Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast

hello, everybody, and welcome to

episode of

94.

My name's Andrew

Murray,

I'm here in the iStudio with Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen, and

Ian Hislop.

I'm gonna start off by saying to you

all,

Hey.

Hey.

hey And I say

Hay because we're going

the Hay

Festival.

We have a live Page 94.

That

was

the cheesiest yeah,

think.

I

liked

it.

yeah.

you would ... I'm gonna

old time.

Yeah.

we're doing a live

event

the Hay

Festival, which is

easy commute

from anywhere in the United Kingdom.

Incredibly fast.

Yes, we're gonna be

setting the world

to

rights, as

we always

do, but this time

be doing

it live.

so

that is gonna be on

the

27th

of May.

What day was that?

27th

of

May.

that a Wednesday

by any

chance?

I believe

it

is.

And what time would that be, Andy?

Oh, early evening.

evening.

Just turn up whenever.

7:30, I think.

But it might be,

6:30. So cut that

I think.

we

should

find

out.

to be fair, they

can't do it without us, so if we only turn up at 7:30.

Yeah.

Hang on

7:00. Phew.

Neither of

the ones that

we completely

suggested could be correct.

And all

four of us are doing

separate events around

Hay.

So also on

27th, Ian, you're gonna be

interviewed, by Paddy O'Connell.

Yes.

And

I'm gonna be talking

about

my favorite books

that have influenced

my

life

and it says career, but I

think that might

be

it.

it.

Adam, you're

doing an event,

also

the 27th, about tribalism in

politics.

Apparently with Penny Mordaunt and Guto Hari.

Wow.

together at last.

Will

you be carrying a

big

sword?

I

will.

Yeah.

Yeah, we all have to.

Excellent.

That's

That's

contractual,

yeah.

Helen,

you're

gonna be- talking about

America

250.

I've got

a really

panel.

They're all just so much

more impressive than

than me.

What is it?

The hemi-semi-sesquipali-centenary of America or

something.

Semi- There's some complicated word

that means

250 years.

250.

years.

Fantastic.

and I'll

be doing

an event on

26th

at 2:30 PM about my new book.

Have

you got a new book

out,

I've

got a

new book out.

Is that

available to pre-order by any chance?

Do you know?

I

think it is.

Great news.

I thought we didn't

read

out adverts on this podcast.

Only for us, though.

I'm

sorry,

yeah.

There's been

a change of

policy.

can I point

out my

available for pre-order as well?

Yeah.

plug ever.

corner ends.

Yeah.

And

now,

from one, exciting race between four very

dynamic candidates,

only

one of whom is a woman, we move to Labor

How

was that?

That

was

that?

Brilliant.

That

was

good.

why

we have to do this?

Why is this all going on now?

Thing

is, I'm

black pilled about this.

I

don't

think any of these

are gonna make any difference to the intractable problems

we've got In our, our...

So I'm just going to,

just going to

enjoy them knifing

other.

the

assures that, that it?

doesn't

matter

really That's a

Game

of Thrones

and

Succession

viewer right there, isn't it?

But

know what I

mean.

It's really quite sad.

I think they've got some very

large

problems in, Britain,

but, if you look at the difference, between... K- Keir Starmer obviously now

drained of all authority.

Angela

Rayner did a very

odd,

mini manifesto where she said she wanted to end freehold.

Which is not really that possible, like

people owning homes.

Okay.

Andy

Burnham gave an

interview

the New Statesman last year ahead of conference, in which he said,

"I w- I will do more borrowing.

I won't be cowed by the bond markets." Last person who said that was-

There's Liz Truss ... Liz

great.

And also the

phrase,

we can't be in

Hock to

the

bond markets." Hock is what you

are-

Yeah

if

you,

go

for more borrowing.

It was a

very

strange idea that I don't want to be,

responsible for borrowing a lot, and then have the people I've

borrowed off asking for the money

back.

it

doesn't

work like that.

Yeah, you don't

get

to pick what interest

people

are charging you

on your money, I'm

afraid.

So then we've got Wes Streeting.

We've

got Wes

" Streeting.

I don't know if he

said anything.

Oh,

actually,

he came... So he

immediately, He, resigned from the

cabinet,

resigned his house.

said, "I've had an amazing time.

We've got waiting list

downs, but that's

it.

I'm leaving." Yeah.

always go out on a

high note.

And then

he went to the Progress conference and said, "By the way, I'd

love us

to rejoin the

EU."

Very funny,

you have to be

quite steeped in Labour

law

to understand why this is so funny, which

I, I understand

that some people

have lives and

fulfilling personal time.

the Labour membership are mustard

keen on the

EU.

They absolutely love it.

So when Keir Starmer was

running in

2020 he said, "I will basically be continuity Corbynism, love that guy, but I

think we could have done a bit more on

antisemitism,

plus I'm much more

keen on Europe than he is."

' Cause he knew this was the way it was safe to dissent from

the leadership line in a way

that the members who were generally very pro-Corbyn

liked.

Streeting has done

exactly the same.

I know you think I'm all in, I'm incredibly right-wing

for a Labour person, but by

the Lord, I

love

EU, right?

It

also

this

secondary, excellently

funny effect of stuffing Andy Burnham, who

will never

be asked whether or not He

thinks

we

should rejoin the EU.

He

has to now, if

his

plan is

fight this by-election and then fight the Labour

leadership election, if it's contested, he needs to get the

members on side.

So in order to get the members on side, he

needs to go, "God, I love the EU.

I wish to be buried in a flag with the stars

on It My mother

is Ursula von der Leyen."

"I,

have a big portrait of Jacques Chirac in my office."

Whatever it might be.

But he's about

to fight a very

reform facing Brexity seat.

So if he says, lads, we'll all be speaking French by Christmas, great

for the second election he's got in his future, very bad for the one now.

So

he is going to have

do some good old-fashioned Ne- New Labour style triangulation

if this becomes an issue.

But it's, not

his

only

' cause he's fighting this by-election, if,

he gets the nomination,

on

the

grounds of

If you

hate the Labour

government,

vote

Labour.

Which is an odd position, isn't it?

You've got to vote

for

him In order to

Keir Starmer out.

Yeah ...essentially.

Here's our

argument.

All, everyone, will

saying, "Hate Starmer? Vote for me." the- I

think Keir

Starmer

should run on that.

Yeah.

platform.

You hate me.

Okay, you hate me.

you

hate me.

But you hate everyone else more.

Can we just come

back to Keir Starmer

for a second?

Yes.

Yeah.

'Cause the chucking

threshold for prime ministers seems to have been creeping downwards, I would say.

Liz

Truss,

I get it.

I get why

she

had

to

go.

Boris Johnson,

Rishi Sunak lost an election.

what's

done?

Nothing.

That's the problem.

Really.

They've

the

haunting thing that k-

keeps coming out again and again is the idea that

people don't know

what he stands for, who he thinks he's for and against, what his vision is.

So the classic idea of the Prime Minister is that

you set the terms of the debate, so people can make decisions because

they know what you

do

in that

circumstance.

And what people report from inside that operation is

that they

don't know

how Starmer would

jump on something.

It paralyzes.

But he's

also not a very

decision-maker

himself, so nobody

knows what to

do.

stuff just gets in this holding

pattern, basically.

With welfare reform,

tried to put

something that was quite tough, didn't get

it,

The

MPs puked, and then they came back with

something less.

with winter fuel, they

tried

and didn't try.

Shabana Mahmood's reforms

to indefinitely to remain.

V- very

hard thing to get past Labour

MPs

who

don't want

vote to be m-

meaner to immigrants.

But you'd have to say, this is it.

I'm staking-- we all got

elected on this manifesto.

You're gonna have to

do it."

and the quote that

I

think

will forever haunt

Starmer is from, Gabriel Progar

and Patrick Maguire's Get In.

hang on a minute.

No, which one is

it?

They've all got in and out titles.

their Get Out?

gentleman's... Yeah.

I saw

Get Out.

Out.

No, it's... No.

didn't

to involve

much Labour

friends.

Yeah.

Jeremy Corbyn

sat

In a chair

and plunged

the,

Underworld.

It

is,

It is,

It's Get

In with the, But,

someone

said it's

the DLR.

It's a driverless train.

No one's driving the train.

and that's what they felt.

They felt that Morgan

McSweeney, his former chief of staff, did have

an idea of what he was doing, but people didn't like it.

Now he's gone.

There's

nothing.

I

I thought the

most

interesting bit of, last

events wasn't actually Wes Streeting going... There, there were also,

before that, there were four junior

who went as well, didn't they?

three of which I must admit I was completely blissfully unaware of

until the point when they sent in their resignation letters.

But one of them was

Jess Phillips, who,

people will

know

about.

I certainly know about.

I thought there was a really

interesting line

Most of the

resignations

letters with that

standard thing of the first paragraph says, "I'm really proud of all

the

stuff I've

achieved in my de- my department.

Here is a list of it,

But we had

disastrous

in

the election, and I think it's time for you to

go.

Sorry."

Jess Phillips was much more in detail about what

thought was wrong

with Keir Starmer.

And

the line I thought was, rather brilliant

line from

she

said, The desire not to have an

means we rarely

make an argument." And it's

that thing you're

talking about.

You don't feel there's a sort of vision there

that he's

pushing through

in the way that, say, strong prime ministers like Tony Blair or Margaret

Thatcher absolutely had their convictions,

and

they were pushing through whether the rest of the party liked it or not.

I

she of course

a minister for, against rather violence against women and

girls.

and she said she, there was a possibility of real changes in

that area, but i-

it

came

threats

made by me

in the light

catastrophic mistakes.

She

was very honest in the letter, and she

said basically

she jumped on the

Mandelson stuff.

Every time that

the Mandelson stuff came up, suddenly the government were very keen to

prove

that they were

the, o- on

the side of doing stuff against, the exploitation of women, and

she

took those

She said, "Yep,

never

want to waste a crisis

to make advancements

for women and girls."

would push things then, and that was the

only way

she found she could

really,

get stuff done.

Wasn't part of

the problem there

was the grooming gangs fiasco was in the background.

And again,

Keir

Starmer

and

his,

operation

were not keen

to

say, We've already had a lot of inquiries."

" Do we

absolutely need

another national inquiry?

This hasn't been ignored and shoved under the

carpet.

This is

a narrative coming from

somewhere else." we covered this

quite extensively in the Eye.

and the idea that,

mainstream journalism from

Andrew Norfolk onward, and then local government and local

inquiries.

I he wasn't keen

to take any

stance on this.

So even the one thing that

Jess Phillips suggested, I would guess, got lost in

the feeling of, "Nope,

we don't want to go there."

Yeah,

I

think that w- with the grooming gangs inquiry, I think there was a, an

argument to be made.

And actually Andrew Norfolk before he died said this, which is you could

just end up spending a lot of money on lawyers' fees and not actually get

any more justice for these victims.

They didn't wanna say that, so it left in this... Labor

MPs were very

about it.

they didn't wanna

go out

and defend

something

that was

change.

look at this with the two-child benefit, cap.

People got suspended.

They got the

Labour whip withdrawn for

policy which is now, a year later, Labor policy.

This is just-- you have to have, even if you're wrong, you have to

tell everyone what you think so

they can be confident deploying

out and

going, and having the

with people in their constituency.

Yeah,

and I

think that

Jess Phillips letter was exactly right about that, I also think the

fact that his panicked, Keir Starmer's panicked response to the local

elections was, "Bring me Gordon Brown and Harriet Harman."

Yes.

That

was the moment, yeah.

Which was, I think everybody in the whole of

of

went What?

It's

really weird with Keir Starmer, though, 'cause there's a combination

that sort of decisive action, but not allies to any sort

of vision, it sometimes seems

like.

So all of those

people were expelled

from the party

or, suspended for kind of six months at a time, I think.

But without any

sort of

to push that through.

when Boris Johnson kicked all of those people out because

they were going against his

Brexit

yeah, it, wasn't

popular with people on the other side, but it was at least a kind

definitive, "This

is what we're doing.

This

the

government's

agenda.

the whole

thing

about getting Brexit through, and that was seen as

a way

doing it.

Whereas

with Keir Starmer, it

just seemed

how

many,

of

your, kind of friends and allies can

you make take the fall for you?

I mean- ...Morgan McSweeney went, Ollie Robbins

went, yeah, there, seemed all sorts of people just seemed to have to fall on

their swords for cockups that, that, that really went all the

way to the top, didn't they?

And it seemed to be odd

that

you bring in two

quite old people from a previous government.

It does suggest to your current

backbenchers-

that none of you are any good.

I've got some jobs going, but you can't have them.

Obviously, I'm going

to give

them to some people who you've already seen

before.

I have to say, most

cartoonists, and indeed nearly everyone on the eye, immediately said,

"Can we have. Peter Madison back?"

'Cause he's another, big figure from those years

be really useful

to

have.

And

again,

I

it, is the fact that Keir can't do

any sort of

management,

which

you know

is a boring thing to point out,

but that,

that clearly is one of the

reasons he

didn't, carry anyone

with him.

It's

odd, something we've talked about ever since the government got in is

the kind of Blairite comfort blanket.

We mentioned

Alan Milburn coming back and

Jonathan Powell, and it's very odd, for Keir Starmer, who doesn't

give any impression of being

deeply steeped

in

labor history, know?

not somebody who kind of swoons

over Clement

Attlee or whatever it might

it might be.

To then have this attachment to

bringing back

Blairite

figures.

Sort of odd, isn't it?

like

reviving, like

Malcolm in the, Middle or

It's just everyone likes

liked

it worked at the time.

Like they've done, yeah.

Yeah, why don't we do this again?

But I wonder how if that

was a,

that was

something that was interesting for Jess.

The other thing she said

in

that letter was "I wanted to put software on everybody's phones that

basically would b- stop children uploading naked pictures of themselves

to the internet." Now, we can have

an argument about

whether or not that's authoritarianism, whatever.

But her way of presenting it was they didn't wanna

have the fight with the tech companies.

And

I think that is a really interesting

thing, is that are you willing to identify villains in

public life?

So Reform have got a very

clear argument about Who they think is

ruining Britain.

Yeah

the Greens have got a very clear argument

about who they think is ruining Britain.

who according to Keir Starmer, is stopping

us being

kind of country he would like us to be?

And I can't, two years in, I can't answer that.

He's come out pretty

strongly

about Reform and, their opinions, and

he's, I think, flirted with actually saying, I

think these people

are, acting in a racist manner, which

is strong prime ministerial language.

But that's

Not enough for You

Being scared of the

tech barons is

a really weird

one,

these guys are not popular.

Yeah.

I know that weirdly Tommy

Robinson on Saturday got

his

crowd to

three cheers for Elon Musk,

but I'm not sure the country at large want to

give

cheers for Elon, Musk.

they, these are quite identifiable

baddies that

that Yeah that

... it might not

hurt him to go up against.

they're

a bit like

sort of water

bosses.

There are a few

obvious villains

out there

who, you could set yourself

against and define yourself that way, I'm sure.

Yeah,

you can see- Andy Burnham

what

he's doing there.

He's come out against, smartphone use in school, and he

came out at the,

maybe

at the weekend or maybe it was an

archive clip, against VAR

in football,

which

just one of those things that is, I think, unites most football fans- ... is

that they hate the idea that you stop a match for six minutes while some

people in a shed look at the clip and

then you start again.

Yeah,

And- Experts, boo.

Sorry.

No, but that

referee was supposed

to

the expert, and he's actually-

there.

Anyway, but the he has identified they're... Who likes

FIFA?

Who likes

the FA, right?

Who likes

faceless corporations that make a load of,

of money out

fans- Yeah

and don't s- you know, FIFA are in the middle of putting,

halftime breaks

into

the World Cup final so they can flog more adverts and make it like the Super Bowl.

These people are

not popular, and if you're a government, you're

you're

allowed

to,

you're allowed

to hop... This comes back

to your Deirdre Barlow

of Tony Blair.

Free-

My Deirdre Bar- Tony Blair.

But

he Suddenly got into Free Deirdre.

You

jump on the bandwagon.

Yes.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

This was when she went to prison,

Fictional character, my lad,

in Coronation Street.

Oh, thank for a minute

there, Dave- ... Tony

had

campaigning for someone

the

real

world.

But, she was on

Coronation

There was a storyline,

and Tony Blair shamelessly

onto

And then- Yeah ... it hadn't seemed-

haven't seen- I mean, the

Jas, the Jas Phillips one in

particular seemed because not only

is it going up

against

tech bar- tech barons, but it's also attempting to stop child pornography.

this seems to me this would be

quite a popular move with the public.

There's not- Yeah, there's not a huge pro child pornography lobby out

there in politics that

you're gonna lose a vote to.

there's

is

... a

a big

reform chunk who are

fixated and concentrate

on defending children.

Yeah.

this

is

their agenda.

This was the-

What

about SLAPPs?

You're always telling

SLAPPs would be incredibly

popular for a government

bring

in.

Yeah,

SLAPPs,

which seem to

have completely fallen

by the wayside.

talked about this,

in, in in the last podcast.

so this is strategic lawsuits against public participation, and

there's been a lot of, research

come out for FOI, requests by various people

which

show that the lobbying

by

Society of

Media Lawyers,

our friends at Carter-Ruck and Mishcon de Reya and places like that,

has been very, successful.

it's gone completely

the back burner.

I, again, it's,

greedy

lawyers

and sort

of Russian oligarchs and people

suing journalists.

It

would,

I

think, be

fairly popular with

the

to go up against these people.

It would certainly get the newspaper editors on

side, wouldn't

it?

I

think we would unequivocally

that people

stopping-

here.

Trying

to put

us out

business- Yeah

would,

would go

down quite

well,

But none of these things, I think, clear the public opinion threshold.

I know, I, see what you're saying about SLAPPs, but I don't think-

Most members of the public care too much about slaps in particular.

Sorry.

No, they

though.

But they, I know they should.

I know they should.

But none of these things,

seem to clear

the bar.

It just feel, feels like a slow agglomeration of

irritations that have sapped public support, meaning that eventually

no one's willing to go into bat

for the government.

I, think there's also a

feeling

that, putting, employers' National Insurance up-

Yeah

hasn't helped hugely, and the

figures

are, people are

still

arguing about them, but

not looking terribly

good.

Yeah.

And the economy is, always something that people

will judge you on, and whether it's Keir's fault or not,

he hasn't

sufficiently well that

it

isn't his fault.

If

it's the

fault of,

hangover

from, Russia/Ukraine plus, the next

war in the middle

of, plus,

the, financial crisis, which is still going on, and

dare I say it, Brexit, and

figures are

still suggesting GDP went

down,

4% and everybody's lost out.

You've got to make that case.

If you're in the middle of an economic crisis, you can't just say, "Oh,

it's miserable, isn't it?

And I look miserable."

You

do,

have

to say

why.

And

the case for the unpopular bits as well.

that was the thing with Mrs. Thatcher.

She

was prepared

say, unemployment sadly is the price we're gonna have to pay," which

was a very, unpopular thing

say,

but it felt at least that

there was a sort of vision

a reasoning

behind it?

Whereas I

feel

the

public at the

moment are just feeling

like

the

economy and everything, is

just drifting and

no one is

taking

any, charge

of anything.

Now,

the other case

people

make is

that, Keir Starmer just

doesn't look

like he's having fun.

And it's easy to

see

why you would not look like you're having fun

because

it's...

most people have not seemed like they're having fun in this job, frankly.

Theresa

May did that little

dance, didn't she?

Oh, you're right.

She was having fun

then.

She was away on that time.

that was her happy place.

Boris Johnson

was her happy place.

Boris Johnson seemed to be having an absolute ball, but I don't- Yeah, none of

the

rest

of

us were.

No,

exactly.

So-

Even

Rishi

Sunak looked like he was doing u- useful and important work.

Do you think?

when he got to have his AI

summit, he s- was absolutely thrilled.

That was his- That

was

his high

point.

That

was

his

thing.

And

off, wasn't it?

And

chess-

chessboards

in parks

and con- And maths A-levels,

that made him very happy.

100 chess boards in parks.

But no pieces.

Bring your own

Bring your

own

pieces.

Anyway,

God, that's

And when he tried to u- buy a can of Coke ...and meet members of the public.

And

Oh,

yeah.

And he didn't have

any

get

That

was quite good.

He

up someone

else's car with

petrol,

didn't he?

Oh, we're feeling wistful about Rishi

Sunak now.

Yeah.

is what happens,

There's always-

a nostalgia.

The nostalgia.

kicks in.

Okay.

But you're

right.

there is a trope

in

politics that's called the happy warrior, Which is

basically someone who gets out of bed every morning and they

go, and they

argue

people.

And

actually it works in journalism too.

lots of these

YouTube creators, they just love having a ruck.

They get up... r- I... The thought for me of

being invited on some show to argue the toss with somebody makes, fills

my heart with dread these days.

some

people love it, They get out and they, absolutely thrive on it.

And actually,

in today's attention economy, you've

gotta be

out stuff all the time.

You've gotta seem like you're really up for a ruck.

And this is a

thing that Nigel Farage And Zak Polanski are both constantly doing.

They're,

almost

n- they're almost never

not making a TikTok, as far as I can tell.

They're

just-

They're like

95th percentile- Yeah

... extroverts.

They

their energy

Yeah ...from

being in company.

Now, Nigel

Farage in the

Reform podcast,

which I

be the only

listener to, he has got so many

people waiting to see him on

stage, and there's an overflow room.

So he goes

and

does an hour of Q&A in the overflow

room beforehand.

that is, for him

that

is politics, is people

questions, him shooting the breeze with them.

You get that same vibe

off Zak Polanski.

the

Q&A sessions don't involve the

question- why did you take that money?

and why

you

declare it?

I... He seems less keen to answer that one.

Yeah.

that

ruck

is not one

having.

No.

But

that

that was also the case with Jeremy

Jeremy Corbyn

loved being asked, "When will the socialist paradise come? How

Can I hear more about your jam?"

And rather less about, "Do you think we should pull out of NATO

then, like you always used to say?"

Can I... finish, can I

finish?

Can I finish?

Yeah, All

right, love.

All right,

down.

Now,

Let's turn

to someone who does seem like they

enjoy public

life,

who's Andy

Burnham.

Yeah, for some of us, this is,

the whole episode is bringing back me- memories of the long 2010s-

when Andy Burnham

on the periphery of, of my

vision for all of that, time.

Actually, I was on a I was on a panel with him in Labour Party conference in 2021.

God, I'm

getting nostalgic for Labour

Party conferences past.

This is worse than nostalgia for Rishi Sunak.

he is, he has enjoyed being m- mayor of Manchester.

I think people generally find the mayoralties to be the right

size of job, where you can

actually do things, and people see them in their everyday lives in a

way that at prime ministerial level has become much more a struggle.

S- Sadiq Khan has been, what?

He's in his third term as mayor of London now.

He's majored on, mostly on clean air

and, things like that, and he's, he's written books about it.

He's And that's something he really likes talking about and going into bat for.

And Ulez is another example of it.

And if it- And he

he loves doing,

cross-religious stuff.

That man has been to a

a lot

synagogues.

Can't, you

him

keep him out.

Okay.

But, he, sees the ambassadorial role of being, London's

voice as Well, yeah- as being really important.

And again, does

seem to be enjoying

more.

But yeah, so Andy Burnham's path to glory is, there's a selection

meeting at the NEC this week.

Technically, Starmer has got

the votes on the NEC

to block it, but I think there would be an actual riot if he did.

Okay.

candidate selection, again,

quite

brave person than the rest of Labour to run against him for that

selection, so we'll see how that goes.

But then, then he's got to, a, really difficult challenge to win

that seat.

His chances are looking pretty good.

But the, specific, so it's Makerfield on the outskirts of Wigan, and it

just returned all Reform councilors in the latest group of local elections.

So

why do you think his chances look pretty good then?

Because he is popular in that area.

he's got incredibly good public profile.

Who are Reform gonna run that's gonna have an equivalent profile to

him?

Matt Goodwin

lastly.

It could be

good Matt Win.

Matt Goodwin.

in

beard.

be Good Matt Win.

Matt Goodwin in a beard.

but

if Reform could find somebody with his popularity and name recognition.

And the other thing is it's a by-election.

It's not the general election.

Reform's voter base is more people who left school at 18, more

low information voters, people

who

aren't massively engaged by politics.

Those people don't

tend to turn out in by-elections in the way

that college gr- college graduates, I'm so American.

University graduates- ...people who read a newspaper consistently,

all those

kind of

people

are much more likely... like the f- the conditions in a by-election are

are more favorable to Labour.

But

they said that about local elections, didn't they?

And then a lot of Reform voters did

turn up this

time.

Yeah.

it might just be that they're people...

my, main fear for Andy Burnham in this is what I think of as the Boaty McBoatface

problem, which is I think there might

be a lot

people... who think, "You really want

to

prime minister.

This is essentially a by-election to be prime minister."

Yeah.

"Wouldn't it

funny if we just voted

against you and stopped you?" Much like voting

for the, a ship to be named

Boaty McBoatface.

That's the banter

outcome.

But-

There is a

isn't there, of

people not, lo-

of people in constituencies not liking being used

this way.

there was the Leyton by-election in '64 when

Harold Wilson

was trying to get

someone in.

You're

laughing at me.

Oh, yeah.

No, Leyton, '64.

Yeah, '64.

'64. Yeah.

I was,

thinking it was '63,

' 63, but it's '64.

yeah.

With my Professor Sir John Curtice

on-

... ' 64,

Harold Wilson

tried to parachute in

a a someone who he wanted to make

his

foreign secretary.

And the voters just

kind of went, "No, we're not having

We're not doing that

at

all."

And then fo-

all Right.

this is one you have heard of.

of.

same year, I think.

when, Alec Douglas-Home was, appointed as head of the, as leader

of.

Conservative Party without a seat in Parliament.

Ah, yeah.

yeah.

He was

into a seat up in Scotland, And famously Private Eye put

up a candidate against

for exactly this reason,

' cause they objected to

some sort of coronation, and, Willie Rushton ran against

him.

He

didn't get a huge number of votes.

He is still trying.

37 votes, so it wasn't-

brilliantly successful.

37. But- Okay.

But it does tell you something about the kind of mood

on, on,

occasions

when people feel that

people are being parachuted in like that.

One last solution.

Surely Farage resigns his Clacton

seat, stands in this by-election.

Whoever

wins becomes PM.

Easy.

And

then Josh

Simons could take over

in Clacton,

couldn't he?

They could all just musical chairs all around the country.

would- That's a

good

idea,

except

that it's the first time

Farage won in a by-election.

I do not think

- Yeah ... he's going

to give up Clacton,

" easily.

Who's gonna

buy him a house in,

Macces-

Macclesfield?

Macclesfield?

partner.

His

with her family money.

Oh, that's so true.

Yeah.

That's a

good point.

He probably won't need a donation he

doesn't declare.

aren't

there canals there?

Could he live on a

boat

for

boat?

bit?

a bit?

Can I just

bu- the last point I'd

said

is, when

I read these

resignation letters, all of

them

say, I did a

fantastic job

as Manchester mayor.

I did a fantastic

job as health secretary." I think, why don't you just stay there-

then

and

then you

can all do

brilliant

job, and we could

carry

on.

That's

what I've been trying to say.

Because it's the only time

that anyone is ever

going to listen

you talk about how hard it's been and how

you've done- in your job without

right?

You just have to go, "I tried very hard and I won the 50 meters

swimming medal," and no one cared.

I'm gonna write a letter resigning as host of Page 94, but saying I've driven us

to new metrics and new global audiences.

Yeah, I'm excited.

Okay.

Great.

can you do that

after

this

Yeah, all

will.

'Cause

I've spent time writing

this.

Yes.

we come now

to the quiz.

Helen, give

us the name of

the quiz.

Okay.

Th- You

wrote, this is like

resignation.

I was writing the things

I was... proud of was writing the name of this quiz.

Faction

or Fiction.

Oh.

Hey.

Thank

you

Very

much.

It is, of course, about

the

people

vying for the Labour

leadership-

past candidates for the Labour leadership.

Okay.

With what hashtag did Angela Rayner announce that she'd become a

a grandmother

at the

of 37?

Agrandgela.

Very good.

Hey.

Very good.

in 2015, Andy Burnham wore a T-shirt

declaring that he had never

done what to a

Tory,

Kissed.

Tentatively.

Very

I wrote hopefully.

No, I remember that

phase

people

going around wearing "Never

a Tory" T-shirts.

it is correct.

the update

it was that when the Evening

Standard cornered

at late night

at, Labour Party conference,

he said he had in fact kissed a Tory.

snogging a

Tory, her name was

Octavia, and

went to

Trinity

College.

Oh, I thought you

were gonna say

William

Hague.

If

Which

of

the following

people

has Andy Burnham received fewer

votes

than

in a Labour leadership

election?

A, Ed Miliband, B, David Miliband, C, Ed Balls, or D, Jeremy Corbyn.

It's all of them, isn't it?

It's all of the above, yeah.

you saw

through my ruse.

It's

a trick question, yes.

very good.

in 2010, he

placed

behind both Milibands

and TV favorite

Balls-

... in the first round.

he did beat Diane Abbott, though.

Okay.

Who you remember was lent the vote by- to get in

the

because

David Miliband

" This is quite embarrassing.

We're all white men."

Establishing a precedent that Labour MPs then followed

letting a left candidate in

2015. His name was

Jeremy Corbyn.

That went badly for them.

okay, in 2016,

Owen Smith challenged

Jeremy Corbyn

for the Labour leadership,

and the Labour left successfully painted him

as

a big

pharma shill because of his previous life as a lobbyist for Pfizer.

But which drug was He forced to deny having used?

Viagra.

Correct.

Oh.

Yeah.

He

It was

Viagra.

He

told

Piers Morgan,

asked about

it somewhat inevitably.

Of course he

did, Yeah,

That's for me

and

Mrs. Smith to know about."

Wow.

Yeah, he went

back to university.

Last Labour

candidate that who

could claim to have achieved growth.

It

didn't give him a bump in the polls?

Now

stop it.

Okay.

Okay.

All

of you,

think about what you've

done.

Also in

2016,

Angela Eagle's Labour leadership campaign... Now, yeah, okay, remember

this?

Yeah

was blighted by what technical difficulty?

A,

she had lost her voice and had to use gestures to indicate her

issues

with Jeremy

Corbyn.

Think

think, yeah, think to

yourself.

B,

one of the Tory leadership candidates

the same time

pulled

out of,

their

during her speech

causing all the journos to

flee.

C, the

day before, BBC News had

accidentally booked her twin, Maria Eagle, to

talk about

the contest

on

Newsnight.

Or

D,

one of the banners at the front of the hall collapsed revealing

Tom Watson hiding behind

it

that's brilliant.

I I

was gonna

say

B, but I remember it being

interrupted, not by Boris Johnson dropping out,

but by him being

appointed foreign secretary, wasn't it?

No, you're smudging things together in your mind.

Am

I?

I Okay.

I think it was-

I

think it

was B.

I think it was-

You think B, you're going B?

the same speech at the same time.

You're

going B?

You're going B?

I like the one where the BBC books the wrong person.

twin, Maria

Yeah.

They were

both in the parliament

same time.

It was B. Ah.

it was Andrea Leadsom who pulled out.

Okay.

Yes.

She went for a question saying- Leadsom ... "Can I take a question

from Robert Peston?" He wasn't there.

Oh.

He'd

left.

Oh.

And that,

it never

recovered.

Her whole, basically her leadership campaign.

It's what they say, if you've

lost Peston, you've lost the leadership,

don't they?

Did Andrea Leadsom drop out because

a

CV

issue?

No, She dropped out- 'cause she said- No

Theresa May won't be able to understand the country 'cause

she doesn't have children.

An incredible Times front page with that

interview with Andrea Leadsom,

and then Stephen Crabb had been sexting a young person inappropriately, and just

the ti- one day, The Times just nuked

two of

them at

the

time.

for any younger viewers, maybe the people on YouTube, just ask

your parents about all this.

Stephen

Crabb.

to

Stephen Crabb.

Just to

specify quite what a brilliant media operator,

And- Andrea

Leadsom was, the

full

was something along

the lines of, "I

wouldn't want to say

this in public

it's really nasty."

"But

Theresa

wouldn't

be a good prime minister

she hasn't got

children," she

said to a journalist with a

tape recorder.

Said

Said

it once-

and-

it once- for the younger people you've just referred

to,

it does

suggest that politics

doesn't just get worse.

Yeah.

It sometimes stays quite the same.

Oh,

that?

was

an...

I feel sad for anyone who can't remember that, 'cause that was also

surely the

one where Boris Johnson was

going

stand, and

the morning of his campaign launch, Michael Gove

knifed him.

and then he

he had to

go and give a speech

saying, "I'm not

going to stand." Yeah.

Yes.

And then

then Michael

And gloriously,

camera was on Nadine Dorries,

who

reacted, who'd been

expecting him to say, "I will be your next

prime minister," and just the, find it

on

YouTube, the look of devastation that creeps

across her face as

she grabs the man next to her's arm.

Oh.

Oh.

It's worth it

Michael

Gove's finest hour.

Yeah,

definitely.

Okay,

riffing on Gerard Kaufman's famous description of Michael Foot's 1983

manifesto, how did the journalist Chris

Deering once describe the Ed Stone, Ed Miliband's obelisk of

electoral pledges?

the tallest suicide note in history?

Nearly.

So

nearly.

The

Hardest,

Yes,

yeah, that's where I was going.

I've gone back to Owen

Smith

and the

lime.

But,

bike.

It was the heaviest

suicide note

in

history.

Oh, Oh,

yes.

He described, the 1983 manifesto of Labour as the longest suicide

note in

history.

Yes.

I

know who's

winning, but

I'm gonna give you

tiebreaker anyway.

It's Adam

who's winning.

Yeah,

it's Adam

winning.

he knew

about

1964.

In

what year?

The

late

Empire...

yeah,

yeah,

When pictured out running- Yes

Yes ... in

short shorts, Andy

Burnham was wearing a replica vintage

Everton shirt.

from which period of the club's history

did it come?

Ding,

ding, ding,

ding, 1980.

Oh my God.

I

got a football question right.

Ian and I

are

still trying to

understand the

of reference.

Can I, suggest that's a

sackable offense?

It won't happen

again, boss.

Definitely.

this Thank

I would like, to say also- Yeah ... have you

he's gone out,

jogging again today

on the recording in rather longer shorts.

Longer shorts.

Yeah,

I

think he decided that was a mistake.

I think

Mrs. Burnham's had a

a word

about

away

the 1970s

pants and,

yes,

Can, I just

ask-

Yes ... the

assembled...

and this is a

a serious political question.

do

you think on the day he knew he was going to be photographed

running about, the shorts were an error, carelessness, deliberate?

I

think he's got quite

legs,

and he thought he'd- I thought they looked good ... why not show them off?

I'm sorry,

but I'm,

a

fan

of the short-shorted

Burnham.

Yeah.

Yeah,

There we go.

we go.

that's, the

answer I

was hoping for.

Adam- UK's code for the boys

There's

your focus group.

Yeah.

right.

Now, for part two,

Adam, you have reincarnated

as Saba Salman.

Hello,

Saba.

Hello.

Saba

of Rotten Boroughs.

You were last on

a couple of, episodes ago when we were

doing a pre-mortem for

the local elections,

and now it's time

inevitably for the

post-mortem.

How did you

do?

How were

your predictions?

Was

there anything

you were right or

wrong about?

think my favorite bit was when one of the election experts, and we had many-

... Mm-hmm

Professor

John Curtice said, "Really no one's very popular." and that for

me kinda summed up a lot

of what was going on.

Nobody seemed very happy apart from,

a lot of Reform, candidates who obviously got in.

So I think largely our

predictions were pretty spot on.

we talked about fragmentation, we talked about the multi-parties, standing.

the

fact that, a lot of new candidates are coming in with no experience,

that's,

That

one of

your points.

That was

one of

points,

and not just restricted to a single party.

So I think, if you look at the map of England, if you're looking at England,

down the right-hand side, you've got the teal, a chonky teal bit, which is Reform.

down in the boot on the left southwest sort of side, you've got the

orange segment.

moving up,

it's no longer a red wall,

more like a

red windowsill- Trellis maybe.

Yeah

... or a trellis,

veranda- lots of holes in it.

Yeah

... windowsill, something like that.

and then in London, you come to London, and it's just a

complete mess.

so it's a bit more

Jackson Pollock-y, I think- ... there.

That's London for you.

Yeah.

Yeah, so round the outside of London you've got some blue.

You've

still got some Tory boroughs.

The doughnut,

as I believe- The doughnut ... they used to call it.

Yes.

Yes.

Like the idea of outer London.

I like that

analogy.

Yeah.

Yes,

it's more down to earth than the Jackson Pollock, but I like that Yes.

and you've got Havering, in

the east that's gone, to Reform.

some Green action going

on.

And then other boroughs, Croydon, for example, that we feature a,

lot in the boroughs, which has suddenly got five different parties.

So you've got Labour, Tory, independent, Reform, Green

No overall

control but a Conservative mayor who just scraped in-

Oh ...who

who we've just covered in the boroughs, which means that

although there's no overall

control, the swing is with the Tories, so effectively it's

Conservative- Conservative ... run.

can

I ask about the phenomenon you described of people with

very little experience, getting

in?

What is a more common

route for people who are thinking about putting their hat in the

ring to become a counselor?

What's the normal route which is being deviated

from here?

I think most of the people who've proved they can do the job come

up through the community network.

so they might be, a particularly active resident.

they've

in the area locally.

but what we've seen with this surge of 1,500, particularly the Reform councilors,

is people coming in with not much clue.

and that literally extends to.

not knowing

which Council,

you've just been elected to.

So

there's

somebody,

a

shout-out to Kidsgrove News, a local independent news

site, which, reported that a,

councilor who was, elected to Newcastle-under-Lyme

Borough Council, rocked up at Kidsgrove Town

Council, which is a parish, because she got confused.

about the name of the ward in Newcastle, Town Ward.

so she therefore- I can... I'm confused to be fair

You're confused.

there

you go.

Let's

give her some credit.

But I wasn't

st- I wasn't

to be

elected there, so you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's this- If it had been a Newcastle upon

Tyne and Newcastle-under-Lyme

situation- Yes

then you'd got really worried.

admittedly

it

is confusing.

Although I

would

like

to think that, most people who put themselves forward for this- Yes ... would

probably have checked where they were standing a- and why, and know.

and the backdrop to this is that the election agent was a certain

Jonathan Gullis, who eagle-eyed readers, i readers might remember.

I think he

was appointed as an undersecretary by Liz Truss, so-

... whether or not,

know,

his latest

protege

lasts longer than a lettuce, I don't know.

but The Truss,

the Truss magic lives on.

I know,

doesn't it?

and then over in Suffolk,

we've got a situation where the new Reform leader has come in

and said, "We need some training

to

get up to speed.

so we think we need

about six months of training and then an intensive day for our raft

of councilors." And I think to most people who don't know a lot about local

government or public sector, most of us hire people for a job that know

how to do it,

as opposed to turning

up

and going, "Where do I start?"

we're not talking about internships.

We're talking about directly

elected officials- Yeah ... who are, who have a job to do

and are controlling budgets.

But there is some training and briefing if you're

" newly elected as a

councilor- Yes, of course.

I presume.

Yeah.

there, there's

all sorts of things.

There's,

you have your political group in a

council.

you might wanna do your own research, perhaps.

But- look at the council handbook, download it.

there's also something called the Local Government Association, for

example, which is a membership body,

that most councils belong to, and within

that, each political party has a presence.

So at the LGA, Local Government Association, you have your

own little group office.

And interestingly, I have been checking,

and the Green Party does not appear to be represented, at the

LGA with its own political office,

which

is interesting.

they might have chosen not to, but considering they've come in with a

bunch of councilors and now control four councils, and they've got these mayors,

they might wanna have a presence there.

Whether it's the website's not been updated, I

don't know.

But it's just

interesting,

one of the interesting things about Hannah Spencer running for that seat in Gorton

and Denton, she's got a family who lots of them have worked in politics, and that was

just completely never mentioned, right?

It was all about

she's a plumber.

She's got a

a normal

job,

she's just happened.

This is, she's stumbled into politics almost because that would

seem to be a much more appealing

message to people.

And that seems to be

what you're

about, right?

That actually there's a

l- a

sort of love

for

the fact

that you're a, quote-unquote,

"ordinary person," not a career politician.

I think it's difficult.

I absolutely agree That if you're a bit edgy, you've got no

experience, let's give it a go.

I'm learning on the

job, I think where a lot of

people, who, vote have a problem with it is That you are

trusting

in somebody who

has absolutely no idea what they're doing.

I don't mean Hannah Spencer.

there are exceptions.

There are people who've been rumbling around their communities- doing great

work, painting the community center or whatever it is, being a teaching

assistant, whatever it may be.

They're really embedded in their communities, and

they've, got no,

political career.

they don't wanna climb the gl- greasy pole.

But then on the flip side, you've got people, like, you know, well, we

talked about the Warwickshire, teenage Warwickshire leader before in the

last podcast I was in, George Finch, who clearly has his eyes set firmly

on

Westminster.

Is

the argument that

that

the

officers are meant to know how to do this

stuff

so

you're not

completely saying, it's hopeless.

None of these people know how to do anything"?

There are- There is a group of non-political people there already.

Absolutely.

So

if you use the analogy, in a way of, central government, you've got

the elected member, and then you've

got, the civil servants who know what they're doing.

and I think what's interesting about what's happening

now,

is I'm sure what happens in central government, is that

you've got all of these,

many,

officers, paid officials who are non-political going, "Oh my God,

what is going on here?" because all of a sudden you've got a

bunch of new people coming in.

suddenly maybe your council's gone into no overall control, so that means,

as we said last time on the podcast, that decisions may take longer-

to

get through.

and certainly,

on Rotten Boroughs, we have had communications from people who work in

councils, whose name shall not be revealed-

who are saying, in all seriousness, "We're really worried.

We're really worried because we've had these policies, we've

got, kids with special needs, we've got housing crisis, we've

got bankrupt council, and we've suddenly got people who

have never represented, a local, community before."

some people,

as you've said, have applied and they've got no experience, and that

there's a slightly different phenomenon, which is where you've got, as we say,

paper candidates who didn't expect

to

to win at

all, didn't think they would,

are,

really just there to be a

name to represent their party or the party they support, and then they

end up winning.

That's right, and

I think we saw some of this with the last local elections

particularly, again, with Reform.

but I think also there are, there are reports that this happened

amongst Green candidates as well.

And so what you have is a few days after the election results were announced,

you had stories of certain councilors, I believe they were Reform councilors,

going off on holiday,

because they didn't really think they'd get in and quite fancied a break.

and I think, according to Mark Pack, who's a Lib Dem peer,

who has a very good tracker,

keeps track of, the amount of councilors from Reform

who've

departed for various reasons.

I think we've had about 10 who've left since May the 7th-

7th-

this year.

That's quite a

lot.

That's,

quite a lot.

In addition to the 70 or so that had left bet- you know, b-

from last May, the last lot of

local elections to now.

and that's money, "Right, yes.

Because they'll have

the

...those...

They,

you can't just appoint new people to those positions.

They'll have to rerun those elections.

given that, Reform in particular is about efficiency, and, let's

not single out Reform here.

It happens with other parties as well.

but if you're trying to save money and the average by-election

and award costs about 20 grand-

That's not a great

use of funds, is It And we?

mentioned Croydon, for example.

Lynn's example there at the moment where the green, candidate was suspended

shortly before the election, but too late to be taken off the, ballot.

paper.

Now this has happened, this happened with an Aspire candidate in Tower Hamlets.

It's happened with other candidates elsewhere.

and so he remained

on the ballot He got

elected, and he's currently under

investigation for allegedly making antisemitic, sorry, perpetuating- posts

online.

Can I say that the reaction to the lack of experience from my reading of the boroughs

is,

they come

in

and they say

it's

day one.

We're going

to, eliminate all the waste.

We're going to free

Palestine.

"We're going

to

stop woke nonsense," whatever the agenda

is.

And then day

four they say,

"I think we're gonna have to put the rates

up."

up."

Yeah.

Yes.

And, they come in exactly

that.

They come in and say, "We're gonna stop the boats.

We're gonna fix the NHS.

we're gonna get rid of, with the climate change non- nonsense, we're

gonna get rid of net zero." and what they fail to realize is, number one,

local authorities have no,

duty, no responsibility, no power to do that.

But number two, there are s- processes you have to go through.

So for example, you come in, you have to wait for the

full council meeting to be elected, for example, as the leader

you have different committees.

There's all sorts

of machinations that people don't know

about.

the point

you

always make is

there really

isn't any money.

No,

absolutely.

They're not pretending

there's

no money.

No.

And- there

isn't any money.

but we didn't

hear much of that during

the

election,

did

we?

No.

And I think that, there is no money, and that money, has not

been there for a long time.

So it's successive years where there's less and less money

coming in from local government.

So obviously you're having to raise

the council tax.

So one of the

areas we've talked about in the past is

Worcestershire County Council, where they've

had to put up, council tax by, 9%.

now, that's a Reform

council that was voted in

last year.

and it

it inherited

massive financial difficulty.

So coming in saying, generally the party, approach is council tax low,

they've obviously been unable to do that.

Worcestershire in particular, if we want to We talked about the predictions.

so one interesting thing is to look at the councils that have

been run, by Reform in, last surge.

a year

ago they came in, say Worcestershire.

That's completely imploded.

the leader of the council has been ousted by a coalition of other

parties.

she's been suspended,

and her son, who's also a Reform councilor in a borough council just

on lower tier, has also been suspended.

what do you say there, Saba,

about,

people

not realizing

there's

no

money and then

coun-

councils being voted in and then discovering there's

no money,

This

is

just

smaller version of the entire national

condition,

isn't

it?

Mm. I

there's

no money, We

all think there

we

We

all want there to be more money, but there isn't any,

and we keep

voting for

people who say, "Don't worry, we'll sort

out more money."

I think you've summarized rotten boroughs up really well there.

So I think we just, yeah, cancel the next edition and just

put that quote on.

Good.

But yes, effectively.

but

that's interesting because

Worcestershire is where I'm from,

and it's not a

it's not a place that's doing

badly, right?

It went

Labour in the

2024 general election,

and we, haven't

had a Tory

throughout that time.

That's the city center.

this is the regional.

But

there are much more deprived places in England than Worcestershire.

So that to me, I

don't know if

you've looked

at the figures, but I would've thought

that's a social care

one of our great themes in this is that adult social care

has blown, has just blown...

No matter if you've got a fairly

stable council base

of

taxpayers, you just can't meet your obligations, right?

That's-

No, you can't, and it's not getting any

easier.

People are living longer.

and there's no way out for any council

and so I

suppose,

Saba, you've

been looking at the local elections from a year ago and seeing where they've

ended up today Worcestershire's imploded.

Worcestershire's

imploded.

that's, right.

Alarming figure here, yeah.

But it was quite split, wasn't it?

Didn't it have some Reform and some Green and some this and some that

and... was yeah ......there was

no coherent message from the voters of

Worcestershire about what they wanted.

No,

And I think that's, just, going back to S- Sir John C- Curtis' quote about

nobody's very popular, that this is that fragmentation that, on one hand, isn't it

fantastic that we've got all this choice?

And so I can be represented and two doors down, there's my, neighbor who's voting in

a

sort of different way- also has representation.

But

in one sense you can say,

that's great, it's democratic," but in another

it leads to, deadlock.

and some very interesting characters getting elected.

that'll keep Rotten Boroughs full.

I

I don't

think there's any danger

of

you

running

of stories.

I can safely

say that

we are well-served- for color, intrigue, corruption, and,

dodgy political characters.

You mentioned last time that the, Reform campaign was launched in Sunderland.

Nigel Farage went himself and did a 2,000-seat venue, and it was,

big razzmatazz 'cause he was very optimistic about their chances there.

How did that

turn out?

it turned out well in terms of

they've got the council.

however, not long after they did that, there were allegations

of, racism, sexism, and then the usual stuff from several candidates, including

one who wanted to melt down Nigerian

people and fill potholes

with them.

Richard

Tice

was asked about that comment, and

essentially really l- low-balled it, and slightly dismissed it, I think,

which was I I found that quite shocking.

And James Cleverly, who I think his background is Ghanaian-British, was

like, "Come on." It was presented as this kind of, he said Nigerians get out.

And it was like he, he explicitly made a remark where he's "Nigerians are,

good for nothing apart from melting down to fill potholes." Like- That's

right ... most obvious racism, clang-

A- and I think ever heard ... that, in itself was astonishing, but what

was even more shocking was, as you say, Richard Tice going on to talk

to Laura Kuenssberg about this, and she said, what do you think?"

And he said, "No, we're just here to celebrate the

success."

That is

racism with a

local twist, isn't it?

That is it for this episode

of Page 94.

you so much

to Helen,

Sabbot/Adam, Ian.

we'll be back

soon with our Paul

Award specials.

I'm

gonna be interviewing all the

shortlists for this year's, Paul Foot Award.

It's A brilliant

raft of stories

that have been nominated, and we'll

be back, after

another fortnight

with a regular episode.

But

before then, if you'd

like

more Rotten

Borough stories,

you'd like

more stories about what's going

on

at the national level, there

even

be more quizzes.

I don't know, Ian.

That's up

to you.

In the next issue

of

Private Eye, they are

available on

If you want

to

subscribe,

subscriptions are available

well.

Just go to

private-eye.co.uk.

until

then, thanks to you for listening, and to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.

Bye for now.