Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today I'm speaking to Massimo.

Massimo grew up in a traditional Italian Catholic

family. He now works for the Jesuits. In the last

decade, he's lost his family, grown in his faith

and relationship with Jesus, as well as becoming a

carer for his mum and raising a young family. In

this conversation, Massimo tells us how he went

from calling himself Catholic to having this

deeper relationship with Jesus and finding his

calling, where he lives out his faith with Jesus

at the front of his mind as a proud Catholic.

So, Massimo, what was it like growing up in a

traditional Italian Catholic family?

Massimo: Well, I never really understood, the phrase cradle

Catholic before randomly, even though that's

exactly what I was. And I always say you blink.

And by the time I blinked, I was baptised.

Communion, Confirmation, it's. It was just

standard. Even though I was born in London, North

London, proudly, you, in the Italian community,

you're Catholic. If you weren't Catholic, it was.

Looked like you had two heads because it's just a,

normal thing that. The thing that's different

about my upbringing, which trying to think about

the other people that we used to mix with in the

community, is my parents never forced, which you

could argue here now say never forced religion on

me, but I was obviously baptised Communion and

Confirmation, but never once did they say, you

have to go to church on Sunday. Never once. Like

some of my friends who are Nigerian, you know,

going to church on Sunday, you get dressed, up ye,

up you go. Never. We only ever used to go almost

sort of regimentally, I suppose, in that sense was

Easter and Christmas, but not always even then,

but, but sometimes so they didn't push it on me in

that sense. The other thing growing up is, which

is probably my love for iconography as well.

Pretty Much. In every room of the house, there was

either a picture of Jesus or the Holy Family, or

Mary or a cross or a crucifix. And my parents

didn't, you know, tell me to pay attention to

these in every room. But, you know, in a strange

way, it resonated always within me, you know, my

faith, even though I didn't engage with it until I

was a bit older. Absolutely. If someone asked me

what I was, I'm a Christian, I'm Catholic. So

growing up in an Italian house of faith, it was.

You knew what you were and you are proud to be

what you were. But in my case, it was never

pronounced. It was never. It never felt forced.

Julia: So how did you connect your faith then, at that

stage?

Massimo: Back then?

Julia: Yeah.

Massimo: So. Good question. I suppose I connected with it

through my culture. You know, Italians, you'd say

it's kind of. I don't know what the stat is, but

it's probably over 90 are, Christian slash

Catholic. So it was part of my cultural identity

to be a Christian and certainly Catholic. And also

certain things I would do when I would be in Italy

and we'd go to a wedding and there'd be a Catholic

Mass, I'd sort of engage and ask a few questions

as to, you know, what was going on and why it is.

And actually, I think the other thing which I. I

do think is really important in terms of, you

know, certainly Catholicism and the sacraments, is

when you first receive Holy Communion, you are

engaged. You are engaged because although you're

received into the Church, when you're baptised,

and that's. That's the big one in that sense, once

you receive the Communion. I knew that was a big

deal. Whenever I went to church, I would take Holy

Communion, so I engaged with it. I didn't engage

with it in a. Probably in a superficial level of

saying, oh, please, God, let my team win. Please,

God, let. I didn't go further than that, I

suppose.

Julia: So, when did that change?

Massimo: Well, that changed, I would say, about 10 years

ago, when very sadly, I lost my dad to the evil

disease that is cancer. Ah. That's, when things

started to turn. Actually, that's not quite right.

Just prior to that, I moved north and there was a

Catholic Church within walking distance, so I'd

left all my friends and family behind. And I

almost was saying before I've said to. To friends

that I almost had a premonition that I would need

God. because actually, at that stage, dad hadn't

got ill, so I had this sort of premonition. I

hadn't gone to church every Sunday, far from it.

Talk about. I didn't. I don't like the term lapsed

Catholic because I've, I will always identify as

that. But I didn't do as much as I could do, you

know, go on the, you know, the days, the holy days

that you should go and obviously on a Sunday. But

when I moved north, I thought, I need to go every

Sunday here. And I went, started to go then. But

then the real engagement after that happened when

I lost my dad.

Julia: Can you tell us a bit more about that premonition

and that sense of needing faith and God in your

life?

Massimo: Yeah, I suppose most people will hear that there's

a hole in their life or it's a, a, ah, lack of

fulfilment, being Italian and dramatic. there was

a sense of foreboding. There was. Maybe it was

brought about by, you know, when I was at

university I was probably voted not person likely

to be Prime Minister, but person least likely to

move north because I was a proud Southerner. but

I, I absolutely smashed that out of the park by

moving quite far north. and maybe it was leaving

my family, leaving all my friends, that emphasise,

ah, that hole because I didn't have any of my

friends of my own up there. So I think that pushed

me into a direction of thinking, what's happening?

And it was almost like, it was almost like there

was, you know, I could almost see now especially

like in the Ignatian sense of engaging, you know,

putting yourself, putting up a chair with Jesus

and talk to me. I could almost imagine him sort of

looking at his watch going, you know what this is?

Come on, come on, you're gonna get there. And then

I was like, I need to go to church, I need to

start. So I can't tell you. I think it was the

void of being alone. But, and thankfully I thank

Jesus Christ every day I didn't engage in, you

know, alcohol or drugs or, you know, people fill a

void with an addiction. I was. And was there, was

it just by chance that there was a church that was

within a five minute walk and this was key.

Downhill now. I knew I'd have to go uphill on the

way, but getting there was downhill, so it was

always easier.

Julia: I totally get that. Like when something's downhill

it does feel easy, even if, you know, you have to

come uphill to go back. But it's when you have to

make that decision in the morning. Like, do I get

out of bed and go and the downhill, like,

persuades you a bit more.

Massimo: He knew, he knew what he was doing.

Julia: He knew, he knew you were saying that it's a

coincidence that the church was five minute

walkway, but I don't feel like it was a

coincidence.

Massimo: I, agree. I don't think it was. And I don't think

the fact that it was downhill. And do you know

what I love about some Catholic churches? From the

outside, it looked this one a bit like austere.

And it looked like it was just on the edge of two

other buildings. It's an old one. But then you go

in, it's like, whoa. you know, so it was also

another one that I went in and it wasn't. Is this

a coincidence? We know it's not. I felt

comfortable there. As soon as I went in, I

Julia: felt comfortable, which is a really good thing to

have, like, somewhere that you feel comfortable.

So going from that strong sense of being in

church, did you then have this stronger sense of

Christ that was with you?

Massimo: Again, I would say no, because one thing that I

was lacking, maybe even though I, my faith was, I

knew what I was, I'd never wavered like some

people, even when they sort of like distance a

bit, they might, you know, just branch out into

other things, other face to explore. I never did

that. I knew what it was, but I always thought,

which down the line, which I'll come on to later,

why. Working with the Jesuits has been quite a

profound experience for my faith. I always found

that. I always found that my dialogue with Jesus

wasn't great. And when I heard people talk about

that, I'm like, I don't get it. I don't. How do I

do that? I don't get it. So I knew I was trying to

do that, but I didn't feel, I knew he was there,

that this is the key. It's not like I was, I was

in church, was like, where are. I knew he was

there, but I didn't feel the connection inside

just yet. Not, not at that point.

Julia: So how did, when your dad did die, how did your

faith support you at that time?

Massimo: Well, it was interesting because initially, and

this is going to resonate to people obviously

who've lost someone, especially like a parent. I

went away for a week into the wilds of Scotland,

the west coast, on the peninsula. And, the Lord

had some strong words, you know, because at this

stage I still didn't get, you know, there's people

who said, my brother's one of them, who says, you

know, if you know God existed or this, and why

does he give people cancer? And back then you're

like, why can't you just, you know, you've got the

power to heal people. Miracles and everything

else. But again, I did not. I hadn't harnessed the

knowledge, I hadn't harnessed the understanding.

So when I was having that conversation, with Jesus

on top of, you know, the worlds of this mountain,

and I was thinking, hold on, you know, this is the

most important man in my life. And you've. And

he's a strong man. And he nearly beat this as

well. Like, how's this happening? You know, how.

Why don't I just not care? Why don't I just not

care? How about I. How about I don't care? And a

lot of the people, I suppose, who may have got to

that stage, which is very difficult, is whilst

you're saying those words, you feel even m emptier

as you say them. And that doesn't feel right. It

just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right in

general. But you're saying this to someone who.

Which I found out later down the line, as you're

weeping because you've lost the most, he's weeping

with you. He's right there feeling that pain with

you. At that time, when I was shouting at him, I

didn't understand that. I think that was the

crossover point when I started to calm down, that

I started to feel him m around me more. that after

we'd had that point where I was thinking, am I

gonna. If everything, if it was anything that was

going to steer me away from faith is, and often

is, you know, losing someone because your brain

can't compute it. So I had it out, with him. And

the result of that is him, me feeling that he was

a lot closer to me.

Julia: So going from that, what led you to then being all

in. In your 30s, into your faith?

Massimo: So I knew that, I needed to be equipped for what

was going forward, which. There was a lot of

changes going on in my life. Relationships ending,

moving back from being up north to come down

south, leaving a job, getting a new job, and then,

the big deal of moving in with my mum, who was a

grieving widow. They'd been together 50 years. it

was very difficult because I couldn't show my

grief, because my mum couldn't handle seeing me

upset. So I had to park my grief as. Deal with

hers as well as essentially be the man of the

house because of everything my dad did and I was

not equipped. You know, I, I honestly don't know

how I probably survived that early time because of

the. I, you know, I experienced trauma, you know,

when you speak to people who experience it in sort

of in decade slots, life changing ones, and I had

about four in the space of about six months. So

you don't, your brain doesn't have the chance to,

to adjust and to understand what's happening. And

in my view, obviously, I'm biassed. there's only

one person who can remotely help, and I start with

just that word, help, and that's Jesus. because

what he suffered for, for us, the pain for all of

us, we. We can't come close to that. We can't come

close to that. So having. I knew I needed him in

my life, I knew I needed him to navigate these

paths. And along the way someone I read a really,

like, beautiful thing where they were saying that,

you know, you need to imagine, you know, Jesus is

lovingly creating the cross, that, you know,

everyone has one to bear with his tears, with his

blood, with his passion, that he knows that you

can, you can handle it. And for the record, you

know, because whenever I've said this, other

people, well, you know, then, you know, it should

be easy. It's not easy. What he did for us was not

easy. So, you know, that's not going to be the

same. But knowing that he's with you at that,

every step you've got someone to turn to. I think

the only way I'm sort of, you know, still around

is, is that I've had Jesus with me.

So, yeah,

Julia: So with this current job, you talked about it

being like a calling, which is something you've

never had before. So how did it feel for you to

suddenly be where you're at in life, to feel like

you were being called into a job?

Massimo: That's a good question, I think, I'm mildly, but

not purposely lied, in the sense that before when

I was in communications, I was working in the

private sector. and then when dad was having his

treatment passed and I saw how incredible the NHS

m, you know, were with him, I knew that I wanted

to. This is the whole thing. And again, you know

scripture, but also teaching since I've been here

about using your skills for good. And I knew I

wanted to do that. And so I went to work for the

NHS in digital communications for that time. But I

again knew, I knew, I knew that I was being called

to serve him. I knew I couldn't be A priest,

because I'm married and I've got kids. but I knew

I. And I still want to explore kind of my service

to the Lord. But, right now. And that's the whole

point of things, isn't it? And that's especially

quite a Jesuit way of people using their skills to

help their mission, you know, and my skills are as

a storyteller. And, you know, I. My boss is Jesus,

literally, because I'm in the Society of Jesus, I

mean, technically Saint Ignatius, but, his boss is

also Jesus. And I get to work, you know, I just

think it's just the biggest gift, you know, like

what I do. I see Jesus every day. Pretty much

every time I'm doing an interview or doing an edit

with the films I make, he's on my screen in my

head. That's why when I say it's like the best

job, because it. It. I use my skills to be able to

tell the story of incredible people who work for

the Jesuits and what they do, from going into

prisons, you know, to teaching in schools, you

know, to saying Mass, it's just I get to tell

these beautiful stories and then I also get to

meet the people that. That impacts. So to me,

marrying my faith with the skills that I've got to

help. Yeah, if talk about that is fulfilling, you

know, that's fulfilment. You can love your job and

then there's loving your job and for feeling

fulfilled by it. And there isn't, you know, the.

The gigantic cause of my fulfilment is obviously

my m. Faith and I get to use my faith within my

job. Yeah, that's. That's incredible.

Julia: So you spoke earlier about how sometimes you found

it difficult to have that dialogue with Jesus.

Now, looking back, how do you feel God has spoken

to you?

Massimo: actually, it's quite current in that sense because

obviously as my faith deepened, I would be going

to church every Sunday, sometimes multiple times

in the week. So just being in the presence of the

Lord in that way, receiving, you know, Eucharist

would just as a point, made me feel closer, but

bizarrely. And, you know, people feel about

callings, certainly people in religious life. When

I had left my previous job, I knew Jesus was

calling me to do something. I didn't know what

that was yet. And then this job with Jesuits in

Britain came up and being Catholic, didn't know

who the Jesuits were, but I didn't really know

much about it. And if I'm honest, I'm probably

more of a traditional Catholic in Terms of, you

know, I like things how they are and the way they

are. I'd never once considered things like, you

know, contemplative prayer, meditation. I just

sort of didn't really understand it. And then

taking a job here, I did one of the online

retreats with, the magnificent Steve Hoyland from

the Jesuit Institute. And part of that retreat,

but also it's part of the examine, when you are

putting yourself there with Jesus at the end of

the day, pulling up a chair with him and telling

him about your day. I found that almost to me,

sort of revolutionary because. And there's some

people who might be more traditional, so don't

quite understand that way. But I'm, I, I think to

myself, anything that you can do that bring you

closer to your faith, that can open up that

dialogue with the Lord. Why would you not do it?

Because when I've done. Has felt incredible. It

has felt incredible because, you know, there's

times which, and I'm sort of open to say, you

know, where I've just. He's been sitting down and

I've just given him a hug and wept because, you

know, there's just, you know, Steve said with some

other things, like there's no, no where else I'd

rather be than his presence. and that has helped

my dialogue now when I'm sometimes, you know, I

still do my kind of, you know, traditional prayer

avenue because I feel comfortable in that avenue.

But to actually have that dialogue, I, I, I employ

those methods now. And when I do employ those

methods, I, that dialogue opens up. And there are

times when I felt just beyond close that he is

with me. and I think that has happened. That whole

dialogue thing, knowing that I'm actually speaking

to him has happened. I think since I've started to

employ some of the Ignatian spirituality

traditions from honest.

Julia: And if someone is listening who's never done

contemplative prayer before, how would you like,

recommend they get started or find resources to do

it?

Massimo: I mean, again, I'm biassed. the Jesuit Institute

offers a lot of retreats and some of which are

online. I think the brilliant things. One, I think

when I, when I got the job, I was like, we need to

know more about this. Is that it fits in with your

life. It fits in with how busy you are. And it has

been one of the most worthwhile things I've done

in my faith journey that I've actually been able

to connect more so by using this style of, this

method, really, because

Julia: you talk about People being busy, but you're quite

busy yourself. You are, ah, full time care of your

mum and you look after your young daughter and you

work full time. How would you cope with that all?

Massimo: being a carer for my mom is, ah, very challenging.

She's a stubborn Southern Italian woman, so she's

not the best patient to care for. But she's my mum

and it's very, very difficult mentally and

physically. But again, you know, the thing is,

and, and I know not everyone, you know, everyone's

made differently. You know, my brothers are made

differently to me, and we're, you know, cut from

the same cloth. I see this, you know, I do. It's a

strange one. I don't even know if this makes

sense, but I care for my mom, yes, because I love

her. But I do this for Jesus. It isn't easy and m.

It's very, very hard, to navigate that. And you

know, being a husband and a father to a young

daughter and having the full syndrome, it is

difficult. But I know he's got my back and I know

how diff. I know how difficult it is with my

caring duties, but I, to me, it's a responsibility

that he's given me. He's given me this. I can't, I

just can't not do it. So I have to. When I, when

I'm in moments of clarity with him, I see it as a

privilege. and I, you know, when I get to my

mum's, I always go upstairs and say a prayer first

that I get given the patience, of that day. And I,

when I then go and say another prayer when I,

before I leave, I sort of hope that I've done my

best because sometimes you, you know, you do get a

bit, you know, sad or angry or confused and you

just do your best. But again, he, he's, he's at

the forefront actually. Going back to what you

said before, from when I didn't have the dialogue

or when I didn't engage. He was not always at, ah,

the forefront of my mind. It's that whole thing

when people say how you have kids or, or like,

actually I said this, my wife said this to me

before. If you're used to maybe not being in a

relationship and then you suddenly with someone,

rather than saying, oh, you're going out tonight,

you're like, oh, I've got to cheque with Susan.

That's not my wife's name, but I'm just choosing a

random name. when you don't. Didn't have to do

that before and when you've got a child it's

different again. You know, you have. But. And I

equate that back everything I do. And this is why

sometimes you feel bad. because I should do it

better. Jesus is in my head. If we want to be

cliched here, Catholic guilt. is that when Jesus

in your head and when you try and put him at the

front of everything, you're not always the best

person you want to be. Sometimes, certainly when

I'm in a car, I am not. And I tried this much to

my wife's happiness that I did this few times

because she sits in the back with my daughter. And

the only time I can calm down in a car is when I

imagine Jesus is in the passenger seat because

then I can't say the words that I normally say

when I'm in a car. So so yeah, he's. He's at the

forefront now. That's how I deal with being busy.

Because sometimes you. And it's okay to just want

to cry because you're just so tired or so busy.

But he said.

Julia: So talking of going back and looking back, what

would you tell 20 year old Massimo about your

experience of faith or your commitment to faith?

Massimo: Now, short version. Get there faster, dude, you've

got to get there faster because nothing. You know,

life isn't easy, right? This is, this is what

again, some people on faith journeys or just any

kind of spiritual or any kind of journey sort of

understand or don't. Is that just because you've

got something in your life? You know, I've always

wanted to be a father. That's mean. Every single

day has been a walk in the park. It's not. But

with Jesus in your life, since he's been in my

life, the heart I've had to handle. It's funny, I

look back at the hard things I had to handle in

life that were nowhere near the as tough as the

ones I've got. And they felt harder because I

didn't have him.

Julia: Yeah.

Massimo: Than down the line and facing gigantic ones

knowing I've got him. So I would say to that 20

year old, do what you do but get there faster with

him.

Julia: And what about going to weekly mass now?

Massimo: Oh, I can't. It's that. It's that weird, isn't it

strange? I, I cannot not imagine doing that. And

in fact to that point where we went on holiday

just down to Norfolk I think was. And I will look

for the nearest church so I can go to Mass. So I

cannot. Not the thought of going on a Sunday, not

going, that is. I, just can't. And then, of

course, you've got your days of obligation, which,

again, barring unforeseen things like illness or

anything else, I will be going then. So now it's

so built into my life, I can't think of not doing

it.

Julia: I was thinking about, how it's quite natural that

we have these different stages of faith and we get

to different levels naturally. I don't know if

you've heard of James Fowler. He has like, seven

stages of faith. And it's like, we start off quite

young with having this, like, very much the faith

is built on what our parents say, like what we're

taught in our culture. But as, we get older, we

have to accept that faith for ourselves. And it

sounds like that's very much the journey you've

been on.

Massimo: Definitely. And, it's. It's a curious stage. Now,

with my daughter, obviously, she's only three.

and, you know, my wife and I are from very

different faith backgrounds. You know, she is

spiritual. she believes in a divine thing, but

more so, you know, in a broad spirituality sense,

not a Christian sense. So, you know, in our house

you do have faith objects, you know, and icons and

everything else. And my. My daughter will ask me,

and, you know, I thank Jesus that, my wife was

happy for us to have our daughter baptised,

because that was so important to me, but also,

like, just to share one experience. And, you know,

I've. I've got a feeling I know who that was, but

I'm gonna leave it to anyone listening. when we

were in at that holiday, on the way back, we

stopped at, the cathedral. Catholic cathedral.

Right. That was part of the. The deal. And we were

walking around and my daughter was there because

this is what we do at home. And she was like,

papa, who's that? And I was like, oh, that's St.

Joseph. Oh, and who is he? And then it's a Papa,

who's that? Oh, that's Mary. And. And then what

I'd do, she'd see me do it. I'd touch the saying

and then do the sign of the cross. And I'd lift

her up and she'd want to do it. And we went around

the whole church. And then this lady came up to me

almost out of nowhere. She was like a hoodie on,

probably in her late 30s. And she said to me, can

I. She goes, can I just say thank you? And I was

like that's not normally someone doesn't come up

to you and say, can I say thank you? They will ask

you. And I said, oh, yeah. She goes, just seeing

what you're doing with your daughter, she goes,

that brought me so much happiness. Thank you,

thank you for doing that. And it was a very

strange and beautiful experience. And again I

looked around and she'd gone and you know, I have

my thoughts of who that was. and that spiritual

experience I had then, it was just, it, it brought

me closer again. It brought my daughter into it as

well. But yeah, I agree. I think my, my journey

has

Julia: moved

Massimo: and actually it's become, when you come to it

yourself, as opposed cajoled into it, it's even,

it's even deeper, you know. Yeah.

Julia: So what do you wish you knew about intentional

faith versus cultural faith?

Massimo: For me it's a bit sort of covering what we've said

before. It's a bit different. because although

it's what I was cradle Catholic, Italian, you just

used to it culturally, you know, whenever we went

to a communion or you know, whenever it was m a,

Christmas, you'd go to midnight mass. So yes, it

was just something we did along with that. But the

reason why it's subtle in terms of how I answer

this is because even back then, whilst I didn't

know as much, I think twofold. One, because I went

through that process because I always, I still

remember my communion classes, right. And you know

what I learned there, as much as it was cultural

and I still felt really within me. I can still

feel it. Like I've got pictures of me at my

confirmation, for example, the bishop in front of

me, I felt that connection with, with the Lord. I,

you know, it felt it did. Although it was

definitely cultural because you know, you're

Italian and you just wherever. Like even the roads

where my dad, God rest his soul, lives in Italy

are named after saints, right. He lives on Santa

Lucia, which is St. Lucy, and then Santo Miguel is

the other road, which is St. Michael, you know, so

it is cultural, but it's, it's that strange

feeling that I, I, I may have been distant because

I didn't go to church as much, but if someone

asked me, it wasn't just, oh, I'm Catholic, I am,

I am, I am Catholic. It was properly, I would say

the only difference between now and this goes Back

to your 20 year old me question is, wow, do you

get much more of it, when you engage, when you

have grown that closeness, do you engage? You

know, and I was too busy doing other stuff. But

then back. That's why I wish I could go back and

tell that person that all the other stuff I was

doing. It would have been even richer if I had him

with me. But I. I never had a separation. I just

knew more as I've got older, and therefore I feel

closer to him than I ever have done. But even back

then, I. I didn't ever say. I didn't ever ask. I

was like, I didn't ever have a disconnect. I

didn't have that disconnect. Even when I was at my

furthest point, I didn't have a disconnect. I was.

There was no point. Unlike other people I know, in

my family, I never had a point of thinking, does m

God exist? Should I maybe try? You know, I never

had that.

Julia: So what are you grateful for?

Massimo: I've tried to pride myself on saying short

versions because, you know, I. I talk. That's a

hard one to. Am I allowed to pick more than one

thing?

Julia: Yeah, absolutely.

Massimo: All right, great. Okay. So you said it in a way

that was like, just one thing. okay, so in no

particular order, but sort of. I'm grateful that

even though the last decade has been just the

hardest of my life, I am grateful for it leading

me to being the closest I've ever been with the

Lord. My love for him is. You know, it's that

whole thing that it could literally make you feel

like you want to burst. So I'm grateful that he's

in my life, and always in my life. I'm grateful

that following on from that, he's given me what I

deem as the biggest miracle on earth. And that's

my daughter. You know, being a father is

everything I wanted to be. And I have an

incredible wife, and I'm very grateful for that.

Who together with my daughter is my life. and I

couldn't have any of that. You don't have a life

unless you have Christ in it, you know, So I am

grateful for that. And I am grateful for the

privilege of being able to care for my mum as she

gets older. You know, there are people in life who

haven't been able to do that. You know, people

have lost their parents a lot younger. And, And

lastly, I, You know, this isn't just me trying to

secure my job future, in case my boss is

listening. but I love my job. I. I'm grateful for

it because, you know, I've had jobs that I haven't

necessarily been grateful for and, and jobs.

People are at them every day. You know, people are

with people they work with more sometimes than

with their families. So if you don't like it, it's

very difficult. And, you know, my prayers go out

to people who are struggling in. In that way. You

know, it's taken me a long time, but I feel also

fulfilled in my job and I'm very grateful for

that.

Julia: Thank you for joining us.

Massimo: Thanks for having me.

Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

of Massimo's passion for Jesus and his faith is so

inspiring. How about you? We'd love to hear how

Massimo's story resonates with you. And why not

also tell us if you're facing an experience you

wish you knew how to look at differently. It might

just be something we can help with. You can find

out more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.