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Hi, I'm Zawn Villines and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.

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I am here today with my dear friend Desiree Stephens.

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Hi, Desiree.

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Hi, Zawn and everybody listening.

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And this is part of our joint bonus series.

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What are we calling it?

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Lessons in Liberatory Community.

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It's a series about community.

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It is a series about community.

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I think that that's what you've named it.

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And on mine, it's like the inconvenient truths of community.

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Yes, yes.

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All right.

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So, you know, I think we kind of always how things go.

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We started this with a very specific outline of what we were going to cover.

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And, you know, you have experiences and things jump in and you think about other things.

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So we've sort of disorganizedly decided that we're going to talk about rupture,

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repair and conflict in the community today.

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Is that your understanding as well?

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That is, and I love that because I have my whole little repair model ready.

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So when you said that, I was like, look at this alignment.

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I love us.

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Yeah.

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So I think,

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you know,

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we often talk about the pillars of white supremacy and perfectionism as a pillar of

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white supremacy.

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And I think that that is something to center in this discussion because

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The issue that I see in community and that I particularly see in leftist

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communities and I think that we're all seeing in leftist communities is not just

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that we're not good at repair or we don't know how to have conflict.

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It's the idea that we can't have conflict.

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It's that we have to agree with each other about everything and that the moment

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someone disagrees with you they're a monster and they're no longer in community

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with you.

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Yes.

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We kind of touched on that last time too.

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So I love that we're coming back to it organically.

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I think it might be helpful for us to talk about what community even means.

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I saw a post on one of our mutual friends post today about how community is not friendship.

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Community is something broader than that.

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And it's about the basics of what we owe each other.

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And so when we're talking about community...

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We're not necessarily talking about the people that you like the most or the people

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that you're closest to.

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We're talking about the people that you have for some reason or another chosen to

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build some kind of solidarity with.

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Maybe it's the parents at your kid's school.

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Maybe it's your local union.

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Maybe it's the people you work with.

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And we have to have some ability to work across difference.

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We collectively are just terrible at this,

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and I feel like culturally we're getting even more terrible at it.

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I would agree.

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I would agree because I don't think that community has been defined outside of

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those silos,

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right,

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that whiteness creates.

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Like,

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these are the things,

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and like you said,

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we all have to get along,

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we all have to agree,

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we all have to be...

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It's cultish.

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It starts...

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Recreating that same cult mentality.

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And if you go against that, you get isolated, right?

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You get excommunicated.

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You're not allowed in this space anymore.

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There's no room for conflict.

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There's no room for disagreement.

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And without

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There's no community without decolonization work.

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That's kind of what I'm leaning into.

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Because it is a colonial idea to silo people off, right?

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Into your religious groups, into your gender groups, into your socioeconomic groups.

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Those are all colonial ideas.

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So in order to get back to community,

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that decolonization part has to be in there where none of those things matter and

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we move from agreement to alignment.

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Yeah.

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And I think

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So I've been writing a little bit more lately about how there's this idea that I

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see permeating so many groups that's so incredibly destructive.

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And I know that both you and I have experienced it with readers and listeners who

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turn on us because they get angry with us.

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And it's this idea that

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A person can deserve abuse in the right circumstances and that a person can deserve

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abuse because they disagree with you.

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And I maintain that the thing that makes someone an abuser is the notion that there

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are certain behaviors that warrant abuse.

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And I think that the foundation of all of our communities,

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whether we're talking about,

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you know,

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you and me and our friendship group,

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or we're talking about our readers or the schools that our kids go to,

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Any sort of community that we're part of,

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I think the foundation has to be there are certain things we owe each other no

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matter what,

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even if we don't like each other,

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even if we think that person's a shitty person,

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even if we hate that person,

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there are certain things that we never do to one another.

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What do you think about that?

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I do agree.

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I actually had an exchange happen on my Facebook,

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because that's where I kind of do all my community building.

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And I actually shared about this friend in our last episode.

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A friend of mine came in.

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Now, he and I are having a conversation where I posted something and he comes on there.

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He is an absolute hardcore Trumper.

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Let's just lead with that, right?

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Hardcore.

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Not just like, oh, I'm a Republican.

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He is a MAGA.

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He is proud to be.

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No backing off of it.

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And that's fine.

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But one of my people came in and was immediately...

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Violent, at least in my, right?

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As violent as you could be on social media.

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Name calling, this, that.

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And I'm like, absolutely not.

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Nope.

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That is not something that I will abide by in my space, right?

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Like, no.

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One, what is that going to get us, right?

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I come from a place where, like, those are fighting words, right?

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You cannot talk to people a certain type of way,

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no matter who you think you are,

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who you think they are.

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Because behind these screens,

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very specifically,

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like since you mentioned,

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like from readers or whatever,

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there's this weird

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Exchange that happens,

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this parasocial relationship where people think that they can tell you everything

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about you based on this one thing.

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And if someone is not violent towards you,

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and I understand the position of people's voting choices,

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et cetera,

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et cetera,

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but then we'd have to be realistic about the years of comfortable racism,

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homophobia,

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transphobia,

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hatred of poverty.

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I mean, we can go into years of policy that people have voted for that they're comfortable for.

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Nobody's been so upset about Biden's racist policies that they overturned his

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presidency or fought back.

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We've gotten comfortable with a certain amount of abuse in general that we consider a baseline.

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So then when someone steps out of that baseline and becomes a little bit more

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abusive or what you feel is like,

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but your choice is now damaging me.

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I still do not abide by violence towards them.

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Does that make sense?

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Yeah, it makes total sense.

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And I think,

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you know,

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as you're saying this,

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I actually felt myself getting a little anxious with you talking about your Trump

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girlfriend.

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And here's why.

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Here's why.

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I think you know why, but I'm going to say why anyway.

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I know.

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And it's because I know that there will be people who listen to this who say, oh,

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Desiree has a Trump friend that means I can't trust her about anything and I can't

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listen to her unsubscribe and also they hate you and absolutely their choice yeah

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well and Zawn's friends with that person so I'm friends with someone who's friends

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with a Trumper so I'm a poser too and now not only am I unworthy of being listened

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to but like I need to be punished and

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I Know There's Someone Who Will Listen To This And They Go Find Some Dark Corner On

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The Internet And Start Trying To Dox Us Over This Kind Of Stuff Because That Is How

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It Works I See It Over And Over Again That You Know Someone Disagrees With One

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Choice I've Made Or One Assertion I've Made And It's Not Just Okay I Disagree With

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Her I Think She's Wrong I Want To Argue With Her It's I Want To Destroy Her And I

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See That Impulse As An Impulse That Has Infected Our Communities And That Is Just

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so destructive.

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It is, but it's part and parcel, like you said, of those characteristics of supremacy culture.

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All of that.

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It's a state of violence constantly.

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And for those who do listen and feel that way,

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I stand on the position that it's lazy activism to throw those people away.

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Because you have Trump family members too.

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And I will only, let me be very clear about it, I only remain in relationship with those

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who I believe when they finally realize it,

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like,

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holy shit,

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this was a poor choice,

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would be willing to do the work of repair.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Do you understand what I'm saying?

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So it's not for everybody.

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It's not like, oh, I don't care how they vote.

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I absolutely do.

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But again, it goes back to that, like, everybody was not where they are.

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Now,

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all of a sudden,

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everybody's so fucking woke and they know all the things and they read all the

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books,

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took the workshops.

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And all of a sudden...

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how dare you but two years ago you were this person five years ago 10 15 two weeks

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so I will absolutely this goes into that community I will keep those people in

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community with me and I've shared that even on my TikTok like what are you doing

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with those who you think

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I mean at the end of the day we only can hope right that they'll wake up because

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you know all of these other good characteristics about them because you know all of

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these other things you align with on them and sometimes they just make really bad

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decisions and people can absolutely miss me with the oh but we saw the signs again

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I could do that with any politician yes any I am black in the United States of

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America Biden has 50 years of racist policies

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He literally, like, Clinton, crime bill.

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I mean,

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I could go through every single president and explain how they have disrupted other

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nations,

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how they have disrupted the Black community,

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et cetera,

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et cetera,

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et cetera.

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So it's going to depend on where you're sitting at.

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So I refuse for white people to lament over my choices of community building and make choices.

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Leave me then.

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Do it.

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Because what my choices are should challenge you.

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Because if me,

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I,

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as a Black woman in the United States of America,

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can make that choice to turn around and say,

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you know what?

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For those I do believe would make better choices when they learn better,

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I'm going to stick with them.

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Now, there are some I absolutely don't talk to.

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Family members don't talk to.

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And won't.

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Because you're not going to move.

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You're not going to budge.

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Ever.

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Ever.

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And that's okay.

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I need to let you go because you are not safe.

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But for those who are willing to listen, and he will listen.

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He's like, oh, that's interesting.

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He also protects me in his space for the crazy maggots that don't have his same way.

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You know, he's like, absolutely not.

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Can't do that.

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So it goes both ways, if that makes sense.

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And I think the thing that's important to highlight here is that

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This is a choice that you're allowed to make.

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You're allowed to make choices about who you bring into your life.

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And I feel that we've gotten into this space where we are so afraid of conflict and

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so controlling of other people that we think we get to make all of their choices

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for them.

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And, you know, let's assume that your decision to be friends with this person is a bad choice.

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Let's just say that for the sake of argument.

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You're making the wrong choice.

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It's uninformed.

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Your assumptions are wrong here.

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The person you're hurting is yourself, not anybody else.

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Right, because now, with that being said, I would never bring him, like, home.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Or like to a function, right?

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Like this is my friend.

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I would not have the expectation that everybody, right?

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Like there's consent in all things.

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I already know that this would be a problematic person.

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So this would be a relationship that I would have on my own.

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Right, right.

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I would not demand anybody else to accept it or participate.

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And you're allowed to do that.

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And other people are allowed to respond the way they want to,

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but there has to be a baseline of,

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okay,

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but I'm not going to dox her over it.

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I'm not going to seek to rob her of her rights over it.

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I'm not going to seek to rob her of her humanity over it.

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And that's not what happens.

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I see over and over and over again,

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and this month for me has been particularly brutal in that regard,

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where women will get mad at me and it's I will expose you and I will send your name

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to the incels and this desire to destroy another person and not just another person

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but potentially endanger their children and their community because you've got some

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kind of disagreement with them and it really doesn't matter whether it's a big

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disagreement or a small disagreement or how much moral weight it has because

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I agree with that so I think from the outside looking in

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If you watch,

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say,

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a feminist space or an anti-racist space,

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especially a white-run anti-racist space,

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any kind of leftist space,

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what you're going to see from the outside looking in is you're going to see what

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looks like a lot of conflict.

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You're going to see people bickering over things that seem like they don't matter.

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You're going to see people getting shunned, people getting blocked, name-calling, all of that.

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But what I think is actually going on there is not that there's a lot of conflict.

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What's going on is that there's a lot of conflict avoidance.

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People are scared of conflict.

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They're afraid of disagreement.

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Disagreement feels unsafe.

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And so rather than work through our disagreements,

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what we instead do is we seek to cut people out of our communities.

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Well,

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she's wrong about this thing,

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so she can't be a part of my community because that feels safer to me than saying,

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I actually think you're wrong about this and here's why.

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Or even just sitting with, hey, I disagree with her about some things and that's okay.

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I think that there's some safety that needs to be had, right?

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And that gets learned in community as well.

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We are trained

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into and socialize into it not being safe, right?

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That begins in childhood.

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You can't have conflict.

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You can't tell your parents no.

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You can't say, I don't like this.

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I don't like my hair.

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So we are trained into not having conflict.

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I talk a lot about fear of open conflict because it starts so early.

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We are socialized so deeply into...

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you have to comply so we don't learn or have we don't often have safe spaces to

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disagree to turn around and say you know what no you know I like I I don't even

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like the statement agree to disagree no we don't have to agree at all we could just

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disagree and that's perfectly fine because the otherwise it's it's

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That's not a safe relationship either, right?

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Like, I need that reframe to happen.

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If you agree on every single thing, there's something not honest in this connection.

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Yeah, yeah, I think that's really true.

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And I think there's also another side of this,

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and this gets into kind of the perfectionism of supremacy culture,

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which is that to have a truly respectful disagreement with another person

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You have to be open to the possibility that you're the one who's wrong I'm on now

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And people are really threatened by the possibility of being wrong

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And I think rightfully so because so often in our little fiefdoms that we make for

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ourselves,

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we punish people for being wrong.

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We don't just let people say,

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you know what,

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I was wrong about that and I've changed my mind now and I'm going to do better

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going forward.

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You have to be perfect at all times.

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You have to understand and know about everything.

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And none of us do.

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None of us do.

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That's not possible.

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China can...

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Keep It In Alignment With Those Pillars Of Supremacy Culture When You're Thinking

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About Paternalism Right And This Is How These Things Show Up In Our Everyday Lives

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When You're Thinking About Paternalism Which Is The Pillar That Says Another Person

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Makes Better Decisions For Another Person Right When You're Talking About

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Patriarchy You Know It's The Father Over The Mother Then To The Child The Husband

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The Wife You Know The Whole Christian Says White

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Heteropatriarchal sort of thing.

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So we are outsourcing constantly our thoughts, right?

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Like somebody else knows better.

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Somebody else knows better.

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And then when you start learning your own things or moving through certain

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problems,

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you become that authority,

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right?

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Like there's a process.

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So it's like all of a sudden now you're the authority and you think you know better

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than other people as well.

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So again,

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what I mean by that,

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the decolonization portion is so important to community because even in the journey

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of healing,

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even in the journey of community building,

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without being intentional about

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Decolonizing,

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really looking at how colonial structures have shaped every single aspect of our

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lives,

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not just anti-racism,

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not just anti-homophobia,

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anti-semitism,

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the way we walk,

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talk,

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think,

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act,

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dress.

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Every single aspect of our lives have been wrapped up in colonial norms.

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So that is transference of the paternalism to you.

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Like, look at me.

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I read this book.

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I do these things.

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I know these things and I know better than you because now I've learned.

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So instead of giving you the space to have conflict,

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the space to question,

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I'm going to tell you what's best.

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And it may have been best for you.

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And I love that for you.

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That does not mean that it's best for the next person on their journey because that

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is what it is.

(00:19:24):
It is not a one-size business.

(00:19:26):
fits all quick fix checklist to liberation.

(00:19:31):
It is an unraveling,

(00:19:35):
an excavation of your own self,

(00:19:37):
your own experiences that it has to begin within and it can only be right for you.

(00:19:44):
So you could offer that, right?

(00:19:45):
Like, hey, Zawn, what was good for me when I was going through this was X, Y, and Z.

(00:19:51):
That may resonate.

(00:19:52):
It may not.

(00:19:53):
but now we can open up a conversation oh that's interesting that did not work for

(00:19:58):
me but this does work for me and you start expanding and that is how we become more

(00:20:03):
expansive and community grows even when you don't agree yeah that's it I mean the

(00:20:11):
part about community growing even when you don't agree is is so critical and you

(00:20:17):
know I feel like I'm being a little repetitive highlighting that but I I

(00:20:22):
I suppose I hope that by repeatedly highlighting it we can hypnotize people into

(00:20:26):
actually believing it because I can come to you and I don't even have to be

(00:20:33):
particularly respectful I can be like Desiree this thing you think is just stupid

(00:20:37):
why do you think that and you know we can talk back and forth about it and maybe

(00:20:45):
you'll come over to my side maybe I'll come over to your side

(00:20:49):
Or maybe I'll just be like,

(00:20:50):
okay,

(00:20:50):
she thinks that thing and it's not actually stupid and I still disagree and I still

(00:20:53):
think I'm right.

(00:20:54):
And it doesn't really change the way I feel about her because like I can care about

(00:20:58):
someone that I disagree with.

(00:21:00):
Right.

(00:21:01):
And we can do that.

(00:21:03):
We can...

(00:21:04):
We Can Care About People Who We Disagree With And And This Is The Part That I Think

(00:21:09):
Is Really Hard For People It's Certainly Hard For Me We Can Care About People Who

(00:21:14):
Do Not See Us As Perfect And Who See Our Flaws And I Think That's The Really Tricky

(00:21:21):
Part About Settling Into Disagreement In Community Is It Requires You To Be Seen As

(00:21:28):
Like An Imperfect Person Right But It Goes Right Back To What You Was Saying With

(00:21:33):
The Perfectionism

(00:21:35):
And you have to be okay with being human It's why I share so much of my life So

(00:21:41):
people do not deify me Like,

(00:21:44):
nope,

(00:21:45):
this is it This is what I'm doing This is how I'm showing up Because I want people

(00:21:50):
to recognize It is a human experience And to be human is to be divine It is a

(00:21:58):
divine experience At the same damn time

(00:22:02):
I want to make mistakes and I don't mind making them out loud and I don't mind

(00:22:06):
being corrected and it allows you to learn more right if I'm going to continuously

(00:22:14):
show up perfect then I make no room for growth because I'm so busy trying to

(00:22:20):
perform I have I'm not actually living I'm not actually experiencing I'm just going

(00:22:27):
to put on a happy face and push on through

(00:22:30):
and watch this and I don't want to do that because that there's no real connection

(00:22:35):
there's no connection to myself therefore there's no way I can connect to another

(00:22:39):
or and then definitely can't connect to the broader system of community well I

(00:22:45):
think so while you're saying this this other bit popped into my head and you can

(00:22:50):
tell me if this resonates for you or not I also think that when you are part of a

(00:22:55):
marginalized community um

(00:22:58):
You get this notion that you almost have to earn your liberation.

(00:23:03):
So a lot of women feel like,

(00:23:06):
well,

(00:23:06):
you know,

(00:23:07):
to earn a partner who treats me with decency,

(00:23:10):
I really have to be like a perfect wife and mother.

(00:23:13):
And we certainly see how white supremacy talks about black people,

(00:23:18):
especially black women,

(00:23:20):
where,

(00:23:20):
you know,

(00:23:21):
we can respect them if they're perfect,

(00:23:24):
but if they step out of line,

(00:23:25):
well,

(00:23:26):
they just deserve whatever happens to them.

(00:23:29):
and and so these pressures aren't just things that like we have made up these are

(00:23:34):
very real this idea that we have to earn decent treatment and I think if we accept

(00:23:41):
that other people don't have to earn decent treatment then we also have to extend

(00:23:45):
that kindness to ourself and so maybe there's some self-healing involved in um

(00:23:52):
You know,

(00:23:52):
accepting that we can treat others with decency even if they're kind of annoying

(00:23:56):
assholes sometimes because then that means we can be annoying assholes and still

(00:24:00):
deserve good things.

(00:24:02):
See, I think it happens in reverse.

(00:24:06):
I do not believe that you can see me as a person until you see yourself as one.

(00:24:13):
It's what I say.

(00:24:15):
I do not believe white people want to save black people when they're not concerned

(00:24:23):
with poor white people.

(00:24:25):
As long as white people are calling other white people white trash, I can't believe it.

(00:24:29):
I just don't.

(00:24:30):
I just don't.

(00:24:31):
Because that is your first community.

(00:24:35):
Those are your first folks.

(00:24:37):
Those are your cousins.

(00:24:37):
That's your kin.

(00:24:39):
so to not see them as people nigger is not far behind you know what I'm saying so I

(00:24:46):
don't for when somebody to turn around well I could see Desiree or this person as

(00:24:51):
human you are performing it because until you can look in that mirror and see

(00:24:55):
yourself flaws and all

(00:24:58):
to allow yourself to be imperfect.

(00:25:00):
It is when you offer yourself the grace that you could extend that to other people.

(00:25:05):
Whilst you're extending it to other people, you're pulling, you're extracting.

(00:25:10):
It's more extractive behavior, right?

(00:25:13):
But when you can turn around and look at yourself and see yourself as whole,

(00:25:18):
flawed,

(00:25:18):
fucked up,

(00:25:19):
I make mistakes and I'm still amazing and I'm still worthy and I'm still allowed

(00:25:25):
and access should not be denied,

(00:25:28):
It comes from the overflow Of course I'm going to be able to give that to somebody

(00:25:32):
else Because I do it to myself every single day Every single day Every single day

(00:25:37):
Like I have full expectation Of everyone around me To show up Because I show up for

(00:25:44):
me I'm going to show up for me Before I show up for my kids I'm going to show up

(00:25:50):
for me Before I show up writing I'm going to show up for me Before I show up for

(00:25:54):
anybody else I'm going to take care of me

(00:25:57):
And then when I get to anybody else is the overflow and it is literally an extension of myself.

(00:26:02):
So the humanity that I offer to others is because I offer it to me first.

(00:26:06):
I do not think that it can happen in the inverse.

(00:26:10):
Interesting.

(00:26:11):
So I'm thinking about whether or not I agree with you in real time.

(00:26:15):
I love that.

(00:26:16):
And I don't know.

(00:26:18):
I don't have a strong opinion on this.

(00:26:21):
See, that's another thing.

(00:26:23):
And you could sit with it too, right?

(00:26:25):
Like, that's another, you know, me.

(00:26:26):
Put a pin in it.

(00:26:28):
Sit with it.

(00:26:28):
Come back next week.

(00:26:29):
Maybe you're like, absolutely not, Des.

(00:26:31):
I disagree with that.

(00:26:33):
Yeah,

(00:26:34):
I think that's helpful for us to sometimes say,

(00:26:36):
like,

(00:26:37):
I don't have a strong opinion on this or I don't know what my opinion is or both

(00:26:41):
sides sound like they could be right to me.

(00:26:44):
You know, I...

(00:26:46):
You and I have talked about this specific issue a lot,

(00:26:49):
and you talk about this a lot,

(00:26:52):
particularly regarding how you feel like white people cannot see black people as

(00:26:58):
fully human until they see other disenfranchised white people as fully human.

(00:27:04):
And this is one of the things that you say that sounds really good and true to me.

(00:27:09):
And I'm like, yeah, I get why she thinks that.

(00:27:11):
I just don't know if I agree with her or not.

(00:27:13):
And I don't have a strong counter-argument.

(00:27:17):
I'm just not sure if that's the way it works.

(00:27:19):
And I'm thinking about whether or not that's the way it works for me.

(00:27:22):
And I don't know.

(00:27:23):
I don't have an answer.

(00:27:24):
That's okay.

(00:27:25):
You don't have to.

(00:27:28):
Right?

(00:27:29):
Part of the seeking, and the answer could be you disagreeing.

(00:27:34):
And that's fine, right?

(00:27:35):
Like that's literally what we're talking about And it's not going to change my

(00:27:39):
opinion I think that that's another thing in conflict Is that we have to stop

(00:27:45):
trying to convince other people of something else I'm not here to convince you of

(00:27:50):
that So when I talk to people Because I don't believe that there's just one way of

(00:27:54):
doing anything That's another one of those pillars of supremacy culture,

(00:27:57):
right?

(00:27:58):
One right way

(00:27:59):
So, you know what?

(00:28:00):
Your way may lead you to the way you build community.

(00:28:06):
And that's fine.

(00:28:07):
It's not my way.

(00:28:08):
But there are many ways, right?

(00:28:10):
Like right now,

(00:28:11):
if I gave somebody directions to get to the grocery store,

(00:28:15):
to go to Kroger,

(00:28:17):
I'm going to give it my way.

(00:28:19):
You're going to give it another way.

(00:28:21):
Either way, they end up at Kroger.

(00:28:22):
I don't give a damn.

(00:28:24):
Yeah.

(00:28:26):
So that's what it is for me.

(00:28:28):
It's like, cool, I don't need to convince you.

(00:28:30):
It's just, I do have a strong opinion on it.

(00:28:33):
And it is one that I'm rooted in.

(00:28:37):
A lot of my work is rooted in.

(00:28:38):
I really believe in that inner world, outer world.

(00:28:42):
So for me, it is canon for me on truth.

(00:28:48):
But it doesn't have to be for you.

(00:28:49):
And that's absolutely okay.

(00:28:52):
Well,

(00:28:52):
and,

(00:28:53):
you know,

(00:28:53):
hearing you say that that is canon for you and that that's important to you,

(00:28:58):
I think my impulse when I hear you say this,

(00:29:02):
where I'm kind of like,

(00:29:03):
I'm kind of neutral on this.

(00:29:04):
Like, I don't have a lot of feelings about this.

(00:29:07):
I could make a counterargument.

(00:29:08):
I could agree with her, kind of whatever.

(00:29:11):
Hearing you say that you really believe this gives me pause to go back and really

(00:29:16):
sit with it of like,

(00:29:17):
okay,

(00:29:18):
This is something that is true and importantly true to someone I respect.

(00:29:25):
So I need to think about it more.

(00:29:28):
And I think that that's something that we maybe don't do so much in community is

(00:29:34):
talk about whether something is a minor belief to us or an important belief.

(00:29:41):
I see this a lot with men who want to debate feminism and

(00:29:46):
Just the white people who want to debate racism.

(00:29:51):
And for these men, it's like fun entertainment.

(00:29:54):
It's like, ooh, let's spar.

(00:29:56):
And it's not that important to them.

(00:29:59):
And I think that's where things start to go wrong is they just don't really care about it.

(00:30:03):
It's like a fun exercise.

(00:30:05):
Whereas for the woman, it's a matter of life and death.

(00:30:08):
And I think maybe some of what we need to do is get clearer about

(00:30:12):
how committed we are to something and how important it is to our understanding of

(00:30:16):
ourselves our philosophy our community all of that I like that so you know that

(00:30:23):
would be a wonderful practice yeah so hearing that's important to you I'm gonna I'm

(00:30:28):
gonna think about this I'm gonna really give it some thought and then I'm gonna

(00:30:32):
give you

(00:30:33):
Like an answer about what I think about this if I have one for our next episode.

(00:30:39):
I love that.

(00:30:40):
I'm excited to hear it.

(00:30:41):
And I'd like to know what shifts or what doesn't, right?

(00:30:46):
Or, you know, because maybe some of it resonates.

(00:30:47):
You know, it does.

(00:30:48):
I could see that.

(00:30:50):
But and, right?

(00:30:52):
And more conversations need to happen.

(00:30:55):
That is the point.

(00:30:57):
We are not talking enough.

(00:30:59):
We are simply agreeing, right?

(00:31:02):
Like, oh, you're a leftist?

(00:31:03):
Cool.

(00:31:04):
Okay, but what does that mean to you?

(00:31:06):
What does being a leftist mean?

(00:31:08):
You know, and where's your praxis, right?

(00:31:12):
Like, you're a leftist, but...

(00:31:16):
Are you a leftist and?

(00:31:18):
What's going on?

(00:31:20):
And what are we having conversations about?

(00:31:22):
And going back to your point on who do you feel that can be abused?

(00:31:27):
That doesn't jive with me.

(00:31:29):
You can't talk to people in a way that's going to further push them.

(00:31:38):
I find that to be something that's just lazy as hell.

(00:31:44):
What are you doing?

(00:31:45):
Because what is the end goal?

(00:31:49):
And in a lot of leftist communities,

(00:31:51):
because like for me,

(00:31:51):
I don't identify with any of the,

(00:31:54):
I'm just like,

(00:31:56):
I just want to be free from it all.

(00:31:58):
The world that I'm working towards doesn't have any of this bullshit.

(00:32:02):
I'm not trying to pick a side.

(00:32:04):
I don't want inside.

(00:32:07):
I don't want the box.

(00:32:09):
I want it to go away.

(00:32:12):
I approach things from that angle.

(00:32:15):
There's no reformation of this system.

(00:32:17):
I have zero hope in it.

(00:32:20):
It's total destruction and rebuild.

(00:32:25):
And we can do that small, simple, parallel systems, these sorts of conversations, right?

(00:32:32):
Saying, you know what, I am going to sit with that.

(00:32:34):
Or like you said,

(00:32:35):
making an acknowledgement,

(00:32:36):
you know what,

(00:32:36):
I don't really have a strong opinion on that,

(00:32:38):
right?

(00:32:38):
Because you don't, everything you don't have to have a fucking strong opinion on.

(00:32:42):
Everything is not a debate, right?

(00:32:43):
Or turning around,

(00:32:44):
well,

(00:32:44):
you know what,

(00:32:45):
I don't have a strong opinion on it,

(00:32:46):
but you know what,

(00:32:46):
I love you,

(00:32:47):
I care about you,

(00:32:48):
I respect you,

(00:32:49):
and I see that you have a strong opinion on it.

(00:32:51):
So I want to sit with it and see if that shifts for me.

(00:32:55):
All of those things are so vital to healthy communication,

(00:33:00):
to healthy community building,

(00:33:02):
to being able to be in spaces with people that you don't always agree with.

(00:33:07):
And that's going to be okay.

(00:33:10):
And you will be okay.

(00:33:12):
And it leads to safety, right?

(00:33:15):
Like, okay, cool.

(00:33:16):
I get to actually be my whole self and I'm still safe.

(00:33:24):
So I want to highlight this very simple question you asked, which is, what are you doing?

(00:33:31):
And I think this is such a profound question for us all to ask ourselves kind of

(00:33:37):
all the time when we're having conflict,

(00:33:40):
when we're feeling like we're out of alignment with someone,

(00:33:43):
is to look at our own behavior and not so much to focus on aggressively judging the

(00:33:49):
other person and say,

(00:33:51):
What are you doing?

(00:33:53):
And why?

(00:33:54):
Why are you doing this?

(00:33:56):
Because it's so easy to itemize all the things the other person has done wrong and

(00:34:01):
how they're a bad activist and a bad feminist and they're not committed to

(00:34:04):
liberation.

(00:34:05):
They have the wrong praxis and the wrong politics and all of this.

(00:34:09):
And all the time that we spend judging other people is time that we spend not

(00:34:14):
improving ourselves and we're the only people we can actually improve.

(00:34:20):
Yes.

(00:34:21):
No,

(00:34:22):
I was thinking,

(00:34:23):
and I was like,

(00:34:25):
because of the way you approached the other one,

(00:34:27):
I was like,

(00:34:27):
do I have something,

(00:34:28):
you know?

(00:34:30):
Maybe not.

(00:34:30):
To oppose of that.

(00:34:31):
No, yes, I agree.

(00:34:34):
All right.

(00:34:35):
Well, we said that we were going to do like 30 minutes because- That was going to be impossible.

(00:34:40):
We have both had just like the craziest couple of weeks.

(00:34:44):
People listening have no idea.

(00:34:47):
None.

(00:34:48):
None.

(00:34:49):
Canceled This Family Members Nearly Getting Arrested HVAC System Out Trying To

(00:34:57):
Start An Academy Everything All Of The Things What's Going On With Your HVAC I'm

(00:35:02):
Going To Ask For Our Audience So They Can Hear The Horror That Has Unfolded At Your

(00:35:06):
House I Don't Know You Want To Know Let Me Tell You Let Me Tell You All So I'm Like

(00:35:14):
Okay The Air Is Going It's Blowing Cold It's Lovely

(00:35:18):
And then it goes out And I'm so thankful God answers this universe That it has been

(00:35:22):
cool this week Because usually by this time of year It's already sweltering So I'm

(00:35:27):
like,

(00:35:27):
okay,

(00:35:27):
cool Let me just get the disconnect thing I had pulled out And I seen that it was

(00:35:31):
broken So I was like,

(00:35:32):
oh,

(00:35:32):
maybe Maybe there's just like Not enough amperage going through,

(00:35:36):
right?

(00:35:37):
So I call the guy He comes,

(00:35:38):
he fixes it He's like,

(00:35:39):
yeah,

(00:35:40):
no It's not You need a new AC condenser coil Whatever

(00:35:47):
And I'm like, okay, fine.

(00:35:48):
If it gets too hot, we'll just use the homestead to cool off.

(00:35:55):
The AC is gone in the homestead too.

(00:35:59):
No!

(00:36:00):
No!

(00:36:01):
Yes!

(00:36:02):
Thankfully, that's a rental, so there's a landlord, so she'll get that fixed.

(00:36:09):
But yeah, it's just crazy.

(00:36:12):
I don't know.

(00:36:12):
I'm trying to take these as signs.

(00:36:15):
I'm trying to take these as signs.

(00:36:17):
That just, you know, like, I don't know.

(00:36:19):
I'm trying to make it positive.

(00:36:21):
Like, and I don't have a spin.

(00:36:22):
Fuck it.

(00:36:23):
No.

(00:36:23):
My AC is out.

(00:36:24):
I'm pissed off.

(00:36:25):
Everything is crazy.

(00:36:26):
It's the end of the school year.

(00:36:27):
We're testing.

(00:36:28):
I'm ready to go to sleep.

(00:36:29):
Like, for a week.

(00:36:31):
Not like this instant.

(00:36:32):
Like, I'm ready to just, like, sleep for a month.

(00:36:34):
I want school to be over.

(00:36:35):
And I want to have to do nothing.

(00:36:38):
Alright, so have you heard about these people?

(00:36:40):
And I'm probably gonna get their philosophy wrong, so please don't come for me.

(00:36:46):
There are these people who think that they're,

(00:36:48):
like,

(00:36:49):
electrically charged and that their presence near,

(00:36:53):
like,

(00:36:54):
electrical devices damages those devices.

(00:36:57):
Have you heard of that?

(00:36:57):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

(00:36:58):
Those people are real.

(00:37:00):
My cousin, and if she listens... Is she gonna be mad at me?

(00:37:05):
Like, you bitch!

(00:37:08):
Okay,

(00:37:09):
so if your cousin has it,

(00:37:12):
I mean,

(00:37:13):
if the AC has gone out at both places where you are,

(00:37:16):
Desiree,

(00:37:16):
like,

(00:37:17):
maybe it's you.

(00:37:18):
Maybe you're one of those electrical people.

(00:37:21):
I am not.

(00:37:22):
She definitely is because,

(00:37:23):
listen,

(00:37:23):
she came here and visited and my microwave has never fucking worked again.

(00:37:28):
Literally.

(00:37:29):
And she's been like that since we were kids.

(00:37:30):
Watch it.

(00:37:31):
My mom, too, which is crazy.

(00:37:32):
Like, my mom could never...

(00:37:35):
So you're just unlucky.

(00:38:00):
Okay,

(00:38:00):
I have to tell you about my home repair crisis because it's not as bad as yours,

(00:38:06):
but it's like more galling than yours because I've had to deal with a plumber,

(00:38:09):
which is a special kind of nightmare.

(00:38:12):
So a couple of weeks ago, I'm in the shower and I'm shaving my legs and the water's cold.

(00:38:19):
I mean, not freezing cold, but like I'm a person who is cold and so I need really hot water.

(00:38:25):
So I yell to Jeff, like, this water's fucking cold and I cannot tolerate this.

(00:38:30):
And he comes upstairs and he sticks his hand in the shower.

(00:38:33):
And this man, who I love, makes a very bad decision.

(00:38:38):
He says, no, the water is not cold.

(00:38:40):
The water is fine.

(00:38:42):
And I'm like, no, it's not fine.

(00:38:45):
It's colder.

(00:38:46):
But, like, I admit that it's not cold, cold.

(00:38:49):
So we agree...

(00:38:52):
that it's clear that like the hot water heater has not gone out.

(00:38:55):
Our gas has not been shut off.

(00:38:57):
The pilot light has not gone out, but the water is definitely colder than it should be.

(00:39:02):
So I start doing research because Jeff's doing depositions or something.

(00:39:06):
So I take this on as my project to research and I conclude that it's a problem of

(00:39:14):
the hot and cold water mixing and that there's like three different parts that can

(00:39:17):
cause this problem.

(00:39:19):
So I'm feeling good.

(00:39:20):
I'm feeling like we're going to get the plumber out here.

(00:39:22):
The plumber's going to come in.

(00:39:23):
They're going to fix it.

(00:39:23):
It's going to be a couple hundred dollars.

(00:39:26):
Good.

(00:39:27):
Yeah.

(00:39:28):
Plumber comes and he is this adorable precious little man.

(00:39:32):
He's like 20 years old.

(00:39:33):
He's tiny.

(00:39:35):
He's so cute.

(00:39:36):
And he's like ma'am and sir and he's charmed by my kids and I just like him so much.

(00:39:45):
Oh, I got a screaming baby.

(00:39:47):
Give me one minute and I'll be back.

(00:39:50):
Cool beans.

(00:39:50):
I'll be here.

(00:39:55):
Okay.

(00:39:56):
The screaming baby has been quenched.

(00:39:58):
Now the dog's screaming.

(00:40:00):
It's just endless.

(00:40:02):
All right.

(00:40:04):
So he comes in.

(00:40:06):
He's just so cute.

(00:40:07):
I just want to love this little boy man.

(00:40:11):
Boy man is crazy.

(00:40:14):
He can't

(00:40:16):
He can't figure out what the problem is.

(00:40:19):
And he's doing tests.

(00:40:21):
He goes down to the crawl space.

(00:40:23):
It seems like he's doing a lot, but he can't diagnose the problem.

(00:40:28):
So what do you think he does when he can't diagnose the problem?

(00:40:31):
He says, okay, well, you just need to replace your whole hot water heater.

(00:40:35):
I'm like, sir, boy man, you have not diagnosed the problem.

(00:40:40):
Yes.

(00:40:41):
And he refuses to engage in any further diagnostic discussion about what this could

(00:40:48):
possibly be.

(00:40:51):
So we did some more research and we concluded that it's not the hot water heater.

(00:40:56):
It's this other thing.

(00:40:57):
But we haven't fixed the other thing.

(00:40:59):
So I've not been able to shave because the shower is too fucking cold.

(00:41:03):
And we are too lazy.

(00:41:05):
I'm so sorry.

(00:41:06):
That's where life is right now.

(00:41:08):
But it's fine.

(00:41:09):
It's so fine.

(00:41:12):
So this is my chance to say...

(00:41:37):
If you value Desiree's voice and what she's doing now,

(00:41:41):
it'd be a great chance to subscribe and support her.

(00:41:44):
Thank you.

(00:41:46):
I guess if people are listening to this, they already subscribe to you.

(00:41:49):
So you can give a gift subscription.

(00:41:51):
Send your subscription.

(00:41:53):
They can join the Academy in a week.

(00:41:57):
Yeah, they can join the Academy, which will be

(00:41:59):
all over all of Desiree's pages very soon.

(00:42:02):
So,

(00:42:03):
okay,

(00:42:03):
we're gonna wrap it up with our crumbling houses that are going to crumble into

(00:42:07):
dust soon.

(00:42:11):
And we'll be back in some interval, maybe two months, maybe a couple of weeks with more.

(00:42:18):
And thanks y'all for listening.

(00:42:21):
I look forward to it.

(00:42:22):
I always love chatting with you.

(00:42:24):
So thank you for this time and thank you for everybody.

(00:42:27):
who has given me grace, patience and space and still sticking around.

(00:42:32):
And money.

(00:42:33):
Give her money.

(00:42:34):
And money.

(00:42:35):
Thank you for the money for real.

(00:42:37):
Give her money.

(00:42:38):
I love you Zawn.

(00:42:42):
I'm going to get these kids because Karen has now called me 13 times.