Jayne Ray: Hi, everyone! Welcome to another episode of Joyous Journeys Over 60. I'm Jane Ray, and I'm here with my podcast partner.

Andreas Stein: Andrea Stein. Jane, it is great to be with you again.

Jayne Ray: It is, and I'm at a pretend beach.

Andreas Stein: You shouldn't.

Jayne Ray: So, for those of you that maybe are in the colder climates, we're based in Florida, just wanted to give you some kind of warm, cozy, beachy feeling while, we're recording today. So.

Andreas Stein: That's right, we're in early January, and we have, like, 85 degrees outside and sunny, it's beautiful.

Jayne Ray: It is beautiful. Last week, it was 30, which for Florida is pretty unusual, and you're all welcome to laugh at us, because we're in hats and gloves and

Jayne Ray: you know, 3 layers of clothing, and, you know, you would think that we were in Arctic winter, we're so climatized, so it's kind of interesting. Hey, if you have not already joined our Facebook group, Joyous Journeys Over 60, I highly encourage you to do that. You know, listening to a podcast is great, but having a chance to interact

Jayne Ray: with others, with peers, and we can talk about some of the topics that we address on the podcast. So, again, if you are a Facebook user, please go up to Facebook and join our group. It is a private space, but you can see it publicly. None of the posts are public, everything is safe.

Jayne Ray: you can feel very confident in terms of sharing with others in the group. It is a protected space, but it is a good opportunity for some interaction, and we're very, very excited about that.

Jayne Ray: So today, I am doing something I very, very rarely do, particularly on camera, and that's that I'm not wearing any makeup.

Jayne Ray: And I have my hair not even nicely coiffed, because the topic we're gonna talk today about is…

Jayne Ray: the aging body.

Andreas Stein: I mean, I'm not wearing any makeup either.

Jayne Ray: I know, Andreas isn't wearing any makeup either, which, you know.

Andreas Stein: It's…

Jayne Ray: frankly, pretty common for him. But, you know, for a vain woman who, in a few weeks is going to add the number 1 to 7, so I'll be 71 in a few weeks, you know, not wearing any makeup, you know, going out in public.

Jayne Ray: Looking in the mirror, seeing, you know, the fact that my face doesn't look like it looked like 30 years ago.

Jayne Ray: there's a lot of emotions associated with that, and it isn't just the aesthetics of the aging body. We're going to talk about the aesthetic part and how that influences, perhaps, how you feel about yourself, but there's also the physiological part, where, you know, my first word in the morning when I wake up is, out.

Jayne Ray: And I think there's probably more than a few others listening that their first words in the morning may even be a little bit more profane than the word, ow. So there's a lot of changes, and I think that

Jayne Ray: You know, when you reach a certain age, particularly 60 and over, maybe even 65 and over, it feels like

Jayne Ray: the aging part accelerates. It feels like, to me… now, I recently lost some weight, so when I was heavier, my face was fuller, and I, you know, those wrinkles were hidden. But for me, it feels like the last few years, all of a sudden, the owies

Jayne Ray: got to be more frequent. The wrinkles, definitely started to… to pop out. I have not yet let my hair go natural, but if you look carefully, you'll understand that,

Jayne Ray: It's… it's there, I just choose to cover it up. And so, with those physiological changes, and… and visual changes.

Jayne Ray: I think come a lot of emotional changes, right? It's a very visual reminder of the aging process. It is, certainly something that

Jayne Ray: I don't think there's a lot of discussion about how do you feel?

Jayne Ray: When your… when your body, that, you know, you've lived in for this many years is suddenly, you know, acting differently, or in some cases, maybe even rebelling.

Andreas Stein: You know, I just, just yesterday, I think, saw a picture on social media that somebody posted of something I did 6 years ago, which is not that long ago, but I looked at that picture and I realized I had substantially more hair 6 years ago than I do right now. Now I have barely any, as you see, hardly any hair left.

Andreas Stein: You know, and when I looked at myself from 6 years ago, oh, this is how I used to look. I kind of, you know, like to have more hair than what I have right now, but, you know, short of wearing a wig, that ain't an option. And so we kind of, alright, you know, how do I…

Andreas Stein: deal with the fact that I will probably be completely bald at some point, you know, and also just, you know, very recently got my second knee replacement, so, I always, always loved to go to the treadmill. It was not just my

Andreas Stein: physical exercise, it was my way of managing my emotions, right? You know, you had a stressful day, and you just run for half an hour, as hard as you can, and at the end of this half hour, you feel really good, because you get all of that…

Andreas Stein: stress, that frustration, you get it? You're running out of your body. Well, it ain't happening anymore, because my niece will let me know that there is a price to pay if I would ever try to do this again, and that price is not making it worth it, so…

Andreas Stein: Yeah, I mean, we, there's just physically, it's not just, you know, the aesthetics. Physically, there is stuff…

Andreas Stein: that we can't do anymore, or that I cannot do anymore, that used to be very important to me, you know, just for my own emotions, for my own life.

Jayne Ray: You know, it's interesting, and I'm so glad you brought that up, because most of the time, when

Jayne Ray: you hear or read about, kind of, the aesthetics of aging. It's mostly women.

Jayne Ray: Right? It's mostly women. I mean, there's products out there, man, they're… you want to buy a cream, magic solution, it's gonna take away all your wrinkles, it's gonna, you know, cover up whatever. And so, we mostly think that, what is it, vanity, thy name is woman? But no, I think men…

Andreas Stein: Oh, yeah.

Jayne Ray: Also, very much react feel… about changes in body, changes in, physical appearance. And I think that

Jayne Ray: it crosses over the boundaries of, right, that it isn't just… Now, we do have the option of putting on some makeup and covering up some flaws, and, you know, for a little bit, it may feel like, you know, we're… we're… we've taken the years back a couple of times, but

Jayne Ray: The reality is, it's… you look in the mirror, and suddenly you see your grandmother.

Andreas Stein: What are you gonna do about that? I mean, you see your grandma, you feel that knee is barking at you non-stop, you feel something is hurting in your body nonstop.

Andreas Stein: You look at yourself, and you wonder, who is that person? I mean, you know… So, alright.

Andreas Stein: I mean, that's true for a lady as it is for a gentleman, you know, and maybe guys tend to express it differently, you know, maybe better at covering it up, but it just impacts guys just as much as ladies, so what do we do? What do we find

Andreas Stein: that confidence, where do we find that strength and say, alright, I… I can't turn time back, I can't go back to when I was 45 years old, or whatever, time will move me forward.

Andreas Stein: So where do we find the strength to do that?

Jayne Ray: Well, I think the first step is not to pretend, right? So, not to pretend that, that this process is not happening.

Jayne Ray: Because I think it's, it's, you know, there's kind of two ways to do this. You can go into total denial, which, you know, there's some benefits to that. Like, I'm going to go into denial that, you know, I'm going to be 71. But… or you could start to feel really sorry for yourself.

Jayne Ray: And, you know, again, think about it, if you weren't aging, what was the alternative?

Jayne Ray: you know, that's a pretty extreme alternative. But again, I think there's a range of emotions that come from this, that, part of it is

Jayne Ray: acceptance. Part of it is, in some ways, it's mourning. You know, when I was working, we talked a lot about, the Rogers adopt, what is it? The Rogers…

Jayne Ray: grieving model.

Jayne Ray: Have you ever heard of this?

Andreas Stein: I heard of it, but I can't exactly remember what it was about.

Jayne Ray: So, it's how people adapt to change, right? So, you know, it starts off with people get angry, and then they go into denial, and then somewhere in the curve, after denial, they go to acceptance.

Jayne Ray: And acceptance is the bottom of the curve, and then as it comes up the curve, you start to experiment a little bit with the change, whatever the change is, right? A positive, you know, positive response to the change, and you just experiment to see how it feels.

Jayne Ray: you know, how do you change your outlook on it and whatever, and then at the top of the curve is full acceptance, right? So, I forget what they call it, the Rogers Adoption Curve. If somebody's listening, go to the Facebook group and correct me. But it is a curve of how people respond to change. And in some ways.

Jayne Ray: it's… they call it a grief curve because you're mourning something, right? You're mourning what was compared to what

Jayne Ray: is, or what will be. And so maybe aging has a little bit of that same curve.

Jayne Ray: Right? Where, you know, first you're like.

Jayne Ray: Oh, man, I got all those wrinkles, I'm really kind of mad that I didn't take better care of my skin when I was younger, or I wish I had worked out more, I wouldn't have the joint pain that I have now, or, you know, I could have lost that 50 pounds, or whatever. Then you go into denial, like, well, it doesn't really matter anyhow, right? You know.

Jayne Ray: I look fine, I act fine, I'm fine, I'm good. And then slowly but surely, you start to experiment with

Jayne Ray: Well, what is this new me? What is this new me?

Jayne Ray: Right? And I think that as you go through those stages.

Jayne Ray: There are so many things to realize that you may have changed on the outside, you haven't really changed on the inside.

Jayne Ray: And so, how do you experiment with, okay, I can't really walk upstairs anymore? I really can't. I mean, I can play tennis, pickleball, but for some reason I can't walk upstairs. And so… and it's frustrating, because there are times that I have to walk upstairs.

Jayne Ray: There's no other way to get up to where I'm going. And so, okay.

Jayne Ray: I could avoid it, or I could find an elevator, or I could just walk up the stairs really, really, really slowly. So I think part of it is, is, is, first of all, feel your feels, right? We talk about that all the time. Feel your feels. You know, try to find…

Jayne Ray: some way… to… Be around people that are not only supportive.

Jayne Ray: But they don't care. I mean, you know what I mean? They don't care that, you know, your knee hurts, or you can't do this, or you can't do that, or you look a certain way. You know, we talked about, before we started recording, the benefits of community.

Jayne Ray: You know, I think the reason we like to live in a 55 and older community is we're with people that

Jayne Ray: say, ow in the morning, and, you know, their skin is… looks a little bit like mine, and but they're hopefully finding things to do, or you're finding things to do, to feel really good.

Jayne Ray: I don't know, what do you think?

Andreas Stein: I think… You know, that realization…

Andreas Stein: I no longer look the way I used to look.

Andreas Stein: I no longer can do the things I used to be able to do.

Andreas Stein: can be a pretty traumatic moment, you know? It's not just a vain moment of, you know, well, you know, it's fine, but it…

Andreas Stein: It really makes it clear that, You know, we…

Andreas Stein: We don't know how much time we have left, there, and so we're… and when this becomes not just a thought, but a visual, when this becomes an image, it really can almost be very intimidating.

Andreas Stein: And I start to question myself, is there anything that I still have to offer? I mean, I'm not looking… not that I ever looked attractive, but I never… not look anymore the way I used to. I can no longer do the things I used to do. Is there anything I still have to offer?

Andreas Stein: You know, is there a… and I think you're hitting the right word, there… Community, but being…

Andreas Stein: having a… Network of relationships, friends, people who…

Andreas Stein: You know, either going through the same process, and fighting the same battles, or have an understanding, an idea about what this is about.

Andreas Stein: And being around these people can allow me to find that confidence. Alright, yes, I'm not looking the way I used to, yes, I cannot do the things anymore that I used to be able to do, but…

Andreas Stein: I st… I still have…

Andreas Stein: people who care for me, there's still people who love me, I can still be in this community, we still have a great time, we still enjoy each other, we are still there for each other, and this… I think this community can rebuild that confidence.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, I think so too, and you know, it's funny, one, you know, a lot of people knock social media, but I think one of the benefits of groups like the one that we started for Facebook is also being able to talk about

Jayne Ray: Some of your feelings that maybe you don't feel comfortable talking to, your loved ones, your children, your spouse.

Jayne Ray: You know, where you can… you can kind of normalize a little bit, and feel like, you know, and I belong to, a couple of different Facebook groups, and again, it was, I think, one of the motivations for starting the Joyous Journeys Over 60 Facebook group.

Jayne Ray: Shameless plug, but… Yeah.

Andreas Stein: Heh.

Jayne Ray: But it is the opportunity to… to talk about this in a safe, comfortable space, because it is remarkable how many people are feeling the way you're feeling, but are not comfortable

Jayne Ray: Turning to their partner or their children or, you know, anyone else and saying, you know.

Jayne Ray: I don't know, I just don't feel the way I used to, and, you know, the next thing you know, your kids are, you know, figuring out who you're gonna live with, or, you know, what…

Jayne Ray: assisted living community they're going to put you in. It is… there is a certain pride, I don't know if that's the right word, that… that, that we hold ourselves back from admitting

Jayne Ray: that… Not only, you know, do we… do we feel differently, but we're a little scared.

Andreas Stein: Yep.

Jayne Ray: Right? We're a little scared. And… and so being able to

Jayne Ray: have that kind of connection, whether it's living in a 55-plus community, whether it's joining a senior book club, or a senior fitness group, or a senior Facebook group, or somewhere where you feel that you can be you.

Jayne Ray: Among people who… who perhaps are on the same journey.

Jayne Ray: And I think that for me, I know personally… I mean, you're not even at retirement age, so not that you don't count, but…

Andreas Stein: I'm happy I'm not at retirement age, but being retired kind of is attractive.

Jayne Ray: Don't say that! But, but, you know.

Jayne Ray: I do live in a community where the large majority of people are over 65, and

Jayne Ray: I play tennis with a senior group. I belong to a church where the community is over 65. So, I have tried to surround myself with people that grew up like I grew up.

Jayne Ray: So not only is it… is it that we look the same, meaning we all have, you know, the wrinkles, and the gray, and the new knees, and, you know, what brace are we wearing today? But it's also people that if I talk about a band, or I, you know, I talk about something that happened.

Jayne Ray: you know, in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, they know what I'm talking about, right? So, it is also surrounding yourself with people that are…

Jayne Ray: that grew up in the same eras that you did, are looking in the mirror the same way, and are feeling the same way that you do. Because there are… and I can't say this enough, Andreas, there are so many feelings that go with the aging process, with the aging body.

Jayne Ray: And those feelings are real, they're a little scary, they're not something we admit to easily.

Jayne Ray: So it's not something we're going to necessarily tell…

Jayne Ray: other people about. And it, it does affect our self-perception.

Jayne Ray: And depending on, you know, how bold you are.

Jayne Ray: Many people find ways to overcome that. I talk about cruises a lot. Remarkably, how many people on cruises are on scooters? You may not feel comfortable being on a scooter in a cruise ship, right? You may feel that, you know, that's not your thing. But there are ways to overcome it.

Andreas Stein: And I think what you just mentioned, Jane, really, really resonated with me. He said, you know, if you don't feel comfortable

Andreas Stein: talking about how we feel, our insecurities, our weaknesses, you know, everything that goes with it, because, you know, we like to be strong in front of others, and I think

Andreas Stein: The real power of a healthy community is that it is a place where you not just have fun, play cards, play tennis, read a book together, whatever the specific thing is.

Andreas Stein: But we're… at least it's safe to, at least at times, to talk about, you know, these fears, these feelings that come with it, because we all experience them, you know? I mean, whether you're in a church, or a book club, or a tennis court, or a gym, or…

Andreas Stein: playing poker, or whatever else you do, you know? If you… if you're 65 years old, chances are you feel these things, and…

Andreas Stein: Yeah, I guess you can't talk about it while you're playing tennis, but still, the idea of about a community is you have fun.

Andreas Stein: But you are connected closely enough as a people that, you know, you can even talk about some of that stuff.

Andreas Stein: that's a little bit difficult to talk about, because it doesn't portray you in the best of lights, it makes it clear I'm human, and I'm struggling with this.

Andreas Stein: If there would be a magical marker, if there truly would be one that I can use to wipe out these, you know, wrinkles, I, I mean, I would spend any money there is, don't you mean, you know?

Andreas Stein: But there ain't, you know, even though you keep hearing it marketed, there are, but there is not, you know.

Andreas Stein: And to talk about this, you know, and…

Andreas Stein: And I think that can be truly a healing power of community, you know, where it's safe to… to not keep it a secret, but say, you know, it's… I'm struggling with that.

Jayne Ray: Let me give you an example, and unfortunately, we're going to run out of time, but it just reminded me of something. So, a few weeks ago, we went to the engagement party of a friend of my husband's daughter had gotten engaged, and so they invited

Jayne Ray: A group of people that actually we haven't seen in a long time, and these are really good friends of my husband.

Jayne Ray: And so we're sitting around, just the… just the adults, right? It was after the party. Right. And I don't know who brought it up, but somebody brought up how hard it is to make friends.

Jayne Ray: When you're retired.

Andreas Stein: And…

Jayne Ray: And it was interesting, because it's true, most of the friends you make are in school or at work, right, and suddenly you're retired, and it is difficult to make new friends. But what's remarkable about this was that

Jayne Ray: Suddenly, Almost everybody at the table agreed.

Andreas Stein: Yeah. Right?

Jayne Ray: Like, yeah, you know, we moved to a new community, it's remarkable that, you know, we haven't… it's been very hard for us to make new friends. I mean, acquaintances, yes, but to make friends, to have dinner with, or, you know, do things with. And it was really interesting that it kind of opened up

Jayne Ray: a conversation that I don't think would have happened

Jayne Ray: well, it happened organically, but I don't think it would happen normally, where you would say, gee, you know, I'm really having a hard time making friends, because somehow it…

Jayne Ray: It puts you in a lower light. So, I guess if anything comes out of this,

Jayne Ray: Community is… is important. I mean, this has been a theme you and I have been talking about since we started this podcast, that the importance of being around people that,

Jayne Ray: that are experiencing some of the things you're experiencing, right? That each chapter of your life, you tend to find your… your group. I call them your tribe, right? Find that.

Jayne Ray: I think the other part of it is…

Jayne Ray: Feel your feelings, right? Go through that acceptance curve, But…

Jayne Ray: don't stay in any of them too long, right? Because there's so much joy that's still around, regardless of the wrinkles, regardless of the new joints, regardless of all of that. There's just so much joy that is still available in your journey, and and…

Jayne Ray: don't hold yourself back, right? Don't, don't, don't allow yourself to, to look in the mirror and, and think that

Jayne Ray: It's over. It's not. It's not.

Jayne Ray: So…

Andreas Stein: See, by the time you get to retirement, you're gonna be so well prepared. By the time I get to retirement age, I will most certainly not have any hair on my head left.

Jayne Ray: I don't know, by the time you get to retirement, maybe, maybe. It is the one thing of vanity that I have not, given in to yet, which is letting my hair go natural. But lots of other people I know that are in their 50s, 60s, and they've done it, and they're gorgeous. I'm just not… I'm not there yet.

Andreas Stein: You try to dye it in some funky red or blue or green…

Jayne Ray: Hey, you know, let me tell you something. There are women I know that are into their 80s that are doing the, what do they call it? The fairy tinsel, and have little purple streaks in their hair, and you know what? Good for them.

Jayne Ray: Good for them, you know?

Andreas Stein: gonna do it, Jane?

Jayne Ray: No. No, I am, I am fortunate that, that, enough that I, can cover the gray, so…

Jayne Ray: It's all, it's all good. Anyhow, if you're listening, I hope, I sincerely hope, and I think Andreas does too.

Andreas Stein: that…

Jayne Ray: Let's look in the mirror again.

Jayne Ray: And see the real you, right? Look beyond the aesthetics.

Jayne Ray: And realize you're still in there. You're still in there.

Jayne Ray: I don't think that's important.

Jayne Ray: So, Andreas, as always, it's a pleasure.

Andreas Stein: It is a pleasure listening to you and learning from you, Jane.

Jayne Ray: I don't know about learning, I said I'm on the journey like everybody else, but again, if you are listening, and you would like a chance to connect with community and talk about some of your feelings, and maybe just some of the topics we're talking about, go into Facebook, look for Joyous Journeys Over 60, and join our private Facebook group.

Andreas Stein: So, until next time…

Jayne Ray: Happy New Year! Happy 20th!

Andreas Stein: Happy New Year, indeed! It is 26! When the heck did that happen? Yeah, I know.

Jayne Ray: All right, well, we will see you soon. This is Joyous Journeys Over 60. Bye, Andreas.

Andreas Stein: Bye, Jane.