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Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray.

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I'm in the Priva Eye Studio with Helen
Lewis, Adam McQueen and Matt Muir.

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And we are going to start off
today by talking about social

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media.

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it's very exciting.

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There's a new study out about
this exciting phenomenon of social

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media, which reveals everyone
now hates it and has gone off it.

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this is a report by Ofcom, isn't it, Matt?

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Yeah, it's the latest.com data
that was published last week,

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into UK

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media uses specifically

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online

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media, showed that, basically
we all hate social media now,

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or at least we are not engaging
with it in the same way

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that

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we used to.

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the numbers of people who are actually

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going

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online and

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posting, for example, to Facebook

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or

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to Instagram,

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commenting, liking

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has dropped to just

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under half of people.

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And this has

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led to a spate of articles that kind
of hand ringing saying, is that it for

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social media?

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oh, now that we are banning it, are we all

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just gonna stop using

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it after all?

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But that's not

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quite what the data shows, I think
it's important to, to push back.

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Ever so slightly against this narrative
because I dunno if you notice people,

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still look at their phones a lot.

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I dunno.

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I like, I presume you
still look at Instagram.

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is it fair to say?

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Well, I've

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only just joined.

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I'm a bit embarrassed about it.

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Just as everyone else is leaving,

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it's, not too late

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to stop

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No.

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you can,

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get out.

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Andy's a proper content creator.

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And isn't this current a part

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of,

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this?

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What's happened Is that the casual
How dare are you Oh, you are though.

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I've seen you on there.

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But the, kind of casual, like you
might just post something for your

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friends kind of stuff is dying away and
it's becoming more professionalized.

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part.

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I think That's basically it.

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there's,

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a longstanding trope here.

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The media, all media will eventually, in
the same way that all life forms on earth

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become krabs eventually.

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So

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all media,

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what?

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You just threw that one in

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threw that one.

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Is that true?

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Hey, you can go look it up.

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Ation is a real fact.

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but all media eventually ends up
being video and fundamentally social

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media.

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If

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you think

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that Facebook has been around
for 20 years now, more or less,

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And when

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it started, it was a place

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where you

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went to connect with friends,
to attempt to flirt with

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people

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that you went to

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school with,

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break up your marriage and
post pictures of your holidays.

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it is not that anymore.

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it has

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become a far larger, far

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more complex platform series of platforms.

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And effectively,

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fundamentally, most social

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media

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platforms are now like television.

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Whereas before they were lean

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forward participatory things.

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Now they simply tend to

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be lean back.

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So for example, you will log

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onto Instagram and

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rather than posting to your
grid of pictures or seeing

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the things that your friends
have posted to their grid

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of pictures,

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you'll

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instead be served a vast quantity
of video content made by people that

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you don't know that is designed to
entertain you much like TikTok does,

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which is exactly

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what Snapchat does,

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which is exactly what,
YouTube shorts does.

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Everything is basically
now short term video.

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And so it's not that people are using
social media less, it's just the manner

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in which they are engaging with it has

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changed significantly

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from being something, as
I said, participatory to

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something that is

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fundamentally about

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consumption.

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we should say private.

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I, as a traditional news organization,
will never, ever pivot to video.

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But your mention of
TikTok iss interesting.

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Because that is I think where
the pivot really happened.

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Everybody decided that the kind of
the for you algorithm was just a much

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infinitely superior way of content.

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when it's

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one of the, one

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of the oddities of social

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media, and whenever

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you read people's surveyed
about this, people always say

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in conversations, you know

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what?

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I really

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miss the old days of
Instagram where I just

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go on

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there and it would be the

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things

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that my friend had posted.

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And I would scroll through and it would go

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backwards in time.

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And

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then there would be, and people
always say this, but every single

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study that has ever been undertaken
by social media companies shows

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that's bollocks.

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And what

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people actually is the algorithmic

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feed

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because they really,

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being served this

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continual

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stream of infinite content that's
tailored to their very specific desires.

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And that

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is basically a post TikTok,
as you say, Helen thing, they

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were the first people to perfect that.

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And everybody's followed, suit

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with this,

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but people are posting a bit less, people
are partly, because making video is

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A faff as opposed to

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words or

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pictures

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fundamentally that there's a
slightly higher barrier to entry.

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Not everybody

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feels comfortable doing it.

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And also we are now a
little bit more attuned

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to

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the fact that having your face

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all over the internet possibly isn't

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a great thing for lots and lots of people.

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Yeah.

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women, it turns out, tend to
have actually often quite a bad

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time when they post pictures of
themselves on the internet for a

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variety of reasons, whether it be abuse or

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whether

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it be someone using Elon Musk's
magical Uni unification tool.

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to

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turn them into

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porn stars.

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so you can see

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why people might be

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somewhat reticent,

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and what are the other elements of
the Ofcom study that was out last

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week or the, their survey is the
proportion of people saying social

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media is good for their mental health.

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That has come down to
36%, which I would say is,

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still

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who are these people?

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remarkably

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high.

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if you use it a little bit and you
just check in, see some funny videos.

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most of my usage, apart from
the dead Eyed brand extension

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that

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I'm up to is, just checking
into seeing sketch comedy

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and which I, don't mind, but.

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two years ago, 42% of people said
it was good for their mental health.

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Now it's 36.

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It does still seem very high, but it
brings us onto one of the reasons we

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wanted to talk to you today, Matt, which
is of course, the chat about social

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media bans, the huge lawsuits that
have been happening against Meta and

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YouTube, those are over in the States.

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But here people are saying, do we
need to regulate this quite firmly

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and in particular stop children,
under the age of 16 from using it?

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So can you tell us law is
on that, at the moment.

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So

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currently

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the government is undertaking
its one third of the way through

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a three month consultation.

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so there are soliciting

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responses.

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basically on the question of yes, should

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there be a ban for under
sixteens, what would be the

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positive consequences of this?

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What might be the potential negative

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consequences of this?

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so far they've had somewhere in
the region, they've say they were

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saying a couple of weeks ago of
30,000 responses, which by the

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standards of government consultations

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Is

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a fairly big,

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big uptake and

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it's got another

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two months left to

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run.

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There obviously, there's a lot of

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interest behind this.

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anyone respond to it?

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Is it any member of the

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any member of the public?

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can do it.

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There are three separate consultations.

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One is

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for parents, one is

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for younger people, and one is for
any other interested parties who

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may have skin in the game for
whatever reason, whether it

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be professional or personal.

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Exactly what's going to happen.

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To what may well be a

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hundred thousand responses.

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How they're gonna be triaged and
to what extent it's just going to

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be fed into an LLM

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because

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that's

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almost certainly what's going

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to happen.

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Yes, of

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course.

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Don't you think it'd be like, they'll do
a sentiment analysis on it, essentially,

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and they'll go, they'll, ask the LLM to
say, what percentage of these said, I

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hate social media and I want it banned,

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if

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get a word cloud, aren't we?

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Yeah, Without,

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a shadow of it.

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doubt, a beautiful dashboard.

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just a beautiful thing for showing
you what it would've been like

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if everyone said those words in a

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different order and

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and

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I'll just say like in the middle
of it, I'll just say feet.

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What If I

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don't like large language models,
where do I express my views about that?

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In a way that will mean someone reads it.

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are really

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not

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going to like the future.

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very

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Okay.

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Gosh.

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Gosh.

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Okay, so this consultation's running.

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Am I right in thinking I've read
that there are trials that are

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happening in 300 homes, they're
gonna actually experiment with.

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Cutting social media

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usage

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for children.

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That's absolutely right.

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Yes.

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So the, these are limited

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trials that are

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happening around the UK

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simultaneously.

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There's another study that was launched

278
00:06:53,205 --> 00:06:55,335
last week, in Bradford, I

279
00:06:55,335 --> 00:06:59,025
believe, which is an exceptionally
large longitudinal study over

280
00:06:59,025 --> 00:07:00,465
the course of a year that's going

281
00:07:00,465 --> 00:07:01,365
to track

282
00:07:01,365 --> 00:07:01,905
or seek

283
00:07:01,905 --> 00:07:02,445
to track

284
00:07:02,685 --> 00:07:02,835
the

285
00:07:02,895 --> 00:07:03,405
impact

286
00:07:03,435 --> 00:07:07,995
of social media usage on young
people's, emotional wellbeing.

287
00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:09,300
that's going

288
00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:09,990
to run until

289
00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:10,770
2027.

290
00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:14,100
which does rather make one,
wonder, okay, so we gonna take a

291
00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,230
decision on this before we
have all of this evidence,

292
00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:17,580
because, it does feel possibly

293
00:07:17,580 --> 00:07:19,080
slightly premature, But the interesting

294
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:19,260
thing

295
00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:20,370
about this, and

296
00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:21,030
one

297
00:07:21,030 --> 00:07:22,080
of the really interesting things

298
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:22,230
about

299
00:07:22,230 --> 00:07:23,010
the debate as a whole

300
00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:23,520
is that

301
00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:25,170
over the course of the 13 years

302
00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:27,510
that I've been writing about
these godawful companies

303
00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:28,650
and the terrible things that they've done

304
00:07:28,650 --> 00:07:29,040
to the world,

305
00:07:29,354 --> 00:07:29,624
there

306
00:07:29,624 --> 00:07:29,819
has been

307
00:07:30,504 --> 00:07:30,894
a lot

308
00:07:30,894 --> 00:07:32,544
of research that has

309
00:07:32,544 --> 00:07:33,804
passed across my desk.

310
00:07:34,104 --> 00:07:35,184
Debating the

311
00:07:35,184 --> 00:07:37,344
impact of these technologies on

312
00:07:37,344 --> 00:07:38,334
the mental wellbeing

313
00:07:38,334 --> 00:07:38,454
of

314
00:07:38,454 --> 00:07:39,384
both adults and

315
00:07:39,384 --> 00:07:39,654
younger

316
00:07:39,654 --> 00:07:40,014
people.

317
00:07:40,434 --> 00:07:42,144
And what's been striking about it is the

318
00:07:42,144 --> 00:07:42,864
complete lack of any

319
00:07:42,864 --> 00:07:45,174
sort of consensus for every single piece

320
00:07:45,174 --> 00:07:45,714
of research

321
00:07:45,714 --> 00:07:46,104
that says,

322
00:07:46,284 --> 00:07:48,714
these things are the worst thing
for young people since we got

323
00:07:48,714 --> 00:07:49,044
rid of

324
00:07:49,044 --> 00:07:49,314
child

325
00:07:49,314 --> 00:07:49,584
labor.

326
00:07:50,544 --> 00:07:53,124
there's another that says
actually they have no discernible

327
00:07:53,124 --> 00:07:55,164
impact at all when you take

328
00:07:55,164 --> 00:07:55,674
into account

329
00:07:55,674 --> 00:07:56,904
all of the other things that are going

330
00:07:56,904 --> 00:07:57,954
on in young people's lives.

331
00:07:58,404 --> 00:07:59,394
And this

332
00:07:59,394 --> 00:08:01,644
kind of comes to the

333
00:08:01,674 --> 00:08:02,424
recent rulings

334
00:08:02,424 --> 00:08:02,544
in

335
00:08:02,544 --> 00:08:03,144
the states,

336
00:08:03,924 --> 00:08:05,754
which while ostensibly

337
00:08:05,994 --> 00:08:06,324
can be

338
00:08:06,324 --> 00:08:08,184
seen as very, bad news for

339
00:08:08,184 --> 00:08:10,119
social platforms, probably aren't

340
00:08:10,119 --> 00:08:13,344
quite as definitive as the
media has wanted to paint them,

341
00:08:13,391 --> 00:08:14,711
We, we should say what those are.

342
00:08:15,041 --> 00:08:19,241
There's, a case in California where
Meta and YouTube were fined $6 million

343
00:08:19,241 --> 00:08:24,401
for designing deliberately addictive,
algorithms to get children in particular.

344
00:08:24,461 --> 00:08:30,011
In, and the other was in New Mexico,
which was a $375 million Fine.

345
00:08:30,596 --> 00:08:30,866
Just, to

346
00:08:30,866 --> 00:08:31,136
point

347
00:08:31,136 --> 00:08:32,486
out Andy, that's

348
00:08:32,726 --> 00:08:32,996
not

349
00:08:32,996 --> 00:08:34,436
0.62%

350
00:08:34,736 --> 00:08:34,976
of

351
00:08:34,976 --> 00:08:35,336
meta's

352
00:08:35,336 --> 00:08:35,966
income from

353
00:08:35,966 --> 00:08:36,716
2025.

354
00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:36,866
Okay.

355
00:08:36,881 --> 00:08:37,601
It's a start.

356
00:08:38,441 --> 00:08:39,041
that was over.

357
00:08:39,041 --> 00:08:41,891
Claims that the products led to
things like child sexual exploitation

358
00:08:42,011 --> 00:08:42,251
Exactly.

359
00:08:42,251 --> 00:08:46,301
And that the platforms weren't protecting
children from being approached by

360
00:08:46,451 --> 00:08:47,831
creeps or potential abusers online,

361
00:08:47,831 --> 00:08:48,071
Exactly.

362
00:08:48,071 --> 00:08:48,791
that kind of thing.

363
00:08:49,241 --> 00:08:52,781
meta and YouTube are appealing those
verdicts, but the aim is to try

364
00:08:52,781 --> 00:08:57,071
and launch as many of the cases as
possible to try and reign them in

365
00:08:57,086 --> 00:08:57,566
basically,

366
00:08:57,566 --> 00:08:57,716
yes.

367
00:08:57,926 --> 00:09:00,596
the big one whilst the New
Mexico one has a very big

368
00:09:00,596 --> 00:09:01,496
headline figure.

369
00:09:02,066 --> 00:09:05,036
meta themselves have
laughed off defined frankly.

370
00:09:05,086 --> 00:09:06,226
The one that's more significant

371
00:09:06,226 --> 00:09:06,646
is the LA

372
00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:08,446
case, primarily because

373
00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:09,826
there are potentially thousands of

374
00:09:09,826 --> 00:09:10,426
other cases

375
00:09:10,426 --> 00:09:12,016
waiting in the wings that

376
00:09:12,136 --> 00:09:15,016
were this verdict to be upheld
after the inevitable appeal.

377
00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:17,266
Would set obviously a precedent that

378
00:09:17,266 --> 00:09:19,696
could then actually prove
quite significant in

379
00:09:19,696 --> 00:09:21,106
terms of potential liabilities

380
00:09:21,106 --> 00:09:21,646
for the companies

381
00:09:22,036 --> 00:09:22,996
and requirements on

382
00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:26,476
them to modify their services
to frankly, potentially avoid

383
00:09:26,746 --> 00:09:26,956
any

384
00:09:26,956 --> 00:09:27,166
sort

385
00:09:27,166 --> 00:09:29,356
of huge long tail legal kickback.

386
00:09:29,655 --> 00:09:30,496
The difficulty,

387
00:09:30,556 --> 00:09:31,336
of course,

388
00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:32,116
is that

389
00:09:32,435 --> 00:09:32,765
a

390
00:09:33,065 --> 00:09:35,915
meta is going to appeal
and YouTube, has a very

391
00:09:35,915 --> 00:09:36,365
strong ground

392
00:09:36,365 --> 00:09:38,045
for appeal because I think
they can make a reasonable

393
00:09:38,045 --> 00:09:38,945
case that they're not actually

394
00:09:38,945 --> 00:09:39,755
a social platform

395
00:09:39,755 --> 00:09:40,475
in a meaningful

396
00:09:40,475 --> 00:09:40,805
sense.

397
00:09:40,805 --> 00:09:41,165
They are,

398
00:09:41,405 --> 00:09:42,515
They really are just, they're

399
00:09:42,515 --> 00:09:44,735
a video streaming platform and I
think they can probably do that.

400
00:09:45,061 --> 00:09:45,485
Meta is

401
00:09:45,485 --> 00:09:45,695
a little

402
00:09:45,695 --> 00:09:48,395
bit harder, but the case rests on

403
00:09:48,425 --> 00:09:49,535
the fact that meta's

404
00:09:49,535 --> 00:09:50,885
products are addictive

405
00:09:52,025 --> 00:09:52,175
and

406
00:09:52,430 --> 00:09:52,925
that's quite

407
00:09:52,925 --> 00:09:53,585
a contentious

408
00:09:53,585 --> 00:09:54,335
thing to prove.

409
00:09:54,635 --> 00:09:56,675
So for example, there are literally

410
00:09:56,675 --> 00:09:57,485
no studies

411
00:09:57,515 --> 00:09:58,085
out there,

412
00:09:58,265 --> 00:09:59,435
no studies whatsoever

413
00:09:59,705 --> 00:09:59,945
that

414
00:09:59,945 --> 00:10:02,495
show the technology products of any sort,

415
00:10:02,495 --> 00:10:03,875
but specifically social media

416
00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:04,805
have

417
00:10:04,835 --> 00:10:04,955
the

418
00:10:04,955 --> 00:10:06,485
same effects mentally.

419
00:10:06,905 --> 00:10:08,375
As actually addictive

420
00:10:08,375 --> 00:10:10,805
products, Like it is not
the same as smoking or

421
00:10:10,805 --> 00:10:11,345
doing heroin.

422
00:10:11,585 --> 00:10:11,795
Right.

423
00:10:11,885 --> 00:10:12,545
It does not

424
00:10:12,545 --> 00:10:12,815
light

425
00:10:12,815 --> 00:10:13,055
up the

426
00:10:13,070 --> 00:10:16,100
it is, they are fundamentally designed
to keep you looking at your screen and

427
00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:17,360
keep you on that platform, aren't they?

428
00:10:17,555 --> 00:10:20,570
I was talking to a, an anti-gambling
campaign, or recently who made a

429
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,540
really interesting point, about
even WhatsApp, which you think

430
00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:26,270
of as being a sort of relatively
innocent one, the two tick thing.

431
00:10:26,540 --> 00:10:28,280
is designed to have you there,
you've sent your message, you've

432
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:29,000
done whatever you're gonna do.

433
00:10:29,330 --> 00:10:30,260
No, you're gonna stay there.

434
00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:32,030
You're gonna keep looking if
you're, oh, have they read it yet?

435
00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:33,020
Has everyone in the group read it?

436
00:10:33,020 --> 00:10:34,250
Has anyone, oh, someone's typing.

437
00:10:34,670 --> 00:10:36,530
Everything is about
keeping you on that path.

438
00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:38,960
And you can feel that, I feel it myself
when I'm scrolling through my phone.

439
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:39,860
There's a point where I just go

440
00:10:40,340 --> 00:10:40,520
put

441
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,240
it down, Adam put it down and,
I just There's A bit more.

442
00:10:44,255 --> 00:10:45,196
you are entirely right.

443
00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:47,905
They are designed specifically
because fundamentally speaking,

444
00:10:47,905 --> 00:10:50,965
that's what venture capitalists
demanded when they invested very

445
00:10:50,965 --> 00:10:51,655
heavily in these

446
00:10:51,655 --> 00:10:54,115
services and they wanted to
see user retention and all of

447
00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:54,700
Interesting.

448
00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:56,740
They're not very well
designed for that these days.

449
00:10:56,740 --> 00:10:59,080
I find, 'cause I'm, I was on
Facebook for a long, time.

450
00:10:59,080 --> 00:10:59,740
Left it last year.

451
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:00,160
Again,

452
00:11:00,430 --> 00:11:00,730
exactly

453
00:11:00,730 --> 00:11:02,080
the same problem coming up with Instagram.

454
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,150
Now that all I seem to be
getting are sponsored posts.

455
00:11:04,450 --> 00:11:07,000
About things which the algorithm
is convinced that I'm interested

456
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,110
in, I'm, a bit of a geek, but I
don't need to see 1 million posts

457
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:12,520
about those two episodes of Dr.

458
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:13,030
Who that turned

459
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:13,120
up

460
00:11:13,135 --> 00:11:14,095
in someone's last week,

461
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,630
which seems to be all
Instagram is giving me at the

462
00:11:16,735 --> 00:11:16,915
Do you

463
00:11:16,915 --> 00:11:18,865
also get heavily owned by the adverts?

464
00:11:18,865 --> 00:11:19,255
I do.

465
00:11:19,285 --> 00:11:21,665
'cause it's obviously clocked that
I'm a woman between the ages of 40

466
00:11:21,685 --> 00:11:25,255
and 50, so all it wants to talk to me
about his hair loss and dry vaginas.

467
00:11:25,255 --> 00:11:25,825
And you're just like,

468
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:27,550
Oh, Viagra.

469
00:11:27,550 --> 00:11:28,030
Viagra.

470
00:11:28,030 --> 00:11:28,540
Viagra.

471
00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:29,020
I'm afraid.

472
00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:29,200
Yeah.

473
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:29,860
Middle-aged men.

474
00:11:29,860 --> 00:11:30,130
Yep.

475
00:11:31,045 --> 00:11:31,405
Yeah, I'm

476
00:11:31,525 --> 00:11:32,560
getting is Soler panels and

477
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:32,770
heat

478
00:11:32,785 --> 00:11:33,025
pumps.

479
00:11:34,525 --> 00:11:34,855
I had a

480
00:11:34,855 --> 00:11:35,035
very

481
00:11:35,035 --> 00:11:36,505
interesting experience
last year where, for

482
00:11:36,505 --> 00:11:40,795
reasons that I can't adequately
explain, the algorithm on

483
00:11:40,795 --> 00:11:41,185
Facebook

484
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:41,810
decided that

485
00:11:41,875 --> 00:11:42,775
I was a gay

486
00:11:42,775 --> 00:11:43,645
man for about a week.

487
00:11:43,645 --> 00:11:45,595
And it was a genuinely fascinating insight

488
00:11:45,895 --> 00:11:47,125
into a world that I

489
00:11:47,125 --> 00:11:47,935
don't personally experience

490
00:11:48,115 --> 00:11:50,965
lots of very beautiful, muscled men
and incredibly handsome knitwear.

491
00:11:51,925 --> 00:11:52,115
It was, Yeah,

492
00:11:52,135 --> 00:11:52,330
It

493
00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:52,765
was a nice time

494
00:11:52,810 --> 00:11:53,320
Turn to at all, or

495
00:11:54,675 --> 00:11:54,895
Not,

496
00:11:55,045 --> 00:11:55,375
not yet.

497
00:11:55,705 --> 00:11:55,885
I'll,

498
00:11:55,885 --> 00:11:56,035
see

499
00:11:56,035 --> 00:11:56,245
how it

500
00:11:56,270 --> 00:11:57,775
limits, the powers of social media.

501
00:11:58,205 --> 00:12:02,701
Can I, drag us back to the prospect of a
ban, which would stop us seeing Australia

502
00:12:02,701 --> 00:12:05,251
have just banned it for under sixteens.

503
00:12:05,251 --> 00:12:05,311
They

504
00:12:05,521 --> 00:12:05,791
and we

505
00:12:05,791 --> 00:12:09,181
have, we've had our first
kind of little glimpse of

506
00:12:09,181 --> 00:12:10,051
how it's going.

507
00:12:10,216 --> 00:12:10,336
It's

508
00:12:10,561 --> 00:12:11,251
early, isn't it?

509
00:12:11,251 --> 00:12:12,601
It's incredibly early.

510
00:12:12,601 --> 00:12:14,281
It's been a couple of months effectively.

511
00:12:14,281 --> 00:12:14,431
And

512
00:12:14,851 --> 00:12:15,451
the first big

513
00:12:15,451 --> 00:12:16,921
proper government mandated,

514
00:12:17,551 --> 00:12:19,621
data on this is gonna
come out, I believe in May

515
00:12:19,621 --> 00:12:20,311
from Australia.

516
00:12:20,311 --> 00:12:20,401
So

517
00:12:20,401 --> 00:12:21,001
that's gonna be

518
00:12:21,001 --> 00:12:22,711
the first proper official cut.

519
00:12:23,131 --> 00:12:23,551
But,

520
00:12:24,361 --> 00:12:26,191
anecdotal evidence, reports that

521
00:12:26,191 --> 00:12:27,271
came out again last week

522
00:12:27,571 --> 00:12:30,691
suggested that about 70%
of Australian kids were

523
00:12:30,691 --> 00:12:31,591
just swerving this.

524
00:12:32,025 --> 00:12:34,894
The age verification stuff
doesn't work particularly well.

525
00:12:34,954 --> 00:12:36,844
It is actually quite easy to bypass.

526
00:12:37,234 --> 00:12:37,624
And

527
00:12:38,044 --> 00:12:39,874
we've all been teenagers

528
00:12:39,964 --> 00:12:41,044
at various points

529
00:12:41,044 --> 00:12:41,194
in the

530
00:12:41,194 --> 00:12:42,424
distant past, and

531
00:12:42,424 --> 00:12:45,193
we all know that there is nothing
more powerful than a motivated

532
00:12:45,193 --> 00:12:47,563
teenager that wants to do something
you don't want them to do.

533
00:12:47,995 --> 00:12:48,595
you always find a

534
00:12:48,595 --> 00:12:49,195
way around and

535
00:12:49,375 --> 00:12:50,845
social media bands are no exception.

536
00:12:50,845 --> 00:12:51,625
So firstly, there's

537
00:12:51,865 --> 00:12:52,465
the difficulty

538
00:12:52,465 --> 00:12:53,395
in actually

539
00:12:53,395 --> 00:12:55,165
enforcing this in any meaningful sort of

540
00:12:55,165 --> 00:12:55,405
way.

541
00:12:55,934 --> 00:12:57,063
secondly, there

542
00:12:57,063 --> 00:12:57,843
isn't a coherent

543
00:12:57,843 --> 00:13:03,183
evidence base that suggests
that it is necessarily a factor

544
00:13:03,183 --> 00:13:05,585
in young people's mental health Thirdly,

545
00:13:05,795 --> 00:13:09,335
there's also an argument to suggest that
by implementing a ban for under sixteens,

546
00:13:09,485 --> 00:13:10,685
what you're effectively doing.

547
00:13:11,015 --> 00:13:12,905
Is, letting these companies

548
00:13:12,905 --> 00:13:13,955
off the hook slightly

549
00:13:14,075 --> 00:13:16,745
because rather than requiring
them to make meaningful changes

550
00:13:16,745 --> 00:13:19,565
to the manner in which they operate,
you're instead just cutting off a sway

551
00:13:19,565 --> 00:13:20,585
of people from using them.

552
00:13:20,825 --> 00:13:23,855
Whereas it could be argued,
that it would make more sense to

553
00:13:23,855 --> 00:13:25,685
attempt to make them change the

554
00:13:25,685 --> 00:13:28,745
way in which, for example,
algorithmic, content delivery

555
00:13:28,745 --> 00:13:32,555
functions or the concept of an infinite
scroll, which would theoretically

556
00:13:32,555 --> 00:13:34,055
benefit all users rather

557
00:13:34,055 --> 00:13:34,625
than simply

558
00:13:34,625 --> 00:13:36,920
preventing one contingent
from using the platforms.

559
00:13:37,145 --> 00:13:38,375
I don't know how I feel about this.

560
00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:43,115
'cause I think my analogy for this always
is, tobacco and you are right there.

561
00:13:43,115 --> 00:13:45,185
It is different in the sense
that we just had ev straight up

562
00:13:45,185 --> 00:13:47,405
and down evidence eventually by
a certain point that was killing

563
00:13:47,405 --> 00:13:47,795
people.

564
00:13:47,795 --> 00:13:47,855
Yeah.

565
00:13:48,335 --> 00:13:51,725
But you could say all the same things,
which is that kids, would send their

566
00:13:51,725 --> 00:13:53,345
mate, their older mate to the shop to buy,

567
00:13:53,945 --> 00:13:56,975
cigarettes for them or or actually,
should we ban it for kids or

568
00:13:56,975 --> 00:13:59,345
should we try and drive the tobacco
companies outta business altogether?

569
00:13:59,758 --> 00:14:02,698
and I think all those things are
true, but I think there is some social

570
00:14:02,698 --> 00:14:06,208
power in saying we think these things
are poisonous and we are against

571
00:14:06,208 --> 00:14:07,948
them even if people get round that

572
00:14:08,893 --> 00:14:09,583
this is completely fair.

573
00:14:09,583 --> 00:14:09,703
And I

574
00:14:09,703 --> 00:14:10,363
completely agree with you.

575
00:14:10,363 --> 00:14:10,633
I suppose

576
00:14:10,633 --> 00:14:11,683
the other point that I would make,

577
00:14:12,193 --> 00:14:14,953
which is I think slightly ignored in this

578
00:14:14,953 --> 00:14:16,303
debate, is the extent to which,

579
00:14:16,733 --> 00:14:17,903
over the course of the past decade, these

580
00:14:17,903 --> 00:14:18,593
platforms have become

581
00:14:18,593 --> 00:14:19,283
infrastructural.

582
00:14:19,994 --> 00:14:20,414
they're not

583
00:14:20,444 --> 00:14:21,884
elective really anymore.

584
00:14:21,914 --> 00:14:23,474
There is a certain extent to which.

585
00:14:23,654 --> 00:14:26,294
Significant sways of modern life require

586
00:14:26,294 --> 00:14:26,414
the

587
00:14:26,414 --> 00:14:27,644
ability to navigate these

588
00:14:27,644 --> 00:14:28,184
platforms,

589
00:14:28,364 --> 00:14:32,354
whether it be for social reasons or
increasingly for administrative reasons.

590
00:14:32,594 --> 00:14:33,014
There's also

591
00:14:33,014 --> 00:14:34,064
the fact that, okay, so

592
00:14:34,394 --> 00:14:35,024
16 year olds are

593
00:14:35,024 --> 00:14:35,534
going to be given the

594
00:14:35,534 --> 00:14:36,014
vote, right?

595
00:14:37,154 --> 00:14:38,414
Where, do most young people

596
00:14:38,414 --> 00:14:39,704
currently get their news from?

597
00:14:40,319 --> 00:14:40,469
Oh,

598
00:14:40,469 --> 00:14:41,219
it's social media.

599
00:14:41,669 --> 00:14:41,789
Do you

600
00:14:41,789 --> 00:14:42,179
wanna, cut

601
00:14:42,179 --> 00:14:42,869
off the place

602
00:14:42,869 --> 00:14:44,759
that they are informed
about the world, whilst at

603
00:14:44,759 --> 00:14:44,999
the same

604
00:14:44,999 --> 00:14:46,769
time giving them the power to

605
00:14:47,309 --> 00:14:49,799
affect the movement of that world in

606
00:14:49,799 --> 00:14:50,429
a more significant

607
00:14:50,429 --> 00:14:50,579
sense?

608
00:14:50,579 --> 00:14:50,939
I dunno,

609
00:14:51,179 --> 00:14:51,479
it,

610
00:14:51,479 --> 00:14:52,979
you're not being socialist
enough here, Matt.

611
00:14:52,979 --> 00:14:55,439
What you need to do is mandate them
all to receive a copy of private

612
00:14:55,439 --> 00:14:57,689
Eye state issued copy of Private

613
00:14:57,899 --> 00:14:58,379
Are you somehow

614
00:14:58,379 --> 00:14:58,739
telling me

615
00:14:58,739 --> 00:15:00,299
that 15 year olds don't all private

616
00:15:00,299 --> 00:15:00,479
eye?

617
00:15:00,479 --> 00:15:00,839
Helen?

618
00:15:01,079 --> 00:15:02,069
I hear there maybe some of them

619
00:15:02,194 --> 00:15:02,394
don't,

620
00:15:02,429 --> 00:15:05,294
they're not meant to, but you can
send someone into the shop to get

621
00:15:05,369 --> 00:15:05,579
for

622
00:15:05,579 --> 00:15:05,639
you.

623
00:15:06,896 --> 00:15:07,136
so

624
00:15:07,406 --> 00:15:07,616
what,

625
00:15:07,616 --> 00:15:08,366
happens next?

626
00:15:08,416 --> 00:15:08,866
We wait for the

627
00:15:08,866 --> 00:15:09,526
consultation to

628
00:15:09,526 --> 00:15:09,796
end.

629
00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:10,726
Although, the

630
00:15:10,726 --> 00:15:11,446
Prime Minister

631
00:15:11,446 --> 00:15:16,516
has been making increasing noises,
about the likelihood of that

632
00:15:16,546 --> 00:15:18,526
being a ban in some way, shape or

633
00:15:18,526 --> 00:15:18,856
form.

634
00:15:19,306 --> 00:15:19,636
the House of

635
00:15:19,636 --> 00:15:21,136
Lords is obviously mad keen on this

636
00:15:21,136 --> 00:15:23,896
Baroness Kidron keeps slapping amendments

637
00:15:23,896 --> 00:15:25,366
onto every single bit of legislation

638
00:15:25,366 --> 00:15:25,696
she seems

639
00:15:25,696 --> 00:15:26,596
capable of doing.

640
00:15:26,986 --> 00:15:27,256
Yeah.

641
00:15:27,766 --> 00:15:29,626
she's she, this is

642
00:15:29,626 --> 00:15:30,916
very much her hobby

643
00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:31,186
horse

644
00:15:31,186 --> 00:15:31,486
and

645
00:15:31,556 --> 00:15:33,206
so this is be beam Kidd on the filmmaker

646
00:15:33,206 --> 00:15:33,446
isn't it?

647
00:15:33,446 --> 00:15:34,226
Who made a film

648
00:15:34,226 --> 00:15:35,036
IRLA few

649
00:15:35,036 --> 00:15:35,216
years

650
00:15:35,386 --> 00:15:36,076
Yes, Exactly.

651
00:15:36,346 --> 00:15:39,256
Which effectively radicalized
her into believing that

652
00:15:39,256 --> 00:15:39,496
all of

653
00:15:39,496 --> 00:15:40,306
these companies should be

654
00:15:40,366 --> 00:15:41,596
fundamentally torn apart.

655
00:15:42,070 --> 00:15:42,450
so many

656
00:15:42,575 --> 00:15:43,985
of these attempted amendments

657
00:15:44,233 --> 00:15:46,693
there was one that was almost put
through a couple of months ago

658
00:15:46,933 --> 00:15:49,723
that would basically abandon under
sixteens from using Wikipedia.

659
00:15:49,983 --> 00:15:51,843
because it was so broadly written.

660
00:15:52,353 --> 00:15:53,073
there's currently

661
00:15:53,073 --> 00:15:53,973
one about

662
00:15:53,973 --> 00:15:54,903
chatbots that

663
00:15:54,903 --> 00:15:56,313
Barron's Kidron attempted to implement

664
00:15:56,313 --> 00:15:57,123
into a piece of

665
00:15:57,123 --> 00:16:02,803
legislation which would, I think
seemingly ban, ban kids from using, any

666
00:16:02,803 --> 00:16:03,883
sort of AI

667
00:16:04,033 --> 00:16:04,423
related

668
00:16:04,423 --> 00:16:07,033
thing, which if you consider
how much AI has been injected

669
00:16:07,033 --> 00:16:08,953
into all sorts of products becomes

670
00:16:08,953 --> 00:16:09,523
problematic.

671
00:16:09,555 --> 00:16:09,900
and this

672
00:16:09,935 --> 00:16:14,855
was also in evidence at a common select
committee the other week when, once

673
00:16:14,855 --> 00:16:18,965
again the charming, I need to remember
this ma name will Freda Fernandez,

674
00:16:18,995 --> 00:16:20,495
who is, the spokesperson

675
00:16:20,495 --> 00:16:22,985
for X on safety and

676
00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:23,830
thankless job.

677
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:24,130
You

678
00:16:24,485 --> 00:16:24,995
You know what?

679
00:16:25,055 --> 00:16:25,265
I

680
00:16:25,265 --> 00:16:25,985
get the impression

681
00:16:25,985 --> 00:16:27,108
that he's very well remunerated.

682
00:16:27,695 --> 00:16:28,955
and I think

683
00:16:28,955 --> 00:16:29,945
he probably sleeps quite well

684
00:16:29,945 --> 00:16:30,185
at night.

685
00:16:31,055 --> 00:16:31,475
but he was

686
00:16:31,475 --> 00:16:32,405
quizzed about,

687
00:16:33,005 --> 00:16:34,445
X's algorithm and

688
00:16:34,445 --> 00:16:34,985
whether or not

689
00:16:35,075 --> 00:16:36,365
it's right wing or whatever,

690
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:37,295
and he gave

691
00:16:37,295 --> 00:16:37,925
some very smooth

692
00:16:37,925 --> 00:16:38,255
sounding

693
00:16:38,255 --> 00:16:39,155
answer about the fact

694
00:16:39,155 --> 00:16:40,115
that the algorithm was

695
00:16:40,115 --> 00:16:40,865
transparent

696
00:16:41,222 --> 00:16:41,346
and.

697
00:16:41,346 --> 00:16:42,276
It wasn't challenged

698
00:16:42,306 --> 00:16:42,966
by anyone.

699
00:16:43,086 --> 00:16:44,076
And that's because

700
00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:44,976
people don't really

701
00:16:44,976 --> 00:16:46,626
unders, They use the word

702
00:16:46,626 --> 00:16:49,296
algorithm as some sort of
complexity thing as though they

703
00:16:49,296 --> 00:16:49,746
actually know

704
00:16:49,746 --> 00:16:50,346
what that means.

705
00:16:50,826 --> 00:16:51,336
and in

706
00:16:51,336 --> 00:16:51,816
most cases

707
00:16:51,816 --> 00:16:52,206
they don't.

708
00:16:52,626 --> 00:16:53,706
And so currently,

709
00:16:53,706 --> 00:16:55,476
for example, the way the

710
00:16:55,476 --> 00:16:56,616
algorithm on X

711
00:16:56,616 --> 00:16:57,666
works is

712
00:16:57,666 --> 00:17:00,366
that basically it, it throws stuff into

713
00:17:00,366 --> 00:17:00,486
gr.

714
00:17:01,201 --> 00:17:03,481
and ize, and no one knows how AI works.

715
00:17:03,571 --> 00:17:04,351
So literally

716
00:17:05,251 --> 00:17:08,371
nobody on the planet you can write,
you can make that transparent.

717
00:17:08,641 --> 00:17:09,061
But

718
00:17:09,121 --> 00:17:10,951
there's a whole big black
box in the middle that

719
00:17:10,951 --> 00:17:11,881
nobody understands.

720
00:17:12,061 --> 00:17:13,081
And lots of algorithms

721
00:17:13,081 --> 00:17:13,351
are like

722
00:17:13,351 --> 00:17:13,801
that now.

723
00:17:13,951 --> 00:17:14,161
Like

724
00:17:14,161 --> 00:17:16,021
the major social platforms are all built

725
00:17:16,021 --> 00:17:16,381
on math.

726
00:17:16,381 --> 00:17:19,106
recommendation maths that is so complex

727
00:17:19,526 --> 00:17:20,336
that even

728
00:17:20,336 --> 00:17:22,376
the people who built it
can no longer really get a

729
00:17:22,376 --> 00:17:23,966
comprehensive picture of exactly

730
00:17:23,966 --> 00:17:25,376
how it functions in any given way.

731
00:17:25,426 --> 00:17:26,626
we haven't really talked about

732
00:17:26,806 --> 00:17:27,196
X

733
00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:32,986
being now a. full of very euphemistic
CSAM child sexual abuse material.

734
00:17:33,046 --> 00:17:34,786
Which is, it's stuffed with it.

735
00:17:34,786 --> 00:17:36,616
This is grok produced stuff.

736
00:17:37,006 --> 00:17:37,336
Is

737
00:17:37,336 --> 00:17:39,586
there any appetite to tackle
that in a legislative way?

738
00:17:39,766 --> 00:17:41,686
I presume this is in off comm's remit.

739
00:17:41,816 --> 00:17:42,236
Because it's

740
00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:43,226
AI services

741
00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:43,676
Yeah.

742
00:17:43,856 --> 00:17:44,576
That isn't

743
00:17:44,576 --> 00:17:45,266
currently

744
00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:46,676
under the terms of the

745
00:17:46,676 --> 00:17:47,246
Online Safety

746
00:17:47,246 --> 00:17:47,516
Act.

747
00:17:48,271 --> 00:17:48,601
Come again.

748
00:17:49,043 --> 00:17:49,223
Yeah.

749
00:17:49,283 --> 00:17:50,507
Ai, AI

750
00:17:50,543 --> 00:17:52,823
and chatbots don't currently
fall within the remit

751
00:17:52,823 --> 00:17:53,213
of the Online

752
00:17:53,213 --> 00:17:53,603
Safety Act.

753
00:17:53,603 --> 00:17:53,723
So

754
00:17:53,723 --> 00:17:54,683
it'll require the online safety

755
00:17:54,683 --> 00:17:55,373
Act to be tweaked.

756
00:17:55,553 --> 00:17:55,763
which

757
00:17:56,003 --> 00:17:57,683
even though they're within X

758
00:17:58,118 --> 00:18:00,908
but it's a separate, it's,
ai so it's different.

759
00:18:00,954 --> 00:18:02,771
child sex abuse material is

760
00:18:02,771 --> 00:18:03,221
illegal.

761
00:18:03,581 --> 00:18:06,161
is that not just a fairly
straightforward, should there not

762
00:18:06,161 --> 00:18:07,751
be prosecutions under existing law?

763
00:18:07,751 --> 00:18:09,041
Does it matter how it's produced?

764
00:18:09,116 --> 00:18:11,696
One might, one might argue out the, you.

765
00:18:11,696 --> 00:18:12,116
I'm, I'm very

766
00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:12,125
to,

767
00:18:12,126 --> 00:18:12,351
yeah.

768
00:18:12,371 --> 00:18:12,701
I'm

769
00:18:12,701 --> 00:18:13,421
very prepared to,

770
00:18:15,591 --> 00:18:15,811
yes.

771
00:18:16,196 --> 00:18:16,736
But, I suppose there

772
00:18:16,736 --> 00:18:18,836
are also questions about,
and without wishing to

773
00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:19,376
get into.

774
00:18:19,757 --> 00:18:23,306
Fairly unpleasant conversations about
gravity of imagery and things like that.

775
00:18:23,726 --> 00:18:29,006
There are questions about
the extent to which it is

776
00:18:29,246 --> 00:18:29,906
technically

777
00:18:29,906 --> 00:18:32,366
falling foul of CSAM legislation as it is.

778
00:18:32,576 --> 00:18:33,956
Whether it's a gray area, et cetera.

779
00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:34,826
And that, is very

780
00:18:34,856 --> 00:18:35,216
unclear.

781
00:18:35,456 --> 00:18:36,986
It's also riven with code words, right?

782
00:18:36,986 --> 00:18:37,371
It's all like

783
00:18:37,706 --> 00:18:38,216
liter

784
00:18:38,216 --> 00:18:39,086
or whatever it might be.

785
00:18:39,086 --> 00:18:41,336
Like people make these arguments that
what they're actually doing right.

786
00:18:41,336 --> 00:18:43,106
It's like an ambiguous teenage person.

787
00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:45,191
And I think that's something that the

788
00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:48,866
AI thing is also quite bad for,
'cause people can argue that I never

789
00:18:48,866 --> 00:18:50,486
prompted it to produce child sex.

790
00:18:50,571 --> 00:18:54,626
I, I simply said, I want an extremely
young looking girl, but of, legal

791
00:18:54,716 --> 00:18:55,001
age.

792
00:18:55,004 --> 00:18:59,654
It seems like there is an appetite
in the UK to dish out a beating

793
00:18:59,654 --> 00:19:00,824
to plenty of these companies.

794
00:19:01,004 --> 00:19:03,644
It doesn't feel like it's a
vote loser to say, certainly I

795
00:19:03,644 --> 00:19:05,324
want these, things dealt with.

796
00:19:05,504 --> 00:19:06,944
that's probably why
Stama is leading on it.

797
00:19:07,484 --> 00:19:08,062
it's something people

798
00:19:08,114 --> 00:19:08,414
want to

799
00:19:08,849 --> 00:19:10,049
It's, one of the few areas

800
00:19:10,049 --> 00:19:10,679
where he can do

801
00:19:10,679 --> 00:19:14,699
something that people seem to want
and the difficulty of course is that,

802
00:19:15,299 --> 00:19:16,409
and This is something we're gonna come

803
00:19:16,409 --> 00:19:18,479
up against again and again, is

804
00:19:18,509 --> 00:19:22,109
that there's an extent to which
one could argue these companies are

805
00:19:22,109 --> 00:19:23,429
fundamentally too big to regulate.

806
00:19:23,899 --> 00:19:26,059
What meaningful sanction can

807
00:19:26,059 --> 00:19:26,794
you place on

808
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:27,259
a company

809
00:19:27,259 --> 00:19:29,209
that is worth literally
trillions of dollars?

810
00:19:29,989 --> 00:19:30,469
I hesitate

811
00:19:30,469 --> 00:19:30,859
to say something

812
00:19:30,859 --> 00:19:33,919
Polyannish, but I'm about to
some sort of global coalition

813
00:19:34,189 --> 00:19:35,269
that, where all the

814
00:19:35,347 --> 00:19:35,869
world's countries

815
00:19:35,869 --> 00:19:36,799
come together and

816
00:19:37,069 --> 00:19:37,429
decide

817
00:19:37,429 --> 00:19:38,119
to regulate

818
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:38,269
in

819
00:19:38,269 --> 00:19:38,839
parallel.

820
00:19:38,864 --> 00:19:39,794
And that's definitely not gonna happen.

821
00:19:39,794 --> 00:19:41,864
When We've got a White House we've
aligned themselves completely with any

822
00:19:41,864 --> 00:19:44,234
sort of restriction on, social media.

823
00:19:44,624 --> 00:19:45,674
Is a, is an attack on free

824
00:19:45,674 --> 00:19:46,064
speech?

825
00:19:46,064 --> 00:19:46,244
isn't it?

826
00:19:46,604 --> 00:19:46,754
the

827
00:19:46,759 --> 00:19:47,684
State Department and the decline of the

828
00:19:47,684 --> 00:19:47,984
West.

829
00:19:48,044 --> 00:19:48,104
The

830
00:19:48,104 --> 00:19:49,814
State Department was quoted I think

831
00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:50,414
a week ago.

832
00:19:50,654 --> 00:19:54,344
Specifically calling out X as a
positive vector in the war against

833
00:19:54,344 --> 00:19:55,724
foreign influence and propaganda.

834
00:19:56,834 --> 00:19:57,074
what are

835
00:19:57,074 --> 00:19:57,464
you gonna do?

836
00:19:58,724 --> 00:19:58,964
that's

837
00:19:58,979 --> 00:19:59,669
oh, I'm depressed,

838
00:19:59,864 --> 00:20:01,244
It's a cheering note to move us

839
00:20:01,604 --> 00:20:02,294
it's Why you bring

840
00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:02,414
me,

841
00:20:02,429 --> 00:20:02,669
everyone?

842
00:20:02,669 --> 00:20:04,769
Oh, am I going look at Instagram
for a bit to cheer myself up.

843
00:20:04,769 --> 00:20:05,279
Look at some cat

844
00:20:05,294 --> 00:20:05,654
videos,

845
00:20:08,006 --> 00:20:10,946
let's come now to the local elections,
which are happening in a month's time.

846
00:20:11,036 --> 00:20:14,956
I know anyone watching or listening to
this would've been,  excited already.

847
00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:17,146
You'll have been watching all the
launches, collecting all the pamphlets

848
00:20:17,146 --> 00:20:18,346
you can get your hands on already.

849
00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:22,156
But they are going to be very interesting
and they're gonna be interesting partly

850
00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:26,956
because this is, I think, the first
big electoral test in a nationwide

851
00:20:26,956 --> 00:20:28,966
sense of Reform UK and the Greens.

852
00:20:29,206 --> 00:20:30,166
we had a little bit of it

853
00:20:30,406 --> 00:20:30,526
in

854
00:20:30,526 --> 00:20:34,366
the last general election, but since then
their numbers have absolutely shot up.

855
00:20:34,966 --> 00:20:37,306
we thought it might be worth  finding
out what reform and the greens

856
00:20:37,306 --> 00:20:39,316
actually propose in policy terms.

857
00:20:39,445 --> 00:20:43,329
obvious place to start on this is the fact
that, reform have, said that they would

858
00:20:43,329 --> 00:20:48,254
keep the triple lock on pensions, which
is a kind of really interesting, move for

859
00:20:48,254 --> 00:20:53,504
them because I, it was, I, thought it was
a brave and good and therefore I couldn't

860
00:20:53,504 --> 00:20:54,944
really understand why they had done it.

861
00:20:55,424 --> 00:20:57,194
They'd said they would scrap
the triple lock up till now.

862
00:20:57,644 --> 00:21:00,584
Essentially the issue with triple
lock, it was brought in 2010, As a

863
00:21:00,584 --> 00:21:04,214
way of saying we think that pensions
have not kept up with inflation.

864
00:21:04,394 --> 00:21:07,484
We're gonna introduce these three
measures by which it will always rise

865
00:21:07,484 --> 00:21:10,724
It's whichever is highest out
of inflation wage increases.

866
00:21:10,724 --> 00:21:11,540
Or 2.5%.

867
00:21:11,834 --> 00:21:12,074
Exactly.

868
00:21:12,074 --> 00:21:15,104
So even if inflation and wage increases
are both on the floor, it'll still go up

869
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:15,354
two and

870
00:21:15,354 --> 00:21:15,474
a half

871
00:21:15,509 --> 00:21:15,689
percent.

872
00:21:15,689 --> 00:21:15,809
Yeah.

873
00:21:16,055 --> 00:21:18,695
Then what happened is obviously
the acts as a ratchet and not

874
00:21:18,695 --> 00:21:21,395
quite often you can get two bumps
in a row from the triple lock.

875
00:21:21,395 --> 00:21:24,365
So one, one measure goes up one year
and the next measure goes up next year.

876
00:21:24,370 --> 00:21:24,430
Yeah.

877
00:21:24,575 --> 00:21:26,795
And actually it goes
up way above inflation.

878
00:21:26,795 --> 00:21:29,765
So we have this post-financial
crash situation in which, in real

879
00:21:29,904 --> 00:21:33,185
terms, working people's incomes
have been really stagnant, but

880
00:21:33,185 --> 00:21:34,565
there has been this constant ratchet

881
00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:34,985
effect.

882
00:21:35,525 --> 00:21:37,955
And this, the triple up brought
in for very good reasons.

883
00:21:38,105 --> 00:21:40,775
Pension of poverty was, extremely high.

884
00:21:40,895 --> 00:21:43,475
We've now got a situation actually
where I think if you take into account

885
00:21:43,475 --> 00:21:47,209
housing costs, pensioning comes,
are on higher than working income.

886
00:21:47,539 --> 00:21:52,999
So in one respect, what ev someone she
should be going is, thank God no, many

887
00:21:52,999 --> 00:21:54,859
fewer grannies are freezing in winter.

888
00:21:54,919 --> 00:21:56,659
Well done the triple lock job

889
00:21:56,659 --> 00:21:56,989
done.

890
00:21:57,754 --> 00:22:01,144
Unfortunately there is a problem, which
is that the older people who get the

891
00:22:01,144 --> 00:22:03,214
triple log also vote in enormous numbers.

892
00:22:03,394 --> 00:22:06,724
So no party is willing to
put any expiration date on

893
00:22:06,724 --> 00:22:08,614
this constant up rating.

894
00:22:08,734 --> 00:22:10,324
Essentially that outpaces

895
00:22:10,339 --> 00:22:10,770
inflation.

896
00:22:10,779 --> 00:22:12,840
And it's the only benefit that's
pegged that way, isn't it?

897
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:13,440
is that,

898
00:22:13,795 --> 00:22:13,875
Yeah.

899
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:17,610
in fact, working age benefits were for a
long time under the coalition were frozen.

900
00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:20,010
They weren't even being
uprated by, inflation.

901
00:22:20,010 --> 00:22:22,290
So actually losing money
in, real terms for those.

902
00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:23,220
so

903
00:22:23,235 --> 00:22:23,475
yeah.

904
00:22:23,535 --> 00:22:23,775
Yeah.

905
00:22:23,775 --> 00:22:27,795
So reform have just said within the last
week, oh actually no, the triple lock is a

906
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:28,010
lovely,

907
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:29,145
is a good idea.

908
00:22:29,145 --> 00:22:32,445
And it's, they're not the only
party being dishonest on this.

909
00:22:32,445 --> 00:22:33,465
See, also.

910
00:22:33,915 --> 00:22:37,005
Labor, the Conservative
party, the liberal Democrats,

911
00:22:37,663 --> 00:22:41,595
the greens have been dangerously radical
in that they propose only a double lock.

912
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:44,730
They proposed removing the two point
a half percent, and I think it's gonna

913
00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:47,010
be whichever is higher out of, earnings

914
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:47,400
increases

915
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:47,970
or inflation.

916
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:49,705
Has anyone gone for the quadruple

917
00:22:49,755 --> 00:22:50,025
yet?

918
00:22:50,745 --> 00:22:50,805
Is

919
00:22:50,825 --> 00:22:51,985
it gonna be like razor blades

920
00:22:52,735 --> 00:22:53,425
Just more

921
00:22:53,445 --> 00:22:53,665
and

922
00:22:53,665 --> 00:22:53,905
more.

923
00:22:54,150 --> 00:22:56,040
I think there was something, wasn't

924
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,300
that the last general election?

925
00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:57,750
I'm sure

926
00:22:58,020 --> 00:22:58,170
Cak

927
00:22:58,185 --> 00:22:58,755
proposed.

928
00:22:58,815 --> 00:22:58,935
Yeah.

929
00:22:58,935 --> 00:23:00,195
So it's giving me vibes.

930
00:23:00,195 --> 00:23:00,675
I remember this.

931
00:23:00,825 --> 00:23:03,975
The really interesting thing is, I know
I'm addicted to sticking my hand in wall

932
00:23:03,975 --> 00:23:07,575
sockets in terms of things I talk about
that the amazing defensiveness about

933
00:23:07,575 --> 00:23:10,785
this subject is really extraordinary to
me because as soon as you say, maybe we

934
00:23:10,785 --> 00:23:13,515
should have a double lock or a single
lock, maybe it should just go up with

935
00:23:13,515 --> 00:23:14,910
one measure of inflation and Yeah.

936
00:23:14,915 --> 00:23:16,095
And track the economy in that way.

937
00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:19,815
People say, I've worked hard
all my life, I've paid in.

938
00:23:20,085 --> 00:23:22,515
Why don't you take it off
immigrants instead, like the level

939
00:23:22,515 --> 00:23:25,635
of defensiveness that you might
slightly tweak this benefit Yeah.

940
00:23:25,635 --> 00:23:26,595
Is really extraordinary.

941
00:23:26,775 --> 00:23:30,315
People clearly take it in a
spirit of you don't value me.

942
00:23:30,735 --> 00:23:33,705
Anymore if you say you're gonna take
away the triple lock, like I see

943
00:23:33,705 --> 00:23:35,985
one of those things where it feels
like a very emotional response,

944
00:23:35,985 --> 00:23:36,225
whereas

945
00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,216
I think it sounds like you're saying
is that it's just not sensible

946
00:23:39,216 --> 00:23:42,246
to say for every square on this
chess board, I will put on double

947
00:23:42,306 --> 00:23:43,708
the number of grains of rice.

948
00:23:43,806 --> 00:23:46,266
At some point that's gonna
become an unsustainable thing

949
00:23:46,266 --> 00:23:46,386
to

950
00:23:46,386 --> 00:23:46,656
do.

951
00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:46,926
Yeah.

952
00:23:46,926 --> 00:23:48,816
If you follow the projection, there
would be a point at which it would

953
00:23:48,816 --> 00:23:50,376
consume a hundred percent of GDP.

954
00:23:50,376 --> 00:23:50,436
Okay.

955
00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:52,146
If we, we logically take

956
00:23:52,176 --> 00:23:53,136
it I don't see a problem with that.

957
00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:56,316
and I think it's pretty weird and
a bit, age phobic that you do.

958
00:23:57,576 --> 00:23:57,838
I'm just

959
00:23:57,951 --> 00:23:58,551
as the eldest

960
00:23:58,551 --> 00:23:58,796
in the room.

961
00:23:58,796 --> 00:23:59,516
Sounds good to me.

962
00:23:59,666 --> 00:24:00,126
Yeah,

963
00:24:00,186 --> 00:24:00,576
I know.

964
00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:03,486
the thing that's really interesting
about it is actually it has good

965
00:24:03,486 --> 00:24:05,076
support throughout all age categories.

966
00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:06,936
This is not a situation
in which absolutely.

967
00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:10,716
Pensioners love it and young people
think, sold you actually most

968
00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:12,306
people are in favor of the idea of

969
00:24:12,606 --> 00:24:13,296
the triple lock.

970
00:24:13,566 --> 00:24:13,926
Okay.

971
00:24:13,926 --> 00:24:15,936
But it's one of those things that
obviously at some point it's gotta

972
00:24:15,936 --> 00:24:18,876
end and it's really fascinating
game of chicken to see who will

973
00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:20,196
be the one who actually finally

974
00:24:20,406 --> 00:24:20,886
does it.

975
00:24:21,036 --> 00:24:21,276
Yeah.

976
00:24:22,026 --> 00:24:24,306
and given the mess that we've talked
about before in this podcast, that

977
00:24:24,306 --> 00:24:27,396
labor got into with even means testing
winter fuel payments or restricting

978
00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:27,786
them.

979
00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:28,836
still

980
00:24:29,046 --> 00:24:29,406
that's now

981
00:24:29,481 --> 00:24:32,001
in, that's now come no
radioactive, completely toxic.

982
00:24:32,046 --> 00:24:32,376
Yeah.

983
00:24:33,216 --> 00:24:37,453
there have been various other kind
of gimmicky, events from reform.

984
00:24:38,263 --> 00:24:40,573
Nigel will pay all your
electricity bills for a year.

985
00:24:40,633 --> 00:24:43,723
Nigel will give you some cheap
petrol, but just you, and it's

986
00:24:43,723 --> 00:24:46,063
become a very lotfi event,

987
00:24:46,573 --> 00:24:48,853
in exchange for lots of your
data about your voting habits.

988
00:24:49,183 --> 00:24:49,783
Which has been very

989
00:24:49,798 --> 00:24:50,278
useful,

990
00:24:50,608 --> 00:24:53,338
learned off Vote Leave, who did an
incredible job where they had a,

991
00:24:53,578 --> 00:24:56,698
essentially like a pools competition for
predicting, I think it was a football

992
00:24:56,698 --> 00:24:59,998
thing, and it was like the chances of
anybody correctly predicting all of the

993
00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:03,718
games was infinitesimal, but in order to
sign up for it, you had to hand over yes,

994
00:25:03,718 --> 00:25:07,858
very important, valuable data about your
address and email and, then you could get

995
00:25:07,888 --> 00:25:11,458
text messages from the campaign seen as
one of the great campaigning innovations

996
00:25:11,458 --> 00:25:14,638
of the 2010s then, because a lot of people
who weren't really interested in politics,

997
00:25:14,788 --> 00:25:18,298
but were the kind of people who might vote
leave if they could be got to turn out

998
00:25:18,328 --> 00:25:19,768
right, registered and signed up for it.

999
00:25:20,008 --> 00:25:22,528
So clearly Nigel Farage has
learned, a lot of stuff about

1000
00:25:22,528 --> 00:25:23,788
campaigning over the last decade

1001
00:25:23,833 --> 00:25:24,073
and a half.

1002
00:25:24,223 --> 00:25:25,873
That's learning from social
media as well, isn't it?

1003
00:25:25,873 --> 00:25:26,683
To go back to our first

1004
00:25:26,683 --> 00:25:26,833
talk,

1005
00:25:27,118 --> 00:25:27,338
the,

1006
00:25:27,613 --> 00:25:28,873
the email address point is actually

1007
00:25:28,873 --> 00:25:29,953
a really interesting and important

1008
00:25:29,953 --> 00:25:30,163
one.

1009
00:25:30,267 --> 00:25:31,993
So if you run

1010
00:25:31,993 --> 00:25:32,623
adverts,

1011
00:25:33,073 --> 00:25:34,333
on social media platforms,

1012
00:25:34,573 --> 00:25:37,663
you can create what are effectively
called lookalike audiences.

1013
00:25:37,783 --> 00:25:38,713
So the idea

1014
00:25:38,713 --> 00:25:39,163
is that

1015
00:25:39,433 --> 00:25:39,583
you

1016
00:25:39,583 --> 00:25:40,603
have a database of people.

1017
00:25:40,603 --> 00:25:41,773
You have their email addresses,

1018
00:25:41,953 --> 00:25:44,263
you feed them into for the
sake of argument, what, let's

1019
00:25:44,263 --> 00:25:44,833
say meta.

1020
00:25:45,463 --> 00:25:46,123
so to advertise

1021
00:25:46,123 --> 00:25:47,113
across Facebook and Instagram.

1022
00:25:47,424 --> 00:25:48,043
Meta will look

1023
00:25:48,043 --> 00:25:48,253
at all

1024
00:25:48,253 --> 00:25:48,493
of these

1025
00:25:48,493 --> 00:25:51,046
email addresses it has data about all

1026
00:25:51,046 --> 00:25:51,706
of those people.

1027
00:25:51,826 --> 00:25:53,296
And you can say, find me people who

1028
00:25:53,296 --> 00:25:53,926
are like that.

1029
00:25:54,256 --> 00:25:54,496
So

1030
00:25:54,496 --> 00:25:55,006
if you have

1031
00:25:55,006 --> 00:25:57,166
a database of reform
voters, you can give them to

1032
00:25:57,166 --> 00:25:58,696
meta and meta will go out and

1033
00:25:58,696 --> 00:25:59,356
find you people

1034
00:25:59,356 --> 00:26:01,486
who it thinks are like
those people and who

1035
00:26:01,696 --> 00:26:02,176
therefore

1036
00:26:02,176 --> 00:26:03,436
are also likely to vote reform.

1037
00:26:03,616 --> 00:26:06,496
So it becomes an excellent way of
multiplying your potential reach with

1038
00:26:06,946 --> 00:26:07,216
very,

1039
00:26:07,216 --> 00:26:08,101
highly targeted advertising.

1040
00:26:08,956 --> 00:26:09,136
which

1041
00:26:09,136 --> 00:26:09,256
is

1042
00:26:09,256 --> 00:26:11,206
also how MRP polling works, right?

1043
00:26:11,206 --> 00:26:14,626
Is you essentially correct for
sampling binds by looking at the

1044
00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:17,296
type of people demographically
that are in every constituency.

1045
00:26:17,296 --> 00:26:20,596
And then you can have more a sense of
what those kind of people you, where you'd

1046
00:26:20,596 --> 00:26:22,306
expect them to vote to check your waiting.

1047
00:26:22,696 --> 00:26:22,726
Okay.

1048
00:26:22,726 --> 00:26:25,846
But this is, which was now I think, it's
very hard to talk about how politics has

1049
00:26:25,846 --> 00:26:28,516
changed just due to the huge amounts of
data that we have on people, but they,

1050
00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:30,826
those are two very obvious examples.

1051
00:26:31,096 --> 00:26:31,186
Yeah.

1052
00:26:31,186 --> 00:26:33,796
However, there is also still a place
for the brute force, 'Would you

1053
00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:38,086
like some free money?' Approach to
politics also still very popular.

1054
00:26:38,086 --> 00:26:38,476
Very

1055
00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:38,866
popular,

1056
00:26:38,896 --> 00:26:39,196
yeah.

1057
00:26:39,376 --> 00:26:43,033
But the problem that is still
dogging reform is personnel.

1058
00:26:43,033 --> 00:26:43,663
related.

1059
00:26:43,723 --> 00:26:45,553
That's a bit of a
euphemistic way of putting

1060
00:26:45,558 --> 00:26:46,728
It They will keep on recruiting

1061
00:26:46,728 --> 00:26:47,358
those Nazis.

1062
00:26:48,058 --> 00:26:48,278
do

1063
00:26:48,278 --> 00:26:49,723
you mean the Welsh
candidate who did the Hitler

1064
00:26:49,723 --> 00:26:50,083
salute?

1065
00:26:50,088 --> 00:26:50,388
the one

1066
00:26:50,388 --> 00:26:50,868
I was thinking

1067
00:26:50,953 --> 00:26:51,253
Yep.

1068
00:26:52,153 --> 00:26:54,973
there's also Simon Dudley, the
housing spokesperson, who told

1069
00:26:54,973 --> 00:26:58,213
a discussion of Grenfell Tower,
that everyone dies in the end.

1070
00:26:58,588 --> 00:27:01,288
Do you know what I just
because again, wall socket

1071
00:27:01,423 --> 00:27:01,543
Wow.

1072
00:27:01,678 --> 00:27:01,768
Wow.

1073
00:27:01,858 --> 00:27:02,248
You're going to-

1074
00:27:02,578 --> 00:27:04,118
that wasn't, that comment was abhorent.

1075
00:27:04,138 --> 00:27:04,708
He shouldn't have said it.

1076
00:27:04,708 --> 00:27:07,888
It was a casual, flippant, cruel thing to
say when lots of people lost their lives.

1077
00:27:07,948 --> 00:27:08,068
Yeah.

1078
00:27:08,068 --> 00:27:11,818
The point he was making, which is that
post Grenfell housing regulations mean

1079
00:27:11,818 --> 00:27:15,238
that we haven't built a lot of housing
and that has caused a lot of misery

1080
00:27:15,238 --> 00:27:18,568
and unhappiness from people who are
stuck in moldy, horrible temporary

1081
00:27:18,568 --> 00:27:21,508
accommodation because of the missing
houses that haven't been built.

1082
00:27:21,568 --> 00:27:21,718
Yeah.

1083
00:27:22,018 --> 00:27:22,888
Was a fair one.

1084
00:27:23,038 --> 00:27:23,158
Oh yeah.

1085
00:27:23,158 --> 00:27:24,208
And it annoyed.

1086
00:27:24,268 --> 00:27:26,818
The hell outta me that everyone got
their free hit in on how terrible.

1087
00:27:26,818 --> 00:27:29,758
It's, we will never have the sensible
conversation that actually, for

1088
00:27:29,758 --> 00:27:31,978
example, the staircase requirements
and things like that Yeah.

1089
00:27:32,038 --> 00:27:33,238
Are stopping houses being built.

1090
00:27:33,238 --> 00:27:34,708
And that is a huge crisis.

1091
00:27:34,708 --> 00:27:36,598
That means kids are
growing up in hotel rooms.

1092
00:27:37,138 --> 00:27:38,458
Anyway, so that's my, I'm

1093
00:27:39,088 --> 00:27:40,978
today I've defended a reform

1094
00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:42,028
Look spokesman.

1095
00:27:42,088 --> 00:27:42,178
I

1096
00:27:42,198 --> 00:27:44,473
at you're sticking
forks into every socket.

1097
00:27:44,473 --> 00:27:45,283
you can find.

1098
00:27:45,763 --> 00:27:46,543
let's keep playing.

1099
00:27:46,543 --> 00:27:47,083
I love this.

1100
00:27:47,518 --> 00:27:48,478
but Hitler salute guy.

1101
00:27:48,538 --> 00:27:49,588
I'm against that just

1102
00:27:49,603 --> 00:27:49,723
for

1103
00:27:49,723 --> 00:27:50,143
clarification.

1104
00:27:50,143 --> 00:27:50,623
Interesting.

1105
00:27:50,623 --> 00:27:51,163
Interesting.

1106
00:27:51,163 --> 00:27:51,463
Okay.

1107
00:27:52,423 --> 00:27:55,303
but they, I mean they keep having
these, they've got their, they've

1108
00:27:55,303 --> 00:27:56,803
got their grab bag of former Tories.

1109
00:27:57,264 --> 00:27:59,443
many of the, best and brightest

1110
00:28:00,208 --> 00:28:01,138
you're talking about Bobby J

1111
00:28:01,153 --> 00:28:02,713
aren't Zha wick Braman,

1112
00:28:03,313 --> 00:28:06,523
which set do you think puls, boas,
voters the most, do you think

1113
00:28:06,523 --> 00:28:11,203
it's the sort of Nazi salutes and,
Grenfell appalling tasters or the,

1114
00:28:12,163 --> 00:28:13,363
the many members of Boris Johnson's

1115
00:28:13,393 --> 00:28:13,693
cabinet?

1116
00:28:14,053 --> 00:28:14,173
I

1117
00:28:15,583 --> 00:28:15,703
I

1118
00:28:15,883 --> 00:28:17,293
I don't think either of those are winners

1119
00:28:17,593 --> 00:28:17,683
in

1120
00:28:17,683 --> 00:28:18,133
terms of

1121
00:28:18,133 --> 00:28:18,973
attracting voters.

1122
00:28:19,013 --> 00:28:20,346
so I read Matt Goodwin's book.

1123
00:28:20,976 --> 00:28:22,686
I've done my, I've done
my Time in the Minds.

1124
00:28:23,046 --> 00:28:23,106
Yeah.

1125
00:28:23,406 --> 00:28:25,746
And one of the things that was
really interesting to me about that

1126
00:28:25,746 --> 00:28:29,496
book a, it's terrible, it's just
a, wine of white grievance and like

1127
00:28:29,886 --> 00:28:32,451
it is actually, it's x in book form

1128
00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:36,666
in that it's very poorly sourced,
overtly racist, and actually just

1129
00:28:36,681 --> 00:28:37,161
dull.

1130
00:28:38,046 --> 00:28:41,226
Not even the interesting racism,
Andy, that's what I really object to.

1131
00:28:41,466 --> 00:28:44,466
But what's interesting about that is
he got absolutely slaughtered for that

1132
00:28:44,466 --> 00:28:47,571
book in the Spectator, in the critic,
in Unheard in all of the GB news.

1133
00:28:47,631 --> 00:28:48,606
On GB news.

1134
00:28:48,606 --> 00:28:49,536
He did a debate with Andy.

1135
00:28:49,536 --> 00:28:50,346
12 as a guy came.

1136
00:28:50,496 --> 00:28:54,366
And I thought, that's fascinating
that there is no solidarity

1137
00:28:54,366 --> 00:28:57,396
on the right for this guy who
is, who's just run as a reform

1138
00:28:59,016 --> 00:29:01,716
suggesting to me that the most
repellent figure in reform is

1139
00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,006
actually, it's Matt Goodwin.

1140
00:29:03,246 --> 00:29:05,496
Clearly other people who have
people who agree with his

1141
00:29:05,496 --> 00:29:07,446
politics hate him personally.

1142
00:29:07,446 --> 00:29:08,436
And I think that's very

1143
00:29:08,466 --> 00:29:08,976
impressive.

1144
00:29:09,036 --> 00:29:12,306
Do you think we can expect to
see Goodwin caping for restore.

1145
00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:13,296
no.

1146
00:29:13,296 --> 00:29:15,096
They really, hate

1147
00:29:15,126 --> 00:29:15,246
him.

1148
00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:15,996
Is he not

1149
00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:16,446
racist

1150
00:29:16,451 --> 00:29:16,591
enough

1151
00:29:16,591 --> 00:29:16,831
for that?

1152
00:29:16,896 --> 00:29:18,936
They think he's a liberal squish who's no.

1153
00:29:18,966 --> 00:29:21,006
'cause they think you were
in 2016, which is true.

1154
00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:23,736
He was writing articles for The Guardian
about how terrible Islamophobia was.

1155
00:29:23,766 --> 00:29:27,186
They think you are just, you are just,
you've just switched for, a tension.

1156
00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:30,216
Astonishing unanimity across
the right for the h Matt

1157
00:29:30,726 --> 00:29:30,906
Goodwin.

1158
00:29:30,906 --> 00:29:31,656
Very impressively

1159
00:29:31,656 --> 00:29:31,926
done.

1160
00:29:31,971 --> 00:29:33,411
So maybe it's something
we can all agree on.

1161
00:29:34,776 --> 00:29:35,346
I, thought it was

1162
00:29:35,346 --> 00:29:35,856
a bad book

1163
00:29:35,856 --> 00:29:38,166
and it turns out people who
agree with the politics thing's

1164
00:29:38,166 --> 00:29:38,406
a bad

1165
00:29:38,406 --> 00:29:42,666
book that, that's, but it's selling like
the clappers Andy, Sold more than my book.

1166
00:29:42,846 --> 00:29:44,106
So who's the real winner

1167
00:29:44,121 --> 00:29:44,301
here?

1168
00:29:44,798 --> 00:29:45,878
Should we come to the Greens?

1169
00:29:46,223 --> 00:29:46,373
why

1170
00:29:46,373 --> 00:29:46,823
not come to

1171
00:29:46,868 --> 00:29:47,108
green?

1172
00:29:47,138 --> 00:29:47,738
Okay.

1173
00:29:47,910 --> 00:29:49,050
their policies are.

1174
00:29:49,308 --> 00:29:50,598
double lock on pensions.

1175
00:29:50,733 --> 00:29:51,528
Very exciting.

1176
00:29:51,528 --> 00:29:53,898
And they've got a range of other
interesting proposals, haven't they?

1177
00:29:53,943 --> 00:29:54,243
Which

1178
00:29:54,363 --> 00:29:58,293
I went back and I read the Greens 2024
manifesto and the Reform 2024 manifesto.

1179
00:29:58,293 --> 00:30:00,333
And they are interesting
mirror images of each other.

1180
00:30:00,693 --> 00:30:05,013
So the reform is basically, we'll have tax
cuts, huge tax cuts for both individuals

1181
00:30:05,013 --> 00:30:09,308
and businesses and we'll pay for that
by scrapping all this net zero bollocks.

1182
00:30:09,608 --> 00:30:12,723
So essentially let's have loads of carbon
and that's how we make our sums work.

1183
00:30:12,723 --> 00:30:15,543
Also, they claim they were gonna get
50 billion of savings from waste,

1184
00:30:16,143 --> 00:30:17,253
which is one of those ones that I love.

1185
00:30:17,253 --> 00:30:18,423
It's like planks constant.

1186
00:30:18,423 --> 00:30:19,923
You just put it in there
to make your sums work.

1187
00:30:20,433 --> 00:30:26,283
So their one is basically tax cuts for
people we like funded by more carbon.

1188
00:30:26,643 --> 00:30:30,343
The Green manifesto was direct
money transfers for people we

1189
00:30:30,343 --> 00:30:33,873
like; pay rises for doctors
more money into the care system.

1190
00:30:34,113 --> 00:30:37,653
Teachers funded by a tax on carbon.

1191
00:30:38,013 --> 00:30:38,223
Huh.

1192
00:30:38,373 --> 00:30:42,183
So there there is like giveaway money in
exchange for, I think they were talking

1193
00:30:42,183 --> 00:30:45,753
about 120 pounds a ton tax on carbon.

1194
00:30:45,803 --> 00:30:46,063
Okay.

1195
00:30:46,846 --> 00:30:50,716
And, obviously this wealth tax of 1% on
people who have more than 10 million or

1196
00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:52,966
2% on people who have more than 1 billion.

1197
00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:53,206
Yeah.

1198
00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:55,186
Of whom they're only, they think 171.

1199
00:30:55,396 --> 00:30:56,206
So it's questionable.

1200
00:30:56,446 --> 00:31:00,826
But they were just very interesting of
two big money giveaway packages in various

1201
00:31:00,826 --> 00:31:05,236
ways, either through tax cuts or direct
spending funded for by things involving

1202
00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:06,519
carbon, which I thought you'd appreciate.

1203
00:31:06,811 --> 00:31:07,031
Yes.

1204
00:31:07,031 --> 00:31:07,351
That's very

1205
00:31:07,511 --> 00:31:07,711
interesting.

1206
00:31:07,711 --> 00:31:10,666
They've both got a, carbon based
thesis of the, of the economy.

1207
00:31:10,841 --> 00:31:12,011
and the other thing that's
really interesting is that

1208
00:31:12,011 --> 00:31:13,451
they've both now got podcasts.

1209
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:13,660
the

1210
00:31:13,705 --> 00:31:14,455
so both reform and the

1211
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:14,860
Greens.

1212
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,760
I've listened to the new Reform UK
podcast, which is fascinating to me.

1213
00:31:18,910 --> 00:31:20,410
The first one's out,
it's about 30 minutes.

1214
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,500
It is produced and sounds exactly
like a Radio Four documentary.

1215
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,712
So it follows Nigel Farage.

1216
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:27,010
It even has some criticism of him.

1217
00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:28,810
It has protestors blocking him.

1218
00:31:28,810 --> 00:31:31,360
It's never really said quite what
they object to about him, but

1219
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,010
there's, but then Boo Protestors

1220
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,910
and it follows him giving a speech at
a venue where it's a 900 capacity venue

1221
00:31:36,910 --> 00:31:38,740
and there's 300 people in the overflow.

1222
00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:42,220
So he goes and gives a speech to those
guys and does a q and a with them too.

1223
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:46,030
So the message throughout it is, the thing
that's also funny is it's voiced in A,

1224
00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:46,240
B,

1225
00:31:46,245 --> 00:31:46,445
the same.

1226
00:31:46,445 --> 00:31:46,565
thing.

1227
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,340
The same thing happened after
the Sermon on the Mount.

1228
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,440
There was actually an overflow The mount.

1229
00:31:50,690 --> 00:31:51,400
yeah, Small

1230
00:31:51,675 --> 00:31:52,780
there was A spin room as

1231
00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:52,960
well.

1232
00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:54,340
the spin doctors told you
what he actually went,

1233
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:55,300
Why he'd come out.

1234
00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:57,310
Christ has done a terrific job tonight.

1235
00:31:57,310 --> 00:31:58,270
He's really shown that

1236
00:31:58,270 --> 00:31:58,930
the peacemakers

1237
00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:59,650
are gonna be blessed.

1238
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:00,070
Yeah.

1239
00:32:01,070 --> 00:32:01,670
Big night for the

1240
00:32:01,670 --> 00:32:01,970
Meek.

1241
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:04,790
but

1242
00:32:04,790 --> 00:32:07,520
the thing that was interesting about
that was also the thing funny, if you

1243
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,220
listen to it, you're waiting for it
to turn into a kind of Look Around

1244
00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:13,670
You style spoof, because it sounds so
exactly like a, BBC dock around you.

1245
00:32:13,670 --> 00:32:16,760
And he goes, 'Nigel is coming down
the road.' You are waiting for it to

1246
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,650
go, like 'he's got an enormous fish',

1247
00:32:19,070 --> 00:32:20,925
but something completely
bizarre and random.

1248
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,350
So that's one approach, which
that it is not visualized.

1249
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,720
So it's up on YouTube,
but me's audio, imagine

1250
00:32:26,824 --> 00:32:27,724
old school podcasting,

1251
00:32:27,850 --> 00:32:31,452
whereas the Green's version of podcasting
is Zack Polanski's Bold Politics.

1252
00:32:31,565 --> 00:32:33,545
And this is much more what
you have come to expect

1253
00:32:33,550 --> 00:32:33,940
from

1254
00:32:34,477 --> 00:32:35,287
the world of vodka

1255
00:32:35,287 --> 00:32:35,587
casting.

1256
00:32:35,587 --> 00:32:37,477
So say bold, politics.

1257
00:32:37,477 --> 00:32:37,747
I'm sorry,

1258
00:32:37,747 --> 00:32:37,837
I

1259
00:32:37,842 --> 00:32:39,342
had bold like keys in a bowl

1260
00:32:39,342 --> 00:32:39,462
and I

1261
00:32:39,462 --> 00:32:40,692
thought, oh, that's another green

1262
00:32:41,017 --> 00:32:41,137
I'm

1263
00:32:41,137 --> 00:32:42,397
not totally sure about.

1264
00:32:42,427 --> 00:32:42,787
Okay.

1265
00:32:42,913 --> 00:32:44,017
Compulsory swinging.

1266
00:32:44,077 --> 00:32:44,317
Yeah.

1267
00:32:44,667 --> 00:32:47,397
It's bold, but I think it's got something.

1268
00:32:47,397 --> 00:32:49,677
Anyway, so it's, Zach
Polanski interviewing people,

1269
00:32:49,692 --> 00:32:50,232
basically.

1270
00:32:50,697 --> 00:32:51,597
Which is the classic.

1271
00:32:51,867 --> 00:32:55,317
Matt, you've probably listened to a
million of podcasts in this genre and

1272
00:32:56,277 --> 00:32:57,957
you see it in the Sphe a lot, right?

1273
00:32:57,957 --> 00:33:00,687
The same circulating group of
people all just interview each other

1274
00:33:00,702 --> 00:33:01,422
And Endless Or Gavin

1275
00:33:01,482 --> 00:33:02,162
Newsome Yeah.

1276
00:33:02,162 --> 00:33:02,242
You

1277
00:33:02,472 --> 00:33:04,062
Is there a nice brick wall behind

1278
00:33:04,062 --> 00:33:05,892
him with Yeah.

1279
00:33:06,132 --> 00:33:07,122
the standard podcast

1280
00:33:07,137 --> 00:33:07,317
setting.

1281
00:33:07,347 --> 00:33:07,617
Yeah.

1282
00:33:07,617 --> 00:33:07,827
And the

1283
00:33:07,837 --> 00:33:09,282
kind of slightly oste and the Branded

1284
00:33:09,362 --> 00:33:09,372
microphone.

1285
00:33:09,657 --> 00:33:10,017
Yeah.

1286
00:33:10,707 --> 00:33:13,287
but, it's, what's fascinating
about that is a, it puts him in a

1287
00:33:13,287 --> 00:33:14,937
slightly kind of beater role, right?

1288
00:33:14,937 --> 00:33:18,897
'cause he's the interviewer, whereas Nigel
would never do that, Nigel is the star.

1289
00:33:19,407 --> 00:33:21,987
So it's a slightly more humble
approach in that sense, but also

1290
00:33:21,987 --> 00:33:25,797
he has basically transplanted the
Corbe Knight intelligentsia wholesale

1291
00:33:25,797 --> 00:33:27,027
lock stock, and burial into it.

1292
00:33:27,027 --> 00:33:30,687
So it is James Medway who advised
John McDonald on economics, grace

1293
00:33:30,687 --> 00:33:32,967
Blakely, Rachel Shabby, Owen Jones.

1294
00:33:33,336 --> 00:33:36,126
the, failure of Your Party becomes
even more stark in this context, right?

1295
00:33:36,336 --> 00:33:39,666
Because there was clearly an establishment
there and a group of outriders and

1296
00:33:39,666 --> 00:33:44,676
thinkers and the Green Party has just
got them like they are now, all of them,

1297
00:33:44,676 --> 00:33:48,396
much more into Zach Polanski than, and,
essentially it's gonna be interesting,

1298
00:33:48,396 --> 00:33:51,846
we'll rerun this election with a
Jeremy Corbin who doesn't complain all

1299
00:33:51,921 --> 00:33:52,221
time.

1300
00:33:53,706 --> 00:33:54,786
You know what I mean though,

1301
00:33:54,786 --> 00:33:55,356
but like you do.

1302
00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:55,446
Yeah.

1303
00:33:55,506 --> 00:33:58,986
In the same way that, that, Reform podcast
is Nigel far going and speaking to people.

1304
00:33:59,016 --> 00:33:59,946
'cause he loves doing that.

1305
00:33:59,946 --> 00:34:00,666
He loves Jason.

1306
00:34:00,666 --> 00:34:02,226
People going, oh, the
Guardian won't like this.

1307
00:34:02,586 --> 00:34:04,716
Zach Polanski loves going and
talking to people saying, oh,

1308
00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:05,826
the Daily Mail won't like this.

1309
00:34:05,886 --> 00:34:06,036
Yeah.

1310
00:34:06,486 --> 00:34:07,056
Both of them

1311
00:34:07,326 --> 00:34:10,386
have got that always on
content creator ability.

1312
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:14,329
And David ppl, who ran the Obama campaigns
and the ka the Harris campaign, wrote

1313
00:34:14,329 --> 00:34:17,269
an op-ed in the New York Times last week
that said essentially this political

1314
00:34:17,269 --> 00:34:18,769
candidates now are content creators.

1315
00:34:18,769 --> 00:34:22,069
You need to have a studio, you
need to be 24 7 pumping out your

1316
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:23,509
messages, owning your audience.

1317
00:34:23,569 --> 00:34:23,629
Yeah.

1318
00:34:23,629 --> 00:34:28,519
Like on, And that is, to me, is what
distinguishes Nigel Farra and Zack

1319
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:31,189
Polanski from Chemi, badnock and Ki

1320
00:34:31,234 --> 00:34:31,324
it

1321
00:34:31,324 --> 00:34:31,834
all comes back to

1322
00:34:31,834 --> 00:34:32,674
social media again.

1323
00:34:32,674 --> 00:34:33,574
To square the

1324
00:34:33,574 --> 00:34:33,934
circle

1325
00:34:33,934 --> 00:34:34,294
slightly.

1326
00:34:34,864 --> 00:34:35,224
because

1327
00:34:35,224 --> 00:34:36,394
it's all about video now.

1328
00:34:36,424 --> 00:34:37,084
You need to

1329
00:34:37,084 --> 00:34:39,694
be punting out video because that
is what fills these platforms, and

1330
00:34:39,694 --> 00:34:40,564
that is where people get

1331
00:34:40,564 --> 00:34:41,014
their news.

1332
00:34:41,224 --> 00:34:43,564
And that's cross demographic now.

1333
00:34:43,894 --> 00:34:44,224
Fine.

1334
00:34:44,254 --> 00:34:44,464
Okay.

1335
00:34:44,464 --> 00:34:47,674
So older audiences still
go to mainstream media

1336
00:34:47,674 --> 00:34:48,004
first.

1337
00:34:48,004 --> 00:34:48,064
Yeah.

1338
00:34:48,274 --> 00:34:48,454
But

1339
00:34:48,454 --> 00:34:48,544
for

1340
00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:49,534
pretty much every other

1341
00:34:49,534 --> 00:34:50,464
Coterie 50

1342
00:34:50,464 --> 00:34:50,914
below,

1343
00:34:51,364 --> 00:34:51,634
like

1344
00:34:51,934 --> 00:34:52,504
it's, mostly

1345
00:34:52,504 --> 00:34:53,014
social based

1346
00:34:53,014 --> 00:34:53,674
discovery now.

1347
00:34:53,704 --> 00:34:54,184
It's,

1348
00:34:54,394 --> 00:34:55,174
it's in feed.

1349
00:34:55,354 --> 00:34:58,834
You see your headlines or people
commenting on the headlines, or

1350
00:34:59,344 --> 00:35:02,404
podcasters pretending to podcast about
the headlines that they might have read

1351
00:35:02,404 --> 00:35:04,114
yesterday or heard about from some other

1352
00:35:04,144 --> 00:35:04,684
podcaster.

1353
00:35:04,899 --> 00:35:05,674
It's, a soup,

1354
00:35:05,989 --> 00:35:06,469
basically.

1355
00:35:06,739 --> 00:35:06,919
Yeah.

1356
00:35:06,919 --> 00:35:07,069
And

1357
00:35:07,069 --> 00:35:09,379
the politicians that do well are
the ones who are good talkers.

1358
00:35:10,144 --> 00:35:12,844
That is the kind of table stakes
now to entry, which is why So

1359
00:35:12,844 --> 00:35:15,604
Angela Rain is going to launch a
podcast, which is exactly what you

1360
00:35:15,604 --> 00:35:16,834
would do if you wanted to be labor

1361
00:35:16,834 --> 00:35:17,164
leader.

1362
00:35:17,169 --> 00:35:17,949
Is it her and gov?

1363
00:35:18,334 --> 00:35:18,664
the first

1364
00:35:18,664 --> 00:35:19,144
episode?

1365
00:35:20,104 --> 00:35:21,364
I wouldn't bet against that.

1366
00:35:21,364 --> 00:35:23,014
That sounds like the kind
of thing that would happen.

1367
00:35:23,434 --> 00:35:24,184
It's very interesting.

1368
00:35:24,214 --> 00:35:28,894
This is a separate point really,
but podcasting has a reputation

1369
00:35:28,894 --> 00:35:31,114
or a feeling of being authentic.

1370
00:35:31,564 --> 00:35:34,564
And that's why you often get
people to say controversial things.

1371
00:35:34,714 --> 00:35:38,224
Stick their fingers in wool sockets on
podcast is 'cause people think, no one's

1372
00:35:38,434 --> 00:35:38,884
listening.

1373
00:35:39,124 --> 00:35:39,424
Or

1374
00:35:40,174 --> 00:35:40,414
I

1375
00:35:40,414 --> 00:35:40,624
don't

1376
00:35:40,624 --> 00:35:41,974
mean that about, I don't mean that about

1377
00:35:41,974 --> 00:35:42,454
their, this

1378
00:35:42,454 --> 00:35:45,297
podcast, which gets terrific
numbers,  it's more conversational.

1379
00:35:45,297 --> 00:35:46,137
It's more intimate

1380
00:35:46,287 --> 00:35:46,737
a medium.

1381
00:35:47,127 --> 00:35:47,637
It's cozier.

1382
00:35:47,667 --> 00:35:47,937
I think

1383
00:35:47,937 --> 00:35:48,177
that's the

1384
00:35:48,567 --> 00:35:48,807
co thing.

1385
00:35:48,987 --> 00:35:52,977
So both the things interesting is that
Nigel Fr was like a fake documentary.

1386
00:35:53,937 --> 00:35:57,297
that was essentially, it was, designed
to sound like BBC content, but it was

1387
00:35:57,297 --> 00:35:58,917
all about how great Nigel Farage was.

1388
00:35:59,157 --> 00:36:00,687
Which is really interesting
for that audience.

1389
00:36:00,777 --> 00:36:00,867
Yeah.

1390
00:36:00,897 --> 00:36:04,587
Whereas the, Zach Polanski one
is basically look at all these

1391
00:36:04,587 --> 00:36:05,667
people who are terrific friends.

1392
00:36:05,667 --> 00:36:06,387
You are among friends.

1393
00:36:06,537 --> 00:36:08,697
being on the left is
not a minority opinion.

1394
00:36:08,787 --> 00:36:09,837
Lots of us are socialists.

1395
00:36:09,837 --> 00:36:10,737
We should come out and say it.

1396
00:36:10,917 --> 00:36:15,897
And, creating that idea of a kind of
here is a, gang that you can be part of,

1397
00:36:15,997 --> 00:36:16,117
I

1398
00:36:16,117 --> 00:36:16,197
think

1399
00:36:16,197 --> 00:36:18,342
is really, It's really interesting,
again, it's, all things are

1400
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:19,332
fundamentally tied together.

1401
00:36:19,332 --> 00:36:22,602
But what we were talking about with the
changes in social media in the first part.

1402
00:36:22,992 --> 00:36:26,502
are Moving from a, social connection
where it's your friends and you're

1403
00:36:26,502 --> 00:36:28,362
seeing what they've done and, what
that and their holiday pictures to

1404
00:36:28,362 --> 00:36:31,539
a sort of parasocial one where you
are following these, high profile,

1405
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,039
celebrities or politicians, whoever.

1406
00:36:33,039 --> 00:36:34,569
And it's exactly the same
thing with that, isn't it?

1407
00:36:34,569 --> 00:36:38,379
It's you are being invited into the
gang and invited to, to, come along

1408
00:36:38,799 --> 00:36:41,499
with the person rather than it be the
politician at the lecter and who's

1409
00:36:41,499 --> 00:36:43,569
just making speeches and things.

1410
00:36:43,659 --> 00:36:44,199
And it does well.

1411
00:36:44,529 --> 00:36:46,779
there is an Army out there of
people, you will probably see

1412
00:36:46,779 --> 00:36:49,629
some of 'em in the comments under
underneath this, this very podcast

1413
00:36:49,629 --> 00:36:52,359
as we speak, who are absolutely vehement
a bit like they were with Jeremy Corbin.

1414
00:36:52,779 --> 00:36:55,149
they're fully signed up to the
calls and will accept no criticism

1415
00:36:55,449 --> 00:36:56,949
I see even legitimate things.

1416
00:36:57,049 --> 00:37:00,184
and Zach Klan's been very good at this
when there have been legitimate things

1417
00:37:00,484 --> 00:37:04,264
in, in the right winging press about, his
stances and his background, absolutely

1418
00:37:04,264 --> 00:37:07,714
said, these are smears and I will not
be cowed by, the right wing media.

1419
00:37:07,714 --> 00:37:09,964
And it's, that's a great
narrative, isn't it?

1420
00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:11,889
I will not be cowed by the right wing.

1421
00:37:11,889 --> 00:37:14,889
Media is a very good phrase under
almost any circumstance, no matter

1422
00:37:14,889 --> 00:37:16,149
what you've been caught doing.

1423
00:37:16,925 --> 00:37:19,940
and I, and my big criticism is Zach
Lansky, I think he's incredibly

1424
00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:23,660
talented political performer in a lot of
different ways, but that he has got a,

1425
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:25,460
an appetite and a talent for reinvention.

1426
00:37:26,090 --> 00:37:26,510
Yes.

1427
00:37:27,010 --> 00:37:27,230
he

1428
00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:27,350
was

1429
00:37:27,350 --> 00:37:27,695
Lib Dem.

1430
00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:29,690
He was at Lib dem at
the height of austerity.

1431
00:37:29,690 --> 00:37:29,750
Yeah.

1432
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:33,170
His, he changed his name because he wanted
to embrace his roots more authentically.

1433
00:37:33,590 --> 00:37:35,390
he's somebody who, he was an actor.

1434
00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:38,090
I think you find out all the
criticisms that people made about

1435
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,680
Tony Blair, he was a bit too

1436
00:37:39,695 --> 00:37:40,175
slick.

1437
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:42,980
I feel like there's a journey of
discovery that people are gonna be

1438
00:37:42,980 --> 00:37:46,375
gone when they, in 10 years time, they
might go, oh yeah, that guy, he was a

1439
00:37:46,375 --> 00:37:48,590
bit too slick, but works very well now.

1440
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:48,920
Works

1441
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:49,160
very

1442
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,340
well.

1443
00:37:49,490 --> 00:37:51,258
Can I give you my personal
scoop on Zach Polanski?

1444
00:37:51,355 --> 00:37:51,465
Yes.

1445
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:51,680
Yes.

1446
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:51,800
I was

1447
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,050
in the same gay pub as him on Saturday

1448
00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:54,320
night.

1449
00:37:54,575 --> 00:37:54,755
Get out

1450
00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:55,280
out

1451
00:37:55,477 --> 00:37:56,137
that's what they said to me.

1452
00:37:56,197 --> 00:37:56,407
No

1453
00:37:57,937 --> 00:37:58,687
brilliantly

1454
00:37:58,687 --> 00:38:00,547
with my top investigative
journalism hat on.

1455
00:38:01,117 --> 00:38:02,107
Didn't notice.

1456
00:38:02,857 --> 00:38:03,097
Hang a

1457
00:38:03,097 --> 00:38:03,277
minute.

1458
00:38:03,277 --> 00:38:03,787
He didn't notice

1459
00:38:03,817 --> 00:38:04,087
you?

1460
00:38:04,552 --> 00:38:05,002
no, you wouldn't

1461
00:38:05,017 --> 00:38:05,287
expect

1462
00:38:05,287 --> 00:38:05,437
him to

1463
00:38:05,437 --> 00:38:05,652
notice me.

1464
00:38:05,842 --> 00:38:06,132
Okay.

1465
00:38:06,142 --> 00:38:06,832
I didn't notice

1466
00:38:06,832 --> 00:38:09,082
him, We went in, had a look round thought.

1467
00:38:09,472 --> 00:38:09,952
Oh no.

1468
00:38:09,952 --> 00:38:10,612
It's all straight women.

1469
00:38:10,612 --> 00:38:11,242
It's all head nights.

1470
00:38:11,242 --> 00:38:11,872
We'll have one point

1471
00:38:11,932 --> 00:38:12,112
go

1472
00:38:12,112 --> 00:38:12,262
home.

1473
00:38:13,012 --> 00:38:13,312
Zach

1474
00:38:13,312 --> 00:38:15,412
Polanski was there on the
dance floor the entire night.

1475
00:38:15,412 --> 00:38:15,712
Apparently.

1476
00:38:15,712 --> 00:38:18,682
The only scoop I can give you, 'cause
of a friend of mine is very nice

1477
00:38:18,697 --> 00:38:19,117
shoes.

1478
00:38:19,733 --> 00:38:19,943
What was

1479
00:38:19,943 --> 00:38:20,003
he

1480
00:38:20,003 --> 00:38:20,453
dancing

1481
00:38:20,468 --> 00:38:20,768
to?

1482
00:38:22,088 --> 00:38:23,588
I do, I do not know.

1483
00:38:23,798 --> 00:38:24,248
I was, you're

1484
00:38:24,268 --> 00:38:25,523
Can you go away and do a journalism on

1485
00:38:25,563 --> 00:38:25,803
this, one.

1486
00:38:27,533 --> 00:38:27,823
It's

1487
00:38:28,208 --> 00:38:29,618
good playlist at the, food and Fruit.

1488
00:38:29,768 --> 00:38:30,068
Sam,

1489
00:38:30,068 --> 00:38:30,338
Island.

1490
00:38:30,848 --> 00:38:31,058
Free

1491
00:38:31,066 --> 00:38:31,418
drinks,

1492
00:38:31,433 --> 00:38:31,673
please.

1493
00:38:31,681 --> 00:38:32,123
Lovely.

1494
00:38:32,123 --> 00:38:32,273
There

1495
00:38:32,288 --> 00:38:32,468
we go.

1496
00:38:33,893 --> 00:38:36,563
We've entered this with Pon Con, so
that's good that we brought this house

1497
00:38:36,578 --> 00:38:36,728
full

1498
00:38:36,728 --> 00:38:36,938
circle.

1499
00:38:36,938 --> 00:38:38,858
We're finally going the proper podcast.

1500
00:38:38,858 --> 00:38:39,038
route.

1501
00:38:39,618 --> 00:38:39,628
Yeah.

1502
00:38:41,961 --> 00:38:44,361
We've got a very exciting new format.

1503
00:38:44,601 --> 00:38:47,541
this week we are going to be doing a play.

1504
00:38:48,411 --> 00:38:49,701
Adam, you have been following.

1505
00:38:50,001 --> 00:38:55,191
The very convoluted, long Messi and
expensive trial between Prince Harry and

1506
00:38:55,195 --> 00:38:58,971
colleagues and associated newspapers,
the daily mails, publishers, and I

1507
00:38:58,971 --> 00:39:00,891
believe you have got a dramatic extract

1508
00:39:01,131 --> 00:39:01,491
us.

1509
00:39:01,595 --> 00:39:04,235
we've talked a lot about this on podcast
three, so I'm not gonna go into all

1510
00:39:04,235 --> 00:39:07,893
the ins and outs of it, but essentially
the story of this at the, end of the

1511
00:39:07,893 --> 00:39:11,043
trial last week, David Sherborne, who
was the kind of inevitable barrister as

1512
00:39:11,043 --> 00:39:14,943
he is in all of these celebrity cases
for the, the, claimants was reduced

1513
00:39:14,943 --> 00:39:18,088
to, a closing speech in which he said
that he needed, although he couldn't

1514
00:39:18,088 --> 00:39:22,468
offer a lot of specific evidence for
instances of, unlawful activities being

1515
00:39:22,468 --> 00:39:23,878
undertaken on behalf of Associated,

1516
00:39:24,298 --> 00:39:28,348
he asked the judge to extrapolate from
what evidence he had been able to find.

1517
00:39:28,828 --> 00:39:29,008
his

1518
00:39:29,098 --> 00:39:29,218
on.

1519
00:39:29,608 --> 00:39:30,028
That's, not

1520
00:39:30,028 --> 00:39:30,808
allowed, is it?

1521
00:39:32,458 --> 00:39:35,668
this has been the ongoing argument in
fact between, Mr. Justice Nicklin and

1522
00:39:35,668 --> 00:39:37,018
David Sherborne throughout the trial.

1523
00:39:37,348 --> 00:39:40,198
and I do mean argument though, have
been, days I was in court, there was

1524
00:39:40,198 --> 00:39:44,938
some extremely, TSE words exchanged
between the judge, and, the barristers

1525
00:39:44,938 --> 00:39:46,048
for Prince Harry and his pals.

1526
00:39:46,415 --> 00:39:49,860
what, Sherborn said in his, in, his
final speech, and this lovely image,

1527
00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:50,790
but I'm not sure it's a winner.

1528
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:51,210
It's

1529
00:39:51,210 --> 00:39:54,240
a bit like playing pin the
tail on the donkey with us

1530
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:55,620
being partially blindfolded.

1531
00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:56,280
That is happened.

1532
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:56,880
the Tel donkey

1533
00:39:56,895 --> 00:39:57,315
traditionally

1534
00:39:57,315 --> 00:39:58,240
would well fully blindfold.

1535
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:58,600
Yeah.

1536
00:39:58,635 --> 00:39:58,695
Yeah.

1537
00:39:59,290 --> 00:39:59,650
Partially,

1538
00:39:59,685 --> 00:40:00,285
it just becomes a

1539
00:40:00,285 --> 00:40:00,525
very

1540
00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:00,765
easy

1541
00:40:00,765 --> 00:40:00,945
game

1542
00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:01,390
a look

1543
00:40:01,455 --> 00:40:01,725
if you're

1544
00:40:01,725 --> 00:40:02,085
Very,

1545
00:40:02,805 --> 00:40:03,075
it's not the

1546
00:40:03,195 --> 00:40:03,465
it's backend

1547
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:07,840
with us being partially blindfolded
and there being very little donkey

1548
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,640
left for us to pin the tail on.

1549
00:40:10,150 --> 00:40:12,250
which Does not sound like the
best party game ever does it.

1550
00:40:12,250 --> 00:40:13,480
But what he was saying in that case was

1551
00:40:13,690 --> 00:40:14,170
that, that

1552
00:40:14,530 --> 00:40:17,860
they've been unable to, to
find a lot of specific evidence

1553
00:40:17,860 --> 00:40:18,970
for instances of unlawful,

1554
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,800
un unlawful information gathering.

1555
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:26,470
Which he pins, if you like, on the fact
that, there is very little paperwork

1556
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:31,120
remaining from the period in question,
which does initially look very, suspicious

1557
00:40:31,660 --> 00:40:33,760
until you remember that the period in
question is going right back to the

1558
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,340
1990s and, into the early noughties.

1559
00:40:36,610 --> 00:40:36,790
And

1560
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:41,440
the point that Associated lawyers made,
when they were on the stand was that, you

1561
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,790
don't retain documents for all that long.

1562
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:44,740
Can I ask you a question, which is,

1563
00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:48,580
were there perhaps any amazing emails
or text messages between Prince

1564
00:40:48,580 --> 00:40:49,930
Harry and members of the press reveal

1565
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:50,560
during this trial?

1566
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:50,950
I see

1567
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:51,130
what

1568
00:40:51,130 --> 00:40:51,340
you are doing.

1569
00:40:51,340 --> 00:40:51,670
Objection.

1570
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:53,140
She's leading the

1571
00:40:53,265 --> 00:40:53,385
witness.

1572
00:40:55,125 --> 00:40:56,105
She absolutely is.

1573
00:40:56,385 --> 00:40:58,960
Harry's evidence right at the outset
of this case, when, everyone was

1574
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,140
taking a lot of, a, lot of notice of
who was turning up at the high court,

1575
00:41:02,650 --> 00:41:04,240
was that, he said it was heartening.

1576
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,300
He genuinely was on the verge of tears in
the witness box on the 21st of January.

1577
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,990
He said that the mail on Sunday had a
campaign and obsession of having every

1578
00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:13,510
aspect of my life under surveillance
so they could get the run on their

1579
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:17,050
competitors and drive me paranoid
beyond belief, isolating me, and

1580
00:41:17,050 --> 00:41:20,110
probably wanting to drive me to drugs
and drinking to sell more of their

1581
00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:20,515
papers.

1582
00:41:21,545 --> 00:41:24,035
It was suggested to him at that point,
actually back in the day, he was quite

1583
00:41:24,035 --> 00:41:27,215
keen on talking to, journalists himself
and members of his social circle, his

1584
00:41:27,215 --> 00:41:30,725
kind of friends who he, he was ping
about with back in the, early noughties.

1585
00:41:31,865 --> 00:41:32,045
were,

1586
00:41:32,045 --> 00:41:34,085
leaky that they,

1587
00:41:34,085 --> 00:41:35,015
were giving stuff to the press.

1588
00:41:35,525 --> 00:41:37,445
He, said, absolutely not
insist they weren't leaky.

1589
00:41:37,445 --> 00:41:39,935
He said he would immediately
cut off anyone he even suspected

1590
00:41:39,935 --> 00:41:40,775
of talking to the press.

1591
00:41:41,075 --> 00:41:43,955
"For the avoidance of doubt," he said,
"I'm not friends with any of these

1592
00:41:43,955 --> 00:41:45,425
journalists and never have been".

1593
00:41:46,085 --> 00:41:49,175
Now in a sort of mic drop moment
in the last week of the trial.

1594
00:41:49,325 --> 00:41:49,385
Yeah.

1595
00:41:49,489 --> 00:41:53,515
A tranche of Facebook messages we're back
to Facebook and social media again were

1596
00:41:53,515 --> 00:41:58,255
revealed between Harry and Charlotte
Griffiths, who was, the diary editor

1597
00:41:58,255 --> 00:42:02,035
on the Mail on Sunday, kind of high
society diary that she used to run.

1598
00:42:02,875 --> 00:42:03,475
they did.

1599
00:42:03,985 --> 00:42:08,035
Appear to show quite a lot of evidence
of him being friends with her, certainly

1600
00:42:08,035 --> 00:42:09,805
for a period the period in question

1601
00:42:10,045 --> 00:42:10,645
in December,

1602
00:42:10,645 --> 00:42:12,535
2011 to January, 2012.

1603
00:42:12,535 --> 00:42:12,805
Now

1604
00:42:13,075 --> 00:42:17,425
we have to specify, 'cause Harry is now
recreate, he's the sinner that repented.

1605
00:42:17,995 --> 00:42:19,585
he's entirely a campaigner
against the press.

1606
00:42:20,545 --> 00:42:22,915
he's very right on now him
and Meghan supporting all

1607
00:42:22,915 --> 00:42:23,815
sorts of progressive causes.

1608
00:42:24,025 --> 00:42:27,295
This is not that Harry, this is
Harry back in the days of, partying.

1609
00:42:27,325 --> 00:42:30,895
This is not long before those
infamous pictures of in Las Vegas,

1610
00:42:30,955 --> 00:42:31,825
questionable, fancy

1611
00:42:31,885 --> 00:42:32,485
naked

1612
00:42:32,485 --> 00:42:32,995
billiards,

1613
00:42:33,415 --> 00:42:34,645
fancy dresses is a bit before

1614
00:42:34,645 --> 00:42:35,005
that.

1615
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:35,280
This

1616
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,440
is bu out Vegas.

1617
00:42:36,690 --> 00:42:36,830
har.

1618
00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:37,350
this is

1619
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:38,290
Slightly

1620
00:42:38,290 --> 00:42:39,340
pre bu Mount Vegas, Harry.

1621
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:42,760
This is when he is training to apply
Apache helicopters, between two stores

1622
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,230
of service in Afghanistan for the Army.

1623
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,170
But specifically it's exactly
the period of the frost

1624
00:42:47,185 --> 00:42:47,485
bitten

1625
00:42:47,485 --> 00:42:48,025
penis,

1626
00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:49,120
ah, frost nipped.

1627
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:49,720
I think you'll find

1628
00:42:49,725 --> 00:42:50,125
technically

1629
00:42:50,655 --> 00:42:51,525
Frost nipped

1630
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:52,210
penis,

1631
00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:54,070
which he revealed

1632
00:42:54,090 --> 00:42:54,280
a, a,

1633
00:42:55,060 --> 00:42:55,660
that sounds

1634
00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:55,870
wrong.

1635
00:42:55,875 --> 00:42:56,875
That sounds really, wrong.

1636
00:42:57,100 --> 00:42:59,680
he revealed the existence
of his frost nipt penis in,

1637
00:43:01,354 --> 00:43:03,250
his autobiography spare
a couple of years ago.

1638
00:43:03,250 --> 00:43:04,300
So we cannot say we

1639
00:43:04,315 --> 00:43:04,375
are

1640
00:43:04,375 --> 00:43:04,765
invading his

1641
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:05,830
This is a privacy.

1642
00:43:05,830 --> 00:43:06,130
invasion.

1643
00:43:06,130 --> 00:43:09,220
he did himself with the peon detail
that he treated it with Elizabeth

1644
00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:10,360
Arden cream, which was the

1645
00:43:10,405 --> 00:43:10,975
same,

1646
00:43:11,185 --> 00:43:11,905
smelled like his

1647
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:13,500
mum, smelled like his mother.

1648
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:14,460
Why Have you written this

1649
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:14,620
down?

1650
00:43:14,860 --> 00:43:15,070
Is

1651
00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:15,580
Yeah.

1652
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,140
Is

1653
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:16,700
a point to

1654
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:16,820
this

1655
00:43:16,850 --> 00:43:17,300
line of

1656
00:43:17,365 --> 00:43:18,085
of questioning?

1657
00:43:18,336 --> 00:43:19,060
There is.

1658
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,939
I am merely, your honor, setting

1659
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:21,460
the

1660
00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:24,670
context for which the following
exchange of emails should be,

1661
00:43:25,570 --> 00:43:26,170
considered.

1662
00:43:26,260 --> 00:43:26,440
I

1663
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:26,980
have for

1664
00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:27,220
you

1665
00:43:28,540 --> 00:43:29,020
a script.

1666
00:43:29,875 --> 00:43:30,325
Great.

1667
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:32,836
Oh, would you oblige by
being Charlotte Griffiths?

1668
00:43:32,866 --> 00:43:33,106
In this

1669
00:43:33,121 --> 00:43:33,541
scenario.

1670
00:43:33,991 --> 00:43:35,131
Should I go like 10%

1671
00:43:35,146 --> 00:43:35,416
posh.

1672
00:43:35,776 --> 00:43:36,276
I've highlighted.

1673
00:43:36,496 --> 00:43:36,646
Go.

1674
00:43:36,736 --> 00:43:37,246
I would p

1675
00:43:37,306 --> 00:43:37,606
posh

1676
00:43:37,606 --> 00:43:37,726
it

1677
00:43:37,741 --> 00:43:37,981
up?

1678
00:43:39,886 --> 00:43:40,006
I

1679
00:43:40,006 --> 00:43:40,966
would absolutely posh it up.

1680
00:43:40,966 --> 00:43:43,306
What she said was that, she
got the bulk of her stories

1681
00:43:43,306 --> 00:43:45,226
from her high society friends.

1682
00:43:45,527 --> 00:43:46,517
Matt, this is very unusual.

1683
00:43:46,517 --> 00:43:47,687
We don't normally have dramatic

1684
00:43:47,702 --> 00:43:48,302
readings.

1685
00:43:48,662 --> 00:43:49,112
I'm, here for

1686
00:43:49,127 --> 00:43:49,217
the

1687
00:43:49,242 --> 00:43:49,532
Amra.

1688
00:43:49,532 --> 00:43:49,542
Yeah,

1689
00:43:49,622 --> 00:43:49,892
This is

1690
00:43:49,892 --> 00:43:50,222
great.

1691
00:43:50,582 --> 00:43:50,762
You've

1692
00:43:50,762 --> 00:43:50,852
got

1693
00:43:50,867 --> 00:43:51,287
a partner.

1694
00:43:51,287 --> 00:43:51,467
Hang

1695
00:43:51,472 --> 00:43:51,557
on.

1696
00:43:51,587 --> 00:43:51,707
Oh.

1697
00:43:51,722 --> 00:43:51,902
whoa.

1698
00:43:52,322 --> 00:43:52,682
Wow.

1699
00:43:53,462 --> 00:43:54,062
Sherlock Griff's

1700
00:43:54,092 --> 00:43:56,672
evidence in her witness statement on
the 6th of March was that she had high

1701
00:43:56,672 --> 00:43:59,972
society contacts from school days, and
she continued to socialize in high society

1702
00:43:59,972 --> 00:44:04,022
and with the, with the aristocracy,
throughout her, journalistic career.

1703
00:44:04,252 --> 00:44:06,772
I am gonna take the part of Prince
Harry in this, if that's all right.

1704
00:44:07,162 --> 00:44:08,182
Matt, appropriately can

1705
00:44:08,182 --> 00:44:08,272
you

1706
00:44:08,272 --> 00:44:08,632
take the role

1707
00:44:08,632 --> 00:44:08,722
of

1708
00:44:08,722 --> 00:44:09,382
Facebook

1709
00:44:12,622 --> 00:44:14,182
and, and give us the concept.

1710
00:44:14,272 --> 00:44:15,772
So we're reading from the bottom here.

1711
00:44:15,772 --> 00:44:17,662
This is the full exchange of messages.

1712
00:44:17,997 --> 00:44:19,702
I, really, emphasize it.

1713
00:44:19,702 --> 00:44:20,272
There isn't a role for

1714
00:44:20,272 --> 00:44:20,392
you.

1715
00:44:20,392 --> 00:44:20,482
You

1716
00:44:20,482 --> 00:44:20,662
just

1717
00:44:20,662 --> 00:44:20,962
have to sit

1718
00:44:21,052 --> 00:44:21,352
one out.

1719
00:44:21,352 --> 00:44:21,652
I'm sorry.

1720
00:44:22,117 --> 00:44:22,177
You?

1721
00:44:22,492 --> 00:44:24,472
be, if you wanna be Mr. Justice Nicklin.

1722
00:44:24,472 --> 00:44:26,602
You can simply sit there and
huff and puff a bit at this

1723
00:44:26,602 --> 00:44:26,692
if

1724
00:44:26,707 --> 00:44:26,797
you

1725
00:44:26,797 --> 00:44:27,007
like.

1726
00:44:27,067 --> 00:44:27,247
Oh,

1727
00:44:28,292 --> 00:44:28,572
okay.

1728
00:44:28,612 --> 00:44:28,822
okay.

1729
00:44:29,212 --> 00:44:31,522
But I just do have to emphasize,
this is not something we've made up.

1730
00:44:31,522 --> 00:44:33,262
This has not been written by
the private eye jokes team.

1731
00:44:33,262 --> 00:44:34,822
Like the WhatsApp messages
from the Prime Minister.

1732
00:44:34,822 --> 00:44:36,382
This, these are genuine.

1733
00:44:36,382 --> 00:44:38,662
I asked for these from,
from, the lawyers last

1734
00:44:38,662 --> 00:44:40,942
week, right back to my school
play where I didn't get a

1735
00:44:41,482 --> 00:44:41,662
good

1736
00:44:41,692 --> 00:44:42,292
job role in

1737
00:44:42,292 --> 00:44:42,502
that

1738
00:44:42,502 --> 00:44:42,892
either.

1739
00:44:42,952 --> 00:44:45,022
I was the narrator every
year in the nativity.

1740
00:44:45,022 --> 00:44:45,412
Still,

1741
00:44:45,412 --> 00:44:45,892
Scott,

1742
00:44:46,121 --> 00:44:46,612
that's switch.

1743
00:44:46,612 --> 00:44:46,942
It's noble

1744
00:44:46,942 --> 00:44:47,302
profession.

1745
00:44:47,337 --> 00:44:47,537
No,

1746
00:44:47,555 --> 00:44:47,777
narrat.

1747
00:44:47,837 --> 00:44:48,057
No.

1748
00:44:48,057 --> 00:44:50,452
You don't get, no, it's just
like you can read, but you're

1749
00:44:50,782 --> 00:44:50,872
at

1750
00:44:50,872 --> 00:44:51,232
acting.

1751
00:44:51,352 --> 00:44:51,442
it

1752
00:44:51,442 --> 00:44:52,732
prefigures a journalism career,

1753
00:44:52,732 --> 00:44:52,942
doesn't

1754
00:44:52,947 --> 00:44:53,017
it

1755
00:44:53,017 --> 00:44:53,217
No,

1756
00:44:53,267 --> 00:44:53,557
Yeah.

1757
00:44:53,977 --> 00:44:55,042
Source, yeah.

1758
00:44:55,047 --> 00:44:55,157
Okay.

1759
00:44:55,162 --> 00:44:55,492
Okay.

1760
00:44:55,492 --> 00:44:56,062
Right far away.

1761
00:44:56,062 --> 00:44:56,662
I'm so excited.

1762
00:44:56,722 --> 00:44:57,052
And

1763
00:44:57,052 --> 00:44:57,442
action.

1764
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:59,390
December 4th, 2011.

1765
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:00,860
8:36 PM.

1766
00:45:01,405 --> 00:45:01,615
it's

1767
00:45:01,615 --> 00:45:03,745
h in case you're confused
by name and picture.

1768
00:45:04,090 --> 00:45:04,480
kiss.

1769
00:45:04,926 --> 00:45:06,636
December 5th, 2011.

1770
00:45:06,786 --> 00:45:09,996
Hello, Mr. Ms. Shave was
indeed confused by both effing.

1771
00:45:09,996 --> 00:45:10,776
Awesome pick.

1772
00:45:11,016 --> 00:45:13,686
Do you get home okay slash did
you actually find your car and did

1773
00:45:13,686 --> 00:45:15,156
you beat Arthur down the motorway?

1774
00:45:15,156 --> 00:45:18,156
More importantly, what a
fun weekend of naughtiness.

1775
00:45:18,249 --> 00:45:20,916
Can't we all get up to No good
in the countryside every weekend?

1776
00:45:20,916 --> 00:45:23,496
Jam it smooches CG string

1777
00:45:23,781 --> 00:45:24,051
kiss

1778
00:45:25,146 --> 00:45:27,336
December 5th, 2011, 4:15

1779
00:45:27,336 --> 00:45:27,741
PM

1780
00:45:27,816 --> 00:45:27,876
Ha

1781
00:45:29,166 --> 00:45:29,376
It was

1782
00:45:29,406 --> 00:45:32,106
you and the blue girl that pulled
over to let me and Arthur Pass know

1783
00:45:32,436 --> 00:45:35,196
I did beat him, but by accident,
I think drove most of the way.

1784
00:45:35,196 --> 00:45:40,176
my eyes closed, I found myself
eating pizza with Skip of all people.

1785
00:45:40,296 --> 00:45:41,406
Two exclamation marks

1786
00:45:41,908 --> 00:45:42,156
was

1787
00:45:42,186 --> 00:45:42,666
without doubt

1788
00:45:43,206 --> 00:45:43,386
the

1789
00:45:43,412 --> 00:45:46,626
best of those weekends I've
been to what a crowd never lost.

1790
00:45:46,626 --> 00:45:49,566
So, much in 24 hours, Mr. Mischief.

1791
00:45:50,046 --> 00:45:51,246
How do I get that title?

1792
00:45:51,451 --> 00:45:53,166
I was surely no worse than anyone else.

1793
00:45:53,496 --> 00:45:53,946
Ooh.

1794
00:45:54,246 --> 00:45:56,406
Apparently a Cinderella
shoe was found outside

1795
00:45:56,413 --> 00:45:57,306
that door,

1796
00:45:58,116 --> 00:45:59,016
so it can relax.

1797
00:45:59,061 --> 00:45:59,691
Please stop

1798
00:45:59,706 --> 00:46:00,276
panicking.

1799
00:46:00,336 --> 00:46:00,546
Three

1800
00:46:00,546 --> 00:46:01,026
exclamations.

1801
00:46:01,026 --> 00:46:01,476
You've got a bit.

1802
00:46:01,476 --> 00:46:03,371
Terry Thomas at the end of August,

1803
00:46:03,951 --> 00:46:04,281
terrible.

1804
00:46:04,491 --> 00:46:04,821
hour.

1805
00:46:05,571 --> 00:46:06,061
December

1806
00:46:06,061 --> 00:46:07,041
6th, 2011.

1807
00:46:07,191 --> 00:46:07,776
12:17

1808
00:46:08,166 --> 00:46:09,666
Yeah, that was me.

1809
00:46:09,786 --> 00:46:12,966
My windows were so steamed up and
I'm afraid my little golf GTI was

1810
00:46:12,966 --> 00:46:14,646
just no match for your bloody Audi.

1811
00:46:15,036 --> 00:46:15,696
I had a children

1812
00:46:15,711 --> 00:46:15,831
of

1813
00:46:16,056 --> 00:46:16,536
moment.

1814
00:46:17,136 --> 00:46:17,466
This

1815
00:46:17,466 --> 00:46:18,396
is inexplicable.

1816
00:46:18,486 --> 00:46:20,046
Presumably by this she means
she looked out the window and

1817
00:46:20,046 --> 00:46:21,246
saw Pam Ferriss being brutally

1818
00:46:21,486 --> 00:46:21,576
in

1819
00:46:21,576 --> 00:46:22,026
a refugee

1820
00:46:22,026 --> 00:46:22,266
camp

1821
00:46:22,266 --> 00:46:22,356
in

1822
00:46:22,356 --> 00:46:22,506
Beck

1823
00:46:22,806 --> 00:46:22,878
I

1824
00:46:23,011 --> 00:46:23,331
dunno, I

1825
00:46:23,331 --> 00:46:23,491
can't.

1826
00:46:23,676 --> 00:46:26,196
I think that's a bit where, yeah, where
the car and that one continuous shot

1827
00:46:26,196 --> 00:46:28,956
where they're being shot at rather than,
or she looked out the window and realized

1828
00:46:28,956 --> 00:46:30,606
there were no babies in the world anymore.

1829
00:46:30,636 --> 00:46:30,756
Who

1830
00:46:30,756 --> 00:46:30,906
can

1831
00:46:30,906 --> 00:46:31,176
say,

1832
00:46:32,046 --> 00:46:33,876
how did you not end up eating Chinese?

1833
00:46:33,876 --> 00:46:34,776
You must be mad.

1834
00:46:34,986 --> 00:46:38,166
I dominated a duck pancake or two or five.

1835
00:46:38,226 --> 00:46:38,286
Wow.

1836
00:46:38,886 --> 00:46:39,396
I respect that

1837
00:46:40,086 --> 00:46:42,126
Mr. Mischief is definitely a compliment.

1838
00:46:42,126 --> 00:46:43,926
By the way, you weren't
worse than anyone else.

1839
00:46:43,986 --> 00:46:46,776
We were all competitively out,
naughty each other, which is

1840
00:46:46,776 --> 00:46:48,216
why we all had so much fun.

1841
00:46:48,606 --> 00:46:49,446
Few about the shoe.

1842
00:46:49,536 --> 00:46:52,386
I was very worried you'd have to spend a
fortune picking up the phone and ordering

1843
00:46:52,386 --> 00:46:54,456
a new pair of freebies from Amanda

1844
00:46:55,281 --> 00:46:55,371
Yes.

1845
00:46:55,926 --> 00:46:56,316
ps.

1846
00:46:56,460 --> 00:46:59,436
Speaking of which did you manage to
get your new phone number organized?

1847
00:46:59,586 --> 00:47:00,953
Good that she's doing the journalism.

1848
00:47:01,026 --> 00:47:02,166
I respect that she slipped

1849
00:47:02,166 --> 00:47:02,316
that

1850
00:47:02,316 --> 00:47:02,556
in

1851
00:47:03,561 --> 00:47:06,441
December 6th, 2011, 2:29 PM

1852
00:47:06,861 --> 00:47:07,071
Wish

1853
00:47:07,086 --> 00:47:07,138
it

1854
00:47:07,146 --> 00:47:07,986
had been Chinese, but

1855
00:47:08,001 --> 00:47:08,331
Skip

1856
00:47:08,331 --> 00:47:08,841
wouldn't allow

1857
00:47:08,856 --> 00:47:09,006
it

1858
00:47:09,636 --> 00:47:10,026
sadly

1859
00:47:10,026 --> 00:47:10,566
emoji.

1860
00:47:11,046 --> 00:47:12,096
No new phone number yet,

1861
00:47:12,216 --> 00:47:12,696
but sticking

1862
00:47:12,696 --> 00:47:12,936
with

1863
00:47:13,626 --> 00:47:14,136
redacted

1864
00:47:14,136 --> 00:47:15,216
phone number, but yet handed

1865
00:47:15,246 --> 00:47:15,516
over

1866
00:47:15,606 --> 00:47:15,726
for

1867
00:47:15,726 --> 00:47:16,056
now

1868
00:47:17,061 --> 00:47:17,691
serious

1869
00:47:17,691 --> 00:47:18,501
withdrawal symptoms.

1870
00:47:18,501 --> 00:47:22,041
Still had to make polite conversation
with strange people at a dinner

1871
00:47:22,041 --> 00:47:23,421
last night begging them for money

1872
00:47:23,421 --> 00:47:24,111
for charity.

1873
00:47:24,561 --> 00:47:25,011
Really

1874
00:47:25,011 --> 00:47:25,431
fun.

1875
00:47:25,641 --> 00:47:27,981
Not reunion with Josh.

1876
00:47:27,981 --> 00:47:28,551
Sounds fun.

1877
00:47:29,151 --> 00:47:30,381
Hope work wasn't too dull.

1878
00:47:30,501 --> 00:47:31,611
Wherever you are.

1879
00:47:31,971 --> 00:47:32,151
Just

1880
00:47:32,151 --> 00:47:32,901
to specify at this point.

1881
00:47:32,901 --> 00:47:35,728
He said he was completely unaware that
Charlotte Griffith was a journalist

1882
00:47:35,931 --> 00:47:38,781
when he first met her and wanted
nothing more to do with her when

1883
00:47:38,796 --> 00:47:38,841
he

1884
00:47:38,871 --> 00:47:39,171
found out

1885
00:47:39,171 --> 00:47:39,231
at

1886
00:47:39,231 --> 00:47:39,411
that

1887
00:47:39,411 --> 00:47:39,651
point.

1888
00:47:40,131 --> 00:47:40,591
December

1889
00:47:40,591 --> 00:47:42,216
7th, 2011, 6:57

1890
00:47:42,321 --> 00:47:42,921
PM

1891
00:47:44,031 --> 00:47:44,241
we

1892
00:47:44,241 --> 00:47:47,691
have been missing out on some serious
bans on the group email front.

1893
00:47:47,931 --> 00:47:51,591
I'm gonna go in big with an amazing
Marco Snapped to make up for lost time.

1894
00:47:52,011 --> 00:47:52,611
Few this week.

1895
00:47:52,611 --> 00:47:55,671
Hibernating in the frozen waste
under Parson's Green is, it would

1896
00:47:55,671 --> 00:47:56,691
be Parsons Green, wouldn't it?

1897
00:47:57,321 --> 00:47:59,241
New Ham was heading
towards this conversation.

1898
00:47:59,601 --> 00:48:01,371
Almost thirsty Thursday though.

1899
00:48:01,521 --> 00:48:01,971
Sounds good.

1900
00:48:02,541 --> 00:48:04,071
Josh is such a ledge.

1901
00:48:04,191 --> 00:48:04,281
Oh my

1902
00:48:04,311 --> 00:48:04,491
God.

1903
00:48:04,491 --> 00:48:04,611
This

1904
00:48:04,611 --> 00:48:04,731
is

1905
00:48:04,731 --> 00:48:04,851
like

1906
00:48:05,691 --> 00:48:06,921
just a, you get his flashback.

1907
00:48:06,921 --> 00:48:07,551
Purest

1908
00:48:07,551 --> 00:48:09,171
infernos in 2011.

1909
00:48:10,226 --> 00:48:13,701
calming any of anything to make anything
better, but January's oh, so far away.

1910
00:48:13,761 --> 00:48:16,551
I think a team reunite might be
an origin before the weeks' out,

1911
00:48:16,731 --> 00:48:17,181
non

1912
00:48:17,931 --> 00:48:18,359
December

1913
00:48:18,359 --> 00:48:19,216
14th, 2011.

1914
00:48:19,426 --> 00:48:19,981
7:34

1915
00:48:20,166 --> 00:48:20,661
PM.

1916
00:48:21,171 --> 00:48:22,701
Okay, I'm very unimpressed.

1917
00:48:22,701 --> 00:48:25,041
Your Skippy surfing seems to
have inadvertently trumped all

1918
00:48:25,041 --> 00:48:26,361
of the scandal on our weekend.

1919
00:48:26,631 --> 00:48:28,221
Damn, you bloody maverick.

1920
00:48:28,401 --> 00:48:30,291
And now you are all heading to BVI.

1921
00:48:30,411 --> 00:48:31,461
British Virgin Islands.

1922
00:48:31,821 --> 00:48:32,751
Double trumped.

1923
00:48:32,871 --> 00:48:33,831
Double hump.

1924
00:48:33,981 --> 00:48:35,061
Thirsty Thursday.

1925
00:48:35,061 --> 00:48:36,201
Plans kiss

1926
00:48:36,711 --> 00:48:37,181
December

1927
00:48:37,181 --> 00:48:38,121
15th, 2011.

1928
00:48:38,271 --> 00:48:41,151
3:00 PM I win right

1929
00:48:41,661 --> 00:48:41,901
me.

1930
00:48:41,901 --> 00:48:42,891
New heading to the B thes.

1931
00:48:42,891 --> 00:48:43,161
eyes

1932
00:48:43,221 --> 00:48:43,521
Got too

1933
00:48:43,521 --> 00:48:44,151
much shit to

1934
00:48:44,151 --> 00:48:44,451
do.

1935
00:48:44,751 --> 00:48:45,861
Got dinner with some friends.

1936
00:48:46,071 --> 00:48:47,511
Gonna be hung over again for the third

1937
00:48:47,511 --> 00:48:48,261
day running.

1938
00:48:48,741 --> 00:48:50,691
You missed a good party
Last night, Skippy was

1939
00:48:50,691 --> 00:48:51,261
on great

1940
00:48:51,261 --> 00:48:51,621
form

1941
00:48:51,891 --> 00:48:52,431
Ma.

1942
00:48:53,391 --> 00:48:54,031
January

1943
00:48:54,031 --> 00:48:55,311
22nd, 2012.

1944
00:48:55,521 --> 00:48:55,881
11:00

1945
00:48:55,881 --> 00:48:56,241
PM

1946
00:48:56,451 --> 00:48:56,721
hbo,

1947
00:48:56,871 --> 00:48:57,801
bomb.

1948
00:48:58,011 --> 00:48:59,991
we missed you so much
at Arthur's last week.

1949
00:49:00,051 --> 00:49:03,711
Skip cracked out some serious moves,
but I did pack for my three week

1950
00:49:03,711 --> 00:49:06,381
skiing holiday after a night with
him at the box and forgot to pack

1951
00:49:06,381 --> 00:49:08,631
skis, boots, jumpers basically.

1952
00:49:08,631 --> 00:49:10,101
I've been very cold since.

1953
00:49:10,281 --> 00:49:11,841
God damn drunken packing.

1954
00:49:12,261 --> 00:49:16,731
Any who after some chirping
in Valdi and Maribel.

1955
00:49:16,791 --> 00:49:17,031
Yeah.

1956
00:49:17,031 --> 00:49:18,351
Casual whatever.

1957
00:49:18,591 --> 00:49:18,801
No.

1958
00:49:18,946 --> 00:49:19,101
What

1959
00:49:19,311 --> 00:49:19,521
Eves,

1960
00:49:19,521 --> 00:49:20,001
sorry.

1961
00:49:20,541 --> 00:49:20,811
important.

1962
00:49:20,811 --> 00:49:21,081
Yeah.

1963
00:49:21,381 --> 00:49:25,011
I've arrived in clusters and been
watching some center barley snow polo.

1964
00:49:25,041 --> 00:49:27,561
Does that mean you are here and
I can dominate you off the black

1965
00:49:27,561 --> 00:49:31,191
runs slash steal one of your ski
boots and feel tres non guilty.

1966
00:49:32,721 --> 00:49:32,991
Is

1967
00:49:32,991 --> 00:49:33,771
there much more

1968
00:49:33,771 --> 00:49:33,831
of

1969
00:49:33,831 --> 00:49:33,921
that?

1970
00:49:34,546 --> 00:49:34,966
You got

1971
00:49:35,626 --> 00:49:36,086
one more

1972
00:49:36,111 --> 00:49:36,591
message?

1973
00:49:36,771 --> 00:49:36,921
and

1974
00:49:36,921 --> 00:49:37,041
it's

1975
00:49:37,041 --> 00:49:37,431
a goodie

1976
00:49:38,049 --> 00:49:39,639
January 22nd, 2012,

1977
00:49:40,179 --> 00:49:40,509
11:00

1978
00:49:40,539 --> 00:49:40,839
PM

1979
00:49:41,229 --> 00:49:41,709
Haha.

1980
00:49:41,709 --> 00:49:42,069
Charlie.

1981
00:49:42,189 --> 00:49:43,089
I wish I was there.

1982
00:49:43,089 --> 00:49:46,149
Sugar but unfortunately stuck
in Cornwall doing Army stuff.

1983
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:47,139
Sad face emoji.

1984
00:49:47,679 --> 00:49:48,849
Otherwise I would've
been there playing and

1985
00:49:48,849 --> 00:49:50,679
then drinking you under the table of

1986
00:49:50,739 --> 00:49:51,729
three exclamation marks.

1987
00:49:52,059 --> 00:49:54,009
The whole thing raised a load
of money, so I'm pretty happy.

1988
00:49:54,129 --> 00:49:56,799
Just wish I could have been there,
especially now that you are there.

1989
00:49:57,009 --> 00:49:58,359
Do you ever work?

1990
00:49:58,539 --> 00:50:00,159
Double exclamation mark, question mark.

1991
00:50:00,699 --> 00:50:02,799
Bummed beyond belief to
have missed authors as well.

1992
00:50:03,009 --> 00:50:05,709
I've been seriously busy since I last
saw you, but plan on getting back in

1993
00:50:05,709 --> 00:50:10,329
the mix for Feb. You best be around hope
you're really well Griff, miss arm movie,

1994
00:50:10,329 --> 00:50:10,839
snuggles.

1995
00:50:11,259 --> 00:50:13,299
I'm off comms all week in
case you think I'm being rude,

1996
00:50:13,479 --> 00:50:13,599
but

1997
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:13,839
keep

1998
00:50:13,944 --> 00:50:14,394
posted.

1999
00:50:15,009 --> 00:50:15,219
kiss,

2000
00:50:15,369 --> 00:50:17,624
kiss,  kiss,

2001
00:50:18,849 --> 00:50:18,999
kiss.

2002
00:50:19,534 --> 00:50:19,754
Wow.

2003
00:50:21,459 --> 00:50:21,579
And

2004
00:50:21,664 --> 00:50:21,784
we

2005
00:50:21,789 --> 00:50:22,179
have it.

2006
00:50:22,569 --> 00:50:22,719
Little

2007
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:23,139
insight

2008
00:50:23,859 --> 00:50:24,429
A tour de

2009
00:50:24,459 --> 00:50:25,269
force.

2010
00:50:25,269 --> 00:50:29,559
So what you're saying, Adam, is
he, did hang out with journalists

2011
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:31,449
and he was communicating and having

2012
00:50:31,539 --> 00:50:31,899
movie

2013
00:50:31,899 --> 00:50:32,469
snuggles

2014
00:50:32,469 --> 00:50:32,589
with

2015
00:50:32,649 --> 00:50:32,829
them.

2016
00:50:32,829 --> 00:50:33,069
This

2017
00:50:33,069 --> 00:50:38,379
would certainly appear to suggest that
at that point in his life, he had a, we

2018
00:50:38,379 --> 00:50:41,079
could go so far as, say, quite intimate
relationship with certain journalists?

2019
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:41,229
I

2020
00:50:41,229 --> 00:50:41,529
think

2021
00:50:41,979 --> 00:50:44,229
who among us has not had movie snuggles

2022
00:50:44,229 --> 00:50:44,439
for the

2023
00:50:44,499 --> 00:50:44,859
journalist,

2024
00:50:45,789 --> 00:50:45,999
so

2025
00:50:45,999 --> 00:50:46,629
that he

2026
00:50:46,629 --> 00:50:47,979
was without sin cast the first

2027
00:50:48,144 --> 00:50:49,389
another, And so now

2028
00:50:49,389 --> 00:50:49,659
the case

2029
00:50:49,659 --> 00:50:50,169
has ended.

2030
00:50:50,169 --> 00:50:50,229
the.

2031
00:50:50,454 --> 00:50:50,514
The.

2032
00:50:50,646 --> 00:50:50,976
what's the

2033
00:50:50,976 --> 00:50:51,306
upshot?

2034
00:50:52,086 --> 00:50:54,936
Mrs. Justin Nichol has retired
to, consider his verdict.

2035
00:50:55,146 --> 00:50:55,446
he said it's

2036
00:50:55,446 --> 00:50:55,836
gonna take him

2037
00:50:55,961 --> 00:50:56,191
some time

2038
00:50:56,556 --> 00:50:57,456
Betty wishes he could

2039
00:50:57,606 --> 00:50:59,376
We're expecting it at
some point in the summer.

2040
00:50:59,376 --> 00:51:02,616
In the end of it, I come back to the point
which, we made on this podcast the outset

2041
00:51:02,616 --> 00:51:04,536
of the trial in January, when Ian said,

2042
00:51:04,536 --> 00:51:04,806
can't

2043
00:51:04,806 --> 00:51:05,196
they both

2044
00:51:05,201 --> 00:51:05,461
lose?

2045
00:51:06,186 --> 00:51:06,546
and after

2046
00:51:06,546 --> 00:51:08,496
that, that dramatic rendition, I

2047
00:51:08,496 --> 00:51:08,856
really

2048
00:51:08,856 --> 00:51:09,096
would

2049
00:51:09,096 --> 00:51:09,366
quite

2050
00:51:09,366 --> 00:51:09,846
like them

2051
00:51:09,846 --> 00:51:10,206
to,

2052
00:51:11,166 --> 00:51:14,046
essentially I would be very
surprised if the case goes in,

2053
00:51:14,346 --> 00:51:15,426
Harry and the others direction.

2054
00:51:15,426 --> 00:51:18,366
And there is, beyond all this,
there is a really, serious issue in

2055
00:51:18,366 --> 00:51:22,296
this, which is Baroness Lawrence,
which a part of this case.

2056
00:51:22,524 --> 00:51:25,644
, the evidence on which her part of
the case was based largely came from

2057
00:51:25,644 --> 00:51:30,294
Jonathan Reese and Gavin Burrows to
very discredited, private detectives.

2058
00:51:30,721 --> 00:51:30,986
There

2059
00:51:30,986 --> 00:51:34,016
were, there are rumors, certainly
within the mail camp that she was not

2060
00:51:34,016 --> 00:51:37,106
keen to, as she was trying right up
to the last minute to drop out of this

2061
00:51:37,676 --> 00:51:37,856
this

2062
00:51:37,856 --> 00:51:38,456
litigation.

2063
00:51:39,626 --> 00:51:44,036
She was the, imp premature on this, the,
bit that made it serious, if you like.

2064
00:51:44,516 --> 00:51:48,476
this, was the, just as with the original
phone hacking scandal, which Les

2065
00:51:48,476 --> 00:51:48,896
we forget,

2066
00:51:48,896 --> 00:51:49,826
did start off with royals.

2067
00:51:49,916 --> 00:51:53,246
It was the hacking of Harry and Williams,
Royal household at that point, and,

2068
00:51:53,246 --> 00:51:56,276
their, and their kind of communication
secretaries and, and senior staff

2069
00:51:56,516 --> 00:51:56,786
that kicked

2070
00:51:56,786 --> 00:51:58,616
the whole thing off with the
news of the world in 2006.

2071
00:51:58,766 --> 00:52:01,946
No one got really, excited about
that scandal in 20 until 2011

2072
00:52:01,946 --> 00:52:03,716
when it emerged that news of
the world journalists were also

2073
00:52:03,731 --> 00:52:04,001
hacking

2074
00:52:04,001 --> 00:52:04,091
the

2075
00:52:04,316 --> 00:52:04,706
of

2076
00:52:05,396 --> 00:52:07,196
Millie Dowler, the Missing
School, G, who later

2077
00:52:07,196 --> 00:52:07,376
turned

2078
00:52:07,376 --> 00:52:07,466
out

2079
00:52:07,466 --> 00:52:07,556
to

2080
00:52:07,556 --> 00:52:08,186
been murdered.

2081
00:52:08,635 --> 00:52:08,785
The

2082
00:52:08,785 --> 00:52:10,885
hacking and illegal activities.

2083
00:52:10,885 --> 00:52:14,305
and taking to target, Doreen
Lawrence would be of a similar

2084
00:52:14,305 --> 00:52:16,885
kind of, gravity, I think.

2085
00:52:17,392 --> 00:52:17,602
if

2086
00:52:17,602 --> 00:52:18,412
that verdict goes

2087
00:52:18,652 --> 00:52:19,282
against

2088
00:52:19,402 --> 00:52:20,182
Doreen Lawrence.

2089
00:52:20,812 --> 00:52:22,402
And it's discovered that the
male were not doing that.

2090
00:52:22,462 --> 00:52:25,432
Not only is it completely destroyed
a relationship which was extremely

2091
00:52:25,432 --> 00:52:29,272
strong between the daily Mail,
and the Lawrence family, who,

2092
00:52:29,992 --> 00:52:32,992
the male famously championed them
right the way through in a way that

2093
00:52:32,992 --> 00:52:34,222
surprised quite a lot of people.

2094
00:52:34,942 --> 00:52:38,752
that, that, front page that said,
murderers, it names the, five

2095
00:52:38,752 --> 00:52:42,292
suspects, two of whom have since been
found guilty and sent to prison for

2096
00:52:42,307 --> 00:52:42,907
Stephen Lawrence's

2097
00:52:42,907 --> 00:52:43,237
murder.

2098
00:52:43,417 --> 00:52:43,627
Yeah.

2099
00:52:43,627 --> 00:52:46,507
I've said before that Paul Daker
literally had that front page in

2100
00:52:46,507 --> 00:52:47,797
his office, To him, that was the c

2101
00:52:47,797 --> 00:52:48,667
crowning pinnacle of his

2102
00:52:48,667 --> 00:52:49,177
editorship.

2103
00:52:49,177 --> 00:52:53,527
He stood up for a young black guy who
got murdered by, as he saw it, thugs and

2104
00:52:54,067 --> 00:52:54,967
and like to, to him.

2105
00:52:54,967 --> 00:52:55,777
So I think this case was

2106
00:52:55,792 --> 00:52:56,212
extremely

2107
00:52:56,212 --> 00:52:56,482
personal.

2108
00:52:57,058 --> 00:52:57,208
the

2109
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:59,698
result of that one, I think is the
really interesting one to watch.

2110
00:52:59,698 --> 00:53:02,818
'cause that's outside of the sort
of realm of celebrity tittle tattle,

2111
00:53:02,818 --> 00:53:05,818
however, upsetting these people may
have found intrusions in their privacy.

2112
00:53:06,088 --> 00:53:09,268
So there is quite a lot at stake
within this, and it will be very

2113
00:53:09,268 --> 00:53:10,978
interesting to see, that judgment

2114
00:53:10,978 --> 00:53:11,188
when it

2115
00:53:11,203 --> 00:53:11,473
finally

2116
00:53:11,473 --> 00:53:11,713
comes

2117
00:53:11,713 --> 00:53:11,833
through.

2118
00:53:11,893 --> 00:53:12,103
Yeah.

2119
00:53:12,403 --> 00:53:13,693
Okay, we'll wait and see.

2120
00:53:13,693 --> 00:53:16,243
And of course it's gonna be in
private eye when it happens.

2121
00:53:16,573 --> 00:53:17,053
That's it for

2122
00:53:17,053 --> 00:53:17,503
this episode

2123
00:53:17,503 --> 00:53:18,253
of page 94.

2124
00:53:18,253 --> 00:53:20,083
We'll be back in a
fortnight with another one.

2125
00:53:20,083 --> 00:53:22,663
Until then, thank you to
Helen, Adam, and Matt.

2126
00:53:22,843 --> 00:53:24,673
Thank you to you for listening.

2127
00:53:24,913 --> 00:53:29,218
If you would like to get more jokes,
stories, journalism, cartoons, all

2128
00:53:29,218 --> 00:53:30,883
of that private eye is available now.

2129
00:53:31,153 --> 00:53:36,133
If you would like to subscribe,
you can Do so@privatehyen.co.uk.

2130
00:53:36,557 --> 00:53:37,157
that's it for now.

2131
00:53:37,157 --> 00:53:39,377
Until next time, the only
remaining, thanks, go to Matt Hill

2132
00:53:39,377 --> 00:53:40,787
of Rethink Audio for producing.

2133
00:53:40,937 --> 00:53:41,417
Bye for now.