Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast
hello, everybody, and welcome to
episode of
94.
My name's Andrew
Murray,
I'm here in the iStudio with Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen, and
Ian Hislop.
I'm gonna start off by saying to you
all,
Hey.
hey And I say
Hay because we're going
the Hay
Festival.
We have a live Page 94.
That
was
the cheesiest yeah,
think.
I
liked
it.
yeah.
you would ... I'm gonna
old time.
Yeah.
we're doing a live
event
the Hay
Festival, which is
easy commute
from anywhere in the United Kingdom.
Incredibly fast.
Yes, we're gonna be
setting the world
to
rights, as
we always
do, but this time
be doing
it live.
so
that is gonna be on
the
27th
of May.
What day was that?
27th
of
May.
that a Wednesday
by any
chance?
I believe
it
is.
And what time would that be, Andy?
Oh, early evening.
evening.
Just turn up whenever.
7:30, I think.
But it might be,
6:30. So cut that
I think.
we
should
find
out.
to be fair, they
can't do it without us, so if we only turn up at 7:30.
Yeah.
Hang on
7:00. Phew.
Neither of
the ones that
we completely
suggested could be correct.
And all
four of us are doing
separate events around
Hay.
So also on
27th, Ian, you're gonna be
interviewed, by Paddy O'Connell.
Yes.
And
I'm gonna be talking
about
my favorite books
that have influenced
my
life
and it says career, but I
think that might
be
it.
Adam, you're
doing an event,
also
the 27th, about tribalism in
politics.
Apparently with Penny Mordaunt and Guto Hari.
Wow.
together at last.
Will
you be carrying a
big
sword?
I
will.
Yeah.
Yeah, we all have to.
Excellent.
That's
contractual,
yeah.
Helen,
you're
gonna be- talking about
America
250.
I've got
a really
panel.
They're all just so much
more impressive than
than me.
What is it?
The hemi-semi-sesquipali-centenary of America or
something.
Semi- There's some complicated word
that means
250 years.
250.
years.
Fantastic.
and I'll
be doing
an event on
26th
at 2:30 PM about my new book.
Have
you got a new book
out,
I've
got a
new book out.
Is that
available to pre-order by any chance?
Do you know?
I
think it is.
Great news.
I thought we didn't
read
out adverts on this podcast.
Only for us, though.
I'm
sorry,
yeah.
There's been
a change of
policy.
can I point
out my
available for pre-order as well?
Yeah.
plug ever.
corner ends.
Yeah.
And
now,
from one, exciting race between four very
dynamic candidates,
only
one of whom is a woman, we move to Labor
How
was that?
That
was
that?
Brilliant.
That
was
good.
why
we have to do this?
Why is this all going on now?
Thing
is, I'm
black pilled about this.
I
don't
think any of these
are gonna make any difference to the intractable problems
we've got In our, our...
So I'm just going to,
just going to
enjoy them knifing
other.
the
assures that, that it?
doesn't
matter
really That's a
Game
of Thrones
and
Succession
viewer right there, isn't it?
But
know what I
mean.
It's really quite sad.
I think they've got some very
large
problems in, Britain,
but, if you look at the difference, between... K- Keir Starmer obviously now
drained of all authority.
Angela
Rayner did a very
odd,
mini manifesto where she said she wanted to end freehold.
Which is not really that possible, like
people owning homes.
Okay.
Andy
Burnham gave an
interview
the New Statesman last year ahead of conference, in which he said,
"I w- I will do more borrowing.
I won't be cowed by the bond markets." Last person who said that was-
There's Liz Truss ... Liz
great.
And also the
phrase,
we can't be in
Hock to
the
bond markets." Hock is what you
are-
Yeah
if
you,
go
for more borrowing.
It was a
very
strange idea that I don't want to be,
responsible for borrowing a lot, and then have the people I've
borrowed off asking for the money
back.
it
doesn't
work like that.
Yeah, you don't
get
to pick what interest
people
are charging you
on your money, I'm
afraid.
So then we've got Wes Streeting.
We've
got Wes
" Streeting.
I don't know if he
said anything.
Oh,
actually,
he came... So he
immediately, He, resigned from the
cabinet,
resigned his house.
said, "I've had an amazing time.
We've got waiting list
downs, but that's
it.
I'm leaving." Yeah.
always go out on a
high note.
And then
he went to the Progress conference and said, "By the way, I'd
love us
to rejoin the
EU."
Very funny,
you have to be
quite steeped in Labour
law
to understand why this is so funny, which
I, I understand
that some people
have lives and
fulfilling personal time.
the Labour membership are mustard
keen on the
EU.
They absolutely love it.
So when Keir Starmer was
running in
2020 he said, "I will basically be continuity Corbynism, love that guy, but I
think we could have done a bit more on
antisemitism,
plus I'm much more
keen on Europe than he is."
' Cause he knew this was the way it was safe to dissent from
the leadership line in a way
that the members who were generally very pro-Corbyn
liked.
Streeting has done
exactly the same.
I know you think I'm all in, I'm incredibly right-wing
for a Labour person, but by
the Lord, I
love
EU, right?
It
also
this
secondary, excellently
funny effect of stuffing Andy Burnham, who
will never
be asked whether or not He
thinks
we
should rejoin the EU.
He
has to now, if
his
plan is
fight this by-election and then fight the Labour
leadership election, if it's contested, he needs to get the
members on side.
So in order to get the members on side, he
needs to go, "God, I love the EU.
I wish to be buried in a flag with the stars
on It My mother
is Ursula von der Leyen."
"I,
have a big portrait of Jacques Chirac in my office."
Whatever it might be.
But he's about
to fight a very
reform facing Brexity seat.
So if he says, lads, we'll all be speaking French by Christmas, great
for the second election he's got in his future, very bad for the one now.
So
he is going to have
do some good old-fashioned Ne- New Labour style triangulation
if this becomes an issue.
But it's, not
his
only
' cause he's fighting this by-election, if,
he gets the nomination,
on
the
grounds of
If you
hate the Labour
government,
vote
Labour.
Which is an odd position, isn't it?
You've got to vote
for
him In order to
Keir Starmer out.
Yeah ...essentially.
Here's our
argument.
All, everyone, will
saying, "Hate Starmer? Vote for me." the- I
think Keir
Starmer
should run on that.
Yeah.
platform.
You hate me.
Okay, you hate me.
you
hate me.
But you hate everyone else more.
Can we just come
back to Keir Starmer
for a second?
Yes.
Yeah.
'Cause the chucking
threshold for prime ministers seems to have been creeping downwards, I would say.
Liz
Truss,
I get it.
I get why
she
had
to
go.
Boris Johnson,
Rishi Sunak lost an election.
what's
done?
Nothing.
That's the problem.
Really.
They've
the
haunting thing that k-
keeps coming out again and again is the idea that
people don't know
what he stands for, who he thinks he's for and against, what his vision is.
So the classic idea of the Prime Minister is that
you set the terms of the debate, so people can make decisions because
they know what you
do
in that
circumstance.
And what people report from inside that operation is
that they
don't know
how Starmer would
jump on something.
It paralyzes.
But he's
also not a very
decision-maker
himself, so nobody
knows what to
do.
stuff just gets in this holding
pattern, basically.
With welfare reform,
tried to put
something that was quite tough, didn't get
it,
The
MPs puked, and then they came back with
something less.
with winter fuel, they
tried
and didn't try.
Shabana Mahmood's reforms
to indefinitely to remain.
V- very
hard thing to get past Labour
MPs
who
don't want
vote to be m-
meaner to immigrants.
But you'd have to say, this is it.
I'm staking-- we all got
elected on this manifesto.
You're gonna have to
do it."
and the quote that
I
think
will forever haunt
Starmer is from, Gabriel Progar
and Patrick Maguire's Get In.
hang on a minute.
No, which one is
it?
They've all got in and out titles.
their Get Out?
gentleman's... Yeah.
I saw
Get Out.
Out.
No, it's... No.
didn't
to involve
much Labour
friends.
Yeah.
Jeremy Corbyn
sat
In a chair
and plunged
the,
Underworld.
It
is,
It is,
It's Get
In with the, But,
someone
said it's
the DLR.
It's a driverless train.
No one's driving the train.
and that's what they felt.
They felt that Morgan
McSweeney, his former chief of staff, did have
an idea of what he was doing, but people didn't like it.
Now he's gone.
There's
nothing.
I
I thought the
most
interesting bit of, last
events wasn't actually Wes Streeting going... There, there were also,
before that, there were four junior
who went as well, didn't they?
three of which I must admit I was completely blissfully unaware of
until the point when they sent in their resignation letters.
But one of them was
Jess Phillips, who,
people will
know
about.
I certainly know about.
I thought there was a really
interesting line
Most of the
resignations
letters with that
standard thing of the first paragraph says, "I'm really proud of all
the
stuff I've
achieved in my de- my department.
Here is a list of it,
But we had
disastrous
in
the election, and I think it's time for you to
go.
Sorry."
Jess Phillips was much more in detail about what
thought was wrong
with Keir Starmer.
And
the line I thought was, rather brilliant
line from
she
said, The desire not to have an
means we rarely
make an argument." And it's
that thing you're
talking about.
You don't feel there's a sort of vision there
that he's
pushing through
in the way that, say, strong prime ministers like Tony Blair or Margaret
Thatcher absolutely had their convictions,
and
they were pushing through whether the rest of the party liked it or not.
I
she of course
a minister for, against rather violence against women and
girls.
and she said she, there was a possibility of real changes in
that area, but i-
it
came
threats
made by me
in the light
catastrophic mistakes.
She
was very honest in the letter, and she
said basically
she jumped on the
Mandelson stuff.
Every time that
the Mandelson stuff came up, suddenly the government were very keen to
prove
that they were
the, o- on
the side of doing stuff against, the exploitation of women, and
she
took those
She said, "Yep,
never
want to waste a crisis
to make advancements
for women and girls."
would push things then, and that was the
only way
she found she could
really,
get stuff done.
Wasn't part of
the problem there
was the grooming gangs fiasco was in the background.
And again,
Keir
Starmer
and
his,
operation
were not keen
to
say, We've already had a lot of inquiries."
" Do we
absolutely need
another national inquiry?
This hasn't been ignored and shoved under the
carpet.
This is
a narrative coming from
somewhere else." we covered this
quite extensively in the Eye.
and the idea that,
mainstream journalism from
Andrew Norfolk onward, and then local government and local
inquiries.
I he wasn't keen
to take any
stance on this.
So even the one thing that
Jess Phillips suggested, I would guess, got lost in
the feeling of, "Nope,
we don't want to go there."
Yeah,
I
think that w- with the grooming gangs inquiry, I think there was a, an
argument to be made.
And actually Andrew Norfolk before he died said this, which is you could
just end up spending a lot of money on lawyers' fees and not actually get
any more justice for these victims.
They didn't wanna say that, so it left in this... Labor
MPs were very
about it.
they didn't wanna
go out
and defend
something
that was
change.
look at this with the two-child benefit, cap.
People got suspended.
They got the
Labour whip withdrawn for
policy which is now, a year later, Labor policy.
This is just-- you have to have, even if you're wrong, you have to
tell everyone what you think so
they can be confident deploying
out and
going, and having the
with people in their constituency.
Yeah,
and I
think that
Jess Phillips letter was exactly right about that, I also think the
fact that his panicked, Keir Starmer's panicked response to the local
elections was, "Bring me Gordon Brown and Harriet Harman."
Yes.
That
was the moment, yeah.
Which was, I think everybody in the whole of
of
went What?
It's
really weird with Keir Starmer, though, 'cause there's a combination
that sort of decisive action, but not allies to any sort
of vision, it sometimes seems
like.
So all of those
people were expelled
from the party
or, suspended for kind of six months at a time, I think.
But without any
sort of
to push that through.
when Boris Johnson kicked all of those people out because
they were going against his
Brexit
yeah, it, wasn't
popular with people on the other side, but it was at least a kind
definitive, "This
is what we're doing.
This
the
government's
agenda.
the whole
thing
about getting Brexit through, and that was seen as
a way
doing it.
Whereas
with Keir Starmer, it
just seemed
how
many,
of
your, kind of friends and allies can
you make take the fall for you?
I mean- ...Morgan McSweeney went, Ollie Robbins
went, yeah, there, seemed all sorts of people just seemed to have to fall on
their swords for cockups that, that, that really went all the
way to the top, didn't they?
And it seemed to be odd
that
you bring in two
quite old people from a previous government.
It does suggest to your current
backbenchers-
that none of you are any good.
I've got some jobs going, but you can't have them.
Obviously, I'm going
to give
them to some people who you've already seen
before.
I have to say, most
cartoonists, and indeed nearly everyone on the eye, immediately said,
"Can we have. Peter Madison back?"
'Cause he's another, big figure from those years
be really useful
to
have.
And
again,
I
it, is the fact that Keir can't do
any sort of
management,
which
you know
is a boring thing to point out,
but that,
that clearly is one of the
reasons he
didn't, carry anyone
with him.
It's
odd, something we've talked about ever since the government got in is
the kind of Blairite comfort blanket.
We mentioned
Alan Milburn coming back and
Jonathan Powell, and it's very odd, for Keir Starmer, who doesn't
give any impression of being
deeply steeped
in
labor history, know?
not somebody who kind of swoons
over Clement
Attlee or whatever it might
it might be.
To then have this attachment to
bringing back
Blairite
figures.
Sort of odd, isn't it?
like
reviving, like
Malcolm in the, Middle or
It's just everyone likes
liked
it worked at the time.
Like they've done, yeah.
Yeah, why don't we do this again?
But I wonder how if that
was a,
that was
something that was interesting for Jess.
The other thing she said
in
that letter was "I wanted to put software on everybody's phones that
basically would b- stop children uploading naked pictures of themselves
to the internet." Now, we can have
an argument about
whether or not that's authoritarianism, whatever.
But her way of presenting it was they didn't wanna
have the fight with the tech companies.
And
I think that is a really interesting
thing, is that are you willing to identify villains in
public life?
So Reform have got a very
clear argument about Who they think is
ruining Britain.
Yeah
the Greens have got a very clear argument
about who they think is ruining Britain.
who according to Keir Starmer, is stopping
us being
kind of country he would like us to be?
And I can't, two years in, I can't answer that.
He's come out pretty
strongly
about Reform and, their opinions, and
he's, I think, flirted with actually saying, I
think these people
are, acting in a racist manner, which
is strong prime ministerial language.
But that's
Not enough for You
Being scared of the
tech barons is
a really weird
one,
these guys are not popular.
Yeah.
I know that weirdly Tommy
Robinson on Saturday got
his
crowd to
three cheers for Elon Musk,
but I'm not sure the country at large want to
give
cheers for Elon, Musk.
they, these are quite identifiable
baddies that
that Yeah that
... it might not
hurt him to go up against.
they're
a bit like
sort of water
bosses.
There are a few
obvious villains
out there
who, you could set yourself
against and define yourself that way, I'm sure.
Yeah,
you can see- Andy Burnham
what
he's doing there.
He's come out against, smartphone use in school, and he
came out at the,
maybe
at the weekend or maybe it was an
archive clip, against VAR
in football,
which
just one of those things that is, I think, unites most football fans- ... is
that they hate the idea that you stop a match for six minutes while some
people in a shed look at the clip and
then you start again.
Yeah,
And- Experts, boo.
Sorry.
No, but that
referee was supposed
to
the expert, and he's actually-
there.
Anyway, but the he has identified they're... Who likes
FIFA?
Who likes
the FA, right?
Who likes
faceless corporations that make a load of,
of money out
fans- Yeah
and don't s- you know, FIFA are in the middle of putting,
halftime breaks
into
the World Cup final so they can flog more adverts and make it like the Super Bowl.
These people are
not popular, and if you're a government, you're
you're
allowed
to,
you're allowed
to hop... This comes back
to your Deirdre Barlow
of Tony Blair.
Free-
My Deirdre Bar- Tony Blair.
But
he Suddenly got into Free Deirdre.
You
jump on the bandwagon.
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
This was when she went to prison,
Fictional character, my lad,
in Coronation Street.
Oh, thank for a minute
there, Dave- ... Tony
had
campaigning for someone
the
real
world.
But, she was on
Coronation
There was a storyline,
and Tony Blair shamelessly
onto
And then- Yeah ... it hadn't seemed-
haven't seen- I mean, the
Jas, the Jas Phillips one in
particular seemed because not only
is it going up
against
tech bar- tech barons, but it's also attempting to stop child pornography.
this seems to me this would be
quite a popular move with the public.
There's not- Yeah, there's not a huge pro child pornography lobby out
there in politics that
you're gonna lose a vote to.
there's
is
... a
a big
reform chunk who are
fixated and concentrate
on defending children.
Yeah.
this
is
their agenda.
This was the-
What
about SLAPPs?
You're always telling
SLAPPs would be incredibly
popular for a government
bring
in.
Yeah,
SLAPPs,
which seem to
have completely fallen
by the wayside.
talked about this,
in, in in the last podcast.
so this is strategic lawsuits against public participation, and
there's been a lot of, research
come out for FOI, requests by various people
which
show that the lobbying
by
Society of
Media Lawyers,
our friends at Carter-Ruck and Mishcon de Reya and places like that,
has been very, successful.
it's gone completely
the back burner.
I, again, it's,
greedy
lawyers
and sort
of Russian oligarchs and people
suing journalists.
It
would,
I
think, be
fairly popular with
the
to go up against these people.
It would certainly get the newspaper editors on
side, wouldn't
it?
I
think we would unequivocally
that people
stopping-
here.
Trying
to put
us out
business- Yeah
would,
would go
down quite
well,
But none of these things, I think, clear the public opinion threshold.
I know, I, see what you're saying about SLAPPs, but I don't think-
Most members of the public care too much about slaps in particular.
Sorry.
No, they
though.
But they, I know they should.
I know they should.
But none of these things,
seem to clear
the bar.
It just feel, feels like a slow agglomeration of
irritations that have sapped public support, meaning that eventually
no one's willing to go into bat
for the government.
I, think there's also a
feeling
that, putting, employers' National Insurance up-
Yeah
hasn't helped hugely, and the
figures
are, people are
still
arguing about them, but
not looking terribly
good.
Yeah.
And the economy is, always something that people
will judge you on, and whether it's Keir's fault or not,
he hasn't
sufficiently well that
it
isn't his fault.
If
it's the
fault of,
hangover
from, Russia/Ukraine plus, the next
war in the middle
of, plus,
the, financial crisis, which is still going on, and
dare I say it, Brexit, and
figures are
still suggesting GDP went
down,
4% and everybody's lost out.
You've got to make that case.
If you're in the middle of an economic crisis, you can't just say, "Oh,
it's miserable, isn't it?
And I look miserable."
You
do,
have
to say
why.
And
the case for the unpopular bits as well.
that was the thing with Mrs. Thatcher.
She
was prepared
say, unemployment sadly is the price we're gonna have to pay," which
was a very, unpopular thing
say,
but it felt at least that
there was a sort of vision
a reasoning
behind it?
Whereas I
feel
the
public at the
moment are just feeling
like
the
economy and everything, is
just drifting and
no one is
taking
any, charge
of anything.
Now,
the other case
people
make is
that, Keir Starmer just
doesn't look
like he's having fun.
And it's easy to
see
why you would not look like you're having fun
because
it's...
most people have not seemed like they're having fun in this job, frankly.
Theresa
May did that little
dance, didn't she?
Oh, you're right.
She was having fun
then.
She was away on that time.
that was her happy place.
Boris Johnson
was her happy place.
Boris Johnson seemed to be having an absolute ball, but I don't- Yeah, none of
the
rest
of
us were.
No,
exactly.
So-
Even
Rishi
Sunak looked like he was doing u- useful and important work.
Do you think?
when he got to have his AI
summit, he s- was absolutely thrilled.
That was his- That
was
his high
point.
That
was
his
thing.
And
off, wasn't it?
And
chess-
chessboards
in parks
and con- And maths A-levels,
that made him very happy.
100 chess boards in parks.
But no pieces.
Bring your own
Bring your
own
pieces.
Anyway,
God, that's
And when he tried to u- buy a can of Coke ...and meet members of the public.
And
Oh,
yeah.
And he didn't have
any
get
That
was quite good.
He
up someone
else's car with
petrol,
didn't he?
Oh, we're feeling wistful about Rishi
Sunak now.
Yeah.
is what happens,
There's always-
a nostalgia.
The nostalgia.
kicks in.
Okay.
But you're
right.
there is a trope
in
politics that's called the happy warrior, Which is
basically someone who gets out of bed every morning and they
go, and they
argue
people.
And
actually it works in journalism too.
lots of these
YouTube creators, they just love having a ruck.
They get up... r- I... The thought for me of
being invited on some show to argue the toss with somebody makes, fills
my heart with dread these days.
some
people love it, They get out and they, absolutely thrive on it.
And actually,
in today's attention economy, you've
gotta be
out stuff all the time.
You've gotta seem like you're really up for a ruck.
And this is a
thing that Nigel Farage And Zak Polanski are both constantly doing.
They're,
almost
n- they're almost never
not making a TikTok, as far as I can tell.
They're
just-
They're like
95th percentile- Yeah
... extroverts.
They
their energy
Yeah ...from
being in company.
Now, Nigel
Farage in the
Reform podcast,
which I
be the only
listener to, he has got so many
people waiting to see him on
stage, and there's an overflow room.
So he goes
and
does an hour of Q&A in the overflow
room beforehand.
that is, for him
that
is politics, is people
questions, him shooting the breeze with them.
You get that same vibe
off Zak Polanski.
the
Q&A sessions don't involve the
question- why did you take that money?
and why
you
declare it?
I... He seems less keen to answer that one.
Yeah.
that
ruck
is not one
having.
No.
But
that
that was also the case with Jeremy
Jeremy Corbyn
loved being asked, "When will the socialist paradise come? How
Can I hear more about your jam?"
And rather less about, "Do you think we should pull out of NATO
then, like you always used to say?"
Can I... finish, can I
finish?
Can I finish?
Yeah, All
right, love.
All right,
down.
Now,
Let's turn
to someone who does seem like they
enjoy public
life,
who's Andy
Burnham.
Yeah, for some of us, this is,
the whole episode is bringing back me- memories of the long 2010s-
when Andy Burnham
on the periphery of, of my
vision for all of that, time.
Actually, I was on a I was on a panel with him in Labour Party conference in 2021.
God, I'm
getting nostalgic for Labour
Party conferences past.
This is worse than nostalgia for Rishi Sunak.
he is, he has enjoyed being m- mayor of Manchester.
I think people generally find the mayoralties to be the right
size of job, where you can
actually do things, and people see them in their everyday lives in a
way that at prime ministerial level has become much more a struggle.
S- Sadiq Khan has been, what?
He's in his third term as mayor of London now.
He's majored on, mostly on clean air
and, things like that, and he's, he's written books about it.
He's And that's something he really likes talking about and going into bat for.
And Ulez is another example of it.
And if it- And he
he loves doing,
cross-religious stuff.
That man has been to a
a lot
synagogues.
Can't, you
him
keep him out.
Okay.
But, he, sees the ambassadorial role of being, London's
voice as Well, yeah- as being really important.
And again, does
seem to be enjoying
more.
But yeah, so Andy Burnham's path to glory is, there's a selection
meeting at the NEC this week.
Technically, Starmer has got
the votes on the NEC
to block it, but I think there would be an actual riot if he did.
Okay.
candidate selection, again,
quite
brave person than the rest of Labour to run against him for that
selection, so we'll see how that goes.
But then, then he's got to, a, really difficult challenge to win
that seat.
His chances are looking pretty good.
But the, specific, so it's Makerfield on the outskirts of Wigan, and it
just returned all Reform councilors in the latest group of local elections.
So
why do you think his chances look pretty good then?
Because he is popular in that area.
he's got incredibly good public profile.
Who are Reform gonna run that's gonna have an equivalent profile to
him?
Matt Goodwin
lastly.
It could be
good Matt Win.
Matt Goodwin.
in
beard.
be Good Matt Win.
Matt Goodwin in a beard.
but
if Reform could find somebody with his popularity and name recognition.
And the other thing is it's a by-election.
It's not the general election.
Reform's voter base is more people who left school at 18, more
low information voters, people
who
aren't massively engaged by politics.
Those people don't
tend to turn out in by-elections in the way
that college gr- college graduates, I'm so American.
University graduates- ...people who read a newspaper consistently,
all those
kind of
people
are much more likely... like the f- the conditions in a by-election are
are more favorable to Labour.
But
they said that about local elections, didn't they?
And then a lot of Reform voters did
turn up this
time.
Yeah.
it might just be that they're people...
my, main fear for Andy Burnham in this is what I think of as the Boaty McBoatface
problem, which is I think there might
be a lot
people... who think, "You really want
to
prime minister.
This is essentially a by-election to be prime minister."
Yeah.
"Wouldn't it
funny if we just voted
against you and stopped you?" Much like voting
for the, a ship to be named
Boaty McBoatface.
That's the banter
outcome.
But-
There is a
isn't there, of
people not, lo-
of people in constituencies not liking being used
this way.
there was the Leyton by-election in '64 when
Harold Wilson
was trying to get
someone in.
You're
laughing at me.
Oh, yeah.
No, Leyton, '64.
Yeah, '64.
'64. Yeah.
I was,
thinking it was '63,
' 63, but it's '64.
yeah.
With my Professor Sir John Curtice
on-
... ' 64,
Harold Wilson
tried to parachute in
a a someone who he wanted to make
his
foreign secretary.
And the voters just
kind of went, "No, we're not having
We're not doing that
at
all."
And then fo-
all Right.
this is one you have heard of.
of.
same year, I think.
when, Alec Douglas-Home was, appointed as head of the, as leader
of.
Conservative Party without a seat in Parliament.
Ah, yeah.
yeah.
He was
into a seat up in Scotland, And famously Private Eye put
up a candidate against
for exactly this reason,
' cause they objected to
some sort of coronation, and, Willie Rushton ran against
him.
He
didn't get a huge number of votes.
He is still trying.
37 votes, so it wasn't-
brilliantly successful.
37. But- Okay.
But it does tell you something about the kind of mood
on, on,
occasions
when people feel that
people are being parachuted in like that.
One last solution.
Surely Farage resigns his Clacton
seat, stands in this by-election.
Whoever
wins becomes PM.
Easy.
And
then Josh
Simons could take over
in Clacton,
couldn't he?
They could all just musical chairs all around the country.
would- That's a
good
idea,
except
that it's the first time
Farage won in a by-election.
I do not think
- Yeah ... he's going
to give up Clacton,
" easily.
Who's gonna
buy him a house in,
Macces-
Macclesfield?
partner.
His
with her family money.
Oh, that's so true.
Yeah.
That's a
good point.
He probably won't need a donation he
doesn't declare.
aren't
there canals there?
Could he live on a
boat
for
boat?
bit?
a bit?
Can I just
bu- the last point I'd
said
is, when
I read these
resignation letters, all of
them
say, I did a
fantastic job
as Manchester mayor.
I did a fantastic
job as health secretary." I think, why don't you just stay there-
then
and
then you
can all do
brilliant
job, and we could
carry
on.
That's
what I've been trying to say.
Because it's the only time
that anyone is ever
going to listen
you talk about how hard it's been and how
you've done- in your job without
right?
You just have to go, "I tried very hard and I won the 50 meters
swimming medal," and no one cared.
I'm gonna write a letter resigning as host of Page 94, but saying I've driven us
to new metrics and new global audiences.
Yeah, I'm excited.
Okay.
Great.
can you do that
after
this
Yeah, all
will.
'Cause
I've spent time writing
this.
Yes.
we come now
to the quiz.
Helen, give
us the name of
the quiz.
Okay.
Th- You
wrote, this is like
resignation.
I was writing the things
I was... proud of was writing the name of this quiz.
Faction
or Fiction.
Oh.
Hey.
Thank
you
Very
much.
It is, of course, about
the
people
vying for the Labour
leadership-
past candidates for the Labour leadership.
Okay.
With what hashtag did Angela Rayner announce that she'd become a
a grandmother
at the
of 37?
Agrandgela.
Very good.
Hey.
Very good.
in 2015, Andy Burnham wore a T-shirt
declaring that he had never
done what to a
Tory,
Kissed.
Tentatively.
Very
I wrote hopefully.
No, I remember that
phase
people
going around wearing "Never
a Tory" T-shirts.
it is correct.
the update
it was that when the Evening
Standard cornered
at late night
at, Labour Party conference,
he said he had in fact kissed a Tory.
snogging a
Tory, her name was
Octavia, and
went to
Trinity
College.
Oh, I thought you
were gonna say
William
Hague.
If
Which
of
the following
people
has Andy Burnham received fewer
votes
than
in a Labour leadership
election?
A, Ed Miliband, B, David Miliband, C, Ed Balls, or D, Jeremy Corbyn.
It's all of them, isn't it?
It's all of the above, yeah.
you saw
through my ruse.
It's
a trick question, yes.
very good.
in 2010, he
placed
behind both Milibands
and TV favorite
Balls-
... in the first round.
he did beat Diane Abbott, though.
Okay.
Who you remember was lent the vote by- to get in
the
because
David Miliband
" This is quite embarrassing.
We're all white men."
Establishing a precedent that Labour MPs then followed
letting a left candidate in
2015. His name was
Jeremy Corbyn.
That went badly for them.
okay, in 2016,
Owen Smith challenged
Jeremy Corbyn
for the Labour leadership,
and the Labour left successfully painted him
as
a big
pharma shill because of his previous life as a lobbyist for Pfizer.
But which drug was He forced to deny having used?
Viagra.
Correct.
Oh.
Yeah.
He
It was
Viagra.
He
told
Piers Morgan,
asked about
it somewhat inevitably.
Of course he
did, Yeah,
That's for me
and
Mrs. Smith to know about."
Wow.
Yeah, he went
back to university.
Last Labour
candidate that who
could claim to have achieved growth.
It
didn't give him a bump in the polls?
Now
stop it.
Okay.
All
of you,
think about what you've
done.
Also in
2016,
Angela Eagle's Labour leadership campaign... Now, yeah, okay, remember
this?
Yeah
was blighted by what technical difficulty?
A,
she had lost her voice and had to use gestures to indicate her
issues
with Jeremy
Corbyn.
Think
think, yeah, think to
yourself.
B,
one of the Tory leadership candidates
the same time
pulled
out of,
their
during her speech
causing all the journos to
flee.
C, the
day before, BBC News had
accidentally booked her twin, Maria Eagle, to
talk about
the contest
on
Newsnight.
Or
D,
one of the banners at the front of the hall collapsed revealing
Tom Watson hiding behind
it
that's brilliant.
I I
was gonna
say
B, but I remember it being
interrupted, not by Boris Johnson dropping out,
but by him being
appointed foreign secretary, wasn't it?
No, you're smudging things together in your mind.
Am
I?
I Okay.
I think it was-
I
think it
was B.
I think it was-
You think B, you're going B?
the same speech at the same time.
You're
going B?
You're going B?
I like the one where the BBC books the wrong person.
twin, Maria
Yeah.
They were
both in the parliament
same time.
It was B. Ah.
it was Andrea Leadsom who pulled out.
Okay.
Yes.
She went for a question saying- Leadsom ... "Can I take a question
from Robert Peston?" He wasn't there.
Oh.
He'd
left.
Oh.
And that,
it never
recovered.
Her whole, basically her leadership campaign.
It's what they say, if you've
lost Peston, you've lost the leadership,
don't they?
Did Andrea Leadsom drop out because
a
CV
issue?
No, She dropped out- 'cause she said- No
Theresa May won't be able to understand the country 'cause
she doesn't have children.
An incredible Times front page with that
interview with Andrea Leadsom,
and then Stephen Crabb had been sexting a young person inappropriately, and just
the ti- one day, The Times just nuked
two of
them at
the
time.
for any younger viewers, maybe the people on YouTube, just ask
your parents about all this.
Stephen
Crabb.
to
Stephen Crabb.
Just to
specify quite what a brilliant media operator,
And- Andrea
Leadsom was, the
full
was something along
the lines of, "I
wouldn't want to say
this in public
it's really nasty."
"But
Theresa
wouldn't
be a good prime minister
she hasn't got
children," she
said to a journalist with a
tape recorder.
Said
it once-
and-
it once- for the younger people you've just referred
to,
it does
suggest that politics
doesn't just get worse.
Yeah.
It sometimes stays quite the same.
Oh,
that?
was
an...
I feel sad for anyone who can't remember that, 'cause that was also
surely the
one where Boris Johnson was
going
stand, and
the morning of his campaign launch, Michael Gove
knifed him.
and then he
he had to
go and give a speech
saying, "I'm not
going to stand." Yeah.
Yes.
And then
then Michael
And gloriously,
camera was on Nadine Dorries,
who
reacted, who'd been
expecting him to say, "I will be your next
prime minister," and just the, find it
on
YouTube, the look of devastation that creeps
across her face as
she grabs the man next to her's arm.
Oh.
It's worth it
Michael
Gove's finest hour.
Yeah,
definitely.
Okay,
riffing on Gerard Kaufman's famous description of Michael Foot's 1983
manifesto, how did the journalist Chris
Deering once describe the Ed Stone, Ed Miliband's obelisk of
electoral pledges?
the tallest suicide note in history?
Nearly.
So
nearly.
The
Hardest,
Yes,
yeah, that's where I was going.
I've gone back to Owen
Smith
and the
lime.
But,
bike.
It was the heaviest
suicide note
in
history.
Oh, Oh,
yes.
He described, the 1983 manifesto of Labour as the longest suicide
note in
history.
Yes.
I
know who's
winning, but
I'm gonna give you
tiebreaker anyway.
It's Adam
who's winning.
Yeah,
it's Adam
winning.
he knew
about
1964.
In
what year?
The
late
Empire...
yeah,
When pictured out running- Yes
Yes ... in
short shorts, Andy
Burnham was wearing a replica vintage
Everton shirt.
from which period of the club's history
did it come?
Ding,
ding, ding,
ding, 1980.
Oh my God.
I
got a football question right.
Ian and I
are
still trying to
understand the
of reference.
Can I, suggest that's a
sackable offense?
It won't happen
again, boss.
Definitely.
this Thank
I would like, to say also- Yeah ... have you
he's gone out,
jogging again today
on the recording in rather longer shorts.
Longer shorts.
Yeah,
I
think he decided that was a mistake.
I think
Mrs. Burnham's had a
a word
about
away
the 1970s
pants and,
yes,
Can, I just
ask-
Yes ... the
assembled...
and this is a
a serious political question.
do
you think on the day he knew he was going to be photographed
running about, the shorts were an error, carelessness, deliberate?
I
think he's got quite
legs,
and he thought he'd- I thought they looked good ... why not show them off?
I'm sorry,
but I'm,
a
fan
of the short-shorted
Burnham.
Yeah.
Yeah,
There we go.
we go.
that's, the
answer I
was hoping for.
Adam- UK's code for the boys
There's
your focus group.
Yeah.
right.
Now, for part two,
Adam, you have reincarnated
as Saba Salman.
Hello,
Saba.
Hello.
Saba
of Rotten Boroughs.
You were last on
a couple of, episodes ago when we were
doing a pre-mortem for
the local elections,
and now it's time
inevitably for the
post-mortem.
How did you
do?
How were
your predictions?
Was
there anything
you were right or
wrong about?
think my favorite bit was when one of the election experts, and we had many-
... Mm-hmm
Professor
John Curtice said, "Really no one's very popular." and that for
me kinda summed up a lot
of what was going on.
Nobody seemed very happy apart from,
a lot of Reform, candidates who obviously got in.
So I think largely our
predictions were pretty spot on.
we talked about fragmentation, we talked about the multi-parties, standing.
the
fact that, a lot of new candidates are coming in with no experience,
that's,
That
one of
your points.
That was
one of
points,
and not just restricted to a single party.
So I think, if you look at the map of England, if you're looking at England,
down the right-hand side, you've got the teal, a chonky teal bit, which is Reform.
down in the boot on the left southwest sort of side, you've got the
orange segment.
moving up,
it's no longer a red wall,
more like a
red windowsill- Trellis maybe.
Yeah
... or a trellis,
veranda- lots of holes in it.
Yeah
... windowsill, something like that.
and then in London, you come to London, and it's just a
complete mess.
so it's a bit more
Jackson Pollock-y, I think- ... there.
That's London for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, so round the outside of London you've got some blue.
You've
still got some Tory boroughs.
The doughnut,
as I believe- The doughnut ... they used to call it.
Yes.
Like the idea of outer London.
I like that
analogy.
Yeah.
Yes,
it's more down to earth than the Jackson Pollock, but I like that Yes.
and you've got Havering, in
the east that's gone, to Reform.
some Green action going
on.
And then other boroughs, Croydon, for example, that we feature a,
lot in the boroughs, which has suddenly got five different parties.
So you've got Labour, Tory, independent, Reform, Green
No overall
control but a Conservative mayor who just scraped in-
Oh ...who
who we've just covered in the boroughs, which means that
although there's no overall
control, the swing is with the Tories, so effectively it's
Conservative- Conservative ... run.
can
I ask about the phenomenon you described of people with
very little experience, getting
in?
What is a more common
route for people who are thinking about putting their hat in the
ring to become a counselor?
What's the normal route which is being deviated
from here?
I think most of the people who've proved they can do the job come
up through the community network.
so they might be, a particularly active resident.
they've
in the area locally.
but what we've seen with this surge of 1,500, particularly the Reform councilors,
is people coming in with not much clue.
and that literally extends to.
not knowing
which Council,
you've just been elected to.
So
there's
somebody,
a
shout-out to Kidsgrove News, a local independent news
site, which, reported that a,
councilor who was, elected to Newcastle-under-Lyme
Borough Council, rocked up at Kidsgrove Town
Council, which is a parish, because she got confused.
about the name of the ward in Newcastle, Town Ward.
so she therefore- I can... I'm confused to be fair
You're confused.
there
you go.
Let's
give her some credit.
But I wasn't
st- I wasn't
to be
elected there, so you know.
Yeah.
I think it's this- If it had been a Newcastle upon
Tyne and Newcastle-under-Lyme
situation- Yes
then you'd got really worried.
admittedly
it
is confusing.
Although I
would
like
to think that, most people who put themselves forward for this- Yes ... would
probably have checked where they were standing a- and why, and know.
and the backdrop to this is that the election agent was a certain
Jonathan Gullis, who eagle-eyed readers, i readers might remember.
I think he
was appointed as an undersecretary by Liz Truss, so-
... whether or not,
know,
his latest
protege
lasts longer than a lettuce, I don't know.
but The Truss,
the Truss magic lives on.
I know,
doesn't it?
and then over in Suffolk,
we've got a situation where the new Reform leader has come in
and said, "We need some training
to
get up to speed.
so we think we need
about six months of training and then an intensive day for our raft
of councilors." And I think to most people who don't know a lot about local
government or public sector, most of us hire people for a job that know
how to do it,
as opposed to turning
up
and going, "Where do I start?"
we're not talking about internships.
We're talking about directly
elected officials- Yeah ... who are, who have a job to do
and are controlling budgets.
But there is some training and briefing if you're
" newly elected as a
councilor- Yes, of course.
I presume.
Yeah.
there, there's
all sorts of things.
There's,
you have your political group in a
council.
you might wanna do your own research, perhaps.
But- look at the council handbook, download it.
there's also something called the Local Government Association, for
example, which is a membership body,
that most councils belong to, and within
that, each political party has a presence.
So at the LGA, Local Government Association, you have your
own little group office.
And interestingly, I have been checking,
and the Green Party does not appear to be represented, at the
LGA with its own political office,
which
is interesting.
they might have chosen not to, but considering they've come in with a
bunch of councilors and now control four councils, and they've got these mayors,
they might wanna have a presence there.
Whether it's the website's not been updated, I
don't know.
But it's just
interesting,
one of the interesting things about Hannah Spencer running for that seat in Gorton
and Denton, she's got a family who lots of them have worked in politics, and that was
just completely never mentioned, right?
It was all about
she's a plumber.
She's got a
a normal
job,
she's just happened.
This is, she's stumbled into politics almost because that would
seem to be a much more appealing
message to people.
And that seems to be
what you're
about, right?
That actually there's a
l- a
sort of love
for
the fact
that you're a, quote-unquote,
"ordinary person," not a career politician.
I think it's difficult.
I absolutely agree That if you're a bit edgy, you've got no
experience, let's give it a go.
I'm learning on the
job, I think where a lot of
people, who, vote have a problem with it is That you are
trusting
in somebody who
has absolutely no idea what they're doing.
I don't mean Hannah Spencer.
there are exceptions.
There are people who've been rumbling around their communities- doing great
work, painting the community center or whatever it is, being a teaching
assistant, whatever it may be.
They're really embedded in their communities, and
they've, got no,
political career.
they don't wanna climb the gl- greasy pole.
But then on the flip side, you've got people, like, you know, well, we
talked about the Warwickshire, teenage Warwickshire leader before in the
last podcast I was in, George Finch, who clearly has his eyes set firmly
on
Westminster.
Is
the argument that
that
the
officers are meant to know how to do this
stuff
so
you're not
completely saying, it's hopeless.
None of these people know how to do anything"?
There are- There is a group of non-political people there already.
Absolutely.
So
if you use the analogy, in a way of, central government, you've got
the elected member, and then you've
got, the civil servants who know what they're doing.
and I think what's interesting about what's happening
now,
is I'm sure what happens in central government, is that
you've got all of these,
many,
officers, paid officials who are non-political going, "Oh my God,
what is going on here?" because all of a sudden you've got a
bunch of new people coming in.
suddenly maybe your council's gone into no overall control, so that means,
as we said last time on the podcast, that decisions may take longer-
to
get through.
and certainly,
on Rotten Boroughs, we have had communications from people who work in
councils, whose name shall not be revealed-
who are saying, in all seriousness, "We're really worried.
We're really worried because we've had these policies, we've
got, kids with special needs, we've got housing crisis, we've
got bankrupt council, and we've suddenly got people who
have never represented, a local, community before."
some people,
as you've said, have applied and they've got no experience, and that
there's a slightly different phenomenon, which is where you've got, as we say,
paper candidates who didn't expect
to
to win at
all, didn't think they would,
are,
really just there to be a
name to represent their party or the party they support, and then they
end up winning.
That's right, and
I think we saw some of this with the last local elections
particularly, again, with Reform.
but I think also there are, there are reports that this happened
amongst Green candidates as well.
And so what you have is a few days after the election results were announced,
you had stories of certain councilors, I believe they were Reform councilors,
going off on holiday,
because they didn't really think they'd get in and quite fancied a break.
and I think, according to Mark Pack, who's a Lib Dem peer,
who has a very good tracker,
keeps track of, the amount of councilors from Reform
who've
departed for various reasons.
I think we've had about 10 who've left since May the 7th-
7th-
this year.
That's quite a
lot.
That's,
quite a lot.
In addition to the 70 or so that had left bet- you know, b-
from last May, the last lot of
local elections to now.
and that's money, "Right, yes.
Because they'll have
the
...those...
They,
you can't just appoint new people to those positions.
They'll have to rerun those elections.
given that, Reform in particular is about efficiency, and, let's
not single out Reform here.
It happens with other parties as well.
but if you're trying to save money and the average by-election
and award costs about 20 grand-
That's not a great
use of funds, is It And we?
mentioned Croydon, for example.
Lynn's example there at the moment where the green, candidate was suspended
shortly before the election, but too late to be taken off the, ballot.
paper.
Now this has happened, this happened with an Aspire candidate in Tower Hamlets.
It's happened with other candidates elsewhere.
and so he remained
on the ballot He got
elected, and he's currently under
investigation for allegedly making antisemitic, sorry, perpetuating- posts
online.
Can I say that the reaction to the lack of experience from my reading of the boroughs
is,
they come
in
and they say
it's
day one.
We're going
to, eliminate all the waste.
We're going to free
Palestine.
"We're going
to
stop woke nonsense," whatever the agenda
is.
And then day
four they say,
"I think we're gonna have to put the rates
up."
Yeah.
Yes.
And, they come in exactly
that.
They come in and say, "We're gonna stop the boats.
We're gonna fix the NHS.
we're gonna get rid of, with the climate change non- nonsense, we're
gonna get rid of net zero." and what they fail to realize is, number one,
local authorities have no,
duty, no responsibility, no power to do that.
But number two, there are s- processes you have to go through.
So for example, you come in, you have to wait for the
full council meeting to be elected, for example, as the leader
you have different committees.
There's all sorts
of machinations that people don't know
about.
the point
you
always make is
there really
isn't any money.
No,
absolutely.
They're not pretending
there's
no money.
No.
And- there
isn't any money.
but we didn't
hear much of that during
the
election,
did
we?
No.
And I think that, there is no money, and that money, has not
been there for a long time.
So it's successive years where there's less and less money
coming in from local government.
So obviously you're having to raise
the council tax.
So one of the
areas we've talked about in the past is
Worcestershire County Council, where they've
had to put up, council tax by, 9%.
now, that's a Reform
council that was voted in
last year.
and it
it inherited
massive financial difficulty.
So coming in saying, generally the party, approach is council tax low,
they've obviously been unable to do that.
Worcestershire in particular, if we want to We talked about the predictions.
so one interesting thing is to look at the councils that have
been run, by Reform in, last surge.
a year
ago they came in, say Worcestershire.
That's completely imploded.
the leader of the council has been ousted by a coalition of other
parties.
she's been suspended,
and her son, who's also a Reform councilor in a borough council just
on lower tier, has also been suspended.
what do you say there, Saba,
about,
people
not realizing
there's
no
money and then
coun-
councils being voted in and then discovering there's
no money,
This
is
just
smaller version of the entire national
condition,
isn't
it?
Mm. I
there's
no money, We
all think there
we
We
all want there to be more money, but there isn't any,
and we keep
voting for
people who say, "Don't worry, we'll sort
out more money."
I think you've summarized rotten boroughs up really well there.
So I think we just, yeah, cancel the next edition and just
put that quote on.
Good.
But yes, effectively.
but
that's interesting because
Worcestershire is where I'm from,
and it's not a
it's not a place that's doing
badly, right?
It went
Labour in the
2024 general election,
and we, haven't
had a Tory
throughout that time.
That's the city center.
this is the regional.
But
there are much more deprived places in England than Worcestershire.
So that to me, I
don't know if
you've looked
at the figures, but I would've thought
that's a social care
one of our great themes in this is that adult social care
has blown, has just blown...
No matter if you've got a fairly
stable council base
of
taxpayers, you just can't meet your obligations, right?
That's-
No, you can't, and it's not getting any
easier.
People are living longer.
and there's no way out for any council
and so I
suppose,
Saba, you've
been looking at the local elections from a year ago and seeing where they've
ended up today Worcestershire's imploded.
Worcestershire's
imploded.
that's, right.
Alarming figure here, yeah.
But it was quite split, wasn't it?
Didn't it have some Reform and some Green and some this and some that
and... was yeah ......there was
no coherent message from the voters of
Worcestershire about what they wanted.
No,
And I think that's, just, going back to S- Sir John C- Curtis' quote about
nobody's very popular, that this is that fragmentation that, on one hand, isn't it
fantastic that we've got all this choice?
And so I can be represented and two doors down, there's my, neighbor who's voting in
a
sort of different way- also has representation.
But
in one sense you can say,
that's great, it's democratic," but in another
it leads to, deadlock.
and some very interesting characters getting elected.
that'll keep Rotten Boroughs full.
I
I don't
think there's any danger
of
you
running
of stories.
I can safely
say that
we are well-served- for color, intrigue, corruption, and,
dodgy political characters.
You mentioned last time that the, Reform campaign was launched in Sunderland.
Nigel Farage went himself and did a 2,000-seat venue, and it was,
big razzmatazz 'cause he was very optimistic about their chances there.
How did that
turn out?
it turned out well in terms of
they've got the council.
however, not long after they did that, there were allegations
of, racism, sexism, and then the usual stuff from several candidates, including
one who wanted to melt down Nigerian
people and fill potholes
with them.
Richard
Tice
was asked about that comment, and
essentially really l- low-balled it, and slightly dismissed it, I think,
which was I I found that quite shocking.
And James Cleverly, who I think his background is Ghanaian-British, was
like, "Come on." It was presented as this kind of, he said Nigerians get out.
And it was like he, he explicitly made a remark where he's "Nigerians are,
good for nothing apart from melting down to fill potholes." Like- That's
right ... most obvious racism, clang-
A- and I think ever heard ... that, in itself was astonishing, but what
was even more shocking was, as you say, Richard Tice going on to talk
to Laura Kuenssberg about this, and she said, what do you think?"
And he said, "No, we're just here to celebrate the
success."
That is
racism with a
local twist, isn't it?
That is it for this episode
of Page 94.
you so much
to Helen,
Sabbot/Adam, Ian.
we'll be back
soon with our Paul
Award specials.
I'm
gonna be interviewing all the
shortlists for this year's, Paul Foot Award.
It's A brilliant
raft of stories
that have been nominated, and we'll
be back, after
another fortnight
with a regular episode.
But
before then, if you'd
like
more Rotten
Borough stories,
you'd like
more stories about what's going
on
at the national level, there
even
be more quizzes.
I don't know, Ian.
That's up
to you.
In the next issue
of
Private Eye, they are
available on
If you want
to
subscribe,
subscriptions are available
well.
Just go to
private-eye.co.uk.
until
then, thanks to you for listening, and to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.
Bye for now.