The question comes up, does mediation work?

If you are trying to divorce a narcissist, spoiler, no.

But the strategy you're gonna hear about today is going to open your

eyes to how to better equip yourself for mediation with a narcissist.

But let me briefly explain something.

Many parents are court ordered to mediation with no ability to adjust that.

So even though they know they're going into mediation with a high

conflict parent, they're still having to do it because it's court ordered.

Some people go to mediation in just hopes to avoid court and getting it

all done and wrapped up themselves, and then they quickly figure out they're

dealing with a narcissist or somebody with a narcissistic personality.

And mediation goes completely different than how they expected.

So in a nutshell, will mediation actually work all the way

through with a narcissist?

Probably not to its fullest.

Can you get something agreed to?

Yes.

I'm not gonna say never, but it's going to be a hope and a prayer

and a whole bunch of money that you could get something done.

But let's break this all down.

Why?

Mediation usually fails with a narcissist, and this information can

be taken back to your attorney and say, look, like I know an expert that

deals with narcissists, and here's what I know is gonna happen in mediation.

Number one, they want an audience.

Right.

They want to grandstand.

They wanna talk down to you and make you look small.

They're gonna project 'cause that's what they're good at, accuse you of

everything that they're probably doing.

They wanna dominate that conversation.

They're gonna use all of the time to attack your character instead of

actually talking about the future.

They're gonna stay stuck in talking about the past and mediators

often don't shut this down.

When you have a narcissist that just like unleashes and uses like 15 minutes

to talk about this one thing you did two Aprils ago, and they're still stuck on it

and they bring it up and they start going down a rabbit hole of you did this and

you said this and you made me feel, and that mediator sometimes has their jaw on

the floor going, oh, we have one of those.

If it's an experienced mediator like myself, we'll shut

that shit down real quick.

If it's not somebody experienced or it's somebody that just wants

you to have billable hours sitting there, because I know I talk about

this a lot, but I just wanna give a a little bit of a, spoiler here.

If you're new to divorce, it is a billion dollar industry.

That's with a B. Okay?

Billions upon billions, the number goes up every single day.

We're talking 9, 10, 12, $13 billion a year industry.

I'm not mixing words when I say there's money in this business.

And so if a mediator sits there and lets you have a 12 hour

session, that is not by accident.

That is not by accident, that is intentional, and that is

to pad their own pockets.

I did mediation for years and I never once, not once, you can never

find one time that I did mediation over an hour for each session.

The max I ever did with one couple was six.

That's six hours total.

I have clients who are coming to me to help me have me help them, coach

them, and they are like, Sam, I just did a 12 hour mediation session,

Sam, I was there for 13 hours, Sam.

I was there for eight hours.

Are you kidding me?

No way.

No way.

I'm losing sanity after recording a couple podcasts.

I can't imagine sitting in a room with my ex for hours on end.

But you know who does get energy out of that?

Narcissists, they love it.

That is like the breeding ground for their bacteria to sit there in grandstand and

make you feel small for hours on end.

And I don't even care if you're not in the same room.

They'll be in talking to their lawyer and their attorney and be like, well,

that one time she, and he's over there.

But they just talk to hear their own voice.

But let's break it down.

Time is money.

So while you're narcissistic or personality disordered, you know X is

over there running in Yap in their jaws.

You're paying that whole time.

Narcissists can easily burn through the clock and you gotta keep track of that.

You can't be letting that happen.

If you realize that mediator's not shutting that shit

down, you need to walk away.

Here's what you need to expect is gonna go on.

Besides them just running their mouth.

You have to be mentally prepared that you may have very little time to talk because

they've talked so much and I've had this happen to my clients where they're

like, Sam, the mediator was in that room for an hour with my ex and then came in

and told me I only had a few minutes to decide because he had used the whole hour.

What?

How is this fair?

I would be saying something, but you have to understand the system

to know when you're allowed to say something and when not, they will try

to control most of the conversations.

You have to know that, and here's my caveat, that I would just tell,

parents out there, I would say, whoa, excuse me, mediator, but you were

in that room for over 45 minutes.

Number one, I'm not paying for you to be in there talking for that long.

Number two, then I get 45 minutes.

But the part that high conflict people don't understand, and this

is just an educational piece.

Mediators are supposed to be neutral parties.

They're not there to make decisions.

Now, I will say there's an asterisk to this, that if you're in specific

states that mediators do choose for you.

It's called a three tier program.

Different tiers of mediators do finalize your divorce or at least bring up a

summary report to give to the judge.

So make sure you know what type of mediator you have, and probably most of my

listening audience is under the assumption that their mediator's a neutral party.

But ask that question, Hey, mediator, as they're over there yap in their fucking

jaws about something I did two Aprils ago.

Are you even a mediator that makes a final decision or are you just here

to help us navigate as best you can in negotiating and whatever We don't

decide that goes on the table for the judge, and most of you have a neutral

party, so why are they with that one for an hour and me only 10 minutes?

Right?

So expect the accusations as well.

Your ex will be accusing you of being a drug addict, an

alcoholic, an abuser, a whore.

You name it, you've done it.

Ask them, they'll tell you.

Don't get triggered by this.

Go into it expecting that on the Bingo card.

And if you don't know what a Bingo card is, I can make a whole podcast about it.

But I want you to predict what your ex is going to do in this mediation.

Expect every bit of your history together.

That's negative to be brought up.

Expect them to be performing the whole time to the mediator, because what they

don't realize and what they weren't coached on and what they don't know and

what their attorney didn't tell them, is this mediator most likely does not pick.

They're over there trying to bamboozle and win over this mediator, right?

They think it's a court appearance.

They think evidence should be talked about and brought up, and

that's just not where this happens.

And so expect to just sit there and gather Intel, baby.

We're there to just collect.

For me it's fishing, I'm going fishing.

I'm trying to figure out where all the sweet spots, where all the fish are at.

That's what I'm gathering.

I'm gathering info.

Oh, we're over here.

Seems like there's a lot of fish over here.

That subject, I love that subject.

'cause I can prove that that's a lie.

Oh, over here there's a lot of fish.

Oh, it sounds like I have evidence to counter what he's saying over here.

I'm collecting intel.

They keep talking.

I keep writing all the accusations.

Perfect.

That's their whole case.

Their whole case is being spewed out of their mouths in mediation.

All of it.

So take notes.

Don't sit there and go, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're accusing me of that.

Fucking predict that shit they probably told you on a

text message three weeks ago.

Anyways, why are you acting so shocked?

Write the shit down.

So how can you make mediation still work for you?

Shift your mindset.

You are now going fishing.

I'm gonna dig around and see where all the fish are at.

You are collecting all the intel.

You're not there to convince the mediator that you're a perfect fit.

You're not there to convince your ex to sign this parenting plan.

They weren't signing it before they walked in the room.

They were there to perform.

They were there to be righteous with all of their thoughts.

You are there to observe.

You are going to use that mediation session to see their strategy.

'cause they're gonna tell you, they're gonna accuse you of stuff.

Perfect.

That's what they're taking to court and that's probably what's in their

discoveries and all of their evidence alleged stuff that's happening.

You're gonna watch to see how they react to the few things that you do bring up.

If you bring up a visitation schedule, boom, let them shred it apart.

Now you can better prepare for your court case or better

prepare your parenting plan.

It's going to help you if you are later, going to have a GAL or

a court evaluator in your case.

Everything they're saying in mediation will be the exact same thing they

will say into that GAL or evaluator.

It's going to be the same info, so gather it.

Let them show all their cards.

Let them pull little Mel Robbins on their ass.

Let them let them spew their whole case.

They can't help themselves.

So what should you bring to mediation if you know you're headed into it

with a narc, a personality disorder person that's just gonna come for you.

Come prepared.

Cut down on your words.

'cause you're not gonna have much time anyways.

And have your parenting plan already written with you.

Let them over there yy.

Yap.

They came bare bones, by the way.

They didn't bring anything.

They brought their best piece, which is their mouth to speak.

They didn't bring a well thought out parenting plan.

They didn't bring a holiday schedule.

They didn't bring a visitation schedule.

They didn't bring the kids' class rosters of calendar.

They didn't bring anything about summer camps.

They didn't bring all that you did though, and you brought a

well organized parenting plan.

So you tell that mediator ahead of time.

Look, I'm not here to argue.

I brought a draft in, I brought a proposal.

It's a rough one.

It's a first draft.

I would love to hear their thoughts, but what I'm not gonna sit here and

do is be verbally abused and told that I'm this way, that I'm not.

I'm here to talk about the future and if they wanna keep

talking about the past, I'm out.

I'm out.

I'm not sitting here to talk about something that happened six Aprils ago.

I'm not gonna sit here and talk about how the divorce happened.

I'm here to talk about planning the future.

That is what mediation is about.

So when your mediator lets you start talking about two Aprils

ago, nip that shit in the butt.

We are not here to talk about the past.

We are here to plan the future.

And this is not the courtroom.

To bring evidence that you are better than me or I am worse than you.

Here is the spot where we plan our future, and if that's not what

they're here to do, then I'm out.

I'm fucking out.

I'm not gonna sit here and pay to get verbally abused by

an ex that I want a divorce.

So take your parenting plan.

You say, Hey, look, I already know what my thoughts are.

I already know what I want.

I'm here to propose it.

I'm here to fucking negotiate, which is what mediation is, is an

organized negotiation process by a mediator who should be in the mid

letting both parties have a discussion about what they see as best and

helping them navigate being heard.

So if I say I one A two five, and he says no, the mediator's supposed to jump in

and say, well, what are you proposing?

Not just no to a two five.

What are you proposing?

That's what mediation is.

Mediation is not about talking about that you screwed the pool

boy or that you spent half the fucking retirement without permit.

That's not what this shit is about, but that's what your high

conflict person will talk about.

Who gives a shit?

Oh, remember that two times ago when the kids were sick and you gave

them too much, you know, medicine?

Do you have a court report on that?

Did you file a petition with DCFS about that?

No.

Then move on.

'cause that didn't happen.

Let's talk about the future.

Let's talk about our kids' medical.

Perfect.

I'd love to know.

I'd like decision making on that.

You guys gotta be able to spin it back to the future, the whole time.

If not, walk.

Walk.

Why are you there?

You're there to plan your parenting plan.

That's the only purpose of it, is to talk about your finances, possibly, if that's

in the discussion or your parenting plan.

You're not there to talk about who's right, who's wrong, who

failed, who gave too much dime, ta No, don't let them do that.

But I mean, take notes if they do.

'cause now you know their whole case.

And then when you're done, you kind of know, okay, well that didn't work,

but you're able to hand your attorney.

Everything they're gonna say about you, so your attorney could start

preparing your case, but you have to know when to shut it down.

If it's a character attack, I'm out too many accusations about the past.

I'm out.

If we stop talking about the future, I'm out.

If they go down rabbit holes, I'm out.

And I'm gonna tell the meat eater upfront, I'm not being rude to you.

You're the professional.

I hope you shut this down if this happens.

But I know my ex well enough that they are just gonna sit here and use

this opportunity to talk bad about me.

And well, they're allowed to feel that way, and they're absolutely

allowed to have those accusations running in their head free.

This is not why I'm here.

I'm here to plan our future.

So if the conversation does not stand about the future, I'm out.

My ass would not be sitting there for any amount of time, over two hours.

I'm not doing anything.

I don't wanna do longer than two hours.

I'm a grown ass tax paying adult.

You are not gonna make me sit in a room for two hours plus

people that sit there for four.

Anything over two is asinine to me.

This is one of the most emotional decisions of your life and they expect

you to sit there for a marathon session.

First off, who's watching the kids during the second?

Secondly, am I taking a day off work to sit here and be verbally

abused by this motherfucker?

Absolutely not.

And paying my attorney no less to sit there and what?

Take notes that I could fucking take myself.

I get heated about this because this is what I do for a living.

I used to just sit with couples after couples after couples, and I'm talking

people that did not like each other, and we sat for an hour at a time.

We did not sit there for marathons.

That is not healthy for anybody.

'cause you know what ends up happening?

These are all my clients.

They'll come back and they'll say, oh, by like hour five, I was just saying

yes to whatever, because I needed to eat and I was hungry and I needed to poop,

and I was tired and I was emotionally drained and I was just so lost and

I felt like there was no end to it.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

You mean you planned your whole future in seven hours?

In one sitting and you didn't have water breaks, food breaks, bathroom breaks,

you didn't get out and stretch your legs.

F that, that is wrong.

That is so wrong.

It pisses me off.

If that's happened to you, that is not healthy.

That is not the way you plan your future.

When people build a parenting plan with my team, we take days

and weeks to build it together.

We're not like, oh, here it is.

Good luck.

That's not how this works.

You may be in one mood when you read it the first time.

A different mood than the second time.

Just like that day.

You expect me to make sound judgment when somebody's over here accusing me, accusing

me, accusing, no, I'm not doing that.

And again, I'll leave you with this.

Mediation is not for everybody.

It's not.

But I'm gonna do one college.

Try to know that I tried it, it didn't work out.

But if I'm gonna try it and I'm there, I'm gonna take really good notes.

' cause they're gonna spew their case right to me.

I have to have some self-respect and know when to walk out.

So what you can gain from mediation, no matter who you're going with, you

can really see how confident they are.

They're gonna act super con, like they have it in the bag, they got this.

You're gonna see what arguments they have.

You're gonna see their tone, their behavior.

And this is one that I love and I give my personal clients this

one, and I'll give it to you guys 'cause you're such good followers.

I'm going to bait them in that mediation to see what things

they really lose their shit over.

And then I'm gonna give that little intel to my attorney to slip in on questioning

on the stand so that the judge who does make the final decision on everything

can see how my ex reacts to this.

When I bring up this subject, my ex goes postal.

Oh, guess what?

They will on the stand?

They'll go postal because they're not being coached.

Right?

Right.

So you're gonna see their tone, you're gonna gather the information, and

then you're gonna go back and regroup and strategize with your attorney

and say, here's what I learned.

Here's what I got.

Now again, I'm not somebody that's gonna advocate for you to sit hours long.

I'm just not.

I'm gonna get a doctor's note that says, my client should not be in

any situation longer than two hours.

She can't sit for longer than two hours.

So it's a no.

She's going, I'm going to have my attorney tell the mediator she's

not doing anything over two hours.

I am not doing anything.

Uh, your future with your children is the most valuable fucking thing

you have, and they expect you to plan it in six hours with the person

that hates your guts at the table.

No, I would rather eat cat hair.

I'm not doing them.

I'm not.

It's okay you guys, and again, this is not legal advice.

This is a mom preaching to you that has been on this side of the table before.

This is your future, not the mediators, not your attorneys, and not your ex's.

It's fucking yours.

It's okay to stand up and say, I don't feel comfortable continuing this.

I am leaving.

Well, you can't do that.

fucking watch me.

Well, the judge is not gonna like that.

That's my attorney's job to smooth that over.

That's not my job.

My body is telling me everything to get up and leave.

Sam's voice is in my head and I need to leave.

This doesn't feel right.

Get the fuck up and leave.

Get up and leave.

We all have to come together and change how this is working for us

'cause it's not working for us.

Family law is not in our favor as parents, as good parents.

But when we keep playing into the system and sitting there and getting

abused and getting term, just fucking beat down and told and made to feel

bad because we wanna get up and leave.

No, no, I'm done with that.

I'm done with that.

I hired you attorney to fix my problem and if me leaving

is a problem, fucking fix it.

You fix it.

I don't care what you tell them why I left, but I'm fucking leaving.

I'm not sitting here for this.

'cause nobody's telling that motherfucker to shut up and he

keeps going and going and going and roll reverses if you need to.

' cause I know there's some crazy bitches out there that won't shut the fuck up.

But we need to get back to some old school where we tell people, you've

crossed the line, shut the fuck up.

I'm done listening to this.

I'm out.

Mediator, you're not doing your job and I'm not paying you 'cause you just

sat here and let me get verbally abused for four hours and you said nothing.

And I'm out.

Everybody has a boss.

Everybody does.

I am done with everybody just complying and sitting there and having ulcers,

and having hemorrhoids and having chest pain and having all these health issues

because you put yourselves in bad spots.

Nobody should be doing marathon.

Nobody.

I don't know who invented it, but I have a feeling it's somebody that

wanted to make a lot of fucking money.

It's not healthy for families to do marathon mediation.

Please refuse to sit there for that many hours.

So I'm gonna get off my soapbox, but it's something I did for years and I did it

well, and I was highly successful at it.

And I wish more mediators What?

I had exes that would start talking and I'd say, whoa, did you just shift

into paying me full-time for this hour?

Because I'm not splitting a bill with her listening to you just bash on her.

'cause that's not why we're here.

Now, if you wanna talk about the future, I'll keep splitting this bill

in half, but if you wanna sit here and use a whole session to talk about

her, then I'm billing just you and how quickly they'd shut the fuck up.

This is not an opportunity to just let people, we gotta go

back to sticking up for people.

This is not why we're here.

We're gonna talk about the future.

So if it's not about the future, please stop talking.

Well, I think I need you to know, no sir. I don't need to know because

this isn't about me making a decision.

This is about you two making a decision.

So unless this conversation's gonna continue, you talking her into something,

you probably wanna stop talking like that.

We need to say the things out loud that we're thinking all of us are shutting down

and we start becoming just these compliant robots to our attorneys and our mediators.

And I'm over it.

I am over it.

This is your future.

So while I'm gonna sit there and let them talk their shit for a little bit, and I'm

gonna take some notes, I'm gonna go, okay, I paid for an hour, I've gathered as much

information as I needed, and I'm out.

Hope everybody has a great day.

I'll be sending my proposal over from my attorney to your attorney next week.

It's been fun, but I'm out and I leave Q exit.

I'm out.

I'm not gonna do it.

All right, so mediation with a narcissist.

It's going to end with you probably walking out and your attorney's

taking over and you having a court date at some point in time.

Now, my team can help you with the parenting plan hands down, but you

can also get this type of coaching, this like, I'm heated right now

because I know the pain that people are going through in these long

sessions and just getting abused and just saying yes to stuff because

they think it's their only resource.

I hate to tell all of you that mediation's the first step.

You can send a parenting plan the very next day and say, Hey,

that was a fun little hour of our life, or seven, I'm not doing that

anymore, but here's our proposal.

And most narcissists will say no to the proposal and you'll have a court date

looming over your head in the following months, and you know what you're gonna do.

Send that fucking proposal the week of court.

There's a whole different strategy out there with high

conflict that I coach on that.

Mediators and divorce attorneys don't tell you about, they make you feel

like mediation is the only solution.

It's not.

It's not.

Especially if you're divorcing a high conflict person.

So I'm gonna lower my blood pressure by stepping outta here, but I just

wanna tell you, mediation is a tool, but it's not the only tool.

Walking in with your parenting plan is some of the best advice I can give you.

That way, no matter how much they start talking, you have the future on paper, you

are organized, you are well thought out.

Mm-hmm.

And it's all considered right here for you.

It's right here so that you don't lose your focus and you make sure

that your priorities are down on paper and you go into it logical.

Listen to this episode, save this episode.

So if you have mediation come up, you go back and you listen to all this and

you get all amped up, that's a whole reason I've done this podcast is that

I want you to save these sessions for yourself to where if you're going

into something, you're like, I need a little bit of sandwich me today.

Boom.

Play the fucking podcast.

Get all up in your, like, I can do this shit energy and then

bounce into that mediation with my energy behind your thought process

and your love for your children.

You are going to be unfucking unstoppable, but you go into it with just your attorney

and no plan and not listening to this.

You're screwed.

You're screwed because you're gonna feel like you have to sit there and take it.

Okay?

All right, you guys take it easy.