>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today we're speaking with

Antonia. This is the second part of the

conversation. In the first part, Antonia shared

her experience of healing from childhood abuse

and. And how God showed up in ways she wasn't

expecting. The themes in the last two episodes can

be quite difficult, so please do cheque out the

links in the description. In this episode, she's

reflecting with us on what a truly healing church

could look like. One that acknowledges pain,

creates safety, and walks with survivors.

So, Antonia, you mentioned this idea of being a

missionary and not activist. What does this mean?

>> Antonia: Yes. So I've lost count of how many priests who,

when I actually speak to them in person, say,

you're an activist, but you're so nice. And I

think, on reflection, we've been mislabeled. And

we understand that if someone is scared to talk to

us, they're not going to talk to us. If they think

we're going to bash them, there's no way they're

going to talk to us. And we also know from

practical experience that so many priests have

experienced abuse themselves. Many of them have

told me that even if they haven't experienced

abuse, in childhood or in seminary, that's quite

common. You know, it's the idea that you're going

to talk to someone who, you know, a few weeks ago

might have spat at you down the street and called

you a pedo. Are you really going to want to talk

to somebody who does that? So we want to engage

with people and we want to take a message of hope

and of healing to the church, because there are

people suffering in the church. So it doesn't make

sense for us to be seen as people who carry some

sort of adversarial label with us. So we're

Missionaries. I think that fits much better with

our, with our work.

>> Julia: So I remember many years ago, like we're talking

over a decade, if not 20 years ago, when the first

element of the amount of abuse in the Church

started to come out and talking to a Catholic

priest who had been on a motorway journey and he

had been wearing his dog collar and he, he

realised for the first time that people were

looking at him like, differently because before

that he used to say people used to see him and

look at him with almost like in awe or reverence

that he had chosen this. This is anybody, like in

a sec. In more sec. Not just in the Catholic

Church, but suddenly at that moment on this

particular journey, he realised people were

looking at him in disgust and had brushed him

with, that same tardon, with the same. Then Todd,

him with the same brush. And, and there is a lot

out there about where the Church failed in its

safeguarding. But is there anything positive that

is happening in the Church now? Because we're

obviously in a very different place to where it

was previously.

>> Antonia: So the Church is full of flawed human beings and

just like the rest of society, it's light and

dark. We have much more robust policies, we have

people who take it seriously, we have much more

structured systems. I think that the Church has

travelled a long, long way with policy and

procedure. A lot of people who perhaps before were

hesitant and reluctant to get involved now

understand the importance of reporting and calling

it out. Where I would say that we still need to do

a lot of work is the care for people that have

suffered abuse. We need to break down stigma, we

need to stop bashing each other, we need to stop

buying into myths. Like, A couple of common myths

are that anyone who's in a position of authority,

like a bishop or a cardinal, is out to cover it

up. That's just not true. another myth is that

anyone who is talking about, talking about abuse

in the church, is anti clerical and they're

bashing the Church. So at both wings of this,

you've got people still propagating those myths.

So challenging that culture. That's going to be

something that my grandchildren will be doing and

yours. I suspect that's what makes us safe.

>> Julia: So how can people support those who've been

abused?

>> Antonia: I think the gift of listening, you can't fix

somebody, they're not a broken vase. But you can

listen, you can be there. There is a room. A

really profound difference between suffering on

your own and suffering with the support of other

people around you. It's the. I Suppose I'm trying

to explain that when you're. When you're a child

and you're keeping this terrible secret, the only

way I can describe it is that you feel like you're

constantly holding your breath. And, when you're

with someone who knows and they know that

something might be upsetting you, people have all

sorts of. Of triggers that bring, bring them back

to that place and time when it's happening to

them. If you're with somebody who understands

that, my golly, what a difference that makes to

have someone hold your hand and say, I know that

you're not in a good place, but actually you're

not, you're not on your own. We're here with you.

Okay, that, that makes a big difference. It really

does.

>> Julia: And for you personally, what does it feel like

living with your story out in the open?

>> Antonia: liberating, I think I don't have to walk around

pretending, if something upsets me, it's fine.

It's human to be upset. But if you, if you can

witness tragedy like this and it not upset you,

then I think there might be something wrong there.

So that, that's, that's one thing I would say,

really, that the gift, I've been given is that I

have met so many people who have suffered abuse. I

mean, horrifying abuse, and yet it didn't break

them. And I think I walk. I walk in the company of

saints when I witness people like this because

they've been tested in the hottest fire imaginable

and it didn't get to take their faith away. It's

astonishing. And as terrible as some of their

stories are, I think what a gift to have met

somebody like that.

>> Julia: I, I was just thinking back to that story you

shared of you going into the church with the woman

who was sobbing all into your shirt. And she

turned around and she said to you, what are you

doing? And in some ways it reminded me of, like

that quite often people ask that question, not

just in this circumstance, but in lots of

circumstances, what are you doing? Or particularly

to God. But actually, quite often God turns around

and goes, well, you're, you're there. I've put you

there in this particular moment so that you can do

something. And I had that really powerful, like,

image in my head that that's in that moment, what

God was saying to you. And so do you feel like he

used your experience in turning it into a.

Something that you could then do to support others

in this circumstance?

>> Antonia: I would, I would say this. So there's there's

nothing like being confronted by a. A room full of

cardinals to give you some really quick

perspective. It's. It can be very intimidating and

you often feel. I often feel very overwhelmed and

underprepared. And I keep thinking God must have a

sense of humour, that he's put me here. But I

think what I've learned is that God does not call

the equipped. He calls who he calls and he equips

them how he says they have to be equipped. And

that's. That would be my message. Do not think

that because you are not a psy. You know, just.

You don't have to be a psychologist, you don't

have to be a doctor. You just have to be somebody

who cares and will not pass by on the other side

of the road. M That's all he's asking.

>> Julia: And you've.

You mentioned having been in rooms with cardinals

and I know that you've met the Pope. How did that

come about? What was that like?

>> Antonia: Well, yeah, this is a bit unusual. So I was on

Twitter, posting pictures of Lao fences, and a

priest contacted me and he said, I'm from the

Diocese of Liverpool originally, and, I'd like to

hold a loud fence. And I, said, well, we're

already talking to the Archdiocese of Liverpool.

I'll let you know when the date is. And he said,

no, no, no, this wouldn't be in Liverpool, this

would be in Rome. And I rather jokingly said, oh,

who are you friends with the Pope? And he said,

well, I am his under secretary. I am his secretary

on the Pontiff Commission for the Protection of

Miners. And I thought, you're just pulling my

chain. I don't believe this. And I said, yeah, of

course you are. And, he sent me an email with a

big papal insignia on it. And my daughter

Catherine said, mom, what have you, what have you

done? Who have you just disbelieved? So, luckily

for me, Father Andrew has a sense of humour. and,

he invited us to Rome and I addressed the

Pontifical Commission for the Protection of

Miners. And there is nothing that quite prepares

you for walking into this marble hall. And there's

just banks of tables with cardinals and bishops

and, photographers and interpreters. And you

really find out what you're made of when you're

confronted by something like that. and I felt

scared to death, but I thought, actually, I don't

want to live the rest of my life wondering what it

would be like if I just had the bottle to say what

I really felt. About the whole thing. And so I did

and it must have had an impact because after I'd

addressed the commission, Cardinal o', Malley,

Father Andrew and everyone at the commission held

a lo fence at the little church opposite the

commission's offices. And then I was asked a few

hours after that to go and meet Pope Francis. And

I took him a ribbon, I took him a letter from a

religious sister who felt very deeply about the

abuses that she'd witnessed in the church,

especially the, the fate of the sisters who'd

worked at the Centro Aleti. And I took a poem from

a priest called Father Mark Skelton in Plymouth

Diocese. And I said, these are, this is the church

and this is for you. And he said to me, you know,

this. I gave him the LOUDfence ribbon, the same

ribbon that's tied to Bishop Stevens cathedra in,

in Newcastle. And he said this is a, I mean this

is kind of, this is surreal that the Pope would

say this to you. But he said, you know, this is a

symbol of hope, the global church, and you've got

to take it everywhere. And I was just, I mean I

was there and I witnessed it all and it was

unbelievable. But I just, I still kind of pinch

myself and think I can't, I can't quite believe

that that happened. It was amazing.

>> Julia: So as we've been talking I've noticed that we've

both had our eye drawn to the shells that you've

bought into on, that are on the table. Obviously

we're in audio so our listeners can't ah, see

them. Can you give me a brief description of what

they look like but also why you've brought them

in?

>> Antonia: Right, well the first one, is one of the shells

from a pilgrimage that we did for the Jubilee Year

of Survivors. so that was a way of giving to,

couldn't go into a church, for it was a way of

recognising the fact that they're, they're still

journeying with this. I used to be a statue

restorer in my past life. and so it's gold leafed

and that's because everything that represents

someone who's been harmed should be as beautiful

as possible because they've been made to feel like

they're an ugly secret, like a scandal. And so

everything we do is the opposite of how abuse

should make them feel. And the other shell is

basically the same sort of thing, a gold leaf

shell but it's got the logo for the Jesuits on it

and this is a reminder that together we, we

journey together to a place of hope and healing.

And that would be the message that I'm hoping to

leave you all with.

>> Julia: So what do these shells represent?

>> Antonia: So obviously the one with the Christogram on it,

that represents the Jesuits. The other one

represents the survivors of, Fr Marco Rupnik,

who's undergoing canonical trial at the moment,

particularly Sister Samuel. this is to give back

to them, to tell them that they are loved and they

are valued, to send a message of care and support

from the rest of the church. Sr Samuel is making,

ah, an exquisite mosaic, in Paris at the moment.

And she's encouraging messages from other

survivors to be contributed to it. And this is a

way of sending a message of support to her and

also to the Jesuits, because we're all on this

path together and nobody has an instruction book.

Sam?

>> Julia: So what do you wish more people understood about

survivors of abuse and their relationship with the

church?

>> Antonia: So people react differently when they're in pain?

There are people who retain their faith and

they're very angry and they lash out, and it's

understandable. There are other people that just

go quiet. So everyone's different. There is no

archetypal type of survivor, but I feel that only

a few are ever portrayed in the press. And,

they're always portrayed as people who are very,

broken and injured and, you know, they're on drugs

or they've got a drink problem or what have you.

An overwhelming majority of people like that are

not like that. they're actually really scared of

coming forward. They don't want to be branded as

damaged goods or broken or messed up or a

troublemaker. They just want someone to support

them. that's what I wish people would understand.

And the people who've suffered abuse in the

church, they are a taught they're survivors. But

there are also so many other survivors in the

church. Don't make assumptions about who they are.

The survivor could very easily be the priest stood

in front of you, not the lay person stood next to

you. I've spoken to bishops who are survivors, to

religious sisters who are survivors. So don't make

assumptions. Treat everyone as an individual, and

don't sort of treat people who have suffered abuse

as if they're all one kind of homogenous group.

Anyone? Beware of anyone who stands up on a

soapbox and says, I speak for survivors. They

don't. There's 11.6 million people in this country

affected by abuse. No one is, able to speak for

that many people.

>> Julia: So what is the difference between your

relationship with God and the relationship with

Church?

>> Antonia: So here's what you find out pretty quickly when

you decide that you can't go back to the Church,

but you're wanting to stay a Catholic. The truth

is that you can't be a Catholic without the

Catholic Church. I know, I've tried. So, when St

Cyprian said one cannot have God for one's father

without having the Church for one's mother, he's

right. you need to be able to have a reciprocal

relationship with God through the sacraments. And

you can't gain access to the sacraments without

the Church. Those people, that I saw, the young

couple that you know were trying to get married

with a Catholic marriage, right, in a hotel. The,

the couple who were, baptising in their own child

on the beach, there was a lady called Frida who

died, I used to say, with the rosary with her

every fortnight on Zoom. And she just wanted to

take communion before she died. But, she didn't

feel comfortable with me telling the church where

she lived, who she was. And I wasn't allowed to

take communion on the train down to where she

lived. And all of that has taught me that you need

the Church. You can't run away from your problems.

You've got to confront them. So the answer is not

leaving the Church, but making the Church safer.

So that means you've got to stay and work for

that.

>> Julia: So what practical things can ordinary Catholics do

to accompany survivors?

>> Antonia: Ah, now there's a question. So you can hold a loud

fence, contact your parish priest, contact your,

your bishop and say, well, this is something

that's spread to dioceses all over the uk and

we'd, ah, like to hold a loud fence, get in

contact with us. We've got a website,

loudvents.com we're holding workshops, to make,

art that is able to make survivors visible and to

send a message to them. So even if you can't hold

a loud fence in your parish for practical reasons,

you can be involved in a workshop that can make

something to help someone in Plymouth or

Strathclyde or wherever. So, you know, we're one

church together, that, that would be my message.

>> Julia: I also imagine la fence is a great thing to do

ecumenically as well. Coming in, in an area,

bringing multiple churches together to create a

loud fence together.

>> Antonia: M. Yes, we try to encourage that. So, Newcastle,

Liverpool, Birmingham, these are all great

examples of Cities where the Catholic Church and

the Anglican Church have got together and it's

worked really, really well. They've supported each

other. because also this is something that in the

beginning was highly experimental. So if you were

a bishop doing this, you had to be a brave soul

because work really well or it might fail

spectacularly and then you'll be in the line of

fire. So the idea that you're working together

with. With other people from other denominations

is incredibly helpful and reassuring.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you knew?

>> Antonia: What do I. Gosh, what do I wish I knew? I'll tell

you what I wish I knew. but I'm kind of torn about

this because if I hadn't known, I wouldn't have

gone looking. And if I hadn't gone looking then I

wouldn't have been where I am now. And I feel that

although there are times when this work is very,

very difficult, it's also a great blessing. But

what I do wish I'd known when I was there crying

endlessly on the beach, was that God goes to those

broken places and it's when we are at our weakest

and we give everything to Him. That's when he

meets us where we are and we get to accompany him

whilst he is healing us. it's far more

complicated. And the. The message I would leave

with everyone is simply this. There is no way that

you can fix the Catholic Church more effectively

from outside than you can from in it. So if you

want to be part of the solution, and you are part

of the solution, go back and be the solution. I

always remember saying to people who are in the

church and they're reeling from safeguarding

scandals that have erupted. I've said the fact

that you are crying is the hallmark of the fact

that you care. And if you care, you are an

indispensable and, critical part of the solution.

So be glad for the tears because it means that

things are now going to get better.

>> Julia: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

Just to finish off, what are you grateful for?

>> Antonia: I'm grateful for all the people I've met. I'm m

grateful for the gift of the people that I now

know so well and that I count as friends, I think

that for going through the terrible pain and the

trauma of listening to the Pennsylvania grand jury

report and all the countless tears that I've shed,

I am now a far stronger Catholic than I ever was.

And what I am grateful for is that now I am in the

Church to stay and my faith has been forged in. In

a fire that's reinforced it and made it so much

stronger. So it's been a painful, invasive

process, but it was worth it. That is what I'm

grateful for.

>> Julia: Thank you for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

Antonio talks about how we all need to be within

the church to help the church learn from its

mistakes. How about you? We'd love to hear how

Antonia's story resonates with you. And why not

also tell us if you're facing an experience you

wish you knew how to look at differently, it might

just be something we can help with. You can find

out more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.