>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I meet m a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today I'm speaking to Emma, who

is a Catholic artist and a mother of two. She's

speaking about her journey from a ticking along

Christian life to her deep encounter with

Catholicism, and alongside that, discovering her

vocation as an artist. In this conversation, she

speaks about what it was like to listen to God's

nudges, responding to God incidences and now using

her gifts to serve the church.

So, Emma, what was life like growing up with both

Anglican and Catholic influences?

>> Emma: It was interesting. So my dad, he and his family,

they grew up Catholic, but they were basically all

lapsed by the time I was born, so we still had

quite a lot of cultural influences and I went to a

Catholic school and things, but I was actually

baptised and brought up in the Church of England,

as most people are or were in this country. in the

90s, I think our family, we had a good mix. it was

definitely more Anglican and it was definitely

more of a cultural Christianity than an

evangelical, so sort of experience.

>> Julia: So what did faith mean to you as a young person

then?

>> Emma: By young person, do you mean like a teenager or.

>> Julia: Yeah,

>> Emma: So, I think as a teenager, that was when I really

started to explore my own faith, and take that

faith that my parents had brought me up in and

given to me and make it my own. So we had a youth

group at our church, and I was quite involved with

that. We went to Soul Survivor and, you know, all

the usual things that the youth groups do, and it

was exciting and I felt like I was sort of getting

to know Jesus as my own sort of relationship with

him instead of my parents. and then when I went to

uni in 2011, I joined the Christian Union. I was

actually, by that point, I Had fallen away a bit

and it was, a friend who I met on my course who

was a Christian, and she invited me along and it

just went from there, really. CU was. It was

really good. We met lots of other Christians, lots

of different denominations. so there weren't many

Catholics there because they went to the Cath Soc.

But, yeah, it was really good. I met my husband

there, and it just was quite a sort of uneventful

walk with Jesus. Yeah, it was just sort of

trundling along and I was reading my Bible, I was

praying, and that was it, really. I mean, there

wasn't any. It was just like a normal experience,

really.

>> Julia: How did meeting your husband transform your faith?

>> Emma: So. Oh, that's a good question. I was still

Anglican at this point, and, through. Probably

more towards the low end of it. So the Low Church

Evangelical. Yeah, that sort of side. And my

husband, he had come to uni after a gap year. He'd

volunteered with Latin Link, which is a Christian

charity, again, Evangelical. They sort of send

volunteer groups to South America. And he'd come

back from. He went to Ecuador and he'd seen the

Catholicism there. And maybe not the best part of

it, he saw, like, it, mixed with folk practise,

practises and things like that. And that was his.

That was his idea of Catholicism. It was. He never

interacted with the faith beyond that. And he was

brought up in the Church of England as well, but

he was even more Low Church than I was. So he

definitely brought. When I first met him. So we. I

met him through a house group and I remember

thinking, what's a house group? So it's. It's like

a small group where, you're put together with

about eight other people and you take it in turns

to go around each other's houses and study the

Bible usually and pray. I mean, one semester would

be usually one book of the Bible. So we did Romans

and Colossians, I think, that year. And then we'd

cook dinner and then we'd pray after Bible study.

and I just remember almost being slightly annoyed

by him, to be honest, because, he had all these

good experiences and he seemed so much more well

versed and like in a closer relationship with God

than I was. And I thought, well, when I got to

know him a bit more and didn't find him annoying,

I thought, oh, well, you know, I could learn so

much from him. And I think we have. I think we've

learned a lot from each other, actually. In

different ways.

>> Julia: So when you met him, you were studying pharmacy?

What made you decide to study pharmacy?

>> Emma: well, I was. I was good at science and it was just

coming out of the credit crunch, so the big

recession, at the end of the 2000s, I suppose it

was. and my parents were very keen that I did

something with a job at the end of it. I didn't

want to do medicine. Veterinary I sort of wanted

to do, but then just decided that I just wasn't

committed enough. So pharmacy it was. I thought it

would be like a mixture between Harry Potter and

chemistry and maybe a bit of people interaction.

Yeah. And I was 17 when I applied, so really

young. I don't know if it was the right thing to

do, but I think it was, in a way, even though I'm

not practising as much as I was. Yeah.

>> Julia: What do you mean by you weren't sure if it was the

right thing to have done?

>> Emma: Well, I think it was the second lecture out of the

whole year, so I was a fresher and the lectures

had just started and it was his second lecture,

pharmacy practise. And I just remember thinking to

myself, wow, this is not what I thought it was

going to be. I don't know if I've made the right

choice. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do

this. I thought it was going to be a lot more

sciencey than it actually ended up being. and I

really wasn't prepared for the reality of the job

that I was training to do. So. And I just remember

thinking, oh, wow, this is really boring. Like all

of the law and things. I had no idea. I should

have researched it better parts were really good

and I do enjoy being a pharmacist. But, yeah, I do

remember feeling a bit lost, actually, at the

beginning.

>> Julia: And did you find your way in it? And was good part

of that?

>> Emma: I did find my way. So I found a really good group

of friends. it was a mixture of a girl, the girl I

spoke about a few minutes ago, the Christian,

Winnie. She was in my tutor group. and then we had

another two girls as well and we got on really

well and we're still really good friends now and

meet each other with our kids and I think looking

back, that was God's way of giving me a gateway

back in. Because when I went to uni, when I first

started, I'd basically fallen away from the

church, as a universal church, I wasn't really

that bothered about going to church and I'd just

been given all this freedom. I came from quite a

strict upbringing and then all of a sudden it was

like, oh, wow, I can do whatever I want. And I

think actually, God, putting Winnie in my path was

his little way of providing a bit of steering for

me and, making sure that I didn't completely go

off the rails or just get even more lost. Because

without her, I don't think. I don't think I would

have gone back when I did, really. Yeah.

>> Julia: I think it is quite a common experience for people

that once they get that freedom of university,

where Mum and Dad aren't telling them to go to

church or like to pray, et cetera,

>> Julia: that they do, you think, oh, I've got freedom.

>> Julia: I don't need to go and then step away during that

time as well.

>> Emma: Yeah, yeah, I think it is quite common.

>> Julia: Yeah.

Can you tell us about your trip to Catalonia and

what did you experience there?

>> Emma: Oh, yeah. So Kefalonia, we went there. Oh, 2018, I

think it was, just. It was lovely. It was in

October. it's a Greek island. If people aren't

aware of what Keflonia is and where it is in the

world, it was the most beautiful place I've ever

been to, I think, think. And they're all Greek

Orthodox over there, or most. Most people are. So

they had all these beautiful churches, beautiful

landscapes. The sea was like a turquoise colour.

And, it was just such a lovely time. And I

remember being drawn to the beauty of these

massive, ornate churches with mosaics and icons

and all of that, and thinking, wow, like, that's

such a. Such a nice historical base for, like,

people going, like members of the Orthodox Church.

Like, they have all this history. Anyway, then in

the middle of the holiday, we visited the only

Catholic church on the island and there was this

really old icon in there. It was really. The

church was really bare compared to the rest of the

other Orthodox churches. It was just bare walls,

most of it. But they had this icon of Mary and

Jesus. sort of looked a bit like Our lady of

Perpetual Help, that type of composition. And it

had been rescued from the sea. That, was the story

anyway. And something about me just drew me in to

it. And after that interaction, it was like God

interacted with me through this icon. I hadn't

really had any great sort of massive experiences

with icons before. They weren't part of my faith

practise. so he drew me into this icon and then I

just had this. This compulsion almost to learn as

much as I could about the history of the church.

And I remember sitting out on our balcony in the

apartment we were renting, sort of looking on my

phone about all different things, like the church

fathers and how had I not heard of these people

before and all of this. And, yeah, it was like God

just gave me this big nudge.

>> Julia: So was it difficult at first to follow that nudge?

>> Emma: from an intellectual point of view, it wasn't,

because I was just so hungry for the knowledge.

But then I started talking to my husband about it,

just like slipping in bits and bobs here and

there. And I could tell that he wasn't very

receptive to it. And, I said I was. After a month

or so, I said that I was quite interested in

finding out more and that I'd emailed the local

Catholic parish. And he was like, oh, really?

Like, I can't believe that you would feel that way

from what he had experienced. Like, in his eyes,

Catholics weren't Christians. They were something

else. They were like a mix of Christianity and, I

don't know, folk craft. Like, I don't know, you're

not witchcraft, but you know what I mean?

Superstition, in his eyes, which I think when he'd

only seen a very. The very, very tip of it, maybe

that's what some people would think. And it got to

the point where I said to God in prayer, like, I

don't want to do this unless you really want me

to. Or, you're going to bring Dan, my husband,

with me and you're going to change his heart,

because I just can't do it. It's too difficult.

And the parish hadn't got back to me, so I just

left it. And, I left it for two years without

doing anything.

>> Julia: That's a long time to not do anything in. If

you're feeling that nudge, what happened that made

you do something about it, like, two years later?

>> Emma: Those two years, they were actually really

difficult for me in terms of it wasn't quite a

spiritual desert, but I was just feeling really

unfulfilled with all these questions. And the

church, we had this lovely Anglican parish. It was

wonderful. We had house groups and all sorts of

things, and we really liked the vicar there. but

those deep down, I just wasn't. I did not feel in

my heart that it was enough, in a way, which

sounds really, like, cocky, but it's not meant to

sound that way. There was something nudging and

tugging still. And actually, what the two years.

So exactly two years after a friend at the time,

said that she'd prayed for me. She was Catholic.

she said that she prayed for me at worship night.

And then literally the next day. I couldn't

believe it because I thought, oh, that's really

nice, thank you. She didn't really know what was

going on at the time. Like, the amount of turmoil

that was going inside my head. And anyway, the

very next day, I got an email from the Catholic

priest in our town from, like, he's. I think he

just started at the church and he must have been

going through emails. Anyway, I got this email and

it was about confirmation classes. And I replied

to him and said, please, can I meet with you? I

just, I need to talk to someone about these things

that have been happening. So lots of God

incidences had been starting to happen. Like,

people have been taught. And, these people didn't

know either what was going on. So just lots of

things like the email and people had been. It,

come up in conversation quite a lot and can't

remember some of the others, but it was this sort

of steady sort of flow, of things that were a bit

odd.

>> Julia: Yeah, we talked about it on the podcast before,

about how sometimes is more like little moments

where, like, God is, like, clicking things into

place rather than like a big boom moment.

What was it like when you did finally get to have

that conversation, meeting the priest?

>> Emma: It was a big relief, actually, more than anything,

because I had said to him, are all of these things

that I think are from God, Are they actually. Do

you think they're actually from God? Are they the

Holy Spirit? Or is it just me making things up in

my head, like, making connections between things

that aren't, there. And he said that he thought it

was from the Holy Spirit, from what I told him.

And he just had this really calm demeanour as

well. It just, I don't know, it made the pieces

click into place a bit more. That didn't mean that

I wasn't worried about talking to my husband. I

mean, at this point, we had our first child as

well, so our lives had moved on quite a bit. He

knew that I had gone to meet the priest. So, I

think I was still a bit nervous about that. But

all in all, I was relieved that actually something

might be happening. And maybe it was just easier

to not ignore God for two years and listen to what

he had to say. Yeah, because it was just getting

harder and harder.

>> Julia: I think that's a lesson for us all. Don't try and

ignore God because it's he doesn't make it easy

for you to do it.

>> Emma: It's like Jonah and the Fish.

>> Julia: What's it like being a Catholic now then?

>> Emma: Now it's very, I mean, from a family point of

view, we all go to the same church, so God did

change my husband's heart. He's not a Catholic

yet, but he's happy to come to mass with us. He

feels, I think, fairly fulfilled at church. We

have lovely community in our church. It's

different from when I first started because, I

don't have just a little baby anymore. You can

just sit, sit in a push chair. I have a five year

old and then a toddler. So it's, it's a bit crazy,

but it's. Things have levelled out. When I first

joined the church, it was all a bit turbulent

maybe still, I wasn't quite sure. It was like.

Even though I'd thought I'd made my faith my own

as a teenager and a young person, it was like I

was sort of having to do that again in this new

tradition. Like, I felt completely new.

>> Julia: And were there like parts of Catholic teaching

that was harder to accept or took time to like

process what that meant?

>> Emma: Yes, there were, I would say there were two, two

quite different parts. so from, from a theological

point of view, I struggled a the Immaculate

Conception and the Assumption of Mary just because

it was so different to what I had been brought up

with. Even though I had that Catholic influence

and I did, like intellectually, I wrestled with

that quite a lot. And it took my priest telling me

that sometimes you do just have to trust God and

put your faith in Him. And that really did help

with that. because as humans we're never going to

fully understand all of these things. And looking

at it through a lens of God's love also helped

because I think you can think, oh well, he didn't

have to do that like that. You know, Mary being

immaculately conceived, she didn't have to be for

Jesus to come into the world. But then if you look

at it through a lens of God's divine love, then it

all starts to make sense because of course he'd

want Mary to be sinless, to birth Jesus into the

world anyway. That was from an intellectual,

theological point of view that was probably the

most difficult part. But also from just more of a

pastoral point of view. Things like, contraception

with a non Catholic husband. That was quite tricky

for us to navigate. With my job as a pharmacist,

we give out the morning after pill. I wasn't

giving it out at that point, but that sort of just

cemented it for me that that was not something

that I would be doing and that can cause not

problems, but it has its challenges as well, like

in the professional sphere. So, yeah, those things

were probably the most tricky.

So how did.

>> Julia: Because you mentioned pharmacy and now you're

doing lots of illustrations for different Catholic

organisations. So how did that come about?

>> Emma: Well, so I'd always been arty and, I really liked

art as a child I did art GCSE art A level and I'd

sort, ah. I kept it up through my studies and my

professional job. I was doing things like wedding

invitation designs and cards and things like that.

And I think in my head I'd always really wanted

to, to fall back on that. Like I'd always really

hoped and wished that I'd be able to have a

creative. Maybe not a career but a creative outlet

and not have to do pharmacy full time for the rest

of my working life. And anyway, I'd quit my job as

a hospital pharmacist when we found out we were

expecting our first child because it just. The

pace fit just wasn't going to. And it was Covid at

the time and it was just. It was really difficult.

So I started doing more art and it just sort of

went from there. I didn't set out to be like a

Christian artist that then it just sort of

happened. It was like God again just nudged me in

that direction. and it felt really. It almost

feels. So when I create something, it feels almost

like a prayer and that. It just felt so natural to

be doing it and then things. I reached out to

CAFOD after. Was it after? No, it was just before

I was confirmed. So it was Lent 2022 and I got

this. I can't even remember how I found the email

address but I found this email address for the art

director there and emailed him telling him a bit

about myself and that I'd love to do some work

with them and they said yes and it was just a

colouring sheet and then it just went from there

and then I started selling a few things and I got

commissioned to do a children's book and it. It's

just gone from there really. and I've been working

with CAFOD a lot, for the past few years and it's

been absolutely amazing. They're great to work

with, they're a lovely organisation and yes, some,

other organisations and publishers and things like

that and it's just been so. I Think it's been

fruitful for me and fruitful for others. And I

just hope that this gift that God has given me is

just fruitful for anyone who encounters it. That's

the whole point of it. I think it kind of sounds

like

>> Julia: it started off as a side project and now has moved

into your vocational calling.

>> Emma: Yeah, yeah. Alongside motherhood. So I've always

fitted it in alongside being a mum, which can be

quite tricky. But I think the two, the two work

hand in hand because I don't think I'd be making

the art, that I'm making without being a mother

and I think vice versa as well. Like, it's really

good to have that, that extra calling to work with

the motherhood as well. Yeah.

>> Julia: So what does it mean to you to share the gospel

through your art?

>> Emma: I mean, it's such, it's a privilege really. It's,

it's just. I don't know, it's amazing because I

feel like God is working through, through the art

and I think the fact that it's religious and faith

based art, really, it adds such a, an extra

element to it, an extra dimension. It's also quite

a responsibility. Sometimes when I think about it,

I think, oh, like, is this how it's meant to look?

Like, am I portraying everything? Right? Is this

actually going to, like, people going to feel

something or is God going to speak to people

through this? Yeah. I mean, I will say that when I

make the artwork, a lot of the time I feel like

it's not just me doing it, it's also God. And like

I said before, it's a bit like a prayer, but in

the form of art. Yeah. Like instead of working,

maybe you know how your actions can be prayers.

It's very much like that.

>> Julia: I think I kind of get that because I am not an

artist at all. I wouldn't say that. But, when I've

been on retreats at like St. Binos and places and

I've just had times where you can go into the art

room and do some creative stuff, it feels kind of

like the art you're drawing is not coming from

you, it's being inspired. Yeah. And just a

reflection of where I am in my prayer life as

well.

>> Emma: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. and of course I think the

other side of that can be if you're feeling quite

far from God, sometimes that, if, if you do that

for a living, like sacred art, it can be. That can

present as challenges sometimes. But yeah, it's, I

mean, it's Amazing, really. I can't believe that

I'm doing this.

>> Julia: Do you have any recommendations for anyone who's

like, feeling a bit far from God, but wants to

kind of enter into prayer through art?

>> Emma: I would say don't be afraid of just starting. I

know that's a really common piece of advice, but

sometimes the most difficult part of it can

actually be one coming into prayer with God,

especially after a break sometimes that can be

quite intimidating. And also the art, again,

especially if you're a perfectionist, it can be

intimidating just to start. Put penned paper or

brushed paper, I would say. I don't know. It's.

Yeah, just, just start anything. It doesn't have

to look pretty, doesn't even have to be. I, say if

you're looking at a Bible verse, it doesn't even

have to be related to the Bible verse. It can just

be whatever pops into your head. And sometimes it,

it can be nice to do it with other people. But

yeah, I would say just don't put pressure on

yourself for it to look a certain way. Because

usually even in your head, if you think it's going

to look a certain way, then usually at the end of

it, it won't look that way. Which is a bit like

what God does with us.

>> Julia: Yes, that. I was thinking of some artworks where

I've imagined what it's going to look like and at

the end not being very happy with it. But it's

been actually the ones where I've started with no

idea that have ended up probably on my walls.

>> Emma: Yeah, yeah.

>> Julia: So how has your journey helped you to become more

fully yourself?

>> Emma: I think it's definitely from a faith point of

view. I definitely feel a lot more rooted. I've

had to. Not trial and error, but it's when you go

into something new. So for me, the Catholic faith,

it, it wasn't quite new, but a lot of the parts of

it were new. And it makes, as an adult, it makes

you re evaluate what you think you know and what

you think you believe. and I think making this

commitment, like quite a big outward and inward

commitment to join the Catholic Church, it made me

think, okay, do I believe this and why do I

believe this? Even more so than when I was a

teenager.

>> Julia: So what advice would you give to someone who's

having those God incidences that you mentioned and

how do you encourage them to listen to those?

>> Emma: Yeah, so definitely praying with it helps. And

also the thing that helped the most, especially if

you're someone who second guesses your own Thought

I tend to second guess myself a lot. It's just the

type of person I am, seeking someone who is wiser

than you and actually talking to them about it. So

it could be a priest or another person of faith.

It could be a, sister, someone like that. Anyone

really who you trust to talk to about it. It's

really helped if you're Catholic confession, if

you have a priest who's good at giving counsel.

Yeah, I definitely advise just take it to someone

who you trust who's a bit wiser than you.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you'd known earlier about your

calling and creativity and faith?

>> Emma: So I wish I'd known that there's room at the table

for everyone. That there's no concrete route to

God or to creating. there's no concrete route of

prayer, of meeting with God, of creating art. And

yeah, it's really important if you're creating

Catholic or Christian art on a whole, you have to

invite God in, otherwise it's not going to bear

the fruit that you want it to bear.

>> Julia: And what are you grateful for?

>> Emma: Well, today I'm grateful for my family, which is

probably an answer you get a lot. But my, my

little boy turned five yesterday and I can't

believe it. And it's just been a wonderful week

and it's such a beautiful thing to go through life

with them.

>> Julia: Thank you for joining us.

>> Emma: Oh, thank you for inviting me.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this conversation is going to stay with me

because Emma reminded me how God will use the

right moment for you to meet him deeper. For Emma,

that took two years for the priest to respond to

her email. I know I've had similar moments like

that and it's amazing how God works in all of our

lives. How about you? We'd love to hear how Emma's

story resonated with you. And why not also tell us

if you're facing an experience you wish you knew

how to look at differently, it might just be

something we can help with. You can find out more

about this and other themes at thinkingfaith.org.

Thank you again for listening. I hope you'll join

me again next time on Things I Wish I Knew.