Jayne Ray: Hi everyone, I'm Jane Ray, and I'm here with, again, my fabulous podcast partner.

Andreas Stein: Andrea Stein?

Jayne Ray: And welcome to another episode of Joyous Journeys Over 60. We're really glad that you're with us, and we hope that your journey this past week has been totally joyous. How are you, Andreas?

Andreas Stein: I'm doing very, very well. I've been really looking forward to our recording this afternoon.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, me too, me too.

Jayne Ray: So, today we're going to talk about stereotypes. And, you know, for people over an age, stereotypes are really common. I mean, really, we get pigeonholed into all sorts of white-haired, rocking chair…

Jayne Ray: I don't know.

Andreas Stein: You are not white-haired, though, yet, you're…

Jayne Ray: I am not white-haired, and let me tell you, it's gonna be a long time before this 70-year-old gives up the coloring. It is part of my budget.

Andreas Stein: Alright.

Jayne Ray: But for many people who do decide to, you know, let their hair go natural, it looks beautiful. Just on me, I don't think that it does. But, you know, part of the stereotype of growing older is somehow, as you get older.

Jayne Ray: you kind of lose some of your edge. And, you know, I'm not ready for that rocking chair, yet. Rocking chairs are nice, but I'm not ready for that rocking chair yet, and I think a lot of people who listen to our podcast aren't ready yet either.

Jayne Ray: What do you think?

Andreas Stein: I agree, so… you think you're still cool, Jane?

Jayne Ray: Oh, heck yeah!

Andreas Stein: Are you sure? You think Sean thinks you're still cool?

Jayne Ray: Eric Clapton t-shirt!

Andreas Stein: Alright, this is just answering the questions from the wrong end, I mean.

Jayne Ray: I am part of the generation… granted, I was on the younger side of it, but I'm part of the generation that had the greatest music in the history of the world.

Andreas Stein: You're part of the flower power generation, right?

Jayne Ray: Flower power, baby!

Andreas Stein: Where's the flower in your hair?

Jayne Ray: Wow.

Jayne Ray: Or, you know, hey, peace. No, but, I mean, our generation were very freethinkers, and I'm very proud of that. I mean, I think as we got older and…

Jayne Ray: And, wisdom, you know, became, you know, more commonplace, and some of the idealism of when you're in your teens and your 20s kind of becomes more practical.

Andreas Stein: You're part of the Woodstock generation. Did you go to Woodstock?

Jayne Ray: I, you know, I'll tell you a funny story. I was invited to Woodstock.

Jayne Ray: And so, no kidding. So I lived in Brooklyn, New York, and we didn't know what Woodstock was, and the Catskills is a very common place for people from Brooklyn to go for vacation, or in the summer.

Jayne Ray: or whatever, and some people I knew, I was 14, and then some people I knew were going up there to a music festival, and they invited me to go. They were gonna drive up. Fortunately, my parents

Jayne Ray: were smart enough to figure out that at 14, I should not be going up to a music festival, remember it's the 60s, a music festival, with a bunch of 18-year-olds, and so they told me I couldn't go. In the end, I'm kind of glad I didn't go. I think at 14, I definitely would not have handled it.

Andreas Stein: So you didn't sneak out…

Jayne Ray: I did not sneak… I was not a sneaker router, I mean.

Andreas Stein: You were not?

Jayne Ray: I was not a sneaker router. My sister was, but not me.

Andreas Stein: So you were the good, obedient girl.

Jayne Ray: I was a very outspoken, teenager, so my parents struggled with that, but I was not somebody who did bad things. I just said bad things. Remember, it was the 60s, right? And so…

Jayne Ray: But, you know, I mean, it was the Vietnam era. People, you know, men I knew were being drafted, the music was very edgy compared to, say, the music of the 50s. And so we were kind of a transitional generation.

Jayne Ray: That we're facing, in some ways, much like today, but we're facing a lot of, a lot of things that maybe we were or weren't prepared for.

Andreas Stein: So you moved from the flow… you moved from flower power to a rocking chair.

Jayne Ray: No.

Jayne Ray: I mean, as I said, I do have a rocking chair at our place in Georgia, but .

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: I, but I think that, that…

Jayne Ray: once you reach an age, regardless of what generation you are, the stereotypes start to creep in, right? The stereotypes start to creep in where, you know, once you're retired over the age of 65, excuse me.

Jayne Ray: And you're collecting Social Security, and you're on Medicare, and somehow that translates into, I need to be white-haired, and I need to start cross-stitching, or I need to not be physically active, or just not be cool anymore.

Jayne Ray: And I think, you know, from people that I interact with in my community,

Jayne Ray: I think that stereotype is… is really… Hard to fight against.

Jayne Ray: So, in my community, we have a lot of tennis players, we have a lot of golfers, we have a lot of successful retirees. In our immediate neighborhood, we have people that are retired and living on their Social Security.

Jayne Ray: But living in Florida, because we're outdoors so much, I think it's easier for us to find hobbies, to be more active, because, again, we are in a climate.

Jayne Ray: That allows that, maybe not in the summer. But I do think you're fighting against a stereotype that suddenly you're old.

Jayne Ray: Right? Suddenly you're old. You think old. Your mental capacity is diminishing day by day. You're not current on, you know, modern culture. You're not current on raising children. I hear that from my daughter all the time.

Andreas Stein: Do you think… have you experienced, Jane, that people treat you old?

Jayne Ray: I'm fortunate maybe because my hair isn't white, that I don't get treated too old, but, but certainly when I say I'm 71, there is kind of a… what?

Jayne Ray: Not because I don't look 71, that's not really the issue, but I was telling you before we recorded, I was talking to a tennis coach, and I was looking to get some lessons in Georgia, where we spend our summers, and I said, well, I'm 71, and I'm, you know, I've been playing for the last couple of years, and he was just shocked.

Jayne Ray: I mean, he was just… I don't think he knew how to handle it, because he teaches adults, and somehow I didn't fall into the category…

Andreas Stein: You were no longer an adult. You were a senior.

Jayne Ray: I'm a senior. And so his definition of an adult that he's, you know, giving lessons to are 18, 20, 30, 40,

Jayne Ray: maybe 50? And here I am at 71 going, well, I really want to get some lessons. And so, I do think there are a lot of stereotypes. I think there are stereotypes that…

Jayne Ray: That we internalize?

Jayne Ray: I think there are stereotypes that are pushed against us, that we shouldn't be doing certain things, we shouldn't dress a certain way, we shouldn't think a certain way, we certainly shouldn't behave a certain way, because we are seniors, or we're old, and, you know, the next step is

Jayne Ray: you know, out of this world. So, yeah, I think there are a lot of stereotypes that want to push us

Jayne Ray: Into, you know, kind of a mold.

Andreas Stein: So let me ask you, Jane, in your own experience, the power of these stereotypes, is that more in you, like, you end up believing it, or is it more like something from the outside being imposed on you? Which is, you know, if you look at yourself, what is…

Andreas Stein: where's the power of these stereotypes coming from? That you yourself say, well, I'm 71 years old, I… maybe I should just, you know, spend 4 hours in the rocking chair with a cup of coffee and do nothing? Or is that more what people expect from you?

Jayne Ray: I think it's both. I think that…

Jayne Ray: We internalize the stereotype, right? This is the way we should be.

Jayne Ray: And it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, which I think that, to me, is the biggest risk of all.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: Certainly, you know, the aches and pains, when we do have aches and pains, I mean, I always say my first word in the morning is ow, but, where, you know, all of a sudden, that starts to.

Jayne Ray: Affect you so that you think you shouldn't, or couldn't, or wouldn't do whatever you're thinking of doing, because you shouldn't, because you're old.

Jayne Ray: Right? I'm old, so therefore, you know, fill in the blank, I shouldn't be doing this. I think externally, the cultural stereotype of older people…

Jayne Ray: are people that are, you know, we have new hips, we have new knees, we, you know, can't, shouldn't, wouldn't, and that we should take it easy. Take it easy.

Jayne Ray: Alright? If you look at memes about old people, they almost always refer to naps.

Jayne Ray: Like, part of being old is you should take more naps. Now, nothing wrong with a nap, but, you know, there's this implication that you should slow down.

Jayne Ray: And yeah, so if you think you should… if you're being told you should slow down, then maybe I should slow down.

Jayne Ray: Right? Or maybe I shouldn't be doing this. I want to tell you a really funny story that I just thought of. So, a few years ago, my husband and I were in Boca Raton, Florida, and there was a club called Platforms. I don't know if it's still there.

Jayne Ray: And on a certain night, they would play, like, 60s and 70s music, and so we went. And the people that went were mostly older people, 60s, 70s, 80s, and they were dressed in the 70s. They were disco dancing, and they were rock and rolling, and, you know.

Andreas Stein: So there was a silver disco ball on the ceiling, I hope.

Jayne Ray: Well, there was. There was,

Andreas Stein: Alright!

Jayne Ray: deliverable, and there were, you know, music videos on a screen, and…

Jayne Ray: And, you know, people… it was really amazing. And, you know, if you were an outsider looking in, you'd go, what the heck are these people doing, right? Because they were in platform shoes, and, you know, reliving a time of their lives that were, you know, was really special to them. And, yeah, if you were on the outside looking in, you'd almost make fun of it, like, what?

Jayne Ray: But, if you're one of those folks.

Jayne Ray: that are enjoying that. Who says you shouldn't, right? The stereotype says, you shouldn't be wearing platform shoes, you could fall and break a hip. Well, you could fall and break a hip

Jayne Ray: walking down the hall, right? Right. And so… so, again, to answer your question, long way of getting there, it is both external and internal.

Jayne Ray: Right? The external stereotype, how old people are portrayed in the media, on TV, on, you know, the Golden Girls, right? You know, how older people are portrayed in modern culture.

Jayne Ray: Is, is pretty common.

Jayne Ray: And so you could, you could, either, maybe subliminally… Internalize that.

Andreas Stein: Man.

Jayne Ray: On the other hand, when I go back to the Eric Claptons of the world, I saw Eric Clapton a couple of years ago, that's where we got this t-shirt. He's, what, almost 80?

Jayne Ray: maybe 80? I mean, you look at the Rolling Stones, you look at Eric Clapton, you look at Bruce Springsteen, you look at… I saw Paul McCartney last year, he's 83.

Jayne Ray: And still performing for 3 hours in a stadium that has 30,000 people in it.

Jayne Ray: Because nobody told him he shouldn't or couldn't do that.

Jayne Ray: And so, you know, we do have role models, at least from my generation, that are showing us that even at a certain age.

Jayne Ray: You can still do…

Jayne Ray: whatever makes you feel good. You know, at that point, I don't think they need the money. I think it's more of the joy of being able to… to perform. So we do have role models that, that we could look to to say, wow, they're… they're still out there.

Jayne Ray: What do you think?

Andreas Stein: You know, I'm not getting this image out of my head, seeing you dancing under a disco ball in, Bogaratan. I just, you know, like, mesmerized, you know, seeing that I, you and Sean dancing there. I, I said, oh, wow, I mean, that is,

Andreas Stein: I wish I could have seen it, I could have witnessed it, you know?

Jayne Ray: No videos, I promise you, there are no videos of that.

Andreas Stein: Come on!

Jayne Ray: Yeah, well, yeah.

Jayne Ray: But I…

Andreas Stein: But you're, I mean… It takes… a certain…

Andreas Stein: strength inside of yourself, you know, you hear these messages, like, come on, you're 75 years old, just drink your coffee, sit there, and just do nothing. And say, no, this is not…

Andreas Stein: who I am. I want to… enjoy. I want to dance, I want to party. I mean, not in a weird, strange way, but I, you know, I… I want to continue to be the person I've always been. Why should I now change? Simply because…

Andreas Stein: I'm no longer 55, but 75 years old. Yeah, and if your body forces you to slow down because of health issues, that's a different story.

Andreas Stein: But, I mean, we would not tell a 55-year, well, you earn 40, you know, you should not be doing this, there's much more…

Andreas Stein: openness there, you know, yeah, just do whatever you want to do. And somehow, once we cross the 65, 70-year-old, there's, yeah, alright, now, not just, okay, just sit there and be quiet and shut up. I said, you know, and I admire you. I said, you know what?

Andreas Stein: I don't care what people say, I'll be dancing, you know, in the club, and I will be doing what I want to do, and, you know, and obviously that's the unique Jane. Not everyone would go into a disco club, you know, into this. I've never been a… I love the disco era music, I've never been in an actual disco, you know, so I thought, alright, fine. For somebody else, it means something else, but, you know, there's… I said, you know what?

Andreas Stein: I don't care what… what you think I should or shouldn't be doing, I don't care if you say I shouldn't be wearing these shoes, you shouldn't wear those colors, shouldn't look like this, it's… you know, I… I've…

Andreas Stein: lived my life on my own terms up until now, and it's not gonna change now that I'm 70 years old, you know, and…

Andreas Stein: I… it's not just that I admire it, I mean, it's… I think that becomes even more…

Andreas Stein: important, you know, the older you get, you know, to just… this is who I am.

Jayne Ray: Well, and I think that's… that's part of the, you know, I'm a grumpy old fart at a certain.

Andreas Stein: Yeah.

Jayne Ray: also, right, is that I am who I am, and I'm not gonna change, and…

Jayne Ray: And again, I think that people…

Jayne Ray: fall into a couple of different buckets when it comes to stereotypes. I think it's not just me, right? I mean, I live in a community where if they have an event, there are lots and lots and lots of people up and dancing. Not disco, though.

Andreas Stein: You should… come on, Jane. I give you a dare. I give you a little dare right now. Just stand up and show us how you dance and vocab.

Jayne Ray: Oh, heck no, heck to…

Andreas Stein: Come on!

Jayne Ray: But, but I am.

Andreas Stein: Let's go.

Jayne Ray: you know, I am still pretty.

Andreas Stein: Alright!

Jayne Ray: If you ask my husband that, he would be dancing in the background, so…

Andreas Stein: Alright!

Andreas Stein: Get him over it, I would've been like…

Jayne Ray: Really? Hey, come on over and show us your moves.

Andreas Stein: But…

Jayne Ray: I… so I do think there are a couple of different buckets. I think there are people that, you know, like Popeye, I am who I am, and that's not going to change. I think part of it is relevance once you stop working.

Jayne Ray: And, you know, last episode we talked about, well, you know, mattering, and in previous episodes we talked about, well, the fear of first you retire and then you die. I think that it's a question of relevance, and if you don't think you're still relevant.

Jayne Ray: Then you get old real quick.

Jayne Ray: Because if you're not relevant, you get old. Because you must be old. We're right, we're in the fourth quarter of life, and… Right. You know, and I always say to everybody, well, you win the game in the fourth quarter. So, and we know the game is gonna end. We know the game's gonna end, right? At some point, it's gonna end. You may go into overtime, but the game's gonna end.

Jayne Ray: But you win in the fourth quarter, and so I think there's a question of…

Jayne Ray: of relevance. Do you still feel relevant? Do you still…

Jayne Ray: pride yourself on the music that you like? Do you still pride yourself on… and it isn't just physical activity, I mean, you know, one of the reasons chair yoga came up is because a lot of people of an age, or maybe not even of an age, really don't have the physical fitness to do other things, but maybe you hate the gym. I hate the gym.

Jayne Ray: So that's not really the litmus test here. The litmus test is not what you're doing.

Jayne Ray: The litmus test is how you're thinking, and how you believe other people are thinking about you. That, to me, is the litmus test.

Andreas Stein: But I think, like, any stereotype at any age, whether it's a 75-year-old stereotype, you should only wear dark colors, gray hair, rocking chair, cup of coffee, and that's it, or whatever the stereotypes are at different states, I mean, the stereotype's kind of trying to…

Andreas Stein: You know,

Andreas Stein: tell everyone, it's kind of, this is how you're supposed to live your life at this age, everyone's the same.

Andreas Stein: And I think part of what I hear is saying, no, I'm, you know, I'm a unique individual. I'm Jane and no one else, you know, so I do what Jane wants to do, you know, and if I want to look… not that you did look foolish, but if I would like to look foolish dancing on the dance floor to disco music at age 70, I'm sure you didn't look foolish. You know, then that's what I would do, and if you tell me I look foolish, that's fine.

Andreas Stein: fine with me, I don't care at all. But part of it is, you know what, I'm still this unique individual that I've always been, and I don't allow any stereotype, any voices from anywhere to tell me I have to become a different person because I've crossed this artificial age line from 65 to 66, and now suddenly I move from working all day long to rocking chair with a cup of coffee. No, I do what I

Andreas Stein: want to do. I am my own unique person, and I'll do this. And I really admire this about, you know, you, that you just, you know what, I'll be dancing, you know, I'll still be flower power at my age, you know, and I will still be doing all of that stuff, you know, and if you… somebody doesn't like it, then, well, that's really not my problem, it's their problem, you know?

Andreas Stein: I refuse to become the person everyone else expects me to become, because I'm now of a certain age.

Jayne Ray: But, you know, I want to make sure that we don't come away from this

Jayne Ray: making people that do want to rest and relax during their retirement. I think, you know, the one thing to be very aware of is that

Jayne Ray: Retirement is your choice.

Jayne Ray: Right? It's your choice. Whatever your choice is, is the right choice for you. Now, if you're being forced into, you know, boredom or loneliness, then it's also your choice to find your way out of that and to find outlets for it. But if it's your choice…

Jayne Ray: To have a quiet retirement.

Jayne Ray: then far be it from us to say that, you know, that that's not okay. It's perfectly okay.

Jayne Ray: The difference is, are you being stereotyped?

Jayne Ray: into your choices, or are you making your choices? And I think there's a really distinct difference there, because one of the beauties of retirement is that you do have the freedom

Jayne Ray: On any given day, To make a choice.

Jayne Ray: I can make a choice that I want to stay in bed today till 10 o'clock.

Jayne Ray: Meh?

Jayne Ray: I could make a choice that I want to stay in my pajamas all day. I could make a choice that I want to go out and go shopping, or meet friends, or be… take a walk by myself. I can make those choices, because I'm not tethered to the routine of my job.

Jayne Ray: So, are you making the choice, or is the choice being made for you because of cultural, or family, or societal norms? And I think if you come away from this episode with anything.

Jayne Ray: That's it, right? Your retirement is your retirement.

Jayne Ray: And don't allow yourself to be cast into some role.

Andreas Stein: Yep.

Jayne Ray: That is not comfortable for you, right? For me, I'm not fighting it, but I am who I am, right? I've always, you know, had a project, this podcast is my passion project, so I am who I am. I'm an opinionated…

Andreas Stein: You are opinionated?

Jayne Ray: Forum dancing, trying.

Andreas Stein: Alright.

Jayne Ray: to play tennis, retiree, and I'm very.

Andreas Stein: All right, Jade, now it's time. Put the flowers in your hair, get up and dance.

Jayne Ray: I could still sing, I would sing the, you know, if you go to San Francisco, but I'm like.

Andreas Stein: Yeah, there we go.

Jayne Ray: Yeah, there we go.

Andreas Stein: Wanna give it a try?

Jayne Ray: No.

Jayne Ray: But, you know, again, you know, if you look at kind of the pattern of the last few episodes, and I really do hope that you will go back and listen to Season 1, and hopefully get something from that, and Season 2, we're really trying to dive deeper into these feelings.

Jayne Ray: Because it's very easy to let other people tell you how you should feel, or it's very easy for you to just

Jayne Ray: make sure your feelings don't matter. And they do, and they do. So join our Facebook group, listen to the podcast. If there's something that you want us to talk about, then we're really happy to…

Andreas Stein: Yes.

Jayne Ray: up on a future episode.

Jayne Ray: All right.

Andreas Stein: Maybe not for this time, but for the next episode, Jane. Can we see a dance?

Jayne Ray: Okay, I'll put on the platform shoes, you won't see it, but sean in.

Andreas Stein: Yeah, there we go.

Jayne Ray: Okay, there you go. Sorry, I did most of the talking this time, but I guess I'm the victim of the stereotype.

Andreas Stein: Well, you are that unique, brightly shining, multicolored butterfly through the air. We just love listening to you, Jane.

Jayne Ray: All right, well anyhow, this is Joyous Journeys Over 60, talking about stereotypes. Have a great rest of your week.