Shane Syron (00:00.459)
Duh.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (00:02.19)
Welcome back to the Money Mechanics podcast, I'm Sarah Poynton and thank you for tuning in. So today we are joined by Shane Siren from Beaumont Recoveries.

month recoveries sorry are a debt recovery company and I've worked with Shane for probably about 18 months now something like that and Shane actually is a debt recovery agent who works for our business when people don't pay their invoices like they should Shane is the man that contacts them and helps figure out how to actually get their invoices paid in a way that works for them and works for us so that everybody is on the same page

The reason I've invited a debt recovery agent onto this podcast and I know a load of people will be sitting and thinking immediately my god I don't want to hear from this person

because nobody likes a debt recovery agent right it's like the traffic wardens of the world like no there's certain groups of people where we kind of switch off from but i think this conversation is really really important because i know how many people listening to this podcast have been in debt are in debt are struggling with their debt and i remember back in 2015 when i was in 60 000 pounds worth of debt just how easy it was for me to get there

Shane Syron (00:49.453)
you

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (01:12.814)
and just how hard it was for me to get out of it. And so this episode really is to get into the nitty gritty of how that happens. For you guys that are struggling with it or have it, for you to realize that it's not as uncommon as you think, but we're also gonna talk a little bit about it's just some of the best practices and best ways that you can stay in control of it and what could happen from there. So Shane, do you wanna just briefly introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, and then we'll get into this.

Shane Syron (01:42.956)
Yeah, of course. So my name is Shane. So I work for a company called Beaumont Recoveries. I am a senior debt collection team leader. So I run a team of six collectors. I've been in the business now for just over three years. And obviously, we're a debt recovery agency that recovers debts from both business to business and also business to consumers or business to person. And the type of debts we can deal with are valued from

from a hundred pound debts right up to more recently a 500 to a million pound debts. The business obviously, I've been a part of the business now for three years and the business itself has been running for the last 14 years. Our Managing Director, started it up from a conversation with a friend who's a solicitor, essentially got the business on the roll. He essentially started the business from an iPad and just built it from there and I've seen significant increases in our, you know,

collections as well as the team as well in the last three years. I mean, when I first started here, there was only two collectors. We're now up to six, seven, including myself. We've got a full sales team here as well. And then hopefully we'll be branching out a little bit further afield later down the line as well to help clients as well. yeah, it's growing really well. It sounds awful to say, but it is. Unfortunately, a lot of people are in debt and a lot of businesses are.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (02:48.29)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (02:58.158)
Do you think that based on obviously the market as it is at the minute, the government as it is at the minute, different things like that, have you seen as a business a significant increase in people struggling with debt? Because we've always had a big debt problem like the UK, know, the average day in the UK household is massive. Have you seen it shift in the last like two years in terms of people struggling?

Shane Syron (03:26.699)
Absolutely. It's not just individuals as well, it's people that are running businesses. The money that people are chasing is essentially to pay their own bills. It's not a case of these small businesses especially. They're just there to pay their own wages and trade in house businesses, but even individuals are chasing individuals. So people that might not have paid rent. But the circumstances are that unfortunately the climate we live in, people are going to struggle and that's it.

especially individuals are not able to the rent. They might not be able to pay the rent, but before you know it, it starts backing up and backing up. And then before you know it, your 800 pound rent turns into 10,000 pounds, you know, because of the fact that it's backed up that much. it becomes a real concern for not only them, but also the landlord maybe, or the person at the home who owns it. So it's really, really, really increased. you see it more so after Christmas, certainly, and going into a new period because of the Christmas period. Everybody still wants to enjoy Christmas. And in January and February for us.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (04:00.375)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (04:06.285)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (04:10.125)
Mmm.

Shane Syron (04:23.666)
in the last two years has been significant, the amount of debts. I I believe that just at the moment in this one month alone, we've taken on half a million pounds worth of debts and we're only in February of this year, which is a lot. It is a lot.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (04:33.55)
which is when you look at one side which is the you know the customer side the person that owes the money it's terrifying that there's that much debt that one debt recovery agency has taken on in one month because actually there's a lot of you which means there's a lot more people who are also struggling but also from a business perspective obviously as a business owner myself you know

like you said when people don't pay their invoices it directly impacts the cash flow for us to be able to pay our staff and pay our suppliers and pay all the things and I think

I remember what it's like to be in debt. I'm not in debt now but I remember how hard that was and I also know how hard it is to manage the cash flow in a business when people don't pay as you're expecting because you actually haven't got the money coming in. it's like this real... I feel very conflicted about this conversation because I think like sometimes I think actually if people haven't got it you can't really take it but then I also think actually if they owe it they really should have paid it or not committed to it and so I have this I have quite a turmoil in my mind about this topic.

Shane Syron (05:18.066)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (05:37.602)
the debt staff, you worked in hospitality and pubs for years before you moved into this, so how did how did that happen? the transition of that?

Shane Syron (05:44.68)
Add it.

Weirdly enough, there's a little bit of a story behind it. So when I turned 17, my mum at the time, she worked in a cricket club and I wanted some hours just to earn some pocket money and stuff. And I started off in that sector then and it just grew from there really. I ended up where I was working in three pubs a day to the point then when I became a manager of a pub and helped run a pub as well and stewardship of a cricket club for some time. And I did that for 10 years and I really enjoyed it until I met my wife now.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (05:58.541)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (06:17.509)
obviously I our three children where it just became, you know, one of them things that it's just not, it's not really good for a family for me to be working silly hours. And essentially they were coming home from school and I was starting work and I didn't have an evening with them. So it was at that point I realized I probably needed to change my role. initially I actually went into working in schools and I became a caretaker for two years, which was brilliant. But the money just wasn't there. And then I got an opportunity with a friend working for Pete here at Beaumont recoveries and

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (06:24.78)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (06:40.214)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (06:47.529)
it kind of just took off from there and, you know, like I say, the business grew significantly, really quickly. And obviously that is just because of the climate that we are in that he was able to get more pick collectors in because of the essential that they were getting more debts in. And then I've just grown and grown and grown from there really. I mean, I just started off as a standard collector, but the experience and the knowledge that I've got now has excelled me to the point where now I'm managing a team of six and I really love the job, not only from a

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (07:00.056)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (07:10.264)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (07:16.359)
client perspective, but also from, we call them debtors, so customers, clients. But from their perspective as well, sometimes, you can have some serious deep conversations with people and even they feel a little bit of relief that you've helped them out by obviously being able to talk to you as well. So it's just really good.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (07:20.696)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (07:31.352)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (07:38.67)
So I remember being in debt and I remember like I remember the conversations around that and for me actually getting out of debt was a massive relief. So like what you're saying there the debtors when you're having these conversations whilst obviously if people are struggling it's hard it's a hard conversation to have and I'm guessing that most people straight out of the gate say I haven't got it so you can't have it but

in my experience of debt and again people listening to this it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on this like instagram us or message us on youtube because i'd be really interested in what people say on this but if you work with a company like you and you're able to figure out a plan of getting the debt paid back actually at the end of the process you are debt free and that is a really really great place to be but it's hard work to get there right so those conversations like whilst it probably doesn't feel like you're helping

Shane Syron (08:30.344)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (08:35.368)
I can kind of look at it when I was in debt it didn't feel like you guys were helping me at all it felt like you guys were making it harder for me but I think that really with hindsight looking back it did help because I cleared my debt in the end and actually that now puts me in position where I can move my life forward and things like that so is that would you agree with that?

Shane Syron (08:50.534)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (08:56.86)
Yes, certainly. I'm in a little bit of debt myself, but from the job that I do now, I understand the process, but I also understand the things that you should be doing and the things that you shouldn't be doing. And the key thing is communication. What people seem to forget is that when it comes to a debt recovery company, there's potential that you've already committed to try and recover that money for six to 12 months and it's just been no luck. And then it's a last resort for you to then send it to a debt recovery company. You don't want to do that.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (09:24.877)
Yeah.

Shane Syron (09:25.884)
be half of your client or that person. But you've got to do because then it becomes necessary because they're not working with them. So, you know, even from myself, I'm in credit card debt, I've got credit cards to pay off. But I know that the best thing for me to be able to do now is to communicate with these people and not just be honest and open. And sometimes people find it hard to do that. And I know it's very difficult to do that in some circumstances. But if you don't, you are going to find yourself in a position that

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (09:31.372)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (09:43.672)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (09:54.746)
One, we as debt recovery agents don't want to put you in and also the client potentially doesn't want to put you in them positions. unfortunately, it's a circumstance that's going to happen should you not work with us to communicate with us and just be honest and be honest to yourself as well. And I know that debt's hard and it's going to get harder, if I'm honest, in the coming 12 months with everything potentially going up and people are going to struggle and lot more people are going to fall into that bracket.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (10:01.292)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (10:05.42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (10:17.238)
Mm.

Shane Syron (10:23.036)
and it's probably going to be a lot more work for us as a business. the key thing is trying to avoid, one thing that the main thing to avoid is just not sticking your head in the sand. We discussed it before we even started, but it is a case of sticking your head in the sand and avoiding them conversation.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (10:34.232)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (10:39.32)
So in your experience, like obviously I know the process to, as a business, to appoint a debt recovery company.

in our business and I'm sure this is the case with most businesses, we'll have gone through nine to 12 months usually of trying to work with the client to figure it out, to ask even for tiny bits like we've got clients that still want the service that we provide but haven't got the money to pay the invoices. So we work as closely as we can and I mean I'm, I probably shouldn't say it publicly on a podcast but I'm well known in my team as being somebody who really

try their best to figure out a way of working with a client so that actually we don't have to get to the stage where we appoint you and when it gets to the point where you make your first contact with the debtor let's call them the person that owes the money would you say that the

Shane Syron (11:27.374)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (11:38.678)
the biggest problem that's into that usually in your experience of all the things that you've dealt with, what is the biggest problem? Like what's the biggest mistake that those people are making for it to end up with you in the first place?

Shane Syron (11:52.422)
The biggest mistake people make is by not talking to the creditor essentially. They're not speaking to the creditor. They're not there to cause more problems for you. They're there to help you. Speaking directly to the creditor is one of the best things you can do because one, it's going to avoid any form of debt recovery. It's going to avoid at least you've got a plan set out. If you can explain to your creditor that you're just not in a position this month to be able to make a payment towards your rent, towards your bills, towards...

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (11:55.639)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (12:21.252)
your credit card payments. They will make adjustments to be able to help you get to a point where you can. But by just shutting them out and not doing it at all makes it a lot more difficult for you later down the line. In respect to obviously the instruction that we get, again, it is a case that you might have worked really hard with these people for six to 12 months. And the reason it's coming to us now is because you are you've exhausted all your options as a business and as a personal

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (12:40.43)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (12:46.35)
Mm.

Shane Syron (12:48.486)
As a person yourself that's gone through this and knows what it's like, you've given them all the options and then it comes to somebody like us who then has to be that firm touch and unfortunately they just don't like it. And there is a lot of material out there where for debt recovery you see, you don't see it from our side of it, you don't see the good side of it, you always see the bad, you never see the positive. You know, these programs that are on TV about people banging on doors, there's a huge process before that.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (12:51.63)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (13:10.508)
Mm.

Shane Syron (13:17.539)
like a massive process, might be communication and back and forth and stuff, before it gets to that, you know, yeah. Yes.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (13:17.837)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (13:22.478)
So let's talk about the process a little bit, because I think that's a really interesting thing. And I know what it feels like to get a letter from a debt recovery agent. Honestly, the first one I ever got, I shit my pants. I was like, oh my god, I'm going to end up with a bailiff knocking down my door and they're going to take all my stuff. That is where I went. And I think that's because that's what the media tells us is the end result of being not in control of your money. So that's terrifying.

Shane Syron (13:43.622)
Yep.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (13:49.8)
I can totally understand and do understand I'm sure lots of people listening to this will get and I'm sure you understand this as well when you get that letter actually you're like well I can't cope with this because it's too scary so I'm just not going to do anything about it so what you're saying is that first of all is the biggest mistake is that not only have they not talked to us but

that Deita also then gets the letter and then fails to communicate even at that point, that is where the mistake is coming into play, it's that lack of communication, yeah? So at that point then, what is the actual process, without giving away obviously all of your company's IP and whatever, but what is the process that a Deita would go through, how many stages are there before you end up with a bailiff at your door? What's the reality of that?

Shane Syron (14:20.972)
Yeah. Yes.

Shane Syron (14:30.244)
of

Shane Syron (14:40.591)
The reality is, so upon instruction, so we might receive an instruction from you, Sari. So within your instruction, you'll give us details of the debt, the potential value of that debt. So once we get all the information, we'll confirm it's all there and we'll construct our letter. Our letter is a basic letter. It doesn't inform the debtor of what the debt is in reference to. It just informs them that we've now been instructed and our payment is payable. That letter is then sent out to them electronically. So it's either via email.

got a contact number, we'll send it via text message or WhatsApp. We always try and avoid the postal system only because it can get lost and stuff, but generally it goes out by that. You're then given seven days to respond or make a payment. In some cases, fantastic, these people go, God, I forgot about paying that invoice. I'll pay it now straight away. Fantastic. They're the nice and easy one. The ones that are in between are the ones that don't actually respond back to that letter, but we also then make a call to you normally 24 hours after we send out the letter.

And that call is just more of a, it's an introductory call to let you know that we've sent out our instruction to you. Have you received that letter? And can you confirm when payments be made? Now at this point, clients might not have given us information in regards to formal disputes. Every person has a right to dispute any formal debt. But the way to do that is by communicating. There's no point me calling you and you screaming down the phone at me saying I dispute all this. But I need to understand why you dispute it.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (15:55.688)
Mm-hmm, I'm sure, yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (16:00.29)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (16:06.776)
Because if it is a reasonable dispute, then there is obviously an option there where we can become back and forth between us and the client to kind of get a settlement. Now, in terms of people that don't obviously communicate with us and drag the process on a little bit, our process for a client will generally take about four to six weeks only because we want to exhaust all of our options for you. And then after that, it will be a case of starting legal proceedings.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (16:07.182)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (16:13.795)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (16:31.81)
Legal proceedings, you have to follow something called the pre-action protocol. The pre-action protocol is there to protect both the client and the debtor because what happens is we send a pre-action letter to the debtor. The debtor will receive that letter. It comes formally from a solicitor. The solicitor will outline the whole debt. The debt then, will have, think the consumer gets 30 days and a business gets 21. Well, we call it 21. I think it's like 14 days to respond and make payment. But we say 21 days just for...

benefits of us all. So 14 days, if they don't respond to that letter in that 14 days, our client's in a position to issue the claim to court. Once they issue the claim to court, it then goes in front of a judge essentially and a judge will then decide if the client is right or if the debtor is right. If the debtor doesn't turn up to court, that's where you hear a lot about default judgments because potentially they've not received the documentation or they're just not turned up to court. Our client then will be awarded the CCJ.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (17:25.496)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (17:29.483)
in which that will then after 30 days go against that person's credit file. As a debt recovery agency, that's what we want to aim for for a client. Get that CCJ. And then we have the enforcement options and your enforcement options are your bailiffs, your high court enforcement officers, stuff that you see on TV. But there's all that stuff beforehand that everybody doesn't realise. There's all opportunities for you to be able to discuss. If someone's banging on your door, it's because you've not done any of that stuff prior.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (17:44.696)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (17:56.568)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (17:56.599)
You've not gone to court, you've not discussed it with the solicitor, you've not discussed it with the debt recovery agency and you've certainly not discussed it with the client. So at that end part where you see them banging on that door demanding the car or they're going to take away all the fridges and freezers and stuff. That is all because they've already gone through all that process and it costs the client a lot of money to do that, which is also then very frustrating. And then the additional cost that you've put on your debt can be extortionate.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:06.508)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:14.666)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:23.437)
Mmm.

Shane Syron (18:23.892)
If the client's covered by their own terms of conditions, which we express to clients daily to make sure your terms and conditions are so solid that, you know, you could be expected to pay debt recovery costs, solicitors costs, court costs, enforcement costs, interest, everything then adds up. And before you know it, your thousand pound debt is turned into three, four, five thousand pound and it still goes up daily. And at the end of it, you might pay it.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:41.027)
Hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:46.531)
Yeah.

Shane Syron (18:50.263)
but you've still got a CCJ on your file for six years, which means that you're not going to get your nice new car or your nice new mom.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (18:54.178)
So.

let's talk about ccj's because i think there's often a a common misconception about these about how some people think they don't matter and some people think they're they're you know they're like the end of the world a ccj is very different to like a bankruptcy and that level of financial turmoil so what is accounting court judgment

Shane Syron (19:15.916)
So a bankruptcy is an enforcement of a CCJ. So we've got to get that. So a bankruptcy is something you can do off the back. Yeah. So from a CCJ, if I get a CCJ against a client, let's say that value of that is 5,000 pounds. It all depends on the value. So what we've got to analyze is, is it worth the client's debt to be able to put high court enforcement in place? And some of the enforcements that we have available to us,

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (19:20.11)
yeah so that's what i was gonna say let tell us what those things are

Shane Syron (19:45.269)
They go from very low to very serious. So your most serious one would be a bankruptcy or a winding up proceedings if it's against a business. So essentially you're bankrupting somebody or you're shutting the business down, point blank. Statutory demands are also quite good. A statutory demand is a letter that will be sent to them and give them 28 days of warning to make a payment on this balance or we will shut you down or we will bankrupt you. Other ones are high court enforcement.

So high court enforcement are only instructed on debts over the value of £600. If your debt is under £600, that would go to something called bailiff. So a bailiff would attend your property or your business. But if is over £600, it can go to a high court enforcement officer. Now, there's not many high court enforcement officers in this country. It's not a job that many people want. So they are all scattered around everywhere. Other things are charging orders. So if you're an owner of your property, a new owner or somebody

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (20:16.855)
Okay.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (20:34.882)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (20:41.89)
£10,000 and you've just put that off and put that off and put that off and then you get the CCJ and they put a charging order on your property. They can potentially force the sale of your property from underneath your feet or they could sit on that and it's an investment for them because the interest will go up and in 10 years time when you think, I'm going to retire, I'm going to sell my property, I'm going off to Spain and you think I've paid off my mortgage, you haven't because you've still got Derek to pay that 10 grand back but because of the interest that comes off the sale of your property in 10 years time.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (20:57.464)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (21:07.736)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (21:10.273)
Or like I say, they can literally pull your house from underneath your feet. Other ones are attachment to earnings. So you've got to be in employment for that to work. If you're self-employed, can't unfortunately do that. So that's where the money will just essentially come out of your earnings, either on a monthly basis or if you're earning enough, it'll just take the lot. Third party debt orders. Third party debt order is somewhere I as a client can go into your bank account and take that money so I can apply for an order to remove that amount of money from your bank.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (21:20.664)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (21:40.214)
The only thing is for a client's perspective is that money's got to be in that account because if the bank when they allow you in, so essentially they're opening the door for you to look in, if you look in and there's nothing in there, you imagine if you're doing that in the middle of the month when everybody gets paid at the end of the month, that's probably why. If you looked on the 30th and looked in, he's just being paid, I'll take that out, thank you very much. What you don't realize is that could have a significant impact on that debtor because they might have bills that they're not going to follow on and be paid. And then the other one.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (21:44.568)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (22:03.256)
Mmm.

Shane Syron (22:08.265)
And it can be quite a bad one. It's an order to attend court with. And we've done that on several occasions where, and it's a relatively cheap option for the client to do, but it's an order for them to attend court. And if they don't attend court, there would be a warrant out for their arrest. And that can be quite significant, especially if you're some parent or something that just hasn't seen that order. And then all of a sudden you get pulled over on your way home from school.

with the kids and all of sudden the police are buying you back of a car over a CCJ. It can happen and it will happen and then you'll put you in front of a court the next work you do.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (22:41.88)
Is there different types of CCJs that will then like, let's say it was rent, would that be a different outcome than if it was like an invoice for a parking ticket? So like a warrant for your arrest seems extreme. I didn't know that, right? So that for me, I'm like, fucking hell, that's really extreme for unpaid money. Is that like VAT level, like unpaid debt, or can they be, can you be arrested for not paying a parking ticket? Like what, why would you get to that level of...

Shane Syron (23:09.696)
Essentially, can be a ref. As once you've got the CCJ, any enforcement is applicable for the client to take. So if the client wants to be that kind of person, the client can essentially choose which enforcement. We tend to discuss with the client what potentially are the best options. So we don't tend to go down the order to attend court very often, but we have had to do in some cases because that person doesn't respond or we can't seem to locate.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (23:15.768)
So the client can choose. Wow.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (23:24.941)
Yeah.

Shane Syron (23:36.733)
we can do traces on the debtors and find where they are and we might call this person and they'll go, it's not me. Right, OK, that's fine. But we'll just have an order for you to attend court in which if you don't attend court, then there'll be a warrant out for your arrest. So them circumstances. But yeah, it can happen, which is a bit more severe, obviously, but it can happen. Yeah. But I'll be honest, the ones that we generally more lean to are, yeah, the ones that we more lean to are high court enforcement officers only because

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (23:52.078)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (23:56.204)
Wow, I had no idea that that was a thing.

Shane Syron (24:05.236)
You might think they look really bad, but they are actually really reasonable as well. And they do like to talk to you. They're not there to be like brunk people banging on your door. They're there to just execute an order that's come from a high court. And that's essentially what it is. not, know, they will help you as best they can, but at the end of the day, they are there to execute an order from a judge and from a high court, which when you think about it in hindsight, sounds very serious because it is a document from the high court.

to say that you owe this money and if you do not pay this money we are entitled to remove assets from your home.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (24:41.57)
which is I think I didn't know that I could have been arrested along the way but my greatest fear was always someone's gonna come and take the stuff that I've got and come and take the things. Nowadays I'm not sure that I would worry about that so much because things to me aren't quite as important as they were then but I think that that's probably the privilege of not having debt actually is I kind of understand that.

Shane Syron (24:46.496)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (24:58.709)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (25:03.36)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (25:03.916)
where I'm sitting now and so maybe I'm not as worried about it because I don't worry about it but I remember then that was always my greatest fear like shit what if someone knocks on the door I wouldn't know what to say I wouldn't know what to do they're gonna come in they're gonna take my things but what I'm what I basically between the lines of all of this stuff at the end of a very long process we have a lot of different opportunities to step in and fix it

Shane Syron (25:06.432)
you

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (25:27.188)
or step in and start to fix it even is quite scary outcomes bankruptcy you know arrested like all these things but what i'm actually hearing in between the lines is if you just have a conversation along the way at all the points and you're willing to work with the person like obviously if you dispute the debt that's probably a slightly different thing like if you you know if i bought a pair of trainers that were blue and i never got the pair of trainers that were blue i got a

I don't know, a set of knives, I probably wouldn't pay for the pair of trainers, do you what I I would dispute that and that would be a fair dispute, so that's a different conversation. But if you've had the product or the service, you just can't afford to pay for it now, what I'm hearing really is that as long as you pick up the phone and have a conversation or open the dialogue, there's probably a way to avoid those sorts of outcomes, provided you are willing to be flexible and work with the person, right?

Shane Syron (26:07.679)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (26:24.799)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it is all about the communication. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Not just for not just for yourself as the debtor, but also as the client. The client's got to offer all these costs and they've got to want to get these costs back. You know, and they will put that on you. And like I say, opening that communication can avoid can avoid all them extra costs. And, you know, people will be thinking, well, you know,

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (26:25.42)
Because all of those outcomes are expensive.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (26:38.669)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (26:43.246)
Mm.

Shane Syron (26:53.651)
People have money and stuff. There is people out there, celebrities included, that I know, and we've had instruction upon, that don't pay their bills just as much as anybody else. Don't think that just because you see that person on TV, some of them people on TV are not paying the bills either and not communicating. We've had, I've had an English football player that I've chased, I've had a singer that I've chased, that we as a business has chased, very, very well off.

seeing just over silly things like not paying for a boiler or paying for the works that have been completed in the house. But these are all things where people always think I'm the worst one. You're not going to be the worst one. But what can help you?

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (27:31.564)
That's insane to me that...

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (27:39.118)
I was just that for me if you've got the money and you're still choosing not to pay it it's not a dispute you're just not paying your bills that doesn't make any sense to me like why anyone would do that because it's a layer of stress that no one needs right it's unreasonable yeah absolutely

Shane Syron (27:53.17)
No, it's just been unreasonable. Some people want to use an opportunity. Yeah. The focus for us is to be able to communicate effectively, but also what we want to do is take away the emotion away from clients and also debtors. Sometimes relationships break down with two people that have been at it for so long trying to recover money. So having that

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (28:16.174)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (28:21.534)
that third party, a debt recovery firm, myself, my colleagues, speaking to you and discussing it fairly. And we'll always be factual. can't not tell you what's going to be the outcome should you not discuss it with us, should you not make a payment, should you not be reasonable. It's all about reasonability. Like you said about them trainers then, they might have been blue, but then hasn't the client then made an offer to you to change them trainers, but you've then acted...

unreasonable by saying, well, no, don't, but I've warned them now. Well, so you've had use of that product. So you've actually used them. But yet my clients offered to change them products for you. So there's the argument that we normally get. know, there's so many different scenarios and every case I get on my table is always different to the last case I've shot down. Every case that you send me across, Sarah, is going to be a different case for the other one that I've dealt with and a different circumstance that we've got to deal with. And unfortunately,

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (29:01.666)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (29:09.774)
you

Shane Syron (29:18.501)
I've been in circumstances where I've had a debtor tell me that unfortunately his daughter's passed away. And then when the client is that firm on this debt and issues proceedings and we get to the High Court Enforcement and the High Court Enforcement officer banged on his door and all of sudden the daughter in which he told had passed away was stood there in front of the High Court Enforcement officer was one of them situations where you think that is a serious person that wants to avoid any form of repercussion for not paying the values. That's not.

That serious unreasonableness that he's willing to put a comment out there like that, his daughter passed away, but yet we later find out that she's entering the door to the High Court Enforcement Officer. These are the extremes that people will go to to avoid making themselves feel or look bad because they owe money out. I owe money out and I'm a debt recovery agent and I chase people for money, but I know that I need to talk to them people and I need to manage it that way.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (29:54.424)
That's wild to me.

my God.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (30:05.038)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (30:14.55)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (30:15.898)
because of the experience I've got on a daily basis speaking to other people and stuff. So, yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (30:20.62)
Yeah. So communication is really the number one thing that again, people listening to this, I know there's a lot of people listening to this who will who are struggling with debt. It's why they listen to this podcast because they're trying to sort their money out. They're trying to their finances out. They're trying to invest for the future. They're trying to improve their financial position in some way, shape or form. And

I know a lot of people that follow me follow me because I was in debt and they resonate with the fact that that's where they are now and they're trying to move forwards from that so other than having the conversation as early as possible is there any other like best practice that you would say that someone in debt should or shouldn't do to avoid ending up dealing with people like you

Shane Syron (31:13.404)
Settlement is always a good one, from both sides really. A discussion on settlement. So if it's an invoice as such, we do find that we always try and reach a settlement because if you've got a firm and reasonable dispute, but obviously you're just crossing necks all the time or you're arguing all the time, then a possible settlement could be the best option for both parties. And that settlement can be a lump sum settlement.

Obviously, if people are financially struggling a little bit more, it doesn't have to be a lump sum. It could be a settlement based on a three month payment. But what that does is it takes away when it stops all these arguments back and forth and discussions and it sets a clear, clear, precise structure on what's going to happen. Also, it takes away the extra costs for the potential of the client. And it also takes away the extra cost that would be added on for the debtor as well. So it's always a good opportunity. And sometimes clients can get

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (31:58.67)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (32:10.748)
Little bit frustrated by that, but what we try and explain to clients is 80 % of something is better than 100 % of nothing. So you've got to take a 20 % cut on that particular bill to be able to be paid. Why not? Because what it does is it gets rid of it and it shuts it off. But then what you'll do is you'll learn from that mistake moving forward. But same for debtors and stuff. Sometimes it is just reasonable to offer a settlement and to avoid getting into

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (32:25.102)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (32:30.188)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shane Syron (32:39.45)
discussions with the debt recovery company where then the additional costs are added on top. And again, we'll always be reasonable with you, we'll always be firing facts to you. But we do understand your position as well, you know, you're not the only one we call a lot of people on a daily basis. And then if you do get into it, and you do get that letter from us, it's really important that you do contact us and that you do outline your circumstances or your formal dispute. Or it might be that you actually know that you owe the money.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (32:43.811)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (33:04.558)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (33:07.397)
but you're not in a position to pay it all in one. You might want to spread it slightly. That's absolutely fine, but we won't know that unless you speak to us and we will always be polite and we'll always be honest with you. But we do have to be factual on the firm stance that we are following the client's instruction. So as much as I feel for debtors in the position that they might be in, I've still got to follow the instruction of that person behind me. So I'm always trying to say to you, you know,

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (33:15.998)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (33:30.766)
Mm.

Shane Syron (33:35.867)
please keep up the communication. This is key. If you're in a position where you can't make a payment on that date, please let me know because then I can go back to the client and say that she's contacted me or he's contacted me and let me know. And I think that's really, you know, really positive. They're going to look at paying it in the next week or so. Let's just hold off here. Stand firm with both the client as well. Stand firm with them to say, don't issue proceedings because it's going to cost you an arm and a leg to do it.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (33:47.214)
Mm.

Shane Syron (34:05.817)
But also the debtor has been reasonable by communicating with us. But and you're in situations where they just do nothing and no communication at all. And that's my biggest frustration. Really, really frustration. But yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (34:09.518)
Mm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (34:14.894)
I think it's interesting because I probably could have guessed that that would be your number one but I've never really thought about just how important that is and you know I've been in debt and I obviously have clients who are in debt to us and we're chasing money like regularly that line of communication will actually does change everything because me and you would never have spoken if the people that I've sent to you had spoken to me

because actually we would have just figured it out and you know I'm not an aggressive money chaser like I'm not I know there are some people out there like nah fuck it you can go to debt recovery I don't care like everyone's going there for me I'm not that person and actually a basic conversation would fix it and I guess there's lots of entrepreneurs lots of business owners that are the same so let me ask you a question do you think that the introduction of things like

Klarna, Monzo Flex, all of these sorts of things where you can like buy now but pay later on so many different things that's not just like credit card debt like it was back 10 years ago for me but like this kind of trend we're seeing of kind of splitting payments on everything do you think that's impacting do you think it's the behaviors around how people are paying for things that's impacting the increase in debt or do you think it's something else?

Shane Syron (35:42.661)
Yeah, I mean, when I grew up, if you wanted something, you had to save it and then pay for it. And now in this day and age, you can just literally clear pay it. You can clarana it. You know, I want, you know, I want a new TV. You might not need a new TV, but you want a new TV. But I don't have 500 pounds to go out and buy a new TV. And I don't want that small one. I want that really big one. But I can clarana it at 30, 40 pound a month. I'll do that. But you don't know what your situation is going to be like in two months.

time, you when you come to making that 40 pound payment for that TV, but all of a sudden your car engine just blown up and you've got that payment to make. But unfortunately you can't clarion of that. So then you've got to pay for that from somewhere. But I've always grown up on the basis that if it's something I need, I will get it. But if it's something I want, I will either save for it or I just won't have it. And unfortunately for me, I found at some point in my life that I wanted a lot more things than I needed a lot more things, which obviously put me into a position of debt as well.

But I think that's the mentality that people have now. It's not a want anymore, it's a need. And social media certainly doesn't help with stuff like that. You know, might see a friend on Facebook that's just bought a nice brand new 60-inch TV and they've put all these pictures on and you think, she's coming out of my house next week and my TV's crap, I need to get a new TV. you know, I'm going out with girls this weekend, I want a brand new outfit to go out with. I'm married, I know exactly the feeling that's going on with that. My wife would love to go out and buy a new outfit to go out every weekend.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (36:42.435)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (36:49.783)
Yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (37:00.535)
New one.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (37:07.182)
You

Shane Syron (37:11.353)
But we can't do that. you know what I mean? So there's times where you've just got to consider them too. The thing I always think, just consider the want and the need. If it's a need, absolutely consider it. But look at your finances. If it's a want, just double check and make sure that you're not going to put yourself into a financial situation because of that one want and that one clear pay payment. Make sure it is affordable and well and don't be throwing.

everything in your basket to go, oh, it's all right. I'll just clarammer it for the next three months. You need to just really consider that want and that need and I think it's really important. And that's how you'll avoid it from my point of view. And that's how I've essentially avoided getting into more debt by recognizing what is a want and what is a need. But yeah, certainly, certainly one of them things. But I do think social media is a big thing or stuff like this now. TikTok same.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (37:50.562)
Mm.

Shane Syron (38:05.081)
they're always firing stuff in front of your face everywhere now. it is one of them things that unfortunately it's unavoidable, but it's been able to manage them urges, I think, more than anything.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (38:10.446)
Hmm.

It's so easy to buy things right? It's so easy to just go TikTok video, click, click, click, bought. And it's everything so simple. There's like no resistance now to it. Like, you know, 20 years ago, if I wanted a pair of trainers, I'd to get up, go to the city center, find the shop, try them on, do it. Now I can click a button and they're here in the morning. And if they don't fit me, I can send them back and have another pair the next day. And there's no resistance to purchasing stuff anymore at all, like none.

Shane Syron (38:24.045)
Mm-hmm.

Shane Syron (38:42.114)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (38:43.242)
And I guess that must also be having an impact on... Now I'm not saying that everybody that's in debt or everybody that's struggling with debt, everybody that's hearing from debt recovery agents are being impulsive purchasers and frivolous with their money and they're just pissing up the wall. For some people it hasn't been that that's created the problem. For some people it is, for some people it isn't.

Shane Syron (39:00.694)
No.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (39:04.398)
I was curious to know whether or not you think the trend in terms of like the increase in debt and the way that people are behaving around money with TikTok shot, Klarna, Clearplay, this sort of stuff is having a wider impact on your industry as a whole and I guess it must be.

Shane Syron (39:26.806)
Yeah, mean, absolutely. mean, people are paying. Amazon's a big one for us. There's a of Amazon purchases. So what people don't realize is Amazon is a massive thing. And you might think you just bought something from Amazon, but you're not. You're actually buying it from the small business that just advertises them products on Amazon. And people forget that little person that's done that. And we work with a client who puts his products on Amazon and then clients receive his...

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (39:44.43)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (39:56.524)
stuff, but then they might not like it and they return it back. But the process behind it takes that long, but he thinks he's going to get a payment on it and then there's something wrong. But then same with Clarana and stuff like that or credit cards as well. The amount of people that do a reverse charge on a credit card. So we've had so many businesses that will pay on a credit card and then pay for a brand new boiler at £3,000 and then reverse charge it a month later because they can and they will.

And it's so easily done that they'll do it. And then we'll have to chase them for six months trying to recover that money. Clarana and stuff. The worrying thing for me with the Clarana and ClearPay is it's now branching out into everything. And when I say everything, I mean everything. You can do a weekly shop through Clarana and ClearPay. I can get a hundred pound voucher off of ClearPay for a weekly shop and spread that cost. But it is a need for some families and it is a need for some families that are

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (40:37.838)
Hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (40:42.446)
Mmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (40:46.54)
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (40:53.059)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (40:54.135)
unfortunately down at the bottom where they need to spread the cost for a bigger shop that week because they can't do it any other way. But, you know, putting it out there for everybody is, think it's just, I think it's going to go up, it's going to blow up. And I think it's going to become a very, very, you know, we won't be dealing with payments outright anymore for products. It will be a case if it's spread over monthly periods. And I think, I think from years ago, I think the only people I remember ever doing stuff like that is like your holidays.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (41:07.79)
Hmm.

Shane Syron (41:20.531)
and like there is. Look, now it's literally on everything. Everything and anything.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (41:22.669)
Hmm.

So I was in JD Sports the other day and I buying a rucksack to go hiking with and when I got to the till they said to me, do you want to pay for this now or do you want to put it on Klarna? And I was like, no, it's like a 30 pound bag. don't want to put it on Klarna. It was clear pay, it was one of these ones. I don't know what it was. I want to speak out of turn that it was one and it wasn't, but it was one of these and they were like, do you want to split the payment? I was like, no, because...

that split payment of three lots of 10 pounds, if you do that on a rucksack and then you also do that on a pair of trainers and you also do that on...

Shane Syron (42:00.513)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (42:06.486)
a new outfit for a wedding and you also do that on this that ten pound for three months becomes like a hundred pound a month for three months and then it's five hundred pound a month for three months and actually I wrote about this in the book and I think at the moment this wasn't the case when I was in debt yes because actually then your monthly outgoings are more based on splitting the payments of the things you've been buying than what you're earning and actually that just isn't sustainable

Shane Syron (42:10.113)
Just starts to build up.

Shane Syron (42:20.235)
And then you get to a point where you can't afford to pay that because you've done all that.

Shane Syron (42:38.699)
Is it sustainable? No, certainly not. Certainly not.

Sarah Poynton-Ryan (42:44.665)
So Shane, I could talk to you about this for ages. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I think this topic is an interesting one. This is a very different episode to what we normally...

Shane Syron (42:48.119)
It's coming up to breaking it.

Shane Syron (42:54.923)
Absolutely.

Here we go.

Shane Syron (43:01.619)
she's gone. Is it just me now?

Shane Syron (43:11.115)
I assume I'm still recording and if I am, fantastic. But thanks for having me, Sarah. Hopefully I'll speak again soon.