Simon and Tom Sleigh - original
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Simon Gartshore: [00:00:00] So there's any background noise, it just gets removed. Really? Yeah, it's incredible. That's great. All right. Yeah. Good morning. So welcome to Kanda at UK Reef. I'm Simon Gartshore, the Deputy Managing Director at Kanda Consulting. Today, we're delighted to be talking to Tom Sleigh, who's recently been reelected for a second year as Chairman of the City of London's Corporation's Planning and Transportation Committee.

Simon Gartshore: In your second year, Tom, you have an extremely busy in tray, um, continuing to steer the corporation through the adoption of its new city plan, with the recommendations due, as we understand, any day. And to add to the excitement, a new deputy. Mm-hmm. And, um, obviously the challenge of steering the city through the forthcoming provisions of the, uh, Planning and Infrastructure Act as well.

Simon Gartshore: So those are some of the key things we look forward to discussing today. But, uh, firstly, um, Tom, as I said, congratulations on your reelection.

Tom Sleigh: Thank you.

Simon Gartshore: And a nice easy question to start with. What do you look back [00:01:00] on most fondly from your first twelve months in the chair?

Tom Sleigh: I think it's... So remember, I came to the role as planning chair kind of slightly by surprise.

Tom Sleigh: Mm-hmm. Um, I wasn't the deputy before, and, and precedent is typically the deputy becomes the chair. So I kind of got dropped in the role. Um, and it's not that planning was entirely new to me, but planning at that level and the detail you need to be across as chair was new to me. So pleasant surprise was actually getting up to speed.

Tom Sleigh: We have an amazing team, um, in the corporation who've helped me do that. People across the sector have been really helpful. I've really enjoyed it. I think it's, it's the best job in the corporation- Mm ... is being planning chair. Um, I think also just a major reflection is it works well. Um, and we hear so much about the planning system nationally not working, and I think there are good arguments for why it, it, actually that's probably correct.

Tom Sleigh: [00:02:00] But actually in the city, it by and large does, and being part of this kind of functioning system is nice- Yeah ... and kind of reassuring.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. Fantastic. And obviously a year-end's also a great point to take stock. So any, any disappointments along the way? Um, and if so, anything you've, you feel you've sort of really learnt from those in the first twelve months or challenges?

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. I think, I think, um, the kind of pace of implementation of national planning reform has been perhaps a bit slower than those of us who are pro-growth want. And I think the, the planning reform proposals are welcome, but perhaps don't really go far enough to address some of the critical issues. Um, I think in, in the city, actually- It will make some changes, but not major changes.

Simon Gartshore: I think nationally, it, it, it's a frustration. So that, that I think has been a bit of a frustration. I've talked about that as [00:03:00] well. There, there are things that they could have perhaps done, let's say, around Section 106- Mm ... and, and other areas that, for whatever reason, the government didn't, didn't go there for.

Simon Gartshore: But, um, I think that's, yeah, that's been a f- one of the frustrations is, is kind of... But when you see how a system can work well- Yeah ... and you can see how other systems could work better, um, th- this was a real golden opportunity for the government. You feel the sort of government could have listened a little bit more from an authority that, you know, clearly is performing very well in that respect?

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. Uh, very much so. I mean, some of it's resourcing. You know, we have a well-resourced team. Yeah. That said, I mean, we've had our best year just gone for planning applications in, and already the first quarter has been our best quarter in a pretty much a decade. So the team are, like, all guns blazing, very, very busy.

Simon Gartshore: We could always do with more resource. But we know other planning authorities are- Yeah ... less well-resourced. Um, uh, you know, I, I think, for example, having a really [00:04:00] clear policy-led city plan, a local plan, having a kind of th- a predictable planning regime that flows from that is the kind of golden heart of all of this.

Simon Gartshore: Um- The confidence, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and there are probably a few lessons. And we're not saying, like, everyone should do what we do, but wouldn't, wouldn't be a bad thing. No. Indeed. And, and, and on the city plan, obviously you succeeded Trevan at a critical juncture in the, in the process. Um, Harry, it, it can obviously be a slightly odd process for people who have not been to the city plan and examinations in public.

Simon Gartshore: So I guess any reflections that you, you have from, from that experience? And also, are you able to offer any insights as to the next steps of timings or recommendations that may be coming from the inspector? 'Cause we recognize obviously that's really important to the city and then the next stage of the adop- adoption of the plan.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. I, um, I, I said the other day that local plans, like [00:05:00] colonoscopies, you, you, you have to have one every five years. Um, and getting it past is a pain in the backside. Um, a- a- actually, I think in the City of Alice it's, it's taken quite a lot of time and an enormous amount of officer and member time, but rightly so, 'cause it's being heavily scrutinized.

Simon Gartshore: But it's, it's got to a good place. Um, yeah, one of the first things I did as chair was show up to those examinations in public. Mm-hmm. And it was quite peculiar. I mean, it was kind of like quasi-judicial. You've got these kind of two long rows of, uh, uh, in the inspectors and our officers are there presenting the plan.

Simon Gartshore: Then you have a lot of people from different stakeholder groups, so resident groups, churches, heritage groups, who, who kind of try and unpick parts of the plan and explain why they don't like paragraph whatever or section whatever. And, and then our officers defend it, and the inspectors take notes, and then the inspectors came back After that, I'm, I'm pretty much said we think it's sound, make a few minor modifications.

Simon Gartshore: That then goes out to consultation. That's a bit that's happened, and what we're now waiting for is the final response from, [00:06:00] um, the inspectors. And it's a very peculiarly kind of British process. You know, you're like really washing your laundry in public. Um, a-and everyone who's in the room gets a say, and anyone can show up and have a say.

Simon Gartshore: And it's kind of an impressive, um, intersection of, like, democracy, planning, k- growth imperative, communities. They're all, like, meeting there in this room. Uh, it was a... You know, I suppose a planning- Proper melting pot. Yeah ... It's a real melting pot. I mean, I suppose planning committees themselves are like that.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. But this is so important because it, it sets a plan for, in our case, right the way through from now to twenty forty for, like, what can be built, where tall works, where it doesn't work, the kind of baseline assumptions for the amount of new office, office space we want. Um, so it's really-- it was super important.

Simon Gartshore: And then in terms of next steps, when we get those modifications or the, the post-consultation report back, we will put it through our internal governance. I guess that will happen in June and July, and we would hope by, [00:07:00] um, July, so before our summer recess, it would be adopted. Fantastic. And some... Obviously, in the plan, one of the big challenges is, as ever with the City, is that balance between delivering your growth and, and heritage as well, and that's always a, a challenging balance.

Simon Gartshore: Um, and I think we all know and everyone knows that relations, you know, were particularly strained and challenged and have been with, with Historic England, um, particularly over some of the ambitions in the, in the plan. So I guess what have, what have you been doing to improve those relations with, with Historic England over the past year?

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. I think, I think we did see before my time, and I-- so I can't really speak to it in, in, in depth, but before my time, we did see a big uptick in twenty twenty-four in terms of, uh, heritage consultees objecting to planning applications or writing not quite objections, but sternly written letters. So twenty...

Simon Gartshore: And, and that was actually from their numbers. So twenty twenty-four was, was a nadir in that, in that [00:08:00] sense. Look, I mean, the City and me is under slightly new management. Historic England within Emma and Claudia is under new management. Uh, we are working with Historic England as an applicant on things like Smithfield Market and on some of our own assets at the corporation, and we're working with them as a planning authority on, for example, our new Celebrating Heritage Supplementary Planning document.

Simon Gartshore: Um, I think that's gonna be co-authored with Historic England. So we're in a really, I think, engaging, constructive place. I, I think if you also see Historic England's new strategy, I think they're launching it at UKREiiF this afternoon. Yeah. Like, one of their pillars, or I think one of their three pillars is growth, which is fantastic.

Simon Gartshore: You know, we can buy to that. Um, the proof of the pudding ultimately is Will be in the, in the, in the eating. Um, we will have some major schemes coming in the next 12, 18 months. It'll be interesting to see how, how they end up on those actual schemes. But that said, you know, I, I have a good working relationship with them.

Simon Gartshore: I think the city has a good [00:09:00] working relationship. Um, we're trying to do our very best to find common ground, and there are some good examples of where that works. In Custom House, Custom House's Grade I listed building was essentially refused initially. Um, the, the, the new applicants worked really closely with Historic England and our planning team and got to a really good place for a, a significant refit of this Grade I listed, like, riverside property, and it was unanimously approved at committee.

Simon Gartshore: So I, I think it shows if you get the engagement right and the teams will talk and have good relations, you can get these positive outcomes, even on Grade I listed stuff in the, in the Square Mile. That's, I think, certainly good news in terms of, I think, what everyone wants to hear in terms of that ability to work, work and engage, um, you know, with Historic England and build some of those bridges, um, going forward.

Simon Gartshore: Um, in terms of the city plan as well, and this is a slightly unfair question- ... um, looking even further ahead, but obviously it's great that it's, there's a clear ambition delivering at least 1.2 million square meters of new [00:10:00] high-quality commercial space by '24, with much of that growth targeted towards the eastern cluster.

Simon Gartshore: But I think we all recognize that might not even be enough to keep up with demand in the medium to long term. So I guess in the, in that medium to long term, even thinking to 2040 and even beyond, where do you think the opportunities might be to keep delivering growth? Um, and how and where could these be accommodated?

Simon Gartshore: So I, I and, and the city are, like, laser focused on getting city plan passed now. Um, at some point, yes, the conversation will have to move on to what's next. You're right, that 1.2 million new net additional, um, square meters of, of, of, of, uh, office floor space is a floor, it's not a ceiling. CPA have told us they think that's probably 1.8, 1.9, so let's round up to two, like this.

Simon Gartshore: But that's not, that's not what's in the plan. The plan is 1.2. Um, but clearly there's enormous [00:11:00] demand. Um, we have an astonishingly low, astonishingly low vacancy rate in the high-end city core in the towers. It floats around 1, 1.5%, I think, at the moment, which is kind of full. Mm. Now we've got a great pipeline of stuff under construction, 10, 10 substantial schemes, 30 schemes of a decent size across the Square Mile, so this is our, like, year of construction, which will help alleviate that, but probably not for a few years.

Simon Gartshore: So there is this pinch coming, which is true. Yeah. Um, Knight Frank and the FT were wrong, by the way, when they said we were gonna run out. We're not gonna run out. It's just, it's just in popular demand. Yes. Um, yeah. So how do we then accommodate a city that probably needs to grow more? Well, the GLA have just given us new forecasts- Mm-hmm

Simon Gartshore: so they've added a significant chunk of people to the forecast. So they think that our city, which currently hosts 676,000 jobs, by 2050 will be over [00:12:00] 900,000. That's a fair whack. Yeah. You're right, the cluster in the east can definitely accommodate more, and we have some sites in the pipeline. There will be others we don't know about.

Simon Gartshore: There'll probably be some strategic site assembly of interesting sites that can densify. Then you've got the, the thing the city's really good at, which is, um, retrofitting. Yeah. So there is a higher vacancy rate in the Grade B stuff, uh, that can be retrofitted and some of that can be densified, so that helps deliver it.

Simon Gartshore: But then you're right, there is still probably a delta- Mm ... between what we're being told we need to accommodate to help London grow, uh, and what the Square Mile currently can hold. So we have to look at, at how we deliver that. Um, you can't really prejudge all the work, the work ha- but the work is going on.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. Officers are working really hard, um, trying to understand that. I think, you know, we already have a kind of a, a more densified area around the Fleet Valley, for example. Yeah. That's pr- probably an area where we would wanna, um, turn our binoculars. Yeah. Great, and, um, [00:13:00] I, I, I know s- have you... Speaking of sort of, you know, building out and progressing schemes, um, how concerned are you about the fact the city's approved a number of large commercial developments, but relatively few have, uh, progressed to th- their full delivery stage yet?

Simon Gartshore: And I guess linked to that, is there anything more you think the, the city can do to help unlock stalled sites in the face of what I think we all recognize as some quite challenging economic headwinds? Yeah. So viability is an issue. We understand it. Um, I, I'm talking to people in the sector all the time about this.

Simon Gartshore: We, you know, we are looking at, for example, phasing and, um, sto- you know, uh, we're looking at the phasing of, of, of CIL payment in installments. Um, we're thinking about that. We are trying to get our head around, with the sector, what the other challenges might be. You know, we're looking at running sector [00:14:00] 106 in parallel with planning applications, so at least we don't add loads of time, 'cause time is money.

Simon Gartshore: Uh, we, we can't control the big economic headwinds, inflation, and we have to hope what's happening in the Middle East resolves and cost pressures come down. And, you know, I, I don't think- The developers I meet want to bank consents. I think they actually are in the business 'cause they wanna build things.

Simon Gartshore: And yes, it's, it's, it is a source of frustration to me and to the city when we go to enormous amounts of work with officers and then bring the planning committee together and give an approval and then nothing happens. Mm. And we would like to see that unlocked. So we're looking at what we can do within our purview, but it's, you know, we, we aren't ultimately in charge of whether a scheme really is viable or not.

Simon Gartshore: There's just a bit we can do, and we're, we're, we're, we're trying to do that. You know, there are other... There, there's viability, then there's stuck sites, and there are some sites in the Square Mile which are, for no good reason, not being... And these ones are planning permission- Yeah ... not progressing. And [00:15:00] we do remember we are a local authority, and local authorities do have certain constitutional powers to move things on, and we are looking at that.

Simon Gartshore: Um, I'm not saying we will necessarily have to use them, but I think we need to send the message that we're, we're really keen to get stuff done. That's certainly something that other authorities, as you rightly allude to, have used or at least that, that challenge, you know, where sites have been stuck rather than, like you said, they're not, it's not the viability challenge per se.

Simon Gartshore: Um, moving on to your new deputy and, and committee. Obviously, you've got a new deputy in, in Madosh. Um, what are you go- what are your priorities that you'll be looking to focus on with Madosh over the, over the next 12 months as your new deputy chair? It's a great question. I mean, Madosh is, um... He, he's like an innovation and tech guy, right?

Simon Gartshore: So he, he... That's what he does at Lloyds Banking Group, and he was the city's representative on In- Innovate Finance- Mm ... the fintech body and on SIFIT, which is, like, another fintech [00:16:00] space regulatory kind of body. Uh, so he kind of comes from that- Yeah ... space, which is probably quite good timing given that AI is about to kind of, like, do something in the planning system.

Simon Gartshore: We don't really know what. No, I mean, I'm asking everyone, and no one really know what, knows what is happening. Now, I've, I've been using AI really heavily. Mm. Not in any way to come to decisions, but I've, um, I spent all of my Easter ingesting five years of public planning documents, every planning policy in the city- Mm

Simon Gartshore: in London and nationally, building a, um... What's it called? A wiki. So it's like a second brain of gigabytes of data. And then you connect your AI of choice, in my case it's Claude, to that, and then you can ask questions of it. Yeah. So I now, like, have this, like, brilliant second brain where if I was meeting a developer and they owned site X, I can look at site X, it'll pull up all the details.

Simon Gartshore: It will have the kind of potential issues, any permissions that, that have been there. I mean, I'm sure Canda and others- Yeah ... are probably doing exactly the same thing. Yeah. And I found that really [00:17:00] useful 'cause it means I don't have to kinda keep pestering my officers like, "Can you do me a briefing on this?"

Simon Gartshore: I can, like, generally get... And, and it doesn't hallucinate because it's, it's not using the internet. Mm. It just uses actual public documents. So that's really cool. What will it mean for the planning system? I guess some of the repetitive analysis, some of the form filling can be improved, hopefully. Um, you know, ultimately, we employ officers because they bring professional planning judgment to the process, which requires judgment on things like, you know, considerations, materiality, et cetera.

Simon Gartshore: So if it can strip away some of the more repetitive stuff, that gives them more time to do the interesting and human part of their job. There's a risk that AI will, uh, kind of amplify those objecting. And how you manage some of that personal- Yeah ... data through the AI. Again, these are some pretty fundamental questions at the moment- Yeah

Simon Gartshore: aren't they? But to your question, Rajesh is really interested in the space, so it's actually, I think, great timing we have him. That's brilliant news. And, um, [00:18:00] turning to sort of the committee more widely, obviously, by its very nature, with over 30 members on the, on the committee, the City will be significantly impacted by the regulations arising from the Planning Infrastructure Act, particularly the requirement to limit the, um, size of the committee to a maximum of 13 members.

Simon Gartshore: What's your thinking as to how this, um, reduction might be achieved, and when can we expect it to come into force? So I saw a draft of our new governance, um, proposals, which have to come through committee. Um, and it's a bit challenging because we take quite a long time to go through governance, but the actual specifics of the regulations haven't been released by government, government yet.

Simon Gartshore: So we're kind of slightly ahead of what we think they're gonna do. But e- essentially, it will reduce the committee down to ten, 11, 12, 13. The committee will probably decide on that. Um, so planning applications are considered by a subcommittee. Uh, we have other subcommittees, which are elected by the full committee.

Simon Gartshore: So [00:19:00] our working assumption today is the planning subcommittee will be elected by the main committee on an annual basis. I would be on it as chair, the deputy would be on it as deputy. But other than that, it would be just like the others. I... That, that's the proposal we have. We're trying to keep it simple.

Simon Gartshore: You know, in the past, the City's had like ideas for panels and like people representing the north and the south. And I think that's too complicated. I, um, I can't prejudge what the committee will decide, but I think simplicity will be our friend in this. Yeah. And, and the nice thing about it coming in at the end of September, and our, our civic year runs like May to April, is that we only have six months of the new system to like test it.

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. And then if we need to tweak it by the next May, we can. Yeah. So you can sort of- we can expect to see it from the end of September, this, this, this- I think so ... change that you're- I think we legally have to ... looking for. Um, the other thing to say is like national scheme of delegations is much clearer.

Simon Gartshore: Mm-hmm. Define all these things called Schedule 1 applications which just have to be delegated. The interesting part is the Schedule 2s, where it's [00:20:00] up to the nominated officer, who will be our planning director, and the nominated member, who will be me, to decide what goes to committee and what doesn't.

Simon Gartshore: Because the threshold of 10 objections or more is being dropped, so, like, how do we decide what goes to committee? Um, uh, I actually think it'll be more straightforward than people worry about in the city. You can kind of tell the big stuff will still go to committee. Mm. But there will be things that won't go to committee that did in the last year.

Simon Gartshore: So we had a two-hour-long meeting about tables and chairs, I don't think that will go to committee in the future. Mm. Um, I don't, I don't think there'll be a massive change in the workload but, but some of the stuff that really should've been delegated will, will, after September, be delegated. And so that'll allow the smaller committee to sort of focus on those, you know, those big schemes- Yeah, yeah

Simon Gartshore: obviously. And the City, we're blessed, right? Because we get the big schemes. Yes. We get really interesting, substantial schemes, um, which people can get their teeth around. And obviously, um, sort of heading on to- Yeah ... wider conversation around culture, obviously something that I know is, you're very passionate about with [00:21:00] your, your sort of former role at the Barbican Centre and beyond.

Simon Gartshore: Um, obviously culture's really important in destination city. City's got, um, an increasingly clear direction in terms of its inc- cultural expectations of, of developers. And many approved developments have included new cultural spaces. So I guess moving forward, where do you see the balance sitting between encouraging new cultural opportunities in developments and obviously the City also looking after some fantastic world-famous, already established cultural institutions?

Simon Gartshore: Yeah. Well, and that is a question that comes up a lot. Um, we, we kind of launched the cultural provision before we had fully figured out the back end. Mm. Which was like, what should, what sites should have cultural provision on site? What sites should maybe just pay cash offsetting instead? And we're, we're now looking to provide much more clarity around that.

Simon Gartshore: We need to talk to other parts of the corporation like, who... the culture [00:22:00] team, who have a kind of a baseline of what's there in the Square Mile. Because y- y- you don't necessarily need a theater in every office. Mm. And when you have these big flagship institutions, like the Barbican, or the Guildhall School of Music & Drama, or the London Museum, and others, like, it may well be better off you start to fund or continue to fund, uh, to, to amplify your big stuff.

Simon Gartshore: Because actually, economies of scale, you get bang for your buck. So I think we need to be open-minded and pragmatic about what works and what, what doesn't work on a site-by-site basis. But, you know, the thing about culture in, in the Square Mile, like, we built the Barbican 40 or so years ago knowing that it would attract talent.

Simon Gartshore: And culture, whether it's here or in Norfolk, where I chair a theater- Mm ... it kind of provides, it, it provides a kind of foundation for these places that- Connect people to the growth narrative. So you can have economic growth, but culture makes it place. Um, gives it identity, gives people, like, a sense of where they are.

Simon Gartshore: So that's why it's so important to the Square Mile b- and why Destination City is talking so [00:23:00] much about it. Mm. Because it, it like, it, it, it connects people to that story, which I think is important. We can talk about growth and we can build buildings, but actually you need something to ground people. It's very exciting.

Simon Gartshore: So, um, and lastly, a couple of quick questions. Um, appreciate you may have a further year. You could, uh, you know, potentially, so, you know, you could be another two years almost in the, in the chair. Um, so when your time does finish as chair, what, what, what would you like to do next? Gosh, that's a good question.

Simon Gartshore: I mean, the city is all about custodianship. Mm. It's something I've learned in 13 years. Uh, I used to chair our investment committee- Mm ... which is very, like, patient capital investment. It owns 20 s- something percent of the freeholds of the Square Mile, you know, these b- big assets like Smithfield Market, the bridges.

Simon Gartshore: So there's this kinda sense of custodianship. So at the end of my time as planning chair, it would be nice to have left it in better shape than I started, and I'd hope that the last year- Mm ... we've had a great year. This year we'll have a year of construction. [00:24:00] We- we're on our way to do that. I don't know what I wanna do next really.

Simon Gartshore: I haven't thought that far ahead. I know it's a bit, bit of a cop-out. And some l- last question, final one. Um, uh, what's your favorite development in the city and why? Well, it's like asking a planning chairman to do that is like asking a parent to pick their favorite child. That, that said, um, I really like 85 Gracechurch Street.

Simon Gartshore: Uh, it's a MIPIM New Development of the Year award-winning building. It's on site. Went on site really quite quickly after approval of planning. It's a beautiful building. It's a building which surfaces, you know, archeology, which creates new public routes. These are all the things that we're trying to, uh, encourage through our local plan.

Simon Gartshore: Um, it delivers crucial office space, big uplift in office space, which is also something we're, we're, we're delivering. So I think it kinda typifies, like, it touches on all the bits that we're trying to [00:25:00] do as a planning authority- Mm ... in one building, and it won an award, and it looks really nice. And we look forward to you sort of coming out on site as well, I think, for- Yeah

Simon Gartshore: for sites. When's it gonna open? Uh, let me... I think it's about three years. Okay. But don't quote me on that, on- I won't be planning chairman when it completes ... on that one. But nonetheless, obviously we recognize the importance of those opportunities, of you getting out on sites, you know, and evidencing those sites where progression is happening and sites are being built out in the city.

Simon Gartshore: So I know, I think you'd said before, that'd be something you're very interested in as well, isn't it? No, 100%. Going to some of these sites. I wanna, I, I wanna get out and about. I'd, I'd love to take the committee to more sites. Mm. Like I say, it's a year of construction. I saw the... Is it Deloitte do a crane survey?

Simon Gartshore: The cr- I mean, the crane survey's like- Not great for London, but it's all in the city. You know, all the uplift, all the numbers in my stats pack, you know, all the uplift is happening in the city. Like, it's a buzzing place. Now, that does provide challenges around noise and disruption and servicing of the sites and, and dust and stuff.

Simon Gartshore: That is just unfortunately a fact of life in a busy, growing, dense, urban city, and I think we do our best to manage it well. But of [00:26:00] all the problems to have, that's a problem I'd rather have. Indeed. It's a nice problem to have, so. It's a nice problem to have. Thank you ever so much, Tom, for your, for your time today.

Simon Gartshore: And, um, we'll, uh, upload, uh, this shortly. And, um, we look forward to listeners, um, listening in and, uh, posing any further questions, um, to ourselves, um, that may arise subsequently. So thank you ever so much, Tom- You're very welcome ... and giving that, uh, insight and future direction of the city. Thank you.

Simon Gartshore: Brilliant. Thank you. All right. So I just- There we go. Cool. There you go. Was that all right? Yeah. Absolutely perfect. Thank you. Good work. Yep. Still recording? I am