Jayne Ray: Hi everyone, I'm Jane Ray, and welcome to another episode of Joyous Journeys Over 60. I'm here remotely with my podcast partner, Andrea Stein.

Andreas Stein: Jane, it is great to spend time together with you, even though I only see a screen image of you.

Jayne Ray: Well, to be fair, I think it's okay to share with our audience that Andreas had knee replacement surgery recently, and why don't you tell everybody how you're doing?

Andreas Stein: I'm doing quite well. It's, two weeks ago from, and I'm walking freely without a cane, without a walker, the pain is manageable. Continue to exercise, continue to ice, but overall.

Andreas Stein: The healing has been much smoother, than I even hoped for, so I'm feeling very, very grateful.

Jayne Ray: Good. And I'm sure many members of our audience have gone through some type of joint replacement. I mean, that is something that is very common.

Andreas Stein: Yeah, it is.

Jayne Ray: Age group. Not me yet, but, thankfully my joints are pretty okay, but again, I know lots of people that are, what was the TV show from the 70s? Bionic. They're Bionic.

Jayne Ray: I'm a little bionic, because I had some pins and plates put in my ankle many, many years ago. So today's journey, I think, is really… of many of the topics that we talk about, Andreas, is really a journey, because it involves a pursuit.

Andreas Stein: Yeah?

Jayne Ray: It involves a pursuit. And, you know, before we started recording, you brought up this pursuit as relates to our Declaration of Independence. And what is that?

Andreas Stein: The Pursuit of Happiness.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, the pursuit of happiness. And, you know, on today's journey, I'm hoping we can really dive a little deeper into what does happiness mean?

Jayne Ray: Is it an objective, right? Did the Declaration of Independence assume that we all had the same definition of happiness, which I don't personally believe is true. Or is it very subjective that your definition of happiness, my definition of happiness.

Jayne Ray: are different. And then, kind of looking at happiness from a…

Jayne Ray: Do you have different happiness in different chapters of your life? And because you're in your retirement chapter, what does happiness mean now?

Andreas Stein: Right?

Jayne Ray: Right?

Andreas Stein: Yeah, for me, one of the most intriguing observations, Jane, is, you know, we usually try to correlate happiness with something else, like success.

Andreas Stein: If you are successful in whatever field you have chosen, you're a happiness. But I think it's fair to say both of us know plenty of people who've been very successful in their specific field.

Andreas Stein: They're quite miserable. They're not happy, they're kind of really cranky every single day. And on the flip side, we probably both know a ton of people that been more… their success was more moderate, you know, not that they were not successful, but it wasn't quite climbing the mountains.

Andreas Stein: But they're happy, and every day is just full of smiles, and they… and it's genuine, it's not fake.

Andreas Stein: So, maybe the correspond… correlating happiness with success, not sure if that's true. You know, I know people who are pretty well known, I would not describe them as happy, and…

Andreas Stein: You know, so the whole fame idea, not sure that this corresponds to happiness, but what does?

Andreas Stein: Where do we find happiness?

Jayne Ray: Well, and I think part of it is.

Jayne Ray: Do we know how to define happiness for ourselves?

Jayne Ray: Right? As you said, you know, when you're young and you're aspiring, particularly if you're somebody that is looking at your career as something that you want to grow and feel fulfilled by, you know, the feeling is, well, I'll be happy if…

Jayne Ray: I get that promotion, I buy that car, I move to that neighborhood, I have a family, I, you know, marry my sweetheart.

Jayne Ray: And… and there's this expectation that that will make you happy.

Jayne Ray: But if you don't know, What happiness means to you personally, because it's a feeling.

Jayne Ray: Right? It's not tangible. It's a feeling of being happy. We have momentary, you know, points of happiness, right? Where, you know, whatever you're doing that day just made you happy.

Jayne Ray: And do we even know why that made us happy? So, I think you're right. I think there's a lot of very successful people that thought that by pursuing… I'm going to keep using that word, the pursuit of happiness, by pursuing happiness.

Jayne Ray: that… By getting all of those achievements.

Jayne Ray: That would somehow translate into the feeling of happiness.

Andreas Stein: You know, there's this old saying, beware if you… you know, the most dangerous place in life might be when your dreams come true, and then you find out, well, they ain't delivering the happiness they… you thought they would.

Andreas Stein: Now, where do you go now? I mean, you assume that this would be the answer to the pursuit of happiness. If you achieve this, if you get this degree, if you reach that step on the corporate letter, and then you get there.

Andreas Stein: And now?

Andreas Stein: Where is the happiness? Well, maybe I just need to do more of the same, work even harder, try even more. Well, at some point…

Andreas Stein: That restlessness becomes more overwhelming, and there's even less happiness, compared to the beginning.

Jayne Ray: And I think describing the feeling of happiness

Jayne Ray: is almost like describing the feeling of love. It is hard to put into words

Jayne Ray: Right? It's… it is something that you feel.

Jayne Ray: Deep.

Jayne Ray: And we'll talk a little bit about the difference between happiness and joy, but it's a feeling like, I'm happy.

Jayne Ray: Right? I'm happy today. I'm… I'm taking this walk, and I'm happy, or I'm spending time with this person, and I'm happy. It's just a feeling. It is almost indescribable when it happens.

Jayne Ray: But for most people, particularly in pre-retirement.

Jayne Ray: It is also something very elusive, because we don't necessarily know

Jayne Ray: Or can't really put our finger on what makes us get that feeling, right?

Andreas Stein: Let me ask you this personally, Jane.

Jayne Ray: Fuck.

Andreas Stein: Do you consider yourself happy? Happy? Overall, I mean, averaging it out. I mean, we all have miserable days. That's normal. I mean, no matter how happy a person would be, some days are just used.

Andreas Stein: Overall, would you describe yourself as a… I am a happy person.

Jayne Ray: Generally, yes. And I would say that

Jayne Ray: And I've shared this on the podcast before. It took me a while to transition from…

Jayne Ray: the satisfaction of my job, and my company, and my identity, and who I was, and you know, Lynn last week used the term, my formally important person. I was a formally important person, right? You're still on.

Andreas Stein: important, Gene.

Jayne Ray: Well, in different ways, perhaps.

Jayne Ray: And then it took me about a year after I retired, and, you know, a lot of identity crises, and, you know, figuring out how to fill my days, and all of that. And I can tell you now, right now, which is…

Jayne Ray: two years later, I am very happy with my life. I am very happy. Now, am I happy every day? Absolutely not, right? But I am happy with

Jayne Ray: my retirement life. I am happy with how it's been… how I've set it up. I'm really happy with the stuff I'm doing. And yeah, I have miserable days. I mean, I'm not gonna… I'm not gonna sugarcoat this into, yes, I'm happy all the time. No, I'm not.

Jayne Ray: But I am generally happy. I have a feeling that I am, doing what I'm supposed to be doing, what I want to be doing, and I'm enjoying what I'm doing, and I think all of those are ingredients

Jayne Ray: That go into, happiness. And, you know, part of that is happiness in simple things, right? You know, I started a community garden. I'm not a very good gardener, truthfully. My eggplant are dying. But…

Jayne Ray: When I go to the garden, and I'm outside, and I'm getting dirty, and doing all of that other stuff.

Jayne Ray: I feel that feeling of happiness. Like, it makes me happy. And again, I think happiness is indescribable, but I'm happy to be there, right? So generally, I would say yes. Do you think most

Jayne Ray: because you're not retired. Do you think.

Andreas Stein: I wish I would be, but now I still have raised a… a little raised.

Jayne Ray: Now you gotta think about what makes you happy. But, do you think most people at this stage of life

Jayne Ray: Think they can be happy.

Andreas Stein: I do genuinely believe

Andreas Stein: you know, and as a pastor, so my… the privilege is, I get to relate to people who are 95 years old.

Andreas Stein: Some are healthy, some are ill. I get to relate to people who are 2 years old, you know, and everything in between.

Andreas Stein: And it is humbling to realize, I mean, you find genuinely happy people

Andreas Stein: At every age, at every background. You know, I mean, even, I mean, the most humbling experience truly is, you know, walking into a hospital room, and you know that person is fighting an ugly battle, whether it's cancer, whether it's some other illness, and you know it's rough. I know, you know it's tough.

Andreas Stein: And mo…

Andreas Stein: Many times, I walk into this, and that person has a smile on the face and starts to talk, and there is a… there's this aura of happiness around him or her, and you just said there is a genuine happiness, even though I know what this person is going through is rough.

Andreas Stein: This is not just a little, okay, I feel bad for a day and tomorrow will be good again. You know, so I genuinely believe

Andreas Stein: that have true

Andreas Stein: full, genuine happiness can be experienced at every stage, at every age of life. I don't think there is a happier time in our lives, so the whole idea is the good old days when I was

Andreas Stein: 30 years old, and driving around in a, you know, Corvette convertible, and, you know, blasting the rock music out, and feeling on top of the world. No, you can experience today the same happiness that you found at any other.

Andreas Stein: stage in life. I want to ask you the questions, though, Jane, for myself, on my own journey.

Andreas Stein: And just trying to listen to people.

Andreas Stein: I think I have learned a lesson.

Andreas Stein: I wonder if you agree with this lesson. Part of me hopes you disagree, because then we have something to argue about. You know, so, but…

Andreas Stein: Happiness

Andreas Stein: And you, by the way, earlier, correlated happiness and love, and what I'm telling you right now, I mean, I found this to be true in both

Andreas Stein: Related to, applying to both of these emotions.

Andreas Stein: Happiness is not something that you find

Andreas Stein: But happiness is something you give.

Andreas Stein: No matter where you are, you always have the ability, through words, through whatever you do, to make somebody else happy. And in the process of bringing happiness to someone else, your own heart lights up in happiness.

Andreas Stein: By the way, talking about love, this is one of my standard messages when I preach at a wedding, you know? You know, so often when I ask a groom or a bride, say, why do you want to get married? Well, he or she makes me happy. He or she makes me happy. I said, you know, love?

Andreas Stein: Means, that, you know, that you make this vow to not, you know, that you value that person's happiness over your own, and in bringing happiness to that other person, you find a happiness, a love in your own life that you couldn't find anywhere else.

Andreas Stein: Do you agree that happiness is not something we find, But something that we give.

Jayne Ray: I think it's a little bit of both.

Jayne Ray: Right? I think that… giving…

Jayne Ray: to other people unselfishly, without motivation, right? Without, you know, without anything expected in return. Let's kind of clarify that.

Jayne Ray: I think can make you feel incredibly happy.

Jayne Ray: Right? Incredibly happy, and as I said, I genuinely believe that feeling of happiness is indescribable. You know it when you feel it.

Jayne Ray: It isn't something that's easily described, but when you are helping somebody else, you likely will feel that feeling, right? Because you're giving of yourself.

Jayne Ray: Unselfishly, right, without any kind of expectation in return. And I do think it's something you give… I mean, think about parents. Our whole being…

Jayne Ray: It's about trying to give our children a happy childhood, a happy…

Jayne Ray: Right? You know, a life that they will look back on when they were young, that will be something that they can say, I had a happy childhood. Doesn't always work that way, it's not perfect, right? We want to make sure that happiness is not a standard that you can necessarily even sustain. You can't.

Jayne Ray: Right? They're, you know, life is an up and… is an up and down as well.

Jayne Ray: I think as we age, the ability to give to others is… is greater

Jayne Ray: In the sense of it can make you happy to being able to share, right? To being able to support, to be able to care for other people. I think, again, you know that feeling when you feel it, and it's very, very common in that sense.

Jayne Ray: I also think, on the other side of it, that happiness is something that you also have to give yourself.

Jayne Ray: Meaning, you have to allow yourself to be happy. Now, the reason I say that is that you have to give yourself permission to be happy, particularly when you reach a certain age, because you… and you said it before, there may be a belief that my happiest times are past.

Jayne Ray: Right? My happiest times are frozen somewhere in a, you know, a decade where I was just happy. Right? Whether it was… whatever made you happy, whatever gave you that feeling. And I do think that there are many

Jayne Ray: who age and think, hmm, I'm never really gonna be happy again. I'll be satisfied, I'll be content, I will, you know, do some stuff, but that feeling of happiness.

Jayne Ray: That's gone, right? I had it before. Maybe you're happy when you see your grandchildren. Again, happiness is not necessarily a sustainable. There are moments of happiness, so I know when my grandson shows up for Christmas, I'm going to be very, very.

Andreas Stein: There we go.

Jayne Ray: even when he makes me crazy, I'm still going to be very, very happy. But in order to have a happy life, which I think is different, and has that kind of, you know, dynamic of the roller coaster, I think a lot of people think that ship sailed.

Jayne Ray: You know, and I think also.

Andreas Stein: Jane, I was intrigued when you said you have to give yourself permission or allow yourself to be happy.

Andreas Stein: And as I was listening to you, I was also trying to think, alright, what is it

Andreas Stein: that blocks or that keeps me from giving myself that permission, that allowance to do this, and I've…

Andreas Stein: You know, and I kind of had a smile in my mind, He's watching these two people.

Andreas Stein: And it was supposed to be funny, but I think it was very serious.

Andreas Stein: And, you know, one interviewer was asking some one lady, he said, what are you doing for happiness?

Andreas Stein: And her honest response was, Waiting for something bad to happen, because it always does.

Andreas Stein: There is always that…

Andreas Stein: cynicism in so many of us. If we have lived 60, 70 years old, you know…

Andreas Stein: You know what? Happiness is just a setup for another disappointment.

Andreas Stein: So I don't let myself get up.

Andreas Stein: on the mountain of happiness, because the crashing down will be just even more painful. So, you know what, I'd rather stay nicely flat, because at least if I… if something bad happens, I'm not falling from, Mount Everest, I'm just stumbling.

Jayne Ray: And think about it from an aging perspective. What shoe are you waiting to drop, right? You're one diagnosis away.

Jayne Ray: Right? From potentially having an illness. You're, you know, one joint replacement away, or, you know, or you're gonna lose a friend or a spouse, or a partner, and, you know, and those thoughts can actually sabotage

Jayne Ray: your ability to be happy at this point? Because truthfully, if not now, when?

Jayne Ray: Right? If you don't allow yourself… whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen, right? If you're gonna get a diagnosis, or heaven forbid, you're gonna lose somebody close to you, it's gonna happen no matter what. But the only time you really have is now.

Jayne Ray: And so, if you… if you… Not allow yourself to…

Jayne Ray: enjoy the simple things, whatever that is. You know, whatever that is, it doesn't require money, it doesn't require affluence, it doesn't require you to be a formally important person. Whatever that is that makes you happy, if you don't allow yourself to enjoy it now.

Jayne Ray: When?

Andreas Stein: I think…

Jayne Ray: gonna happen. I mean, again, you know, things are gonna happen, and that shoe is going to drop. I mean, you know, we talked about it the other day. I mean, not to be a downer, but, you know, the end of this journey is…

Andreas Stein: Save for all of us.

Jayne Ray: It's pretty much guaranteed, right? But if you give up.

Jayne Ray: the ability to feel that feeling. I said some people do it on a walk. You know, they take a walk, and they look around, and you couldn't take a walk before because you were so busy raising kids, or working, or doing whatever. It's the really, really simple things.

Andreas Stein: For a lot of people, these simple things may not even bring the happiness, because…

Andreas Stein: You know, because there is still this… Maybe I'm…

Andreas Stein: I don't know if I'm exaggerating, because I actually believe it's true.

Andreas Stein: There really is a pandemic of cynicism around, you know? And this cynicism is just like a… just sucking that happiness away, and anything positive…

Andreas Stein: Whatever that may be, whether it's the simple stuff or whatever else you enjoy, it's just…

Andreas Stein: The heart interprets it just as a… as a preface to

Andreas Stein: the downfall, you know? So, and so naturally, I can no longer enjoy it, because, alright, what's gonna happen? And to break out of that cynicism…

Andreas Stein: you know, that has often built over decades. It's not just something that happens overnight.

Andreas Stein: There seems to be truly a pandemic of cynicism.

Jayne Ray: Influenced in many, many ways by, social media.

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: other people, people telling you you shouldn't, should, shouldn't, you know, your adult kids may be telling you you should, shouldn't, shouldn't, right, be doing certain things. And again, you have to give yourself permission.

Jayne Ray: And to me, that's the hardest part, is allowing yourself

Jayne Ray: Right? Even selfishly, allowing yourself to do things that are different. I do want to just touch on one more thing before we finish, because I think it's important. You know, we call this…

Jayne Ray: podcast, Joyous Journeys Over 60. And so, joy, right? The definition of joy.

Jayne Ray: Which is so deep, right? So deep.

Jayne Ray: Can you be joyful if you don't give yourself permission to be happy?

Andreas Stein: You know, for myself, the difference that…

Andreas Stein: how I interpret these terms differently is this. Happiness is really the result

Andreas Stein: of a… of an experience, of something that happens in this situation. My favorite sports team wins, I'm happy, I'm cheerful, I'm jubilant, and…

Andreas Stein: Three hours later, I forgot what even happened.

Jayne Ray: Right.

Andreas Stein: Joyful joy is something permanent. That's something kind of the underlying melody in our heart that keeps playing, even if the individual experiences

Andreas Stein: change from one to the other. So I think joyful, the way I interpret it, is something permanent.

Andreas Stein: Happiness changes From moment to moment.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, you know, I keep thinking of, like, when my children were born.

Andreas Stein: Right?

Jayne Ray: that moment in time when you, you know, meet your child, or… my cat is meowing, and he's about to jump on my lap, so we're gonna get the opinion from Panda in a minute. But, you know, or the first time I saw my puppy, or, you know, the… there's so many, like.

Jayne Ray: things that are permanently ingrained in your life that give you joy, right? That it is, again, an indescribable feeling.

Jayne Ray: of… I'm… I'm… I'm… I'm joyful.

Andreas Stein: Right.

Jayne Ray: And again, like, love and happiness, I don't think you can describe joy

Jayne Ray: But I don't think you can… even with those moments of happiness, I don't think you can get… feel joy.

Jayne Ray: If you don't allow yourself to feel happy.

Jayne Ray: Right? If you… if you're convinced that the other shoe is going to drop, or whatever bad thing is going to happen, or whatever, that permanent feeling of joy… I'm joyous because I'm still alive, right? I mean, right? That's a pretty permanent feeling. You know.

Jayne Ray: it's… it is… it is something so deeply personal, but I also think you can't feel either one of them, the momentary fleeting happiness, or the deeper, more profound sense of joy, if you think that at this point in your life, those feelings are over.

Andreas Stein: Well, that is, I think, the underlying…

Andreas Stein: conclusion. If I've… you know, the most powerful force in the universe, in my opinion, is the mind that has been made up. If a person has made up his mind.

Andreas Stein: I mean, God Himself could come from heaven and stand right in front of that person, the person would say no. I mean, if you made up your mind.

Andreas Stein: That's it. There is nothing anyone can do. So if you've made up your mind, my best days are over, there is no more happiness, no more joy for me, it's just a big, big…

Andreas Stein: downhill slide from here on out. And if you made up your mind that that's what the rest of the time is gonna be.

Andreas Stein: chances are, there's a likelihood that, you know, you may find what you've made up your mind on, you know? So… and… but I, as I said, I mean, I genuinely believe, and this is not a conviction that came from sitting behind a desk, but it's, for me, a conviction that came

Andreas Stein: From visiting people in nursing homes, in hospitals, in, you know, of all kinds, helping people prepare to die as they're dealing with terminal illnesses, you know, helping people going through relationships, breakup, and you find out that

Andreas Stein: As weird as it sounds, happiness and joy can truly be found

Andreas Stein: in places where you never thought there is any happiness or joy. Happiness or joy can be found no matter where you are in life. And if you take… if that's the only thing you take away from this, I think this is a good conclusion. Where you are today.

Andreas Stein: Happiness is not that memory of 50 years ago when life was easy. Happiness is about today, joy is about today, and you can experience both today.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, and I would like to give our audience a little homework.

Jayne Ray: There we go. I think tomorrow, whenever tomorrow is for you, Do something.

Jayne Ray: That you think might make you happy.

Jayne Ray: something completely self-indulgent, don't have to spend any money doing it, right? Whatever that is.

Jayne Ray: Commit yourself to, today, I am going to do something that I want to do, not what other people want me to do, not an obligation, not any of that. I'm going to do something today that I think is going to, at least for a fleeting moment, make me happy.

Jayne Ray: Right? Could be whatever, right? There is no right, there's no wrong.

Jayne Ray: there's a couple of wrongs, but okay, don't kill somebody to make yourself happy, okay? Yeah, yeah. But you understand. Do something

Jayne Ray: It could be, take a long bath, it could be take a walk, it could be indulging some retail therapy, it could be whatever it is.

Jayne Ray: But…

Jayne Ray: pursue that feeling, right? That feeling that I can't tell you what it is for you, I can tell you what it feels for me. It's kind of in the pit of your stomach, right?

Jayne Ray: pursue that feeling. One thing, right? Just one thing. Maybe giving yourself the time to read a book, and when you're reading it, you just feel happy.

Jayne Ray: Right? Happy to have the time, the energy, the interest to do that. Whatever it is, do one thing, and…

Jayne Ray: Pursue that feeling. And if you don't feel it, then do another thing.

Jayne Ray: Right? Because that's part of the definition. The definition of happiness isn't here. It's here.

Jayne Ray: Right? For a lot of people, it's their faith. Whatever it is.

Jayne Ray: Find that feeling and hold onto it, because that's your journey into joy.

Jayne Ray: Anyhow, I'm happy that we got to spend some time together.

Andreas Stein: Yes, it is always just a great experience talking to you.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, and you know, this journey today doesn't end, right? It doesn't end. We always say, well, for today's journey, this journey doesn't end. But…

Jayne Ray: We will continue bringing you as many joyous journeys as we can. I do hope, if you are on Facebook, that you will take a few minutes and join our Facebook group. We're trying to make an interaction opportunity, so instead of just listening to Andreas and I speak, we have a chance to share with each other private, safe.

Jayne Ray: You know, it is not a public, forum, it is…

Jayne Ray: It is promoted publicly, but anything that you share in there is completely confidential and private, so please go up and join our Facebook group, Joyous Journeys Over 60. Again, we'll be releasing new episodes on a regular basis, so I do hope that you'll stay tuned.

Jayne Ray: Andreas, I really hope that your recovery continues as well as it has.

Andreas Stein: Oh, yes. I'm feeling very encouraged, I think. You know, I still have ways to go.

Andreas Stein: But I think, I thank God, that I'm no longer where I were two weeks ago.

Jayne Ray: I thank God, too.

Jayne Ray: All right, bye everyone!

Andreas Stein: Bye, everyone.

Jayne Ray: On our next journey. Alright, take care.

Andreas Stein: live here.