Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, I wanted to share this podcast. I was recently interviewed by Bruno Artis, the strategic and content lead at Incar are amazing sponsors and he took me through a number of questions around the founder's journey, scaling up, getting to exit, what we can do from a marketing perspective, what I'd do if I was starting my business. Again, ways to gear up PPC, meta, et cetera, and I really enjoyed it. So I wanted to share this interview with you guys so that you can hopefully take something from it. Hey, it's Oliver Bruce and welcome to the Unlock. Previously known as Success is in the Mind. I'm a UK entrepreneur, angel investor, a neurodivergent founder, and I recently exited my first business, which I scaled from my university halls into a multimillion dollar agency with no backing, no funding, just grit, mistakes and determination. I want to pass on some of the lessons that I've learned, the barriers that I had to overcome and the challenges that I'm still coming up against today. This podcast doesn't grow by itself, it grows with you. If you could possibly share this with friends, family, colleagues, anybody you're in business with, somebody that you think might find this useful, I would be greatly appreciative. Anyway, let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Where are you at in your journey right now? I've heard there's been some exciting news recently.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, cool. So I guess six months ago, if you will give or take, late 2025, I sold my first business, which I founded from nothing. So founded it with zero capital, zero backing completely organically, and then scaled it and exited it on the 23rd of December, actually 2025 specifically I remember very well, sold that into a larger agency group, which is really exciting. That's the first proper exit other than investments that I've made that I've actually managed to take from nothing to something. So over the last, I guess 10 years or so, I've scaled a business, I've bought a business, I've invested in businesses, I've raised money for businesses. So I feel like I've now kind of got those four key pillars that I think a lot of entrepreneurs need to know, what they now need to do, what they want to do on the journey next time, what they did wrong on the historical journey for instance, and how to do things differently when they pick up that battle and carry on with whatever they decide to do next.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Right, and that business was Pinpoint Media, right?

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Indeed it was. So Pinpoint Media was the agency that I started way back at the university with literally just a camera, a laptop. I went out and shot content for clients. This was as video content was sort of starting to become a thing. People kind of wanted to put videos on their website but didn't really know what the purpose was, so they put them on YouTube and kind of hoped for the best. So we were producing high volume creative at the time, three or four pieces of content across the course of a day, year three of university. I graduated with two members of staff in an office and then I kind of grew the agency from there to something so much more than just video production. It was actually search, social, creative, media buying as well. So that was kind of our core pillars as an agency and now we've plugged into this larger agency group.

(02:55):
We kind of offer everything turnkey solutions from PR through to influencer, experiential and creative as well. So now we kind do do everything, but when I scaled the agency, I was really hyperfocused on search, social, creative, and those were kind of our areas. So that was the first kind of thing that I'd done, I guess, and taken from nothing to something that was pinpoint media. And then in around that there were other sort of journeys that I went on with other founders with my own podcast series irons in lots of fires. Some have worked Bruno, some haven't worked.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Right. So take me back to that uni dorm room. What spurred on the initial thoughts to jump into entrepreneurship? Obviously it feels high risk if you're, especially at university, everything's kind of nudging you towards a more traditional path. What made you decide to start on that journey?

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, so I guess let's dial it back maybe pre university. So at school I went to seven different schools, so I went to a lot of different schools across the globe. Parents were in the military, you see. So never really stayed consistent in one specific area, which meant there was obviously a lot of change meant for my personal life with friendship groups, whatever that might be. Found out later on when I was sort of 13, 14, that I was also dyslexic and dyspraxic, which added that level of colour neurodiversity to my education career, which therefore meant that actually I just didn't see eye to eye with academia or maybe even the education system as a whole. That was an issue to a certain extent because then my teachers, we were kind of the sort of mindset that maybe I wasn't going to do that well at school.

(04:24):
Maybe I wasn't going to get my GCSEs, maybe I wasn't going to go to college, let alone university. And they were right. My GCSEs were poor, very, very poor. But I went to a college and I did a B Tech in media, which I really enjoyed and that was kind of the first point in I guess my education career where I learned that I actually, sorry, enjoyed learning, if you will. So I did something that I wanted to do and that was media, that was content, that was video. The reason for that is I wanted to be a television presenter, so I wanted to go into television. I wanted to do something in the kind of creative space. It just so happened that at the time Twitter was around and I posted a tweet saying Any business is locally that wants a video content, let me know.

(05:05):
I'm a student at the local college. So some people pinged me back and were like, that's interesting. I'd like you to come and make a video for me. I remember it very well. Did a video for a local gym. It was 50 quid, went down, shot a piece of content, and actually it's still on YouTube today. I was doing some stuff on YouTube this morning and I was just looking through what comes up if you type my name in, because we're trying to put together those shorts and this video still ranks this video still ranks, believe it or not. So 15 years on, there was a video that I made back in the day at college on YouTube. That was when I decided actually doing something that wasn't being employed or wasn't necessarily the norm was quite exciting. So kind of past that went through college.

(05:44):
Then I went on to university because I graduated with a BT tech distinction in media. Got into university At that point I started to actually a build friendship groups more sustainably because I was in and around the local area for a longer period of time, rather than moving around a lot with my parents in the military. And also kind of realising, understood that I really enjoyed this kind of creative industry and I wanted to do more around that. Made a bit of money, 50, 60, a hundred quid from doing pieces of content for friends and for businesses. Let's do more of this. So we mined data. We used to copy and paste people's email addresses from websites way before GDPR was even a thing, and we would mass mail them. So we'd send them an email saying, would you like to buy a piece of video content?

(06:27):
We'll do three pieces of content across the course of the day for a hundred pounds each. So that's 300 pounds for the business, 300 pounds. To me, there were no overheads apart from a university camera, which I would borrow, and then obviously something to edit the content on. So that was how we started it and we sold tonnes of this. I think we did 86,000 quid in our first year. Bearing in mind this was still whilst I was at university. So that's why I had to then graduate university with two members of staff in an office because I couldn't have carried it on through university, just myself. I wanted to leave uni, but I wasn't allowed to leave uni. My parents were very much of the ilk that I needed to graduate. I couldn't drop out. So that's really the only reason that I did carry on at university was because I wasn't allowed to leave, but every part of me wanted to jump ship. So when I did leave, we started the business to really at that point properly, it was less of a lifestyle business. It was more of a, okay, how can we take it to the next level? That's when I bought in a business partner. That's when I bought in other people to advise and guide, and that's where it started to become more of a going concern

Speaker 2 (07:27):
From college to university. You were already getting those entrepreneurial reflexes and then it sounds like it grew quite organically with your social life and as your life bloomed, so did your business.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, well literally, I mean, I didn't have much social life to be honest with you, but yeah, very, very, very organic Bruno. So as I said, we never raised any capital at all. We reinvested everything. I had a student loan at university, so I didn't need to take any money out of the business myself. So I reinvested a lot of that. Right. You mentioned earlier that it's risky started a company and a hundred percent it is risky, but it depends on at what point in your life you are at. So for me, at university I had nothing to lose apart from time. I had a student loan, which covered my overheads. Anything I made could be put back into that company. I didn't know how to raise money. I didn't even know you could raise money when I was at university. Maybe had I known that I'd have done it slightly differently, but everything that I did was just because I wanted to do it.

(08:23):
I might've been naive. It was just passion. The passion was massive and that was really what kind of got me to, I guess the first couple of years got us through the first couple of years was just that level of I'm just going to crack on. I'm just going to do, I love doing what I'm doing. I had no idea what a shareholders' agreement was. I always had no idea what shares were, and there's things that happened throughout the business over the course of three to five years whereby I should have known what that was, but because I didn't, it caused issues down the line. So tonnes of lessons that I learned in the first five years, I'm still learning lessons now. It's just the businesses are a lot more mature and we happen to have exited it because it was set up sustainably and properly, but it took a decade to get there.

(09:02):
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Speaker 2 (09:59):
A big part of our audience will also be people that are already more developed in their business that are already reaching, and so I'm curious, what would be maybe three key lessons that you found that helped you a lot from conception to exit?

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, so in the early stages, make sure that you've got all your paperwork tight, no matter if you're raising money or you're just starting it organically with a mate sort of thing. Make sure you have shareholders agreements, make sure you have founders agreements, whatever it might be. Make sure there is paperwork in place to allow you guys if there is ever an argument or if you are going to raise money or you are going to sell the business to fall back on and go, actually, what does this structure look like? That's sort of rule 1 0 1 for me. Let's be clear, when I started in business, I didn't have the money to instruct a lawyer to do anything, right? I didn't know what I needed to do to instruct a lawyer. Now there's ai. So you can go onto any artificial intelligence platform out there, claws chat, GPC, perplexity, whatever it might be, and you will be able to build what you need to from a top line perspective pretty well.

(10:58):
You'll be able to quiz it, you'll be able to ask it questions, you'll be able to learn and be able to absorb far more than I ever could when I started. Yes, if you can afford it, get a lawyer to do it, it will just be better. But if you are doing it hand to mouth, it's sort of very much a startup and you're not necessarily putting 110% of your efforts into there, then actually just having a Y in contract would be okay for a starter. Obviously, I would always advise someone to get a lawyer and do it if they can, but today you can probably get away with doing just a quick wireframe back of the fag packet because having something is better than not having anything at all, right? So if you haven't got the capital, don't let that detract from the fact that you can't start a business.

(11:37):
You still can and you still can put contracts in place. They might not just be to the level that a proper legal firm would do, but always just try and put pen to paper. That's the one thing I would say number two and three, I guess Bruno would very much be to put a plan in place place but to also allow you to delegate to others. So you are not going to know everything. You're going to have to absorb information from a lot of people, and you're not always going to know how to execute that information, right? It might not be your forte. So finance, hr, sales, recruitment, just being a CEO, generally, chances are as a sole founder, individual founder, scale up founder, you're doing a lot of that day to day, but you need to know when to pass a lot of that stuff off because actually passing the stuff off to somebody else that's better than you will allow you to scale and to grow that business far quicker.

(12:23):
It was a lesson that took me five or six years to actually properly learn, and I took a long time thereafter to actually properly get it right. Delegation is hard. Learning is people think quite easy, but actually you need to take information. Then you need to do something with that information. You can't just take on that information, go great call. I know that information and try and execute on it yourself. The reality is you can't do everything. You're going to have to pass that stuff off. So some of the best leaders are those that say no. They will take in information, they'll understand to a certain extent, but they'll go, actually, I can't do that, or I don't understand that I need to go and hire somebody who does get that or who has the capacity to do that for me. For instance, HR is not my forte, so I will always have someone in the business that can do hr.

(13:04):
Similarly, finance is not something that I enjoy, so I always have somebody in the business that can do finance. In fact, if I was to start a business again, the first hire that I would take on would be somebody in finance because they will put the cashflow forecast together. They'll put the relevant kind of metrics in place to show you that your business is either working or not working in a far more advanced way than how you as a founder will do it because you as a founder will always look for the upside. You'll go, oh, but it'll be okay. Oh, but we'll get through this or we'll get there in time. But a finance individual will always look at the worst case scenario. So you'll plan for the worst, and the reality is it will be okay, but because you plan for the worst, you are even better off than if you were just aspirationally going, oh, it'll be fine. But having that 11 of naivety, I guess brewing your own business is really important as well when starting out. Because if you're not naive, you're going to be too scared to do stuff and fear will stop people from actually starting a business and that's not where you want to be either.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, it's interesting. I actually was just hearing Tony Robbins talk about the difference between being an operator, which is how you'll get to a position where you have a business and then actually becoming an owner, which is that the moment where you understand that you're never going to be able to scale unless you're willing to let go of that control of doing everything. I feel like that's a really difficult, when do you think the time is right to hire? How early should you hire?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
How early should you hire? You should hire as soon as you don't know the area or the department that you are trying to grow. And maybe that's a little bit too vague, so let's break it down. As a founder, you are doing everything, literally doing everything, but where is your time most valuable as a founder? It's either going to be raising capital, 50% of the founder's time when they're raising money is put into capital injection. So half of your time you'll be putting into raising money, which therefore where are you going to put the hr? Where are you going to put the finance? Where are you going to put the sales? Where are you going to put the actual running of the company? There's no way that you can get that into the remaining 50% of time. So you just need to break out where your key focal points need to be, and that will be different to many founders.

(15:12):
As a founder that grew a business organically, I wasn't raising money, but I was selling a shed load of stuff, so I was spending probably 50% of my time selling, but I wasn't looking after, let's say the recruitment or the HR side of things. A, I didn't enjoy it, B, just because I didn't have time. So that was the first thing that I'd pass off similarly with the finance, the first thing or the second thing that I'd pass off in that instance. So there's no right or wrong time to hire Bruno, but you need to just understand where your time as a founder the most valuable time, and you will move the dub and most as a founder, because you have the passion, you have the want, you have the risk, you have that kind of tenacity that you just can't hire. So what do you want to do? Where's your time most valuable? And then focus on that and then pass the rest off.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
And then I guess if we bring us closer to the context that you're in now, what is the most recent lesson that you learned that was really helpful to you?

Speaker 1 (16:10):
The most recent lesson that I learned that was most helpful to me to listen to listen, period. And it's something that individuals that have got a DHD or just generally are neurodiverse find super difficult, or at least I find super difficult. Sometimes even neurotypical individuals sometimes find listening hard, but actually listening would be such a superpower if you just shut up and you just listen, you don't have to agree or disagree with it, just take it on board. Let's talk what the other individual has to say and then speak. Things will happen in a far more enjoyable way than having this kind of your way or the highway back and forth speaking over each other. It becomes a little bit intense and an entrepreneur found as individuals have such passion that they're sitting in a room and they're riffing and they're chatting and they're talking over each other and they're chucking stuff at the wall, but actually take advice from the outside, listen to those individuals, absorb it.

(16:59):
You don't have to fundamentally do it, but it's very good to understand another person's perspective. People won't listen necessarily to AI agents or chat GBT or Claude, but they will consult it. It's the same principle as an NED or a board of directors or whatever it might be. Advisors, you don't necessarily have to implement it, but you should listen to it, you should consult it, you should ask it questions. You should treat it as something that is there to make your life easier. You just don't know everything. You never will know everything. The most intelligent, the best, the biggest, the brightest brains in the world don't know everything. They know a lot, but they don't know everything. And you can't build a business without a team of people. You just can't. I mean, yes, there'll be AI businesses in the future that might scale to a certain level, a billion dollars, let's say, just through building out AI agents. But I can promise you there'll be advisors and there'll be individuals around those businesses that are guiding and speaking to the founder. It just might appear on paper that that business has grown to a billion with one individual, but there'll be accountants and finance people and other things around the periphery that are helping them.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, it's an interesting balance, right? Because listening is such a superpower, like you say. But then I feel like as a founder, and I'm curious to hear your perspective on this, should you stop listening? When should you not take people's, when is too many opinions? How do you know whether to listen to new opinions or not listen to new opinions?

Speaker 1 (18:32):
So founders will always only have a finite or a certain amount of data to be able to make a decision on. They're never going to have all the information, and they are programmed in a way to go, well, 40%, 50% of the information is enough information for me to go left or to go right? So in terms of when not to listen, there isn't necessarily a point in time where you go, I'm not going to listen to that. You have to make a judgement as an individual as to if that is the right or the wrong decision, basically. So you might have everybody that you're listening to might say the same thing, but you still might think you need to go the opposite direction. That's okay, you've made that decision. As long as there aren't pieces of paper in the way to say that actually you are bored when they vote, you have to follow them, and you have the ability to overrule and to go the direction that you want to go to or go down, that is absolutely fine. So we as founders will be given information and be given data and be spoken to, but will never have a hundred percent of the information. It'll never be factually correct a hundred percent of the time either. So you just have to make a judgement , take a stance and go for it.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah. There's this saying that I really like, and if you want to make the wrong decision, ask everyone. And obviously there is some truth to that, but at the same time, I completely agree that there's nothing more powerful than the beginner's mindset as well, especially to find those opportunities. The naive mind, can we hear over and over again of people jumping into a new sector that they know nothing about and revolutionising it because they know nothing about it?

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've seen it time and time again, even when you are, we've got over a hundred staff now in the organisation, and it's very different to when we had five or 10 people. But yet if you look at it, you can still strip out processes and you can still operate quicker, and you can still run it like a startup or a scale up business because you just need to question things. Okay. Musk says it very well. He goes, if you're not adding processes back in, you haven't taken enough out. And I think that is really important from a founder scale up mentality. It's strip everything away, make it as efficient and as simple as possible. And if you have to add in a meeting because you've taken too many meetings out, then that's fine. But don't put meetings in for meeting's sake.

(20:43):
Don't put processes in for process sake. And it's something that we're doing now. We're a hundred hundred plus in terms of headcounts. We are looking at how we can make it more efficient. We are trying to treat it as a sort of scale up organisation where actually you crack on and do what you need to do. There aren't checks and balances like they used to be, for instance, or people assume there should be, yes, fine there are from a governance perspective because your auditors, but they don't have to be from a throughput marketing perspective. You don't have to get it checked with four or five people, just get it done, if that

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Makes sense.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
And that I think is a mentality piece that founders can bring to organisations. Whereas you look at big organisations that have got a thousand staff plus, they're very, very corporate, they're often run by career individuals. There's very little founder innovation in that sense. But then you look at the organisations that get to that scale that are driven by a founder, and they are still stripping things out. Tesla, SpaceX, two prime examples, their processes are almost non-existent because they are stripping them out consistently.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah. So I guess if we bring that more directly to performance marketing agencies in general, which I think for the next part, some of our audience are going to be in agencies as well. So I'm very curious to get more into the nitty gritty of it. Where do you think performance marketing is right now as a kind of discipline, and what are some of the mistakes that you see agencies doing or people doing with their marketing?

Speaker 1 (22:10):
So in terms of, let's take the people piece. So brands that are instructing agencies. So what are the mistakes that they're making? Well, they are, yes, fine. They're thinking that actually they can do a lot of it through ai. And granted, you can do a lot of stuff through ai, but can you do it to the same level that actually an agency can offer you? Well, probably not, right? Yeah, fine. You might be able to do it cheaper. You might get something out and it might be okay, but the reality is it might not be future proof, for instance. So what does an agency offer these individuals? Well, agencies, yeah, we'll use ai. They will, and if they're not, they really should do, but they will have certain checks and balances in place to make sure that actually the AI isn't hallucinating. The AI isn't giving away data, it's not putting the wrong information.

(22:52):
It's not spending money inefficiently, it's not putting capital into the wrong places, which actually as an individual in a brand that just wants to cut costs will probably also cut corners as well. So a lot of it is listen to what the agency is saying, yes, fine. There'll be some efficiencies that AI will bring to brand and bring to agencies, but actually don't try and pay less because you think AI is commoditizing the industry and allowing agencies to do more with less, actually pay the going rate. Because the reality of it is there'll still be humans at the other end that will be controlling these AI agents or be controlling these platforms or be controlling the creative because they have to get it to the right level because the AI isn't there yet, right? Because from a creative perspective, yes, you can prompt something, and yes, you can have an asset that looks pretty damn good, but actually it will over time.

(23:40):
If you keep asking it to iterate, it will probably change. It might look a little bit different each time. You might have to download it, then upload it into Photoshop, and then actually at that point, it doesn't even come with layers. So a human has to actually create the piece of creative again, but uses AI for the inspiration. So I think there's this kind of misconception or sort of lack of understanding from brands when working with agencies that actually now AI is such a prominent tool. Agencies can do what they used to do with 10 staff with one person. Now the reality is in time probably that will be the case, but those other people will be probably controlling the AI to get the outcome that they need to get rather than what they're doing at the moment, which is bugging stuff in at brand level and hoping for the best, and then tweaking, changing and going, actually that hasn't worked.

(24:27):
Can you pick it up and polish a turd? So it's a little bit confusing. So if I had to summarise where it is at the moment, agency and brand world, it is confusing. There are bigger agencies, WPP monks, et cetera, that are going for the business, that agencies that our size would normally be going for, and then there's medium to larger agencies that are going for the stuff that conglomerates used to go for. So it's really confusing out there. There's no kind of clarity as to, okay, those organisations, those whole codes are going for the big 30, 40, 50 million accounts. And actually everybody below that's going for everything below that value. It's really dog eat dog out there right now, and people are moving around a lot. Holdcos are getting rid of that big kind of conglomerate look and very much going into that sort of more agile space. So it's exciting, but it's very, very messy.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
And one of the things I like about AI right now is lazy is still lazy. People trying to cut corners of ai, it doesn't float. We're seeing a lot of humans are pattern recognising creatures, so we're noticing it, AI patterns all over. Now people can sync their brand by being too liberal with their use of ai. And I feel like, so the same can go for agencies, right? Agencies trying to scale too quickly using ai. It's not going to age well because yeah, the tools will continue to evolve, but we are so far away from being able to lean back and just let the AI do the work. And so I'm curious about the, we'll get the

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Library in time. These agents are getting more and more intelligent, and it's just how

Speaker 2 (26:07):
You

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Build them and how you use them is the

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Apps.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
There will be individuals in agencies that get patched into businesses as prompt engineers rather than as a graphic designer. So they'll go into a VW for instance, and they will be a prompt engineer build out to build stuff that will allow VW to get the output that they require rather than VW going, okay, I'd like a team of graphic designers to produce the next VW ad.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
There's

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Going to be a huge change. Agents will become a massive part of agency life, but a lot of the typical graphic designer or animator or copywriter roles will very much change into the prompt engineer, the hybrid role where they can do two or three different specialties rather than just focusing on one area.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah. And so your pinpoint media's motto is data led in human driven, right? Can you correct me?

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Close data-driven human inspires,

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Data-driven, human inspired. Can you say how that's going to play into this next era with ai? How is the data side going to play and how's the human side going to play?

Speaker 1 (27:18):
So agents, AI typically can't think empathetically, right? So they have no emotion as it stands, so they don't understand necessarily what it feels like to us to be loved or to be heard or to find something funny. They can't do that, but they can analyse, aggregate, and work with data very, very well. So our strategy or our tagline, if you will, data-driven human inspired is very much that kind of synergy between running with data, running with agents, running with autonomy, but having that human interpretation to go, actually, I get that this campaign ticks X, Y, and Z box, but actually it isn't funny and it should be funny, or it doesn't make me feel warm inside, so therefore it's not going to resonate with the audience that we're trying to target. So that's what we mean by data-driven human inspires. There is a huge amount of data out there, but the agents really have no emotion to be able to interpret that data into something that actually will make you feel some kind of connection.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
And so if we're going into more of the process, your guys' process or pinpoint media's process, what was different about it? How did you guys get data and how did you use it?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, so I mean data is everywhere. Intelligence isn't, right? Let's use that. I mean in terms of how we aggregate or how we get data, we're running client campaigns. So from a meta perspective or performance marketing perspective, we are plugged into a lot of the platforms, a lot of the backend. So we can obviously understand and we can see what is working and what isn't working. It really depends on what the campaign is as to what the type of data that you are trying to pull on or you're trying to reference. You're trying to show how that actually, what that actually means essentially Bruno, because frankly, if it's an awareness campaign, the data is going to be very, very different to this conversion campaign. Similarly, if it's some sort of out-of-home campaign, actually it's going to be different attribution models to actually, if it's something that is a little bit more data focused from LinkedIn perspective, let's just say a sales campaign on navigator.

(29:25):
So how do we get the data? Well, typically it's because we're in the backend of the client accounts. There are a number of other platforms that we'll use. That's normally the way that you'll get data. You can obviously do soft data, which is, let's just say customer surveys. If you're doing a footfall campaign, you might put people in store, for instance. You might go and do boots on the ground, Vox pops, those kinds of things where you see individuals kind of getting UGC on the street. So if you are starting a drinks brand and you're wanting to show that your drink tastes better than somebody else's, you might go and capture some UGC. So user generated content, let's say in Oxford Street, and actually of those hundred people that you've asked, which is better, you'll then be able to get a data point as to actually, oh yeah, my drink is better than this person's drink. Therefore, that is a data point that you can use in the future. So there are ways of aggregating and getting data that aren't necessarily through plugging into a platform, but typically from a performance marketing perspective, you are normally plugged into some source of, if not more than one platform,

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Right? And I guess once you get that data, it's a lot about what you do with it. What are some of the best practises that you can recommend right now? For example, paid media and organic media. I

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Mean, as I said, as I sort of said, data is everywhere. Intelligence, and what we kind of mean by that is, yes, I could go and get a million different data points from a million different platforms out there, but if I'm not intelligent enough to be able to understand and read that data, then I can do nothing with that data. So it's an interesting kind of crossroads in that sense. In terms of organic, let's touch on organic for instance, and it's a live project that we've got at the moment. There's some stuff going on in Miami, they're capturing some content with some influencers. They're going to put that content online, but the client said, can we then boost that content? And logically you'd go, well, yes, we can boost that content because you've shot it. It's with an influencer, it's in Miami, it'll look good.

(31:13):
It might be something that you want to boost. The reality of it is if we boosted everything that was being put online organically, you wouldn't actually have a data point as to what is the best piece of content to boost. So you'd be spreading, let's just say use a thousand pounds as an example. You have a thousand pounds, you have 10 pieces of content, you put a hundred quid into each piece of content, and you'll boost that. But actually, if you put those 10 pieces of content on Instagram or whatever platform, and they're ranking organically within a 24 hour period, and you can see out of those 10 that the top two actually have got more engagement, more comments, more saves, whatever it might be as a metric, you will actually know of those two assets to put probably 500 pounds into each one of those, rather than a thousand pounds spread across all 10.

(31:55):
So the mistake that brand, not necessarily a mistake, but the misconception or the lack of understanding that that brand had was that they wanted to immediately boost their content on Instagram because they thought influencer had done it, it's going to look good. Let's put budget behind it. What they didn't do is take that step back and go, let's just put it online, see what hits, and see what lands well from an organic perspective, and then double down on the ones that are working, which means they're wasting less budget. Because what they're doing is they're putting all the money into the stuff that actually consumers are enjoying organically, which means that it'll pop off from a paid perspective as a really simple example, but that's kind of organic meets performance in a more elegant but low touch perspective. Guys, I think I found something that might be super useful for you and something that we've started using in my businesses.

(32:45):
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Speaker 2 (33:31):
And where would you recommend agency owners and marketing teams? Where would you recommend they look for best practises? Where do you get your information? How do you stay up to date?

Speaker 1 (33:43):
That's a great question. Well, I've got a podcast, Bruno called The Unlock, so they can go over to any platform, any podcast platform, and listen to the unlock where we talk about literally different types of marketing, scale up strategy, founder led stories. Equally, there are lots of other areas

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Linking the description by the way,

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Linking the description text pre equally. There are a tonne of other places that you can go. I mean, not least, there's obviously communities, there's a lot of communities out there, founder communities, marketing communities. There's areas that you can go to from an online GBT perspective, so you can join different types of discord communities or quiz for instance, different types of GPTs. It depends on what you're actually looking for. YouTube's a great platform. Go onto YouTube and type in whatever your question might be, and I'm sure you'll be served as something that is going really deep on that specific issue. We try and go super deep on specific issues on our podcast anyway, from a how do you set up meta ads through to when is the right time, for instance, in this instance, to boost content. And what we'll essentially do then is we'll then follow up with write-ups, deeper information, actionable insights, things that founders and individuals can take away and go, cool, I'm starting a business, or frankly, I'm not starting a business, I'm just closing my series A.

(34:52):
What do I need to do with a million quid from a marketing perspective? How will I make that million pounds into 10 million pounds? Or how will I make that million pounds into something that my investors are happy to see? Be that awareness, consideration, decision, whatever that funnel might be, what does that look like? What's the best split? How do you actually scale? So there's lots of different insights. There's no right or wrong place to go. YouTube is an amazing platform, totally free, amazing platform. As you know, TikTok is also awesome, and a lot of Gen Z are using TikTok at the moment to actually search for stuff. So if you are a business or a brand that has a product that is focused on Gen Z, actually what you might want to be doing is putting content primarily on TikTok, answering questions, writing it or speaking in a way whereby actually if you were to natively search or where do I get this new lip balm from, for instance, it will serve you that content and GEO as well for organisations that are looking to scale up and have a sort of short-term hack.

(35:45):
A bit like when SEO became a thing, geo generative engine optimization, all that really is SEO, but with much longer form questions. So if you think about how you talk to GPTs, for instance, where you are literally going, where do I learn my marketing advice or where do I get my marketing advice from? It's that kind of long form question. So if you've got a brand or a website, have long form questions and answers, build out FAQs at the bottom of your website, have really deep parts of the website with content in where it's broken out in a hierarchical way, so kind of H one, H twos paragraphs, et cetera. But bullet points as well because these gpt like to pull from that. So there's lots of different places you can get your marketing knowledge from. There's also lots of different areas that you can double down on to be able to improve what you're currently doing as a business that are very quick wins.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
And which area do you think is the biggest area of opportunities that businesses are overlooking right now?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Which area is the biggest area of opportunity? So, so generative engine

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Optimization.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
So at the moment, there aren't necessarily adverts on chat g pt. Well, there are in America, they're testing it out in America as we speak. It's March, 2026, but at the moment in the uk, there aren't paid ads on these chat gpt slash clawed platforms. And so actually native people or individuals searching natively in platform are going to trust what gets served to them now more than they will do maybe in the future when you can start to pay to rack higher bit like PPC, right, and Google and search. So when building out a GEO campaign, when building out something on your website, make sure and you can build out A-G-E-O-G-P-T, right? That's the weirdest thing about this stuff. If you go to chat GPC or go to Claude or whatever and do enough research around how to optimise your GEO and build out an agent or A-G-E-O-G-P-T and quiz it on the copy that you're putting into it, it will give you the hierarchy, it'll give you the structure, it'll give you the way to write this copy to then put it onto your website and then rank in theory on these platforms.

(37:44):
What I typically like to do when I'm building out copy for websites in this instance is I will have my geo GB, C, or we've got actually something that we built in the agency that's a little bit more in depth. It's called the fame tracker. What that essentially does is you'll build the copy out, it'll tell you how to write it, where to sort of put on the website, what the hierarchy should look like, but then I go to Hemingway. So if you go to Hemingway, which is a totally free app, and then you choose the age range of the readership. So I kind of go between eight and 10 years old, give or take. It simplifies the language, it makes it feel less ai, because AI typically puts M dashes in there or put Zeds in there, for instance. It'll put words that might not sound specifically like you go over to Hemingway, simplify the language, make it really easy for the GPTs to read, but also humans to read because it's all about being human-centric.

(38:32):
And then put it on your website, you'll have a far better, you'll have a far better uptick. And we as an agency are getting some big brands come to us because they're finding us on chat, GPT, and we always ask them, how did you find us? Where did you get our details? What was the journey like? Because actually if they say, we found you on chat, GPT, or we saw one of your ads, you go, great, we practise what we preach. We're able to do it for us, we can do it for you. And it's a really nice sort of full circle approach.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's really nice. So what do you think is going to happen to SEO and what do you think is going to happen to Google? PPC?

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Google PPC is always going to be there. All these things are going to be there fundamentally. But I do think that obviously with Gemini owned by Google, there will be other areas that Google starts to release to try and keep up with these AI search engines. So I can't remember the last time I went onto Google and actually typed in holiday to wherever or buying whenever the product was because go straight to chat GBT, and if I don't like what I'm served on chat GBT, I'll ask it, find it within this price point, find it within this location, find it within this area, which you just don't really do on Google. You go holidays to wherever and you'll get some stuff and you'll scrub through it and you'll go, well, that will be it then. That's kind of the extent of what I'm looking for. Whereas on chat g, PT or Claude or whatever, you go in, you ask you questions, you talk to it, you spend a bit more time interrogating it, and you'll get a totally different output. So I do think there is this kind of uprising of in the next sort of three to five years, most search will probably be through some sort of ai.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
So if a business is thinking about doubling down an SEO right now, it might not be the best move.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
No, absolutely. Carry on with that because S-E-O-G-E-O, they all go hand in glove, right? I'm not saying don't do any of this stuff. In fact, what I'm saying is do more of the GEO do more of the SEO, because having native, authentic real copy online will only be better when people are asking deep, deep, deep questions on these LLMs, right? When they're asking really deep personal questions that they want the answer to. If you've reams and reams and reams of valuable human inspired and great content on your website, the chances are you'll have a much better ranking when it comes to GEO, right? So don't not do SEO at all. Do both of them just do more, and from a paid perspective paid, you can turn on and off, for instance, but at the moment, carry on with your paid strategy, search, social, creative, whatever that might be.

(40:53):
And as soon as these chat GPT or Claude or whatever it might be, have some level of paid AI search, do that because that will be a market that not a lot of people are doing, or at least if they are doing it, no one really knows how to do it properly. So the chances of you winning will be far greater, far quicker. A bit like TikTok, you used to put a video on TikTok five years ago and you'd get a million views, but now the algorithms changed. There's more people on there. It's harder to get excessive volumes of viewership. You used to be able to do,

(41:22):
Be an early adopter, and getting into these things as quickly as possible is very, very important. And we talk around a lot of that. We are doing a lot of GE at the moment, not for clients, because working it out for ourselves at the moment, I think in the next quarter, then we'll start to commercialise it and put out to clients had a bit of interest. But until we as an agency and me as an individual know exactly how to do something we don't recommend or we don't sell it. So everything that we speak about is because we know for us that it works.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
So let's say a template direct to consumer e-commerce business comes to you. They've got 10 grand to start up their business or 50 grand to start up their business. Where do you point them towards first? Is meta ads still the go-to, or how are you feeling about the landscape right now?

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah. Okay. So what are you saying? It's direct to consumer?

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
What's the price point? I guess it's, let's say it's minimal price point. So let's say five to 20 quid, it will depend on the audience type. So Gen Z millennial will be two different answers, but what I would fundamentally do is I'd go UGC volume, content, organic on Instagram, organic on TikTok, and then go for budget after that. The reason for that is you're going to want to, as I said, see what works, see what resonates, see what is actually performing well jump on trends. That's the cheaper way of doing it. And then frankly, weeks after that, you can then deploy some capital behind paid search and social, right, maybe not paid search in that instance, it's probably paid social to start with and in time, maybe go into Google shopping, for instance. So I typically would say that's the way of doing it. If you were a startup brand, you had 50,000 quid to spend across the course of the year, definitely just start with organic on TikTok and organic on Instagram, then moved into doing paid social, then move into doing paid search, bit of shopping around that. That would be my flow, give or take. And the only time you really want to go into putting money onto a different platform is when you're starting to see a positive return on investment or ROAS or whatever your metric might be

(43:24):
On that specific platform. So double down first or one, see a return, go into another, see a return, then go into another. For instance, there are metrics out there that suggest that until you're making a million per platform, there's no point in going on to another platform. But it really depends on where you are in your business's journey with 50 grand, I would definitely say organic. Then go in on Instagram, you'll make that 50 grand back in time and then go into another platform.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Interesting. So you recommend they start by interrogating the attention economy with organic?

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Putting prs out there with organic content and seeing what message resonates.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
So look at it, right? You've got 50,000 quid. Let's just take five grand of that to one side. You can go and get 20 different UGC creators, right? Each

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Of

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Those UGC micro creators have got a thousand, 3000 followers. That means you've got an audience size that is far greater than your current audience size. Just by posting on your platform, they're going to post it on theirs. You can then take that content, post it on yours. You're hacking the algorithm because you've got that volume going out, and it's not social media anymore. It's interest media. So if people are finding things interesting, they will engage with it as soon as they engage with it, either boost it or put some budget behind it. You've still got 45 grand left, right? Put that 45 grand behind something. Don't put it all behind it, apportion it accordingly. If you've got to last the whole year with that money, then spread it in a way whereby it will last repay perspective for six months, and then the remaining six months you're using for creators, because you'll start to make that back. I promise you, you'll make that back before the end of that six month period.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
You mentioned interest media. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Social media is what it used to be called when everyone was on Facebook and when people were putting things online and being more socialable. But now people don't necessarily use it to keep up to date with what Tom and Ben are doing today at the pub, for instance. People are literally on social media and scrubbing through, and the only way you're going to stop 'em is if your stuff is interesting, right?

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
You're never going to stop it because it's a high production value piece of content, unless that person finds it interesting. So that's why I call it interest media because you are fundamentally trading on somebody's level of interest, right? You're putting stuff out online, you're going, okay, this can of Coke here, right? That is mildly interesting. I'll click on that because of whatever reason, then I'll buy it. Whereas back in the day, it used to be really targeted offers, those kinds of things. More commercial now it's a lot more authentic now it's a lot more interesting. So that's kind why I've started calling it interest media.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Interesting. So there's this balance that I've been wrestling with when thinking about content, and it's the attention hacking versus brand building. Sometimes those are at odds. What do you consider successful organic content? What metrics are you looking at to see if this was a success or not?

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Depends massively on what you are as a business. So it is very different to a podcast to if you're selling a course to if you're selling a product, it could literally be, if you're on a podcast, how many people have saved that short on

Speaker 2 (46:29):
TikTok

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Or on YouTube or on Instagram? How many people have gone, yeah, I'm going to save that down. Actually, that is really interesting content that was pertinent and that resonated with me. Versus if you are doing a UGC campaign for somebody in that's selling perfume, right? You'd want to then have a look at actually how many people have either shared that piece of content or have gone from that piece of content through to your website. So the metrics would be very, very different. And it's not necessarily a broad brush trick for every single business, and you have to understand what you as a business need to achieve, or sorry, need to see to be able to say that that is a success, right? So from a paid perspective, the chances are most people, again, I want to see a pound in and five pounds out, right? Give or

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Take.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
It'll be a little bit more than that potentially. Not many people are happy with just doing an awareness campaign, but you might get people who have been funded, who are happy to do an awareness campaign for 25 or 30% of the budget, and the rest actually is a conversion campaign, right? In which case there were two different campaigns there. The awareness campaign ain't going to get many conversions, but it's going to get millions of eyeballs. Okay, so are you then looking at a through play metric where you're going, actually people have watched 80% of the video, or are you looking at it in a different metric? What is that metric that you need to look at based on what that campaign is? So when you understand what your business is and what product you're selling and what audience you're targeting, at the back of that, you'll then be able to understand what metrics you need to look at.

(47:47):
And it's really difficult just to give a broad brush stroke typically, but from an organic perspective, yep. You're looking at things that will essentially tell the algorithm your content is good, which typically are comments within a period of time, and then saving the piece of content. Those are the two of the strongest ones. The likes help, but comments and saving that piece of content really push the algorithm in terms that's TikTok for instance. That could be on Instagram, that could be on LinkedIn, right? On LinkedIn, it has that window whereby if you have a number of comments and you have a number of likes within a period of time you'll get served to more people than if you don't.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
So

Speaker 1 (48:19):
It's understanding those little things basically, and again, that's organic from a performance perspective. It's understanding exactly what you want as the outcome. Do you want money? Do you want awareness? Do you want followers? Are you doing a follower campaign? In which case you're going to want to have followers off the back of what you're putting the budget into.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
We've mentioned the backend. Yeah. Do you have any tips for people that are running paid media campaigns in terms of their financial backend? How do they know when to start or stop an ad? When is it too early? When is it too late?

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah. Okay. So most people turn ads off too early, right? Because as a founder, let's talk to the founders here because individuals will go, actually I've put five grand in across the course of a week and I haven't seen that return. Shit, I'm going to turn it off. The reality of it is you need to put a specific amount of budget into these ads to be able to allow the algorithm to actually serve it to the right people. So just because you put five grand into it across the course of the week doesn't necessarily mean that it's actually performed as well as it should have done. Maybe you should change the budget parameters, maybe you should change the actual timeframe or time horizon, if you will. So for us, we run typically campaigns for four to six weeks before we really make any call from us as an agency. We're running our own ads,

Speaker 2 (49:36):
And

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Typically what we'd do is we'd have a winning ad set and would have a learning ad set. So the reason we do that is because with the Andro update, it likes volume, but it also likes uniqueness. So it likes things to be different. If we have an ad set with everything in there, it will typically, yes, it might serve some budget to some of the creative, but it will always probably pivot to the creative that is typically working well, which means you are somewhat cannibalising the testing mechanism, even though anter likes a lot of content, even though putting the variables in there is a good thing. If it has something that is generating three or four roas, right? Let's just say for whatever you're putting live, it's probably going to hero that. So we split it out, we put it into a separate ad set, we go, that is our winning ad set, right?

(50:21):
That is what we're going to put 60, 70, 80% of our budget into. We're then going to put volume content into our learning ad set which is going to serve, and it's going to say, yes, this works. No, it doesn't work. And it's going to naturally find what the right piece of content is. Okay? And this is a really rudimentary way of explaining it, so sorry for those that do understand it in more detail, but it will understand essentially in basic terms what piece of creative is working best with the audience. As soon as you know that and as soon as you see consistency, take that ad, put it into your winning ad set so that it's not cannibalising the learning phase and do again, but take from the winning ads, what is working and recreate content for the learning ad sets with that knowledge.

(51:01):
So it might be a hook, it might be copy, it might be colour, it might be positioning, it might be literally anything. Try and understand why those ads are winning, why they are being served to more people and why they're using more of the budget and getting you a better return. Recreate it, produce more of them, put them into your learning ad sets and keep doing that. And in time you will have a winning ad set of 30, 40, 50, 60 creatives and you'll be increasing your budget incrementally because you'll be seeing a return. So much so that actually you'll have this sort of turnkey engine that is just producing good content that you can pretty much bet going to work unless you release a new product or unless there's an algorithm change or unless there's just an update that's totally different to how we're currently running things.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
It's interesting, I think you are talking about something that I think especially larger companies really need to hear, which is the value of experimentation on popular organic side and the paid side. And it's very tempting, especially when you have a lot to lose. It's very tempting to kind of over tinker, over tinker while the most fast moving brands or the brands that are willing to kind of act like scale-ups are the ones that are putting the most volume out there and experimenting the most aggressively. And it's interesting, and I'm conscious of your time, but do you believe that the future is volume and kind of hyper-personalization?

Speaker 1 (52:31):
Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, look, we started over a decade ago with volume content and I can't make that clear enough. We started way before volume content was a thing. We were doing videos that were a minute long, but we were doing three or four of these videos for a client across the course of a day. Volume is the way the world is going, but it is a content that is interesting to individuals, it's personalised to individuals, means something to an individual, not just let's chuck everything out there and hope for the best. It is going to become more and more intelligent. What you get served on Netflix is different to what I get served on Netflix. Even if you are watching Ozark and I'm watching Ozark, they're both going to be different album covers, but that happens now. So even if the same programme right now on Netflix will have two different album covers because you like different stuff to what I like, that is the way that content marketing is going to be going online, right?

(53:19):
YouTube thumbnails, that's the way that tiktoks going. That's the way that every single piece of content will be going in time, even more so as AI becomes something that conversion creative more and more, right? We use Opus a huge amount for our podcast where we put an hours long episode into it and we get 50 different shorts off the back of it. Some are 30 seconds, some are 90 seconds. Some have the same hooks, some have different hooks, some have different bits in the middle, some have different thumbnails, and we put it out on TikTok, we put it out on Instagram, but we're putting out 50, 60 assets across the course of a week or two because that's going out organically and then boosting the ones that are working, right? But the fact of the matter is that is building an audience of people that are interested in what we are doing so we can then personalise the content more so to our specific niche, if that makes sense.

(54:04):
So if you're selling a product and you understand that it's Gen Z, it's female, it's lip balm, you can really hyper personalise that in London, right? Specifically 10 mile radius of Oxford Street. You can specifically personalise that content to that demographic, to that individual, to that audience set because you understand and you have that data to start a business. You don't have much data, so you can't do a lot of this, but you can use the platforms that are out there such as meta, such as TikTok, to start to understand what resonates and what hits with your audience, which is why I go back to starting with organic because that kind of gives you a worst case scenario. This is kind of working, but over time you double down and you put budget into it and you'll be able to build more data points, you'll be able to build a bigger audience, you'll be able to build stickiness, greater lifetime value and thus greater returns. But that is the typical kind of route as a startup to scale up. It's like put shit out there, scale that stuff and it's working, increase the LTV, bring down the cac, and there you've got your margin. That is literally the kind of rule book of how to do it in a really, really basic way. But if you wanted to take something from this podcast, go organic, go performance, increase LTV, bring back cac, make sure that you're managing the budget as efficiently as possible. Add set for winning ad set for losing.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Beautiful. That was beautifully put. So to kind of move into the conclusion of this, I'm very curious. So now you are still with Pinpoint Media, but you've already exited and what's next for you? Where's your mind at? What are you excited about?

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Yeah, for sure. So I'm part of Pinpoint Media at the moment, so I'm kind going through that earnout phase, which is just truly fascinating, loving every minute of it. What's next for me? I'm investing in certain businesses, so I've just joined as founding partner Caper. So caper allows founders and entrepreneurs essentially to upload their cred decks if they're going for funding, and it will essentially give them a CAPAR score as to how likely it is that it will get funding where they can actually improve areas that are perfect already, funds that might match well based on the thesis of the fund, for instance, all this kind of stuff. Have a look at it, go onto cap, it's freed to upload your deck and you can set

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Minutes. How do you spell that

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Cap? C-A-P-L-I-A. So go and jump over and have a look at that. It literally launched last week, raised capital for it, and it's got a great backing and it's got some incredible businesses on there. So go and have a play. We think that's going to be quite exciting. You can then speak to Iris on the platform, which is its AI agent, and you can ask it where I can improve my decks, where I can improve my presentations. You can annotate within Iris, she'll remember everything. And then when you're doing shareholder updates, once a month or once a quarter, you'll ask it just to update shareholders and it will remember everything you've, you've told it and it'll update your share. So super interesting kind of brings together that kind of fundraising piece, which is just so clunky at the moment, and you've got decks flying around everywhere and information flying out of it. So that's one thing that I'm involved in there, writing some angel tickets and then relaunching my podcast, the Unlock, which in card are very kindly sponsored. So really, really excited to get that one. Pumping Launch is this week, which is 3rd of March. Yeah, you can find that YouTube podcast platforms wherever you listen to.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
What can people expect from the unlock?

Speaker 1 (57:10):
The Unlock. So what we're going to have is actionable insights from founders are four founders, essentially. So it will be one-to-ones with myself and other founders. For instance, the chap who founded Yo Sushi. We've got guys who founded Bowl, the guys from Fuel for instance, who incidentally today sold to Danon for a billion dollars. All coming on the podcast just talking about their journey, their growth, how they've done what they've done, what they've done badly, what they've done well, but also actionable insights from me and my team in terms of how to actually scale, how to market, how to build campaigns, how to raise money, how to do stuff to take your business to the next level, be it as a one person startup or a hundred person organisation, having done raised capital, sold a business, bought a business, founded a business over the last 10 years.

(57:51):
I feel well positioned to be able to at least tell my story as to what I've done wrong, and hopefully people can learn from what I've buggered up on and not do the same for themselves. Appreciate you listening to the podcast. Hopefully you found it useful. For those that want to read up or learn more, head over to my LinkedIn page, Oliver Bruce online, where you'll find a weekly newsletter called the Brucey Bonus where we double click into more detail and give you more tips and tricks around how to scale your business. If you want to share this with friends, family, colleagues, business owners, people that are in your circle then might find it useful. I would be super appreciative if I said at the beginning of the podcast, this does not grow on its own. This grows with you and we do it for you.

(58:32):
So thank you so much for listening and catch you next time. I mentioned earlier, but I do think something that you guys might find super useful if you're running a business and managing multiple transactions across multiple platforms is in card. It's a new financial platform for modern online businesses, giving you guys multicurrency accounts, connected banking and smart spend management all in one place. You can open up an account in minutes, attach cards for expenses, and earn up to 2% cash back on everyday spend like ads, SaaS, and travel. Check out incar using the link in the description.