Paul (00:02.029)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Curious Advantage podcast. Thanks for joining us. My name is Paul Ashcroft. I'm here today with my co-author, Garrick Jones. No Simon today, but we are absolutely delighted to be joined by the CEO of Headstrong, Finn Hall. Finn, welcome to the podcast.

Garrick (00:14.258)
Hello.

Finn Hall (00:27.198)
Thank you guys. Thank you very much for having me on. I'll be looking forward

Paul (00:29.517)
We're really, really excited about this conversation, Finn. Let's start where we always start. Tell us a bit about you, your journey and about Headstrong. Let's start there. Yeah. So to bring it back to early childhood, it was a childhood of sport. was a scientist for...

Finn Hall (00:31.978)
Me too.

Finn Hall (00:42.364)
Yeah, so to bring it back to early childhood, it was a childhood of sport. was a cyclist for the vast majority of my life from ages five to age 19. In my mind, I was going to go and do that as a career. That's what I set out to do. I joined Team GB when I was 14. I was being trained for the Olympics for five years. And then when I was 19, I had a bearded

Paul (00:57.75)
Face-fixing.

Paul (01:04.715)
when I was 14, I was being trained to do look-picks for five years and then when I was...

Finn Hall (01:12.06)
I had a big BMX accident. So I broke both my wrists at the same time. So I was out of the sport for quite a while and ultimately ended up going off to university, going down the academic route. But because of the sort of the lifestyle I'd grown up in, very regimented, I carried on training in different disciplines, that being mainly crossfit, running, and then started using functional mushrooms.

Paul (01:24.561)
going down the academic route. Because of the lifestyle I've got a bit, very much meditated.

Finn Hall (01:41.987)
in my own training. So I was following a long distance athlete online who had been using the products. I had no idea what they were at the time. So I went down the rabbit hole, the functional mushrooms really. Started using the products on myself, loved the benefits. And then when I had a little bit better look into the market, realized that a lot of products on the market were actually quite substandard. So I reached out to a manufacturer to make me some samples.

Paul (01:44.749)
to call for distance and I'm going to for distance to

Finn Hall (02:10.922)
started using them on myself and absolutely loved the benefits. And then at that point had a little bit of a light bulb moment that I could bring a product to market. And that was two and a half years ago now, but that is sort of the origin story of Headstrong really.

Paul (02:26.25)
Yeah, so Headstrong is UK based, understand it, functional mushrooms business. And that's the business you founded and are growing now today. Brilliant business. Can I ask a bit just to go back to your story? Because I've always been fascinated by this. You know, you're a team, you're a team GB cyclist, which is, you know, not nothing, right? That's quite an impressive thing and must take a lot of dedication and work.

Finn Hall (02:36.275)
Yeah.

Paul (02:56.402)
get there. What, as you go back to that moment perhaps where you sort of had to have that fork in your career, right? And so, well, I can't do this anymore. How did you deal with that? And how did you get curious about what next? Because there's a lot of rebuilding to do, I imagine. How many say having led that life and then go, I'm going to go in this direction now. What was that experience for you?

Finn Hall (03:25.482)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the exceptions of it is a slow burner. It's not something that happens straight away, because at the time, you know, I think you don't really see it for what it ultimately will be, or at least you don't know that yet. You know, at least I thought I would bounce back and the thought of not doing what I've done pretty much every day for the past 13 years isn't really something that you take into account.

ultimately, you it unfolds slowly over time, I think, you learn to accept it. It's kind of like a relationship really in that way. Like I said, I've done it pretty much every day for 13 years. But yeah, I'd always been pretty entrepreneurial growing up, sort of tried to move away from working for someone else.

always buying, selling things online. So I always knew that I, you know, want to do something for myself, but I'd always had an innate interest in natural products and prioritizing my health in a natural way. So when I came across functional mushrooms, it just really piqued my interest because obviously it's a single ingredient products that come from the earth. And I'm probably naturally skeptical. Like a lot of people are, or rightfully should be about, you know, big pharmaceutical.

and the mass amount of... Yeah, it can be a shady game, put it that way. Yeah, there's a lot of fillers or unnecessary ingredients put into high-sweet supplements that really shouldn't be there and don't do any benefit to the end consumer.

Garrick (05:12.294)
I'm fascinated by so many things you've talked about already. I mean, I'm fascinated and want to ask you about Headstrong and this company and what it means to be entrepreneurial and how you set it up. And how did I find Headstrong in my Instagram feed, you know, about a year or so back. But before we get there, I really want to ask you about functional mushrooms. Like, what is it about functional mushrooms? There's a huge growth industry. We know that. We know that it's becoming mainstream in a way that it hasn't been before and that there are

qualities of the various different types of mushrooms that are starting to be understood more and more. Can you tell us a little bit more about those functional mushrooms? What are the different types? What do they bring to the game?

Finn Hall (05:55.516)
Yeah, absolutely. So to define functional mushrooms really as a group, I'd say it is a collection of fungi that offer health benefits beyond just the provisions of general nutrition, like, you know, say a supermarket mushroom would. To run through my product range, which we have five main mushrooms that we use. we'll start with lion's mane, which is

you know, really the most well known of the functional mushrooms. It's great for cognitive function. So it contains, heristinones and arinocenes, which are two compounds that have the ability to bypass the blood brain barrier. So they strengthen neural pathways. So it can be great for people with ADHD, you know, even depression and anxiety. And also great for focus and short-term memory. Then we have Reishi, which inhibits the production of cortisol, which is the stress hormone.

And what most people don't realize is that when they struggle to sleep at night, it's actually because of heightened cortisol levels. So it helps to pair that back. So it supports sleep and also reduces stress. have Cordyceps, which increases the production of ATP, which is the main source of energy for cellular processes. So it's great for improving cardiovascular endurance and also boost metabolism. We have

Tramella, which is known as the mushroom for the skin. So it's a really high quality source of hyaluronic acid. So it helps to reduce fine lines and wrinkles and redness and swelling on the skin surface. And then Chaga, which is for anything digestive health related, it's actually one of the most antioxidant rich substances on the planet. So it's a really great source of natural vitamins and minerals.

Paul (07:47.274)
And Finn, the Headstrong business, I know, because we've spoken about this before, you have a pretty strong sense of what Headstrong is trying to achieve in what is, you know, it's a competitive market, Functional Mushrooms. Tell us some of the things that you stand for and Headstrong stands for in the market. What's your ethos? Why are you doing it in this way?

Finn Hall (08:14.105)
It's to champion mushrooms and do it better than anyone else is really. Unfortunately, the mushroom market is pretty unregulated. So in terms of product quality, there's a lot of substandard products on the market. To delve a little bit deeper into the science, if you were as a layman to come across functional mushrooms on, you know, perhaps online and you were to search

Lion's mane mushrooms, you've been met with an Amazon listing likely, and you'd find a cheaper product which would probably sit around 15 to 20 pounds. The likely chance is that the powder used in the product is simply dried and ground mushrooms. And during that process, any active compounds are completely denatured. So any...

any effects that you would feel from that product is completely placebo. What's essential in mushroom manufacturing is the extraction process. And Headstrong is the only company in the UK to offer a capsule product that is ultrasonic triple extracted. So we use a three stage extraction process, beginning with ultrasonic waves, then using ethanol and hot water. So the standard yield of essential compounds

for products in the market sits at around 25 to 35%, whereas our products sit at 90%. So the efficacy is far, far increased.

Paul (09:46.598)
So you started like the business premise. I would read from that as a lay person is quality, essentially. You're like, actually what I'm trying to bring is quality and not pseudoscience and not, you know, cut through some of the noise around this, but actually cut through to quality and results in the market. Yeah, would that be fair to say?

Finn Hall (09:52.379)
Yeah, absolutely.

Finn Hall (10:10.555)
Yeah, I think that just that speaks to me as an individual. It's you know, I am the first user of my own products and I use my products every day and I'm so confident in my own products. I'm proud to put my face at the front of my brand. You know, I'd never put out a product that I wouldn't be happy taking myself really. So it just you know, I only take quality products. only you know, eat quality food.

It speaks to my lifestyle. So when I was creating the brand, everything had to be about executing at the highest quality.

Garrick (10:45.616)
I was amazed when your name came forward, you know, on the list, the schedule list of podcasts, because I immediately recognized Headstrong. know the brand. And the reason I know the brand was because it came through on my Instagram feed. So it was a kind of social media kind of campaign. And what got my attention, I have to say, because loads of things, as you imagine, just flood through. The thing that got my attention was the quality of your design. And

I'll admit, mean, I'm biased on this occasion in as much as I sent away and I got some of your products. You may not have known that before, but anyway, and I received something in the the post, which was extremely well designed, not overpackaged. But everything it said, you know, the promise was there and I believed it. And, you know, I've used your products. There we go. But the

The thing that really got my attention was the quality of your design. And that stood out from a lot of the other things I see. And it's great on your website, it's great on your packaging, and it's great on your marketing material. So my question, of course, is how did you end up with such great design? Because it's world class, right?

Finn Hall (12:06.81)
Yeah, I mean, I worked with some fantastic designers on the project who really brought my vision to life. But again, I think it comes back to my childhood, perhaps my dad, he has he trained as an architect and my mom was an illustrator. And I'd always been surrounded by great design at home, whether that be art or furniture. And I'd always had a real curiosity and interest in great design, you know, picking up on

names that were mentioned at home, whether it be Mies van der Rohe or Robin Day or designers like this. I think it's learning to.

Learning to appreciate good design is something that feeds into every aspect of life, I think. And especially with products like this, I position my products away from traditional supplements. So this is why in a retail setting, Hezdrone can sit next to brands like Aesop, like Marlin and Goats, and away from the traditional supplements, which are, you know, they might be white labeled.

small white tubs kind of thing, which I never wanted it to be. But the design of Headstrong itself, like I said, I worked with some great designers who really brought the vision to life. And the colours are perhaps what's most well known about the brand now. And they are representative of the characteristics of each mushroom.

Garrick (13:41.222)
And then you've got great type setting and fonts as well. The whole thing is immediately identifiable. And then of course it kind of promotes trust as well. You kind of look at great design, you look at a great website and you immediately go, okay, these people know what they're doing. The product must be great. I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand, but great design definitely sells and certainly sold me. It's interesting you...

Finn Hall (13:44.85)
Yeah.

Finn Hall (13:59.911)
Yeah.

Garrick (14:09.81)
Talking about positioning yourself outside of the normal wellness industry or the normal supplement industry. Why is that? What are you trying to achieve?

Paul (14:09.991)
.

Finn Hall (14:22.632)
I suppose I felt that Headstrong's natural positioning was amongst those brands really. It's a product that you take every day with consistency, just as you would, you know, use a high quality skincare product or use perhaps, you know, a perfume or an aftershave that you'd use for years because it becomes your scent.

That is what I envisioned for Headstrong. It weaves its way into the fabric of your life. It becomes part of your life. You use it every day.

Garrick (14:53.401)
Interesting.

Garrick (15:00.102)
Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting to hear say that because it is, it gives you the feeling of being a much more of a lifestyle product than, you know, or a high quality cream or, you know, one of those kinds of products rather than a medical product, for example. I mean, that strikes me. The other thing I'm interested in is the social media marketing. Like you've obviously used social media to grow the brand and so on. How did you get into that and what are the

Finn Hall (15:17.617)
Yeah.

Garrick (15:28.956)
principles you're using.

Finn Hall (15:33.64)
Yeah, I mean, I think the ethos around our marketing has always been to build trust and to earn a sale through educating the customer. You know, I've never really been about using that hard sell and with consumables, trust is everything. So the last thing that I want to do is, you know, shove my product into people's faces with claims that can't really be supported. Like, you know, that's rife in the supplement industry now, unfortunately.

so that's what I, that's the sort of ethos in terms of marketing, in terms of more organic social. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily use Headstrong as a, best in class example, really, you know, the brands that do it far best than we do, but I think that people do enjoy the fact that in our organic content, we delve into other industries. you know, whether it be travel, music or art, but I think that this is very much.

personal to me. It's an expression of me and my interests in many ways. And I think that people enjoy that personal touch, but it isn't equally it isn't exactly, you know, virality inducing content. So it depends on what you're classing as good content, really.

Paul (16:52.387)
It seems to work. mean, the other thing I'm fascinated by, Finn, is the business model, right? So you've done what I imagine many, many people and particularly young people would dream to do, right? They've got an idea that they've got passionate about. They've built a brand around it, but actually you've put all the elements together that makes it a solid business that delivers. But I'm imagining you don't have a back garden where you're growing mushrooms and you're

you're processing them and you're packaging them. Could you tell us a bit about the business model you've created? How did you get to that? What are some of the things you've learned along the way as an entrepreneur building a business?

Finn Hall (17:36.36)
Wow, mean, how long have we got? But yeah, the business model is, in all honesty, that was a lot of learning. was 21 at the time when I first started. And you can only learn things through making mistakes, I think, which I did a lot. It was a lot of trial and error at first. But with sticking with the ethos of executing.

a product to the highest level of quality, that really helps in terms of finding manufacturers and finding partners for the business, really. The business in its current state is largely direct to consumer. We have a small portion that is retail. And we've been with our manufacturing partner since the start of the business, really. So the products are manufactured in Germany, grown organically.

And yeah, recently we've upgraded, like I mentioned, the extraction process to an ultrasonic triple extraction process. But yeah, it's largely direct consumer and that's how the business is set up. It's a modern, like we sort of spoke about earlier, it's a modern business and a lot of that runs through online, online media, online social content, you know, the use of brand partners, you know,

For example, William Goudge, who's a great brand partner for us, getting exposure through that way. But yeah, mean, the learnings have been, they're endless and they're still, I'm still very much in early stage of the business. So it's, I'm still learning and making mistakes every day. But I think that's really important.

Garrick (19:19.954)
Do you have people around you who advise you? Like older people, younger people, people from different industries, where do you get the knowledge?

Paul (19:26.256)
So just for the industries, we can get to the future.

Finn Hall (19:29.549)
Yeah, I've been, yeah, I've been lucky to meet or at least be introduced to a lot of fantastic people. Literally just 10 minutes before this call, I just got off a call with Tim Warrelo, who founded Fibitree. I just chatted to him and learned some great things, you know, from him about distribution and really nailing that market. But I think that I do have advisors, but they've only come about through

meeting people and putting myself out there, which is something that, you know, people younger than me or people looking to start a business like mine is something I cannot stress enough. I really can't because for the first maybe 18 months of my business, I locked myself away in my bedroom and I worked for 14 hours a day because I thought that was the best use of my time. And when I stepped back a little bit, worked less and went out there to meet more people.

to actively engage in conversation more, the business accelerated at twice speed, really. It's so incredibly important, the value of connection and going out there and meeting people.

Paul (20:39.719)
You mentioned acceleration and it is growing. Where do you see the functional mushrooms and mushrooms as a industry going next? We've sort of seen what's happened to sort of cannabinoids, for example, and the application of that in different medical cases. Do you see something similar happening in mushrooms? Where do you imagine it going next?

Finn Hall (21:02.555)
Yeah, the functional mushroom market will continue to grow because the products genuinely work. So there's no reason for it not to, you know, it doesn't sort of fit into the category of a trend or a fad as a supplement and equally they're all natural. So there's great upsides to that. In a wider sort of longer term view as the mushroom market as a whole, at least for me, the end goal is to

bring to market a psilocybin based product, which is the psychedelic compound found in magic mushrooms. Yeah, I mean, this is something that I'm quite passionate about. It's something that I don't believe should be a taboo subject, which it still is, because there's huge application towards mental health treatment and even just creativity with, you know,

micro dosing and smaller dosing of psilocybin. So to bring a product like that to market would be the end goal for a business like Headstrong.

Garrick (22:12.54)
I had a great experience. I went to a Merlin Sheldrake lecture in London. were about 3000 people there. And it was based on his book, The Entangled Life. And he puts a great, he puts a great show together. He comes on and we have our phones and there's a website you go onto. And basically he continually polls the crowd to ask what they, you know, what they want him to talk about next. And there's a kind of.

living mycelium network of like that you kind of track your way through and then he you know he tells us all about mushrooms how important they are on the planet how there are more mushrooms on the planet than people and how every tree on on the planet has a mushroom that relates to it in some way because they produce the nitrogen for the trees and so on and and you know makes us aware of these kind of amazing fungal networks that you know we just take for granted or may not even be aware that they're there.

And he talks about, you know, how life on the planet is absolutely hand in glove with mushrooms. Without mushrooms, we couldn't survive, apparently. And then what he does at the end of the thing, everything we haven't talked about, he brings out of a fridge and he talks about the other things. So you get it all anyway. And it's a brilliant evening. Of course, at one point he asked the audience, how many of you are here to learn about mushrooms? And everybody put their hands up.

And they said, okay, let's be honest. How many of you just came because you thought you would talk about, he would talk about psychedelic mushrooms and psilocybin. And of course everybody put their hands up and everybody had a good laugh. And it's the thing we're mostly, we're most interested in when it comes to mushrooms because it's the fun stuff apparently. But you just said something very interesting about the psilocybin having mental health impacts. Can you tell a little bit more about what that means and what you.

where you think it's going.

Finn Hall (24:12.166)
I think it will go in a similar direction to cannabis, like you said. It won't happen in the UK first, unfortunately, it will happen in the US, because we are always quite far behind in the US, but it's always, it's already happening in some more liberal states in the US, and there's a lot of money being pumped into, there's a great, I don't know how to describe it, sort of like a,

section of King's University in London that research psilocybin specifically called Compass Pathways. And they're spending millions and millions of pounds on researching and testing the product for use in mental health cases, basically, you know, to fight depression and anxiety, you know, more severe cases. But it's the possibilities are huge for a product like this. And it shouldn't be something that is

Paul (25:00.553)
you

Finn Hall (25:10.83)
ignored because it's completely natural.

Garrick (25:14.706)
Do think it's going to be regulated at some point before you get there or what's happening?

Finn Hall (25:17.958)
Well, yeah, yeah, I think the best chance is in the US, like I mentioned, Yeah, unfortunately, the UK can be a little bit backwards. I mean, we've had recent rulings with certain strains of cordyceps mushroom and turkey tail, which have now been classed as novel foods, which means they haven't been consumed to a large extent before 1990, I think it is.

But what it really means is that these companies that are managing the verification process for products like this can make loads more money because the approval process will cost you upwards of £50,000, if not a lot more, which companies will now have to spend on approving these products, which I think is very unfair.

Paul (26:11.207)
I want to talk a bit about focus here and not just the lion's main benefits of focus, but you've carefully, I think, as you say, I'm sure you can tell us more than I think the five main brands or five main function mushrooms that you're offering there. Why did you select those? Why would you expand? And what governs your thinking around

where you take the business and how you focus what you do next. And the reason I ask is sort of a little bit back to curiosity. When we're looking to sort of explore and expand what we're trying to do, you can go anywhere, but with something, right? And as you say, you're making a choice about who's your market and so on. What's informing for you the decisions you're making about where you're taking the business next and how you're growing it?

Finn Hall (27:04.486)
Yeah, there isn't actually, you know, the function of mushroom family isn't huge. No, it doesn't span much far beyond the products that I stock. And when I was designing Headstrong, I wanted to design it as a holistic experience so you can use each of these products in a deck. Yeah, like I said, so I mean, expansion for me now is product format expansion.

Paul (27:24.265)
As a system, right, okay, yes.

Finn Hall (27:34.118)
So working on few different things at the minute, launched a gummy product earlier this year. So that's gonna be the main driver moving forward. And I think what dictates my decision is where the product will sit ultimately. So if I'm larger retail accounts, I understand that shelf space is very precious.

So it would be hard for them to stock, you know, a range of five products in one go. So instead I move over to create my mushroom blend product in gummy form. That takes up shelf, that takes up less shelf space and it's, you know, it's likely going to be more appropriate for a retail buyer, really. I'm working on some coffee, single serving coffee pouches at the minute. And the main decision behind that

is because I want them to sit in premium hotel rooms in a minibar setting.

Garrick (28:36.498)
Oh, that's interesting. So explain that to me a little more. So what would I find in a hotel room if

Finn Hall (28:42.122)
You'd have single serving sachets of premium, I'm going for sort of South American origin coffee. The taste has to be good for me, I enjoy good coffee. It will include a mushroom blend, but it would lead with Lion's mane.

Garrick (28:55.9)
Yeah.

Garrick (29:01.026)
so it's like one of those drinks you get which you sometimes get a kind of chocolate which has got mushroom in it as well. Or would it be like a coffee which has got a mushroom supplement in it as well? So it's...

Paul (29:04.991)
.

Finn Hall (29:10.032)
Yeah.

Finn Hall (29:14.18)
it would be very black coffee. It would be just like drinking a high quality black coffee. Yeah, and you can add milk to this, obviously, but yeah.

Garrick (29:18.694)
Got it.

Yeah. Wow. So.

Paul (29:25.35)
It's very interesting think about how you're expanding the... I'm sort of in the back of my mind thinking, yes, this is headstrong, but you as an entrepreneur, and I think just trying to understand your mind.

Garrick (29:28.039)
Yeah.

Paul (29:34.736)
of how you're approaching the sort of problem of how you grow the business. It seems like, well, what's working? Experiment with new formats, figure out who's that market I'm going after and then how am going to meet that need?

Finn Hall (29:45.637)
Yeah, if I understand that, you know, what I'm, what I'm set on, as I mentioned before, is championing mushrooms and doing it better than anyone else is. So what I don't, last thing I want to do and that I've seen, you know, many other brands do is jumping onto trends and moving into any sector that is hype or popular right now, whether that be electrolytes or gut health or collagen or something similar.

That's not something I'm going to do. But what I will do is focus in on mushrooms and increase the range of formats that I offer in.

Garrick (37:49.264)
So I'm just thinking about like any young person who's starting out the way that you did and who wanted to be an entrepreneur. What advice would you give them? I mean, as they embark on that journey?

Finn Hall (38:10.541)
Yeah, I think it's incredibly important to really nurture and feed what you have a natural curiosity towards. And also the best time to do this is when you're young and have the time, freedom and less responsibilities, but also to really allow yourself the space to be curious, which I think very few young people do now. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who lives in the world of social media because any still moment is

filled with scrolling really. And what I found at least that really helps me or when my ideas come or when my curiosity is piqued is in the still moments away from that. I'd really stress and encourage young people to allow themselves to go down rabbit holes and find interests and become passionate about something. I think for me at least there is...

nothing cooler than seeing someone speak passionately about something that they're interested in. I love that and it excites me when I meet someone like that. So to try and be that person, you know, to be deep and go all in on something and don't just live amongst social media and trends and you know, whatever everyone else is consuming. In terms of sort of first steps,

I take a little bit more of a hardline approach, I say, and I'd probably reframe it in the context of regret. There's a quote that I really love and that I've kept with me for years now. I'll try and sort of remember exactly, which it sort of goes something like, imagine laying on your deathbed, dreaming of the man you could have been, the things you could have accomplished, the girl you could have married.

and the life you could have lived. Many men die twice. The first is when they settle for less. And I think that is, I don't know, it speaks a lot to me. And I just stress for young people to just to not live with the regret of what could have been and to really take advantage of every opportunity that is put in front of you and every maybe, you know, unfair advantage that you have in life.

Finn Hall (40:36.783)
I think living with regret is one of the most dishonorable things that you can do as a person really. think you really owe it to yourself to eke every last drop out of life because nobody else is going to do it for you. And that's your responsibility and yours only, I think.

Paul (40:56.601)
That's a very, yeah, sorry, Garrett, wanted to add to that.

Garrick (40:58.546)
That's really inspiring.

Garrick (41:02.694)
I was just gonna say, that's really inspiring. And really, let me do that again, Paul, because I'm going to the next question. That's really inspiring. I've got a question about, you've talked about so many other things as well. You talked about interest in art, interest in design, interest in business and other people, and social media and so on, and going down, you know,

all in on things beyond your current work and beyond Headstrong. What are you, Finn, are you genuinely curious about right now in your bigger life?

Finn Hall (41:43.958)
Yeah, so I've been designing furniture in my spare time recently, which is something that I really love. And I intend to produce some pieces at some point, which is very much a personal project. But I think I'm always in awe of what can be done with your mind and just two hands and actually expressing and taking action through that and creating something.

tangible is, you know, something really beautiful to me, I think. Yeah, that's sort of like a personal thing. I mean, I also own an acai bar in Manchester with two friends, which is my first experience of hospitality business. So learning this, you know, new business model and how we can improve systems and, you know, I'm really curious about that. But that's more business related.

Paul (42:43.99)
It's amazing. of the things we say about curiosity is if you want to be successfully curious, you have to the confidence to just get in and try. And it seems like you have that in spades, You're just like, I'm intrigued by this, and in a sort of a humble and practical and pragmatic way that I'm just going to try it and see what happens. And then, look, I've built a business around this. I've worked with a couple of friends and I've gone into the hospitality business, right?

It's inspiring way of being.

Finn Hall (43:15.373)
I think it's more not being afraid of failure or not seeing failure as such a big thing and sometimes even embracing failure. I don't think anyone's done anything of any notable value without failing many times before doing that. I think it means you're moving in the right direction and it's not something that should be looked down upon at all, which I think, you know, that is maybe an issue with British culture.

I think in the States there perhaps, you know, it's a little bit more pick yourself up and go again, rather than to look down on someone. But yeah, you know, embrace that. And again, for me, it comes down to regret. I sort of live by the idea of, you know, don't die wondering. Yeah.

Garrick (43:49.202)
Hmm.

Garrick (44:02.29)
Mm.

Paul (44:03.191)
Where do you get that from for yourself, I ask? Is that from falling off a BMX bike from probably 20 meters in the air, like 100 times, or where'd you get that idea that you just pick yourself up and go again?

Garrick (44:05.318)
That was my question.

Finn Hall (44:14.818)
I don't know, to be honest. I struggle to sort of pin down a certain thing, a certain place that that comes from. It's just sort of always how I've lived. it's, know, myself as a person has grown so much more confident from living in that way. You know, I love to see others putting themselves out there, putting their neck on the line and...

taking a risk and doing something. And I also think that that's when great things are achieved when there's pressure put on the line. I work quite well under pressure, but I think that most people can too. And when you make a statement, put yourself out there and take a risk by starting a business or maybe publishing a new project, whatever it may be, I think people generally respect that, but don't be scared.

Just please don't be scared because whatever you think might happen or whatever you're worried about, you know, perhaps the judgment of others is never half as bad as you ever think it is or probably won't even happen anyway.

Paul (45:27.478)
Yeah, lovely. We really enjoyed talking to you. I'm going to have a go at trying to summarize some of the things we've covered. Before I do, if people are interested to find out more about Headstrong, where should they go find you?

Finn Hall (45:41.167)
Yeah, I mean, you can find me, you can find Headstrong on, mostly on Instagram at Headstrong.uk. I'm on Instagram at Finn Hall. If you search Headstrong mushrooms on Google, we'll come up straight away. And any of my social links are in the bio of my Instagram, really.

Paul (46:00.288)
We'll post some links so people can find you really quickly below. It's been so nice to talk to you. I I love finding out your journey from being a really young person to being an elite athlete in Team GB as a cyclist, but then taking that knot back and using that as inspiration to get into the Functional Mushrooms business, right? And then building that yourself.

through trying and failing, but putting together a really successful business that essentially is focused on quality and trying to do something different. I think I love finding out about your sort of attention to design and how that makes something stand out. But also sort of your ideas around the future and where is that part of the industry, where's the future of mushrooms going and what might that mean in terms of some of the benefits in terms of mental health for people.

I also very much liked what you were saying about the advice, like if you were to unpack the advice you would give on your journeys about how you feed your own personal curiosity and go after that unafraid, I think with the confidence to just try things out and how that's still sort of purveying how you're growing the business today. I mean, out of all of that, if there was sort of, if there was...

I'll ask, come to Garrag ask something that he might have sort of took away from this, but is there one thing that you would like to leave people with as a thought from this session?

Finn Hall (47:34.67)
Don't settle for mediocrity in whatever you do, please, because the world's full of it and it doesn't need any more of it.

Paul (47:46.057)
Thanks, Finn. Garry, what did you take away? Anything else that you took away?

Garrick (47:46.3)
love that.

I love that. mean, to build on some of the things you talked about, the design and the quality being at the heart of things. But I really got struck by when you said how the business accelerated when you got out there and connected with people that really struck a chord. And of course, you said something else about how curiosity is peaked in the stillness and giving ourselves time for stillness and stopping the social media of...

for a moment and just being still and allowing ourselves to be curious. That really struck me. And the thing of course that Paul has talked about, which also, and you talked about at the end, is don't be afraid of failure. Just go out there, do it, pick yourself up, try again, fail again, fail better. Just get on with it and live your life in that way. Amazing things are gonna happen as a result. Thank you so much. That's been great. Brilliant.

Finn Hall (48:41.774)
Thank you guys.

Paul (48:44.159)
Well, Finn, thanks so much for joining us. You've been listening to another Curious Advantage podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. This series is all about how individuals and organizations are using the power of curiosity to drive success in their lives and in their businesses, especially in the context of the digital and AI world that we're living in. We're really curious to hear from you if there's something you thought was useful or valuable.

that you heard in this conversation and we hope there is. We encourage you to get in touch, tell us, give some feedback. But please do also subscribe to the podcast series. You can get involved in having a curious conversation, hashtag curiousadvantage. Curious Advantage book is also available on Amazon worldwide. Order a copy today. We ask you to keep in touch and keep exploring curiously. See you next time.