Jayne Ray: Hi, everyone! I'm Jane Ray, and I'm with my podcast partner. Andrea Stein. Jane, how are you? I am very well, thank you, and welcome to another episode of Joyous Journeys Over 60. We're really excited to be in the same room, we haven't been in the same room. You were on a big cruise for several weeks, or a week and a half, or something like that? I was, and I did a couple of recordings in our Facebook group. Yes.

Jayne Ray: about it, because I really do genuinely believe

Jayne Ray: that cruising for the… those of us over the age of 60 is really the ideal way to travel. You know, I said to you before we were recording, I would say a third of the people on that ship

Jayne Ray: had some type of mobility issue. And you know what? They were with others. You know, you didn't feel…

Jayne Ray: different. I mean, luckily, I'm still very able-bodied, and I'm very grateful for that, but I, you know, I saw so many people with walkers and canes and… and a lot of other younger and older people that were able-bodied, and… and just the blend is… is so there.

Jayne Ray: you know, somebody I know said, well, if I had to go on a scooter, I'd rather not go. And, you know, I think about that a lot, like, really? Would you miss this? It was fantastic. I would not miss that. I mean.

Jayne Ray: Hopefully, I say able-bodied for a while, but if I ever, you know, end up having to need a walker or a cane, or a scooter, I'd like to think I'd still do it. Absolutely. Well, it's good to have you back on solid ground, you know, and no shaking, and it's good to have you back. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'll share a little bit more separately about

Jayne Ray: the whole art and cruise experience. Yeah, it sounds like you came back with some extra pieces. I came… we went thinking we weren't going to get anything, and you know, you meet the artists, and you develop a relationship, and now I'm poor. So… but it was really a fantastic experience, but I am glad to be in the same room with you. There we go.

Jayne Ray: You know, one of the things, you know, particularly having been on a cruise with a lot of other people that are of an age.

Jayne Ray: You know, most people think of retirement as nirvana, right? You know, it's something we strive for, we save for, we're looking forward to the day that we don't have to work anymore, we have all this freedom, to do whatever we want. And… and it is nirvana in a lot of ways. Yeah.

Jayne Ray: But, you know, as we talked about on other episodes, and we're going to talk about in future episodes, you know, one of the things we're doing at Joyous Journeys Over 60 is really trying to dive into feelings. Yes. Because nobody talks to us, retirees, about feelings, right? What's the number one question?

Jayne Ray: How are you doing? Right. How's retirement treating you? Right. How's retirement treating you? As if it's like a, you know, an external being that has to treat us a certain way. And what's the number one answer? I'm busy. I'm busy. But I'm fine. I'm fine. It's great. It's great. Right?

Jayne Ray: And, you know, most of the time, maybe it is, right? I'm fine, I'm busy, I'm great.

Jayne Ray: And maybe there are days that you're not so fine, or you're not so busy, or you're restless, or you're sad, or, you know, a myriad of other emotions, and…

Jayne Ray: you know, truthfully, when you're in retirement, it is really hard to admit that, not only to others, but to yourself. You know, at any stage in life, retirement, pre-retirement, whatever, however old you are, you know.

Jayne Ray: Yes, we feel happiness, we feel joy, we feel all of that good stuff.

Jayne Ray: But we also feel the other side. I mean, we feel anger, we feel resentment, we feel hate even, we feel loneliness, we feel depression, we feel discouragement.

Jayne Ray: You know, and what I've started to realize, listening to a lot of Retirees

Jayne Ray: You know, you… you have more time to remember things.

Jayne Ray: people, situations, experiences. And some of these memories will make you smile.

Jayne Ray: And some of these memories will make you clench your fists.

Jayne Ray: And you relive all of that… that anger and worse that was there.

Jayne Ray: And…

Jayne Ray: When you are pre-retirement, well, life goes on, you go to the next projects, you need to work on the next conference call, the next report you need to write, the next meeting you need to attend, so you don't have time to dwell on that thing, so these feelings are much more fluid, right?

Jayne Ray: Now, there is no next conference call, there is no next meeting, there is no next report.

Jayne Ray: So suddenly, these feelings are not just naturally going away because you're busy with the next thing, they stay. And suddenly, you realize they take over, and so what are you gonna do?

Jayne Ray: Well, and it's interesting, it's almost as if it's, if you're a retiree.

Jayne Ray: you're not supposed to have those feelings. It's almost like you're not permitted to have those feelings. You know, before retirement, there is an expectation that life is a series of ups and downs, right? And because we look forward to retirement pretty much from when we start working, when you get to it.

Jayne Ray: it is supposed to be… Smooth. Smooth. And I think many who are not retired don't necessarily understand that, yes, this is what you were looking forward to. And in many ways, and on many days, it's great.

Jayne Ray: But there's such a range of feelings that you have. I mean, some of which are fear.

Jayne Ray: Right? I'm fear of the future. I'm afraid that, you know, I'm one diagnosis away from something. I'm afraid that I don't know what to do with myself. I'm… I relive, you know, all the… the betrayals in my life. I relive, you know, all of the insecurities in my life. Because you're right, you have time to think about it. And so there is a whole range of emotions

Jayne Ray: that… You know, we feel like we're not supposed to feel, and maybe we feel a little guilty.

Jayne Ray: feeling them, because this is supposed to be idyllic, right? It's supposed to be perfect.

Jayne Ray: you know, we saved our money, we, you know, we live in a great community, we're doing all the right things, and yet I'm sad.

Jayne Ray: You know, what makes us as people so unique, so beautiful, so complex.

Jayne Ray: We can feel 15 things at the same moment.

Jayne Ray: You know, so yeah, there is a part at any given time that I feel genuinely grateful or happy.

Jayne Ray: But in that same second, not one after the other, in that same moment, I also…

Jayne Ray: Remember what this person said.

Jayne Ray: 17 years ago, I don't know why that memory suddenly came up.

Jayne Ray: And I remember what… and my fist clenches, and I… my teeth gnash, and I want to just tell this person, well, that person was 70 years ago, you don't even know where it is, but your feelings are just as hot today as they were back then. So you feel that anger, you feel that resentment, you… you wish you could go back and give them a piece of your mind today, and…

Jayne Ray: So you feel all of this stuff, and then retirement tells you there's a beautiful golf course, there's a beautiful country club, there's a beautiful this, so… just don't feel this. Well, but it's in me. It's real! I can't deny it. And part of…

Jayne Ray: The challenge of retirement is to find a way to realize The beauty is real.

Jayne Ray: But these other feelings are also real. And simply to tell you, well, just don't feel it.

Jayne Ray: No, I don't think that helps.

Jayne Ray: Well, and I think, you know, what you said is really very profound, because the feelings are real, and

Jayne Ray: And I think some of us feel guilty for feeling them, where there must be something wrong with me because I'm sad today, or I'm confused today, or I'm reliving an old memory, or I'm angry today about something. You know, those are human emotions, right? But I think

Jayne Ray: as retirees, we're almost embarrassed that we feel that way, because we're not supposed to. So, I think the first message, if you take anything away from this episode, is it's okay, right? It is perfectly okay to, to feel whatever you feel. It makes you human.

Jayne Ray: We are real human beings, you know, and as such, the magnitude, the width of our feelings is huge.

Jayne Ray: This makes us who we are. It makes us beautiful.

Jayne Ray: And your retirement and my retirement are not going to be the same retirement. No! And I think that's also something to accept, that this image of the perfect retirement, it's kind of like when you first get married and you have children, and there's this image of the perfect family, right? It's, you know, there is no such thing as a perfect

Jayne Ray: retirement. There certainly is no such thing as a perfect life. And so, whatever you're feeling is right for that moment. Now, if you start to dive too deep into a depression or to a confusion, then it's time to think about perhaps, you know, talking to a safe

Jayne Ray: Therapist, or, you know, seeking some kind of help, but it is perfectly normal

Jayne Ray: Right. In retirement, to have those good days, those bad days, those, you know, those feelings that you're maybe not proud of. Right. Or those feelings that you feel like you shouldn't have. Like, there's so many shoulds.

Jayne Ray: Right? What is a should? I mean, should I feel this way? Should I do this? Should I not do this?

Jayne Ray: You know, those are feelings that in retirement, nobody talks about. But feelings are just real. It's not about, well, I'm not proud of this feeling, or I'm… but I'm proud of that feeling. Feelings are just real. This is who we are. We feel it. And this makes us human, and this makes life beautiful and complex.

Jayne Ray: At the same time, and yes, of course, if one feeling takes over.

Jayne Ray: And the only thing I feel is that sense of total discouragement, then, you know, as you said, then there's probably, you know, the… not the need, but there's… it could be helpful to talk to a therapist, you know, because if one feeling really becomes that… the dominating

Jayne Ray: you know, rhythm or malady of, like, okay, there is an issue there, But…

Jayne Ray: As a retiree, just as much as a pre-retiree, there are days you wake up.

Jayne Ray: part in your body hurts, so you're already angry about this, and then you remember that person, what he or she did, and it makes you even more furious. And then you get out of bed and slip, and now your knee hurts in addition to whatever hurt before, and you get even more furious. And then your partner makes a thoughtless comment, and then you get really angry, and then everything blows up, you know,

Jayne Ray: There's a screaming and yelling going on, and somebody says, well, but retirement should be really beautiful and happy, right? I said, yeah, get real, right? You know, and… but this is also a reality of… of a beautiful retirement.

Jayne Ray: That's, you know, it is not limited to one feeling. It's… it's… it's a whole rain… rainbows of wrong words, a whole…

Jayne Ray: color spectrum of… of feelings that there is. And…

Jayne Ray: you know, yes, and it is easy, but if you feel happy, well, you can share it. You know, everyone wants to hear why you are happy. Well, if I'm feeling miserable and angry and resentful, well, no one wants to hear it.

Jayne Ray: So how do you… how do you deal with it? How do you express that feeling? Because that, even more so, needs a way to come out. That pressure that this feeling creates in you still needs to find a valve, exhaust valve, you know, to get out.

Jayne Ray: Where do you find that? And that's the hardest thing. Like, you asked me before we started recording, who would I feel comfortable

Jayne Ray: sharing those feelings with. And for me personally, I'm very extroverted on the outside, but very, very private on the inside, and the answer for me is nobody. Because…

Jayne Ray: when we express these emotions, it might not be the cleanest language that comes out of our mouth, right? I would take… plead the 50.

Jayne Ray: You're right, you do need to purge. Yeah. Right? You do need to purge those feelings, however you do, you need to find a safe way. The first step, I think, is you have to accept those feelings are normal. Yes, they are. And I think that's the… that's the first step, is to accept that those feelings are normal, that they're… they're not something to be ashamed of, they're, you know, that doesn't take you out of the…

Jayne Ray: the nirvana of retirement. Yes.

Jayne Ray: But I think the second step is finding a safe haven. Maybe it is a close friend, or a sibling, or somebody that you feel, really, that you trust. Yes. And your relationship is based on that type of… Yes.

Jayne Ray: inner, deep feeling, and I have some of that with my sister. I mean, we, you know, known each other our whole lives, and so I will have deeper conversations with my sister and talk about real, real feelings. But…

Jayne Ray: depending on who you are and how you express those, again, first is to acknowledge it, second is to realize you have to purge it. For me, laugh if you want.

Jayne Ray: I have really interesting conversations in the sanctity of my car. Yeah. It's just you. It's just me, and I can yell, and I can say all the things, and even some of the language, in my car.

Jayne Ray: And so, for me, the purge experience is to say it out loud. Absolutely. Because I think if you don't say it out loud, it isn't real. Yes. And so…

Jayne Ray: while I'm driving, hopefully paying attention to the road, I am expressing whatever I'm feeling, and, and it's helpful.

Jayne Ray: for me, that's a safe haven, because I'm… there's nobody else there, there's nobody else that can hear it, and I'm very private, and so… but I also come out of that, and when I leave the car, hope… I mean, it's not a miracle, but hopefully, I'm feeling better about it, because I've said it out loud.

Jayne Ray: And once you put it into the universe.

Jayne Ray: Again, I am very spiritual, so, you know, I can have a whole conversation with God in my car, and I don't need to worry about being appropriate, and I don't need to worry about being flowery, or I could just yell it into the universe.

Jayne Ray: It is a way for me to just…

Jayne Ray: Get it out. And it works for you, and I think the lesson here, Dwayne, is

Jayne Ray: I'm not sure if there's one right or one wrong way, but in the last instance, you've found this works for me. I can scream and yell in the car.

Jayne Ray: I can use whatever language, it really doesn't matter, I just have to make sure it's a red light, that the window is not rolled down, and it looks okay! You know, but so you know it's safe. And for someone else, it may not be the car, it might be a person.

Jayne Ray: A friend, a sibling,

Jayne Ray: a pastor, a neighbor, a person you play golf with, whoever, it doesn't matter. If it works, it works. But the bottom line is.

Jayne Ray: If you don't give yourself permission to feel and express

Jayne Ray: Those feelings that are just as real and healthy and human as the happiness and all of the good stuff, all of that anger and frustration and hate and betrayal and everything, that also needs to come out. And because we have more time to think and feel.

Jayne Ray: in retirement, sometimes these feelings can become even more overwhelming, even stronger than they were before, so even more so there is that you've got to find a way that works for you.

Jayne Ray: What works for you may not work for your best friend, and that's fine. There is no one right, one wrong way. But I think it is… I think the only thing that I would say is right is realizing that it is perfectly okay.

Jayne Ray: to feel what you feel. Yeah. And that you don't need to live up to this, you know, model of what we think of as the retiree. Right. That we don't have to live up to the expectations of what retirement is supposed to be, and that we…

Jayne Ray: are, as you said, we're humans. And as humans, we are given the ability to feel a lot of different feelings. And again, I've said this so many times, I don't know why, when we're talking about retirement.

Jayne Ray: that…

Jayne Ray: whether you're preparing for retirement, you're in retirement, there is such a lack of resource to talk about the feelings that retirees feel. I think that there is… it is…

Jayne Ray: overwhelmingly, erring inside of the practicalities. And, you know, practicalities are great, and I think that's also part of why we don't acknowledge that, that, you know, it isn't just a bad day, it may be a bad day, but

Jayne Ray: It isn't… it isn't just, you know, a fleeting moment. We harbor so many experiences in our life, many of which

Jayne Ray: come out or are triggered by something else. And as you said, if you don't

Jayne Ray: Feel it. Allow yourself to feel it.

Jayne Ray: Then it's just gonna build and build and build, and you're actually working against yourself.

Jayne Ray: In terms of being able to purge, and then have a joyous journey, right? You're holding yourself back because you're trying to fit into this

Jayne Ray: model of what everybody expects you to be, right? What everybody expects your retirement's gonna be. Because if your retirement is great, then my retirement's gonna be great.

Jayne Ray: It's a… it is a… it is a little bit of a conundrum. It's a conundrum, and, you know…

Jayne Ray: there is no right way of… you need to find out… you need to find out, I need to find out what is working for me when these feelings come to relieve that pressure that builds up inside of me.

Jayne Ray: Because if I don't find a way to relieve this pressure, what's gonna happen is…

Jayne Ray: You either make life miserable for the people around you, the people who love you, your spouse, and suddenly, you know, there's a lot of conflict, a lot of arguing, a lot of fighting going on, and that part of this is normal, everyone fights, everyone argues, you know, but if you don't find a way to

Jayne Ray: To let this pressure come out, then…

Jayne Ray: that other side could become even more dominant than you want it to be. Or it, if you don't find a way to express it, it literally makes you physically sick, you know? If you just keep pushing it down there, well, it's not disappearing, it's…

Jayne Ray: That energy remains in you, and it's gonna make you physically ill.

Jayne Ray: And there is no need for that. There is no need for that. You know, it's funny, Andreas, that's one of the reasons we started this podcast in the first place, because we didn't feel like there was enough… Right. …talking about

Jayne Ray: feelings, particularly for people over 60, and we want you to have a joyous journey. I want to have a joyous journey. When you retire, I want you to have a joyous journey. So, part of it is digging into the feelings, and I think in future episodes we're going to do that. We started our Facebook group, Joyous Journeys Over 60, so that you can interact with other people in a confidential, even though you can see the group publicly, it is a private group. It is.

Jayne Ray: we're looking to find ways for people… that's one of the reasons I think people like social media. It's… it is relatively anonymous. It is. And you can express those… those feelings. So, whatever you're feeling.

Jayne Ray: It's okay. It is okay. It is okay. It is natural. It is a part of being human. And, you know, as we've said, just figure out what works for you in terms of… of…

Jayne Ray: acknowledging, purging, you know, finding a way to, to deal with those feelings, so that you can be joyous. Yes.

Jayne Ray: Yes. So, I think in future episodes, we're going to try to dig maybe even a little bit deeper… We need to. Yes. Because I think that's a service that our audience, doesn't have a lot of access to. Because no one wants to know, how you really feel. We ask, how are you doing?

Jayne Ray: But we don't want to know. We want to know. We want to know. We want to know.

Jayne Ray: All right, well, anyhow, please join our Facebook group, Joyous Journeys Over 60. The exciting news is Season 2 is finally going to be released… There we go. March 9th, and then we're gonna start, once a week releasing new episodes, so we're very excited. Looking forward to it. Yeah, very, very excited about that. Anyhow, wishing you a joyous journey for you as well. I appreciate that, I'm not over 60,

Jayne Ray: But I can't wait for you to retire. I know. He listens to us because he's preparing, and by the time you get there, you still have a little while to go. By the time you get there, you're going to be very, very well prepared. There we go. Anyhow, Jane Ray. Andrea Stein. Wishing you a joyous journey this week.