But I get people to understand better

that sometimes soldiers make huge mistakes

because they're kids and they're kids

from really difficult backgrounds.

Rather than idolizing the idea of

war, we should examine the cost of

it more flop out of this aircraft and

get, sort of get in entanglements.

Yeah, and I landed with probably about

half, maybe a third of my parachute.

Welcome to another episode

of the Combat Fuel Podcast.

Today we are joined by a long-term

friend of the brand, long-term personal

friend of mine as well, Jimmy Elliot,

former seven RHA soldier transition.

Now to what I could describe as it's

pretty inspirational, you know, he goes

out of his way to help the guys and

girls from the Armed Forces community

to look after their mental health.

And he's now set up his own practice

on Harley Street in London and.

You know, we'll get into it,

but it does a lot more than

just the Armed Forces community.

Jimmy, hello.

Thank you for your service.

Thanks so much, man.

Welcome.

Thanks for having me.

Give us a little

introduction about yourself.

Yeah, so that was really lovely.

So, yeah I'm a psychotherapist and

I do, I coach loads of resilience.

So I'm a psychotherapist and

effectively what's slightly different

about my practice is I combine

therapeutic approaches looking into

the past, understanding who we are

and why we do the things that we do.

But I combine that with the idea

of coaching, which is about setting

goals and helping people move forward.

So.

I have this kind of psychotherapeutic

resilience based brand and

yeah I work on Harley Street.

So, I was kind of recruited

into this Serena clinic by this

guy who's this amazing doctor.

He's like the second from the top of the

European Center of Preventative Medicine.

So looking at lifestyle rather than

sort of reacting to poor health.

We do like preventative things,

support health, so lifestyle, exercise,

food, nutrition, mental health.

All of those play huge roles in

the prevention of chronic illness

and the extension of longevity.

And so working with him and he pulled

me on, had this a amazing time with him.

And I did my master's.

So I went and did a master of science

in the field of war and psychiatry.

And actually last week I was

back at King school, two years

having graduated from that.

Actually presenting to them about the

project that I'm currently on, which is

helping veterans transition out of prison.

So working with probation and prison

staff to effectively help them

understand the needs of veterans and

how we can help them transition out.

I still have my.

My one-to-one private practice.

I'll take the referrals still from

Harley Street, and I still, you

know, if someone's a veteran and

they wanna reach out and I take

those guys on board and girls on

board and support them one-to-one.

But yeah, I got involved on loads of

these, like really fascinating projects.

Worked with the Paralympic rowing

team and they all went and got

like gold medals, which like

screwed the nut for me massively.

It's if you took someone for six

weeks to get them fit for a mile and

a half and they piled in immediately.

They didn't do that.

They all ran like a sub

seven, which was great.

So it made me look really good.

So yeah, I worked with the

Paralympians, that was just amazing.

I ran a resilience training program

for like police Scotland, which

was like really interesting, right?

So the thing that was so interesting

about working at Police Scotland was

you could have somebody who worked

in like arm response in Clyde's Bank,

so East End of Glasgow, really rough.

Do you know what I mean?

Got spat at by an

11-year-old that morning.

Do you know what I mean?

Something like that.

But you could also then have someone

on there who was like worked in

like the outer heide who hadn't

seen a human being in three weeks.

And like they, they had

just fixed the fence.

So you then had to find a way to appeal

to everyone that was in that, that,

that presentation about how to develop

resilience without one person being

like, I feel too alienated from this.

I don't get it.

Yeah.

And the other person being like, this is

too, almost like soft approach for me.

Wow.

Which is really interesting.

So that, and I've just got like loads of

these projects that I've got to go work on

and get involved with and help facilitate.

Yeah, mate.

So that's what I do.

That's brilliant.

That's cool.

It's, but obviously it's pretty

commendable what you do now.

Of course life didn't start off.

This positive if we can say

that and, you know, tell us a

little bit about your childhood.

You know, your mom left

when you were young.

Yeah.

Your dad ended up in prison.

Yeah.

So, I mean, like the vast majority of

people who joined, particularly joined

the Army, like in our era, so like

the Herrick era of recruits, right?

Yeah.

The Army was very deliberately recruiting

from a low socioeconomic demographic

because, and like I present about

this, and I've written about this,

but like lots of us come from these

really broken, broken backgrounds.

We come from these broken backgrounds

because, not because kids from poor

abusive childhoods are more resilient,

but actually because we're actually really

vulnerable and we're easy to radicalize.

And that is the truth.

You make great soldiers

like great soldiers, right?

Yeah.

But that, and I was one of those kids.

So yeah, my my, you know, my dad was

a drug dealer and really violent and

a rapist and here I am and my mum

left him and her and my sister left

and I was there on my own with him.

He was a drug dealer.

Well, he would smuggle it in, so he would

use the guise of a chocolate company

to bring it over from mainland Europe.

And he would then take it to these

hotels and distribute these hotels.

Most hotels, most of these top

end hotels, they don't like

having drug dealers come in.

So they would rather have

their own supply there.

That's how it works.

And so he would supply them.

And yeah, so I was with this guy

and he was just a monster, you know,

there's, he would just go in these

cocaine field rages and alcohol

and you were just, that was it.

Like you were a, I was a child and you

had to learn how to navigate that, how

to fight, how to escape, how to run away.

And that's like childhood.

And when you have a childhood that's

marred with that level of violence

and that level of abuse, like it

fundamentally changes who you are as

an adult and it fundamentally changes

the way that you perceive the world.

It's probably the vast majority of your

listeners are listening to this and going.

Yeah, like of course it does.

But you know, if you have a, so your

primary and secondary caregivers,

which like stereotypically speaking

is your mom and your dad, right?

They're supposed to teach you about

safety and love and like, how you perceive

yourself is by how they perceive you.

So if you grow up in an environment where

your primary and secondary caregivers

love and adore your, make you feel safe

and loved, then you are gonna grow up

thinking that the world is a safe place.

You're more likely to perform well, you're

more likely to reach your full potential.

You're more likely to get into

a meaningful relationship.

You're more likely to get meaningful work.

You're less likely to find yourself

with chronic health conditions.

All of this stuff, like your life

outcomes become 10 times better if you

come from a childhood of love and safety.

But when you grow up in an environment

without love and safety, you know,

like we used to go to back, you know,

in the nineties when Man United would

play like Blackburn Rovers in Coventry

City, you know, like industrial towns.

We'd go there and he'd have these

fights, you know, like Football

Factory was a documentary for me.

That was nor that was normalized behavior.

And so there was all of this

violence and anger and abuse.

He went to prison eventually.

And I lived full time then with my

mom, I, I started going to this school.

So in year seven was when the

court case started, and by the

time I was 13, he was in prison.

So I was living with my mom.

And yeah, like school was

just pandemonium for me.

Like inevitably, like as most kids,

and you go from one environment where

the parent is volatile, explosive, and

violent, and you go into another one

where that person is obviously severely

traumatized from her experiences with

that kind of guy and her experiences

from her childhood, and then that

inevitably then comes out in the

way that they parent or the way

that importantly they can't parent.

And you know, a lot of therapy is based

on understanding why they couldn't parent,

because when a child as human beings,

really in general, but particularly

as children, we don't understand why

people behave the way that they do.

So we internalize it.

So if your dad is of a violent,

physically abusive person and your mom is.

Emotionally not in the room, and

then extremely volatile and violent.

You'll, you will inherently

believe that is because of you.

Now, as adults, like we can now

appreciate having gone through therapy

and learning the lessons of life,

that actually someone is behaving

like that, it's because of them.

Right?

Da.

But as a child, you don't have

that narrative as a child.

You just have Well then I, it's

because I am that piece of shit.

I'm the problem.

Yeah.

I am the problem.

Right, right.

There's this great line it's not mine.

I can't remember where it's

from, but someone said a child

who wasn't spoonfed love had to

learn to lick it off of knives.

So then that then correlates to then what

you accept and what you date and what

you love and what you do as an adult.

Right?

So we're not just talking about

like the neurobiological effects.

So things like a much heightened stress

response and the ability to like really

perceive other people's behaviors.

I always think it's really obvious

when someone has come from a,

an abusive childhood, because

you can spot abusers in a room.

You can be like, I don't like that person.

I don't necessarily have a

rational reason for it, but I

can tell you they're a bad guy.

Right.

And then.

However long later, and it always comes

out, it turns out that you were right.

Yeah.

It's like I told you

they were the bad guy.

And you're like, wow.

Yeah.

But people don't always necessarily

pick up on that, but you do because

you grow up in an environment whereby

you have to constantly assess where

threat is and where dangerous.

And so there's actually like tiny micro

behaviors that are triggering these

responses within your brain and so hyper

vigilance in people's behaviors, stuff

like hypersensitivity the amygdala,

which is like your stress response.

So sometimes someone gets put under

pressure and they have this like really

explosive reaction and like it doesn't

really make any sense, but it doesn't

make any sense because you're just

seeing that one thing in isolation out of

context when you understand that person

grew up in a really violent environment.

That kind of behavior

makes a lot of sense.

I wonder how many young soldiers have

lost their careers or been labeled as

bottom third piece of shit guys, when

actually if we just zoomed out and took

a bigger look at their life, the fact

that every time they drink they're a hand

grenade probably makes a lot of sense

when you understand that their parents

were alcoholics are used to abuse them.

So like the ability to then

understand that and that then

like very much shaped my life.

So, like school was just

like absolute pandemonium.

I basically kept going to like science

because I was sat next to like the

pretty girl in my year and was told

to sit in it and she was just pretty

and I couldn't go off anymore.

And the real nice end to

that story is that I actually

married her like two months ago.

But so I would go to school and

it'd just be absolutely pandemonium.

I remember getting picked up by

police like five or six times.

Police would collect me 'cause

I'd gone missing and nobody at

that point was going like, what's

going on in this child's life?

Like why do we as the local

police know him by name?

Because you just get

labeled as a bad child.

Because the language didn't exist

and no one was zooming out and

going, what's going on at home?

Could that arguably be there?

There's not enough resources to,

to look at the wider picture.

It's you, it's black and white.

You, you've been naughty.

You're naughty.

Done.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

This is a punishment.

For sure.

I mean there's that great line, isn't

there, from just bouncing off of that

from Hot F where he says there's so much

more to policing than knowing the rules.

Although this little notepad has

solved more crime than anything.

'cause he just starts jotting things

down and people panicking, da.

The point is like being like

really emotionally intelligent

as a police officer Yeah.

Probably helps you solve a lot

more crime than it looks like.

How many people do something

in self-defense but then

get arrested for that.

You know?

And we see these like miscarriages

of justice because the bigger

picture isn't observed.

Right.

Look at say for example.

So like I'm working at moment

on this helping veterans

transition outta prison program.

And so one of the things that I

do is I break the day down into

service, post-service exposures.

Do it, it's almost imagine like a

Venn diagram and in the middle of that

is this individual who's in prison.

But if you can understand that

we've recruited somebody from a low

socioeconomic demographic, which

increases their likelihood to traumatic

exposures by like up to five times.

So it's just chronically

stressful growing up.

They're likely to have a really poor

education because it's hard to give a

shit about something like Pythagoras

is serum if you don't know if you

have a sober parent or not at home.

Yeah.

And so like a lot of these guys who get

failed by this education system, they're

not failing the education system 'cause

they're unintelligent, they're failing

the only education system because they're

so stressed, because of home life.

So that, and then they've

got like violence and trauma.

So like hyper reactivity, their

amygdala is something that we observe.

So like a hyper stress response.

So then that's just pre-service.

So then I've fall into that category.

You know, I left school.

And then left home and then like

in and out of like homelessness

supported living building sites.

Just doing what you could

and joined the army.

And so you joined seven RHA?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, why them?

Every other unit you could have seen?

Absolutely no idea.

I didn't, no didn't.

But same as like every guy.

I think you just go in, you have no idea.

I had no research.

I'd s sin a bit of sharp, if that counts

a bit of Sean Bean, a bit of that.

But like you go and do the Barb test.

I don't think they call it that

anymore, but the clicky test.

Yeah.

You know, but that is we

all joke about that, right?

But that is actually an interesting social

reflection of the standard of education.

I'm not saying standard

of intelligence there.

I'm saying standard of education.

So the standard of, so like Paul has

two pound 50 and Mike has three pounds.

Who has more money?

Like to us, that's like

a ridiculous question.

But actually that's a reflection

of the standard of education.

'cause people don't get in the

army because of the bar test.

It's worth to point out.

So that, and then depending upon

where you score on that, depends on

where it is they like to send you.

They sit you down and

have a, have an interview.

I didn't know anything.

Like I was like, sold this and sold that.

And I, no idea when I went

to basic training, no idea.

Didn't know anything about anything

or anyone at all, didn't know.

I just didn't know anything.

Had I known what I know now, had I known,

I mean part of me goes just go and just

try and find like the iest of imaginable.

The other part of me goes

probably just go and get a trade.

So something engineering maybe like even

Air Core and just like push push for a

really niche electrical engineering job.

Part of me goes, go and join the Navy

and go do like maritime engineering

and then leave the Navy after eight

years and have a mega pay job.

Like living the dream.

Right?

But I didn't know anything about that.

I just didn't know.

The idea of pea company

really appealed to me.

So like peak this idea, there's this

course that you can go and do and

it's to join the British Airborne

and it's all of the narrative that

gets fed to you as a young lad.

Like it's the absolute tit, it will

literally make you better than everybody

else for the rest of your life.

Okay.

It's like a fitness course.

Do you know what I mean?

But that's the narrative that when you

are a young lad and you're vulnerable

and you're from an abusive and you're

very susceptible to that language

and it makes you a very good soldier,

like the Airborne Forces Thrive

inventory, thrive special forces

thrive offer these kind of guys, right?

Yeah.

It's really important.

I don't think it's a bad thing that

we recruit these guys because what

you do in that is you offer them

the opportunity for social mobility.

My probably my main criticism of the

Army and one of them is that is not a

meritocracy and we'll come back to that,

but like the other one is that we don't.

Enable social mobility enough.

So if you come from poverty and you

go and do four to eight years in

the military combat unit, whatever,

and you leave there, if you have not

seriously upskilled in that time, you

are just returning to that poverty.

But you have probably far more

stresses and traumas in your life

now than when you originally left.

So actually you are not in a better place.

You are in a much worse one.

And that's where, so that's where

then like we then get these guys

who then find themselves in prison.

So I always try and increase the picture.

'cause the more you can understand

the reason why something happens,

the easier it'll become to negate it.

So I joined 2006 and yeah,

I did my I did 14 years.

I, my, I got my your little, you know,

your little veteran certificate thing.

You can, yeah, I got my little veteran

certificate thing, but because when I

left, I went over to the reserves 'cause

I was a parachuting instructor in PTI.

So the parachute instructor thing was

like, it was quite cool at the time.

Cool.

You know, you know what I mean?

Like it was un it was unusual.

Yeah.

And it was a really handy thing

to have, like units wanted that.

So for Power asked me to

come over and do that.

So, I did some time with, for Power.

I did a couple of years,

like 18 months, two years.

And I helped with like recruit training

and did a bit of para training with him

which I really enjoyed and I really enjoy.

I think the reserves should actually play

like a bigger role in your transition.

I think you should go part-time in

the regulars and still report to your

local reservist unit and do part-time

city work as you transition out.

Yeah.

I think that should be

like a two year process.

But anyway and I really

enjoyed that with full power.

Like I I really did, but it just got to

a point with work where what they were

asking for was a little bit more than

what I could actually physically give.

Yeah.

Like I just didn't have the time for that.

So I've got my little thing and I'm

like, I wouldn't really necessarily

class that as when I left, but

I probably can't before then.

Yeah.

But that.

Yeah, and I did 14 years, mate,

and, you know, I had a great career.

Like I enjoyed it.

I was never massively

asked about promotion.

Which I think there's two things.

First and Foremostly, it means you

can go and try things like selection.

It means you can go on sporting teams.

It means you can go and get

jobs that you want to do.

You can do things that you want to do.

It also kind of removes

the Army's carrot though.

So the military relies on the

fact that you want to promote, to

motivate and manipulate behavior.

If you're like, I'm not really asked

about that, it takes that carrot away.

They're like, they don't, it's almost like

they're really not like I, being in the

sergeants mess never really appealed to

me in what I did in seven, I was in the

FSTs ops for the older guys, but what,

there's one sergeant who like basically

runs the admin for all of the guys in

the full screws and the ops, right?

And he sits at that computer

and his face just melts off.

It's the same as like when guys

become platoon sergeants and they're.

I love being a section commander.

I hate being a Plato sergeant.

Yeah.

'cause of the admin.

So I would look at that and I go,

but then why would I want to do that?

Yeah.

That's horrendous.

That job Blake and I saw I think five on

the bounce, guys just crumble from it.

'cause it's just horrendous.

Right.

So then I, so then that

didn't appeal to me.

So I did my 14 years and I did Herrick.

And like my HEC is as full of tragedy

as I think like lots of people's are.

And I think it's a very difficult

conversation for a lot of us still.

It's still a very difficult

conversation for me.

And I have lots of therapy still and

have gone through full-time therapy

at one point talking about this.

I think the best way to just explain

it is that it just fucking sucks.

The whole thing was for nothing.

But it was for nothing.

The whole thing was, it was right.

It's hard to look back at it and go,

there's so many wonderful men doing

so many Inc. And women, I'm so sorry.

Doing so many men and women doing

so many incredible, brave and

wonderful acts of heroism and the

comradery and the love was incredible.

But ultimately we were

there for the wrong reasons.

Ultimately we were there

for the wrong reasons.

Right.

We were like the bad, we

were part of the bad guys.

Yeah.

You know, I completely agree.

And it was a lot of Afghan was who's

gonna be the greater evil the Taliban

who are gonna and are gonna rape your

children, they're gonna kill your family.

What do we have to offer?

Oh, we might build you a school.

I think in the early s we won't get too

much onto it so we don't get canceled.

But, you know, we were

equally the bad guys.

You know, as nato we had to,

allied forces did bad stuff because

you had to be the greater two

evils before you could get there.

'cause what's worse.

And then, and ultimately later

said, at one point though, the

country and the civilian popula

were better off with us there.

But it was for a window

that was like that.

It was such a small window till

then, as you said now for what?

Yeah the loss of life.

Civilian and allied forces.

For what, how do we justify it?

And the friends that we continue

to lose now for replacing

the Taliban With the Taliban.

Yeah.

With a better arm Taliban.

Yeah.

With all of our money

and our kit equipment.

Yeah.

So, so how do you then justify that?

And then how do you then

take, what do we now do?

Right.

So we've got a generation of young

men and women who were recruited,

very specifically recruited

to go and fight in that war.

And ultimately we lost that war.

And we were there for the wrong reasons.

And now we see the Taliban

driving around in our huskies.

Yeah.

Hold, like holding what, even when you

see the finger over the trigger guard,

you're like, they learned that from us.

Like what?

And then how do you then justify that?

'cause now we get what we

identify as moral injury.

So people just basically so devastated

you witness something that goes

against your sense of right and wrong

so much that it creates a hideous

psycho psychological abnormality.

And so we're seeing this

massive rise in moral injury.

What do we do with these people?

Look what do you do?

How do you support these people?

It's not like the government's

gonna say, you know what?

We did that for the bad.

We, like we are the bad guys.

You know, if who's saying that?

And I completely agree with the

argument, but like the Taliban of

the bad guys and you know, like they

they're raping and murdering children.

Look in the news today, it's so are we.

Yep.

And it's Joe, maybe a little

bit controversial, but nobody's

the victim in their own story.

Yeah.

So nobody's the criminal

in their own story.

Yeah.

You know, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we could debate it forever who

the bad guys really are and, okay.

Like the Taliban commit

atrocities in their country.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Could we also then argue that's their

country, their way of life, and there was

no threat, immediate threat to the West.

So, yeah.

I mean, it's a really difficult

conversation when you say to veterans,

okay, explain to me why we were there.

And it's, I think the majority

of guys, myself included, was

we went there to experience war.

I think a lot of guys went there because,

you know, adventure, it's gonna be so rare

that we're ever gonna have, I mean, and

the war fighting was, you know, I said it

over and over the hardest, factually the

hardest war fighting since World War ii.

And a very small percentage of people

have been able to experience that.

And I think every single

person said war as hell.

Everybody wishes for it

until they've done it.

Yeah.

There's the one thing you need to be

wary of a young man who goes looking

for blood is that he'll find it.

Yeah.

And it's that I was, when I did the talk.

The other day at King's, one

of these students said, oh,

she was actually from Ukraine.

Really interesting girl.

And she was saying, oh, my boyfriend

is, he's just leaving the army.

He joined in 2021 and he really

wants us to go live in Ukraine.

And I was like, she, and she was

like, but he's obviously been in the

army so he knows what he's doing.

And I'm like, I don't, I

think that's potentially a big

misconception a little bit, yeah.

Uneducated without the full facts.

But I, you, but you know,

like, how do you say your

boyfriend's looking for an answer.

When he finds that answer, he's

gonna really regret doing that.

How do you say that?

Without signing really patronizing?

Yeah.

You know, you just go, okay, cool.

And I, my like tiny experience that,

and you know, it's not you know, some

of these guys who I, you know, I work

with, you know, mental health support,

some of 'em got like the most awful

stories and then, you know, they're

just deployment after deployment.

I, I wasn't necessarily one of those

guys but you just hear these stories and

you think, wow, we still glorify war.

We still make out like that violence

is ever a good idea, like invading

another country is ever a good idea.

And let's touch on your background

and your knowledge with us now.

What, why do we want it?

Because, you know, the films are

never made about the mechanics, right?

Yeah.

Fixing earth track war films

are war films, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

And I think the vast majority

of us that have served still

thoroughly enjoy them, you know?

Yeah.

There's a lot of so I think there's

a lot of, okay, so first of ly, look,

we are raised from a very young age

to, to idolize military service and

in a way that sometimes we should.

But also I think that say for example,

remembrance, I think there's a great

example of where we look at the

cost of war that should actually

be the focus all of the time.

Like rather than idolizing

the idea of war, we should

examine the cost of it more.

Because there's very as in a

tiny percentage of people who

have been to war, who then come

back from that and glamorize it.

So that should tell you

everything that you need to know.

But thing is as human beings,

we love stories of heroism.

Like we have gathered round fires

for millennia to listen to people

tell stories and paint things

on wall and talk about death and

excitement and adventure and love.

These are all stories that we

all relate to and we all love.

And they're great.

Don't get me wrong.

Like Predator is one of the

greatest movies ever made.

Yeah, 100%.

Is there anything better

than Pizza and Predator?

Yeah.

I I literally like, unbelievable.

It's my wedding day and it's an

evening watching Butch and Predator.

Like it is that close.

But the point is that, like these stories,

we love stories of heroism, right?

But we don't do enough

examining the cost of that.

And then particularly like how we've

become a society with the average

attention span now is six seconds, right?

And they're attributing that to TikTok.

So we don't want like complicated

and nuanced layers of.

Information around like the psychological

and economic effects and the long

lasting effects that has on things like

child abuse and parents who can't be in

the room as everybody else emotionally

because they've disassociated so hard

because of the horrors that they've

seen are probably gonna really struggle

to connect with their children.

So their children are gonna grow

up really avoidant, feeling really

rejected, and that's just gonna

perpetuate that cycle of abuse.

We don't have time now.

People, we do, but people

feel like they don't have time

now to really explore that.

What we want to see is we want

to see helicopters explode.

And don't get me wrong, I love a

big explosion as much as everyone

else, but like the glorifying

of war becomes a problem.

And.

Yeah.

And we see this like time and time again.

And it's, you know, these children,

we then feed this to them.

And there's lots of positive

aspects of the military.

Like hashtag this is belonging is

actually a really powerful recruitment

tool because there's lots of young

people pushed out of society.

You feel like they didn't engage

with the education system.

We feel chronically let down by the

powers that exist and don't help them.

And those people should be the people

that we are targeting and saying, listen,

come here because we will educate you.

You'll play a role serving your country,

but you'll leave with a better education.

You'll leave financially much better off.

Like we will support

you and look after you.

And that is actually what happens

for quite a lot of people.

However, there is also people that we know

that kind of like our circle of people who

might leave and actually be far worse off.

Yeah.

And that's what, and that's

basically where I live.

That's where I exported

support and help those people.

So the glorifying of war in some ways

could be seen as a positive 'cause.

It helps with recruitment.

And recruitment is a great way

to encourage social mobility.

We take people from low socioeconomic

demographics, we educate them, give them

even like sense of like moral guidance.

What's right and what's wrong

is something that most people

have never really explored.

But when you belong to something like a

cat badge, when you belong to something

like a T or a unit or whatever it

might be, all of a sudden the socially

normative behaviors are behaviors

that are going to further that bury

that cat badge up, whatever, right?

Like you wanna do things that are

airborne, you want to do things

that support the Vikings or the

poachers, or you wanna do things that

support your battery or you wanna

do things, support your squadron.

So all of a sudden you're giving

someone a reason to behave with

morality, you're giving someone a

reason to care and support and love

something greater than themselves and

to put something ahead of themselves,

which is a beautiful and important

thing that lots of young men learn.

That sense of morality.

And it's really important that we

instigate a good sense of morality within

service because then those guys leave

and that's something that they've got.

Right?

I know it sounds ridiculous, but

like Army values and standards are

actually really important things

to carry with you on City Street.

Like we did the procedurals.

I know there's all different variations.

Courage, discipline, respect, integrity,

loyalty, and selfless commitment.

I know that sounds really boring,

and everyone's what a barlow.

But actually those things are really

important to take with you on TV Street.

They are actually good things.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's good to be disciplined.

It's good to have integrity.

It's good to be loyal.

Like these are good things to

have, and you take that with

you and you maintain that good.

But there are also people who

fall out of that system, and

that's where like particularly

the transition phase comes in.

How many people when they left were

happy with how they left, the nature

they left, the relationship they

had with their unit when they left.

Yep.

I wasn't happy at all.

You know, it was very much in the,

we'll come back to this on the career

CTW, the career transition workshop.

Awful.

What did you do?

Did you do the how to write a cv?

One like three days?

Yeah.

And yeah, don't.

I swear, because you'll never get a job.

Fuck you tell me what dude?

Yeah.

What have you done with your life?

You're sat here Yeah.

Teaching a class of how to do it.

What have you done?

They stuck us on indeed.com

for an afternoon.

So we had to apply for jobs on indeed.com.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, that was really helpful for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How much of your financial

support did you get?

Did you get any of your

Align learning credits?

Anything that, so I was

really lucky in a way.

I did, I managed to redo, so I only

had my personal training qualification.

I got to redo that for my

enhanced learning credits.

But that was only because I had

a really good senior NCO be like,

you know, you've got all this

money you can use for courses.

I'm like,

what?

Yeah.

Can you just pay it to

me and I'll sort it out?

They're like, no, because you

told won't so well, and this

is everything you've got home.

I'm like, wow, I can do all

these courses and it's free.

Yeah.

Well, it's not free, but you

know, the military will pay

for them as part of your.

Resettlement, you know, and I grabbed

it by the horns and I was very lucky.

I had a small amount of money paid by

SFA and they gave me, gave 500 pounds

so I could do a further course for

adapting to do my personal trend in

my adapting exercise for older adults.

Exercise prescription for

anti and postnatal women.

Nice.

And a level four obesity and diabetes.

So, you know, but that was owned.

They didn't tell me any of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was a guy at unit that

was like, go and use it.

And you can have, I think it's about

a thousand pound a year for the

next few years after you've left to

continue doing your own development

on certain courses that the Army

have approved, which that's great.

You know, and how many

people don't get told that.

I don't get told that

I'm Irish settlement.

So I did my Master of Science in

War and psychiatry and the MOD now

will take re research from Kings.

They don't fund like all of my

stuff, all of my counseling courses,

everything I've had to pay for.

Let's come, like I had student debt.

I've still got a student debt.

Like you have.

That's, and that, that's the

reality for like lots of people.

Yeah.

That whole thing is it lets people down.

So I think that, so let's look at

the infrastructural issues first.

And Foremostly career

transition just doesn't work.

It's ineffective.

Every single person loses ineffective.

But what they do is they say that 80 odd

percent of service leavers have a job.

And they're like, that's

thanks to career transition.

But the average person changes

job four times within three years.

So you're getting them a job,

but it's not the right job.

No.

And they use that

statistically you've got a job.

So that's, look, we're

successful, we're doing Right.

I didn't I couldn't fit

in a severe workplace.

I hated it.

And I dug out absolutely blind

to stay there and make it work.

And that was a year.

And I was, and I probably should have

left after I reckon, four or five months.

And you know, and that's when

I'm like, do you know what,

actually, I've identified that.

Working with civilians?

No, nothing wrong with working with

civilians, but I'm not in myself

in a position where I should work

with civilians because, you know,

I've got some issues I think here.

And that's when I was like,

do you know what I know sport.

I know fitness industry.

I'm gonna do combat fuel, do a gym.

And then that was evidently where we met.

We're gonna talk about,

about a transition few.

I think a key bit is you had a

parachute accident as well, didn't you?

No, I did.

Yeah.

So I had a I jumped in Kenya, so we had

30, I've gotta get this number right.

36 of us jumped and I think

there were 11 casualties.

So it was like Kenya, it was like red hot.

People were like fainting on

their way to the aircraft.

'cause you've done that thing

where it's oh, it's tactical, it's

nont, it's tack, it's non tack.

You're in Kenya's tack, non tack.

Non tack.

So yeah, like we patrol in and whatever.

Then inevitably the REF were late.

The plane.

Shock.

Yeah.

Shock.

Well, they'd crashed the truck and

one of them had a bald head to cut

his bald head to be turned on with a

tampon stuck on the top of his head

turn to teaches about parachute.

And you're there like, right, because you

have to get like this thing like renewed.

So someone has to just remind you

about like how to land parachute land.

And you are looking at this guy

with a tampon stuck to the top of

his head and you're like, fuck it.

What is going on?

And so tampon ed then caught us

all on, caught us all on this

aircraft, and it's like red hot and

the, so it's the first aircraft or

second aircraft, sorry, everybody.

Boring army debt.

The first aircraft actually turned

around 'cause so many people fainted

on it, that the ge the star major

was like, this is fucking stupid.

Turn around.

I'm not letting my guys go.

But the OC who was on mine

was like, no, we've gotta go.

So the door's open,

people like passed out.

Like my signaler like fainted.

He's got loads of batteries that I need.

So it's oh God, thanks.

Cheers bud.

Like that.

And out, out we go.

But I'm like in absolute pieces,

I'm holding onto this static

line and I kind of just flop

into this guy whose name is Dom.

I'm actually really

good mate to him still.

And I like flop out of this aircraft

and get, sort of get in entanglements.

Yeah.

And I, I landed with probably about half,

maybe a third of my parachute kind of like

upside down, smashed my head severely into

ground out as everyone can probably see.

I've got a massive head.

And so when everyone said, oh,

Jimmy smashed his head into Kenya,

the response is, oh, is Kenya okay?

But yeah, smashed my head and I

was unconscious for 14 minutes

or something, like choking on

my tongue all over the shop.

I wound up getting strapped

down into a spinal board

'cause I was like lashing out.

Like in bits, the C one 30 had to land on

the drop zone 'cause there were so many

people who were injured on the drop zone.

So many people were like, were piling

in that the C one 30 had to turn

around and land on the drop zone.

And then they just cvac us

onto the back of the C one 30.

Took off, landed as in Nairobi

and got taken to the hospital.

I'm in there with this doctor who's

I can kind of remember him telling me

that everything's gonna be all right.

Definitely didn't feel

like it at the time.

If it, if anyone who's ever been

knocked out it's it was just like that.

It was like, I wasn't, it wasn't

like I wasn't quite waking up.

And like I couldn't open my eyes

'cause that was like an awful headache.

And I went to this hospital and I came to,

and I'm like, I need to get out of this.

So I tied into this thing.

So I like Jason born it to get out of

this spinal board in this hos there's like

tapping on the window in this hospital.

'cause it's like ghet.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like hard to describe

people like, who haven't.

It is like something

out of World War's head.

There's people like trying to get in

the windows, tapping on the windows.

And so I'm there I can't stay here.

So like Jason born and get out,

and I open the curtain and it feels

like I've been in a car crash.

Like my whole body hurts.

And I pull the curtain.

There's this medic girl standing

there and I say, what's going on?

And she's oh my God, you need

to get back into bed dah.

And basically this doctor came and

said that I had a bleed on my brain.

He drew like on a piece of paper, like

a circle, then did like a semis and

went, this is the bleed on your brain.

Here is a phone.

Goodbye left.

That was me for the night, just on my own.

That was a long, that

was a long ass night.

Yeah.

Like horrible.

In the morning they,

'cause they'd done a scan.

It turns out it wasn't a bleed.

That there's a cyst.

It was called a subarachnoid cyst.

And that was gonna be fine, but

like a severe concussion like that

I had to take, I couldn't get,

we shouldn't have got stressed.

Should take everything

easy, like just relax.

Which is oh, okay, cheers sound.

Yeah, just leave me in a room with all

these people trying to break in and that

in the night with a phone how'd you dial

an outside number from like that hospital?

What am I supposed to do?

That was a bad night.

Yeah.

And so that was that.

And then and what, six months later I

got given the, or so I had to go for

like loads of brain scans and had to get

looked at and speak to like specialists.

And it was like a really scary thing.

'cause you know, when they're

showing you pictures of your brain

and showing you like there's a

mouth, mal formity there and dah.

And they're talking to you about

like concussions and stuff.

And yeah.

You know, it was like really horrible.

It was scary.

Like really scary.

'cause I thought I'm gonna die.

It's your brain.

And the regiment were asking

when I could go back on exercise.

Do you know what I mean?

It was absolutely mental.

And then yeah, and I yeah, I got

upgraded, but the opportunity arose,

you know, a little while later after

that to become a parachuting instructor.

And I thought, do you know what I

actually thought that my experiences with.

That put me in really good stead to

then explain to people about this is

what happens when it goes wrong and dah.

So, I applied and got that and became

like one of those AP g So yeah, I

mean, it was an awful experience.

It was, but it helped me become

like a much better instructor

because of those experiences.

Right.

And that, I think that's like the key

to like everything that we talk about.

Right.

Particularly, I think what I do,

and I think a lot of what you do as

well, it's because we understand,

'cause we've lived experience there.

That's a lot of problem

with mental health.

There's not always a huge amount of lived

experiences and that academia doesn't

always necessarily align to practice.

And so I think this you know, like you

identify so well there that the ct, CT

whatever partnership people like, they say

these things on paper that looks great,

but that's not your lived experience.

That's not the reality of it.

So like having people involved in

positions and of influence who,

or support, who actually got lived

experience, you could say, well, that's

what the, that's what the Pam says,

but that's not the reality of it.

I actually think that's really

powerful and really important.

And so that's what we found in mental

health and that's what I found.

Having that experience allowed me

to be open the door to me being a

better parachute instructor because

I'd known when it had gone wrong.

And so I could offer that reassurance and

explain people what they needed to do.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

I've not spoken about that in ages.

I I actually turned up at

Bryce Norton about six weeks

after with a bottle of rum.

And I walked into the office in the

parachute trainer school office with

a bottle rum, and I said, I'm looking

for a parachute instructor, tall

guy, good looking curly out Welsh.

And they were like, they knew exactly what

I was talking about, but he is suggestion

of like perhaps a bit of a scoundrel.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So they're like, oh God.

'cause there's this bloke like

back when I was a skinhead.

Yeah.

Skinhead with a bottle of rum in his hand.

And they're like, oh god.

And he came over, but there was

like, loads of them came with him

and I was like, oh, that's him.

No.

Yeah.

And they're like, yeah, he's coming.

He's coming.

And he like, came in, he

was like, they like bad

mate.

Don't think you recognize me,

but you actually helped Cassie

wrap me off the DZ on in Kenya.

And you were like, really sound?

And he was like, right.

And I went, well, I've

got this for you mate.

And gave him a bottle of rum and

said, I really appreciate it.

And he was like, oh, okay.

Yeah.

And then fast forward, like a year

later, I go there as a parachute

instructor and he's one of the, he's

one of the in instructors himself.

Wicked.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

It was cool.

And he, and we actually we chatted

just the other day I've gone to

his gym and done a presentation

about mental health at his gym.

It's just another great example of how

that military, that veteran community,

like everyone knows each other.

Right.

Love it.

And that's how we worked together.

Yeah.

That was cool.

Yeah.

What?

That was a bad day at the office.

And it's, you know, I've got a

highlight of your career only from

social media, which is when you were

parachuting down and you managed

to record yourself being like Yeah.

To your daughter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gotta go at work.

Yeah.

Have you got if that isn't, if you've got

a highlight of your military career Yeah.

Prob like, that was a cool thing.

Like film, like doing the video and the

canopy for Georgie por, that was cool.

I've always been into sport and if you're

into sport, there are opportunities

that like present themselves to you.

So, I found myself on like

the gunner tug of war team.

I'm not like, like just pure,

like monk strength, right.

There's no like skill to that.

And and yeah.

And and I got invited to go

to the Braymar games up in

Scotland, know the Highland games.

Yeah.

And you took a war in

front of the royal family.

What on earth was I doing that?

Like we got absolutely tanked by the way.

There was no like, you know,

these like Scottish farmers who

were like tent PS on the rope.

Yeah.

And they were like, pop.

Look that and you are just

there like trying to rag on this

rope with arm with your arms.

So I was absolutely like, I was

so bad man, but that was cool.

I really enjoyed that and I think actually

the work I did when I did move into the

mental health team and did the mental

resilience stuff, you know, I like, I

felt like I was actually doing something

really like rewarding there and I was

like really helping young soldiers develop

resilience and going from unit to unit

and meeting all these different people

and having these cool conversations.

And if, and like I went and did the London

Garrison, which was like the bands of

guards, how cavalry everyone and the, she

was this brilliant colonel had just taken

over as like the head of London Garrison

and she asked to speak to me afterwards

and she said, I want you to like kind of.

Collate what the problems are

and then present them to me.

'cause you are gonna speak to everybody

about resilience and mental health.

So at the end of it, I'd like

you to present that to me.

And so I got to sit there with the

commander of the London Garrison

just, and try and suggest these ideas

and she was like, I never knew that,

or, that was really interesting.

Thank you for bringing

that to my attention.

Da.

So that was quite good.

You were a corporal at this point.

Yeah.

And it's How did you land this army

mental health resilience coach job?

So I was at the Parachute Training

school and I'd done loads within strength

conditioning with Colchester Rugby Club.

So I went from Colchester and being

at the regiment and working with

Colchester to rugby club and I went

to the Parachute Training School.

And what I found was that a lot of the

key psychological skills that were really

applicable to those young athletes were

really applicable to young soldiers.

So stuff like anxiety regulation

managing your emotions performance

managing, the stress of performance,

all that stuff was like really pertinent

to those young guys there as well.

And so basically I just started

to kind of incorporate that within

a lot of my instructional stuff.

Then, like really uncharacteristically

to me having had like issues

with my own mental health.

I actually read some emails and very

unlike me, and one of them was like this

intranet email from Army headquarters

just about how they're gonna change

their approach to mental health, dah.

And I basically emailed him back and

said, listen, this is actually my tene.

I think that we do it wrong because we're

really reactive, but actually we should

be proactive and we should be teaching

young soldiers about getting emotionally

overwhelmed and developing positive

relationships and all that type of stuff.

Like actually working on people's,

we're not sending people DCMH when

they've reached like rock bottom.

We should be like preventing that.

We should be teaching 'em how

they can manage themselves and

what that looks like and like

developing this idea of resilience.

And they actually replied and

said, we really like that.

Come down for a conversation.

So I went down for a conversation

and spoke about what I've been doing

and where I was and my experiences

and my perspective, and it went cool.

We really like that.

Can you come here and become the

second in Commander, British Army

mental resilience training, and you'll

be given the south of the country.

The other guy who's running it, he's

the north, and you will just go camp to

camp and the two of you'll sit together,

you'll design this resilience product.

This, he's already got

like a really cool thing.

You'll jump in there with him

and then you'll go and teach it.

And I went, yeah, okay, cool.

Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that that was it.

And it was literally like from

camp to camp, like coaching

this resilience product.

And it was like a, it was like a full

day, it wasn't like a an hour map brief.

It was like a full eight hour thing.

Yeah, mate.

And I went everywhere.

Like Hereford guys would be on it

one week and then and they were

like really interesting to do.

And there's interesting correlation

that I found between, I thought that the

more sort of combat, more warry, more

alley the unit, the less into talking

about things like emotional resilience.

They'd be completely wrong

it the other way around.

The more into the more

like alley the unit, right?

The more door ery the unit, whatever

the terminology is, the more interested

they were in understanding why their

brained, what they did, how they could

further performance, what resilience

looked like, what mental health

like looked like the science, like

really interested in the science.

And that's kind of where my career

then took me to go more into

the science of human behavior

so that they really loved it.

But actually then it was often within

units that were like service support that

they'd be like, ah, it's pink and fluffy.

This is not necessary.

But they'd be like, yeah, listen,

if like guys from PF and guys from

Harriford and guys from like wherever,

if they're like going, this is great.

This is good.

Look, you should be like,

you should be all over this.

Nah, it's not a problem here.

And it's well I, yeah, I've

actually seen the numbers.

And it is, yeah.

So but it's that resistance to it.

Right.

But yeah, it may, I just found

myself doing that and I did that

for I don't know, like two years.

Two years just going, delivering

and learning and reading and

doing like starting my learning

journey to doing like that.

Effective coaching and

mentoring and doing that.

Some sports psychology diplomas as

well, which is really interesting.

Like, why do athletes, because

there's, so why do athletes

behave and what do athletes need?

Why do athletes behave the way

they do and what are their needs?

Because actually there's so much

similarity between athletes and soldiers.

Like combat fuel surrounds itself with

athletes, what you're really doing is

you are recreating a version of the

military that Yeah, you probably wish

you had, which is like loads of just high

performance people, top of their game.

Mega keen, good sense of humor.

Everyone understands teamwork.

Yeah.

Like that's what you've done here.

You've just recreated like a

really alley unit like that.

And so that's.

That's what we see.

We often just in if we were to kind

of jump back to the childhood stuff,

we're talking about how people recreate

the same dynamics that they've existed

in, but try this time to recreate it

with a greater element of control.

So often, why do guys date?

If guys have terrible experiences

with their mothers, why do

they date terrible women?

It's because what you're trying

to do is recreate the same dynamic

that you had with your mum, but

this time you're worthy of love.

So it's almost like with combat fuel,

what you're doing here is almost like, is

like you're recreating a version of the

army that you deserve to have this time.

You are in like control of that.

So nobody, like you said, you left

under a bit of a dark cloud, like

you pissed you off how you were

treated, which is how 99% of people

I speak to experience the military.

It's like the saddest thing about

the military is we are so bad

at celebrating people's careers.

I like now that they, you see

sergeant majors getting clapped

off of camp, but it's not just

the sergeant majors who deserve.

A proper recognition for their service.

And you know, guys aren't celebrated

when they're in there either, are they?

No.

A lot of the time it's, we

celebrate average or bad.

That became average.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And the guys that are doing

well, it's, what's your job?

Well, what's, yeah.

What's sold to you in the

military is it's a meritocracy.

So the better you do, the

more you're rewarded for it.

That's not the case.

Right?

So first and foremost, the reporting

process in the military is fundamentally

flawed because the assumption is that

everyone is a good green soldier.

You are not judged on that.

But that is really the main thing

that you should be judged on.

But it's not.

And so that is where this

becomes hideously unfair.

You get a guy who is I am a green soldier.

I'm good at this.

This is what I do.

But they don't organize EW or they're

not involved in a regimental sport.

Yeah.

Their career gets laid to the

side compared to someone who

is, or it's for celebrating.

I can run a mile and a

half in shorts and t-shirt.

Yeah.

Cool.

Cheers Tan.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll promote them.

'cause they're fit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But guy that can tab for days on end.

Yeah.

You know, PR can establish Yeah.

Can win, firefighters can

establish you, do all of that.

Yeah.

But that's expected of you.

You're doing your job.

Yeah.

Well done.

It's your job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not a meritocracy and the

problem then that you've got, right.

Okay, so the army is a pyramid.

There's one chief of general staff slot.

There's one commander field army, right.

There's one and there's tens of

thousands of private soldiers.

Right.

It's a pyramid called the further up the

rank sides you go, the lesser those jobs

that there are, but that doesn't funnel

the best because it's not a meritocracy.

What that funnels is.

People who stayed.

I'm not saying that's true in every

case, I have met some unbelievably

outstanding psych majors.

Of course, when I was actually in

the mental health training team one

of the biggest supporters of it was

the army psych major at the time.

Gaz the enormous guy.

But he was like a larger

than life character as well.

Yeah.

And like a guy of real integrity.

Like that guy there, he was great.

And so there are some

wonderful senior end series.

I'm not saying this is true for all

senior end series, but this is the

byproduct that you get when it's not

a meritocracy and the jobs get fewer.

The good guys will just leave,

they'll go and set up combat fuel.

Yep.

The same for officers, you know?

Yep.

A lot of officers, whatever, we'll go

and not the same as all of at, you know?

No.

Yeah.

And I work with a lot of

officers, a lot of senior NCOs

still now with combat back fuel.

And they're exceptional.

You know, they're

brilliant at what they do.

So just to be clear, like if you're

watching this and you're one of

the guys that works with us, it's

not you, but there are a lot of it.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

You know, it, it is very frequent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so then the good guys would

just leave because if going and

doing like a really good job, right?

And I, I was never ranked

bothered, so it didn't necessarily

become that much of a problem.

And I know a lot of guys aren't, but

there are ways of rewarding people

without having to promote them.

So if you are basically not getting

rewarded for your hard work, you're just

gonna go somewhere that will, you're

just gonna find somewhere that will,

that's why so many units complain that

you get these really good fall screws

and then they leave there is only

because they're not feeling valued.

If they're not feeling valued,

that's super switched on.

Proactive, brilliant guy or girl.

It's just gonna go

somewhere where they are.

Absolutely.

And you know, I think this comes

a lot to leadership as well.

You know, I also have the

Royal Lins won Vikings.

We didn't really have this mindset at all.

It was, you know, the whole, you

gotta do four years in a Iraq,

otherwise you're getting filled

and you don't deserve to promote.

We didn't have really

any of that, you know?

Yeah.

Because before my time, the guys

had deployed a lot of Herricks.

One of the most decorated Italians Yeah.

In Afghanistan.

And it was, lads were promoted based

on if you're a good soldier or not.

And it showed, you know, it absolutely

showed we had guys progressing through the

ranks that, without naming names, he was

a color sergeant after 10 year service.

Yeah, cool.

Which is unheard of, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, he should be maybe looking

at Sergeant if he's doing very well but

normally 12 year point, but Color Sergeant

at just over 10 years service was mad.

All about every RS MI knew what, when I

was in brilliant guys promoting through

the ranks at an above average rate.

And the guys that were set over

us were there for a reason.

None of them, we didn't.

Really have the and time.

But equally, we had a bunch of

guys that were like, happy to

be private soldiers and Yeah.

And stay there.

Okay.

So then when the army is no longer

an institution at war, which I'm not

anti by the way, like I like, but

then how do you then deal with, how

do you then choose who to promote?

Absolutely.

And as a result of that, when

the Herricks finished, the flip

side of it is the guys left.

Yeah.

You look at that voluntary

redundancy and then it's Yeah.

How much did the army shoot itself in

the foot with voluntary redundancy?

Because so many people applied it for it.

Yeah.

They were like, oh, we didn't

realize you'd all leave.

Yeah.

There's nothing in it for them anymore.

Yeah.

If there's, especially

for infantry battalion.

Yeah.

What else are we gonna do?

Go and exercise for the

next however long, you know?

Yeah.

But yeah, we're probably never

gonna see another Iraq, Afghan,

hopefully in our lifetimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, so why join the infantry then?

I mean, I'd still advocate it.

I think it's a brilliant thing to do at

least for the minimum service, you know?

Yeah.

It's brilliant.

The opportunity are endless

but for a whole career.

Why.

Yeah.

And how do you then upskill that person?

Yeah.

What do you then do like

you, you're right, like close

in with and kill the enemy.

Right.

Mission statement number one.

Okay, cool.

What do you now do with that person then?

Yeah.

If they're not a war, how do

you upskill, maintain, motivate?

Because if someone does four

years and they've seen Otterburne,

oh God, that's just perfect.

They've seen Otter Burn,

Breen and Soulbury playing.

How do you convince 'em

to do another four years?

And it's just the same exercises that

are gonna circle over and over again.

Yeah.

You know, without it, you know, let's

hope Russia doesn't kick off, but,

and I'm sure at that kind of scale,

it, the likelihood is it isn't.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And so how do we, how do you keep guys?

I think you can, what you can

keen think do is you can, now you

can reinstate the idea that the

British army is a force for good.

So you can go and build schools and

you can go and provide stability in

unstable areas and you can go on, do

peacekeeping operations without it being

imperialistic, without it being dominant.

You can go and do the good stuff if a guy

who like joins Iry, but oh, you know, I've

spent x amount of time building homes,

or I spent x amount of time providing

counter poacher stuff in in Kenya.

Like those are stuff and everyone's

oh, he is got a peace chest.

Or he is, he's a sergeant and

all he is got is coronation

and can't help when he is born.

Can, he can't help when he is born.

Yeah.

And then it's just then the issue,

'cause we find this a lot right, is.

Belittling within the toxic

parts of the veteran community.

So why would I would identify any

form of kind of toxic behaviors

where you feel the need to try and

dominate another person, right?

Whether we're talking about masculinity,

the veteran community, whatever.

If you feel the need to constantly

dominate other people, it creates a toxic

environment where people are just like,

I just don't wanna be around that person.

I don't wanna be in this is awful.

Don't wanna be in this relationship,

don't wanna be with this person,

don't wanna be with this group.

Whatever.

That's my, that's how I

would define it, right?

So then when we have the toxic

veteran community and they're like

slagging off these young lads, we've

gotta understand is a lot of these

young lads are still struggling

with their mental health issues.

And a lot of these young lads now

feel like disempowered to speak to

someone about their mental health.

'cause they're like, oh yeah, but I

didn't deploy to Afghan, or I wasn't,

you know, I was there 2010, 2011, like

people are, oh, I wasn't there then.

I haven't done anything like that.

And it's listen I haven't

done anything like that.

And the next veteran

who says they haven't.

And they haven't, and they like,

don't even think about that

because where does it stop?

Like guys from.

Afghan feel like he can't speak out.

'cause guys said it wasn't as bad as Iraq

and the Iraq guys don't wanna speak out

'cause it wasn't as bad as the first one.

And then the Falklands and then

the Korean War and then the second

World War, next thing you know,

you've got, well you didn't lose

your eye in the Battle of Hastings.

Yeah.

So what do you know?

Just don't even entertain that.

Right.

Just come and speak to someone

about your mental health if you're

struggling with your mental health

because the toxic side of their

veteran community, which is actually

generally speaking, the most vocal.

Yeah.

Like they're the loudest.

Yeah.

Like the 99.999% of the veteran

community are not toxic like that.

And they're like, bro,

like what do you need?

How can we help?

Are you okay?

Is everything all right?

Like they're, the vast

majority of them are like that.

But it's that narrative of

oh, you've got a piece chest.

You haven't done anything

with your career.

That then means that those guys

feel like they can't speak out.

And where'd you draw the

line on What's banter though?

You know, because I love ripping

some of my mate Yeah, sure.

For it.

But what, how do you distinct between

what's banter and where's the line of

actually you, you're just being toxic

and a bit of a dick genuine intent.

What's the genuine intent?

And instantly the perpetrator of that

can then say, oh, I'm really joking.

So it's an element therefore of the

individual who's on the receiving end

of it, and people who are bystanders if

you like, apathy just enables an abuser.

Someone going, I don't wanna get involved.

Just means that bloke who's a

bit of a bully gets away with

being a bit of a bully more.

Yeah.

And I just wanna point out that

I'm not always proud of my service.

I was of that era of like

big bolshy gob shots.

Like I was a big bolshy gobs shot.

I, and like I, you know, I've come out the

other side of that and gone through the

therapy that was normalized and accepted

and promoted behavior and the people who

could have intervened and stopped me.

Either were apathetic towards

it or we're encouraging of it.

Yeah.

So like when we say, I don't wanna get

involved, what you're actually doing

is you're empowering that person.

So what comes banter is if

somebody says something like, oh.

That's gone too far.

I'm only joking.

Okay.

But that has now gone too far.

I think everyone's entitled to be

told that they've gone too far.

Like almost Yeah.

You warn it and that

person should be accepted.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, sorry mate, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Taken on board.

Yeah, it was a joke, but I

didn't realize it would have

that response and I'm very sorry.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

That is absolutely banter.

And then we should create environments

where people feel like they

can say that has gone too far.

Now it's when people exist in

environments that are so toxic

where they can't say that.

That's a really good point.

You know, like Fraser, who's filming his

podcast now, he is as bold as you like,

and he is 23 years old or something.

Looks about 40.

So we like giving him a

lot of abuse, you know?

Yeah.

For sure.

But you know, for sure.

I also feel basically I'm saying

that if something goes too far.

He'd be like, actually bro yeah.

That's a bit much.

And don't get me wrong they'll

rip me as hard as you want, but

edit in some reels and it'll be

there like fing a blinder at me.

Yeah.

Can illiterate infantry break?

But you, but like the difference

'cause of the relationship that exists.

Yeah.

Right.

There's an element of trust and

love that goes between, exists

between all veterans, right.

That we all kind of shared

experience of that kind of thing.

Like we never directly

served with each other.

Although Fraser did say that he knew

of me from my pre power days, which

makes me feel like really Barr?

Yeah.

Absolute fucking brick.

I think he's gonna beat me up

in the car park in a minute.

But but yeah, but there's that shared

thing that we've all got right.

And we can, you can say things

to each other that you definitely

can't say to a civilian, right?

Yeah.

There's things that, there's ways that we

will talk to each other that when I'm on.

If I'm in front of a committee board

trying to get them to invest in

my product, I definitely not gonna

call one of them a fucking screamer.

Do you know what I mean?

But that's okay for us to

speak to each other like that.

Yeah, that's okay.

But because the intent Yeah.

Is that, and there's that preexisting

relationship, and if you were to

say something else, you'd be like,

actually, bro, you'd be like, oh shit.

Sorry mate.

Yeah.

Like genuinely it was a, an

accident and I didn't mean it.

And I'm sorry it won't happen again.

Okay, cool.

So for me, that line between

when has banter become something

that's really toxic, it's first

and foremostly the intent.

And you see people act like dicks

towards someone and you're like, you

are just trying to dominate that person.

Yeah.

To make yourself feel

better about yourself.

Just chill out, man.

Like it's embarrassing and

like we are all grown up enough

now to see what you're doing.

So like the more you do that to

him, the more we dislike you.

Yeah.

So that, so what's the intent?

And secondly, like if the

person were to call it out.

What would the response to that be?

And if the response to that is, I'm

really sorry, mate, like I didn't realize

it won't happen again dah, then cool.

Then it's not, there's

nothing toxic about that.

But it's, when you say, actually, mate

probably don't make a joke about that.

Dah.

Yeah.

And they're like, oh God,

there's such a snowflake.

And it's actually, mate, like your

response to being called out suggests

that is you are being hypersensitive.

Yeah.

'cause actually, you know

that you've been called out.

So just chill.

Just chill man.

Just relax on that.

So, so yeah, that, that's

where I would identify that.

But it's, but it is, there's a

maturing time within the army and

I think there's something that

doesn't often get appreciated enough,

which is we're children until like

you're maturing into like young men.

And then by the time you potentially

leave after 22 years, like you're a fully

grown man and within that time, like

you are going, you're going to have to

grow up, you're going to have to learn

those things through trial and error.

You're like.

And I'm not excusing behavior, but

I'm just trying to get people to

like, understand better that sometimes

soldiers make huge mistakes because

they're kids and they're kids from

really difficult backgrounds and

they make really terrible choices.

Mistakes are allowed though, right?

You know, mistakes are allowed.

It's what should be judged as your

response to the mistake you've made.

Right, right, right,

right, right, right, right.

Obviously like you can't murder

someone and be like, oh my bad.

Yeah.

Didn't do that.

Shouldn't have done that.

But yeah one of the things that I always

really struggled with was when I was

ever in trouble, which was a lot getting

shouted at by like a sergeant major for

let's say having a fight on a Saturday

night or whatever, and they're shouting at

you for that, and you're like, but you are

known as being one of the worst for this.

Apparently you were an absolute

nightmare as a Tom, so why what is this?

Because this is, then that's

just performative rage.

Yeah.

You're not really angry.

You're just pretending to be really

angry to try and belittle me.

Because you've got this

opportunity to do so.

But what I've done hasn't

personally affected you.

Why are you angry about it?

Yeah.

It wasn't you.

I had a fight with, it was just

some knobhead like, well, who cares?

Like, why are you so angry about it?

Yes, I deserve to be punished.

Yes.

Put me through the system dah.

But why are you screaming and shouting?

And it's the reason why that

person is screaming and shouting

is because the really decent

guy who would've been an amazing

sergeant Major got out 10 years ago.

'cause it wasn't in a meritocracy.

The guy who sit there and go, you

fucked up, but you don't need me

to shout with you for that, do you?

No.

You know that, right?

This is what's gonna happen.

Yeah.

Da.

Far more productive.

Far more productive.

So, so that yeah.

What comes down to his intent?

Or it's always about

what did you mean to do?

And if you've offended someone, that

intent doesn't mean that you are

excused from making that mistake.

It just means that like you're not

judged, you're not punished for it.

You're just, oh, stop.

And quite often, as young men, we

will do that, cross that line a lot,

and we'll need pushing back there is.

And there's loads to learn

from that we do with that.

We also need to be like, I think,

I feel like within the military,

particularly a lot of the men that I

work with we, we need to hammer that

into them about being more supportive of

vulnerable members of teams, including

how we approach and treat women

within our teams and within our units.

There are women in combat roles now.

So what was historically just

groups of men fighting each other.

There are now women in that,

there's lines that have to be drawn.

If she says, I don't find that funny.

Stop because that's not okay.

And that's like a, that's something that

the military is having to go through now.

And there's lots of people who

I think I feel like have taken a

little bit of advantage of that.

And there's lots of women who

have been really mistreated

by the system and let down.

And I think that the army is.

It's going to have to look at how

we approach this because perhaps

there's a better way, a more

effective way of communicating

this than a yearly DNI brief.

Yeah.

Powerful stuff.

Jeremy, man.

Thank you.

Let's get into your business now.

Cool.

How did you start it?

Where did it come from?

I mean, there's so much to

unpack with it, like Right.

Working on Harley Street.

It's, it was cool.

It's cool.

Pretty prestigious, isn't it?

It's pretty prestigious.

Yeah.

That, I mean, that was

that was just a mad time.

It still is like mad.

I get like all these really the guy

who, the doctor who runs my clinic,

it's a doctor for the enhanced

games, which is just so cool.

Love it.

Yeah.

Right.

It's so cool.

So yeah.

Yeah.

So I left the army basically because

I was just getting really messed

around in the mental health team.

Yeah.

It was really badly managed.

It was really badly ran.

I'm really thankful for some of

the people who were there, who

went, Jim let's sit down and let's.

You are like running resilience

coaching, like there are an unbelievable

amount of opportunities for you.

Maybe start exploring that.

I started exploring that for about five

minutes and got invited to go to the

Paralympic rowing team and brief there.

Yeah, left brief there.

Got all of these opportunities,

presented themselves to me.

Terminated my, I actually went in and

the woman who ran mental health was ran.

It was a civilian woman and I spoke about

my career and she went, I'll stop you.

You're never gonna leave the Army, James.

You need it too much.

And I was like, oh shit.

Okay.

I went, alright, thank you

very much for your time.

And I got up and I left and I

went and signed off like there.

And then we just went to the

nearest terminal, just did the.

It was seven Clicks of Freedom,

seven Clicks of Freedom, I

believe it's 11 clicks now.

They've made it four clicks.

Harder to do that will slow 'em down.

Yeah, so I did the, and went into the

Seven Clicks of Freedom and yeah, and

then went into yeah, just went into

effective coaching and mentoring and

did like counseling courses and night

school and did all of that stuff.

I did all of that through COVID

and I always pushed this narrative

of like how you treat your body is

gonna have a massive effect on your

mental health, but also your mental

health has a massive effect on

how you choose to treat your body.

So, there's this great psychiatrist

called Gabble Mate who says, don't ask

why the addiction, ask why the pain?

So like someone who like drinks

loads or takes loads of drugs

or eats loads, they know.

Cognitively, they know that what they're

doing isn't great for them, but they

don't respect themselves or something

awful has happened or whatever has gone on

that they've gone, I just need to escape

how awful my existence is by doing this.

Like, why is somebody like

chronically addicted to dopamine?

Is rushes a dopamine we get from

alcohol and drinking and drugs?

Why is somebody chronically

addicted to that?

Is it because they like being high

or is it because actually they're

so miserable internally that they

need to find a way out of that?

And so basically like I, I just built

on that idea, the idea of developing

resilience to improve, like wellbeing.

Not just performance but like wellbeing

and mental health and did my counseling

'cause I wanted to be, I wanted to

provide like a really good product.

So I didn't just want to be coach.

I wanted to do my psychotherapy

counseling courses.

'cause I wanted to provide something

that could fundamentally, like really

help people do a really in deep good.

Product that, that encompassed everything.

So you could understand about why they

were the way they were, you know, the

childhood stuff that affected who they

became and then be able to use the

resilience side of it to coach them.

So that's what I wanted to do.

And yeah and a guy who, the power of

social media who was following me on

social media, this guy Dr. Michael

Sagner, and he said, have a conversation.

And I was like, yeah.

And we met in London and we've met,

you know, this is, we met in the, what?

Oh God, what is it called?

He will laugh at me for not being able

to remember, but it's like the Ralph

Lauren Cafe and like Oxford Street,

you know, it's all like gold in that in

there, like bu and like we're meeting

in there and I'm like, I'm wearing

like the only shirt that I've got.

You know what I mean?

The only like iron trousers and

polished shoes that I've got.

I had to took everything that I

could to not bull the ends of me

c shoes, you know what I mean?

Like you're that much of a c crow.

And he was literally like talking to me

about all this stuff and we swapped ideas

and he said, yeah, I'd be in contact.

And then.

I went and he's, he know, had

a place at Soho Farmhouse.

So I went there and we had some,

we had lamb together you know, just

like that guy, like real cool guy.

He's exs Swedish, SF diver,

you know what I mean?

He's, his shirts are always

way more unbuttoned than mine.

Think my UNM bad for unbutton shirts.

He's always tanned.

And like we would chat

and catch up and dah.

And then he basically said, listen he's

got clinics in the Mediterranean and

he's got opening clinics in America.

And he's I'm opening a clinic on

Harley Street and I'm looking for

someone to run, like the resilience

in psychotherapy side of stuff.

So when someone's in there, I can refer

them to you if you'd be interested.

And I was like, yeah.

He said, come along to the clinic

and we'll have a walk around

and show you what you think.

And if you've never been on High

Street, mate, it's absolutely.

Could you have you been on to High Street?

If you seen?

It's absolutely mental, so anyone who

hasn't, and obviously I'd never had

any experience of anything like this.

They're like big old

Victorian houses, aren't they?

Yeah.

And you go in and it's like these

massive doors and you'll just

open it and it'd just be like

an operating theater in there.

It's just so, so just go in and so

you're saying like, say if we do, like

in the clinic, we'll do like same day

surgery so you can go with a bad back.

They basically then just scan and they'll

show you on the iPad, go, well, you've

got a bit of a bulging disc there.

We'll get the anesthetist in, the

surgeon come in, ODP will come in.

They put you in the theater, put

them to sleep, operate on them.

Bentley pulls up out the front,

they get loaded into the Bentley,

they get sent home crazy.

I was like, oh my God.

He was like, this would be your office.

And I've got a balcony that

like overlooked Harley Street.

And we did like loads of photos in there.

And then we just started having,

you know, anyone who basically was

involved in sort of like cutting edge

performance stuff would go into I

mean I did like cognitive tests, like

reactive tests, like all the diodes

and all that stuff stuck to your head

doing all these like cognitive reactive

tests and they'll just show me like.

Like the difference in reactive speeds

and what we can do and how like we can

then employ these cognitive processes

to develop people's and you're

like, wow, this should be really,

and basically it was about sales.

They were trying to sell us this

thing, so we put it into the clinic

so the athletes could use it.

So it's just like all

this cutting edge stuff.

But I mean, that, that's

been an amazing part.

My, and I still take referrals from

there, but as like the business grew

and developed, I was finding myself

working with more groups, I'd go and

support more veteran groups and stuff.

So I'm going into Harley Street

and actually going into the office

just became if I go into Harley

Street to talk to an individual

in that office, that's like a day.

But if I can do it via Zoom.

I can speak to 10 people that day.

Yeah.

So it just became more

about doing it via Zoom.

I'm still like connected there.

I still speak to the dots all the time

and we still chat and we'll meet up.

He's actually just moved to 10 minutes

down the road from me now, which is cool.

Yeah, he's just got a place in the

COTS world, so we're just gonna meet

up there and chat some stuff over.

But yeah, like a great guy, like

really like fascinating, interesting

guy who's and yeah mate, like finding

yourself there as a accordion.

I think that there's a lot to be taken

away for individuals who are from working

class imp impoverished backgrounds, who

then can make their way, who've been

facilitated and given opportunities to

get out that actually then have a lot.

Of wisdom to then impart onto people

who haven't had those experiences.

That's actually one of the things

that annoys me a little bit about

resilience because I speak to

people who like will say, work in

corporate wellbeing and resilience

coaching, training and stuff, right?

They have these products and they

go into like businesses, they're

going into banks, whatever.

They charge two and a

half, three grand a day.

Wow.

Right, right.

And you're like, what's your story?

Oh, I worked in finance, I worked in

finance for 30 years, then I burnt out.

So then I set up a coaching model

to help people with resilience.

And you're like, that's

such bullshit, man.

What were you even talking?

So you agreed.

Drove you to that point.

Yeah.

And now you are running a product where

you're charging like free grand a day.

And there are people who I know

veterans who've left the military,

got these amazing stories who've

like really studied and worked hard.

They should be charging three grand a

day, but they don't, they charge 500

because they don't value themselves

enough even though they should.

And like their experiences

absolutely dwarf yours.

And yet you've got the monopoly on this.

And because it's a reflection of

privilege, because you sit in that.

That tax bracket and always

have done your whole life.

Yeah.

Your friends are more likely

to pay you to turn up.

Yeah.

And there's guys who are way better than

you, who are knocking on that door, but

that door will never get opened for them

because they're not from that tax bracket.

Yeah.

Crazy.

So yeah, that and just the business

developed and yeah, so I, I did

some work with Icarus, which was a

charity that supported veteran mental

health, the counsel and stuff of them.

They were great.

Really super intense, but really great.

And yeah, just I mean I loved it and yeah.

And next thing led to the next thing.

Led to the next thing and now

I run this program helping

veterans transition outta prison.

I'll still take individuals, one-to-one.

People reach out all the time.

I still take referrals from

the clinic on Harley Street.

I just, now I, these big projects

is like a real opportunity to like,

change the system, you know, create

better infrastructure for veterans.

Yeah.

If we can one of the things I'll talk

about is Brazilian jiujitsu for veterans.

Yeah.

So I wrote my masters on that.

I wrote Brazilian Jiujitsu as

a complimentary therapeutic

practice for veterans.

Could it be considered

complimentary therapy?

If we prescribe things like yoga, could we

prescribe things like Brazilian jiujitsu?

And my argument, which I, you know,

I got a distinction for it, was,

yeah, absolutely you can, and this

is why producing models based around

wellbeing and actually how does

Brazilian jiujitsu fit into that?

So like that.

Paper that's been written about how BJJ

is really good for your mental health.

That was mine.

I wrote that.

I limped to the end.

I had an, some, so much help with

it because I was like calling up on

people like, help me, this is so hard.

And yeah, got it over the line

and it went down really well.

So now I include things like

BJJ, like more veterans should

be doing BJJ, a hundred percent.

No personal experience.

Been, you're a purple belt now.

No blue, nearly purple.

Yeah.

Not purple.

He says gets tapped in the kids' class.

But yeah, no, the yeah, so basically I

used the PERMA model, which is positive

emotions, engagement, relationships

meaning and achievement, which is

basically the model that we use to decide

of something as a wellbeing practice.

So if something meets all of

those, is that wellbeing practice?

And I say BJJ does.

Okay, cool.

But then that's just my bias.

So then what I had to do is go

and find proof that it does.

Yeah.

So what I then did is a secondary research

by getting basically like literal review.

So I've got every paper that's ever been

written about the mental health and combat

sports focusing on Brazilian jujitsu.

And then I went and ex extracted the

things that they said from the evidence,

whether they had say for example

quantitative data where they got people

to rate their mood before BJJ, and

then they rated their mood after BJJ.

And I said, right, see,

P positive emotions.

Yeah, I've got five papers here

written by these guys that show that

there are positive emotions that

come from doing Brazilian jiujitsu.

Therefore, that fits into the

P positive, but it's not just

the fact that it's wellbeing.

Why specifically to veterans?

Because there's lots of

reflections of Brazilian jiujitsu

within the military structure.

So when you ask there is like effectively

what you asked me is what's your rank?

It's a rank structure.

Yeah.

Right.

And when we wear belts, there's a

very clear rank structure and how you

stand and how you dress and how you

walk and how you talk to those people.

What is okay to do like in the

Army, we're making it less, less

and less okay to bully younger guys.

It's not okay to heal hook white belts.

Yeah, right.

It's that in the gi yeah.

It's, this is frowned upon and

that's frowned upon and you shouldn't

do this, you shouldn't do that.

So there's a rank structure,

there's a clear code of ethics.

You are part of something.

Right.

That's one of the best things

about Brazilian jiujitsu is.

It is the, that you see the

full spectrum of society, right.

It's the only place where a

police officer could strangle

a convict and get away with it.

Yeah.

Because it's true.

Right?

And there's yeah, I know.

I'm gonna say that.

I'm not gonna say that.

Yeah.

But,

right.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

There's no other sport, you know, I

think, although it may be changing

a little bit, like boxing, there's a

lot of animosity and it sells tickets.

But you don't really

have that in juujitsu.

It's a shake hands chatting

before, have a scrap with someone.

Yeah.

If you're competing.

Yeah.

Check your hands.

Carrying the conversation

from five minutes previous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Whenever I see these reels whereby

somebody gets overexcited in a

competition, I always think, I

guarantee you are a piece of shit.

If you slap someone or hit someone

in competition, like in mid round.

Yeah.

It's always what are you doing?

You need to do that.

Maybe just try being better at Juujitsu.

Yeah.

But it's so, it's that.

So, and then there's like the aggression,

like there's hanging out of your ass

and then there's open map back to

bat where you are the worst one on

the mat and everyone's beating you

up because you're, I love it, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love getting, yeah.

It's humbling.

Yeah.

It, you know, and, but it's just,

it's a different form of vision.

We've fizzed our whole lives and it's,

it can become a bit monotonous, I think,

because it's something that's new, it's

different and we're arguably shit at it.

Yeah.

Like anyone that thinks that

anyone, when you start, you're not.

You're awful.

It's just so funny now, like when you

have a better understanding of how

important something like ground game is.

Yeah.

You just realize how vulnerable

you really were your whole life.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like you didn't realize how many

17 year olds will destroy you.

Yeah.

All they have to do is get a hand on you.

Yeah.

The moment that they touch you.

Yeah.

It's over.

And anybody, the, everybody

says that's not true.

And then everyone in Brazilian

Jiujitsu says, that's definitely true.

Yeah.

I, as soon as, because I remember

his turn up thinking, this guy, his

name's Clive, he's 60 years old.

Yeah.

He's got a bit of a belly, you

know, bit rough around the edges.

Lovely chap.

And I thought, brown belt.

What's that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, this ain gotta be hard.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

First session I was like, what is this?

Yeah.

Like I can't even move.

Yeah.

But what are you doing to me?

Yeah.

Why can't I move?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's wow.

And then you've got 16-year-old

kids that you think they're a kid.

Yeah.

Nah, absolutely not.

And it's, yeah, so, so one of

the great things about the gym

I act was the Combat Institute.

It's run by this guy

called James Webb who.

Cage Warriors Light Heavyweight champion.

When Tom Aspenal walked out for his fight,

WEBY was on his shoulder on the last one.

Yeah.

So like he ran the gym, right?

Yeah.

So it's just went like he would roll and

he'd be like, JI said, WEBY, you rolling?

He was like, yeah, we'll go.

And then it's just five minutes

of like just trying to survive.

Yeah.

Failing but just trying to survive.

It's still so enjoyable, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

It's so enjoyable.

I never thought that like that would

just become so addictive and so great.

But we have a fight team there and

they all compete in Cage warriors

and some of them are professional,

so it's ju this like energy and

you'd have this, there's this young

LA called rider He'll love that.

I've brought him up on a podcast, a

young guy called Ryder and I think when

I met him, I think he was 14, maybe 15.

And like he would just tap

me and tap me and tap me.

And you're like, oh my

God, this kid is horrible.

The loveliest young man, like just really

kind and caring and like they all are.

But like just this lovely young man,

but just an app you have no, you'd

look at him and you think whatever.

I think he's 60 kilograms,

something like that.

You'd be like, whatever.

Absolutely.

Ru would ruin your day.

And to this day, if I'm

rolling, he's we'll go.

Because it's obviously like a, you know,

it's a slightly different story now.

But he just wa he just,

he's just up for it.

Like he just wants it.

And it's so indicative of being so

nostalgic of being in the army and having

like young toms, when you are like a

little blo, like a full screen, you've

got young toms who are like fit and keen.

You're like, want it and it

reminds you of those guys.

And you're like, yeah.

That's, it's recreating that same

dynamic as we spoke about before.

Recreating that same dynamic, but this

time you've got a little bit more control

and that's what's so enjoyable about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I put all of that into a paper.

And the importance of social networking.

Soldiers are really bad at networking

because if, oh no, I want to sit in my

house now and say everyone's a piece of

shit and everyone's a screamer apart from

me like that, I'm just gonna, there's an

inch of wall over there that doesn't have

a piece of military memorabilia on it.

I need to put something on that and

I'm gonna sit here and be really moody.

And you're like, actually, when you

get out into the outside world and

you do mix with some of these guys,

like it completely changes your life.

Does.

And like Brazilian jiujitsu

is a wonderful way of just

meeting good like-minded people.

You know, whether or not you meet

someone and you've got some plastering

that needs doing, and Oh, that's okay

because the local purple belt is a

plaster and he'll come and do it and

he'll come and have a laugh with him.

Yeah.

It's a non-military milage,

but it's another community.

Yeah.

It's exactly what, and you

touched on earlier, the Army

advert of this is belonging.

Yeah.

And.

Everyone belongs in jujitsu, you know?

Yeah.

There's great banter of pretty

much everywhere you go, the

lines are drawn where they are.

I know there's obviously always

bad sides to it and some stuff for

women, but generally women are safe.

Yeah.

In world can I go in

have a scrap of a woman?

Yeah.

In a safe, controlled way where

they're not gonna be injured.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's also humbling as well when you've

got a girl, woman folding you up and

I'm like I wanna be embarrassed by this.

And you're just not.

I, it's oh, cool.

That's wicked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We we've got one Emma, and she's just

it's like psychotically hard as nails.

So like her rib pops out, but

she's don't worry about it.

Just keep going.

Yeah.

You know, Emma, please stop.

And she's double jointed.

And the first time I found out she was

double jointed was in side control.

Straight the arm up, just

arm back from side control.

Typical heavyweight.

And like her arm goes all the way back.

Yeah.

And it's Emma, please.

And she's it's fine.

I'm double jointed.

Wow.

And you're like, what

the fuck is going on?

Yeah.

Please stop.

But these girls are like,

hard as nailed, man.

They're like, yeah.

'cause all of your like male

instinct is to, I shouldn't be Yeah.

Attacking, I shouldn't be hurting a woman.

Yeah.

And then you like, yeah.

Yeah.

But like their artist

nails like send Yeah, send.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like their artist nails.

Yeah.

It's, they're the ones least

likely to give away a tap.

They're not gonna, she's not giving

you, you've gotta work for that work.

She is not giving you that tap.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's no.

I'll tell you when it's on.

Yeah.

Oh.

Alright, Emma.

You know, bad.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

And so I took that and I put

that into a scientific paper.

And now what I do is, one of the

things, one of the many aspects of

the program that I'm doing helping

veterans transition outta prison, right.

Teaching to the prison service to

encourage them into stuff like.

Combat sports.

'cause there's also actually a

huge amount of emotional control

that comes into Brazilian jujitsu.

Lots of people really struggle with.

Yeah.

Like when you're on the bot, when you're

four minutes into a six minute round and

you've been on the bottom for that entire

time, it is hard not to lose your temper.

And you have to stay calm and

focus and think and stop and

learn that emotional regulation.

And actually that's something that

a lot of Scotties think they're

really good at, but they're actually

not, particularly now when they lack

the social support, they don't have

the army system to protect them.

They're now out on their own.

They're very isolated.

They actually become quite emotional

and reactive, making like big mistakes.

And so actually a great way to help

teach that emotional resilience

is go through some Brazilian

jiujitsu and learn from that.

Yeah.

Let's get a piece of advice off you,

Jimmy, for let's go with veterans.

One piece of advice for someone that's

struggling, so if we're talking about

struggling with your emotional health.

One of the key aspects that we

do is get people to zoom out.

So an abnormal response to

an abnormal situation must

actually be considered normal.

So quite often we, we get diagnosis

and symptoms the wrong way around.

Bare hit me out.

So I was like diagnosed with depression

as a child, but I would say that

depression was actually the symptoms,

the diagnosis was the environment.

So this kid feels like everything

is completely pointless

and futile and useless.

I mean, he's being fairly systemically

abused by people who should protect him.

Nobody's jumping up to protect this child.

Nobody's looking after him.

So the diagnosis is depression.

No, I'm feeling depressed

because of these things.

So we talk about a piece of advice for

veterans is let's first and ly stop.

Let's reach out and get the support.

'cause what we often find when we're

in a much calmer space is we're able to

identify what is creating this distress.

Yeah.

Say for example, loneliness.

Right?

Lots of veterans really struggling.

The diagnosis here is actually loneliness.

It's not depression.

The diagnosis is actually

loneliness because you spend

so much time socially isolated.

That's just one example

of what it might be.

So then we encourage 'em

to reintegrate into groups.

Things like veteran associations,

things like Brazilian jiujitsu,

things like sports clubs.

All great opportunities for veterans

to reintegrate rather than going,

that person is depressed and lonely.

Know that person is depressed

because they're lonely.

Let's solve the loneliness.

Yeah.

And see what that does to that.

So my piece of advice of veterans is

reach out and get the support because

you're far more likely than be able

to find out what the source of the

problem is and then we can address

that rather than sitting there.

And this becomes a greater

problem when actually the source

of it is something that we could

solve together a long time ago.

Love it.

Really good bit of information.

Thanks, man.

And there is the support out there.

You load, there are community groups

out there for veterans that need it.

A piece for your younger self let's

take it, you know, the worst point

of your childhood when you're quite

young, what piece of advice would

you give to your younger self?

Just because these people are like,

that doesn't mean that everybody is

like that because that's really hard

because as a child they're the yardstick.

So not every woman is gonna let you down.

Not every man is gonna let

you down, but you carry that

with you throughout childhood.

And we become really avoidant as adults.

Even there's just like loads of stuff,

like how many veterans don't really

like staying at each other's houses.

We'd rather get hotels.

I would rather Why you're being avoidant.

Yeah.

Because you're so used to being let

down and that's something from childhood

that you've carried into adulthood.

So if I could say to my younger self,

not everybody is going to be like that.

I would also say to my younger

self, ask fa out sooner.

Don't wait until you're 35 to ask fa out.

Ask her out as a teenager.

Because she's the one you didn't have

to wait 20 years to ask that question.

Do you know what I mean?

But obviously congratulations on

you your marriage last year, man.

Yeah.

It was cool man.

It was cool.

It was wicked.

Yeah.

Yeah, mate.

Beautiful.

You know, and like marrying the girl that

used to sit next to her at school, you

know, like it's something really nice.

But what was funny right?

Was that the at the wedding,

because we did we did 30 man

wedding and we did a banquet table.

Yeah.

So we got married at Clearwell Castle.

Right.

And and we had a banquet table,

which is so cool by the way.

'cause then you've just got like all

of your mates sat on one long table.

Yeah.

You feel like King Henry viii.

And then like her bridesmaids

were like her friends from school.

Yeah.

And then like my groomsmen

like one of them was Swede, who

like I met when I was like 18.

So it was like this whole

chronological aspect of my

life was like all on one table.

Yeah.

And so like Georgina, my daughter sat

next to me and she's 15 this year.

Yeah.

Crazy.

So Georgie was there and like

my best friends were there.

And then there's like this whole we

all were like in the same English

maths history science classes

together, like all on one long table.

Yeah.

Which was just absolutely mad

and like really beautiful.

But yeah, that man that,

yeah, it was great.

Great, like I loved, I, and I loved

getting married and I'm still at that

phase where and I hope I always am,

but I really enjoy being married.

It's like a cool thing to be, you know?

Awesome.

It's nice, man.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Any misconceptions you want

to address while you're here?

Of anything misconceptions that

I want to address about anything?

I guess one of the key things that I find

myself doing a lot is, always, there's

nothing wrong with being skeptical

of information, but please make sure

you're skeptical of all information.

Apply the same skepticism that you

would apply to something that disagrees

with your biases as you do to the

things that agree with your biases.

So if you are really pro something and

you see a headline that agrees with you

and then you see a headline that disagrees

with you the same skepticism, you apply

to that, you should apply to that as well.

'cause that will then lead you to the

truth and actually what is going on

and why apply skepticism to all of it.

Look at things like, and like we

don't do enough, like critical

thinking education, full stop.

But if you were to do something like

a scientific, if I talk about pico.

Which is persons population,

interventions, controls, and outcomes.

Right.

That's how we analyze.

That's one way of many ways.

And it's like data analysis is like

insanely hard to do, but one of the

ways that we like identify scientific

papers is who are the people involved

and who are the people who made it.

So if I was to say, for example,

every single person in the Army can

run a sub eight minute mile and a

half, you'd be like, no, they can't.

Your first question would be where the,

where on earth have you got that from?

Yeah.

Which is the perfect question.

So who are the people

who are involved in that?

So who made the experiment?

Yeah.

Why do they make that experiment and

who do they use in that experiment?

But it turns out that they are

the makers of silver shadows and

they use silver shadow trainers.

And the people that they used

was the PT core endurance team.

Yeah.

So is that then, is that a fair group

that they've created that from No.

So first and ly skepticism,

who is the people?

Who are the people involved in

this and why have they done it?

Things like there was a paper that

came out that was it was basically

like anti-climate change and

climate change isn't a thing, but

like the guy was like paid by oil

companies to create this thing.

So it was like that should

disregard that paper.

Yeah, right.

Entirely.

But so, so that's, so if I was to

create a paper and that's so first and

foremost, and then the interventions.

Okay, cool.

So like the headline is

like super fit, but, okay.

What are the interventions

that we've put in there?

Well, it was running a mile and a half.

Mile half is not, as you pointed out

earlier on, is not, that's not indicative

to someone who's a good soldier.

Not even necessarily that fit.

They can just do that thing.

And the control was the distance

that they ran and the time that

they ran and what was the outcomes?

Well, the outcomes that you proved is

that tiny group of people happened to be

really fit and that they could do that.

But you ha your outcomes.

You haven't actually proven that.

But by taking that and then

presenting that as misinformation,

you've now gone, these people are

like the army's super fit then.

Yeah.

So you should take that skepticism of

everything that you will read and apply

it to anything that you hear and read.

So someone goes, oh, study show, duh dah.

What study?

Yeah.

Like you see this all the

time on podcasts, right?

Someone will go, oh, study show.

Did what?

Study What study?

Because as I've shown there, we've just,

that made up one about the PT core.

You could, I could generate a study

that shows anything that I want.

Like I could Google studies that

show studies that show informed

sport is the best thing ever.

You go Absolutely.

Fucking not You wanna throw that chow?

I can see it in your eyes, but

I could, but I could Google

that and I could find that.

Yeah.

And then I could go on a podcast

and say, A study shows this.

Yeah.

But that's studies like massively flawed.

All I've done is I've just

reinforced my bias Yeah.

By finding something that agrees with me.

And I've used that to say,

oh, this is true then.

But that's not how science works

and that's not how it works.

We take like consensus.

Yeah.

So what the loads of studies show

if, if I was, if you was to cross

a bridge and there'd be a hundred

scientists there and 99 of those

scientists says that's completely safe.

And once a scientist said, I, I'm not sure

that it is, you'd listen to the 99 and

the nine nine say, it's absolutely fine.

Yeah.

So you, it's like about consensus.

You need to take that.

How do we identify misinformation?

Because we can't rely on social media

platforms to talk about misinformation.

We can't rely on groups to

talk about misinformation.

You have to learn how to

spot that as an adult.

And you have to then learn how to

read information so that you can go.

I don't buy that.

I don't think.

I think that's shit, you know, when how

you talk about certain ingredients that

go into products and people are like,

oh, I heard, and like God knows, right?

I don't know anything really.

Oh, I, creating gummies I think has

been like the latest one where it's

been like really controversial.

But like you've been saying for ages, like

those creating gummies are a load of shit.

Yeah.

Or like a way is measured in

the nitrogen that it gives off.

Is it ferments or something?

And that's not an accurate

way of measuring weight.

That's just your ma your,

you're measuring nitrogen.

Yeah.

Like you've effectively,

you've applied pico to that.

Yeah.

Well who are the people saying

that it's full of weight or

the companies that own them?

Yeah.

Oh, so it benefits them.

Yeah, like that.

And so, but people don't understand

how to do that because there's so few

people calling that misinformation out.

We don't know how to critically

think, we dunno how to critically

analyze information so people will see

something that agrees with their bias

and just go, oh, I'm gonna repost that.

And now, and particularly then, if you

are in a position of influence and power.

Within the veteran community, more

people are gonna believe that.

Yeah.

But you go, but that's not true or

that's not what that legislation says.

It's like being the

Barrack room barrister.

You know, someone who's like

convinced they know the legal

processes for everything.

Yeah.

Utterly the Army comment.

You do that, it's not legal.

You find me.

The army makes you do whatever

fuck it wants you to do.

Yeah.

Real world.

You do your bro, if it's underneath your

bar, it's not against Army regulations.

They can't shave it off.

Yeah.

And then they're getting pinned to

the floor and having their head shake

like oh but Queen Berg says yeah.

Shut up.

Shut up.

Right.

So like it's about learning how Yeah.

The biggest misconceptions we need to one

of the biggest things we need to change

is that learn to apply the same skeptic

skepticism to things you agree with,

to the same things you disagree with.

And learning about one of the best

things that people can do, because

people simply don't do this enough.

People don't read.

I'm not saying they can't read,

I'm saying they don't read.

And it doesn't have to be self-help

books and it doesn't have to be stoicism

and it doesn't have to be like science.

It can also just be stories.

Like why are less young men

reading Lord of the Rinks?

These are like really powerful stories.

That's like how we started.

Yeah.

Talking about the power of stories.

Like we glamorize war, but power of

stories and heroism and love and loss.

Like the things as human beings

we find so inspiring, but people

don't read because if it doesn't

fit on a six second reel Yeah.

Or if it's not a, it's not

like brain dead entertainment.

Like we don't, people don't tend to watch

it and absorb it and identify it and look

at things like underlying themes and what

they're actually trying to say and yeah.

What that actually looks like.

Like explaining to someone that

the fairytale creatures in Shrek

are representation of the L-G-B-T-Q

community and they're all in

inter interracial relationships.

And there's even a trans Yeah.

Transvestite wolf.

Yeah.

And people are like, oh,

I've never seen it like that.

Yeah.

And you're like, because you don't read.

Yeah.

Because we don't teach

critical thinking anymore.

Yeah.

And I think so many problems in the modern

world will be solved if people could,

someone could stand up and say something

and people go, I don't think that's true.

Yeah.

Or like someone could say something in a

podcast just 'cause it's on a. And you're

like, maybe we need to look at that.

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

I need to look at the data.

If people could just apply

those simplicities of how

to analyze information.

Like just I think so much anger and

so much resentment and so much like

us versus them would just be removed.

'cause you'd be like, that's not true.

Yeah.

So that man, cool.

We've got one more thing for you Jimmy.

Go on.

We know you like our cups.

So love.

Here's a new one for you to try so much.

I'm excited.

Old camera.

So this is gonna be like, you know,

Jimmy didn't know he was getting these.

He's a white chocolate

caramelized biscuit.

It's bis off, not bis off.

'cause we're not allowed to say that.

And hopefully he does that.

I wanna pull my feet in as well.

If he doesn't like them, hopefully

he won't spit them at me.

Okay, here we go.

Here we go.

Fucking hell mate.

That's.

That's a lot of protein in that as well.

That's 10 grams and 'cause there's two.

'cause I'm gonna have 'em both.

That's 20 grams of protein in that.

So he is, there we go.

Look at that.

Oh my god.

These are wonderful.

Magic.

Oh my god.

Magic.

Thank you Bob.

Thank you for having me.

You very mate.

You're very welcome Jimmy.

Thank you for coming and sharing your

story, catching a mouth full of food.

Thank you for your service.

Thank you for coming over.

Cheers brother.