, except for the transportation. It's so prohibitive.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:54
It's prohibitive to it's it's prohibitive to many organizations. So it's why from your both, Janet, you and Milena spoke about how you could support hike Nova Scotia is become a member of hike Nova Scotia right. Become a buddy, a hike buddy, but also become a supporter, like a funding supporter. Become a partner. Become a partner in some way, because out there, the one thing that I have you know seen is that everybody has different passions, right? And this might be an opportunity for you to you know somebody that's listening to share their passion in the form of a donation or an in kind, something and

Blake Hunsley 43:44
advocacy too. I want to throw in there too, because right now a lot of us are sending some feedback to our elected representatives about cuts. But while we're doing that, to milena's point, to get back to transportation again here, because one thing I'm hearing from you and from Shelley is the transit that exists is not great within the city, it can be inaccessible. It can take far too long to get somewhere. But even when that's said and done, you're still getting from point A to point B within the city and the boredom you were talking about, Milena, about being stuck in an urban environment without the option to get outside. And I mean, Janet, I'm sure in your job, you read a lot more studies than I do that tell you over and over and over again about the psychological benefits of getting out in nature, about how calming it can be just to have a tree canopy over you. So I think there's a massive like, not just fairness and accessibility angle here, but just mental health angle let us get out of the city, and it's an intersectional challenge. There's a lot of reasons people can't afford a car, or cannot drive a car, like free, or don't want to drive in? Yeah, you've listened to my road rage sitting in my passenger seat. It's not a fun experience. So no, I would say that would be the other piece of the puzzle is some advocacy for better routes just to get us out of the city as well. We're surrounded by so many trails and so many beautiful beaches we should be able to access them.

Milena Khazanavicius 44:58
I want to throw in. Um, one last that's important in my 30 years of being completely blind and and through presentations. And I used to do a lot of school presentations. One particular year brought me out to the Prestons and north, north, north side of Dartmouth. Okay? And one of the things, which is, which is right across the board, is that African and black Nova Scotians, who were blind and partially sighted, hide it. It's shameful that the stories I heard with the kids that were coming, Oh, Mom, Mom, can't see. Uncle is and they're just sitting home. They're doing nothing. There seems to be amongst certain communities and populations, it's a shameful thing. It still exists in the world, right? Even in my own home birth country, Lithuania, I mean, you're blind, they think you should be institutionalized, right? So the more we have these things, the more that we promote, and the more that we show like, look, there are people who are, you know, Asian or European or whatever. There's no shame in having any disability. It's you just have something that's a little bit maybe slowing you down, or maybe, you know, or not even that wrong term, but whatever the case may be, because there's nothing that actually slows us down. Actually slows us down. It's our environment. And our environment right now is, is, you know, transportational barriers, speaking on the recreational part, but the more people get out there, the more people will see. Hey, there's someone like me, not only because they're blind or partially sighted or they use a wheelchair. But of the ethnicity and cultural, you know, backgrounds, I'm not the only one. And I've seen that happen, that it's just like, I have big smile on my face. I'm like, yes, you're not the only one. It's perfectly fine,

Blake Hunsley 46:56
come out. And if you're sitting around listening to this podcast thinking, Well, you know, I don't have to worry about this, because I have full sight. You have full sight today. It's just, I remind people all the time, advocating for someone with a disability, ultimately, is extremely self serving, because if you live long enough, you're going to have a disability of your own, and it makes that one so advocate for your friends today, because you could be advocating for yourself exactly.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 47:18
And the final closing mark before Blake closes us out, is Milena to your point, and you know, Janet, you know why we love having people on is the purpose of this podcast is to have discussions about, you know, accessibility and inclusion, remove the stigma one and two, okay, talk about what's out there in the community. And Blake and I have met so many people doing these podcasts that are offering certain services, okay, within our community that we had no idea about. And so I think this is really important, like for there could be people who are sitting at home, who are, you know, blind or partially sighted, that have no idea that they have the ability to go hiking, right? So it's why we have these, these conversations. So thank you for coming today. Let me throw in one last thing

Milena Khazanavicius 48:18
you know, and for anybody listening with any disability you want to do something, reach out and go. And I always say, if there's not a chair at the table for you, bring your own and put it right there and make them fit. And you will run into a Janet Barlow with hike Nova Scotia, who will go, Oh, hey, shit, yeah, let's do this. Let's see what we can do of it. Because I've approached many other organizations about many things, and there was a door in my face. But you know, you will run into a Janet Barlow, and things will happen. And for that to you, my friend, turn into Janet. I'm gonna cry again. I am forever, forever grateful.

Janet Barlow 48:55
It goes both ways, because a lot of organizations like hike, Nova Scotia. We're like, yes, we want to do something, but we don't know how. And whenever someone reaches out from one of these communities, we want to involve. My first answer is yes, immediately, yeah. It's not like, oh, well, let's

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 49:13
figure it out. Well, yeah, you know, let me

Janet Barlow 49:15
get back to you, and then you that allows you to go through all the reasons why you can't. Well, if your first answer is yes, let's, let's see how we can do this, then possibilities open up. And so it's just you have to, when you're managing an organization, and these opportunities come up, this was like a blessing for us, because I wouldn't have known how really to reach out and and figure out how to get a hiking club for blind and partially sighted folks going, it was Milena reaching out, and then us having coffee, and then the rest is history. So it's, it's that open mindset when you're in an organization. And a lot of organizations do have people who think. Think that way, but not always. So it's just keeping that open mindset. Well, as

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 50:04
humans, okay, we we all like have some resistance to change, so our first answer is Oh, and we think back. We start immediately, before we say the word yes, we start actually thinking about all the barriers, when, in fact, if you say yes, you're already sending the message. Okay? We we know there's likely some barriers, okay, but now we're both on the same page. Yes, we want to do it, and what are all the things we

Blake Hunsley 50:30
need to do so and most importantly, you're only going to do these sort of things right if you have someone at the table with the lived experience right from the start. So kudos to you for saying yes, kudos to you, Milena, for making the call as well, or for reaching out in the first place too, because both of those components are very needed. You need someone with an organization like hike Nova Scotia, who's willing and Milena, you need someone like you who's got the first world experience, first person experience, and the willingness to talk and educate and haul those of us along with you to until we learn. Damn it. So thank you.

Milena Khazanavicius 51:02
And I even got a bonus, because Janet likes wine and cheese as much as I do.

Blake Hunsley 51:09
think that's the perfect place to end. Thank you everybody for coming today to our listeners. Thank you for listening to within our reach, season two of our podcast is made possible thanks to the support of the Province of Nova Scotia and the support for Culture Program. If you have feedback on an episode or an idea for future episode topics, or if you're interested in appearing as a guest, write to us at within our reach@reachability.org, thanks for listening. Okay, I think we're good. Okay, sorry about that. I don't remember exactly where we were

Milena Khazanavicius 51:42
talking about independence. Oh, yes, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, and it's working as a team, as a partnership, you know. And it's and some people who have like

Blake Hunsley 51:54
partial Milena, I'm not getting any sound from you.

Milena Khazanavicius 51:58
That's not my problem. (Laugher)

Transcribed by https://otter.ai