I still attribute this today to the

only, the only reason I passed 473

is because didn't realize you could

say I didn't wanna fucking be here.

And still to this day now I can

picture it perfectly in my mind.

Like he had half a leg, but a full

allocation of leg skin hanging.

Serving with them blokes was just the

fucking biggest privilege of my life ever.

And anyone who wears, you know, the

triangle on their arm has my respect.

The big thing about Veterans Army is I, I,

I'm all about veterans helping veterans.

You know, if you are a veteran

landscaper and I need landscaping,

I'm gonna come to you and I'm gonna

recommend everyone else comes to you

because we should look after our own

Guys, welcome back to another

episode of the Combat Fuel podcast.

Today, we're joined by a guy we've

known for, for quite a while.

Um, former gym owner

slash current gym owner.

He is a veteran, serving with 473, and

he's also the founder of VA, and that's

something we'll get into in a bit.

Ryan, welcome.

Thank you for your service.

Please give us a little

bit of an intro about you.

Cheers.

Thanks for having me.

Um, so come from Bolton up in the north,

and the northwest has always been a kind

of big recruiter for the military anyway.

Um, I come from a very poor area,

but I ended up at a very affluent

school, which didn't really align

with who I was at the time anyway.

Um, I was always gonna be a soldier.

I don't know what it was, um,

it's just always kind of been

a thing that I was gonna do.

Um, my dad hadn't served, but

my granddad had, and my other

granddad had served as well.

And it was only many, many years later

I reali- I found out through like family

history and stuff and family trees that

my dad is the only person in the last like

140 years who hasn't served in the army.

Like, we can go right back to the Crimean,

which is a nice bit of legacy, I suppose.

But I grew up in a rough area, you know.

Born in the '80s, grew up in the

'90s, so there were no mobile phones.

Like, dial-up just started towards

the end, and it was like, you're

going out, come in when the big lights

come on and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And you can play out as long

as I can see you down the arse

end of the street or whatever.

Um, but we didn't have a lot of money.

My mum and dad split when I was

very young, and my mum remarried.

Um, and we moved to a, a very rough area,

and I kind of fell in with a bad crowd.

But on reflection now-

We were just lads who didn't

really know what to do.

We didn't really have any much to

whatsoever, like social inclusion

and community groups and things.

They weren't a bad thing, like

they weren't a big thing back then.

We did- I went to the Cubs

and that was about it.

Do you know, that was the

only thing that we had.

Um, but we didn't have a lot of money,

and I'd gone to this really posh school

and I kind of realized very quickly that I

didn't fit in, like because we were poor.

Um, so I had started my

first job when I was like 12.

Um, I started working in a butcher's

and then when I was 14 I got a

second job and I started working in

a restaurant four nights a week so I

could have money because at this point,

like couldn't afford school dinners.

Like I was taking a butty in a

polythene bag and if you've got

cannon Slade in Bolton, mate, you

can't be doing that kind of stuff.

And people are rolling around in

Rockports and I couldn't afford

Rockports, never mind anything else.

Um, so you know, I had a very kind

of early upbringing on self-respect

and also being self-reliant.

Um, my grandad, like I said, was

military and he kind of installed into

me discipline 'cause I'm the eldest son

like, so I've got two younger brothers.

It was always, you know, if someone hits

your brother, if your brother comes in

with a busted nose, you both come in with

a busted nose or I'll bust your nose.

Like that's how it was.

And we had a kind of very

kind of rigid upbringing.

My mum's, um, my youngest brother's

dad, he'd been in the military only a

couple years, bought himself out because

that was a thing back in the day.

Um, but he kind of… We started as kids.

I used to iron my own school

uniform when I was like 10.

I was ironing my uniform,

polishing my shoes.

My brothers would bring all the shoes down

on a Sunday and I'd have to sit there,

you know, first parade a load of shoes

so then my stepdad could come and have

a look and go, "Yeah, they're all right.

They're all right.

They're not." And it would be a sense of,

you know, "You've got school tomorrow.

Have you washed your uniform?" "Uh, well,

it's in a basket." "So that's no then.

Go and wash it." And you know, very… I

had young parents anywhere and I think now

it's all done very differently, isn't it?

But I think at the time I had a very,

very strict, very harsh upbringing.

I, I very much self-reliant, looked

after myself and I got into a lot

of trouble and a, and a lot of that

trouble I kind of, kind of managed

to keep away from the front door.

My grandad knew a lot of what went

on, but I managed to keep a lot of

it away from the front door and um,

I just didn't settle in in my school.

I was academically, I'm quite intellectual

when I wanna be, but I just wasn't engaged

and it was like, "What are you gonna do?"

"I'm gonna join the army." "What are you

gonna do?" "I'm gonna join the army."

And then like I joined the army in '04

and we all know what happened in 2001.

So it was like, "Well, I'm just gonna

join the army and go Afghanistan.

Like that's all I'm gonna do."

How, how did you become though?

So you had a pretty rough and

raw upbringing, but being in an

affluent school, how did, how

did that school bit come about?

So randomly Um, I was born on an estate,

this council estate in Bolton, and

behind our council estate was, like,

this really nice rural outlet setting.

And this school that I ended

up going to, they used to run,

believe it or not, cross-country.

They used to let the kids run out

a five-mile route round the local

area, and they used to run down the

back of our ginnel all the time.

And we used to… I used to… I grew up

on the football fields for that school

for like the first four or five years of

my life, and I was always just gonna go.

It's one of them things, I was just

always gonna go to Canon Slade.

I was always gonna go to Canon Slade,

and then when we moved to Great Lever,

it were really rough, and all the

secondary schools around there were rough.

Um, I'm not getting into the demographics

of race and all that kind of stuff, but

it was, you know, it was early '90s- Mm

so things weren't great.

And one thing my mum did do

for me was like, "Right, you

will go to fucking school.

Uh, you'll go to church." Like, "We will

go to church every Sunday 'cause you

are not going to a school round here."

Because it was very obvious that if I'd

have gone to one of the local secondary

schools, I would've quickly, you know…

I'd have been in a lot of trouble,

and I probably would be in prison.

But like a lot of my younger

mates when I was kids are in

prison now, or have done time.

Um, they just, they

weren't the best schools.

You know, the northwest,

funding's not there anyway.

The schools aren't great, but they have

got a top echelon of really good schools.

So, it was a whole point of view.

You had to get points.

I don't know if you still, if it

still works that way now, but we

had to get point system, so you

have to be like after-school clubs.

So that's why I went into,

went to the Cubs and then,

um, I used to play football.

Terrible at football 'cause I

was a fat kid, but you got a tick

in the box for playing football.

And then it was like after-school projects

or out-of-school projects, and my mum

worked for the NHS and on, during the

six-week holidays, I'd get dragged in

some days to help them do, like, mail runs

and parcel runs, and they'd distribute

out to all the, um, she worked for the

CHC, so they'd distribute out all, like,

the, the paraphernalia to the people.

And I'd be the bod who's, like, putting

everything in envelopes and sealing them

and taking them down to the postal room

in the office and getting it all franked.

So then, like, the person who run

all that wrote me a letter of, like,

recommendation saying, you know, "He

does all this during his sum-summer

holidays," and all that kind of stuff.

And then my best mate at the time had

moved out of my area because it weren't

great, and he was going that school.

So I… We just doubled down.

I'm going to Canon Slade.

This is what I'm gonna do.

And I got in by the skin of my teeth.

Like, I got a free bus pass.

I lived that far away.

I had to get two buses- Wow

to get there.

Um, but I got in, and I thought, like,

"This is gonna be the making of me."

And I, I… Mate, my peers were like…

One of my mates, he lived in the guy

who's, who invented the teabags' house.

Wow.

And, like, another one, a, a dad was,

like, one of the founding members of AO.

And I'm like nobody from Great

Lever, and my mum's a receptionist

going through Open University.

Yeah.

I've got a stepdad, he's alky.

Like, I just didn't belong.

Do you know what I mean?

It, it just weren't right.

And my… Wrongly, my kind of, whenever

anything went wrong at secondary school,

I just leathered people 'cause I were fat

or always handy 'cause you're carrying

more weight than everybody else anyway.

Yeah.

And aggression from my ch- my primary

school and, and my upbringing was

just like, if someone's- you don't

take any slight, you don't take any

kind of disrespect from anybody,

especially not these posh toffs

that have got a load of money.

Like, they can't laugh at me 'cause

I've got a shit coat or shit shoes or

I'm eating a sandwich out of a bag.

You know what I mean?

And it was just one of those things

I, I really worked hard to get

there, but when I got there it were

just really, it were a shit time.

It were really bad.

And it weren't- the education

were great, I just didn't fit in.

I did not fit in whatsoever.

But I was always gonna go the army, so

I went to do, went to the re-

career recruit selection center.

Um, and I haven't told many people this

actually, most people don't know this, but

the first time I went to the RSC I failed.

I was too fat, couldn't do a mile and a

half in the time, and that was the first

time I ever experienced proper failure.

Now I s- I've said this a few times and

I say it a lot, failure is fucking shit.

It… Like, you don't want to

eat, you don't wanna sleep.

Like, you- no one's your friend.

Like, sitting with your own failure is

a hard thing to do, but if you've never

done it, you don't get the growth from it.

But at a very early age, I was like,

"God, I…" And my mates, like, I joined

the army with two lads from my school.

One of them was me best mate,

still is me best mate, and they'd

already got in and I thought, "Oh,

on top of all this, I've failed.

I've told everyone I'm gonna join the

army and me mates are in and I'm not.

Like, what am I gonna do?" Um, I

was like, "I'm gonna get fit then."

So I started going getting fit and

all this kind of stuff, and I got a

resit for RSC and I, and I got into

the military and that was the kind

of the start of my military career.

But I always view my less- my life in

life lessons, and my first lesson there

was, like, dealing with failure and, um,

how fucking horrible failure feels, and I

just didn't wanna experience that again.

And I've gone… Looking back now,

I've gone through my life in, in,

there's, there's been pinnacle points

where I've been like, "I never wanna

experience that feeling again."

So I just doubled down and then I was,

you know… I grew up on, well, similar

to you, like, I grew up on the really

cool recruiting videos where, you know,

come up to a v- Yeah … illegal VCPs.

He's like, "Kill the lights.

In the woods, left left, right,

right." And you're like- Yeah … "Oh,

this is fucking cool." And

like Sharp and stuff like that.

I'm like, "Sharp gets

all the chicks." Yeah.

"And he's from a rough area."

Yeah . "I wanna be the next Sharp."

That was me, that was me plan.

Love it.

Yeah.

And how old were you when you first

applied for the army and you, you had a

s- initial failure and this rejection?

16. 16. So I was one of the youngest

in my intake, so I was there-

You needed your mom's permission

to, to go and join then at- Yeah

least.

Which I didn't get.

So- I actually forged my

dad's s- my dad's signature.

Love it.

Love that.

But, um, did you have any

role models growing up?

It sounds like Mom and Dad arguably both

were sort of there instilling that in you.

You know, you've gone away,

you've done your own washing,

you got a school uniform- Yeah

"No, go wash it then." Yeah, yeah.

You know, "Go earn earn some money.

Go and do some extra stuff." Yeah.

Or was there anyone else in there that

was quite influential towards yourself?

So my, my mom's dad, my Grandpa Jim,

um, he joined the Merchant Navy at

like 12 and he traveled around the

world like three or four times, and

mate, we grew up on his stories.

Like, we, I grew up on his stories.

Like, my sense of

adventure comes from him.

Like, he'd done time in a Mexican, um,

prison, chained to someone else breaking

rocks because him and two of his mates

knocked out a mounted police officer

on the piss when they were in shore.

And then, like, he only got out of

that 'cause he got tuberculosis and

they put him on like a plague ship

and sent him with a load of nuns

back to the UK and stuff like that.

Like, loads of little mad stories-

Yeah … that he's got, do you know?

And, and all verifiable.

None of… You know, you

hear some stories, you think,

"Yeah, whatever, Grant." Yeah.

"That's crap." No, 'cause this guy's

got people who can back him up.

Like he, you know, pulled up in, pulled

up in Liverpool docks one time and he'd,

he'd been in, he'd been in nick, hadn't

been sending money home, and his mom was

stood on dock, and he must've been about

16 at this point, and all the lads are

like, "Jimmy, Jimmy-" And she stormed up

gangplank and started leathering him up.

"Boy, how dare you not send me money."

And he's going, "Calm down, Maggie."

And she's like, "Maggie, don't you call

me Maggie." And she's throttling him

in front of all of his mates and stuff.

But I grew up on all these stories,

and my granddad was always like,

"The worst mistake I ever made

was leaving the Merchant Navy."

Like, you know, "If you go in the army,

never volunteer for anything." And he

was really behind, you know, the military

as being an, a good avenue for me.

And like I said, my mum's, my mum's

second husband, he, he wrecks military,

so the rigidity of stuff that it came

from him helped me in a way, but it

weren't great for being around because

like I said, he were a drinker.

Um, and when he weren't

happy, he weren't happy.

It weren't the best environment to grow

up in, but fuck me, did it help me in

basic training because when lads are

like, "Oh, I've got to have my uniform

on." It's just another Sunday for me.

Like- Yeah … this is, this is what I do.

Yeah.

Like, this is what my life's been like.

So I think still to this day now, like,

I always do stuff on the basis that

I hope my granddad would be proud of

me for who I am and what I've done.

Um, and he, he would definitely be the

most impactful role model in my life

just because of my sense of adventure

and for boarding come from him.

And without those, I wouldn't have done

half the stuff that I've done since.

Yeah.

Nice, man.

That's wicked.

Yeah.

So we were, we were 16.

Granddad's a big role model.

Yeah.

Forged our dad's signature to,

um, I think our, like- Yeah.

… we got the same dad.

We don't.

He's not my brother.

Forged your dad's signature.

Um, gone in.

So what year was this then?

So this was 2004.

So was 9/11 had obviously not recently

happened three years pre- previous.

Yeah.

Was that a big driving factor?

You said you always

wanted to join the army.

Was there a sense of like

patriotism in you, like, "I wanna

go and fight for what's right"?

The- Yeah.

I think I remember vividly, mate,

because we used to get on the bus

and you used to get them stupid Metro

free newspapers, and there'd always

be stuff like about Iraq as well.

But Afghanistan, 9/11.

Yeah.

I remember coming home from school

and the 9/11 and what had gone on, and

there was just a sense like this was

wrong, but I thought, "I'm gonna be

a soldier and this is my time, and,

and this is very much gonna be my war.

Afghanistan's gonna be my war." Yeah.

And I think unfortunately, every

soldier joins the military with

a view to, "This will be my war."

Yeah.

And I always find it's the ones

that didn't get the war that

struggle the most coming out.

Yeah.

Especially with things like aggression,

'cause I think if you've been kinetic

enough, you don't really want that

aggression when you come out anyway.

No.

It's, it's gone, innit.

You don't need it.

It- you've fucking expelled that demon.

Um, so, uh, yeah, it were Afghanistan.

Like, I was gonna join.

I was gonna go to Afghanistan.

That's what I wanted to do.

I went to careers office and

I forged my dad's signature.

Um, me mum weren't happy, and

then she threatened to like

throw a spanner in the works.

When- and her key demographic was, "I

will not do anything as long as you

don't join the infantry," 'cause in

her opinion it were cannon fodder.

And I was like, "Well, I've got a lot of

mates in the infantry," like, "But okay.

And they don't use cannons anymore." Yeah.

But there we go, you know.

Yeah.

So done me BARB test and all

that kind of stuff, and those

rotating F's were a real… You

know, they were a real bastard.

Um- Did you read the crowns?

Fucking… But anyway, um,

and he was like, "Well, what

do you wanna recruit as?"

And I was like, "Well, I can't

do the infantry." He's like,

"Do you wanna do combat medic?

Do you wanna be…" And I was like,

"I'm not sure." And he's like Come

watch this video in back room.

So I put this video on, and it was

like a really good recruiting video.

Like I said, when

recruiting videos were good.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden it just

flashed onto the four blokes in

a full subservice OP in Bosnia.

I was like, "What's that?" And guy's

like, "Oh, you, you don't wanna know about

that." I was like, "I want to know about

that." Like, as soon as you said you don't

know about, I want to know about that.

Yeah.

And he's like, "Oh, they're, uh, they're

Four Seven Three." I said, "Okay.

So what they doing?" He said,

"They're underground there."

I said, "Doing what?" He's like,

"Watching targets and stuff, and then

they'll wait and either snipers will

engage or they'll drop artillery on it

or they'll develop a pattern of life and

then feed that information back and then

someone will prosecute that target."

And I'm thinking, prosecuting target.

He's-- All these buzzwords that- Yeah

you're saying.

Prosecuting targets.

Yeah.

Ryan, yeah, it's prosecuting targets.

Yeah.

I wanna join Four Seven Three.

And he's like, "You

can't." I was like, "Why?

It's on the video." And he was like, "Uh,

you've gotta have done two years adult

service at this point." I was like, "Shit.

Uh, well, what am I supposed to do then?"

He said, "Well, they're artillery,

so join another artillery unit

'cause it's easier to change." Now

Four Seven Three is tri-service, so

you get-got Army, Navy, Air Force.

The sticking point is a lot of people

don't wanna recap badge, even though

we've got our own beret and a blacked

out cap badge and a cool stable

belt and that, people still is like,

"Artillery cap badge, we don't like it."

So I was like, "Right, okay." So

I listened to him 'cause he was

sergeant major at the time, and he

was like, "Join the artillery." So

I enlisted as Two Nine Commando.

He's like, "If you can do Commando

course, do a couple years and then cross

deck over to Four Seven Three." Now I

always say I'm not lucky, but like I

really fell on my feet in this scenario.

So I went off to Iragu, cap

badge Two Nine Commando.

My platoon sergeant was Two Nine.

And there was another, uh…

One of the screws was Seven.

But there was a platoon sergeant in

another company who was Four Seven Three.

And, um, I told my platoon sergeant

that, like what I was gonna do, and he

was like, "I'm not having you say that

my unit is a secondary option to you.

Go and speak to him over there and find

out that you are not made for that unit,

and then you can fully commit to coming

to Two Nine." So I was like, "Okay."

So I've got a frog march into another

company line, so you know what I mean?

16. Different color

track suits, sore thumb.

Knocking on door, slam my tabs in.

Um, "Don't you be to Sergeant Thompson

about Four Seven Three?" And he was

chatting to me and he's like, um, "Well,

you…" I was like, "I know I can't go

for two years." And it just randomly in

conversation went, "Oh, it's changed." I

was like, "Wh- wh- what?" Manning issues.

So there were… No one were passing

the course, so they were basically,

they opened it up and they'd said

like anyone can try because what the

unit kind of envisaged, and it worked

for a while, is that lads would come,

fail- Stay at the unit a little bit,

continuation training, go back on

the course, then they will pass."

So they were like, they

were accepting anybody.

So I was like, "Oh, great." So

instead of me going back to my

platoon lines going, "Oh, I'm all

in 29." "Uh, yeah, I need change.

5 RA.

Uh, I'm gonna go straight to 473,"

which created a whole fucking

world of hurt for me in training.

But I'd recruited, and that was that.

Like, "You're on for 473." And

then it started then, like, and

I've had it all my career, and

you're never gonna pass too young.

"Okay.

I, I agree.

I'm a kid.

Like, if you're telling me, that's

how it is." So went through phase

one, phase two down here in Salisbury.

Yeah.

Uh, really quick time down

here actually, to be fair.

I think only, only here nine weeks.

Did me driving, did me signals level

one, then I was up to the regiment.

Got to the regiment just before Christmas.

Uh, sergeant major put me straight on

my signals level two course, and he was

like, "Well, you've got to become top

student 'cause you did your signals level

one last week, and everyone from this

unit becomes top student and everything."

And I was like, "Oh, shit.

I'm in this unit.

Like, okay.

Yes, sir." Yeah.

Went and did the signals level two

course, and everyone's like, "Oh, what,

what you here for?" 'Cause it, the

week, the course had already started

a week, but they were like, "Oh, well,

it's just overview of signals level

one, and you've just spent four weeks

doing that, so you'll be all right."

So joined the course, and then everyone's

like, "Oh, you, what you here for?

Have you just joined?" 'Cause our

unit, I'd like support a, a sigs det

and then, like, a bit of a BQMS det.

So they're like, "Oh, are you joining

the sigs troop?" And I was like, "No,

no, I'm going to selection." And was

like, "How old are you?" And like, but

I know a lot of you know, but I look

like an absolute child without a beard.

Like, I look like an absolute

child- … without a beard.

Like, "How old are you?" Like the

whole, "Do you know, does your mum

know you're here?" kind of thing.

And I was like, "I'm 17." And they're

like, "You've got no chance." And

then people are going, "Well, I'm 26.

I tried it, and I failed." And I'm like,

"Oh, God." And then all I'm hearing then

for like the next month is these stories

of people much better than me, a much

better soldier than me, like much more

handy capable than I am that have failed

and, you know, that I'm not gonna do it.

So I went on Christmas leave with

the mentality of, "Right, well, I'm

not passing this course, but I'll

just go." It's phys, so As soon as we

got back, like I'll do the fitness.

I'll probably fail test week 'cause

that's what everyone's telling

me, but I'll get four weeks on the

hills up in, you know, Gerlach Head.

Yeah.

So we're up in Gerlach Head well,

and, um, up near Faslane and

all that kind of stuff in Stran.

And we did our selection, we

did our hills phase up there.

So I thought I'll just, I'll just

go and I'll just get fit, and

I'll try and learn as much as I

can, individual skills and drills.

Because for me, I was in that training

mentality and I still attribute this today

to the only, the only reason I passed

473, is because I didn't realize you could

say, "I didn't wanna fucking be here."

'Cause it was heinous.

It were hard.

The hardest thing I've ever done in my

life, and I didn't realize I could just

go, "Oh, VW." But other people were

VW-ing all the time, but I was just

like, "Oh, I didn't know the procedure.

I'm 17.

I don't wanna rock the boat.

No one likes me anyway-

Yeah … 'cause I'm this, a kid."

One of the staff's like, "Oh, we get

extra milk because of you, you know."

I'm like, "Really?" He's like, "Yeah, all

these whole regulations," like because

I'm under 18, they used to get extra milk.

So old DS are like smashing bru, "Yeah,

here's your milk, lad." So I'm like,

"Oh, God." Um, so we just, like, I

went into selection with the intent

of do as much as I can, but I knew I

would fail, and people started going

and I was getting up every morning.

I was packing my bag every day like,

"Oh, today will be the day that I

go." Um, and then we got to test week,

and test week is like mentally it's

challenging because a lot of the march

is a known distance, unknown time.

And I always struggle most with those

because you're like, well, you don't

know how to pace, but they want you to

go all out from day, like from day dot.

Yeah.

But you can't 'cause you just

spent three weeks on the hills.

So we started test week and more people

started going, and then people coming

off going, "I know I've not passed." And

then I'm looking at people that I think

are fitter than me and I'm thinking,

"If he's saying he's not passed and he

finished before me, fuck, I'm done."

But every day I come back, whiteboard,

names that, names that are carrying

on tomorrow, names that aren't.

So I was like, "Okay." And I just thought

to myself, "You know what?" I'm not

gonna pass this course, but I'm also

not gonna just volunteer to get off it.

They can tell me when they want

me to go, and I'll, I'll go with

pleasure, and I'll come back, and

I'll, I'll take it on as an experience.

And I just… It just never happened.

Like, every day I assumed would be my last

day on the course, and then, like, 20-odd

weeks later, there was 68, 68 or 69 of us

started, six passed, and I was just there.

And people got stand-up fails.

People finished the entire

course and got a stand-up fail.

Like, "We don't think you're a right fit.

You can either re- come back in a year

and do the course again or whatever."

And I was like, "Jesus." And, like, the

PSI was Hereford and stuff like that,

and, like, he were a maniac in himself.

And I was just like, "I'll just

keep turning up. I'll keep packing

my bag every day. I'll keep my

head down, try and make friends."

But… And you do make friends

on courses like that, obviously

you do, and some of the lads that

passed my course, I mean, you know,

are lifelong friends, aren't they?

But during the course, it's a team

sport, but everyone's very much like…

People didn't really… I had about five

or six really close friends, and the

rest of the people kind of judged me as

one of the people that was just gonna

fall by the wayside when it got hard.

Um- Like, again, just be- 'cause

you're young, it's not the done thing.

You're a little bit of

a… It's different.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, uh, that's the way

the military used to be, didn't it?

Yeah.

If you're different, you don't fit in-

Yeah … then you've got no place here.

But you proved them wrong.

Yeah, and I just think it literally,

I'd been in that mentality for, like…

At this point now I'd been

training for two years.

Like, Harrogate was a year,

Larkhill was, like, three months.

I'd gone straight onto,

um, selection 473 then.

So I spent, like, nearly two years

of just do as you're told, doing

what you're told to the best of

your ability, and then you… It's

either good enough or it's not.

So I was still in that training

mentality, and that's what I

attribute to the reason that I passed

the course at such a young age.

Uh, I got badged two days before my

18th birthday, um, which, you know,

who wouldn't be chuffed about that?

But back then, because I'd done

two years for the Queen, they were

like, "Right, so here's your beret,

here's your belt," you know, "Here's

your, here's your, uh, your badge.

Do you want to discharge as of right?

Because, like, you've got two days

before you're 18 to still discharge."

And I was like, "Do I buggery?

Discharge as of right?

No." The lad's like, "Yeah,

you ain't staying in the army,"

and all this kind of stuff.

Um, yeah, my, my career

started from there really.

It was A massive rite of passage.

Um, and it was a promotional course

for a lot of people, but it didn't,

it wasn't a promotional course for me

because I was too young, so therefore

they didn't seem that it weren't

right that I got straightaway promoted

because I'd only actually been in the

regiment at this point, like six months.

Yeah.

So we, and then we were just straight

into operational training then,

and, you know, in-house training.

I spent the next nine to 12 months

on continuation training courses,

like, and it's a big thing.

We finished the selection, went to

the jungle for a confirmatory X, where

guys from the unit actually played Op

IV and DS, and they wanted to catch

you out because if you could g- if

you did a massive Freddy during your

probationary period, you got de-badged.

So the boys… So it went from the DS

kind of training you to the boys from

the unit training you- Yeah … the way

that they want it to be, and you started

getting embedded in their patrols as

like lead scout or, you know, rad op

because you get to carry the most kit

and you're the new guy or whatever.

And that was like an opportunity

then for the boys to vet you.

And then when you started getting put

on continuation training courses, you

went with guys who you would work with

in your OP or your FST or whatever,

and that's where I really I say I grew

up in the army, and I think I did.

Like I were a, I were a kid, obviously

16, but I had a kid's mentality,

and that n- initial failure about,

about getting into the military and

then that initial accomplishment,

mate, I thought I was bulletproof.

Like I felt invincible.

I thought like I remember day one,

"What's going on?" I'm infantry recon

platoon sergeant, and I'm like, "Oh God.

Uh, well, I'm brand new." Yeah.

"I've been here six months." Like, and

I'm like, "I've got no chance against

these guys." And then as they started

going, I, I never for one minute got

that kind of, "I'm better than anyone,"

'cause I just don't believe that.

I just think my mentality at that time

was so much r- forced into the training

environment that that's where I was at,

and I just took the course as it was.

Which everyone, you know, from my

unit says the same, we don't… They

don't want the biggest soldiers, they

don't want the fastest soldiers, but

they want soldiers that can learn and

soldiers that can think for themselves

and, and that is exactly what I was.

And I, and you know, and

it was, it were awesome.

Do you think being young

helped you out then?

You know, you didn't have l- this

like you had a lot of life experience,

but you didn't have a lot of military

experience- Yeah … you know.

So there's lads that are there

that are like, "Oh, I've seen

this, I've seen them failing."

Whereas you're like, "Well, I mean, I

might as well just give it a crack."

Like you didn't know- Yeah … like

the level of like what a hard,

arduous course it was gonna be.

Did that benefit you-

Massively … being young?

Massively.

And I also, I am a

massive fan of Harrogate.

Um, I know what's going on at the minute

in the, in the press and stuff, whatever.

I'm a massive fan of it, and I genuinely

believe that that 11 months spent on low

level individual skills and drills, you

know, going over tactics, going over pack

your webbing, wear your webbing, make

sure that your webbings fits nice and, you

know, more time on section attacks, purify

maneuver, platoon attacks, understanding

the logistical side of things and the

supply side of things, and you go into

a lot of in-depth stuff in Harrogate.

And I know people don't

rate it, but you really do.

So I felt like I was just

continuing a knowledge base

that I was only just developing.

But because I spent so long going into

that, when we were doing like basic

patrols, some of the guys were a bit

like, you know… I hadn't had the

opportunity to develop my own bad habits.

I'd only developed, developed

military m- like doctrine.

So yeah, I knew paces due and porpoise and

all that kind of stuff- Yeah … verbatim.

'Cause then I had time to go on, "Oh,

well, you can knock off early on a

Wednesday if you say you're doing this

and you're not." And you know, you

can… No one tips into the office

till 10:00 on a Monday, so if you, if

you're necky, you can get a late start.

Like I hadn't had that kind

of an opportunity or time

to develop any of those.

So when I did go, yeah, it was shit

and it were hard, but I hadn't had the

easy living of being in a regiment.

I hadn't had the regiment

drinking days on Thursday.

Yeah.

You know, I hadn't had the long

weekends in camp where you just go

and get rat-arsed and do whatever

you want, the shenanigans, and I

hadn't fallen into any of, uh- Camp

life, you know, I ain't fallen into

any of that, so I didn't miss it.

And I think a lot, a lot of people

struggle with, like, missing

it, and then obviously families.

But I was younger, I didn't have a family.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

During this time, you know, you know,

when we were growing up, mobile phones

still aren't really a thing, though.

Managed to keep contact with

mom, dad, brothers at all?

So, um, I spoke to my grandad quite a bit.

Um, me and my parents, our relationship

w- well, I'm thir- 38 soon, and we're

just trying to rebuild a relationship now.

Um, so I didn't really

keep in touch with them.

But I spoke to my mum semi-regularly

because at Harrogate, if you

wanted to get let out at the

weekend, you had to have a letter.

So no text messages or emails.

You had to have a letter that your

parents could post or they could fax.

And my mum had a fax

machine in her office.

So I would, uh, I'd give her a phone

call once a week and like, "Can you fax

a letter to say that I can go out on

Saturday afternoon?" So we used to work

till Saturday lunchtime, and then you

could go home if you wanted to, or you

could go into, like, Leeds or Harrogate

or whatever, but you had to have a letter.

If you didn't have a letter from your

parent, you weren't allowed out of camp.

Not even to go to, like,

the laundry or the shop.

You were gated.

So I spoke to her a lot for that,

but I didn't speak to my dad at

all, um, during this period of time.

But I did speak to my grandad

a lot because he'd been in the

Merchant Navy and stuff, and, like,

he'd, uh, he'd give me this steam

iron, and it were like a monster.

It put the most sharp creases in your

trousers and your shirts you've ever seen.

Everyone wanted to borrow it, but

every time we plugged it in, it

used to cut the power in the block.

But it was, like, legendary.

It must have weighed 15 kilos, this

thing, and he'd had it years, mate.

And you could see where he's

changed the plug on the end of

it, and the cable's all battered.

But it were gleaming.

It was like an old-fashioned

weighted steam iron.

Wow.

It w- it were fantastic.

And everyone's like, "Can I use

your iron?" And it were fine.

Once you plugged it in, if it

didn't trip the block, it was good.

But if you kept unplugging it and plugging

it back in, the block was going down.

And I think that lasted, like,

three-quarters of my time at Harrogate,

and then one of the DS was like…

They, they clocked on to what were

going on, and they come in and they

cut the plug off my iron and took it.

Um, but yeah, the main person I spoke to

while I was in, like, was, was me grandad.

But I tried to leave Bolton behind

and, you know, just embrace a new life.

I joined the military-

Because I weren't happy with who

I was, and I'd seen all these

stories and I was big into reading.

I'm still big into reading now.

My granddad kind of like

passed that onto me.

And I still remember the first, I

remember the first book that changed

my life when it comes to the military,

and I read a book called Borriest.

And it's, long story short, it's

about three guys from the UK.

They, uh, there's been a theft and all

of them are claiming that they've done

it to protect somebody else and they

go and join the French Foreign Legion.

And you're reading in this book about

these guys, these Brits and like they're

apparently they're thieves and stuff like

that and no one respects them and stuff.

And then they're walking through like

Algiers with their medals on and képi

blanc and stuff and like women are

throwing themselves at them and bl-

blokes are buying them drinks and I

thought, "Ooh, this is what I want."

Like I, and I just, I viewed the

military as an, as an opportunity to

reinvent who I was 'cause I wasn't

happy with who I were at all as a kid.

Uh, I just didn't fit anywhere

and I decided that I'd seen enough

Hollywoodism that the Army would be

the make- Like Sharp's done all right.

Look at him, he was a private- Yeah

soldier and then he's lieutenant

colonel by the time he got out.

He got all the chicks.

So yeah, I just decided that the Army

was gonna be the making of me and I

embraced it to its fullest I think.

I, I wanted to get as

much out of it as I could.

I traveled like, you know,

I'd stay in the block a lot.

I must have gone to three or four

different guys' houses for Christmas.

"Come to mine for Christmas." "You want

to?" "Yeah, all right." Like, you know,

we're just… And because my unit is

the way that it is we're all very same.

A lot of the lads stayed in the block

so we went and did our own stuff like

snowboarding and lads holidays and

stuff, so I really just embraced that

whole create the person you want to be.

Yeah.

And we were just training for tour and I

hadn't been to tour yet so the first like

year, year and a half of being in the

unit I didn't feel like a proper soldier

anyway 'cause I hadn't cut my teeth and

I'm with a lot of guys like my unit had

been committed since, well we'd done a

couple of thingles, the unit at low level.

But then from Herrick four we were

committed all the way through to I think

'16 or '17, and then w- we never deployed

as a unit, we deployed as patrols apart

from Herrick seven as BRF and Herrick six,

uh, a full troop of the blokes deployed.

But other than that we only

ever deployed as patrols.

So I didn't feel like my unit, it's

weird 'cause I was the youngest guy

and like- I grew up with them all.

I didn't wanna let anybody down.

So although I, I did a lot of, you

know, everyone does shenanigans in the

block and I'm not, I'm not confessing to

anything, but I didn't feel like I were

worthy to be around my mate, my peers

properly until I cut my teeth and I'd

stood shoulder to shoulder with them.

And then, then I was like, "Yeah,

I might be here, so I might be the

young lad, but when the shit hits the

fan, you know you can count on me."

And, and that was a big driving force

for me to get on tour, and I just kept

be- It were elusive for like a year.

I just kept missing, like I didn't get

picked for this trip or I was in this

troop and that troop got picked- Yeah

… and it was just like, "I'm never gonna

get on tour. I'm gonna miss Afghanistan."

And then I needed self-validation

to know that I could go and do the

job that I'd been training for,

but I also wanted to know that I

belonged with the boys, I think.

Um, so yeah, we just… It was

all geared around going on tour.

Yeah.

Like that was, that was the,

the epitome of everything.

Yeah.

At th- this time of year,

like Iraq's died off.

Like Afghanistan is everywhere- Yeah

… since all in the news constantly.

The, the war, the war in Afghanistan-

Yeah … the war in Afghanistan.

But it did come around.

You did get your time.

Yeah.

Um, and it was Herrick 11, wasn't it?

Yeah.

But it wasn't a straight up deployment.

It wasn't you were picked to go, so- No

tell us a little bit about- Yeah … how,

how Herrick 11 came about for yourself.

So I'd been all batted

for Herrick 13, I think.

12 or 13.

Uh, 13 it was.

So obviously you know yourself,

you pre-deployment training,

all that kind of stuff.

But- But as a unit,

I'd been doing PDT now.

I'd done like our, I'd done PDT

two or three times because like

at one point the whole unit was

gonna deploy, then it was a troop.

You weren't picked.

So I'd done a lot of the, the

training, but tragically, um, my

mate Simmo got hit with sudden IED,

uh, in Sangin, um, near Inkerman.

Lost his legs and bit of his hand.

Um, he's like, does he use wing-

He's like the wheelchair, England

wheelchair rugby captain and stuff now.

Really fucking legend of a bloke, but

really good friend of mine as well.

So he'd been hit.

I got a phone call, like we'd got told

about it at work, what had gone on,

and then they were like, "Right, you

know, go back to the block, decompress."

And this is the first bloke that

we'd lost since Northern Ireland.

So my unit had lost three

guys in Northern Ireland.

Uh, sorry, two guys in Northern

Ireland, but we hadn't lost

anybody up until this point.

We'd had some guys be injured,

but we hadn't suffered a loss

like this, a hit like this.

Um, well, no, I tell a lie.

On Herrick 7, the unit had lost two guys,

but one of them was the, uh, from the

HAC, Jack Sadler, good friend of mine.

He actually took my place in a vehicle.

I got removed from the RBAT because

he was TA and he'd, he'd mobilized.

He needed to deploy.

So when we went from a full unit

deployment to not, he had to go because

he'd been mobilized from his job.

Um, so he took the top gunner role in my

vehicle and he subsequently got killed.

And we are- on one of the REME

attachments like Daz, he got

killed as well on Herrick 7.

So we'd lost those guys, but this felt

different with Herrick 11 for us as a unit

and everyone was just fucking devastated.

Like similar well-liked guy and

it just, it never happened to us.

And everyone likes to think

you're too good or whatever, and

it's always luck of the draw.

There's nothing to do with that.

But I got a phone call, come up to

the lines and I thought, "What have

I done?" And then the BC's like,

"Right, um, you know, you've been

waiting to go on tour for a while.

You've made it very aware, aware

that you wanted to go, you're

wanting to go on tour, so we're

gonna deploy you to Afghanistan.

You're gonna take over from, um, George

in Wishton." George is gonna move south,

or whichever direction it is, I can't

remember, um, to Sangin, to Inkerman.

I was like, "Okay." And he's like,

"A lot of my mates from Wishtown

anyway that George was working with."

Wishtown at the time was a little

bit quieter than Inkerman and Sangin.

So the BC had tried doing me a lemon.

So he's like, "You've got two weeks.

We're gonna get you on the ranges

next week," and boom, boom, boom.

You know, all, get all your ticks in

your boxes, mats and whips to make sure

that you can go 'cause it's so important.

And, um, off you pop.

And in that two-week period, about three

days before I was supposed to deploy,

got another phone call, come up to

the lines, and I thought this is it.

They're telling me I'm not going on tour.

And they said, "Right, um, you're

still deploying, but you're

actually gonna go to Inkerman now."

And I was like, "Oh, okay, what's going

on with George?" "He's been shot."

And I was like, "What?" So he's like,

the BC's like, "Yeah, so you're a

battlefield casualty replacement for

a battlefield casualty replacement.

Are you all right with that?" And I was

like, "Well, yeah." I didn't know it

was an option not to be, to be fair.

You're a soldier, you do

what your soldier order.

Yeah.

But there was a sense of

foreboding, like, oh, okay.

So I'm going… I, I mean, when

I, when I rocked up at Inkerman,

mate, I had the same bed space as

both of them had been sleeping in.

Like, people didn't wanna- No … people

didn't even wanna occupy the bed space.

It become like this, this jinxed area,

like not to touch it, and, "Have that

bed if you want." Simo had it, and then

George had it, and you're like, "Oh,

great." So I got mobilized and deployed

on Herrick 11, um, as a BCR for BCR.

And that in itself were weird for me

because I never got, I never got that,

the enjoyment of, like, going, do

you know when you get on the bus and

everyone's said bye, and you're like,

"Right, you've said bye to your families,

but no, right, it's fucking on now."

You switch mindset, don't you?

As soon as… And I got it on my second

tour because I got to do the whole

deployment thing, but because I didn't,

I just got, "Right, you're gonna get

a hire car, go down to Brize, jump on

this flight." And I'm just on my own.

Yeah.

Like, with a lot of people

I didn't know at all.

Rocked up to Bastion.

Um, one RHA was supposed

to collect me, they forgot.

And I'm like, "Who, who the fuck? What

am I supposed to do here?" Like, what

are you supposed to do in this situation?

Young bud in the middle of

Bastion like- I'm in Afghanistan.

I've got no clue what's going on.

No one's picking me up.

No one's told me where I'm

getting picked up from.

I'm like, "Hello? Um, yeah, this

is me." So anyway, I got phoned and

I, at this point then I'm feeling

massively overwhelmed, like holy shit.

Like, I've deployed on my own.

People don't even know I'm coming.

People have forgot I even exist.

I do not know what the fuck I'm doing.

And at that minute I was like, it

was like I just didn't know anything.

What am I supposed to do?

"Well, go and find someone who's in

charge. Ryan, come on. Pull your head

out your ass." So I got phoned, and

then I phoned 18- 1 RHA where they were.

And fortunately a couple of my

mates were circling out on, um, R&R.

So I got, like, two or

three days with them.

And I remember Smudge Seen

him, give him a massive cuddle.

He's like, "What the fuck's up with

you?" I was like, "Mate, you're first

friendly forces I've seen in about a week.

Like, you know what, we're

going on, what we're doing,

no one's really talking to me.

Nobody knows me, so like no one's

really taking me on." And he's like,

"Fucking hell, you gonna be all right?"

I was like, "Yeah, I'll be all right."

Just like, it's just really nice to

see someone, do you know what I mean?

One of the lads.

And then within, I done RSOI

in Bastion, Bastion two or

Bastion, Bastion two a week.

Um, and then boomph, LA went on and

that was like, that helicopter trip

was the epitome of my entire tour.

As we were coming in, heli

got hit, flares going.

I'm like, "Holy shit." It's like my first

tour, like my, my first proper operational

helicopter ride, and fuckers are trying

to bring this thing down with an RPG.

Oh my God.

So I'm landing, and then like my guys

are there then, so like Dinger and the

boys that I already knew were incoming,

and they were like, they welcome me in.

I, I got this like, "Oh, I'm all

right. I'm with the lads." Like,

it's all gonna be all right now.

And, um, within two or three days when

w- I was distributed out to the PBs on

the 611, and um, yeah, fucking kinetic

heavy tour literally started day one.

Um, and some of like, that

tour shaped my entire life.

Some of the decisions I made on that

tour have shaped my entire life.

Um, and kind of, I had to decide what

kind of man I was gonna be on that tour.

Uh, and I've carried that with me

then for like the last, what, 20

years or whatever it is nearly now.

Um- Really, really heavy.

Like real steep learning curve.

Um, but what a time to be alive.

Absolutely.

There's, there's not many people that

have been able to experience- Yeah

like, and arguably, factually, the hardest

war fighting since World War II, you know?

It's- Yeah … it's only a

select few guys can, can share

those experiences, can't they?

Yeah.

Is there anything that you want

to discuss about that tour?

Um, put out there some

key moments that happened?

I think, 'cause I've spoke about it,

a defining moment for me, for people

that are interested in it was, um,

and like we'd been in contact on

my first ever patrol, and everyone,

anyone who tells, anyone who go- goes

on goes, "Yeah, I jumped on the GMP."

I started, "You don't." 'Cause

first time you get shot, you

don't even know what's happening.

'Cause everyone's stood up, then all

of a sudden everyone's on a knee,

and you're, "Oh shit," get on a knee.

And by this point, rounds are

cracking all over anywhere.

Yeah.

And there's no one, only point

man or first two guys are

taking, like returning fire.

'Cause after you were down the

street anyway- Yeah … not

even in the line of fire.

And I hear these stories of people

going, "Yeah, I did that." I'm like,

"No, mate, stop." I was digging in

my eyelids to establish contact.

You didn't do… Yeah, I was shitting

my absolute pantaloons, mate.

Like what do you mean?

I'm getting shots.

From where?

What's going on?

Where are we?

Yeah.

Do you know?

So, and like at the time, so I deployed

to a, a PB, and there was a sergeant

major from, uh, One RHA who was in

charge of me, but he was on R&R.

So I attached to a, an MFC from

Daz, from A Company, 4 Rifles,

and Daz was like my tour dad.

And he was like, "Be honest with me.

How are you feeling?" "Am

I being honest with you?

Out of my fucking depth." "No worry, we'll

change that." Uh, and we went on every

single patrol, and within about a week

I'd gone from like being unsure of like

what my entire purpose was in Afghanistan

to I've been in contact nearly every day.

Like I was controlling green eyes

while we were doing patrols, while

I was lining up mortar barrels and

smoke points and all because Daz

just reminded me, "This is your job.

This is how we do it.

This is how we do it on tour.

This is what you should

constantly be doing.

If you ever find yourself not doing

anything, there's a problem." And

he honestly, like he formulated me

to who I was as a soldier, I think.

Um, and then- And I saw Major,

he'd come back off R&R and he

was like, come and sat me down.

And at this point I'd been in the

PBs like three weeks and I think

I'd been in like 15 incidences.

I'd treated a load of casualties.

Our medic had been killed

so I kind of took, took over

doing the med stuff as well.

Um, and then when we were getting a lot

of local nationals and stuff come in, so

when we get like ANA or local nationals

come in, I would get the team medics who

hadn't had hands-on casualties to come

down to the med center where I was and

I would take them through what I'd been

took through on like the advanced force

team medics and what I'd learned in, um,

Middlesbrough A&E and stuff like that.

But at this point I'm like a nobody,

but people go, "Oh, he's from four seven

three," and they just assume you're a

lot older than you are or you've been

on a lot more tours and people are

coming to me asking me advice and I'm

thinking, "Shit." But then I didn't

really wanna like, you know, the privates

and the young lads or the lads from the

companies because they didn't know me.

I didn't want to breed in any kind

of insecurities of being like, "Oh,

this guy doesn't know what he's

doing." So you just roll with it.

"Oh yeah, do this, do that and the

other." And all of a sudden like you

become this integral part of the, of

the team But all the time I'm just

feeling massive there at me depth.

And we'd come back and we,

we'd been on two on, two off.

We'd, we'd lost a lot of guys

and there was just n-no rotation.

I were bollocks, mate.

Like I were bollocks.

Um, and I have an issue

now with feeling tired.

It, it like triggers me because

I know when tiredness comes, like

that later mentality can slip in,

and that's when bad stuff happens.

And we had a couple of instances

that happened when I were

tired, but everyone were tired.

But because I am the person I am,

I like to kind of be able to be the

point of fault for everything, so

then I can just take it on the chin.

Like today, yeah, my fault, mate.

I'll go on.

Um, so we'd gone out on this patrol

and one of the lads, fucking tragic,

like he'd been shot through both

his calves, but he'd stayed on tour

'cause he didn't wanna leave the lads.

Gone on this patrol, Grand Nationwide,

and we were bollocksed, and we'd got into

this PB, and I'd been on two on, two off.

Um, I'd come straight off being on

onto the patrol, just laid down,

literally just got my roll mat out and

I thought, "I'm gonna get a couple hours

sleep," and the whole world erupted.

But we were in a compound and, um, Paul

had stepped on this IED in the compound,

so everyone's screaming for medic.

So I'm like half comatose and I'm opening

my eyes, "Medic." Oh shit, that's me.

Like I'm the medic now.

So I, I grabbed me kit and I'm running.

I'm like, "Where's the Bamlane? Bamlane's

gone." Like the, this… We was in a

compound, and within the compound he

was clearing it, and at the very bottom

corner there was an obvious murder hole

onto a, a choke point that we'd, we were

always getting contacted from anywhere.

So stop helping.

Um, so we wanted to get eyes on that

and I think the, the plan was that we

were gonna co-control the choke point

while they were resupplying through

because what had happened is couldn't

get heli resupplies and they were

just fragging all the mastiffs all

the time, and we couldn't get water.

We'd gone down to like two

liters of drinking water per

man per day on a summer tour.

Like it were horrendous.

And like Sergeant Major was rationing

you two, like, "There's your two liters

of water. If you wanna brush your teeth,

you use that. If you wanna shower, you

use that." Like there is no extra water.

We cannot get extra water.

So it, this were becoming, it

were becoming a real problem.

So it was like supposed

to be a three-day job.

We'd go out, secure the choke point,

so the different call signs on

this crossroads, which we always

got smashed on, and then we were

gonna fortify it, solidify it.

They were gonna go push through,

resupply us, and then go on up

to Blenheim and everywhere else.

Um, so w- I w- I was in the

mentality of we're getting rid down

here, and then boomph, goes off.

Everyone's shouting for a medic.

I'm like, "Holy shit. Where's

Bamlane?" Bamlane's gone.

Like the back end of the compound, the

two sides facing the road w- are gone,

and there's just a mountain of rubble

and smoke and dust, and I'm like, "Holy

shit, what have we been hit with?"

Like it felt like we'd been hit by a JDAM.

Um-

And everyone's going, "Where's

Pollet? Where's Sarge?" Like the

little young lad called Sarge.

And I was like, "Fuck." So I'm running

down this lane and, um, I were a

butcher, so like I said before.

And I remember, um, I heard this

fucking screaming and Pollet

was like lying out this rubble.

His top half was in the rubble,

but his legs were out, but

just, just up onto his knees.

But it's weird, when we used to skin

pigs in butchers, as you start, the skin

collects and it has its own weird smell.

And I'm trying to dig him out

the mu- out… It's then like the

clay's turned to mud now 'cause

there's claret fucking everywhere.

But I've got to claw him out so

I can get tourniquets on him.

And I remember looking at his

quad, and I was like, "Looks like

a side of pig, that." Like, do

you know from when I were a kid?

And I was like-- And still to this day

now I can picture it perfectly in my

mind, like he had half a leg, but a

full allocation of leg skin hanging.

I was like, "Fuck." So I'm pl- applying

tourniquets and stuff, and he's screaming.

And we were like, "Where's Sarge?"

'Cause there were two of them.

Valiant man, point man.

Gone.

Couldn't find him.

What the fuck's going on?

So guys have started following me

down now, lads that normally help

me with the med training and stuff.

'Cause don't forget, like

I've only been on tour at this

point, like maybe four weeks.

So I'm like, "Holy shit." My, uh, oh.

I remember running down the battle

lane, and I'm not a religious guy,

and I was like, "God, help me." I just

knew at that point this was fucking

serious and all eyes were on me.

Um, so applying tourniquets, trying

to get fluids into him and stuff,

dress him, scooping all of his skin

in, insert dressings and stuff.

Lads start helping me like, "Yeah,

so what do you want me to do?" And

I'm like, "Right, do that, that."

And I start directing them then

so I can start doing the mist.

And then someone just says, "Sarge

is out there." And I'm like, "What?"

And he were just lay on this high

feature, motionless, but pristine.

And I'm like, "Fuck."

And then obviously we triggered all

the shit bags then 'cause we did a

b- So then they thought, "Oh, fucking

pull it in time." So splash started

landing in and around him, and I

was like, "Fuck." And there was like

me, two other lads on, on Pollet.

People are screaming off

this other side of the roof.

Someone get Sarge, someone get Sarge.

I was like, "Fuck. Right, you two

do that, I'm gonna go and get him."

Slung me rifle and I'm running.

And I remember running to him and going,

"I'm gonna fucking die now," 'cause I

was adamant that I was gonna get killed.

I'm like, "I'm gonna fucking die

now." And I got him, and I turned

him over, and he just went, "Ooh."

I was like, "Thank

fuck." And he were fine.

Literally, mate, bit of pebble dash.

Like he were a Brummie.

I, I don't know what's in the water

down there, but he were completely fine.

I rolled him over expecting to

just see like nothing, just like

this void in uniform, and he just

went, "What are you doing?" I was

like, "Get here, you bastard."

Threw him over my shoulder

and I'm running back in.

And then everyone's flapping then.

Um, and they're a real breakdown.

Like we're us- we're only

a 12-man multiple anyway.

We've lost two guys at this point.

Guys are doing stuff.

We've lost our e- our egress route.

So butcher sergeant major was

like, "Yeah, so las them through

that wall, and we'll have, gonna

have to make our own exit point."

So I las him this wall,

which did next to fuck all.

And I remember him, um, I made safe this

mini-me that was down, and I was butt

stroking a wall to create an exit hole for

us to be able to get the stretchers out.

Cas Evac was coming.

At this point, this is the most

fucking war I've ever seen.

You know, we- we've, we're guys

down, we've got serious incoming,

and they were following us up.

We end up doing like

a fighting withdrawal.

Me and two guys, two GPMG gunners,

and I kept hold of the mini-me.

Um, and we were doing like

almost like purse five maneuver.

Stretcher would move,

we'd hold the ground.

We'd move back, stretcher would cover us.

Got back into camp and,

um, the multiple itself, it

To say like they were rocked, you

know yourself, you've been on tour,

you know when lads have been hit.

You see it's not fear, it's just the

vacuum that comes after an adrenaline

rush, and the multiple was spent,

and I was spent, and I was like,

"Fucking hell. Fuck." And then,

uh, see a load of guys gearing up.

"What's going on?" And Butch

comes over to me and he's like, uh

Do you wanna bomb up?

What for?

We've got a job to do.

What do you mean?

Like, we're going back out

with the next multiple.

There's only us that does our job.

I was like, "What?" Fucking Kazivak's

coming in like blokes are like, "Were

you not just-- Did you not just live

through that like I did?" And he was

like, "Listen, right, no one will think

any less of you if you don't come.

You don't have to come at all.

Stay in camp if you want, you know.

It's fine.

Don't worry about it."

And he was like, "You decide."

I just want fucking help I do not

want to go back out on the ground.

I do not want to go

back out on the ground.

And I just thought to myself, "This

is a decision that, like, will

shape the entirety of my life.

What kind of man are you?" And I was

like, "Right, I will not look myself

in the mirror again if I don't go on

the ground now." 'Cause I was scared.

Like, I was fucking scared.

Like, and I don't go… Who says they

don't get… I was fucking terrified

'cause I'd just seen war at its,

at its zenith, and it was not nice.

And, you know, I had splash

coming in at our own men.

It weren't good.

And I was like, "Right." So we went

out, and I, it, the decision shaped my

entire life, and I had a very similar

experience like two months later.

We were in a mass camper tank.

It was on the news over here.

And, um, it were like something out of,

uh, fucking Apocalypse Now or Platoon.

Like, they were… They attacked our camp.

It was like a eight and a half

hour sustained engagement, and they

were running at the wire, getting

dropped, and then using the bodies

to spring, like springboard over the

wire and stuff, and we lost two guys.

A good friend of mine, Tom Keogh,

uh, tragically lost his life there.

And he'd been hit, and I was like,

I'd do- I was doing all the med stuff.

Like, I'd gone into this med stuff.

I really liked med stuff, and this PB

did have a medic, but he was a newer

guy 'cause he was from the tour that was

coming on, so he hadn't done that much.

And, and me and we were getting hit.

We had like, um, the PJs were down

with us, Pedro call signs, and they

were flying low over compounds,

like hand punching grenades out

the doors and stuff, and using that

mini gun to like the utmost effect.

And what a bunch of guys they are.

Like, holy shit.

The coolest blokes I've

ever met in my life.

If I could be reincarnated,

I want to be a Pedro, like.

And, um, Tom got hit, and it come across

the net, and I was like, "Right." And

I made, whacked my safety on, and I

was like, "Right, if I run across the

compound roof now, I can get to him."

And he was in the GMG, and there

was only him there, sandbags.

G- he was always the first to the GMG.

Greedy bastard, he was.

No one else could have any fun.

Tom had to have the fun with the GMG.

So it was raining on, like it, it

were raining into the valley with this

GMG, and then it suddenly went down.

It stopped.

He'd been hit, and I was like, "Right,

fuck it. Radio down." And at this point,

I'd had like smoke points billowing,

mor- uh, mortar barrels moving.

I was talking to the Pedro guys anyway,

and we were all putting rounds down 'cause

we were getting massively, massively hit.

And I put everything down, and I, I went

to run across the roofs, and I was working

with another MFC at this point, Gonzo.

Gonzo and Daz were like best mates.

Gonzo's like, "What you doing?" "Going

up in Tom." He said, "You can do

that if you want, but there's other

people that it's their job to do that.

No one else can do your job.

You do what you want to do." I was like,

"Fuck." Like, and I struggle with it now.

Like, leave your mate

to die or do your job.

But fucking greater good and all that,

so I did my job, and my mate died,

and it fucking shaped the rest of

my life, like long, long, long time.

But

The strength in them making those kind

of decisions and deciding at that young

age what kind of person you're gonna be.

Someone who goes in towards the

chaos and doesn't come back from

it, and somebody that does, makes

the hard choices even when it's

detrimental to your own wellbeing.

I think if you can decide you're gonna

be that kind of a person, it does nothing

but shape you for well in the future.

After therapy, obviously.

But- Yeah do you know, during

the mi- Yeah … uh, the finished

product is much more well-rounded.

Yeah.

But yeah, it were, as a company, I think

we lost 16, 16 dead, 48 seriously injured.

It were, it were heavy.

It were heavy, Eric Levin.

But what a time to be alive, and at least

I can say, well, no, we lived it, and, and

we lived it at that level and, you know,

I wanted it, and, um, the biggest life

lesson I always say to people is beware

what you wish for, 'cause I got everything

that I wanted and more in fucking

bucket loads, and I don't regret it.

But now, as an adult I don't

sit and think, wish for it

as much as I did back then.

And like I said before, once you've

had it and you've been kinetic, you,

you'll lose that offensive spirit.

Yeah.

You, you do anything

for a, a peaceful life.

Peaceful life, yeah.

You know?

There's a big difference between a man

that's experienced what you have, who's

peaceful, and a guy that's harmless.

And it's- Yeah, and it, it's a

good talking point, that, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you- It, it is … if you aren't

capable of violence, you're not peaceful,

you are harmless And not just violence,

I mean- Yeah, yeah, but- … extreme

violence- Yeah, yeah … you know?

It's what we were bred to do, innit?

Yeah.

There's, um… I was watching a

podcast the other day, and someone

said it in a really good way.

Like, "My family will never understand

the level of violence I had to

execute to now be this calm." Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's true.

It is.

And I always, when I see them

on, like, podcasts and stuff, and

guys are like, "Yeah, yeah," and

you're like, "You did nothing.

I know you did nothing," 'cause

you would not be like that now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look at all the good operators that are-

Yeah … from, from- Humble, quiet people

… yeah, just take it in their stride.

They don't chat about it a lot.

They keep things quiet.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, so the guys that

shout the loudest have normally

done- The least … the least.

And, you know, and someone's always

done more than you as well, you know?

Always.

If I look at everything I've done- Yeah

… absolutely fuck all compared to anyone.

It, it- And compared to someone

that might have joined now,

it's like- Yeah … it's, yeah.

And, um, like, now, look, I mean, God,

you look at Remembrance Day and, like,

platoon sergeants are cutting around with

jubilee medals, and you're like, "Fuck."

Like, the wa- Yeah,

they're just everywhere.

It's- … w- w- war fighters have

gone, 'cause we just got recycled-

Yeah … and recycled and recycled.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I mean, it, that tour

made me, shaped me who I, uh, who I

was as a person, who I was gonna be.

And, like, I've spoke to Butch many

years later and thanked him for that,

because I didn't wanna go back out,

and if there was a- another option

to not go, I wouldn't have done.

And I don't think anyone

would've wanted to go.

I don't think anyone else would've

gone through that and gone, "Right,

let's go straight back out on

another patrol." But it- I've just

that young, impressionable edge.

Do you know what I mean?

And he views it now, and he

said, "I knew what you'd do.

I knew who you were as a person.

I knew you'd come.

You just needed to make the decision

yourself." But there were a point

where I didn't know what decision I

was gonna make, and I think the growth

from that just, it shaped who I was

gonna be for, like, the rest of my life.

Yeah.

And there's moments like that that come

from the military, which was what I tell

people, that is why you join the military.

Yeah.

You wanna know who you are as a person.

Like, I've been to the bottom of my

soul in the military, and one thing I

found is I've always got more to give.

Yeah.

There's always summat left

in the bottom of the tank.

5%- Yeah … bit of sheer

grit, determination, or

just outright stubbornness.

There's always summat- When

you think you're done, there's

still, there's still more to go.

Yeah.

To give your all.

These distance runners say it, don't they?

Like, "Oh, when you think you're

done, you're still- you've

only actually gone 60%." Yeah.

Yeah.

You're like, "God, I hope not."

Yeah.

Yeah, so we've done Herrick 11,

and then I'd come back from that.

Um, and- My life started

going down a little bit.

I split up with me, me missus

I'd been with for a long time.

She supported me through the tour, and I

just had this-- I was going through this

period, I was just happy to be alive.

I was just happy to be alive,

I think, and I just wanted to

do whatever I wanted to do.

And then I, I ended up down here

on a gunnery course because I'd

just done gunnery in theater, and

I'd done it to a good level- Yeah

high standard, like not blowing

my own trumpet, but I did.

And so they put me on the next

level up, like go and do your level

threes, all this kind of stuff.

And whilst I was down there and I

was trying to reconcile with the

missus, and I were a lot angry.

I, I'd chucked me brother out

on leave, and m-I'd chucked

me mum's third husband out.

Um, he fell through my door, just

fell over a shoe, and I were asleep.

Shit me up, and I had him

up against the fucking wall.

"Who the fuck are you?" I was stroking

him and that, and I was like…

And I had a couple of instances,

and I were drinking a lot more.

Um, I mean, everyone drank in our-

Yeah … our, our generation of soldier.

Yeah.

We all drank.

Yeah.

But I would drink- Get

us alcoholics going.

But I was drinking and, um, I thought,

"I'm not all right here." And then BT were

doing all that stuff, you know, open reach

week and, and I thought, "You know what?

Why, why don't I go?" And at that

point, I think there was probably

a little bit more of my soul left

to save than I did in the end.

But, um, good friend of mine was like,

"We've been warned on for a new job."

And I was like, "What do you mean a

new job?" He says, "The shiny thing, a

new job." And he's like: Yeah, we were

like, "We've just sent a, um, well,

we've just sent a team out now, and

I'm putting the next team together."

And I'd just served with him in Sangin.

And he was like, uh, "I want you to

come." Like, "We've just, we just

worked really well together for a tour.

It's a new concept.

It's a new role for the unit.

This is the first full tour that the

unit's gonna do this job." Because

the guys that deployed, it was like

a theater-specific need, so they

only deployed for a short tour.

Um, and at this point it

were going really well.

So I was like, "Right, okay.

I'm thinking of signing off." But

then again, I had this moment where

I wouldn't live with myself for the

rest of my life if I, if I went,

"No, mate, sorry I'm signing off,"

and something had happened to him.

Do you feel like there's a little bit

of, like, a moral obligation- Yeah

to, uh, and your duty had called you to-

Yeah … "I need to be there," you know?

Yeah.

"I've been asked to go." Yeah.

"I've gotta go. I can't turn around

and tell someone I was going."

It's, yeah, it, it weren't the BC.

It weren't some brigade commander.

It were me mate.

Yeah.

It was me mate saying,

"We're doing a new job.

It's dangerous, and I want you

to come with me." And you don't

fucking say no to stuff like that.

No.

Like, you don't.

No matter how, no matter

what it is, you just don't.

And like, genuinely I would

have thought of myself as a

coward for the rest of my life.

And I was like, "Cool, let's

do it." And we got embedded

into the training for that.

Um, and then the guys on the ground

that were doing it fucking got hit bad.

We got like one dead, one completely

blinded, and one blinded in one

eye out of a team of six guys.

We were like, "Shit, this

job's real." Like it's a, this

is a, this is a proper job.

And we then-- I redeployed then, so I had

10 months in the UK between Herrick 11 and

deploying again on Herrick 14 for, uh…

We deployed as the theater surveillance

troop, and we were doing, um,

emplacements, which I won't give

out, I won't say too much about that

'cause it's still pretty secret.

Um, but this tour was, it were different.

It were much more sneaky beaky.

It was like going out at night, six

of you, putting stuff in the ground,

prosecuting shit bags when they were

going into firing points and stuff,

and th-them not even knowing that we'd

been there and all this kind of stuff.

And it wa- And then that for me,

I kind of felt like when I come

back off that tour And like the

job pre-predomin-predominantly was

done by Hereford originally, and

they passed it down and got bored

of it, which I understand why.

They were doing all the cool stuff, so

they were like, "Who wants this job?"

And we ended up with it.

And, um, I finished that tour and

I was like, "You know what? I feel

like well-rounded now as a soldier."

Like I've done one extreme and I've

gone to another because on the second

tour there was like… 'Cause we were

different, we, we worked to AO's, so we

bounced to different AO's all the time.

So you come in Bastion for a few days,

so you're getting a bit fresh and using

a bit of Wi-Fi and stuff, and you were

getting like a couple of, a couple

of glimpses at what it's like to be a

Bastionite, and then you were going out

to a PB for like a month, six weeks,

do the job or do that specific job,

and people just put ConOps in for us

to come down, and like, "Oh, we've got

this, we've got that, got the other.

What can you do to fix these

problems for us?" And we would tell

them what we could do, and then

they would either go yes or no.

We would deploy, do that, watch, embed,

watch the emplacement, then we would

leave a team that monitored the su- the,

monitor the emplacement while we went

and then relocated and reestablished

in other areas and other AO's.

So I got to see loads of the country,

I got to work with loads of different

foreign nationals and all that kind

of stuff, and that were like, it were

really good for me to experience the

other end of not just getting your

teeth kicked in, in Sangin, drinking

two liters of water a day, do you know?

Yeah.

It, it, it were, it were good.

But when we come back from that,

I'm almost like super pumped,

and then it's like, oh well,

we're not deploying anymore.

Like the war's over, we're

going to peacekeeping role.

And like obviously you know yourself like

Herrick 11, that was like 429 Alpha, and

then we were always under, um, pretty

much card Alpha on our second tour with,

we had like 429 Alpha in for specific

jobs, um, but only for periods of time.

So I'd gone from a war fighting role, 429

Alpha, to inherent right to self-defense,

and you've seen the de-escalation and

you've seen the difference in it, and I

also seen the drama that career registry

had brought to Herrick 11 and how that

was just implemented fucking far too

soon and, and it cost people their lives.

Um, so we'd come back from that

and then, yeah, we'd decided we

weren't going on tour anymore.

Well, we hadn't decided,

someone had decided for us.

The unit probably needed that

operational stand down 'cause

our tempo was really high.

Like I said before, been on every

Herrick from four to 16 or 17.

And um, all my peer group then

were getting out the military,

so I kind of thought, right

It's probably about time that I go.

And we'd got a new boss in, didn't

particularly like me, I didn't

particularly like him, and I knew

he was gonna make my life hard

for the next couple of years.

All my peer group, the guys I aspired to

be, were all going on the circuit, and

they were all like, "Come on the circuit

with us." And then like, you know, a lot

of my mates that stayed in there are like

sergeant majors and captains now, but

arguably they've done some Gucci stuff.

But they've done no more operational

tours since then when I left.

So I was like, you know what?

I don't- I weren't finished

with doing operational tour

stuff 'cause I enjoyed it.

I like the simplicity of being on tour.

Yeah.

I, I used to get up every morning in

Afghanistan and my sole objective of that

day was to get to the end of that day.

There was nothing else.

There was no mortgage, there

was no mobile phone bills.

Yeah.

There was no nothing.

There's nothing important, just get

up and survive- Peace in the chaos

of it … until you've… Yeah.

Survive until you're in your doss

bag tonight- Yeah … and then

you've completed that day, mate.

And if you do that

enough, then you go home.

Yeah.

And the simplicity behind

that is… I fucking love it.

Like I still now, I think about it

now, like I'd love to go back on tour.

Yeah.

And it wa- Life is so easy … we

had nothing to worry about, did we?

No.

Absolutely nothing.

Nothing.

You didn't know what's

in your bank account.

Get… Yeah, no.

Couldn't even check it, could you?

No.

Getting our morale boxes, getting

sent out- Yeah … and it was like

highlight, highlight of a few weeks

wasn't it, when they come out like-

Shoebox with some melted chocolate- Yeah.

… and some Haribos and toothpaste.

Like, "Yeah, it's Christmas" Like

it was just sort like a letter.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like a bluey would make

your life, wouldn't it?

Yeah, we got the bluey.

Oh, but especially when it was a

handwritten bluey- Yeah … 'cause

later on they ended up being-

Yeah, yeah … electronically done.

But a handwritten bluey, you know, we'd

just keep them and keep them when we

had one of our bosses and he had like,

he had like 16 boxes turned up once.

Yeah.

You know, good bloke.

Turned around- Yeah … shared them

with- Mm … with everyone as well.

Yeah.

It- Yeah … that, the camaraderie that

come from that period of time, do you

know, someone always had a Mrs who'd

like worked at a school and all the

kids had sent- Yeah … shoeboxes to

your unit and you're like, "Yeah- Yeah

I'm stacked up on Haribos." Yeah.

"So my eyes bleed" and stuff.

It was just… It were almost

like it were a little cuddle

that you needed that, weren't it?

Yeah.

And it were good, but like on Herrick

14, e-bluey would come around and it-

Yeah … it did take away from it.

It did take away from it.

Yeah.

Whereas you'd come on your bed and

there'd just be like three e-blueys like

it were a post and you're like, "Hmm."

Yeah.

It's not the same as it.

It's not quite the same.

Or you'd come back from a job

after five weeks and you'd

have like a stack of e-blueys.

Yeah.

You're dumped, you're

dumped, you're dumped.

You're Yeah.

But um, so yeah, we'd, we'd

come back and I'd decided I was

gonna go on the circuit then.

Um, and, and that was me.

I went and did my CP course and I

did another surveillance course even

though like my background was heavily

based on surveillance anywhere.

Um, just I wanted to kind of hit the

ground running 'cause I knew I was

about to start this whole problem

again of being a young guy in a, in

an older person's kind of environment,

'cause at this point I'm only 26.

Yeah.

And like, and at this point I

didn't even have a beard, so I,

I looked about 16 still And, um,

I was like, we were like, yeah.

So we got out and CP was the way forward

for me, and I te- after 10 years,

like, you know, I miss it every day.

But nostalgia creeps in there.

I don't miss guys making you do CFTs

at 6:00 in the morning with a head

torch on because of the can run camp.

Yeah.

But I do miss like, I split up with me

misses and the blokes kicking your door

in with a curtain and a speaker like,

"Goodbye, my lover" on it and stuff-

Yeah … and absolutely rinsing you,

and do you know, like e- every life

experience that you can have like, I

lost me first girlfriend in the mill,

and one of the pad- one of the pad's

wives was like, "Yeah, stop crying.

There's gonna be 100 more." "There's not.

There's not." There's not.

That's my only one.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

No, there will, honestly.

Trust me.

Yeah.

I'll see you in Harry's on Friday.

We'll sort it out for you.

Yeah.

We'll find you next girl.

Do you know what?

And like, because everyone was

so much older, I really did…

I were like, I were brought up

in that unit, and I, I, I was,

and I treasure that memory.

Like it's, serving with them blokes

was just the fucking biggest privilege

of my life ever, and anyone who was,

you know, the triangle on their arm

has my respect, but the, the guys

that were in during my period of

time, we were, it, we were family.

Like you didn't even call your

bosses sir, you called them boss.

Yeah.

You know, you slam your tabs

in for sergeant major in the

BC and everything like that.

You walked up, "Boss, do you

want a brew?" Or, "Boss, you

getting the brews on?" Yeah.

And you'd be like, "Why am I getting the

brews on?" "Well, you're left tenant.

I've spent more time on leave than

you've been in the mill." Yeah.

And like, and the good thing about

our unit is like all the officers

went through selection, so at

some point you'd been their DS.

Yeah.

So when officers come for you,

you're like, "Right." Yeah.

"Crank it up on these boys- Yeah

… 'cause they're gonna crank it up on

us when they get into the troops."

Yeah.

Like, so it was good, and we were all

just a big family, and like, even when

we got out, the BC before the, the one

in tenure before the one that came in

when I left, he's come surfing with us.

Legendary bloke.

He's like, "Oh, I heard you boys

go surfing on a Wednesday of sports

afternoon." We were like, "Yeah."

"Can I come?" "Can you surf?"

"Oh, yeah." You know what I mean?

Love it.

Wednesday sports afternoon,

you're surfing with your boss.

Like it's mega.

And there's things like that, like for

those that don't know, in the Field Army

it's not really the done thing, is it?

No.

You don't really have like,

officers are very like- Yeah

well, I wouldn't even say.

They, they're told not to socialize with-

Yeah … with soldiers, aren't they?

Yeah.

So it's, you know, such a small

unit a- and that relationship you

have with them to, to go out with

your boss is- Yeah … is huge.

Yeah.

Huge.

And like even now, like I'm

personal friends with, with a, a

few officers from my unit, like one

of them come to Ukraine with me.

Do you know?

Yeah.

And, and he reached out to me, "I wanna do

some stuff in Ukraine." And I still call

him boss, and he's like, "Well, yeah, so

technically you're the boss now." Yeah.

No, no.

It doesn't sit right.

Yeah.

It doesn't sit.

You're- It sounds wrong.

You're still the boss … you'll always,

you'll always be the boss, you know?

Yeah.

And yeah, it, it's weird,

but it means a lot to me.

Like, it means a lot to me.

Just think about it now and just think

like… And the one thing I worry about

doing podcasts and stuff is, and I've

done a couple now, is- One person doesn't

know that I've got PTSD or whatever,

finds out about it, and then views

me as a little bit less than I was.

Like, the only thing I want from

my military service is not, you

know, I wasn't a VC winner, nothing.

I, I'd done some cool stuff

and, and that's enough for me.

But all I want is for people to

go, "He was a good soldier." Yeah.

That's all that's important to me.

Yeah.

And I do… Like, even today I sat

in the car for like five minutes and

just put my head back in its box.

I'm like, "What if someone finds

out and someone thinks you're a

fucking basket case?" And I'm like-

Yeah … "Why are we even talking to

ourself like this, Ryan, anymore?" Yeah.

Like, we- we've been doing

this for 10 years now.

Like, come on.

And it's… Yeah.

And, and who fucking cares

now as well, you know?

The world's gone on a lot.

It doesn't even matter, does it now?

It, it doesn't matter.

No.

And I think it's hard 'cause I think

some people may look at it like, "Oh,

you're less of a person- Mm … because

you've got some mental health issues."

But you know, your real friends wouldn't.

Yeah.

You know, half the combat field team

have got mental health issues, you know?

Yeah.

We're… Especially the

military lads, you know?

Mm. Like, I'd say the majority

of the guys that have served

have been through therapy.

Yeah.

You know, they're some of the, the

best war fighters that I've ever met.

Mm. And you know, we wouldn't

look at them any different.

No.

And it's, it's very different to

10 years ago where it was like-

You internalize it, don't you?

Yeah Like we, we knew at

the time like fucking hell.

Like we knew there were blokes in our

unit that like were not all right.

And it's… You, you never look at

someone like the old videos of like-

Yeah … World War II, World War

I, the guys that got shell shock-

Yeah … which obviously shell shock-

Yeah, yeah … is PTSD, you know?

Mm. We wouldn't look at them

and be like, "Oh, mincer." Yeah.

You're like, "Holy-"

"What's wrong with you?

Get over it, get over it." Like he's had,

he, he's had a hard day and like Yeah.

Like- Yeah.

It's, it's mad, innit?

Like, but it was, and the army's changed

completely now and, and the mentality

behind it is like… I remember coming off

Herc 11 and I was, I was onboarding on my

flight and I was already missed me- I'd

already missed one flight and I were late

getting off the ground, and some, some r-

clerk from one hour at check comes to me

and like, "Are you Witchcraft 2-6 Echo?"

I was like, "Yeah." "We've got no

TRIM paperwork for you." I'm like,

"What's TRIM?" And they're like,

"Oh, trauma risk incident management.

You're supposed to do this paperwork

every time you've been in like a

tick or, or an incident." Yeah.

I was like, "Are you joking?" I was

like, "Well, no one's done them with me."

Like, "Oh, well, we need to do them."

Have you just experienced my tour?

Yeah.

Because I'm not missing this

flight to do this paperwork.

Like, it's not that important to me.

Yeah.

And they were like, "Okay, we'll just do

it." 'Cause it- we knew and that was, we

just tick in the box of mental health, but

now I'm like- Yeah, yeah … I were part

of the problem 'cause I'm not doing that.

I'm getting on this flight.

Yeah.

But actually like, yeah.

But what, yeah, and what Cyprus

decompression like a day and

a half- 24 hours … like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bloodhome camp.

Is you can have one beer.

Yeah.

No one had one beer, did they?

Yeah.

Go, go sw- right.

Do you want to go play

on banana boats and shit?

Go swim to that buoy and come back.

Lads that can't swim,

fucking dragging them around.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, you decompress.

Anyone got any issues?

No.

Come back in camp, few weeks

off, back in, clean some weapons.

Anyone got any issues?

You might be feeling this.

I just want to fucking go for a drink.

Yeah.

Leave us alone.

And, and then I was like

that- When can I go and leave?

When we- when are you gonna

leave me alone for a little bit?

Yeah.

And that, that was the

extent of it, wasn't it?

Yeah.

You know, I come from a very grown-up

battalion where the guys that had done,

uh, earlier tours and, and had issues,

they were sort of like, "Go away.

Come back when you're ready." Yeah.

I mean, I know lads that were like four

to six months away from battalion like- Mm

sorting their own heads out.

Yeah.

And you know, without naming

names, like one of them's

still serving today, you know?

Yeah.

And it's… And that comes down to like

your unit and how- Yeah … how your unit-

But what- … help manage you as well.

What a great mentality

from the battalion though.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Like, yeah, it's not

basket case these people.

It's giving them the space that they

need, and giving them the outlet they

need- Yeah … and retain that soldier.

Yeah.

And I think the military lost

a lot of people because of the

amount of stigma and almost shit.

I remember like I walked around

embarrassed and ashamed of who I was

as a human being because I had PTSD.

PTSD, chronic fatigue, and chronic burnout

I was diagnosed with, and I hate saying

chronic fatigue and chronic burnout

because it sounds so fucking pathetic.

Chronic fatigue and burnout.

I've only been in the army 10 years.

I think, I think- Like what

the fuck burnt out from?

Yeah.

Like I think it only sounds

pathetic to us because we, we

hold ourself, hold ourselves to

a different standard, you know?

Yeah.

Like there's no disrespect to civilians

or anything like that, you know.

Yeah.

Civvies work damn hard- Yeah,

yeah … in jobs that they do, you

know, achieve brilliant things,

but- It's just different, isn't it?

Yeah.

And it's the only way you can

describe it is it's just different.

Yeah.

And it's- And it's, if he's got it,

that's fine, but I can't have it.

And- Yeah … like- I wouldn't have

it, no … I attribute a lot… I

think we're fortunate in a way that

we went through COVID because a lot of

people, like you can attribute it now.

You can go, "Well, do you know why

we didn't like COVID?" No one wanted

to be near you, even with a mask on,

'cause of what you had were catching.

Yeah.

That's what the army used to be

like when the new people had PTSD.

Yeah.

People used to swerve bods or

stay- Yeah … away from him.

He's tapped.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stay… He needs to cuddle him.

Stay away from him.

Yeah.

Actually, it should've been

bring him into the fold and, and

let's get this boy sorted out.

Yeah.

But it weren't because the army

couldn't have problems 'cause

we're all too double hard and-

Yeah … like all this kind of stuff.

Yeah, we don't do, nah.

No, there's no mental health

in the British Army at all.

Nah, we don't have that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the fact that we're all laughing

and drinking brews while people are

shooting at us is not normal, guys.

Yeah.

Just in case anyone's wondering.

Yeah.

Like we're famous for

it, and it's unhealthy.

It's an unhealthy- And

it's- … coping mechanism … yeah.

And it's like there's that

distinction isn't there?

Oh, it's army, it's fine.

Yeah.

Without forgetting like the

army's the entity, like there's

still real people that are- Yeah

are doing the job.

Yeah.

And it, yeah.

It's- It's- What we do is not normal.

No.

It's, it's not normal.

In any regard.

And then but, yeah, and then you

wanna feel like you've not do-

you've done something that's not

normal to a really good standard,

but then it's not bothered you.

Yeah.

And that if it has bothered

you, you're the problem.

Yeah.

Not the entire situation of blokes

getting their faces evis- eviscerated.

Yeah.

That's not the problem.

Yeah.

You're the problem because you

don't want to eat fucking Domino's

after you've had that night.

Yeah.

What you've seen that night and all that.

It's, it's mad, but what a time

to be alive, like and I- Yeah

I, I endorse the military to everybody,

and a lot of people know, you know,

doing what I do with veterans, army

people, like, "Are you anti…?" No.

Like the military- No.

Love it … the military

was the making of me.

I would not be the man I am- Would,

would you join back up in a heartbeat

and do everything over again?

I wouldn't change one day.

One- knowing now what, what I do, and

knowing the, like the detriment it's

had to my life moving forward, but the

growth that's come from it, and the

avenues that I've paved for myself from

it, I wouldn't change a fucking thing.

The only thing I'd change is prob-

I probably wouldn't have got out.

I'd have probably stayed in a little

bit longer and just seen if I could,

if I could tread that water and if

it would be all right and you know.

And it's, it's funny really, isn't it?

That you can endure what you

endured across two fighting tours-

But a guy that you didn't get on

with was like- Being your boss

I can't manage that.

Yeah.

How can I manage that?

Yeah.

Take me into any firefight any day,

but- Yeah, yeah … dealing with a

person that I don't get on with, nah.

Yeah.

That's, that's my LOE, like.

Do you know what?

I've never thought about it like

that, but you are completely right.

It's- Like it's something so just,

just manage it like a human- Yeah

just, yeah, but- And, and our

default setting is like, well, if

we can't manage it, we'll scrap.

Yeah.

You know, like, but being a superiority

it wouldn't have ended well, would it?

No.

Would've been glass houses and- Oh, yeah.

And you know, he would-

he'd have made my life hard.

I'd have been like, I'd have been

on guard, I'd have been doing

guard to IC and guard commander

for till me eyes bled- Yeah

and every corrupt thing that came at

my name would've been first in the hat.

Yeah.

And it seems weird to, to think that

you look back and I think, oh, it's

not even that bad, like- No … it's

that hard for him, but- Yeah.

But at the time- I can enjoy that.

Fuck no.

No, no, no.

Absolutely not.

The shame, constant guard

to IC and guard commander.

Yeah.

It's, it's weird, isn't it?

On reflection- Yeah … how you look at

these things and think like, actually

it's like- Yeah … it's an absolute

non-issue, but- Yeah, getting paid … to

me at the time that was like, I'm

getting paid to sit there like, and

like stealing a wage really, isn't it?

Yeah.

Reading me books and making

guys do fire pickets.

Touching my cock and reading me books.

Yeah, just chilling out.

Yeah.

Getting that down.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Taking some short periods and

stuff, but not unacceptable.

Yeah.

I cannot work with that.

I need to change my career.

So we've done some time on the,

the CP circuit- Yeah … in Iraq.

What we wanna touch on though

is your PTSD that you mentioned.

Yeah.

When did you first notice you had issues?

I think I first noticed I had issues

when I come back from ERIC 11, but-

It's like when you're surrounded by

people that are similar- Yeah … you

don't really see it, do you?

And, um, for me, I had a big incident,

um, in Iraq at Balad with ISIS, and

um, it was a proper, like, life or

death situation, and it was-- We were

in a situation where it looked like

we were all gonna get killed to a man.

Um, we were just surrounded,

cut off, outnumbered, uh,

and we were left on our own.

Um, I'd tried to crash out QRF and

stuff from Iraq, from Baghdad, but

that were coming from no-nowhere.

That were going nowhere.

Um, and I'd kind of been naively

led down the garden path a little

bit that we were gonna be all right.

We subcontracted to another company,

and I just got a phone call one morning

like, "You need to come to the TOC.

Come to the TOC." Got there, and he's

like, "Have you seen this?" South

African guy's like, "Have you seen

this?" Panning around on cameras,

and we were just surrounded by ISIS.

And a couple of days before they took

Mosul, and we were further south, and

they were heading for-towards Baghdad.

And I was like, "Shit." And I was

like, "What's going on?" And he

says like, "Look, they say they're

coming in." I'm like, "Well, they're

fucking coming in then." Like, "Have

you seen how many there are of them?

If they say they're coming in here,

they're coming in here." Yeah.

Like, "We've got an AK with five mags

and a pistol with two mags, mate."

Like, "They've got armored

fighting vehicles and .50

caliber machine guns mounted.

Like, if they say they're coming in here,

they're coming in here." And he's like,

"We need to get rid of the principals."

And I was like, "What's the Iraqi Air

Force doing?" And he's like, "Boom," pans

camera, "fucking surrendering to a man."

Literally like you're at the football-

Yeah … queuing for a ticket,

handing their weapons in, and then

they were pulling out like heads

of sheds and guys of authority and

stuff and fucking executing them.

Wow.

Um, there's some famous footage of like

one of the Iraqi Air Force officers,

um, in a Manchester United football top,

and they drag him off to the side, and

he's walking over to it, and he knows

he's getting executed 'cause there's a

pile of bodies there, and his fucking

knees barely touch the floor before

they put one in the back of his head.

And we're watching this on camera,

and we're like, "Fuck." And then this

guy from Sally Port's like, 'cause

we were subbed into Sally Port at

the time, um, he's like, "We've got

a, we've got an airliner coming in.

Everything's gonna be all right.

Everyone's gonna get on that." Now, it

did cross my mind at this point that I

had 55 guys and a fleet of like, what?

25 vehicles Vehicles won't fit on a plane.

But I just kind of thought the

situation is like one of these

existential circumstances.

We'll leave the vehicles or summat,

um, when these boys have, like,

partied themselves out after

they've taken camp and moved on.

We'll come back for them or something.

Yeah.

Like, but again, like I was,

I was a site lead there.

I had 55 guys on my flick, 25 vehicles,

and a lot of these guys, like the

expats, I had a lot of Americans to be

fair 'cause it's an American company,

some Brits, couple of guys that were

from my unit actually, but they weren't

specifically with me on this job.

And they're all like, "What's going on?

What's going on?

What's going on?" And I'm like,

"Well, we're gonna be all right.

We're going to get on this plane." And

they're like, "Are you sure?" I was

like, "That's what he's telling me."

"Well, what's Baghdad said- Baghdad

saying?" And I'm like, "I've told you

everything that they're telling me.

We're gonna be all right." Baghdad just

went, "Get back to Baghdad." I'm like,

"We're fucking surrounded." They're

like, "Just get back to Baghdad." So

anyway, we're getting all the principals

and stuff, and we're loading them onto

this airliner because that's our job.

So we're at the flight line, and

then like, not quite like this, but

almost like, I go to get on the steps

and he's like, "Oh, cheers, mate."

Shakes my hand.

"Good luck." "What do you mean?" He's

like, "Oi, you're not part of Sally Port.

You're not getting on here." I'm,

"What?" And literally, mate, they flew.

They went.

All the people that worked for

them, the guys that worked in the

laundry, like, and, and I'm-- this

is not me valuing anyone's life

less than mine, but like buck sheet

toms that folded underpants, mate.

Do you know what I mean?

Were on this flight line like waving at

me out the window, and I'm like- Yeah

… "Ah, God, I've g- I've got to wait for

the gate." So we were like, there went

and then I'm not Navy, but I think the

closest thing to I've ever experienced to

a mutiny was, was on my hands then 'cause

the boys are like, "What are we doing?"

And I was like, "There's

nothing we can do." Like we

couldn't go through the fence.

Impossible.

Even though we had B6 armored,

there was just nowhere.

It was like fence after fence after fence.

So I was like, "Right, let's go to

the main point of camp," and there's

a chicane and it was a proper decent

obviously 'cause Americans have built

this camp, proper decent chicane.

Do you know big concrete walls

in, in, in, and they're all

getting radged up down the bottom.

Cele- celebratory fire going on,

all loudhailers and stuff, flags

going and I'm like, "Oh God."

It's like a beheading party that.

So we go up vehicles to this choke point.

Buds are like stacking up behind the

engine blocks and stuff, mags out, and

I'm genuinely like, I don't even mean

it to sound cool 'cause it weren't,

it were just fucking acceptance.

I was just like cell alive daily.

Like they're gonna push and we're

gonna have to push back and, and

we are gonna get overrun and,

and, and gulf like overwhelmed.

There's, there's no other way.

Um, they pushed, we pushed back.

Um, chicane did us a massive favor.

The bottleneck we created

did us a massive favor.

Um, I bet you it weren't two or three

minutes of exchanging two-way range

and then one of them just got on the

loudspeaker and was like, "You've got

12 hours to get out of camp." And I was

like, "We don't need 12 fucking minutes.

Everyone in your vehicles.

Let's go." Didn't even go back to

our rooms, mate, for our stuff.

Like all mission critical kit

were in the vehicles anyway.

We left all our personal kit, everything.

We literally got in our fucking B6

armored, mate, and we just, we just fled.

And then en route Irish, the

fucking lid of my Pandora's box

just blew open, uh, and I did not

like what I fucking found inside.

I'd like, I'd, I'd been in kinetic

situations and stuff like that before.

You always get that adrenaline

rush and then when you come down

you get that kind of subduedness.

But that, this feeling was

just totally different.

It were like, I think it were probably

a panic attack knowing what I know now.

But like one quite controlled

'cause I'm still the gaffer and

I'm still leading, I'm still in

a vehicle with guys and stuff.

But I was shook to my core, like and

then I, I just started remembering

all this other close calling.

I don't-- I think that other than like

when I was, you know, dealing with

Pollet and then going grabbing Sarge

and think I'm gonna fucking die now.

Like I thought I was gonna die then,

but I, I felt like I had a chance.

But in that situation in Iraq,

I'd accepted I was gonna die

and my only, my only aim then

was making them fuckers earn it.

And, and I think when you've been at

that point and then it doesn't come

That there's just a fucking wave of like

weird emotions that come off the back

of it, and it just busted my fucking

Pandora's box right open, and years of

stuff that had gone on and everything

was like at the forefront of my thinking.

And then I started…

Like I was still on t- we were

still on jobs, you know what I mean?

So, uh, we had to carry on rotations

and stuff, but I was like, I

felt betrayed by my company.

Like I felt like, you know, "I rung you

and you just said get back to Iraq."

Like, "Get back to Baghdad," sorry.

And like, what the

fucking good helps that?

And then I felt like I let the bo-

blokes down because I was in charge.

We were in a situation that could

I have navigated any differently?

No, 'cause, uh, we still had a job to do.

We still had someone paying our wages.

There is no security in security.

But at the same time, you know, uh, those

boys could've been dead and on my flick.

Um, and I was just like, "Fuck." And

we got back to Baghdad, flew into

the office, mate, like a banshee.

And, uh, the guy in charge

was a Macedonian bloke, and

I was fucking going at him.

I was gonna kill him.

And, um, we, we did a few more jobs.

I think I lasted another four or

five months, and then ISIS had like

constricted movement that much in Baghdad

that we were limited to airport runs.

That was it.

So everyone that wasn't on the

oil fields in Basra and stuff

for SOC minus actual Americans.

So all your expats, like your Canadians,

we had a couple of Aussies, um, Brits and

stuff, they let 17 of us go overnight.

They called us into, um, it- ops room,

"Right, you 17 are going home tomorrow."

And I was like, "You know what?

Fine." And I've, and I've never to this

day done anything security related again.

I've done some sec- not sec- I've done

some surveillance stuff to help people

out on jobs, but I will never, never do

security again because there is no one.

Well, unless it's like, you know, team

of my boys- Yeah … that I know I can

depend on when the shit hits the fan.

Never again.

And I haven't.

I came back from that and

started the fitness industry,

and I haven't looked back.

And, um, and what point

did you start getting help?

Late 2014, early 2015, um, I'd

had my gym about a year, uh, and

People used to a- uh, people used

to say, like, do you know when you

walk into a room and people are

laughing, you think, "Are people

laughing at me?" 'Cause it stops.

Yeah.

That weren't the situation

when I walked into a room.

I walked into a room and people

stopped 'cause I sucked the

fucking morale out that room.

I were like a black cloud of hate.

I'd go in and people would be

laughing and joking, and people

wouldn't know what to say.

They wouldn't know what mood I was in.

They wouldn't know what

Ryan they would get.

Like, I sacked one lad, mate, once

because there were no shit roll left

in toilets, and I got in at 6:00 in the

morning in the gym and I wanted a shit.

Sacked him.

What a cock.

It's- What a cock … we, we laugh it

now- Yeah … because it's funny, but

you think like- What a cock … it's a,

it's a geezer's like- Livelihood … job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gone.

I mean, I did give him his job back

in a week, but- … do you know?

Like, and it was just overreactive

stuff like that all the time.

Yeah.

And then I found myself, I

was in this position of I was

chasing immediate gratification.

I'm not proud of it, you know.

I had a girlfriend, but I was cheating.

I was doing recreational drugs.

I was doing steroids.

I wanted to be fucking massive 'cause

I felt insecure and I felt weak 'cause

I still felt like that guy in the

vehicle on the way back to Baghdad.

Like, I didn't feel confident.

I'd gone from feeling bulletproof and

invincible to feeling fragile and like

I genuinely, until that vehicle, I

bet you there's only five times in my

life before that I'd second-guessed

myself since I've been in the military.

Other than that, I was so

assured in my decision-making.

I was so confident- Yeah … in what

I was doing, and all of a sudden I was

second-guessing everything, and I weren't

confident who I was or what was doing.

And I, then I just got angry over it.

Like I don't, like I don't deserve…

Why the fuck am I like this?

And I were embarrassed, so then I

doubled down on the aggression again,

because in the military, aggression

carries you through everything.

Yeah.

But it's just a masking emotion.

It, it fixes issues, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's- If in doubt,

just up your aggression levels-

Yeah … and it'll sort it all out.

Like aggression will carry

you through everything.

So, I got to a point where

I'd had a few incidents.

Um, I snapped some guy's forearm

and cheekbone in Bolton on a night

out, but fortunately for me, he

were hitting his misses at the

time, and I'd gone to separate them.

I hadn't been drinking.

I'd just tipped up to meet my mates

and, um, as I was walking up a s-

walking her away from him up this…

They were down a side street, and I'd

just seen him walloping her, and my

brother's dad hit my mum and stuff

like that, and I, I won't fucking

tolerate guys putting hands on women.

It's not right.

So I've flown down, and at this

point, well round you, Ryan.

I've just separated them.

"Fuck off home, mate. Speak to her

tomorrow," and all this kind of stuff.

And as I'm walking, this brick landed

at side of me, and I was like, "Cheeky

bastard." I'm like, "Nah, you don't

do that to me." So I've turned around,

and he had two mates down the other

end of the street with him, and

I'm like, "What kind of blokes are

watching their mate hit their misses?"

But they're running up this side street

then, and I've got one mate with me,

and he's running down, and I'm like,

"What's going on here?" Um, and he's

like, "Turn around." And I, and I see him

coming, so anyway, I, I've hit this bloke

and broke his cheekbone and, um, I was

tangling with another guy, and my mate

was tangling with this bloke, and the lad

on the floor was trying to grab my legs.

And, mate, I swear to you,

it's the easiest decision,

the, the clearest decision.

Like I've been an optimized mate.

I was like- If he takes me down, they're

gonna stamp on my head and they're

gonna kill me, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna

take him out this equation right now.

Turned around, booted him in the head, and

he, he come back, and his arm went over

a curb, and I just stamped down on it.

And it's like, problem done.

Yeah.

And then as I turned round, some copper

CS gas sprayed me, and I got lifted.

Um, and that went through to court, and,

uh, fortunately for me, uh, I went to

court and it was pissing down, and I seen

this old boy running, walking up these

steps, and I've gone running out, uh, suit

on, medals and that, trying my best- Yeah

you know, help me out.

I knew I was in the shit.

And I'm, "Come on, old-timer."

Didn't know who he was.

"Come on, old-timer, get up

here." Got a brolly and that.

One of, one of m- who's my mates

now, who was an officer in my unit,

he's tipped up, medals, uniform.

Ryan's an upstanding, you know,

character reference and stuff.

I've gone in, and this old

boy's one of my judges.

I've got three judges.

Anyway, um, and I've never looked

at it, and I still don't agree with

how they looked at it, but a woman

judge was gonna send me to prison

for two years, and she basically had

said I caused the entire situation.

It's like, "How'd you figure that?"

She's like, "'Cause you could have just

run away when that brick landed and

you didn't, and look at all the damage

that was caused because of that." I

was like, "But also, he could have

thrown another brick and killed me.

Shit, but he didn't get

that chance, did he?"

And I was like, "Mm, one way

of looking at it." Uh, and then

weirdly enough, um, the old boy's

like, "Can I have a word with you?"

I was like, "Yeah." "Uh, I'm an ex-royal

engineer, me." And I was like, "You

fucking dancer." You fucking dancer.

And he was like, "Uh, they wanted

to send you down then too, lad."

He's like, "You've gotta be careful.

They're cracking down on soldiers

now." He's like, "I don't disagree

with what you've done, but you've

gotta take on board what she said."

Um, you know, I got a suspended

sentence for, like, three years, and

at that point then I was like, "Right,

I can't fucking do this." Like, "I

am too good-looking for prison."

I'll get passed around like currency.

So I was like, "Right." And, um, you

know, the missus at home, who the girls

were at the time, I was living with her.

She was like, "You know,

we don't do nothing.

You don't wanna go out nowhere.

You're drinking all the time.

Um, go and get help or I'm gonna

leave you." So I started the,

like, um, I started therapy.

I didn't wanna go through any military

charities, so I went through the NHS,

which I'm really glad I did in actual

fact, because I create- I found a

route that worked for me, quite a fast,

expedient route, but also I got a lot

of experience of, like, what the NHS can

offer outside of the military environment.

Um, and that's a lot of, a lot

of the lessons I've learned

through that period then.

I push onto the guys from the VA,

um, when we send guys through.

But I'd started therapy, um,

and I'd done what everyone

does who goes through therapy.

I'm fixed, me now.

I'm doing really well.

Yeah.

I'm gonna help someone.

So then I wanted to help a guy from

my unit, and, uh, he was living

on my couch at the time, and then

fucking hell, me and him just mutually

supported each other on a massive

descent 'cause I was nowhere- Yeah.

nowhere near was I ready to help someone.

So me and him just sat in my flat in

a black cloud of fear- Yeah … both

of feeding each other's PTSD.

Yeah.

And then, um, I carried on working on

myself and stuff, and I got to a point

where- I've been doing therapy for

about a year, so this will be late 2015.

And, uh, a guy that I'd served with

in Af- in Herrick 11 tragically

took his own life, and I was just

like, "You jack bastard," like

why, why, why have you done that?

Why have you not spoke to me?

Like, why haven't I reached out?

And then I just thought, "Well,

why'd he reach out to you 'cause

you're hiding your problems from…"

At this point, mate, my own parents

didn't know I was going to therapy.

Like, I have my gym I used to

book out from 12 o'clock on a

Friday- Yeah … to go at therapy.

It was dead quiet.

No one really knew about it.

Just my missus at the time, maybe two

friends, and this is like a year in.

Like, I was so ashamed

of it, so ashamed of it.

And, um, I was like, "Well, he

wouldn't know to come to you, would

he?" So at that point then I was

like, "No, I'm not having this.

No, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna

be in this position ever again."

So I decided, like, to take my recovery

onto social media and be dead honest.

And then our good friend Rick-

Yeah … um, I wrote a blog.

Spoke to him about it.

He said, you know, "Write down how you're

feeling and, and what it is you wanna say,

and I'll help you structure it." So I did.

Wrote it down.

Um, I used to call it

like my nighttime session.

I had PTSD related insomnia

for like two years.

So like when I was up at like 3:00 in the

morning, I'd just write little bits- Yeah

… do you know, of what I wanted to say.

And it, I must've just brain dumped

like so much stuff on Rick, but put it

together and he was like, "What do you

think?" And I went, "Oh, it's good."

He went, "Oh, that's good 'cause I've

put it on the website as a blog." I was

like, "What?" And, and, and that was that.

And I kind of, I leaned into that

then and I was like, "Right, I've,

I've, I've planted me flag now, so now

you've gotta defend it- Yeah … from

what comes." And, and that was really

the start of where it all came from.

Then I started looking after myself

but trying to help other people.

Uh, predominantly I started,

like, doing, um, mental health

boot camps and stuff like that.

So get guys in, let you know, shared

austerity, thrash 'em to within an

inch of their lives, make people

partner up with people that they

don't know, and then at the end

we'd have like a fellowship meeting.

"Who's got anything they wanna

talk about?" If no one had anything

they wanted to talk about, I'd

then lead the conversation.

You know, what is giving with

an expectation of receiving, why

you shouldn't do this, how to

use a CBT mindset or whatever.

And then people would start with their

own little problems, and other people

would get involved, and it, it just grew.

And then I started helping out on

a recovery platform which reached

like a million people a month, um,

talking specifically about, you know,

my mental health and my journey with

PTSD 'cause this was like, what?

2020. Still weren't as, as

talked about as it is now.

Still weren't as, popular is not the

right word, but it weren't as forthcoming.

People weren't as welcoming to speak

about it, were they, as they are now.

And, um, I just found myself in this

position where I was like talk about

it a, a lot and then obviously pull out

of Afghanistan, and at this point then

we'd gone through, there was a period

of time where I think we'd lost like

16 veterans in 10 days or something.

And I wa- I was on a, a live talk, and I

had about 2,000 people on, um, 'cause I

did a lot of gost- guest speaking as well

at like gyms and businesses and stuff.

You know, what makes a good leader

and all, burn the boats and all

that kind of stuff, you know.

Yeah.

I just find myself keep continuously

saying somebody somewhere has

got a duty of care to these guys.

And someone just put it at my

toes, I'm like, "Well, why don't

you do something then?" Now I'm a

northern gobshite, me, and I assumed

it'd be well easier than it is.

I was like, "Fucking will do then." Yeah.

And, um, yeah, like that there

was launched the Veterans Army.

Yeah.

And, and that's where it come

from, like just me being a bit

of a gobshite but wanting to…

I just wanted to help people.

The pre- the premise behind it

was is that I'd been through so

much, as in PTSD, late insomnia.

I bet you I tried 40 or 50

different ways to sleep with PTSD.

You know, loads of stuff, and I just

wanted to kind of create a fast track

for people predominantly, and it was

just gonna be an online thing, you

know, peer support group, whatever- Yeah

um, with like some tips and

tricks, some fast-tracking.

You know, I use CBD oil and stuff,

and like what company I used, and

products that I'd used that I didn't

really rate, and products that I

had used that I did rate, and stuff

like that, and I didn't, I didn't

anticipate it being any more than that.

Um, until Ukraine, and then

God, like we just skyrocketed.

Um, the whole Ukraine job and stuff

since then, we just, like we grew

at a rate that we just could not

main- or we still can't maintain now.

Like it absolutely just… The, I

did not realize that the level of

problem within the veterans community

is- Yeah … uh, uh, like I knew

it were bad, but I didn't see it.

I didn't realize how bad it was.

And if you say, like take yourself,

for example, how you were feeling

and keeping yourself well hidden,

like you're embarrassed and ashamed

by it, and how many lads deployed

on tours and have had issues, 'cause

no one talked about it, did they?

No.

It's, I think that's when it

comes to fruition, didn't it?

Yeah.

Especially during COVID when it

was then like, oh shit, like we're-

Yeah … by ourselves now, and that's,

you know, th- there was a lot of

suicides- Yeah, yeah … around COVID.

There was.

That, that loneliness and when lads

just couldn't keep on top of it, but-

Yeah … you know, I think different to

other charities, and I think a lot of

the charities do a good job and, and you

know, they, a lot of them do help people.

But what's unique about Veterans

Army is it's founded by you and

led by you, who's been through it.

You know, you've had hard

operational tours, you've had

PTSD, so you know exactly how to-

Yeah … look after the blokes.

You know, like things like Op Courage with

the NHS is brilliant, and they do help.

But having the steer on it from

someone who's literally like,

"This is how we, we need to do it."

Yeah.

You know?

And tell us a little bit about how

you go through the therapy, 'cause you

do it a little bit different, don't

you- Yeah … um, with the guys that

you, you help, and it's quite intense.

Yeah.

So I mean, we have a, a massive array of

different, um, mental health services, but

the one that we're most proud of is, um,

we offer guys UltraBLS, so Ultra Bilateral

Stimulation, which is basically like

EMDR but on steroids, and it's impactful.

So I personally cannot think of a

single candidate that's done more

than three sessions of EMDR for a

specific trauma that has not been

completely put to bed in their body.

Um, the practitioner behind

it is an absolute legend.

Um, he's a veteran himself.

Um, spent a bit of time at His

Majes- Her Majesty's pleasure.

Um- He developed this whole concept

on the wings of being in prison

himself, seeing the amount of veterans

on the wings that had mental health.

He then created a whole project called

TLS, um, which subsequently after he

was released, um, four prisons in the

north kept him coming back, paying

him to come and deal- deliver his

project on the wings because it was

so impactful to veterans and stuff.

And then, um, the government

basically shit on him and stole his

project and called it Project Nova.

Shocking.

Yeah.

So like the Project Nova was actually

formulated by a veteran who was in

prison at the time, seen the problem.

He's got all these qualifications and all

that kind of stuff and, and he developed

it, and then they took it from him.

So the big thing about Veterans

Army is I, I, I'm all about

veterans helping veterans.

You know, if you're a veteran

landscaper and I need landscaping,

I'm gonna come to you and I'm gonna

recommend everyone else comes to you

because we should look after our own.

So he was just a great find for us

because it's veterans supporting veterans.

He's just had basically his livelihood

stolen by the government really.

Um, so not only do I wanna help

him, but what he does is phenomenal.

So we started that working relationship

with that, and now what we kinda

say is that I don't think anybody…

If I've got money in the bank

and you need therapy, you get it.

Um, there is no-- I think the

longest is like five days.

I have a whole list of people

I can do for talking therapies,

holistic therapies a lot.

Like I am a bucket shaking organization,

but not one person takes a wage.

If anything, I think the VA owes me

about 20 grand over the last five years.

Um, we will not see someone struggle.

Like I will not have it.

But a big concept to that which developed

later on is, and I'm a key candidate

for that spurs, is I quickly realized

that we need to give more attention

to families and like spouses because I

know how many women's arrives-- lives

I probably ruined on my early recovery.

Do you know what I mean?

Um, and we even now have an opportunity

for your spouse to app- like make an

application for your aid through our

website, and then we just reach out

and go, "Oh, we've had an application

from here from an anonymous person,

you know, are you interested in

it?" And not one person that's been

nominated by a spouse has ever said,

"No, I'm not interested in it."

Um, so we do ultra BLS as one of our

main kind of mental health services,

but we have loads of stuff now.

We do like companion dogs and therapy

dogs, and we do a lot with, um,

veterans' families and the children,

um, trying to ensure we give back

to that community-based projects.

But also like

Norway.

So my Norway expedition, prime example,

like that's run by another veterans

organization, um, Cockleshell two two.

Tegs probably knows about them actually.

And, um, that's three grand.

I paid out me own pocket.

I'm not raising money for my charity

to pay for it, I don't agree with it.

Like, I wanna support other veterans doing

what they're doing, and this, this, these

guys are trying to create expeditions

which will change veterans' lives.

So I've gone, "Right, boom, there you go.

I'll pay for it." And then I'm gonna

use that for… We're using it, we've

got like a big six-month project for

Project Respite with the VA, and,

um, we're gonna use that as our first

fundraiser, and the money that I raise

from that will go towards our respite

project for veterans and the families.

But, you know, I'm just so inherently

behind as a community of people.

I do not understand why we do not

do more of you're a veteran, you

have a service, I am a fucking

veteran, and I need that service.

Yeah.

Why am I outsourcing to somebody else?

Because nobody else does it.

If you look at other communities,

like the Jewish community, without

anyone jumping on it, like, you

know, they look after each other.

Yeah.

Why do veterans not?

Because we don't.

Like the, veterans are the worst people

in the world to try and help because

I'll get someone ring me and go, "Mate,

I'm being made homeless." "Right, how

long have we got?" "Oh, today." "When

did you get told it?" "Four months

ago." "Where have you been, mate?

Where have you been for

the last four months?"

Do you know what I mean?

Like- It, it's ashamed of

asking for help, isn't it?

Mm. Because if you ask

for help, you're weak.

Yeah.

But, like we're just… And this

is the kind of mantra I'm pushing,

like- Yeah … we can do so much

as a community of people, but like

Veterans Army in itself, we're small.

But I mean, this year alone, I'm doing

a Norway expedition, and then we've

got another fundraiser on for St.

George's Day, and then m- I'm taking two

veterans that I'm personally getting fit

through my online coaching and personal

training business, and then we're gonna

cycle from Bolton Wanderers Stadium-

Yeah … to Ypres- Yeah … which is like

400 miles on a bike, raising money to

then build a respite project so veterans

and the families can get free holidays.

You know, so it's our like full

journey, veterans supporting

veterans and, and all that.

And I just think that, you

know, as a community of people,

not… It's cheesy, right?

But I believe in it historically.

Like to be a veteran is to be part

of the most elite brotherhood in the

world, and money cannot buy you access.

Like no amount of money in the world

can buy you access to the kind of

community of people that we are.

It's shared austerity, it's shared

hardships, and it's also shared

celebrations and shared like enjoyment.

But that lived experience

is what makes us who we are.

But then when we come out,

people try- lads forget and

they go all insular about it.

Yeah.

Or, "I'm gonna close the door

on that and I'm never gonna

speak about it again." Why?

Yeah.

Why?

What good's that gonna do you?

Yeah.

Guys who throw the medals

in the river and stuff.

Yeah.

Why?

Yeah.

Lit- literally, why?

And from your point of view,

why do you think, why do you

think guys do it, and girls?

I think some people try and

compartmentalize it by going,

"If I don't acknowledge that part

of my life, it never happened."

But as we know, that's not

why trauma works, and that's

not how mental health works.

Um, and you know what?

Like I don't know why anyone

would throw their medals away.

Like, and my own ancestors have done

it from the First and Second World War.

My great, my great-great-uncle Jim

threw all of his medals in the river.

Why?

"Well, because I had to ask

for them." What do you mean?

"Well, they didn't give them me direct.

I had to send off for them. If it meant

that much for them to give them me, they

would've given me when it mattered and I

wouldn't have to send off for them." So

why you send, why'd you send off for them?

'Cause that's my right.

But like one of my most fa- like favorite

sayings in the world like comes from

Napoleon Bonaparte, and, "Soldiers

will endure much for a bit of colored

ribbon." And how fucking true is that?

Yeah.

How true is that?

And, and, and that is the ethos that I

kind of base everything that Veterans

Army does, and me as an individual does.

Like, um, it's cheesy, but

again, I believe it to my core.

Like I swore an oath of allegiance to

Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs

and successors and officers set above

me, but I swore an oath of allegiance

to every person who put a uniform on.

Anyone who's got medals on their chest

or anyone who hasn't, I swore an oath

of allegiance to all those blokes.

When the shit hits the fan, if

they need help, I'll be there.

And I have n- like that oath is still

live for me, and it will always be, and

I'll never see a singular person struggle.

I mean, look at that veteran out

last year, ended up stealing my

business, but he was homeless living

in a van, and I, you know- Yeah

I would not see that happen.

And y- you know, like speaking to

you about it, you don't seem to

have a lot of resentment about it.

You know, it's fucking shit - Yeah

… it's happened, but, you know.

I think, yeah- Inshallah, innit?

Like, I, I can't control it.

Yeah.

It's been done.

Will I… I won't make no changes, mate.

Like, I'll see another homeless veteran

and I'll be fucking knees deep in trying

to help them 'cause it's who I am as an…

You know, like my, my grandad used to

bring us up, and I'm probably bor- born

in the wrong time, but he was always like,

you know, "A life spent in the servitude

of others is a life well spent." And

you know, every man should be aware of

his legacy, and we have such a legacy.

How far back does our legacy go?

How far back does your

regimental history go?

Do you know?

Like, we have been in the British

Army, we ruled an empire, and now

we don't even look after each other.

Yeah.

And I just, I will just

not be part of that.

Like, and yeah, it's bit me

in the ass a few times, you

know, and I've been caught out.

We've had people apply for funding

and stuff for like crisis funds for

mortgages and stuff, and they've been

really panicked, and I've cut out

protocol to then help them out and

then found out they're a Walt, and

I've had to put the money back into the

charity myself 'cause I don't believe

in they should have benefited from it.

But, you know, if there's a

veteran in need, like I'm there.

It's like, yeah.

It's just- Massive kudos to you.

You know, you, you, you sort of made it

your life and your purpose, hasn't it?

Like- Yeah … supporting

others, and I think, you know,

others can look to it, you know.

There's a guy then, so someone

that's screwed you over in business,

someone that's been a Walt and

taken money out of the charity, and

there's no like, there's no hatred,

there's no aggression there anymore.

It's a can't control it, we'll move on.

There's still people out

there that need help.

And it'd be easy to be screwed over and

be like, "I'm done helping people." Yeah.

"Sod that. I, I ain't doing that." Yeah.

And you're like, "Look, there's still a

lot of people out there that need help,"

and it's- I just think that if someone

had have thought this 40, 50 years ago,

how different would it have been for us?

Yeah.

How different, you know.

So I just like to think

now that- Do you know what?

Like the brothers that come after us

that, that read about what we did in

Afghanistan when they're wherever in

the year 2060 or whatever- Yeah … and

they read about the stuff that we were

doing and like what happened afterwards,

maybe there'll be a little snippet

in there about our community of bods.

We're just like, "Well, we're

gonna make sure we look after each

other when we leave." Absolutely.

And maybe when they get out, there's

already organizations and stuff in

place and whatever to make sure that

they're streamlined back into society

well- Yeah … and make sure that these

guys aren't on the streets homeless.

And not everyone on the streets

are homeless, and not all

veterans, but some do it by choice.

But- Yeah … I don't think it's

fucking right that one, one veteran

is homeless if they don't wanna be.

And, and that's the key with it.

If they don't wanna be.

Yeah.

And if someone wants the

help, the help's there- Yeah

let you be helped.

Yeah.

'Cause importantly as well, like

veterans that struggle, they, they need

to want the help as well, you know.

Like you said yourself,

you've done therapy.

Same here.

And yeah, I'm fine, I'm fixed.

And you're not, 'cause at the start

it was- Yeah … maybe it's part of

the process as well that they didn't

know how to treat veterans- Yeah

'cause someone that may have had

some horrible physical trauma from

a relationship, it's very different

to, again, a warfare scenario.

Yeah.

You know, you've got to treat them

differently because they are different.

Yeah.

And as horrible as that is, and I

think that's, yeah, it's so unique

that you've got you and you're

able to, to come along and offer an

alternative and it's, it's brilliant.

Yeah.

And, and with the Ultra BLS as well,

like guys don't actually have to talk

about what it is that's getting them.

Yeah.

You bring it up.

Yeah.

You bring the emotions up, and you

bring the thoughts and the feelings up.

You remember the smells or whatever,

but you don't have to verbalize that.

Yeah.

And like Rich sits behind you, and

you're sat in front, and you've got

his glasses on and LEDs and stuff, and

you, you track them with your eyes.

You can't use your head and stuff,

but you could be crying your eyes out.

He ain't gonna know, and he's

not gonna fucking care either.

But- Yeah … he ain't gonna know.

And I think for me, like when I

started my talking therapies, and

I've done a whole, a whole plethora

of things now, and I've even gone

away and like during COVID I went away

and learned how to be a counselor.

Like I'm a level four counselor.

I just self-educated myself because

I thought, you know, train your

mind and your body will follow.

Like I, to better combat

this, I need to understand it.

But it's like- My therapist, I

must've been in maybe 10 sessions,

and these were two-hour sessions

so, you know, maybe 20 hours.

And, um, I come in one day and she was

just like, "I'm really sorry. I'm gonna

have to refer you out." I was like, "What

do you mean?" She's like, "Uh, I'm, I'm

struggling with the things that you're

saying. I haven't- I'm quite new and I

haven't had this level of experience with

veterans." Because I went through the NHS.

Yeah.

Didn't go through a military charity-

Yeah … so also, like, I got the bite

in the ass from that where poor girl, you

know, she's starting her psychotherapist-

… then I fucking roll up.

She's like, "Oh, who's this guy?"

And start offloading on her, and

she's like, she was going, getting…

She was going, seeing her own

practitioner a- after me on a Friday.

And I'm like, "Oh, gee." And then,

but then I'm feeling guilty, like,

oh, survivor in this girl's life.

Yeah.

Like, do you know?

Is she not sleeping because

of what I'm telling her?

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, we try and we just build this

flawless thing where none of that happens.

Like, if we've got the money, we help

you there, and then if we've not got

the money, like, I will literally go

and generate a project or generate

some fundraising or go and run a

bloody 10K or some crap like that- Yeah

to, to get a pool of money together for

us to be able to impact that person.

And yeah, we help veterans across the

UK, predominantly in the northwest,

but that's just because I'm up there.

Yeah.

Um, so I spearhead a lot of projects

and, you know, I say this all the

time, if you can launch a project

in Bolton and people support it,

you can launch it anywhere 'cause

people in Bolton are tight as cramp.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So it goes up there and it works.

It'll work anywhere, and then I just

look for people that can click and

drop that model in their local AO.

Yeah.

And then, like, that's how we build.

And, you know, we do a lot of stuff

with wives and things like that.

I've got some specific just spouse stuff.

And then, I know after COVID we

were helping veterans' families,

like, rebuild businesses.

Like, like, as an example, a guy come to

me and his daughter lost her business.

She's a beautician.

She didn't have the capital to restart up.

"What do you need?" "I need

this, I need some…" Listen,

I'm not, I don't really know.

"I need some nails and some glue."

She's a nail technician, so whatever

comes with part and parcel of that.

Yeah.

So I was like, "Great." Met up with them.

Like, "So what do you need?"

"Da, da, da, da, da." "Right.

What do you really need though?

Like, that's a nice-to-have.

What do you really need?

If you operate for two weeks, are you

gonna create enough money then to be able

to operate for the rest of that month?"

"Yeah." "Cool.

So you don't need a month's worth

of stock, you need two weeks.

Right, now we're getting somewhere."

And we worked it all out, and then

worked out what it cost, and I went

away and ordered that stuff, and then

I give it her 'cause I don't, don't

trust no one giving her the money.

No.

No.

Um, we had another veteran come

through, he, and he was, he rung me.

Um, we do a lot with companion dogs

and therapy dogs and stuff, like,

close to my heart now, especially,

like, with the dog training stuff.

But he rung me and his daughter,

autistic daughter, uh, uh, paired

with a dog and it'd been hit by a car,

and she hadn't talked for two weeks.

She wouldn't go to school.

She wouldn't have dialogue

with her mother or father.

She was just gone.

He was like, "I've lost my

kid." Like, it's basically like

the, the car hit me daughter.

I was like, "Right, not having that."

Went and found an Andrex puppy Trained

it up for a few months, and then

went and delivered Dennis to her.

And now her and Dennis

go to school and that.

She's happy as like, do you know?

And it's stuff like that, like, and that,

that's who we should be as a community.

Yes.

Like, we, we are a community of people

that have achieved outstanding things

in the face of insurmountable odds, yet

try and get someone to sign up to donate

3.99 to help somebody else- Yeah … and

it's like teaching a duck bot Swan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Hard, isn't it?

Yeah.

It is.

Let's, um, let's sort of chat about,

you mentioned dogs and dog training.

It's been a part of you, you know,

when you pulled away from security

work- Yeah … you found a, quite a

big love for, for dogs, haven't you?

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, I big into the

gym and like I said, you know,

I went down a very negative se-

self-serving route for a couple of

years and did some competing on stage.

Did some obstacle course racing

as well, believe it or not.

Why I still had the running legs.

Quite liked it then, don't like it now.

Um, did some CrossFit as well,

and I, I was just constantly

chasing, um, I just need something.

I need a goal.

'Cause if I'm just sailing,

it's, it's not good for me that.

I need s- I need to be

constantly striving, constantly

pursuing something else.

Like, the Mrs hates it,

um, but supports it.

So I'd like started training, big, got

the gym, people wouldn't leave me alone.

And I know it's rude, and you should be

really honored when- Yeah … someone's

like in your gym, "Oh, mate, can you

just help me with this?" And I'm like,

"Dude, I'm under a bar here." Yeah.

"I need to train as well."

Mid bench, uh- So then I was like finding

myself going to other gyms to train.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like, arguably I'm trying

to build the best gym in Bolton-

Yeah … and I'm going to another

gym because Joe Bloggs won't leave

me alone when I'm on gym floor.

So anyway, like I was really struggling,

and I weren't getting the same

fulfillment I was getting from training.

I used to just train till I was physically

exhausted like couple of times a day,

trying, like launching myself into

movements like muscle ups and gymnastics.

But you know yourself, as you get

better, you start achieving these things.

Yeah.

So then when you achieve them,

you've not got that pursuit anymore.

And like, you know, I've got a video of

me back squatting like 210 at 90 kilos.

But fantastic, great, well done.

I watch the video and I think,

mate, you're so lucky that your hips

and legs did not just dislocate.

Like- Yeah … what an

idiot you were at the time.

But at the time it was

just something to chase.

Yeah.

I needed that weight, I

need that achievement.

So that really quickly started to go.

And, um, the girl I was with at the time,

we were for a long time, she was a dog

walker, and, uh, I've always liked dogs.

We've always been brought up with dogs.

My mum got her first dog when

I was like nine months old.

Never not had a dog.

Even out in Afghan, we used to foster,

don't, you know yourself, how many PB

dogs were there and stuff like that.

Yeah.

So I rescued this dog, and, um, German

Shepherd crossed Malamute, but it looked

like a wolf, and it were just like me.

He were like, with me, he had one

personality, but with everybody else,

mate, he were a different beast.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Mate, you

and me are the same." Yeah.

And, um, like I used to howl upstairs and

he'd be downstairs howling at the moon.

Do you know what I mean?

Like we were, we were two

weirdos together, me and Fen.

But, um, he'd, he'd whammed a couple of

dogs, and Bleakholt had basically said to

me, which is an animal, uh, rescue place,

they were like, "He needs a lot of work,

this dog, but he's on his last chance."

So I was doing a lot of work with

him, and I found a dog trainer up

in, uh, Manchester who had been into

IGP, IPO it was called at the time,

or Schutzhund for the old and bold.

Um, and he was like, he'd been

the worlds a lot of times, and

his dogs were like phenomenal.

Yeah.

And I was like, I turned up and I'm

watching these dogs do this stuff,

mate, and I was like, "Holy shit.

How have you got a dog to do that?"

I'm like, "Well, I've got this dog

here and it likes to try and kill other

dogs." So y- I started paying him and

he was helping me fix this dog, 'cause

obviously, like anything, I wanted

to, I wanted to make sure that, like

me and Fen were gonna be all right.

And, um- Randomly one day I tipped

up early and I seen him, and he

were doing some protection training

with a sleeve on, and I went, "Oh,

I've been bit by a dog before."

He said, "What, on a sleeve?" I said,

"No, in a full suit." "Have you?" And

when we were doing RSOI in Afghan, they

were like, "Who will put the full suit

on and try and outrun a Mali?" Yeah.

And if you get it to end,

you get a crate of booze.

Yeah.

And obviously, gobshite, like,

"Yeah, I'll run it." They're

like, "You can have a head start."

Just FYI, running in one of them

bite suits, you have no knees.

Your legs are locked out and

you run like… And I didn't

realize that at the time.

So you end up running like with your

legs out like some proper idiot.

Uh, honestly, I bet I got 20 paces, but,

um, I haven't got the video anymore.

I had it on an old v- But

this dog was just flawless.

So it was running, and it gained

on me so easily, but then it were

clever 'cause I was bigger than it.

It jumped, landed, and then used the

kinetic energy from the rebound to

relaunch, hit me in between my shoulders,

take me down with it stood on my back,

pulling on the helmet on my head.

And I'm like, it must've

been 30 kilos, no heavier.

I was like, "Holy shit," like

these dogs, these were Malis.

Like these Malis are well cool.

So anyway, I told him this

story and he's like, "Oh, okay.

Do you wanna put a sleeve on for me?"

And I was like, "Yeah." So he'd obviously

noticed like working dogs, bite training

especially, is a young man's game.

It's a lot of impact.

It's getting hit from

really horrible angles.

You get bit a lot, you

get hurt a lot, injuries.

I mean, last year alone I'd

done my lat twice and my hammy.

Um, it's, it, you know, it's impactful.

So he's obviously seen me as a younger

guy thinking, oh, he's not bothered by

it, he's done it, and he's kinda gone,

"I'll let you train your German Shepherd

if you let me train you with a sleeve."

And then he's like, "I also have

a dog club. You can bring the dog

to the club." And he just wanted

to del- develop me, and we, we got

a really good friendship going on.

But unfortunately for me, Mrs at

the time took Fenn out with, uh, her

friend and a couple of other dogs.

Her other dog was one of

these positive-only losers.

Can't use certain collars and

stuff, or they have like, get

really c- can't actually have an

opinion, you have to get hurt by it.

And, um, so my ex didn't put the

collar on the dog, and another dog

came over, and my dog killed it.

So then the police were like, "Right,

the dog's gotta go back to the

rescue or it's getting put to sleep."

So I was like, "Right, fucking

done with dogs, break your

heart. I'm done with it." Yeah.

And, um, I were as well.

Our heart broke, like he were me

good pal, and, um, I used to take

him into the gym and everything.

And then Alan had basically said

to me like You're really liking the

sport, you're really getting into it.

And I love the minutiae of it is

like, look, the obedience, like,

you know, dogs scaling walls and cl-

carrying dumbbells in their mouths

and- Yeah … like all the stuff we do

completely off lead, not even the bite

work, just the obedience is phenomenal.

Um, like puts Crufts to shame.

And I was like… He's like, "Why

don't you get a dog for sport?"

So I was like- Mm. "Okay." And my

missus is still a dog walker, so I'm

still gonna be around dogs anyway.

So I was like, "Right." So I imported

my first Malinois, um, from Belgium.

Uh, sorry, Austria.

But she's a Belgian Mal.

And, uh, we started our sporting career

from there, and I just, I loved it.

And we trained like four days a week.

Half day Tuesday, half day Thursday, all

day Saturday, all day Sunday for years.

Um, like we got into the sport.

Um, we started doing well,

we started qualifying.

Qualified for Team GB twice, won

British Nationals and stuff with her.

Um, and she saved my life.

Like we're late 2019,

tried to take my own life.

Um, and that dog, uh, I

should have brought it really.

The obedience on that dog is phenomenal.

Never goes upstairs, never a day

in her life would she dream of

putting a foot on the step unless

I've told her she can come upstairs.

Left the door downstairs one day, I left

the back door open and, um, my missus

at the time, who was the dog walker, she

was on holiday and I knew she was coming

back the next day and I thought, "Right,

I've fucking had enough of this now."

It's too hard being angry all the time.

So I took an overdose and,

um, fucking dog woke me up.

Like never has that dog come up…

Uh, three flights of stairs as well.

Don't even ask me how she knew.

Yeah.

Don't even ask me how.

The, the, the intuition was there

that she's come up the stairs when

she's never been upstairs before.

She knows she's not allowed.

She knows there's a punishment

factor to coming up them stairs

if she does what she's not told.

But I just woke up with me dog's

fucking tongue in me mouth.

And all over me face.

And then I was sick.

I don't know if that was 'cause

me dog's tongue was in me mouth

or whatever, but either either.

Um, yeah, and she saved me life and

we've been inseparable ever since.

Like whenever I have night

terrors now, she wakes me up.

Like I've been in, you know, um…

I've never had a night terror.

I've never experienced anything since

Iraq, any kind of horrible thing.

Like I lost my grandma, my granddad,

and my stepmom last year alone,

but I've never done anything on my

own 'cause I've always had the dog.

Like she has literally saved my life.

Like everything I've done

has been geared around her.

Like I had to get better at sport

because she was good at sport.

Like I had to choose this car 'cause

I need to transport a dog and she

needs to be able to sleep in it.

Do you know?

I have to get this kind of job 'cause I've

got the dog, and it just shaped my life.

So, you know, kind of 10 years, eight,

10 years in the sport- I had that running

last year with my gym and my business

partner and the veteran that I employed

and stuff, and at that period of time

I kind of really lost love with… Not

online coaching, 'cause I love coaching.

I love seeing people progress and

little tidbits or whatever that I can

give to them and get them on the app.

I, I love all that, but like it

actually being in the gym and in, in

gym personal training, I don't know.

There was just something about it as it

just lost its flavor for me, and I was

like, "What do I do now?" Like, "What

am I supposed to go on?" And obviously,

like I lost all the members of my family,

so I was like clearing houses out.

Got a little bit of inheritance, so I

didn't need to actually work immediately.

Um, I didn't wanna work as well

'cause I was like, "I'm in a

legal battle for my gym." Yeah.

And I was like, well, loss of

earnings and all that kind of stuff.

I don't just wanna show a court that I

can just go and do something else and

it'd be all right because, you know, these

fuckers have stolen my, uh, my, my gym.

Yeah.

Um, so I just had like a really weird

year last year of doing nothing, and

then Lou got cancer, and like, I was

like, "Oh, fucking hell." Like my

world just plummeted last year, and

the only thing to come out of it was

like, "What do you love?" I was like,

"I fucking love working dogs." And

like I, I have a club, so I work, I

work dogs every Saturday regardless.

Uh, and there'll be like 20 dogs.

I'll do 20 rounds on a

Saturday regardless, and

then one day during the week.

But I just come off and I love it.

I get home and I'm

knackered, but I love it.

I love seeing dogs develop.

I love seeing something or seeing

a problem in like the handler

or the dog, and I just seem to

be like, a bit like Rain Man.

You know, I can just see, "Oh, you're

just doing this with your hand, and

this is what's making your dog turn

too early." And then that person don't

do it, and it fixes that problem-

Yeah … and then the joy that they have.

So I was like, you know what?

Like I'm always gonna be in the gym game.

I'm always gonna coach people.

I spent too long in the industry, and

it's too important to me as a human

being and to my recovery and everyone

else's recovery to not be involved

in it, and I'm always gonna do that.

But if you do what you love, you

never work a day in your life, do you?

Yeah.

So I was like, do you know what?

I'm gonna get into, I'm gonna

get into dog training big time.

And um, I was training all of our

companion dogs and therapy dogs anywhere.

Training them, they would go

away, get cert- certified and

certificated, and then come back to us.

We would then home them with veterans.

So I was like, we can just

cut out the middleman here.

I can just do it all.

Um, so I, yeah, I launched my own

like proper dog training after

like 10 years of doing it for free,

um, towards the end of last year.

And, and it's been good.

Like it's dead cathartic for me.

I love it, and it's, it's

something new every day.

You don't know what's coming.

It's always a risk of getting

bitten, which is good, you know?

Yeah.

It keeps you on your

toes and keeps you sharp.

But yeah, I would definitely say like that

little Belgian Malinois saved my life and,

and shaped my life completely differently.

Like I- I'll be heartbroken when she goes.

Like, oh my God, I'll cry

like an absolute baby.

Missy's like, "You don't

cry about anything over me."

I'm like, "It was the dog."

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, uh, it's just… Yeah, it's so good.

I'm smiling like a girl now.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I just think- If you got dogs- It is

you know.

If you don't have dogs-

Yeah … you just, you get a dog.

Yeah.

Get a dog.

Honestly, I don't know why

people don't have them.

No.

I don't.

Like there's so… Like my dog would

literally give her life to save mine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I know sh- And like we

train for it anyway, you know?

Yeah.

People can say, "Well, you train."

Like my dog bites covert and stuff like

that, like she'd be killed up in here

now, but if someone come through t'door, I

could just send them, and she'd maul them.

Yeah.

And I'd go, "Let go," and

come back in, and she would.

Yeah.

If they carried on coming

in, I'd send her again.

She'd do it again.

And you know, I train a lot of

police dogs and some military

dogs as well, so that's cool.

Yeah.

Because then I, I went from my own

sport to now I do like bits of KNPV,

and I do bits of suit work, and then

I do stuff with per- people's personal

dogs and on their personal journeys,

and personal protection dogs and stuff.

And I'm just like, you know what?

Like yeah, this is my calling.

Because at some point AI is gonna

put online coaching out of business.

Like there's no way about it.

Like they, they just will, 'cause it's

so… I see it now already in gyms.

Like I'm walking around like, "Oh,

what app are you on your coaching app?"

Oh, "No, no, I got this workout from

ChatGPT." Or- Yeah … "ChatGPT's just

prepped my next 12-week diet." Yeah.

And you're like, yeah, you know, at some

point my service will be unserviceable.

No one will want it, and I

might as well build something

now that's, that's mine and

If I'm being honest, something

that no one can take away from me.

Yeah.

That's one thing I learned from

that whole gym thing last year,

that there's no point, like you

need something that is yours.

'Cause to invite other people

in, at some point you risk

that, um, you risk losing it.

And like, you know, I probably will

lose my half the gym, like they're

bankrupt and stuff now, and that

is a bitter pill to swallow, but

it won't stop me helping people.

But it would probably stop me

going into business with other

people, or at least, you know.

But yeah, learning curve,

but I'm not bitter about it.

There's no point being like…

And like I said before, I'm one of

those- It doesn't change anything.

The only, the only person that

loses out being bitter and

angry is yourself, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, it's not right, but- I just

try and be one of those people that if I

can ground everything back down so it'd

be my fault, I can be accepting of that.

Yeah.

Like today Why don't you check?

So Do you know what I mean?

Like- So we, we turned up 672 hours early.

Yeah.

Keen.

If you're not early, you're late.

We're- Five minutes before … you

know, big shout out to our

Fraser recording this, you know?

He was, he was- Yeah, in bed, sorry.

Sorry Fraser … he was in bed.

Lu- luckily, he, he never has days off

either, so we're quite lucky with that.

The stars aligned though.

It was meant to happen.

Yeah, yeah … it was meant.

And, um, you know, also, you

know, you traveled, like,

five hours to be here- Yeah

had to stay overnight.

You know, it's, we did everything

we can to make sure we got it done.

And I still come out wrong there.

And it's… Yeah You know.

The logistics behind being here-

Yeah … at the wrong day was just so

large actually, and I've achieved it.

But I just try and bring

everything back down to me.

Yeah.

And, and that's one thing that I put into,

like, I, I massage it down at my local

cadets, and, uh, one thing I put into

the kids is, like, about citizenship.

You know, like, you did 20 years in the

Roman military, and then you're a citizen.

Until that point, you weren't.

Yep.

And, like, you need to be about

something bigger than yourself.

You need to give back to your

community, and a big part of that is

to take ownership of your problems.

And even if it's not your problem, if

you can find a way of this has happened

because I've done this here, and if

you can solidify it into that little

point, it's easier to move on from.

Yeah.

It is easier to mo- Like, I would

still now be sat in my house in my

pants, probably a lot fatter than

I am, mourning because someone

had ch- nicked me business- Yeah

if I wasn't the person that I am.

Just going, "You know what?

Shouldn't have trusted him.

You took your eye off the ball 'cause

you were, you know, at the dementia

hospital all the time with your granddad.

You should have made sure that you

were switching your shifts and not

just doing 6:00 to 12:00 so that you

could have seen what were going on."

Yeah.

"But you didn't.

That's your problem.

We take responsibility from that.

This is the la- this is how it is now.

You play with the cards

you're dealt." Absolutely.

I was just about to ask you for

a piece of advice, but I think

you've just done it yourself.

Yeah.

So we'll take that I think

that would be it, yeah.

It's brilliant.

If… I think, yeah, if you can bring

everything back to the focal point of

anything that goes wrong, if you can

find out a way where you caused that,

it's much easier for you to be able

to accept it and move forward from it.

It's when things are completely

out of your control, especially for

veterans, you know, we don't like not

being in control of our surroundings

and all that kind of stuff and,

you know, fives and 20s and that.

If you can literally control everything

and go, "You know what? That's my

fault because of this. This is my fault

'cause next time I won't be in this

position 'cause I will not do that

again." And then like, you know, like

I said earlier, you've gotta fail.

If you don't fail, you don't learn.

Yeah.

But fail and fall forward.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Take something from that- Absolutely

… and, and move on with it, and,

and that's what I try and do, and

I try and not let it impact me.

And don't get me wrong, mate,

like, I'll sit at home some nights

and I'm like, "I could just kick

the door in and kill them." Yeah.

But what will it achieve?

Yeah.

'Cause then I'd be back in prison-

And it's important as well- … and

I'm still not working … to, to

touch on that, it's important to not

block those thoughts out as well.

Yeah.

That's when you start causing issues.

Yeah, yeah.

If you ignore them and you're

like, "I'll box that." Like, let-

you gotta let them negative- Yeah

bad thoughts be there.

Yeah.

You've gotta allow them to come in.

Yeah, but I, I'm not gonna do that.

No.

That's fucked you.

It's a massively important part.

Yeah.

We're not animals.

It's- We don't do that anymore.

No.

No.

Absolutely.

Right, man.

Thank you for- Thanks for

having me … having a 10-hour

round trip to, to be here.

Um, really appreciate it.

Thank you for your service.

Thank you for everything you do for

the veterans community and our…

Been a pleasure, sir. Cheers, mate.

Cheers.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.